The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 43: Leaguewide Look With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: November 15, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss overarching themes and intriguing developments 10 games into the season, including the Clippers' bench play (5:00), the issue with high-usage players (12:00), Luke Walton's Lakers (18:00), Willie Cauley-Stein's trade value (22:00), Malcolm Brogdon's impressive rookie season (33:00), DeMar DeRozan's improved scoring (38:00), and the Timberwolves' surprisingly good offense (42:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the NBA show is brought to you by Bose as the official sound of the NFL. Bose gets players closer to their peak performance and gets you closer to them. How? With powerful products like their quiet, comfort 35 wireless headphones. These are Bose's best headphones yet. No noise, no wires, just your music and you. Welcome to another edition of the Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varden.

Joining me today is the Ringer's own Kevin O'Connor. What's up, Kevin? Not a lot, Chris. What's going on with you? Nice timing on your article yesterday, praising the Los Angeles Clippers for why they are so awesome because their bench is so awesome, or at least in part, and then they go out and another bludgeoning last night. They beat the Nets 127 to 95. Let's just talk about the Clippers so far. They're 10 and 1.

They're the only team in the league that is top 5 in offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency. I think it's fair to say we all went into the season thinking, you know, this is going to be the Warriors and everyone else. And at least so far it does not appear it's going to be the Warriors and everyone else. It's at least going to be the Warriors and the Clippers and everyone else in the West. Yeah. So before the season, Doc Rivers said he didn't think there was much separation between the Warriors and the Clippers. And I think a lot of other people kind of just laughed at that.

I mean, it was just kind of a silly statement. And maybe that'll turn out to be true. But so far it hasn't been the case. The Clippers have been the best team in the NBA so far. And as they always have been, their big three, their starting lineup is really, really, really unbelievable with DeAndre Jordan, Chris Paul, JJ Redick, Blake Griffin. That's no surprise. But what is a surprise is their bench. It has been just unbelievable so far this year.

Doc Rivers was going to experiment with staggering Blake Griffin and Chris Paul to keep them on the court at all times, but that he hasn't had to do that because their bench has just been so good. It's not really the way they're scoring with Austin Rivers and Raymond Felton and Marie Spates. It's the way they're defending. They're switching all screens. They've just been really tenacious on the ball. And that's allowing them to play all their stars together and still maintain their leads with their really, really strong bench so far early on this year. You had this note that when those guys play together, which you would not think would be a successful lineup necessarily, Crawford Rivers Felton, and then spates and Johnson, right?

I mean, that's obviously a small lineup, but the fact that, like, when those five guys are playing together, they're dominating. Like, they've got, the numbers were crazy. Were they, like, plus 14 or something? Yeah, I think after last night, they're plus 15,

which means they're outscoring opponents by 15 points per 100 possessions. And that's still way worse than their regular starting five, but that's still, if you look at all five-man units around the league that have played at least 50 minutes or so. That's still one of the better lineups in the league in terms of net rating,

which is the difference between offensive and defensive rating. So yeah, that unit is just absolutely slaying it right now. And will that sustain? I don't know. I mean, we don't know that for sure. We really don't. Raymond Felton, Austin Rivers, Jamal Crawford, Wesley Johnson, Marie Spates. Those aren't really names that you'd expect to be dominating like that,

especially when they aren't playing with one of the stars on the team. But really, I mean, we have to give those guys time. Maybe it will sustain. Maybe it won't. I'd kind of lean towards that it won't, at least, on the defensive end. I think, if anything, they could be a little bit better offensively than they have been so far, because those guys really aren't shooting the ball that well at all. So we'll see what happens.

I think at some point the Cliffers might have to shuffle the rotation a little bit. They're 10 and 1. We'll see. But if you're them right now, it's really nice for them to have the start. But that's always been their deal, right? You just had to wait until you got six, seven minutes into the game. They put in the bench, and you could bludgeon their bench, right? If they're benching, forget if they're going to be a big positive,

if they're just not a big net negative, right? If they can just play even, hold the fort, right? Then that team's got a chance to be pretty damn good. And I'll say this, Doc Rivers gotten beat up a lot for his general managing skills. I think it's fair to say he did a good job this offseason. He really did. Well, yeah, I mean, I think, I think Doc rightfully was bashed for a lot of the moves that he's made over the years, bringing in just guys that are proven, meh, players, right? And he did that again this summer because, understandably, he doesn't have a lot, much of a choice.

