The Ringer NBA Show - Emergency NBA Draft Lottery Pod | The Ringer NBA Show

Episode Date: May 15, 2019

The New Orleans Pelicans win the 2019 NBA draft lottery, presumably landing superstar prospect Zion Williamson (5:26), while multiple teams find themselves in more or less fortunate draft positions than expected (16:20). Plus: Kevin O’Connor reports his takeaways from the lottery drawing in Chicago (39:07). Hosts: Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier Guests: Jason Concepcion, Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer podcast network. Before you get to the show, make sure you check out the ringer.com for our extensive NBA playoff coverage leading up to the NBA finals. Also look out for a 2019 NBA draft guide, which now features 50 of Kevin O'Connor's scouting reports. The draft guide has a first round mock draft, big board rankings from our draft experts like Jonathan Charks and Danny Chow, and much more to come leading up to the draft itself on June 20th. Once again, check out the Ringer's 2019 NBA draft guide. and all of our NBA coverage over on the ringer.com. And welcome to a special emergency edition of the Ringer NBA show. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am joined by two very special guests. New Orleans own. The son of jazz, Justin Barrier. Sort of. No. And our buddy, in mourning, Jason Concepcion. It's actually fine. I feel fine.

You felt fine before because you knew you were going to get him. Yeah. And now you didn't get him. That's fine. Zion Williamson will be going to the New Orleans Pelicans who had a 6% chance of winning the NBA draft lottery. The New York Knicks had a 14% chance. They were in the final four.

They wind up with a third pick. So enjoy Cam Reddish. Sure, sure, sure. Jason, the floor is yours. Tell me how you're feeling. Well, when the fifth and fourth picks dropped, and I didn't see a Knicks card, my bloodstream turned into cocaine,

and I had a taste of blood in my mouth at that point. And I believe I began climbing the side of the studio. And I said, don't do that. We need you. Then I saw them come out of three, and that's fine. We're getting KD. I feel good. Honestly, it's fine.

KD probably would have been like trade that pick anyway because I want to get AD or whatever. And that brings me to what I want to say, which is this is the most rigged outcome of them all. 6%. And everybody knows AD is leaving. And if he leaves, the franchise will just sink into the literal ground. It will fill with swamp by you water and it will be a home. for crocodiles and feral boiconstrictors. What makes them feral?

Are there domesticated barricters? And that will be it. That will be it for the New Orleans Pelicans. And Adam Silver saw this and heard the pleas of the ownership group and was like, okay, we'll hook it up. We'll get you his eye on. And then when AD goes, this will soften the blow. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I'm saying that's what happened.

Many people are saying that. Many people are saying that, and I believe it. It's rigged. That's it. That's all I have to say. Okay. I mean, listen, again, we're getting KD. I feel good.

What happens if you don't get KD? Well, that's tough. At the same time, that would be extremely, extremely tough. At that point, I will feel betrayed by many, many people. I'd start with Rich Kleinman, and I'd move down. I'd just go several rungs down until I'm at, like, literally my parents and stuff. But there would still be a silver line. In that, they'd have financial flexibility, some legitimately okay pieces.

And Mitch and Kevin Knox is a great piece. Everybody out there who hasn't watched the NBA in a little bit, you might flip him for, you know, a couple of picks. A solid rookie season. A couple picks. Solid rookie season if you read Shams's tweet from today. So they'd have flexibility and, you know, you could spin up as long as you're smart about it at a decent clip from that position. It's not the worst. At least you're not capped out with, like, terrible guys.

I love your optimism. Thank you very much. Yeah. It's good that they ended up at three and not two because Morant probably wouldn't want to play with Kyrie. So now you have R.J. on the wing instead. And now you don't have to deal with the Lakers getting it, too. That's the other silver lining here.

Well, that was the fun thing is Bill absolutely losing his shit as it appeared that the Lakers were in it. I thought he was going to have a stroke. Honestly, he was like shuffling through papers. I don't even know what staty was looking for. During our live Twitter show, Bill and Ryan Rissilo. And Bill, when the Lakers vaulted into the top four, I think. thought Bill was going to have a heart attack. It's insane, but it is particularly cruel that they ended up at four in a three-player draft draft draft

draft draft draft draft drafts. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Because I was asking you guys before, who's the fourth best player? And me and Isaac Lee were able to come up with two guys. One of whom we weren't sure of his last game. Right, exactly. We'll all get really, we'll become draft experts over the next month.

Everybody's going to be like, there's this Georgian guy. Everybody. That's why I'm glad, like, five would have been horrible. Like, that's like, I don't even know. Like, bowl, like, who is out there, you know? So I feel good. I feel fine. Like it was intense.

Is it almost a relief to have this debut over? Yes. Because I've been through this. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes. I know what this is like. There's been so many Sixers lotteries.

I can't even count them. We've won some. We've lost them. We've won some when we've lost them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm.

I just think it's a nerve-wracking experience. Yeah. My body can't take this much energy. Yeah. There is a lot of Nitro there before the lottery started. All right, Jason. Thank you so much for joining us, man. You need to take off.

want to sit in on the New Orleans celebration. Thanks for having me. Now, I can't even say the word in New Orleans. Okay. Thank you. We'll play you out. This is your funeral procession. Thank you so much to Jason Katsapseo on the Ringer's biggest Knicks fan for joining us here on the Ringer NBA show.

All right, let's kind of set the table here a little bit. So we've got our draft order for the 2019 NBA draft. The New Orleans Pelicans get the number one pick. They had a 6% chance going into this draft lottery, landing that pick. David Griffin, their new executive vice president, the basketball czar over there, newly installed, taking over for the long-serving Del Demps.

They've got the Anthony Davis situation to deal with. Now they come at this from a position of so much increased leverage. It's the most leverage they could possibly hope to come out of tonight with. And not for nothing, they get the most sought-after, coveted, hyped draft prospect since Anthony Davis, who is also still on the New Orleans Pelicans. Pretty good.

