The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 13: Game 5 and Draymond's Suspension

Episode Date: June 13, 2016

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons and longtime pal Joe House on Draymond Green's suspension, Kyrie Irving's Game 4 flop, GSW's chances to close out the series, and if Andre Iguodala is the rich man's Robert Horry. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

to a special edition Monday of the Ringer NBA show. It is brought to you by any given Wednesday, my new HBO show that launches on June 22nd, Wednesday, 10 p.m. Please don't forget. This is probably my only chance ever to have an HBO show, I'm guessing. We are also brought to you by The Ringer.com, which is presented by Miller Lite. We are in our third week, and we have great stuff on sports, pop culture, tech, a whole podcast network that features eight podcasts right now. Life is good here at the Ringer, and we are now going to do an NBA preview of game five. An emergency podcast, Joe House, you're doing double duty.

You did Shackhouse today, and I dragged you on for 15 minutes. Let's talk about game five really quickly. Your thoughts on the Dremont suspension. Yeah, we had to get on today because we're going to be crowning an NBA champion this evening. We had to get a little preview in before we crown the Golden State Warriors with the unprecedented historical. I know what you're doing. Championship season. I know what you're doing.

You have Cleveland money and you're trying to chinks the Warriors. I know what you're doing. I think the Draymond Green suspension was warranted, and while the timing of it was unfortunate, I think it was about time for the league to... A nutshots? It has been. I mean, how many nutshots do we have to let go by?

It does seem like three. It does seem like three should be the limit for nutshots. Maybe two? I think three strikes you're out, three nut strikes you're out. Yeah, we're there. I mean, this playoff, he is a tremendous talent. I adore watching him. Yeah.

But the antics, the antics, the antics, he needs to tone that stuff down a little bit. I know, but that's, that's part of what makes him him. I don't think he can, you can't tone it down. It's the same thing, like when people tell Westbrook, you know, you just got to be in more control, you got to run the offense, you got to be more of a point guard. You are who you are. You should embrace who you are. That's who Draymond is. And we guessed on Friday on the BS report, I had three of my any given Wednesday writers. And around the 15 minute mark, I predicted that, and Lord knows I made a ton of bad predictions in my life. I predicted that if the calves,

it looked like they were going to lose, they're going to try to go Draymond into the crucial technical that would get him suspended for game five. And that's exactly what LeBron did. He totally goaded him into it. He stepped over him. You don't do that on a basketball court. Draymond reacted the way Draymond reacts. And I gotta say that was a weirdly brilliant move by LeBron James. I was impressed. Well, it was his best play of the game because he was terrible in the fourth quarter. I mean, what is going on with that Cleveland team? I can't forgive them. They've really ruined this NBA finals. I'm going to be mad at them all summer long. You're just mad because you lost money on them, you're dumbass. You know, you're a dumbass. You bet on

them like a dumbass. We sound I told you not to. You were like, I'm going against the grain. Everyone loves the words. I'm going to go against the grain. We know who else goes against the grain? Cleveland's offense. It wasn't going against the grain. Cleveland had a very successful formula. They had a demonstrated documented ability to navigate their 10, 10-legged, 10-limbed approach to offense. What are you talking about? Cleveland's last year showed us how to be competitive with an underman's team. I'm not going to get off Stephen A about it, but look, they, here are the elements of flowing down Golden State, ball control,

run time off of the shot clock. Okay. Have big guys on the court for offensive rebound. Sure. At least that formula made them competitive. I'm not saying they would have won. All I want it was a competitive series. I like that formula.

They have not been competitive. Taila did exactly the opposite of everything you just, listed. He tried to play a really quick pace. Tyloh and Tyloo. Thai law and Tyloo. I'm officially turning into my dad. Tyloo did everything that you did not recommend right there. He tried to play a really fast pace, which is a disaster. He didn't learn anything from last year's finals. I still think last year's finals was a little fluky only because I think the Warriors had deer in the headlights the first couple games, so it's tough to gauge. But I haven't like,

anything they've done. And I don't know why LeBron's just not either the four or the five at all times. Every minute that they play him at small forward is a dumb minute, in my opinion. Just use him for what he is at this point of his career, which is the best power forward in basketball. That's what he is. That's the one place where they have a pronounced advantage. Huge advantage. ...in him at the four or five. And they can't figure out a way to run offense through that dynamic. I would post him up every single time. And either you double it or he gets to the rim or he gets someone in foul trouble.

