The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 1: ‘NBA Show’ Premiere With Bill Simmons and Howard Beck

Episode Date: April 29, 2016

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons launches an all-NBA-everything feed for the Ringer podcast network. In Episode 1, Bleacher Report's Howard Beck joins Bill to discuss the ongoing struggles of New York's two teams, Phil Jackson's future (16:00), Griffin-Melo trade options (23:00), a Lopez reunion in Brooklyn (34:00), the dysfunctional Clippers (38:00), CP3's prime window (46:00), the 2016 playoff picture, Westbrook's Round 2 ceiling, and Cleveland's upset potential (54:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Ringers NBA show. My name is Bill Simmons. I am not the permanent host of this podcast. We are going to have a rotating group of people on this one. All people in the Ringer universe, myself, Chris Ryan, Juliet Lippman, Jason Concepcion, Jonathan Jarks, and maybe some writers down the road that we're going to hire. Take Frazier. Who knows?

But this is going to be our one-stop shop for NBA talk. You're promised. NBA, NBA, only NBA. And this is a really fun time, obviously, because not only is the playoffs, but we have the lottery coming on May 17th. We have a lot of draft stuff to discuss. We have July free agencies coming.

We have the draft itself on, I think, June 23rd. So there's just a lot going on these next few months. We had a lot of success on the Channel 33 feed with the NFL draft podcast we did. I think we did five or six of them. They did really well. And that made us think, you know what? We should have an NBA show.

And we should also have an NFL show. And that launched today, too. So you can subscribe to both of those on iTunes or SoundCloud. You can find it on eventually Stitcher, Google Play Music, all a bunch of places. But these will be good podcasts, I promise you. And we're going to have Howard Beck coming up in a little bit. But before we do that, I wanted to mention that after the Thrones episode two, is launching on HBO now streaming late, late, late at night on Sunday night. So technically

Monday. We usually put it up about midnight Pacific time just a little bit after the West Coast airing of Game of Thrones. And then it reruns on HBO on Monday night late around 1 o'clock in the morning. Hosted by Chris Ryan, hosted by Andy Greenwald, special appearance in the 7th, 8th and 9th for Mallory Rubin, who is our five-to-a-a-podcast star. So check that out after the Thrones, episode two. Chris Ryan, who saw it, who is one of two people at the ring are allowed to actually watch these shows ahead of time, said episode two is a, quote, doozy, unquote.

So I'm excited to watch those guys. Anyway, we're going to bring on Howard Beck right now. He's from Bleacher Report. Have never had him on a podcast somehow. By all accounts, a great guest. I'm excited. Let's call it. As promised, Howard Beck,

How have we never done this before? I don't understand. It's my fault. I blame myself. It feels overdue, but I'm happy to be here. Yeah. I guess I was at ESPN for such a long time. Bleacher report was kind of off limits for guests.

And then... I'm wiping off that excuse. You could have had me before. That's true. You're right. Again, I blame myself. It's a terrible job by me. So, one of the...

You're still living in the Tri-State area, correct? Yeah. Right. So, you know, you have this playoffs. New York has two of the 30 teams in the league. It's so much fun. You have at least one New York team in the playoffs. You get to go to the games, do some networking, and you're sitting this one out.

Can you believe that New York doesn't have a playoff team? Whoops, you're from L.A. in 2004 years. I get here, the Knicks are a disaster, but the Nets were decent. And then the Nets started to fall off, and the NICS kind of got okay. But they can't get it together in New York. The Knicks and Nets are never good at the same time, it seems like. And, I mean, it's a steep ask just to get one of them to be competent. The real problem, Bill, at this stage, and maybe they're starting to figure it out each of the franchises,

is that, and I blame the NICS primarily for this, of course. The NICS went through all those years of being the, we don't care about the future, We don't care about picks. We don't care about organic building. It's about now. We've got to win this press conference. We've got to win this back page. And we've got to make the biggest splash.

They get the biggest names. And they did this over and over. And then Prokurov comes in and owns the nets. And he follows the worst possible model in the world. He followed the next model. He said, he told Billy King basically, you know, get me a championship in five years. So they mortgaged the future time and again to the great benefit of your Boston Celtics.

Yeah. And so what you have is, it becomes a race to the bottom because it was a race for the back pages and the headline. And I feel like they've both kind of been chastened now. You know, I mean, what about Phil Jackson? We can get into that. I think that he's pursuing a more methodical, smarter path for the Knicks. I'm not saying it's perfect.

I'm just saying at least he's not swinging for the fences on every move. And the Nets, you know, they hired Sean Marks. They hired a Spurs guy who then went out and hired a coach Keny Atkinson, who's the first time head coach, that's not a big headline. You know, they're not, you know, they weren't looking to make the splash. They're looking to just get the best people. And look, they have to take, the Nets have to take the methodical long view now because they have no picks and they, you know, they've got plenty of cap room,

but, you know, I don't know why the Nets are our destination right now for any. Yeah, it's weird for it to be this quiet here. Let's tackle the Nets first because, I mean, there's a short-term part and a long-term part to this. The long-term part is they don't have picks for two years, and it's not like they can just blow it up and rebuild. Short-term, they're actually in a pretty good spot because they're in, I mean, I guess a better spot than maybe it seems,

because they're in New York, and they have a lot of cap space. Brooke Lopez was a top, I would say, 25 to 30 player. I thought he was a really effective center last season. He was killing the Celtics chances at the first or second spot. And that's really all they have. But they can take some chances, right? Like, to me, this is a team that could potentially just say, hey, Chicago, we'll take Derek Rose for the last year of his deal.

We'll just roll the dice with him and see in a contract year if he's good. Like, they can take somebody like Tyreek Evans, who I've never loved. But they can kind of take other teams bad short-term contracts, roll the dice, and see how that goes. I don't see any other strategy that could potentially work. What am I missing? No, I don't think you're missing anything, Bill. And I think the Derek Rose thing is something I've floated myself. I mean, I've had that exact scenario in mind.