You've covered the New Orleans Pelicans. You've lived in New Orleans. You know the fan base. You know the organization. I'm wearing a Defed New Orleans T-shirt. Talk to me a little bit about what landing this pick means for this franchise right now. Well, you say perhaps they have leverage.

I would counter and say perhaps they have the next dynasty in the NBA. Oh, my God. I think this is on the table now. What we talked about for months was how Anthony Davis is such an impressionable guy. He will go with whichever way. the wind is blowing, who is in his ear last. And now perhaps he's looking around and he's seeing Drew Holiday

quietly asserting himself as one of the best guards in the NBA. And as you just mentioned, the best prospect he could possibly hope for since himself. And the one thing constantly standing in his way throughout his tenure was he did not want to play true center. Even at his best,

he had a guy like Nicola Murtich who would guard bigger guys in the playoffs guys like Yusuf Nurkich. Well, Zion is a big boy. He's a thick guy. And so you have almost like the perfect, versatile front court mate to go with you. So if they can get over whatever toxic relationship they had

throughout the end of this season, and David Griffin, a guy who's worked with Rich Paul pretty closely before in Cleveland, I think they have the potential to flip this around, keep him, and all of a sudden they are the team in the Capbird seat just from a roster standpoint, not from a trade field.

Tell me a little bit about what they're going into this season in terms of their books and in terms of their cap and in terms of who they could hope. Because now all of a sudden also, one thing that we've never really said about New Orleans is they become a free agent destination. If they can fortify Davis, if they can say, okay, like this is obviously

what we're going to be for the next eight to ten years. Come do this here. You'll be a legend forever if you do that. So what are they looking at cap-wise? And then also, if they need to or feel like they want to trade Davis, What could this team be here? So my back of the envelope kind of calculation here is that they have 24 million available. If they renounce everybody, that means Julius Randall who has an option for this next season.

I think it's a teamer player option. So that becomes a little bit complicated. You'd presume considering how successful he was on a statistical level and he's 24, he would want to cash that in for something long term instead of just like going for that free money. And there's just so much money available this summer. That is the complication. the one good thing that they did last year was they didn't panic

and trade Solomon Hill as a negative asset. Now they have an expiring contract of 13 million. You might be the first person on the planet to have said that sentence. So congratulations. I mean, he has hurt them in so many ways since they signed that contract

since they'll demps convinced himself that his pre-draft analysis of Solomon Hill was way better than anybody else. He was going to bring him into the system and he was going to be the wing that they needed. Now he is an asset where you could

maybe dump a future pick and get that money back. So all of a sudden, it's possible that they can get max space. Okay. And now you're looking at, like, we talked before the show, maybe Tobias Harris is a guy who would be interesting. I mean, I especially wanted to discuss here what the lottery results do for not necessarily the draft, which I think is a confusing draft that I think outside of number one, there's a possibility for a lot of movement. But what it means for this free agency class and what it means for maybe not your

to Rants and Kauai's, but possibly that Tobias Middleton, Horford, Gassal level of a free agent. Well, I mean, a guy that they kicked around New Orleans right before he got traded to Philadelphia was Jimmy Butler. I think he would make a lot of sense on that roster. It really depends on what the timeline looks like. I am not as convinced that Zion will be just a transcendent player from the jump, especially if he's playing with guys like Davis and Drew Holiday.

He's more third to eat. And if they get a guy like Jimmy, he's fourth in line. So I do wonder about that, like how much you can count on him for next season. But Jimmy fits right there with Drew and you just get like a pass first point guard. And that's your five. Yeah. That's pretty good. I find it hard to believe that Jimmy would leave Philly for anywhere but New York or Los Angeles.

That seems to be the one consistent piece of the rumor mill around him was that it's either going to be stay for the money in the years or go to the biggest market possible. Yeah. But I do think somebody like Tobias Harris. And I think that this puts, if they're able to keep Davis, this vaults New Orleans past Denver as a destination, past Utah as a destination, past Minnesota as a destination. In terms of Western Conference teams, outside of that, either the major market, L.A. teams, Golden State, a couple of other Houston, whatever other places, you have to consider New Orleans as one of your prime options. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. And I think outside of New Orleans, a lot of the free agent pieces just stayed the same.

I think what it did is it probably warped the trade market a little bit. If Davis is intent on getting out of there, he has played his last game. He wore the T-shirt that was laid out for him, and that's his last statement he's going to make there. The Lakers obviously got way more interesting now that they have the fourth pick in the draft. So before we were wondering if they had the assets, given Brandon Ingram's questions going into next season because of this blood clot issue, whether or not Lanzibal could ever stay healthy, whether or not Kuzma was a good enough prospect, whether or not some of those other guys were together

a good enough package to get Davis. Well, now all of a sudden they have the number four pick they can throw in there, and that makes it a lot more interesting. So you also have to worry for the same reasons whether or not the Knicks all of a sudden, if that's interesting enough. So having that third pick,

can they turn the third pick, knocks some of these other guys, Nilakina, whoever, whoever the Pelicans might want, all of a sudden, would you be willing to trade, Dave is there? Right. So let's start talking about possible permutations of this, right? So you obviously had Justin's dynasty in the making with Drew, Zion, AD, and a fourth guy, be it a Tobias Harris, be it free agency, be whoever you want to say.

Boston didn't have the lottery they were hoping to have. So immediately we're going to start talking about them because I don't think they're going to run back that team. that they had last year, if you're New Orleans and you don't get a guarantee from Davis, would you rather do a year of uncertainty with Davis or get Tatum and smart and player X and some picks maybe from Boston and start over and have everything sort of timed around Zion's acceleration? I think if Davis is willing to sign an extension this summer, which he'll be eligible to do, He still has the Supermax on the table, and that's another big factor that we need to put in here.