The guys that he has take up so much of the cap room that he's forced to sign players that are on league minimum contracts. he can't sign guys for for 10 million dollars to have a star six man come off the bench he can't he doesn't have that ability having so many stars on the roster so it's hard to be a general manager and bring in talent off the bench that's why this year again i thought some of the names he brought in were those same names the same names were familiar with brian and baysan braymond phelton just guys like that who really aren't anything special but so far it's working and I think more than anything it's just the way they're switching screens it's a small lineup but all those guys are quick laterally Wesley Johnson has been really good I think

and Marie Spate somehow is defending better than he ever has it seems we'll see if it sustains I it's nice to see though because they have quickly quickly become a dominant team not because of just their starters but their bench is the big

differentiator so far well Spate's signed a minimum deal, right? I mean, he got a very low contract, so he's got a lot of money on the line. Yeah, absolutely. He'll switch everything, Kevin. He'll switch everything this year. Yeah, these guys, yeah, you're right. You bring up a good

point that some of these guys, they're on league minimum contracts, and they're getting an opportunity to cash in. Yes, exactly. You compared this, and their depth so far to how reliant teams are, like

the Rockets, like the Thunder, on their respective stars, James Hardin and Russell Westbrook. And he kind of talked about how the thunder are miserable when Westbrook is not on the court. And Harden is having this video game statistical season. And yet they really struggle without him on the court. If you can just speak to what we have seen so far, you and I at the beginning, before the season even started, you had done a bunch of research on super high use. guys in the NBA and the lack of success that their teams have ultimately had.

And it seems like at least so far this season, they're both right around 500 teams. But it seems like that's playing out, right? That when you have somebody that you are so relying on, that it uses up so many of your possessions that you are dead without them. Yeah. I'll pull up that stat right now. We are really seeing that pan out, especially with Oklahoma City in Houston. over the last 40 years of the NBA,

only 17 players have ever had a usage rate of over 35. They finish the season with usage over 35. Can you just explain usage rate to, for anybody out there that's like, what the hell is a usage rate? So essentially, we're talking about the Kobe Bryant seasons where he's just dominating the ball

and it's all on his shoulders. We're talking about Alan Iverson in 2001. We're talking about guys that they wore, the source of everything for that team where there wasn't really other guys on the roster they could rely on. And so the number is percentage of possessions that you are responsible for. Yes. It's a percentage of possessions used.

So that factors in on the offensive end, points, scored, assists, et cetera, turnovers. Yeah. So we're talking about guys that had just high usage years. Kobe, Westbrook, Wade, Jordan. So this year, Westbrook, I believe, has a usage over 35, and chances are he'll sustain that because they rely on him for absolutely everything. And we're seeing the effects of that when they're without him. When Westbrook is on the court, as you would expect, they are a tremendous team. They are outscoring teams by, I believe, six points per 100 possessions, which isn't outstanding.

But the difference is when he's off the court, they're at their worst. They're being outscored by 20 points per 100 possessions. So they are a great team when Westbrook's on the court. And they are worse than the Sixers when he's off the court. And it's not breaking news that the thunder would be better with Russell Westbrook on the court. It's not breaking news that the rockets are way better with James Hardin on the court. I think everybody understands that when star players on the court, the team is better. The difference is with the clippers, they are playing well when their stars are off the floor.