Like, if there's any team that would make sense for Derek Rose if the Bulls decide to offload him, it's a short-term rental, as you know, as you mentioned, you know, they've got the cap room, so you can just absorb him. You only have to send anything of note back. Now, obviously, the Bulls are going to want something back. That's where the problem comes in, actually, is, okay, it sounds good that, you know, this is a place where Derek Rose could maybe revive

his career and it's low risk for the nets and it gives fans something to, you know, at least be intrigued by and a player to, you know, they don't have fixed the trade. They've got a couple of young players. They've got a couple of young players. Even though you don't have to match salary. But I do think that's the strategy. I do think it is, yeah, take on some damaged goods because, you know, they'll make their pitch to Kevin for whatever, you know, whatever that may get them, you know.

Like, there's plenty to like, they've got a great new practice facility. they just opened a couple months ago. So they've got things to sell that the guys want to win, and Waldridge last summer, didn't work out so well for Monroe, but guys want more than just the big light from the big city now. And so you're not going to get the top names. Al Horford and Mike Conley, I don't think, are coming to Brooklyn. Yeah, they're in a position where they can take some chances.

The other alternate scenario is the one that I've thrown out there a few times, and it makes a lot of folks around the net's cringe, my thought was, you know what? Yeah, Brooke Lopez did just come off a really nice season statistically. Trade him. Trade him now. Get some picks back. I mean, you're going to be horrible anyway.

This team is not making the playoffs anytime soon. See what you can get for Brooke Lopez. Auction them off. Auction off that he is young. I mean, those guys are not cornerstones of a winning team right now. And by the time you get them help, you know, I don't know when that's going to be. So I'd like, you know, I don't know what the market is for those guys. But some team might need that versatile scoring that Brooke Lopez brings.

I think he's so much of it. People talk about Ennis Canter being a liability defensively. Brooke Lopez can't move defensively. And today's NBA with the need for Bigman to be able to come out and then show on the pick and roll. The numbers he puts up are worth the downside. And he just got through another season of actually being healthy on that foot. Trade him before something else happens.

On the other hand, I watched a lot of Nets games. It was actually fun to have a team just to root against every game. Lopez single-handedly won like 12 games this year, and he was unstoppable at times. Teams were double-teaming him. He was still scoring. He's finding open guys. I would have traded him in February because

first of all, I don't trust his feet at all. Second, I was amazed during the season that he was putting together an 82-game season, basically, until they rested in the last two weeks. but it is the very definition of selling high. And when you think about it, if they traded him this summer, I think he would have real value. He's got a good contract.

And he's somebody with real skills that would really help teams that would figure out how to use him. You could argue, trade him, get something back for him, whether it's a pick, young player, or whatever. Then maybe that's the team that signs Dwight for two years for $35 million. They trade for Derek Rose for a year. They just take a bunch of flyers on high-profile guys short-term and either hope that they can salvage their primes or that their trade chips maybe. Or if it doesn't work, so what? You're not going anywhere anyway. That's what I would do if I ran the team.

I don't know what Sean Mark. What is your feeling on when Sean Marks wants to do? Yeah, the Spurs, the RC Beaufort tree, Sean Mark is not doing a lot of cards. Yeah, yeah. So I don't think we know exactly where they're going. You know, if we can read Tee leaves, hiring Kenny Ackinson, you know, aside from him being, you know, he's not really a member of the Spurs family tree, although, you know, Kenny's been working for Mike Budenholzer, who is part of the pop tree.

I think the one thing you can see there is that, hey, look, they wanted a guy. Kenny's known for being a great development guy. You know, he's never been a head coach. He's phenomenal working with young players, whether it was Damari Carroll and Camp Bazmore, Jeremy Lynn, back when Kenny was an assistant on Mike Dantony staff in New York, his higher screams development. Development screams long term. And that's the realistic view.

So, yeah, to the point that I think we're both making, Brooke Lopez is doing you no good as a cornerstone player. He can't be a number one. As much of his numbers may suggest number one, he's not a number one. I don't think he's even a number two. I think he has to be your third best player if you're going to win and you've got to have a really mobile defensive big man near him playing next to him because he can't do much at that end of the court.

Some other team might actually have a way to use him to his full potential and still will. Yeah, he's doing them no good if you can find a way and get something of value, whether it's picks towards something. And when those picks do start coming back to you a few years down the road, you know, you hopefully have built something up to add them too. because, you know, picks, you know, picks are about rebuilding, right? If they had their pick right now, whoever they got, Ben Simmons or whoever, that guy's still not going to lead them to playoff contention for a few years.

I mean, look at the Minnesota Timberwolves. They've got great young players. They are not in the playoffs yet. We'll see how long it takes. Youth doesn't get you there. So by the time the net start having their picks coming in again, you want to have to have already built some group with you. You've got to start taking some flyers on guys,

and I do think they should be entertaining trading Brook Lopez and Thadis Young. I mean, the only other way to do it basically would be to do a little bit what Hinky did last year with that Sacramento trade where you become the salary cap way station for teams looking at clear cap. The problem is the cap went way up and this isn't the year to be that team.

There's no advantage anymore. The Knicks, so if Philly takes Porzingis 3, does Phil Jackson even have a job right now? If Billy takes Porzinga, that's a really fun hypothetical. If Billy takes Porzingis 3, and clearly they should have, I think the Knicks would have happily taken Okifor. Although I heard there was some sentiment for Kaminsky as well. Not at that spot necessarily. I think they would have probably traded down and gotten Kaminsky and something else.