I think anyone we would say, if the situation is good enough, I would like just an absurd amount of money that only this team can give you. If he declines, I think one of the things we should talk about just like they could drag this out into the trade deadline now

because they are in a position where they don't need to make this move immediately. Right. I do wonder, is the Celtics package still the best? I think that the Celtics postseason didn't do wonders for the value of that package.

But you can make an argument about, and this is the whole thing that the Knicks guys were talking about, all of our Knicks friends like Jason and Sean, everybody at the company, when that Sean's report came out that Zion could be flipped for AD, they were like, no,

having Zion for seven years under relatively manageable money is like having Patrick Mahomes a quarterback or having Russell Williams a quarterback. Like you can't possibly do that unless you think KD, Kyrie, AD come and we're in the five. next year, unless you are sure that that's what you're going to have going into August.

I don't know. I think it's a fascinating conversation. I'm pretty impressed with the combination of work and luck that's gone into New Orleans a few weeks of the offseason so far, landing the head of Phoenix's med staff, getting somebody like Griffin, now getting the number one pick. There's a feeling of stability that hasn't been there in a while. Yeah. If we're looking around the landscape, I think the way to do this is to say, what's the best blue chipper that each team can throw in there, are any of the draft picks that the Knicks or the Lakers got here better than Jason Tatum? Right.

The more than I'm thinking here, because we're just processing your own feelings in the aftermath of this all, I do wonder, would you rather R.J. Barrett over Tatum? I don't know. I'm still in the camp where I think Tatum has become underrated. We've focused so much on all of his flaws, and he does have many of them. I still think he can be a front-line score. Maybe he isn't an MVP candidate, but I think he's starting to prove that he can get his shot off

against a lot of different opponents. And I think if you feed him rather than play him off of Kyrie, I do feel like he could thrive, particularly in Alvin Gentry system where he's going to get up and down and get shots. You think Alvin Gentry is going to be back next year? It seems like all signs are pointing to that direction. They probably would have done something about it by now.

Well, the one thing is Alvin, before any of this happened got really close with Gail Benson. I remember in the playoff series noting how much time Alvin Gentry was spending in photos talking to Gail Benson. And I will say this,

he is a very shrewd political maneuverer. Yeah. Like, he knows what he's doing. And so there was a point where he even, like, made a big show of things at a post-game press conference to say that this isn't...

Towards the end of the regular season. This regular season, yeah. Just when everything was kind of going off the rails that like you shouldn't throw New Orleans under the bus. This ownership is fine. Like Gail gives us everything that we need. Right. I mean. Was that a shot at Dell or was that just like sometimes stuff like this happened? It was probably a little bit of a shot of Dell because they have clashed at times. But I also think it was a message to ownership like I believe in you. Yeah, yeah. You should believe in me. Pay forward. That's the cynical perspective. But at the same time,

like I can't imagine he didn't think about that as well. I want to talk a little bit about the coaching carousel a little bit later. Why don't we go through some of the other lottery results tonight? Because it was a testament to the NBA's ability to create interests and eventize something that's like essentially an algebraic equation. They flatten the odds this year. So the bottom three teams had a 14% chance each, correct? This was the results of that. Obviously, we've talked about the Pelicans. We talked about the NICS.

The order of the draft in June will be New Orleans Pelicans picking one, obviously picking Zion Williamson. Number two is the Memphis Grizzlies. Number three is the New York Knicks. Number four is the L.A. Lakers, which I think all of us were seeing our life flash in front. of our eyes when that was happening. But that's also a very interesting. A top four pick for L.A. possibly puts them back into the trade conversation.

I think that we were all sort of talking about. L.A. has depreciated a bunch of the assets around L.Bron because of the way that those guys played after the Davis trade talks fell apart. And not really knowing what Ingram or Kuzma or ball or heart or any of these guys are worth on the open market. Now you've got a number four pick to sweeten the deal if you want to make a trade move in there. Whether they will or won't, it's really unclear because we don't really know who's calling the shots in Los Angeles right now anyway. Number five pick was the Cleveland Cavaliers, Phoenix Suns number six, Chicago Bulls number seven, Hawks eight, Wizards Nine, Hawks again at 10.

So some interesting stuff in there. And right now what we've got, let's just be candidly, like Justin and I are more pro basketball fans. So we're looking at this basically, like we're reading the tea leaves and candidly reading Charks and Danny and Kevin O'Connor and seeing what they're saying. By all accounts, it's a one-player draft in terms of like, this will change your franchise. I've heard some people say that the top three guys may have a profound effect on a franchise,

but Kevin's got it, Zion, RJ, J. J. J. J. J. J. J. Jah, from Duke, Jah, Morant, from Maurice Stap. Have you watched enough of these guys here to feel like someone in this top five, one of these teams can count themselves lucky? Do you think it's a three-player draft? Do you think with the fourth pick,

the Lakers are actually more screwed that we're letting on them to be? Yeah, I mean, I think Morant is just the interesting guy for me. And you think that the Grizzlies who have Mike Conley waiting at least another year in Memphis. Well, Bobby Mark said on Twitter, he was basically like, I wouldn't count on Mike Conley being on the Grizzlies next year. And I wonder if this just pushed him out the door or if they're going to say to themselves, like, he's the perfect veteran

in order for Jada, like, learn under. Right. I'm sure watching Markisal in the Eastern Conference finals won't increase Mike Connolly's desire to go somewhere else at all. I mean, I watched a little of him in the tournament. He just seemed like the classic overachieving small conference guard. I'm super intrigued by him, especially, I mean, as we're recording this, the Blazers are playing.