when all three of them are off the floor. But the thunder and the rockets, they are not getting the same benefit of having just good depth that's really keeping them afloat when those guys are on the bench. Yeah, well, a part of it then, and you and I spoke to this before the season, is you look up and down the Oklahoma City roster at least and you go, all right, who else is scoring every single night, right? Like, who is the guy that you are going to count on? Because you've got to get X amount of points to be able to win these games on a,

on a nightly basis. And it was hard to find, like, when we were going up and down their roster. Like, who else? Like, there is going to be a tremendous load on Westbrook, and he has carried it so far this year. But it's kind of, it's kind of playing out how, at least I thought it would, where it's like, all right, some nights, you know, there's just not somebody that every single night. Or if Westbrook has a down night, like, if he doesn't go huge, that's going to pick up the, that's going to pick up the slack like they used to, you know? Yeah, and the funny thing is, some of their guys, especially the younger guys, are playing a little bit better than I expected him to. I mean, Sabonis, he's not a guy you necessarily will lean on to create for you.

He's not that guy. But someone like him, I think maybe that's a good sign for them down the line. If he's performing well, he's especially shooting a three well. But one of the issues so far is if you look at on-off splits, so we talked about Victor Oladipo before the season and how important it. was for him to have success. He's performed very well when Westbrook is on the floor. He's shooting 37% from 3, around 45% from 2-point range,

playing fairly well efficiently. But without Westbrook on the floor, those numbers are going way down because they're relying on him to create for himself. He has an effective field goal percentage of 33 when Westbrook is off the floor, compared to 52 when he's on. So look, that's the guy that you need to maintain his levels of efficiency as a score and playmaker when Westbrook's on off the floor for seven or eight minutes a game.

But he's not doing that. And that's what they really need for him to be that guy when Westbrook's taken his breather. So as you chronicled, there were 17 guys that have these insanely high usage rates throughout years. And as I recall, the level of team success outside of like the Iverson year where he carried that team to the final. and there's been maybe one or two others. Generally, those teams have not had a lot of team success. Like the players have had crazy years, but the team has not, that has not been a recipe for success over the course of the years.

Yeah. So yeah, sorry, I should have finished that stat off earlier. So over the last 40 years, 17 players finished with a usage over 35 or greater. Of those players, only one player led his team to the finals. five loss in the opening round, six missed the playoffs entirely, including Westbrook's 45 win Thunder a couple years ago. And of those 17 teams, they finished on average with a win percentage of 52, which equates to about 43 wins per year.

So those teams were all about 500 teams. And we're seeing that so far with Oklahoma City and Houston with two super high usage rate guys where they are the source for everything on their rosters. and without them they are really not that good. They're average. Rockets are 6 and 4. The Thunder are 6 and 5. They're just slightly above average so far.

And they need contributions from their guys off their bench. The Thunder need Victor Oladipo to really step his game up when he's not playing with Westbrook. The Houston Rockets really need Patrick Beverly to get back and be good when he's healthy. And maybe they'll stagger him and James Hardin. I think they should. I think Beverly maybe could be a little bit more effective off the bench.

even than he has been as a starter. And he's been pretty good the past couple years, too. They just need guys to elevate their game off the bench, or they need to find other players through trades. Something in a billion years I would have never thought I would read, even 10 or 11 games into the season, is you talking about Westbrook and Hardin and their high usage rates, and you're talking about how bad their teams are when they are off the court,

and you juxtapose it against a team that is using its depth to its great advantage, and you bring up the Lakers. I was like, I mean, like, who would have ever, who would have guessed that they would be the source of, like, praise? Even even, even at this point in the season that you're like, hey, you know what? They should actually, it'd be better if they were more like the Lakers. Like, what planet am I? Is it the super moon? Yeah, yeah, it might be the super moon.

Yeah, look, it's not that the Lakers necessarily have more quote-unquote talent off their bench. Those guys are just performing exceptionally well. And it's just an example of what it could do for a team because their starters statistically have been average. They're barely outscoring opponents, but their bench has been outstanding. They're running with their five-man bench unit led by Lou Williams, Jordan Clarkson, then the front court of rookie Brandon Ingram, Larry Nance, and Tarrick Black. And they're outscoring teams by 29 points per 100 possession. They're just slaying teams, that five-man unit.