If they have Okafore, I mean, who knows what Okafore would have looked like in New York instead of football-wise, his deficiencies would have still the same. Not much of a passer or a defender and you know, he's here. Right. And Porzing has got the benefit of that. And the problem, one of the problems for Oka for any guy who's drafted in that

savior, okay, go out to star in Carmelo. I think the last several years, I flipped this year. I all, I now think it was good that he was here. I thought Phil's biggest mistake was I mean, he didn't really have to give Carmelo the no trade clause.

right? That didn't need to happen. No. Why did he do that? Hiring Derek Fisher was a terrible overreach, clearly. That was a mistake. I think he didn't get enough for the time. There are a bunch of little things. Every GM, even the good ones, we can always kind of start picking apart the details. But yeah, when you're talking

about you right now, that no trade clause, I didn't understand it at the time. Yeah, he flirted with Chicago and the Lakers and the Rockets. Nobody could give him the money than the Knicks could. The Lakers were the only ones

to even had the cap room to max him out on a four-year deal, but of course the Knicks having his bird rights could give him the five-year deal. Houston and Chicago were going to have trouble even just getting him to

his max number. So they had all the leverage in the world in terms of the money, and he still only took a minor pay cut, you know, I think five million over five years no trade.

And I thought, my God, like, where was his leverage to get that? And so I asked, you know, I haven't sat down. I haven't talked to Phil extensively since last May at the pre-drub.

We had lunch. We talked on the record for a while. I wrote a story off of it, and I had asked him in that sit-down, why did you have to give him a no-trade clause? And he didn't answer directly in terms of the negotiation. But what he said was, look, it doesn't matter because we don't want guys that don't want to be here. I can trade a guy somewhere that he doesn't want to go. That's kind of got it.

You can call that spin. What does that mean? It's basically, what it really, what it meant, Bill, is that he's saying, uh, the no trade clause only matters if you decided you wanted to trade Carmelo Anthony, but we're not going to do that unless he's, you don't treat players badly by like sending them to Siberia. Yeah, but I mean, they could have traded them, they could have traded him to Boston in February for the Brooklyn pick and Boston's pick and Dallas's pick. They've got in three first rounders for him. Boston would have done that.

Who knows? Because he has the no trade. clause. And here's the other part of it, Bill. The Machiavellian, the potentially Machiavellian part of this, I'm speculating here. But the Machiavellian part of it could be this. We re-signed Carmelho in part

because he was the only good thing we had, we just let him walk. Would they have, though? By him having it up? Wait, hold on. Would the fans have really revolted if they let Carmelo walk? Like, you really think there would have been a revolt? I'm going to give my usual stipulation that I know that

Twitter is not a scientific measure. of anything. But there's a very, very strong, and I think the anti-faction has grown bigger over the last few years. Yeah. But there are some people that are real... Okay. Not to the same extent that the Kobeites in L.A. were invested in Kobe, and you could say,

no, they will not accept any... So, yes, letting him walk would have had some consequence. Wait a second. Hold on. So they trade Carmelo for Blake Griffin. this summer. How did the Knicks fans react? That's a realistic possibility, mostly on the clipper end. But if that happened, I think Knicks fans would get over it pretty quickly.

Even the Carmelo faithful, I think, would say, well, we got younger and more athletic, you know, not only more side right now, but much more longevity left in him. And they haven't gotten anywhere with Carmelo. Wait, you think, do you think Blake has, you think Blake has, you think Blake is a better longevity bet than Carmelo because I'm actually I'm not sure. I know Carmelo's older. You're worried about that squad?

Well, he's Blake has some miles on him now. Blake's like a car that's been in a major car accident and also drove cross-country and then also had the transmission replaced and I don't know. You know, he's had, he has that broken shooting hand makes me nervous.

He missed a whole year with knee-in-jad. I know he's had tendonitis in both knees. Now he has this quad thing that never went away. And, you know, I wonder physically, see, my fear if I'm a Knicks fan, you have this, what is it now, 50-year history of trading for forwards, like about three years after it would have been the best time to get them. And it just seems like he fits into that legacy of Larry Johnson and Antonio McDice and Spencer Haywood and Bob McAry. He lists like 10 guys. It would seem like he's the last. He's the last. He looks like he's the logical successor to those guys, right?

Oh my God, we got Blake. He's one of the best 10 players in the league. This is awesome. And he's breaking down physically. And oh, my God, this sucks. Where the Knicks? I could see that happening. The historical context.

But now we're getting into like curse territory, which is exactly how people write off what's happening to the Clippers right now. I'm not big on the curse thing. I mean, yes, there's that history there. And they made some bad deals for some damage good. 27. He's six years in. He's in his prime. Carmelo is exiting his prime, or will be soon. I mean, I think Carmelo had a very, very good year quietly. One of his best years, and certainly his best year in terms of being a more balanced offensive player, actually, you know, his career high and assists

really worked at that aspect of the game. But, you know, Carmelo's 31, he's 32 next month. And he's 32 a month from today. So Carmelo is about to turn 32. Blake is 27. I think Nick's fans, even the ones who are heavily invested, emotionally invested in Carmelo, might accept that at this stage. Am I wrong thinking that Carmelo is going to age really nicely? Like I do see like a potential extended prime la what happened to Dirk where it's like,

oh, he's got all these miles on him. He's 31, but just his game, I find it hard. I think he's going to be one of those rare guys that six years from now, he's still going to be kind of getting to 80% of what his numbers were. Or am I crazy? No, I don't think it's crazy, Bill. I just, I think that there's a couple of caveats on it. His game should age well because he's a guy who was never relying on a lot of hops

and athleticism and speed in the first place. There's a little bit of it that he needs sometimes to get a shot off. But, you know, his is well, and he moves, you know, And he had one of his best seasons anyway was at the four. Of course, now you've got Porzinger at the four. And until Porzinger, you've got a problem there because, you know, if Carmelo's going to be a four, before you got to trade him. But wait a second. You know what President Brad Stevens would be doing.