And obviously, they had success with Lillard and then C.J. McCollum. He seems to be in that type, where he's just like this dynamic athlete and somehow came up in a system where he just ended up at a small school and I don't know how that happened, but it just seems like he transcended that. A lot of his advanced numbers are good, which is always a good sign,

especially when you're trying to weigh whether or not it was the competition versus his actual abilities. I don't know. He just seems like he's so dynamic. Yeah. And he seems like a fun player. And I feel like the Grizzlies

who are going through some front office changes and are kind of pivoting to that next era post, grit and grind. I think he makes a lot of sense. And I think it would be fun to watch him in particular play with Triple J. It's really interesting. to think about this. Because Grizzlies, I assume, are going to stay where they are. I don't think

the Knicks necessarily are going to stay at three, because now they have a top three pick. I don't think Atlanta needs three picks in the top 10, but I'm just saying that like the Knicks now have an asset. It's not as good of an asset as if it was Zion, but in some ways they can now guilt-free trade away if they want to. And if they think that this class of free agents is coming in, that they all signals seem to be pointing towards the possibility of a Durant Irving union in New York at the garden, that number three pick can do you a lot of good because those guys aren't there for a rebuilding project.

They're there to make a run at the Eastern Conference finals at the very least in the first year. Right. Yeah. And as I was saying, I do think if New Orleans is looking at the board here, they have to consider RJ Barrett, let's say he goes three,

or he is the third guy, and all these other young prospects that the Knicks have kind of accumulated, plus the Dallas Mavericks future picks. Like, they have a really good package. Oh, you're saying as a package for Davis. For Davis. Interesting.

But I will say this is something I was talking about before when our Knicks fans were already just like preparing for the worst. Durant is already on a super team. Does he really want the same setup in New York? Because it seems like part of what's driving his motivations, which are completely unknowable. Just considering what we know about Durant, it seems like he sways one way or another, depending on the week.

If he's following this savior narrative, does he want Anthony Davis to be joining him? Like, how good of a day? team does he want in order for him to be the guy? That's really interesting. I mean, you talk about player power. You're not even talking about, oh, well, these guys dictate, you know, players dictating where they get to go or maybe expressing dissatisfaction while under contract a la Kauai, a la Anthony Davis. We're talking about Kevin Durant might need to or be, it might benefit him to make that clear, man. It might benefit him to be like,

hey, I'm 30. There was a five-second chance there in 2019 where I thought I might have popped my Achilles. Life's short. NBA lives are short. Let's get as many good guys that were ready to go right now because you can go from the basement to the ceiling really fast in this league.

Or is he like, I'm going to be here for the rest of my career. I'm going to sign a four-year deal. And let's build over the next two or three years. And I won't play, you know, I'll play 70 games a year and just kind of like be. there when we need me, but there's a way to build this up over a three-year cycle rather than tomorrow we need to have Fisdale coaching in the Eastern Conference finals. I mean, that's the same thing that the Lakers went through this year.

Yeah, exactly. I don't know. He's younger than LeBron. It just seems like now would be his window. I do feel like he has things to prove in a way that LeBron didn't. I think before LeBron even made this move, everyone had pretty much given him legacy armor. He just did not have to worry about anything else he was already in the goat conversation. I feel like our opinions of KD are so much more muddled. And I do think perhaps if he doesn't play in this Western Conference finals

and the Warriors just blow out the Blazers, all of a sudden there's that added tension of, well, the Warriors are actually fine, and it seems like they're having more fun. And it seems like Steph Curry and Clay Thompson are enjoying this more. And Draymond Green all of a sudden is playing as well as he used to and looking 20 pounds lighter. And I don't know.

I think there's a lot going on here that we're still going to figure out. Yeah, it's going to be a really, really fascinating summer. Let's kind of keep going through these top picks. So we talked about the Grizzlies and their uncertain front office situation and what it means for maybe keeping or losing Mike Conley. They have a really interesting player in Jared Jackson Jr. They have some okay pieces around that. I feel like that team is very much in the rebuilding phase.

The Knicks, we discussed. The Lakers, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen with this team. We talked a little bit last week about the Tailu coaching situation in him wanting five years. They giving him three. Now they have Vogel. They've installed Jason Kidd as essentially the shadow head coach next to him.

And we know that LeBron, just by sheer math, is in at least the late stages of his prime, if not the beginning of his twilight. So it would seem that the Lakers are operating on a three-year plan. So that would mean that they either have to think the number four pick is incredible or they're going to trade it in a package to get somebody to pair with LeBron. Yeah, it really depends on this guy and who, it is. And I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, it's a three-player draft. Right. And I don't know what...

Jared Culver is not going to... No, that's the thing. Is that Culver or I like DeAndre Hunter, like, I'm always seduced by like a McHale Bridges or DeAndre Hunter kind of guy who's a two-way player and is also ready to go right now. But that's not going to change anything for the Lakers. Having another two-way wing to play around LeBron is not going to particularly like change the game. Yeah. I mean, they should still... As weird as it is to say, like, just an hour after they had this miracle lottery, it does feel like the plan is still the same. Just the names are a little bit different. It does seem like they are on a timeline.

And if anything, I would just be talking up how great these four and five and six level prospects are and leaking how Brandon Ingram looks great and there's nothing wrong with his medicals. Right. Because I think you should be trying to package this. If not for AD, somebody else, I don't know who that would be. Maybe Mike Conley all of a sudden. Maybe like the Grizzlies want less for him.

if they know that they can get a John Morant. It's weird because there isn't a clear-cut next guy, especially after Christophis Perzingis got traded to Dallas. You would think that they would focus their attention on packaging these guys and going elsewhere. Maybe they'll just trade LeBron for Ben Simmons. It was just apparently something that someone is called someone about. Okay, the rest of the lottery, Cavs, new coach,

this is a tough spot for them. They're very much in a rebuild. I would expect love to get moved, although I would think. You think, but who wants that contract? Right. Maybe LeBron does. I don't know. That's the thing.