I may or may not have some financial incentive for the Warriors to win this. Every time they post LeBron up, I get nervous. Because if you guard him with Dremont, he's actually the one guy in the league who's Dreyman's size who can actually kind of do some stuff. If you double him, he can pass out of it. if I'm the Warriors and he's 27 feet from the basket trying to get to the rim, I know I can stop that. I have the best defensive team in the league,

but I'm not sure how to stop him on the low post. I wanted to get out of our buddy, Kirk Goldsbury, to see if you do a shot chart for old times to take a fissmal Cleveland performance from game four. It wasn't just fourth quarter. It was the whole half. Did you see the stats?

LeBron or Kai Reid took 33 of the 38 shots? and actually felt like it turned into like almost a competition. It was almost, it was like they're competing against each other. Toilet bowl or a donut. One or the other. It's going to look like one of those, too. No, it would have been a toilet ball with the plunger sticking out of it in Memorial of Doc Rivers' 2006 offense.

They document the moving hole, right, with a zero. It was going to be, you know, all around the perimeter, empty holes. What would you call that the Scarface? Yeah, the moon. It's like a picture of the moon. I would have played LeBron at the four. I would have played Kevin Love seven minutes a half. I would have tried to put as many shooters out there as I possibly could.

I would have posted up LeBron as much as I could. I'm trying to think what else I would have done. Part of the challenge was the Golden State started running a slight. different version of their pick and roll in the second half, and especially against when Cleveland had a combo of Richard Jefferson and Kyrie and J.R. Smith on the floor at the same time, and that's how all of a sudden Clay and Steph are having wide open looks at three. Well, and also, I mean, that's... Cleveland had no answer for it. The reality is Kyrie murdered them in the second half.

That game went from, it looking like Kyrie was going to put up like 47 and have one of the those magical Kyrie games where it looks like he's one of the best eight players in the league and it completely flipped and he was atrocious on both ends and if he's not scoring and if he's not creating it's just really tough to have him out there he's not good enough defensively can we over hyperboise now a little bit that was by far we're i don't think there's can be any disagreement around this that was his the most important game in his entire basketball career it totally was no more important game for Kyrie Irving than game for game four at home in the NBA finals.

Do you agree with that? Yeah, he's young. You know, the history of young players in the league, I'm not willing to say that was like some sort of make-a-break game for him. But I do agree with you that they had to win that game. He had to play awesome in it. I do blame his coach a little bit. The minutes were astonishing to me looking at it after.

Like, when you're home... Yeah, well, that's right. That's a great point. Yeah, when you're home, home is your first. friend. Home is where your role players come through. Home is where like that Oklahoma City game I went to game five last round, you know, most spates comes in and gets 13 points in nine minutes. That's the stuff that happens at home. Those guys don't come through on the road. So at home. And Verrajao. Yeah. And Verrajao, that's another example. Yeah. At home, that's where your eighth, ninth,

10th men become important. Like if you remember in the second round, when OKC fought back against the Spurs in game four, remember Randy Foy and waiters and Cantor? Like, they all made plays. Like, you need those guys in a couple stretches. They get the crowd excited. They get the starters excited. To play LeBron 46 minutes to me with all the stuff he was doing on both ends, it's insane.

And that's why he wasn't shooting the ball well anyway. But some of those jump shots he took, like they were hitting the rim and going to the right. you know, he was way off. He wasn't close. Yeah, Kyrie's shots didn't look any better. He had 43 minutes, I think, didn't he? Didn't he end up with LeBron? This is the thing.

I felt like it was a little bit litmus testy, a little bit litmus testy. I agree. I agree. No, I'm with you. I agree. I just think... I'm taking your point that it's not necessarily a referendum on what kind of player he's going to be because he is still young, and they continue to build around him, right?

Is he fun to play with? I keep coming back to that with him. Would you want to play basketball with him? Like, let's say we're in college and we go to the heart center. We walk up. It's freezing cold. It's a 12-minute walk. We walk up.