He'd be playing Zinger at the five, Carmelo at the four with like three guards. And he'd just be going. I should be exploring that if they're holding on to Carmelo. But to the point about whether it's a game agent. well. Yes, his game will age well, but his body's not aging well. I mean, he's, but he rarely hits 70 games anymore. He never plays 82. He's had a series of knee problems, and I would be concerned about that. He also wasn't a guy who necessarily had a great reputation for keeping himself in fantastic shape. I mean, he's not LeBron

James. He's not Kobe Bryant. He's not maniacal about his body. So I would have some long-term concern. I'd still, I'll take that bet. If it's Blake over Carmelo over the next five years, and end on the likelihood of healthy five years than Carmelo would. But can I get back to the Machiavellian part of the no trade clause? Yeah, hold on. I have one point after a point, and then we'll go back. That's a great point about Carmelo's work ethic, because I've always heard conflicting reports about that.

And you're right. He's at the point of his career that if he's not going to work his ass off this summer and over the next three, four years, just prioritize being in kick-ass incredible shape, you're right. His career could tail off faster than I'm guessing. I mean, Dirk works his ass off. He works really hard at his game. And that's one of the reasons he's been able to kind of keep going and going. Carmelo, to me, always seemed spread out between trying to be all these different things and like that famous ESPN magazine cover story with him as a businessman and his new complex that opened up and all this stuff.

And I'd like to read a story about Carmelo Anthony threw all that stuff away for a summer and just got in the greatest shape of his life. I've not read that story yet in my life. You know, look, guys have these reckonings at some point. And then maybe he's realizing if I want to have, you know, not only do I need to have a better team around me, maybe I need to actually ask for that trade, but I also need to extend my own career. And I got to do what I can to make sure that happens. So maybe that'll happen. And I'm not saying that he's doomed to fall off. I'm just saying that the last several years don't. So go back to the Maccavallian thing. Oh, right. So the no trade clause, and I'm not saying this is a good reason to do it, but hear me out on the theory.

By giving him the no trade clause, when we go, you know, we'd be dealing with the politics of this, the New York politics, the Garden politics of this, what you've basically done is say, if Carmelo Anthony is ever going to be traded, we're not, it's not at our hand. It's going to be on him. He has to come to us and say, I want to be traded. And Bill Jackson even kind of hinted at it a couple months. ago when he was asked directly, will you trade, would you can, well, that's not up to us. He's got no trade clause. So it was as if it was as if the organization is freed of that burden or that responsibility. Like, well, if we ever do trade Carmelo, it's not because we wanted to. It's because he came to us and asked for it. And now you're off the hook as being the person who traded Carmelo Anthony. It's just a theory, but I think there's something to it. I like it. It's a good one. Quick speed round questions on the next. How often do you think

is Phil Jackson is on the East Coast and the West Coast during the NBA season? What would be the quick breakdown ratio percentages? I think it's like 90-10 that he's in New York. He's not in L.A. that often. He's taking a couple of quick trips out there. He doesn't travel with the team on the road, but he's at every home. I don't think, and I could be wrong. I don't think Phil missed any home games.

Okay. And he's got a place here. I think he's spending much more time in New York. How many college games do you think Phil Jackson scouted over the last five months? in person, I'm going to guess maybe zero. Oh, that's good. That's a good sign for the next. Well, you know, you do have a staff.

You know, you've got, you know, Steve Mills is the day-to-day GM, Bill's the president, right? Yeah. You've got, you know, a whole staff of scouts and personnel folks. Yeah, I mean, maybe not ideal. But, you know, it also doesn't mean he couldn't be watching these guys on TV, watching tape, watching film. Oh, good. He's like me then. That's what I do.

We're dead even. I'm dead even with the guy running the next. Derek Fisher fired too soon, too late, or just the right time? I think that once you've made that investment, once you, you know, it was a leap. It was a reach, but you made that reach. So you at least owe it to him and let him at least finish out and see if he could have turned things around. Their concerns with him obviously went beyond just the day-to-day stuff or beyond the record. But it felt like too soon.

Kurt Rambis is a sweetheart of a guy. I really like doing TV with them. I liked hanging out with him in the ESPN conference room for the day when we did TV. Genuinely liked him. So I feel bad saying this. He's one of the worst coaches I've seen in, like, the last 15 years. He's really terrible at it. And it seems like he might come back.

There's no way they're going to make him that permanent head coach, right? It's been not. Oh, my God. It's like they're trying to kill their fans. Are the Knicks trying to kill their fans? Fans lasted this long after the last 15 years. If Phil Jackson has a problem when it comes to, I think the coaching truth thing is kind of a fallacious notion.

It's more just the fact that Bill has always been kind of an insulated guy. He's a pretty, for as big, for as large as life as he is as a figure, the guy with 11 championship rings, the guy who coached Michael Jordan and Scotty and Shaq and Kobe, commercials and all this, he's really a pretty. pretty quiet retiring personality. He's not a big outgoing guy. He's not that social. And it's not because he's aloof and, you know, doesn't like people.

He's just more of a one-on-one guy, and he's in, he has his comfort zone. And so he doesn't have a whole lot of this massive network in the NBA. And when it comes to time to coach or anybody else, you need to rely on those networks. You need to rely on all the people that you've made contact with over the years and friends of friends and, you know, Sean Marks and Kenny Atkinson never worked together, but Sean Mark's new Mike Bittenholzer. And that leads to Kenny Atkinson, you know, Bill Jackson doesn't have that to a large extent because it's just not who he is, which I think is certainly a handicap when you're a team president or a general manager. I think that's a problem. So when we talk about

candidates, it's not just about finding triangle guys. It's also just about Phil not having a comfort So anytime you can have someone running your team who doesn't scout college games and only talks to coaches that he's comfortable with on a personal level, that usually bodes well for your future, I'm guessing. If you're an NBA team. I think you can, the scouting part of it, as I say, you've got a staff, you trust your staff. They make recommendations. And that's how every team works to an extent anyway. You know, he'll be never saw him play in person. You can overcome that.

I think it's more problematic, the other part of it, where you don't know a lot of coaching candidates yourself. And you're not, you know, that search should be much wider, much broader. Yes. And, you know. And it's a great job. It's the Knicks. That's an awesome job.