Lakers could just have a Cavs reunion out in Los Angeles if they want to. John Beeline joins the Cleveland Cavaliers as their new head coach, I think on a five-year deal. He leaves the University of Michigan. He's, by all accounts, an offensive genius and is an incredible development guy. So it'll be exciting to see some of the Cavs younger players and see how they grow and see what the Cavs do with number five, which could be Culver, Hunter, Garland. it could be Cam Reddish could slip down there. So there's a lot of guys who could be interesting for Cleveland. And that's what is kind of neat about the draft.

It's like, depending on the year, you are almost in like a higher value situation around six or seven than you are at three or four, depending on what's going on here. Yeah, these next teams are the teams that all lost the lottery. Yes. And that's one thing I wanted to ask you about is essentially, like this was the first year of the odds getting flattened, a team with a 6% chance won the lottery. lottery. The Lakers got into the top four. And the Phoenix in Atlanta and Chicago stories with a

so A, how do you feel about the first quote unquote fair lottery? And B, was it fair? I was thinking as the Lakers jumped into the lottery and you saw the look on guys like DeAndre Aitin knowing that he would drop out of the top five. He wouldn't be getting this transformative prospect to play next to you. Nick Gilbert, a guy who's who had been like the. A couple of number one picks, man. Yeah. So he's hazra. It's almost like a parent showing their kid like a baby and being like, this is why you only practice abstinence.

Like, this is why you don't do what you were doing. It scared me that you spend an entire year if you're the sons, if you're the calves, just throwing these games away. And all of a sudden, all you get is the sixth in the fifth pick. I think it's like the appropriate comeuppance for what they did. for tanking. For tanking. But on the other hand, it vaulted to,

well, one other big market franchise into the top four. So I do wonder if people are going to look at that and say, well, the playing field isn't leveled,

the way that small markets can kind of combat their stars all wanting to flee to the coast. Right. As we have the lottery, we can tank, we know we can get

these cost-controlled star players on two contracts, essentially. Yeah, and, I mean, this has come up a couple of times this week.

I know Ryan and Bill were talking about on their pod, this whole idea that the CBA was constructed as it was because they figured no one will ever turn down an extra year and extra money and leave their smaller market team until LeBron did. And we start getting into a world in which maybe some creative accounting and maybe some thoughtful branding can get you the same amount of money you would get for staying that extra year on a team that's never going to get past the second round. And I personally even worry about someone's never happened where somebody's turned down their rookie extension like Ben Simmons, but I worry about somebody like Ben Simmons,

who seems like exactly the kind of guy who's like, I believe in my potential to make up whatever money I wouldn't get here somewhere else. And that would be a really interesting day, the day a rookie turns out a rookie extension. I mean, we've already got Davis basically saying he doesn't want to sign this Supermax deal. It'd be interesting to see what happens with Bradley Beal when that comes up, right? He's up for a Supermax extension pretty soon, isn't he?

If he gets all NBA, yeah. That's right. So a couple really interesting offseason questions to consider, is there anything about this lottery that felt especially cruel to you? Well, I mean, the Hawks dropping to eight. This is a team that we talked about the entire season is doing everything right.

Even Trey Young, a prospect that I don't think a lot of us were high on, had completely turned around in the second half of the season. All of a sudden was pushing Luca Donchich for rookie of the year. He still might get a lot of rookie at the year love. Yeah. We don't know because the awards are in July, yeah. Next season.

I'll be in Lake Tahoe. I'm not even checking in on that. I will be here in watching and totally, thank you, but they end up at 10th with,

I believe that's the Mavericks pick that they got from the Luca Donchik Trage. That's not the return they want. That doesn't make up

for the gap between Luca as a prospect and Trey as a prospect because as much as I love Trey, the better you get and the more high level, high stakes games you're playing, he's going to be exposed,

especially on the defensive end. And then their own pick ends up at eight. So they have eight and ten, and while they have shown the ability to draft lower. I believe herder. Yeah.

Collins. Yeah. I think they were drafted in the same spot. It's just not great for a team that put all their, their eggs in the draft bear. I'm going the other way. Okay. I think they're okay. Now, I don't necessarily think that the Hawks two picks tempts Memphis or New York or L.A.

or anybody. It's not the NFL. I don't know if these bundling picks really work. I think they're in a great position. The Hawks are two years away from being two years away. I think that they can continue to be lovable, continue to be entertaining, they can continue to grow homegrown stars, and they can be in the lower rung of the Eastern Conference playoffs

and maybe a year or two. I think that that's a better path for them, for them to have a DeAndre Hunter, who's like a proven winner, a little bit older, is like right ready to go into the starting lineup. I love that for them. Like if you're not going to get Zion, better having Hunter and someone else

then going, okay, we got Cam Reddish, and it turns out he's a bust, and so we're really back at nothing. Right, yeah, they definitely helped their, like, hipster belt, like, bona fides here. But I do wonder had they vaulted into the top three if they'd gotten a guy, maybe not Morant, but if they had a bear it,

all of a sudden they have this cap space, and maybe the process is a lot quicker than we thought. Yeah. We'd think about this team for, like, a few years in advance, but as we saw with the Sixers, like, the window happens, and you just got to take advantage of it. Absolutely.

And the Sixers, I think also basically destroyed their own roster to get that chance. If Harris walks, they're going to look at that Clippers trade as one of the low-key worst trades made in a long time because they gave up that pick and they gave up Shamit, who would have been a cheap imitation Clay Thompson in a time when they're going to either have to pay through the nose for JJ or lose him. I just think that the amount of free agent destinations are shrinking and more and more you've got to trade for what you want or draft what you want. And I think that there's more likely that guys either stay where they are or go to one of the five big teams

that they want to go to. L.A, L.A., New York, Brooklyn, Golden State, you know, Portland's not going to get a free agent. Oklahoma City's not going to get a free agent, mostly because they don't have any money. But those kinds of places, no one's moving there.