We make it. We're so excited to get in a game. And we have to play with Kyrie. And then the next game isn't, like, if we lose, we don't get to play for an hour. We just have to sit there and wait for, like, four other teams to play before we play. Do we feel good about our chances with Kyrie? We know we're not going to get the ball. we know he's going to go one-on-one.

I'm already bummed out. I haven't even played it. I'm bummed out. We're pissed. Yeah. We walked up in the cold to watch him play one-on-one-on-four. Yeah, we're basically, we're his props. We're like, all right, we'll rebound for you while you go one-on-one the whole time.

Like, people hate playing with guys like that. And I don't think it's too late for him to change. But when you're just a shoot-first point guard who goes to the rim like he does, but then in this series, you got Dremont and you got Boget, and you have all these guys that their worries are actually good at protecting the rim. Set up your teammates. Try to make people better.

Jair Smith. Well, especially absolutely, I love the two. Yeah, because it was for both sides. Both sides were getting cream. No bailout. Like, LeBron and Lou were complaining about the fouls after the game. Do you see how many fouls LeBron had himself? LeBron had 15 fouls in that game.

Like, he should settle down. I don't think at this point of his career, I really think that LeBron's inability to realize that his game is subtle. shifted against great defensive teams is his biggest problem. Because I do think he's a powerful now. The face-up jumper in the fourth quarter is an eye-gouging experience. Between to 24 feet and facing up and not making anybody work hard and early in the shot clock. It's a defeat. It's a concession.

And the thing they have in their favor, other than Dremont not playing in this game, which is important because I felt like he was the finals MVP through four games. you know, you can catch the Warriors on a night where Curry and Thompson aren't playing well. And we've seen it happen. It was game three. Yeah. Game three, they got that. You can, those guys can go six for 22 combined from three and you're in the game.

So, you know, they have a real chance in game five. But I'm going the other way. I don't know whether you reverse jinx or not at the top, but I think they finished in that. I think they're better. I think they know they're better. I think there was a LeBron Kai Reet thing that happened in that second half. half that is probably going to manifest itself this summer where it's just like I you know I don't think

lebron liked how that went down in the second half where he's competing with chances to create and i don't think he's willing at this point of his career to turn it over to somebody like kairi unless kairi is lights out and he's not and i don't know how they fix that that that's right he shouldn't he shouldn't the only time he should ever um be turning it over is if he needs rest of game break because he's playing 46 out of 48 minutes, and that guy's got the hot hand. That's a very nice weapon to have, by the way. He's been looking for that weapon. He had it in D. Wade and a little bit of Chris, you know,

kind of recuperate and recovered while he's actually playing in the games. I blame the – I blame LeBron. This is, you know, his fingerprint and his footprint. You know, they fired Blatt at his beckon, at his beckoning, and, you know, here's the team that you wanted. And the coach. They're not competitive. They're not competitive.

The coach... That's the thing I'm most disappointed by. Right, with that coach. That game four was finally going to be the game that I've been wanting these whole finals, hotly contested. You know, we're going to have a competitive fourth quarter, and then it wasn't competitive at all. I know.

Those two dangling standing out there 18 to 24 chucking at the side of the rim. Yeah, but you've watched the Warriors all year. You could tell when they haven't, when they don't. I felt, yeah, I didn't even care what the score was in the first half. Like Curry, you could see he was on his game. You could see Draymond was doing Draymond things. I wasn't worried. Sal and I, if gambling had been legal, we might have made the biggest basketball bet I've ever made in my life on one game in that game on the Warriors.

Because they were underdogs in game four, which was to me like a twice-in-a-decade chance to take advantage of real stupidity. The team is like 87 and 15. How are they underdogs ever in any scenario? Right. Yeah. But I just wasn't worried because you can tell what that worst team. I think tonight, the fact that Draymond got suspended, I think that's going to piss them off. I think there's maybe 9% of this would be fun to win the title with Draymond suspended just because this team loves each other. It would be fun to just make fun of him for the next 10 years that they didn't need him for the punching game. I really think these guys are all friends, and I think that would be a funny thing for them. Hey, Jemond, hey, man, you know, you keep talking, but all I know is you weren't there when we won the title. And I think they would, I think they'd like that stuff. So my thing at the top was not a reverse jinx.