You're in New York. You're going to be overpaid because the Knicks overpay anyone. Like, people should want that job. And yet we're looking at current. You've seen the cost of rent here, right? So, you know, those contracts aren't all they're cracked up to be. Oh, that's true. That's a solid point.

The cost of living is ridiculous. Let's be honest, though. I mean, he did draft Porzingis. And you could say, oh, if the sixers, like what I said before, but the bottom line is the Sixers didn't draft him. The Knicks drafted him. And that's going to buy Phil Jackson two years because the Knicks fans, they love Porzingis. But my question is, what if they traded? Tell me this isn't conceivable.

Tell me this doesn't chill your heart and yet also delight you. just headlines and tweets dancing in your head. The Knicks trade Robin Lopez to Brooklyn because Brooklyn has a lot of cap space. They reunite the Lopez brothers. So we've already won there. That's great. We have the Lopez brothers are back.

America's goofiest brother tandem. They get to play together and do Lopez brother things. Like we win on that front. And then the Knicks go out and they sign Dwight Howard with the Lopez money. And now we have Dwight Howard in New York City with the Knicks fans

and with Phil Jackson subliminally sending a messages as he becomes increasingly disappointed in Dwight's effort and character. Isn't that the biggest win ever? Can't we just call this in? Bring back J.R. Smith. Oh, can you come back? All right, add him too.

Great. Yeah. You really do want to drive Knicks fans off the ledge, don't you? I'm all for entertainment. Like, they're not going to win the title, so put Dwight Howard in a Knicks uniform. It feels like his destiny. It really does.

It would be so much fun. And I love the idea of the Lopez brothers together. I mean, I don't know how that works basketball-wise, but I don't even care. Like, just the idea of them in the same arena and the same uniform sitting on the bench doing outs. Give them a reality show. Yeah, can they put a reality show on the Yes Network? Hey, you wrote a column I really liked that nobody nationally had written. And I probably would have taken a crack at it at some point if I had a column.

You wrote about how dysfunctional the clippers were and how everyone in the last. league had real animosity to them. And it was something that I saw just going to the games and watching them on TV. And there was just an edge to, it just everyone they played just seemed salty with the clips. And the clips seemed a little salty with each other. And you wrote a whole piece about how they were rubbing everyone the wrong way. Where do you see them headed? What's their move this summer? We talked a little about trading Blake, but do you, I find it hard to believe they're going to bring back Chris Paul, DeAndre, Jordan, and Blake Griffin for year six. In December, and yeah, it was basically that they're the most hated team in the NBA.

It's almost universal. Like, if you just leave it open and ask any coach GM player, you know, who's the most hated team in the league. Actually, not a bad bunch of guys when you're hanging out. And I just spent about a week and a half around them. I was out there for Kobe's farewell, and then I stayed through for the first couple games of the Clippers Blazers in L.A., and I went to Portland before coming home. Honestly, it's mostly a good group. These aren't really bad guys.

They rub everybody the wrong way. They're not bad guys. Chris Paul, a little edgy, but mostly a pretty, you know, collegial group. It's interesting. I went out there thinking if things go badly, this was, of course, when I first went out there, Chris Paul was still healthy, and Blake was coming back from the quad

and looked like he'd be okay. I still felt like they were a second round out because they were going to go up against the Warriors, and that was that, is this the end, for this group. I left feeling, I just kind of have conflicted feelings about it. It's easy for us to say, and it's a lot of fun for you and I to say, blow them up. You know, you've gone five years. It hasn't worked. You haven't broken through.

It's clearly not working. You've got to try something else. that's easy for us to say and a conversation because then we can start like firing up a trade machine and figuring out who they could get back

and what's the I'm not completely convinced that that should be the case for the clip if you look over the last few years they're actually one of the winningest teams in the NBA in the regular season they have they've faltered in the playoffs

but they have been consistently a 50-55 win team they might have threatened 60 this year if Blake Griffin doesn't get hurt if not for the quad obviously, you know, there's the broken hand too, but he would have missed a lot of time anyway because of the quad.

This is a really, really talented team, and Blake Griffin is not just going to dunk a lot and take a few shots. He's a great playmaker, too. So you actually have two elite playmakers at their position in Paul and Griffin. DeAndre Jordan was always kind of the questionable one to me because I think he's a bit overpaid. I'm not sure that he's always cracked up to be

as a defensive center. The advanced stat, you know, indicate otherwise. Right. But this team wins. And if you want to look at over the last few years of their playoff failures, you know, they're losing to the eventual champion. They're losing to teams when other things have gone awry. Somebody's always getting hurt.

Blake got hurt, I think, in that Memphis series a couple years back, that Rocket Series last year because they didn't have the bench. They now have a better bench. Before you blow up a team or blow up a group, you've got to be convinced that there's a better alternative. And there's something to be said for, you know what, leave a team of elite players together long enough, and the breaks will go their way.

It almost looked like that was going to happen earlier this week. Oh, maybe they get the Warriors without Curry for the first four or five games, and who knows, maybe this is the year they get the breaks their way, and instead, within 24 hours, Chris Paul and Blake Griffin are gone. But there's a case to be made to players together, and they're winning at an elite level in the regular season, you know, maybe that... I guess my issue is I'm not sold on Blake and DeAndre

playing together in the last six minutes of a gigantic basketball game. And we saw it last year in the playoffs in game seven against the Spurs. They just sat DeAndre for the last six minutes. And I'm not sure it makes sense to have all three of those guys. So that's one problem. And then the other problem is,

I think Blake, I mean, it's been documented. this was a really tumultuous year for him. And the fight was horrible for him behind the scenes. They absolutely tried to trade him. And then from everything I'm hearing, it did not go well with that quad injury. And I think there was a real distrust that built up with him and the training staff. And I don't think that story has come out yet, and I'm waiting for it to come out. But I think he feels like they didn't handle it well.