Yeah. They might stay there, but they're not moving there. Well, it is interesting because the one, like, dormant, huge market that also lost in this draft was the Chicago Bulls. Yes. A team that has done everything right,

in terms of being a tanking team, perhaps they didn't go as hard as they needed to. And here they end up at 7. And they're kind of committed to this middle of the road now where it's Zach Levine, it's Otto Porter, it's Wendell Carter. All these players are fine. Yeah.

And they're almost like Orlando Magic Heavy. Right. You know, they're just that version of, we tanked, but we only ended up getting good players. The good version of this is like a 40 win team. or a 35 win team. Yeah, and I like a lot of those guys. Sure, in a bubble.

Yeah, not together. And not with that coach. Your ceiling is probably like a top four seed. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the Wizards because according to Ben Goliver, this is a tweet from Ben, after the first three of four lottery numbers were drawn,

the Pelicans had the most winning combinations, followed by the Wizards. And in the room, Washington's Tommy Shepherd tracked numbers and knew exactly how close the franchise came to winning the Zion draft. So that is, Knicks fans can be heartbroken. The teams that super tanked, like the Cavs or the Hawks

or the Sons or the Bulls can be heartbroken. That literally would have saved that franchise. I mean, not that they're going anywhere, but as Bill and Ryan talked about on their show, that wall contract has the potential to be the heaviest and the worst deal in the NBA. Well, this is the essential question of the draft, which is should you be rewarded for incompetence?

The Wizards did that to themselves. Yeah. And so I am of the belief that the entire, like, incentive structure is completely flawed, which is why Sam Hinky did what he did was more to, like, take advantage of this flawed system. Right. Like, teams like the Wizard should not be benefiting from giving John Wall that contract. Sure. And so that's what I'm wondering here.

But there's a version of the John Wall contract that's bad, but is like Blake Griffin and Russell Westbrook bad, versus John Wall is going to likely miss a significant amount of next. year, I would imagine, or at least is going to come back somewhat depleted. He had the Achilles injury, and then he re-injured something, right? As of April 9th, John Wall was not sure if he was going to return next season. So that's where that is. And that's when his huge deal kicks in. That would have been, I can't even comprehend how amazing that would have been if Zion it got of the Wizards. Oh, they would have screwed it up. Well, okay, so here's the question. Is this fun? Is what we just witness fun? I don't know. I don't know. I don't

really know what the solution is for this other than shortening the season because the NFL, you don't have to sit through 50 games of it. You know, like if a team is bad and they lose, they might get the number one pick, but it doesn't feel like this miserable march. And also, the NFL, it just feels like, sure, you can draft a quarterback with the first five picks, but like what you really need is always like a left tackle. And that doesn't really happen in the NBA. You're not ever drafting like the quiet seal that will keep, you from drowning in the NBA draft. You're always drafting for talent.

You're always drafting for best player available now. So I don't know what the solution is for the NBA unless they want to radically change their product. We can have the same argument about the playoffs that we've been watching and whether or not the playoffs are as entertaining as they could be, you know? Or if they should be, is entertainment the thing that we're looking for?

What do you think? About the draft itself, I mean? There's a lot of ripple effects from these sort of decisions that they're making. On the one hand, I often feel like the NBA NBA thinks that tanking, like anybody cares about tanking. I think the owners care about tanking. I think when one gets something that someone else doesn't and they view it as an injustice,

Adam Silver ultimately has to answer to the ownership. And that's why he's making some of the decisions that he's doing. On the other hand, I feel like it almost promotes fans like us to be less regional, to be less like baseball fans that do fans of one team and to be more national fans. Which I think is an interesting occurrence that I don't know necessarily has. any downside. But I do wonder looking forward if that is a good idea considering where, like, streaming rights are going. You know what I'm saying? Are you saying that you think it's bad for, like, people with no real, quote-unquote, vested interest to care whether or not Zion goes to

New Orleans or Memphis? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I just think, like, going forward, I wonder, how are we going to consume basketball? Does it matter that, like, a tanking team is just completely off the board because we view the NBA as a totality if we're just gravitating towards stars or is that money at the gate going to be increasingly important

when nobody is going to their TV and paying as much for cable packages. That's like an entirely other pocket. It's like really it's almost an existential question about the league because I think for despite its popularity I just feel like this season

more than the last few I've I felt like not only were people like, yeah, I'm going to get really involved. People who I know who are not like NBA league pass diehards or professionally obligated to be involved with the NBA on a night tonight basis, we're like, I'll check in during the playoffs. And even during the playoffs, we're like, I'll check it on game three. Right. I mean, we've talked about this in the past that the viewership is down slightly. And a lot of it seems to stem back to LeBron.

Like I remember earlier in the season that the East Coast national games, the viewership was down a little bit. because they no longer had LeBron. I think there's going to be a sort of reckoning where LeBron passes the baton and I do wonder if, whether it's Yannis, whether it's some of these other guys, they are players who are comparable in terms of just like dominance on the court.

But they are not celebrities in the same way that LeBron is. So I do wonder what the next step is. How do you fill that void? And that there is no answer. Yeah. If none of them will ever be LeBron, then do each local team, do they matter most? To drawing people at the gate,

getting local cable packages, does that still matter? Is that still viable in an era where people of our age are only streaming? I do not have cable. Yeah, you're not obligated to watch an 82 game bull season if they've checked out halfway through the season, if not a quarter of the way through the season. And Adam Silver has been talking about this pretty openly. So it's something that the league is very aware of

and it's interesting to see going down. And it's afflicting, I think baseball too. I think it doesn't happen in soccer as much because of relegation, but they do see teams who are playing very safe to get like a, minimum amount of points to stay up in leagues. So it's a fascinating conversation to go forward with. So now we're going to be joined by our buddy, Kevin O'Connor, who was lucky enough to be in the room where it happens to borrow a lyric from Hamilton.