I really do think they're going to close out. For many of the reasons you just mentioned, I think tonight is, you know, the effect of the suspension is a galvanizing one. They rally around moments like this. They've demonstrated an interchangeability. flexibility that's unparalleled him tonight. That's where I'm coming down. You literally bet on it. You literally bet that he's going to have

a good game today. I did do that. That's true. I think he's going to be the finals MVP. His defense on LeBron has been sensational. It's been nothing short of tremendous. Let's talk about this and then we've got to go because I promised a quick podcast. I think

Iggy has become this generation's Robert Hoery. How about that? I think he's better, too. I mean, he's obviously better players of Max guy. I feel like that's slightly disrespectful to Iggy. Well, so, all right, here's my defense. I don't mean from a talent standpoint, I'm not comparing what they do for their respective teams.

I'm just talking about for his generation, the guy who's at one level during the season, and then another level when you need him, and then another level in big moments and in big playoff series. And the stuff that he does is so underappreciation. He's the player that we always wanted him to be. Remember, we would get frustrated with him in Philly because he was put in the position of being the number one option

slash franchise guy, and he wasn't that. This is who he is. He's not that. He should be your third best player or your fourth best player on a championship team and a guy who doesn't have to create everything offensively and a guy who just does the things that he does. Well, and he's got all that old dog stuff in him now, too. He's been through all the battles.

He's the season to that. on that team. He's a stabilizing force. I really do think he's going to have a great game tonight. Now, I'm not just saying plus 750 for series MVP. Well, that's the thing. I'm not to say that's for that reason. Well, you can't say he's underrated if he wins two finals MVP,

so he's actually probably properly rated. But the defense... I mean, at 8 to 1, Daddy's got to have a little piece of that. The defense that he played on Durant and LeBron and back-to-back series will go down historically, and I think, you know, you look at the

history of the league and some of the guys who weren't the best guys who were super important for championship teams. And they range from like the Michael Cooper slash Robert Horry types to guys like Sam Jones. Derek Fisher, I think is a good example of somebody who wasn't that good statistically but had a knack for kind of being in the right place and the right time and coming up big. Iggy's on the higher end of that. He's not as good as Sam Jones. but he's kind of on that next level of really great guys who have just been on great teams and done great things and been responsible partly for the success.

You know, and I think that's not where he was two years ago. This was a guy I went to Philly. He was in the Dwight Howard trade. He went to Denver. Signed with Golden State as a free agent, it felt like a little bit of a consolation prize when they didn't get Dwight Howard. And he is now reinvented himself

as this decades whatever you call that Robert Horrie role. He's better than Robert Horry. Yeah, he's better than Robert Horrie. He doesn't have... He needs a nickname. Like, Big Shot Rob.

He needs his own nickname. Yeah, Iggy isn't enough. He doesn't like Iggy. He doesn't like Iggy. I don't like that. Something good with Iggy. He doesn't like Iggy. He likes to be called Dre, apparently.

That's what I heard. Well, there's a lot of Dre's out there. I heard a word on the street. We have some Warriors Intow's that there's there's going to be a lot of James Michael McAdoo tonight. I'm happy with that. Me too. I liked him in that game for.

Me too. When you talk about role players who are guys that can step up and help fill that void, JMM is one of those, I think, in front of the Golden State crowd. I mean, I think like him, Livingston, Spades. We're going to see a bunch of that. Verjeal, we're going to, all those guys are going to be flying. And I think as much as anything because, you know, Draymond got suspended, so they all step up, and that's just the way that team works.

The Verjao thing is interesting because he was on Cleveland. They traded him to basically dump his salary. I think they even put a first-round pick into that trade and then replaced him with Cheney and now he's coming back to haunt them, potentially. He's already hurt them in this series, and potentially he could be the difference tonight if he does the defensive rebounding Verjao stuff. He's playing as well as he's played in a while, and the question. question with him was never how he played when he was on the court as much as could he stay in

the court, you know? And if he's surrounded by shooters, you're playing four on five of them offensively, but as long as you have four other guys who can score, he's a real asset. He's averaging, I haven't looked this up, but I bet he's averaging nine minutes a game, and he's in precision he could be in. In many respects, the same thing I would say about igual, although totally different, you know, contribution to the team and totally different say these vets come in here and be in the absolute positively best situation. I mean, Bogot. So to recap, we think Igudala has a chance to win finals MVP.