It didn't heal right. he didn't really trust their opinions on stuff. He came back for the playoffs because it was the playoffs, but he was worried he was going to really re-injure it. And he ended up re-injuring it. And you add that to all the behind-the-scenes drama. The fact that him and Chris obviously are not in great shape as teammates. And I really wonder, are they going to trade him this summer?

Like if I had to bet my life on it, and I wouldn't bet my life on this. You're right, that's stupid. If I had to bet on this, and depending on what the odds were, I think I would bet on him getting traded. It almost is starting to feel like too much has happened. What do you think on that? The course of the season, like all these things keep building up, the playoff disappointments, the seeming tension within the lineup with the relationships that don't seem as strong as they should be, although they don't always have to be either. Right. they just have to function well as teammates on the court,

and they've done that at an elite enough level that you let some of those other things go. But yeah, then you throw in the incident, you know, him punching a team staffer and the fallout from that. Well, wait a second. It wasn't just a team staffer. That was like a beloved guy in that franchise. And him and DeAndre and Blake were super, yeah, they were super close. I think that had a real impact behind the scenes.

I don't think, I just don't think that, I think it was a much bigger deal than even we realized covering it and writing about it. And it seemed like a big deal. But I think internally, that was a much bigger deal. That team was, those guys were pretty close and they were close with that guy. And I don't know. It's just weird to go to work a week later. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's Blake. He punched our friend in the face.

Yeah. I don't know. But he and Blake are friends too. And so when you ask other players, what they'll tell you is, those guys are like brothers and brothers spite. Now, it's kind of an easy wave of, you know, everybody basically said, I mean, that wasn't spending a lot of time on that particular subplot. Everybody seems to feel like they've moved on.

It was handled. It needed to be handled. And it didn't really cost Blake games. There's the relationship part of it. But in terms of the games part of it, it didn't cost them games because the quad, as it turns out, wasn't ready anyway. To your point about the trust with training staff, Blake almost, I mean, he kind of threw that out there.

A few weeks ago when he first came back, he kind of alluded to the idea that it wasn't handled right. And that quote probably should have gotten more attention than it did at the time. But a trade, maybe, but it still comes back to, are you better off with a 31-year-old Chris Paul and D'Andre Jordan with his limitations? And whatever you got for Blake, I guess it depends on what you got for Blake. But, you know, Chris Paul's got a window two here now. He's their youngest star, he's their best player, assuming health. because Chris Paul is 31. And he's also the guy that I think the fans are the most invested in.

And they have to take all that into consideration. Chris Paul is now 11 years in the history of point cards. I basically did the same thing with Dwight Howard a couple years ago. When Houston signed Dwight Howard, it's a good signing the first year, right? You know you're getting an All-Star Center. Second year, you're probably getting an All-Star Center. You never know. get bad. But by year three, history says center start to go down. And, you know, they start getting

a little more rigid. Their body starts to break down. It's harder for them. They don't have the same motor. They're not the same kind of elite, crazy athlete. And Dwight Howard declined in year three there. With Chris Paul, she's really tough to be a top six, top seven player year after year as a point guard. It's a lot of miles. You're chasing people. You're getting banged. You're getting knocked down. You're playing 90, 95 games a year, potentially. And I think we're at the tail into his prime. I mean, he might be able to fight it, but he's also, like we mentioned with Carmela before, he's somebody who kind of plays himself in the shape as the beginning of the season goes. He's not one of those guys that you're like, oh, my God. Do you hear about Chris Paul? Chris Paul went to

like Qatar and trained with Navy SEALs. Like he's not that guy. So you could make a case. I don't know who they should trade, but I think the window on the Chris Paul is the top seven guys is getting, we're getting close, you know? We're priced on years and miles.

He did play 74 games this year and 82 last year. So he's done all right in terms of his durability recently. And he's still playing at an elite level. think he's shown any signs of falling off yet. But my feeling about guards in general is that – because big men, you know, can prolong their careers for a while, much more of it. But guards, especially ones who are relying on speed and just general quickness, athleticism, he's not a big leap or anything, but still the quickness matters.

You never – you often don't see it coming. Like, there's no forewarning. Like, a guy is still great one year, and then the next year, boom, he's just gone. They just fall off a cliff. Yeah. And yeah, you don't want to still be investing max money in a guy on the day he falls off that cliff. Well, like Jason, Jason Kidd's a good example.

And he had a really nice second, you know, role player type of extended career. But that was a guy from, you know, 97 and 2006, 2007 was just a freaking freak athlete, great point guard, always a top 10 guy. And then, you know, at some point, it's a guy. going to end. Gary Payton was fantastic in Seattle, got traded in Milwaukee, he's on the Lakers, and it was a completely different guy within a year. And I just think, you know, the advances in science and all the different things these guys do to prolong their careers, like I get it. We've seen things that I certainly never expected. I think LeBron putting 13 straight years at the

level he's put in is freaking unbelievable. I can't, I can't, I almost can't fathom it. I don't understand how he's done 13 straight years like this without breaking down, getting hurt, waning in any way. It's, it's pretty much impossible. So I don't want to rule out Chris Paul, but I do think that we always talk about windows with teams. And, uh, in this clippers window, it's getting there.

You know, you've year five that never made round three. Um, you have two guys with broken hands that have, Wolfield by next year. You have Blake's lower legs an issue. He's looking at the training staff a little funny. The DeAndre thing last year was really weird where he left and he came back. I don't know.

Here's a question. Right? There's no way they should have lost to the rockets. And, you know, things happen. Let's just, they close out the rockets. They go to the conference finals. Hold on. I disagree with you.

I'm a big believer in microcosm games as somebody like, you know, the worst loss of my life was the 86 games. game six world series. And you could stare at it all the time and be like, this is stupid. They got two, they got three straight singles and wild pitch and an error. And that's never going to happen again. On the other hand, our bullpen was a heart attack that whole year.