You ever see that, Justin? No. No, okay. Do I seem like a theater going on time? Why don't you try to check Hamilton out after Free Agency? I'm going to go to Lake Tahoe. Okay. Kevin, what was it like in the room?

So you put us in the scene. you're in a room, you can't have your phone, what's happening? Well, I would say it was pretty much utter silence as soon as Kiki Vandeway started talking about the process of the lottery and everything. And then the lottery ball started rattling around. And the numbers come out and

the one of the Solicans get announced as the number one pick and then Alvin Drenchtry screams. Fuck yeah! And he stands up and he stretches his arms out. Like, are you not entertained? And then he quietly says, sorry, he goes back to the state. Everybody in the room is laughing and cheering the whole time because I thought it was the most genuine reaction that you could possibly have to a team

getting the number one pick and the chance to draft a franchise changing player in Diane Williamson for the team that could be losing another franchise changing player in Anthony Davis. But now with AD, that with Dion, there's a chance that they could try to keep AD and that's my main takeaway from the night. And, like, there was so much emotion bottled up in that stream from Alvin Gentry. The whole room definitely was in support of it. And David Griffin, after we all got out of that room, certainly had a positive reaction to it as well.

It was pretty special seeing Gentry react that way. What was the Knicks vibe? Utter silence. No reaction from Houston who represented the Knicks on the room there. Not much of a reaction there at all. I think there was probably a sense of disappointment knowing that it'll be hard for them to get Anthony Davis in a trade, and I think that's true for most any team

that had interest in Anthony Davis. The fact they have the number one pick changes everything. Yeah, so Shams is still reporting that this doesn't change Davis's wishes to be traded. And, I mean, there's already some, like, Apo research happening where I saw a tweet, I think, from Mark Spears, that Zion was whisked away

because he had been hoping to go to New York but is now a New Orleans player or whatever. I mean, we're going to get this crap thrown at us. I know the feeling, buddy. Kevin, I guess one thing I wanted to hear from you is after witnessing the actual process of this happening, the lottery process, do you think it's fair? There's always straight-off,

and this is going to be one of the things I write about in reaction to this. I think the change they made was to give less certainty, and that's that thing that teams don't have to totally bottom out and be totally garbage in order to get the best, God. So yes, while it's true that the quote-unquote worst teams didn't get the best highest picks, well, that's the tradeoff that the league made. And this is exactly what can happen. Whether it's good or bad, well, I think that remains to be seen. There's still good players

that can be found anywhere throughout the draft, and it all depends on the pick that you actually make. But ultimately, this still was a one-player draft. I personally don't think outside of Zion at number one, like John Morant or Audrey Barrett is two or three in my mind, but they're not so far removed from the guys at four, five, six, or seven, that it makes a drastic difference. It's really just that number one pick spot, not just this year, but most years that actually makes a difference. And oh, by the way, like, even when it was 25% odds to get the number one pick, it's not very often that team actually ended up getting the number one pick. So I think overall it's a good thing and moves in the right direction, but there's

certainly tradeoffs. And for the worst teams to not get the best picks, I'm sure those fan bases aren't happy about it, but I think it's for the best overall personally. Do you think there was a winner of the losers tonight? Somebody outside of the Pelicans who would be able to say, hey, we really like where we landed. Not even because of the odds, but because you

think that they're going to get a good player with where they are. We were just debating the Justin and I were debating whether or not Atlanta should be kicking themselves set for having eight and ten or whether they have a nice little spot there. Well, I mean, Memphis is the obvious first team, you know, landing the second pick and the amount of options

they'll have to pair a young player with Mike Conley or whether they move on from him at some point and also with Jaron Jackson obviously is their cornerstone there. I still think even though the Knicks fell down two slots, they're still in an unbelievable spot. They didn't fall out entirely. And number three, they can still use that pick and a trade. They can still use that pick and get a quality prospect there. Any team that didn't get Zion is going to be disappointed, but I still think for the Lakers

and Knicks with their market size and the way they can draw, free agents can draw, players interested in being traded. They have a lot of draft capital still landing at three or four, especially the Lakers, moving up seven spots. Yeah, so, Kev,

your mock draft actually just went live as we were on this call here. So you've kind of sketched out the first round. Can you walk us through maybe some of the first few picks? Yeah, that's a good idea. These teams can kind of, like,

plan on getting? I have not seen our mock yet. Well, presumably, you loaded the picks. I can read them to you. Okay, I just pulled it up. This is like a group mock that we did. Okay. I'm looking at it right now for the first time.

This is like... We have Cam Reddish falling to the eight six to the hawks. That's great for them. And I think that speaks to the nature of this draft. You look at this draft. Someone like Cam Reddish entered college is a top prospect and he struggled at Duke as the third wheel behind Zion Williamson and R.J. Barris. But because of those struggles, he's going to be a guy like a Justice Winslow or a Miles Turner who falls in the draft.

And depending on who you talk to, depending on your own evaluation of British, he's a love him or hate him prospect. But if Atlanta at that eight spot or even Chicago at seven or one of those teams in the mid-first, you might be happy with a guy who can shoot from the perimeter who can generate his own shot. Like, everybody's going to say, this draft is crap. and no doubt that this draft has a lot of guys of question marks up and down the board, and including at the second and third spot, right behind Zion, there's guys with question marks. There are very few sure things in this draft,

and that's why with this year's class, it stinks for these teams who didn't move up, but there's still talent that we had just in the sense that it flattens out. I would say the one thing that's on my mind is with those teams in that 2, 3, 4 range. Yeah. I look at it a lot like the Foltz draft where I think this is, a year where you should look to trade down. Sorry, I'm sorry.