So look, that's what it's done for the Lakers. The Lakers, if they didn't have a good bench, if they had a very poor bench, they would not be six and five and in the playoff conversation right now. For them, it has elevated them from a bottom feeder team to a borderline playoff team. For the Rockets and the Thunder,

it can elevate them from a middle of the playoff seating, rankings to close to the top and it hasn't done that so it's it's really i just look at the bench this year is it's just we're seeing it early on the bench can be the differentiator between being average and good or good or great all right lakers are they a flash in the pan or are we going to look up and they have a chance at something like a 35 or 41 season you know i've thought a lot about this chris and in many ways i'm not sure but i just want to say that they're not a flash in the pan and that what we're seeing is for real because the way they're the way they're executing Luke Walton's motion-based system that he's bringing to LA from Golden State it's just

they look so good they I've never I haven't seen the team play this well as a team in years just the way the Kobe Bryant Fergaloile tour has gone I just wonder if these these young players especially Brandon ingram Jordan Clarkson the end of law Russell they get better over the course of the season is they grow within the system. So while right now, sure, it's very, very possible that this is just flashing the pan. They're overachieving. I just think that they are in a perfect system to grow together and as individuals.

And maybe by the end of the year, we're talking about Brandon Ingram. I mean, right now, Ingram has not been great. He's been pretty good defensively and offensively has not been that efficient. But maybe by the end of the year, we're talking about Ingram as a really, a really good rookie, which I think he will be because of his ability just to play different roles. So I just think that they can only get better. And maybe they sneak into the playoffs. And maybe they're a tough out. And I think that's good for the league if they are. How much credit should Luke Walton get?

A lot. You know, it's always hard what we do with coaches, right? Because it was like last year, I think there was at least some sentiment that like, yeah, okay, well, Steve Kerr's out and Luke Walton's on the sideline. He's got this crazy team, and he is certainly on the sidelines for a large portion of this historic season. But there was at least some sentiment that, like, you could have, it's not Luke Walton standing on the sideline. Anybody could stand on that sideline. That team is devastating. And so you never really knew how much credit to give Luke Walton for being a part of that, for anybody for that matter, right? I mean, like, we gave

Elvin Gentry a lot of credit, and then Alvin Gentry went to the Pelicans, and it's like, okay, Alvin Gentry might be really great, but you are at the mercy of roster, let's say. Yet in this particular case, it does feel like Luke Walton is getting a lot of credit, and rightfully so. Yeah, I mean, you just look at what the roster personnel did last year under Byron Scott, and a lot of these players who, you know, entering the draft, he thought they had talent. They did not look like they had talent last year playing next to Kobe, obviously dominating the ball. And the Byron Scott's ancient system, not which didn't emphasize the three-pointer or ball movement for that matter. And now they have Luke Walton, who is playing a modern system.

They are really just zipping the ball around the court. It's just the way they're playing. They've quickly just adapted the system. And in some ways, that's the big surprise to me more than anything else, is that they went from one system drastically different than the one that they're playing. and now, and already a lot of these players are just, you know, they're just embracing it. And that's why I just think at some point over the course of the year, maybe they even take another step forward once these young guys continue to develop. But Luke Walton, I mean, he is, I mean, the job he's done is just incredible so far.

You add in the notes part of your column yesterday, you brought up a bunch of different things that are going on league-wide, one of which was this idea that Willie Colley-Stein could be traded from Sacramento. And I guess your point of view, because we're about to get into that part of the season, where we're now, everybody's about to have played double-digit games or a little more. They're looking at their roster. They've had a little bit of time to evaluate it, and they're deciding where they need to plug holes, and then looking around the league to see what could help them,

and then what they're willing to get rid of. And at least so far, I mean, imagine this, a team with 25 centers on their team, is willing to get rid of one of them. And so, Collie Stein, right? I mean, they get to get drafting centers every, you know what I mean? They even drafted two centers this past year in the first round, no less. So that they were getting, that they're willing to move off of Willie Colley Stein. And you, I think your point of view was that there needs to be patience with him,

that he is a slow developing player and that cutting ties or moving off of Willie Collie Stein, would be unwise. So, all right, first, let me just get your take on the report that at least, you know, that first report that College Stein could get moved. Yeah, so Mark Stein from ESPN reported last week that the Kings are open to trading Willie Colleystein. And look, that's, like you said, Chris, that's not a surprise. They have a ton of centers on their roster.