And like, of course, we were going to get screwed over at the worst possible time by Calvin Chirald named Bob Stanley. Like, it was a microcosm of what was wrong with that team. And that Klipper's Rockets game, you know, yeah, it's a complete fluke. Josh Smith comes in and has an outer body experience, the whole thing. I was there. I went to that game. On the other hand, their bench was terrible.

Their guys played too many minutes in those first two rounds. They played too many minutes in that game. And they died as the game went along. Blake was dead in the fourth quarter. That kind of was a microcosm of what was wrong with that team. So I'm with you. Like if they make the next round, it's great. But I also felt like that was a real problem.

Let's just say that they were. And I had one more decent bench player. I mean, I still think they were the better overall team. And I think when you see what happened to the Rocket since then and where the Clippers have been since then, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, granted, other changes in the off season. The Clippers, let's just give me the hypothetical. Okay. The Clippers beat the Rockets, close them out as they should have, and go to the conference finals.

They lose to the Warriors in, what, five games, maybe six, whatever it is. Are we looking at them differently today saying, hey, they got. to the conference finals. They made it out of the second round. They showed progress. Do we look at them differently from that worth keeping together more because they made a single conference finals and then lost? Or are we still having the same discussion today? Like, does that one round, does that one win mean that much more? So I guess this has happened a few times in NBA history. Like the Celtics are a good example. They, in the late 80s, they could have traded McAil. They could have gotten a lot for McHale. They probably could have traded Parrish. They kept everyone together.

They tried to rebuild with younger guys and try to extend that run. And when you remember, like, what happened in 91 and 92, like, the 91 team was great. It was a really good team. They went hard at the Pistons in a playoff series that they could have won. They had Reggie Lewis coming on at D. Brown. And then the next year, I thought they were also really good. Birds back kind of broke down in that submarine them. But, They were patient with it. They didn't blow it up. I think Utah is another example, you know, where it was like they never thought about trading Stockton and Malone and they shouldn't have.

And they kept kind of grinding away, grinding away, grinding away. And then very late in that era. It was like year 12, year 13 for those guys. They finally made the finals. So maybe that's the model. I can't get past the fact that where basketball is going. I'm not sure you can play Blake and DeAndre at the same time. with folks.

You know, and look, there's nothing to say that Blake might not. I mean, Blake made three, I think, the other night in his last game before he went out. There's nothing to say that Blake, who's developed a very, very good mid-range jumper couldn't extend to three eventually, and maybe that alleviates the Blake Griffin-Di-Jordan issue because one of you in the front court in today's NBA, one of those guys needs to be able to strip the defense a little bit. But, you know, look, the spurs are where they are right now with Lamarcus Aldrich and Tim Duncan. And they're the Spurs, and we can just, you know, we can just say that they break all the rules,

and there is no, there's nothing to apply to them. They're the Spurs. But it's not that a traditional four or five can't still look in the NBA, and if everybody is trying to go small ball, that might be a mistake in itself. You know, maybe the answer is to counter them. And, you know, they wanted to try one of the regrets for the Clipper season, Doc mentioned, was they really wanted to establish a small ball unit with Blake at the five, and him being gone most of the year really prevented them from developing that.

But you could see a pretty potent, you know, case up against DeAndre, or against Dremont, where you now have, you know, a lineup to try to counter the death lineup of the Warriors. I don't know if you can beat that. I don't know if any team is going to be able to do it as well as the Warriors do. But that's not going to last forever either. I mean, how much longer is Andre Aguadala have? How much longer does Sean Livingston have? I'm not saying those guys are ready to fall off the cliff either, and I'm not,

doubt in the warriors, but these things are fragile, as you know. And because these things are fragile, and we don't know where the spurs are after this season, there's the argument for keeping the clippers together, that you are still among the top three or four in the West, and if Durant bolts, you rise up to top three. Durant bolts, Joe Lekub has ruined the Warriors

with his bragging, which ushered in a whole tsunami of karma against them, and maybe you just keep the team together. Who do you have in your final four right now for this year's playoffs, which somehow we went 50 minutes without talking about? My fault. I mean, I can't imagine that the Warriors are not there. Whatever maybe going on with Steph Curry, they're going to make it. I still think it's the Spurs.

I like the Thunder. They were like my preseason pick to basically, I felt like this would be a great bounce back year for them. They've been a little shaky. All those fourth quarter. order collapses in the regular season. I think we're a really bad sign. Yeah, I agree.

I think there's an under, yeah, and there's an, I think there's an undercurrent there. Like, you know, this is where we start playing pop psychologist. I think there's an undercurrent there that there's, Durant's free agency is quietly kind of eating at them. I think there's real concern that he's going to leave, and I think that that undermines you, especially in big moments where a team just doesn't have the same, that same sense of being tied together out there. Well, I wonder if the Spurs just wax them

and they just knock them out in five and they win game five by 22 points. You're going to feel it as that series goes on if it feels like OKC has no chance. I still think, I think it's going to be a great series for this reason. We're due for like kind of the Westbrook series where it's

this is the perfect team for him to just go fucking run a mock you know the spurs don't really have anybody who could stay in front of him you know obviously kawai matches up great with durant

other than that westbrook Westbrook should be able to do whatever he wants in this series the spurs can only do so many team defense principles throw guys at him whatever

they don't have anybody to guard him and everybody I didn't I left I put Westbrook on my second team all NBA Yeah, I put both him and Duran on there because I thought these are two of the best seven guys in the league. And this team could barely beat the clippers for the three spot. And I just really bothered me. I just feel like when you have these two guys, it should be an automatic 60 wins.

And I don't know. I'm just, I'm ready to see it from Westbrook. I don't care about the triple doubles. I don't care about, you know, that he brings it every night, all that stuff. Like, that's great. I already know all that stuff. I want to see him destroy somebody in a playoff series. Like the truly great players every once in a while

just crush somebody in a series. Like, you know, let's just see it. Let's see it this series. This is the series that if he's a great basketball player, I hate to sound like I'm on first take, but I really believe this. Like, at some point you have to just own a series. And I don't know that he's done that yet.