We don't say that name. We don't say that name on this podcast. But I mean, I remember that year, like, one of the first things I wrote up the lottery was this is a year to trade down. And I feel exactly the same with this year's class because, you know, if you're in that second spot and you don't love R.J. Barrett, but you don't love John Morant, but you really like Jared Culver and you know you can get him at the fifth pick in Cleveland or Phoenix loves him. and loves John Morant and they want to move up?

Well, I think moving from two to six makes a lot of sense with the extra draft capital or assets or players that you can get. That's what winning a top pick means that gives you more flexibility, more so than I think necessarily a pick of the best players because every team and every executive within each team

is going to have these guys ranked drastically differently. John Moran is not number two everywhere. Roger Barrett is not number three everywhere. There will be teams that have a Culver or a Darius Garland or even a Cam Reddish ranked high on their board. So there's just going to be a lot of variants from team to teams bidboard. That's really interesting.

We haven't had a draft like that. I don't know, maybe even since the Embed draft where I felt like there was a lot of like, ooh, I just have no idea what could happen next. And it doesn't even matter what the big boards are because you can get some bullshit like what happened between Dallas and Atlanta last year that just throws everything for a loop, right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And like that, because Embedd was sort of the, not consensus number one,

but close to consensus number one until that. injury, the back injury right before the draft knocked him down behind Wiggins and Parker. So like that, there's always variables that can happen with injuries before the draft the next five, six weeks as well. Well, okay, so let's talk about the Grizzlies just really quickly because that's pretty much the big

inflection point of this draft, right? We know that Zion's going one. You are the GM of the Memphis Grizzlies, Kevin. Honestly, he might be the GM of the Memphis Grizzlies. I have no, I can't disprove that. If you see John Hollander and you could find him in the bowels of that arena, just tell him we said hello.

everything is going to be okay, John. No, but which guy would you go with, if you're going to keep the pick at two, who would you go with, Barrett or Moran? If I were Zach Klein, the decision maker for the Grizzlies, I would look for a trade first, but if I'm keeping that pick,

it largely would depend on what the plan is and what my options are with Mike Conley. And if there's a trade out there that's as strong as what was rumored to be Utah's offer from Conley, which involves two first-round draft picks, I'm probably going to be open at taking that deal for Conley.

I would probably lean towards John Morant in that case. But I think personally, with my own evaluation of John Moran, I would want to see him shoot in pre-draft workouts. I do want to see how real his shot is off the dribble. I'd want to see if he has improved his shooting mechanics off the dribble, especially. So those are questions I would want to answer, but I would want to draft John Moran. He's a guy I would want to draft, but I would need to have those questions answered before actually making that choice.

But John would be my guy ideally. Kev, my last question is, as we all are going to join you overnight in becoming draft experts and going up to our friends and saying, like, yeah, you know, like I've always been a big Kelman Johnson guy. Tell me, who is my SGA this year? Who is the guy who's, you know, maybe right now projected 15, 20 in terms of, I don't know, maybe even somewhere in the 10 to 20, who's going to start, you just have a feeling he might start rising a little bit, that people are going to really like what they see once they start workouts or the combine or what have you?

I'll give you two guys. I think one of the guys that is ranked most places in the 30s or 40s is Jaylon McDaniels, a big man from San Diego State. He's a guy, his versatility on both ends of the floor. To dribble the ball, his versatility in switching, streams, I think, and workouts at 6'10 with length and speed. I think he's somebody who's going to have the ability to move up into the middle first round, but the guy who's already in the middle first round that I think could even

move up into the top 10 is Nasir Little from North Carolina. Another guy similar to Cam Redish who struggled during his freshman year at North Carolina, but ultimately is an insanely talented player, a long wingspan, a great, strong body, explosive athlete, and he has the skills that he flashed in high school and then in college to be a versatile player. And just out of curiosity, where do you have Nasir Little, where does our mock draft having to see a little landing, Kev? Can you guess?

Boston. Boston, really? Okay, interesting. Well, Kev, any other, like, observations you want to share from the night there or the vibe there or anything you want to drop on us? Yeah, I would just say, like, one of the best parts is when we're watching it live, everybody's in the room just kind of standing around, watching for the reactions on the screen, like seeing Kuzma get all excited and someone in the room said, not so fast, my friend. when Coosma got excited Yeah, it was just really nice Everybody's standing around watching it It was great, it was a cool moment All right, man, I'm glad you got to check it out

We'll look for Kevin's Look from inside of the draft lottery experience Tomorrow on the Ringer And you can go to the Ringer also to see Kevin And everybody's mock draft That's up there, the Ringer NBA draft guide is a work of art So you guys should all be checking it out

Kevin, thank you so much for calling in, man. Thank you guys. Have a good night. All right, guys. Thank you so much to Kevin O'Connor. Thank you so much to Jason Concepcion. And, of course, thank you so much to the Dizzy Gillespie of this podcast, Justin Verrier. We're going to be hearing a lot more from Justin about the New Orleans Pelicans Dynasty to be, I'm sure, in the coming weeks.

But for your listening pleasure, we've got Chow and Sharks tomorrow. That would be Wednesday talking both Golden State, Portland Game 1, and obviously some first reactions for them for the. draft lottery. Justin and I will be back with you tomorrow night, Wednesday night after the first game of the Eastern Conference finals. Yeah. And then you can hear Gons and Haley on Thursday night reacting to game two of Blazers Warriors. So we've got quite a few pods. Bill and Riscilla will also be pumping them out. And of course, if you're bored of the NBA, there's always Game of Thrones. So we have a ton of that stuff. And you can check us out on Talk to the Thrones this Sunday on Twitter for the series finale of Game of Thrones. Thanks to everybody for listening. We will be back

with you multiple times this week.