So you can get it. And Willie Colley Stein has struggled so far. So, you know, you get it, right? you want to maximize his value. If you think that maybe you won't get the best value for him if you wait, maybe you should deal him now. But I don't think that's the best path anyway, just because of how he developed in college.

After his freshman and sophomore seasons, I thought watching him play that this was a guy who had all the athleticism in the world, all the potential in the world to be a great defensive player and to be a great rim runner. But he just didn't have it. He just didn't have good fundamentals. He filed too much. And then his junior year, he came out.

And I thought he was one of the best big man prospects on the draft. And if anything, I thought he was a little bit underrated, looking around people's rankings or across the league. Collie Stein, he is one of the most athletic big men to enter the league in years. His ability just to move laterally. I remember one instance, this is going back to college and the tournament where he just sprang. sprinted across the court with Jerry and Grant. Contested his shot at the final second and Kentucky won. Earlier in that game, he switched on to Jerry and Grant's and came from the free throw line to the three-point line and blocked his shot.

Those were the little moments watching him in college where you say, okay, this guy can be a really high-end defensive player in the NBA. And we've seen flashes of that, the last one in a quarter seasons almost. So they need to give him time. The issue is, is that he's playing on a team where he has said openly that he's had trouble looking over his shoulder, worrying about, worrying about if he's going to get substituted out of the game if he makes a mistake. And look, you can say that that's his fault, that he needs to forget it. He needs to forget that he just needs to play. But every guy is different. And we can't, we can't underestimate how a person's personality will impact.

their success within an environment. So it's very possible that he won't find success in Sacramento. And no matter what they do, he might not find success until he ends up on his second team, assuming the second team is a great situation where he can develop without worrying about getting subbed out of the game. Some guys, they just need the right situation to develop. And if I'm a team that feels like we can take this guy in and give him a steady 15 to 20 minutes per game where he doesn't have to have any concerns or any pressure, then I would be

going for him. And I think the Kings do have that. They are just emphasizing, they are just trying to win with Costa Kufis more so than I think they should be. Cufus is not a guy who long term is going to help you win games. I think he is the guy that should kind of be pushed aside a little bit. And Kali Stein is the person that they should be really just funneling minutes to and just trying to develop him to be the guy that starts next to DeMarcus cousins.

Because look, I have, I've had the perspective for a few years now that they should and eventually will trade DeMarcus cousins. But if they insist on building a team that can win around DeMarcus cousins, they need to develop guys that can become that player. And Collie Stein is one of them. And by just burning them on the bench, you're just not helping yourself doing that. So in many ways, I think they're just, I think they're just shooting themselves. on the foot by by burning and collie sign on the bench instead of just feeding him minutes and

letting him develop and work through his mistakes oh this is good this is really good because a lot of this has to do with whatever your draft evaluation on a guy was right because we're about to plot twist here kevin plot twist okay i'm ready i can't i can't i can't i can't stand him as a player and i would trade him immediately i'm serious is there here here's here's the thing. I don't like guys that cannot pass, dribble, or shoot. And he is deficient in all three of those.

Everybody always talks about his athleticism and his defense and all this other crap. He cannot pass, he cannot dribble, and he cannot shoot. These have always been, at least in my opinion, necessary skills to play basketball

successfully. And so I got no use for him. Honestly, I would get rid of him. I thought that draft pick was stupid, and I'd cut bait. Okay, to be fair, to be fair, you're right that he just struggle on some of those, just basic fundamental categories. However, I think we have to consider, is he the type of guy where, so, okay, for one of the articles I wrote recently, one of the scouts said to me, just because a guy doesn't do something,

doesn't mean that he can't do it. And one of the examples he brought up was Bryce Johnson from North Carolina. he barely shot jump shots at all in college, but then you look at him in workouts and you look at him in the summer league, and he's splashing deep mid-range two-point jumpers. And maybe you think of him as a guy who can eventually extend his range to three-point range.