So let's see it this series. Because, yeah, you know that Kauai's going to be on Durant. And if you needed to put Kauai on Westbrook, then who's guarding Durant? So nobody stays in front of Westbrook in this league anyway. Like nobody stops him. And so it is about team defense. It is about cutting off the lane and then seeing if he's going to force it. And Westbrook, that's the danger with Westbrook is that the second you put that challenge to him,

and it's, well, look, it's your series. They don't have anybody who can guard you. My fear with Westbrook is he's going to overdo it because that's his tendency. And it's the forced shots and the driving in traffic. you know, banking on getting a call, that's his undoing a lot of the time. But isn't that? So this series is going to be a referendum. We know he's great.

I would never dispute that. But how great is he? Because I think what San Antonio is going to do, they're going to beg him to shoot threes. They're going to play five feet off him. He's, I figured it out like three weeks ago of everyone who's taken more than 1,500 threes. He's the fourth worst three-point shooter of all time, of all time, of anyone. Wow.

And the spurs are just going to say, here, take them. Take as many as you want. Take 15. We don't care. Keep shooting them. Because they'll win the series if he does that. And I want to see how he solves that, especially in the last five minutes. He's so competitive.

He's so emotional. He's so intense. He gets so into it. He wants it so bad. And the spurs are smart enough to flip it on them. You know? I agree. I agree.

You don't see anyone, do you see anyone? I think they emerge. Do you see anyone beating Cleveland in the East? I don't. My theory on Cleveland was always, if somebody was going to beat them, it was going to be because everything broke their way, you know, that you've got everything firing all cylinders and the cavaliers somehow shot themselves in the foot

because the Cavaliers, their chemistry is still really weird, right? Like, I don't think Kevin love Kyrie Irving and LeBron James really love playing together. And that's what. where no matter what happens, anything short of a championship, one of those guys is going this summer. Like if you said, you know, the gun to the head scenario on Blake Griffin, I think gun to the head he probably stays. But on the Cavaliers, somebody's gone. It's not LeBron. It's one of the other two, most likely love. But so my thought is if whoever it is, you know, Toronto, Charlotte, Miami, I don't know. I mean, it's, none of these teams have been altogether impressive.

I don't think anybody can beat the Cavaliers of full strength. I don't think any of the have the talent to beat them. But if the Cavaliers got into one of those weird funks where those three guys aren't really playing that well together, then it leaves them a little vulnerable. I still don't think that's going to happen, though. I think it's Cleveland. We agree on this, and we also agree that if Cleveland loses,

it will be more because they self-destructed versus what the other team had. I think the team that could beat them potentially is Atlanta. I actually like the Atlanta team. I was impressed by them against the Celtics. Like, you know, they should have won first. five of the six games. The Celtics shouldn't have won game four. They're down two with 20 seconds left. They get a layup. Jeff Teague just dribbles out the clock basically and then they win in

overtime. But they were just a more talented team, especially after Bradley went out. I think Atlanta's good. I think they're smart. I think they will kind of stay the course. And if there's a team that is kind of built to just make Cleveland beat themselves, it's probably them. But Cleveland, it's It's just hard to imagine them not being able to get through this next two rounds. That would be embarrassing. That was how I thought about the Hawks last year. Granted, they had a bunch of injuries in that series. But that was how I thought about the Hawks last year.

That was the team that was built to potentially take down the Cavaliers. And the Hawks, I thought, were better last year. They weren't by that point. They'd kind of been, you know, on a downward trend even going into the playoffs. But, you know, they had to Marie. Carol then. They don't have a Damari Carol now to go throw at LeBron, even at their best

to combat Cleveland, unless Cleveland's shooting itself in the foot. And, you know, Teague has those moments flubs it, and Shrewder's a little unpredictable at times. I don't know. The Hawks, this version of the Hawks beating the Cavaliers. They need

some dysfunction on the other end. They would need to, like, steal one of the first two games where Kyrie just hogs the ball in the last minute and LeBron mad about it after and then things spiral. I think that would be... Exactly. That would be how it goes.

But if you're Cleveland, things are lining up pretty nicely. The clippers have basically been extinguished. The spurs in OKC, only one of those teams can advance. And then the Steph Curry thing, who knows? You know, I know he's coming back, but it's going to be rusty. He's going to, you know, he's lower legs bugging him. And it does seem like they're catching some breaks.

I'm excited. Round one was pretty bad. I think round two is going to be going to be pretty good and possibly great. Well, this was fun. I'm glad we did this. I hogged you for an hour. No, no worries.

What's your next? Making up for lost time. Are you working on a story? You writing anything? What's next for you? Early next week, I think. And then nothing ready to pop yet. Okay, fun.

Howard Beck, you can read him at Bleacher Report, and you can follow him at Twitter. At Howard Beck. This is really fun. Thanks for being the first guest on the ringers NBA show. No, that's just fantastic, Bill. Thanks so much for having me. All right, take care.

All right, we have one in the books. That was the Ringers NBA show. Come back next week. We're going to have a whole bunch of stuff, multiple hosts, a whole bunch of topics. We'll have your lottery prep, maybe a little draft preview, all kinds of stuff. Tate's nodding happily. Tate's excited to talk about Charlotte if they advanced around. too. Congratulations on that, by the way.

When a Tate's seven favorite NBA teams has a chance to make it to round two. We will be back next week with this podcast. You can also, the BS podcast will be back two of those. The Ringers NFL podcast, don't forget to subscribe to that. Don't forget to subscribe to Channel 33. Don't forget to subscribe to Shackhouse, our golf podcast with Jeff Shackleford and Joe House, presented by Callaway. And don't forget about After the Thrones on HBO.

now late late late Sunday night after what Chris Ryan has called quote a doozy unquote of a second episode enjoy the weekend and and shout out to the Celts for showing a lot of heart in that round one series which is not a lot of great NBA players I was proud of them and good job by the Boston fans way to represent have a good weekend see you next week