Steph, if he puts up like 42 tonight, he'll win it. Because, I don't mean he's the best guy in two of the four games, and that'll be enough. And then also, everybody feels, well, two of the four wins. Everybody feels bad about his shoes. I think maybe just to make him feel better. Jimmy Kimmel. It was like the widest moment. It makes me so happy.

Oh, so I went, and they told me, they were like, hey, man, we have these new curry shoes, but they're size 11. You're a size 10 and a half. I was like, I don't care. I'll tie them tight. I'm so excited to put them on. Yeah, what you're talking about? And guess what?

They're super comfortable. And guess what else? They're meant for people like you and me. We're dads. Oh, no. They were great. I liked them. Middle-aged white dudes.

Yeah. You know what they look good with? A pair of khakis. That's going to be. I'm going to be the... These shoes, I mean, every joke's been made, but when you actually see them and you put your feet in them, my wife's dad, I think, is 77.

If I bought them these shoes, he would be so excited. He'd feel a little bit hip because they're Curry's shoes, but they're also exactly the type of shoes he'd wear. It's an unbelievable misfire, and I think it backfires in the other way, and it probably becomes a successful shoe. I think they've created a shoe for us, House. They're going to be quite a lot.

like about them. You know, the referee should wear black, but there's the same thing in white. Yeah, maybe the reps will start wearing this. That'd be a good outcome. So to recap, we think Draymond should have been suspended. I think LeBronos should have gotten a flagrant one because I think if you step over somebody in a basketball court, you're trying to start trouble. If somebody does that and pick up, it's a fight. It's a provocation. Don't put your groin area on my head. Just don't in any scenario. And we think the Warriors crowd comes through tonight. We like Maccadown and Verrageau, McAdoe and

Verrageau, and maybe a little Ozil. And I think the Warriors will make fun of Dremont for the next 10 years that they won the title without them. It'll be hilarious. Joe House. That's a good one. What's Shackhouse about this week? U.S. Open preview?

Yeah, I would say so. There's only the nation's championship being played this week. It's early days yet for the bets. We discussed some of my gambling angle, some thoughts that Jeff Shackleford had. We're getting ready for the broadcast as well. We had a nice interview with Brian Curtis of The Ringer. He wrote a nice piece about Joe Buck, so we got his take on Joe Buck as second try at a U.S. Open broadcast this season.

And it was a nice hour. I'm going to tweet out some of my bets, though. I wasn't quite ready yet. You know, noontime Monday is still a little early. I haven't gotten all my spreadsheets together yet. Well, America, listen to that Shackhouse podcast because House picked the Masters correctly and actually follows the stuff and knows who he's talking about. The U.S. Open.

Although you're not man enough to go, even though Callaway was willing to bring you, and you have all kinds of hookups left and right. Brah? Brough? I told you. I'm playing in a – I have a commitment. I play in a – yeah, I called you, brough. I play in a member guest here in the Washington, D.C. area, the DMV. I made a commitment. It's just with a group of my dear friends. We get together this Father's Day weekend every year. U.S. Open weekend. It's a wonderful time. And I have my outfits already laid out. I'm pimping some Callaway gear. I got some other nice accoutrema. I mean, you know, I rock at ABAH. Always be handsome, Bill Simmons. Joe House, thank you as always. And for everybody out there, we check out the Ringer podcast network where it has things like Shackhouse and Channel 33 and the watch

and keeping it 1600 and all kinds of good stuff. Check out the ringer.com. And don't forget any given Wednesday, premiering June 22nd, 10 o'clock, HBO. I'll be back with a Bill Simmons podcast. later in the week. Thanks for listening. And good luck to the Warriors

because we might have financial incentives to hope you win today. Good luck, good luck. Good luck.