Now, with Colley Stein, I'm not saying that he'll be a good shooter or a great shooter. But I know Draft Express was at one of his open workouts prior to the draft, and the dude has pretty good mechanics on his jump shot, and he was splashing threes and workouts. And look, I know it's just in an open gym, open workout, no pressure. It's just a perfect environment to look good at something that you might actually not be something good at.

But he looks pretty good. I mean, we can't deny it. It's stunned to be seeing it. And he talked about himself as a guy who he thought he could eventually be someone who does shoot the ball. And I think maybe that's possible. Good form, good touch on his shot. and he just hasn't really gotten the opportunity in the NBA.

And maybe that's the type of attribute that he has that we don't see, but he actually does have locked away. And maybe in a new environment, they would allow him to do that when he's off the ball. Maybe he can spot up and shoot corner threes for you down the line. I don't know, but seeing the video of that workout from DRAx Express, I highly recommend looking it up on YouTube.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe he can shoot jumpers. However, you're right. I don't think he's going to be that good of a passer, and he doesn't do those, and he still doesn't rebound the ball quite well. He has weaknesses. He's never going to be a truly great transcendent player, but maybe he can do a little bit more than he's shown. This is going to be good because, listen, we get to watch it play out, right? And here's the other thing I'll say.

I'll cover Dave Yeager for a long time. If he wants that guy traded, he'll be in their ear every day until he gets traded. Trust me on this. I saw it happen with Quincy Pondexter. I saw it happen with Beno Udre when they made the move for Mario Chalmers. All these things happened in Memphis. I'm telling you, Yeager will be in their ear until that kid gets moved if that's what he wants. If that's what he wants.

Now, if that's, you know what I mean? If he's the reason behind it. And to your point on the whole Costa Cufus thing and everything, it is, you know, and this is the thing that coaches always have to balance. coaches just want, and this is not healthy for long-term success of organization, coaches always want the guy that they think can help them win that night. More so than they're giving a player a lot of rope. The truth is, in order to develop players, sometimes you have to take losses. And most guys are not willing to do that because they know they've only got a couple of years anyway at any of these jobs.

Because the NBA fires coaches after a year or two. You don't get much rope if you're the coach. If you don't get much rope if you're the coach, so these coaches don't give players a lot of rope, right? That's true. Guess who gives players a lot of rope and who we praise for developing guys? Greg Popovich, he has no problems with his security, right? Eric Spolstra in Miami, no issues with his security, right? and you look around the league and there's just so few guys that have such levels of security in their job

that they're willing to go out and develop players because they ain't worried about losing their job. The rest of these guys are all worried about losing their job. So they'd rather play Costa Cufus rather than a second-year guy or they'd rather play just whoever it may be. Any old veteran instead of a young guy. No, you're 100% right, Chris. And that's the underlying factor here is that ultimately, this isn't really in Dave Yeager's control because he's going to play the guys who he thinks are going to help him win the games on that specific night, as you said. And I think that's kind of where I look at ownership.

From a top-down perspective, I just think this team needs to look at itself, look at itself in the mirror and say, we need to focus on development. And right now they haven't necessarily done that. And I don't think that could happen until they trade. to Marcus Cousins and there was a report by from Sean Devaney of sporting news the other day that some general managers general general managers and executives across the league think cousins this is the year cousins will be traded and if if I you know look and I know no Kings fan wants to even think about the possibility of trading the Marcus Cousins but if you were the Kings and you were to get

a high first round draft pick this year another future first round pick two three young players if you just got a King's Ransom, you would look at the King's roster after the trade deadline, and you would think, oh, we have a pretty bright future. We have two lottery picks in a stack draft class. We have all these young players. We can focus on playing time for Colley-Stein, Scalibacy, Papeianus, whoever they get in the trades for cousins. Then they get the two high picks in the lottery. And look, maybe suddenly the future looks bright because they can start to,

focus on just playing all the young kids and just focusing on development. Because look at look at how bright the futures look for team. We talked about the Lakers earlier. The Sixers are one in nine. They're one in nine, but their team has a bright future. We just watch Sarich and Bede, all the young guys on their roster because they're focusing on development.

The Kings right now aren't focusing on development. And I think that's the perspective that needs to change from a top-down perspective. So it has to come from ownership that, yes, we are ready to rebuild as an organization. And I understand that they haven't been so far, but I think there comes a time where they need to realize that. Quick break to get a word from our sponsors. Before we go on, I want to thank today's sponsor, Bose. As the official sound of the NFL, Bose gets players closer to their peak performance. It gets you closer to them.

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Kenny Atkinson, the system he is installed with the Nets, they have just embraced it. all the young players in their roster, their games seem to have been elevated. Sean Kilpatrick's playing very well off the bench. Ronday Hollis, Jefferson is really, really, really having a good solid season so far. Jeremy Lynn hasn't played in every game. He's missed, I think, the last four or five or so. But in the games that he did play early on in the year, he was quite good. Look, I mean, they don't have a lot of talent on their team,

but the system Atkinson has installed has elevated the play. play of those young players in the same way that Luke Walton system did for the Lakers or you look at the Brad Stevens with the Celtics three years ago. They were not a good roster, but they played competitively. I don't know if the Netsville can finish the year close to 500 like they are right now. I don't think they will just because eventually I think that's just the talent runs out. But they are certainly a tougher out than I think anybody could have expected. The other one I wanted to mention is a rookie person. point guard who because he's not on national TV a lot or you know league past fans hardcore NBA

fans might have paid notice or seen him so far but uh generally he's not going to be a guy that gets a lot of print and that's Malcolm Brogden um and I actually watched him the other night in the game and thought he was fantastic and it struck me as one of as I was watching Malcolm Brogna because of course I saw him play a lot at Virginia because he was on that great Virginia team you know it seems like and we've done this over the years in the NBA. Chandler Parsons is a SEC player of the year

and everybody passes on him and he goes in the second round. And Draymond Green is the Big Ten player of the year and everybody passes on him and he goes in the second round. And it just felt like the other night, like at least when I was watching him like, yeah, of course Malcolm Brogden's friggin good.

Like the guy was ACC player in the year. He was ACC defensive player of the year. And like I guess everybody tries to like, you know, pick a party these guys. I know he's 23 years old, but like he's 6'5, and guess what? He was totally awesome in an awesome conference on a team that was not exactly loaded with a bunch of NBA stars. Of course Malcolm Brogden's good. Is it just another one of those long line of examples of the Draymond Greens and the Jay Crowders and the Chandler Parsons is and these guys that were

you know like conference player of the year great players in these conferences and then we get to draft night and it's like you take some you know 18 year old that that average four points and two rebounds in his freshman campaign is a one and done right like it feels like Brogden

might be the next one am I jumping the gun on that I think I don't know if he'll be a dream on Jay Crowder type but I think absolutely he will be on that long list of players who just drop for whatever reason and I think I think the reasons some teams or scouts had or understandable. Like you said, he's 23.

You look at him and maybe you wonder if he's a jack of all trades. Did he max out his game? Was he only, was he? I think sometimes when scouting players, Brogden, you wonder if in the NBA, would he be a guy who's above average at everything? Or will he have some categories where he is great? And I think so far we're seeing the categories in which he's great.

He's excellent in the pick and roll. He knows how to navigate screens. he's an unbelievable passer, just great vision, great accuracy. There were concerns about his jump shot translating. I don't know what his percentages are so far. I don't think they're that great. But the thing is, is there having him run, pick and roll, and that's what he's best at. And he is just a rock solid defender.

He knows how to defend. He can switch screens. He's a tough defender. Yeah, he had so much of what you love to have. and high-end role players on your roster. And teams, I think, did focus a little bit too much on some of those negatives, including his athleticism and his age.

But the guy just does so many things well on the court and already with the Milwaukee Bucks, give them credit. They've put him in a situation to succeed early on this season. We have talked earlier. The other thing I wanted to touch on is we talked earlier about Westbrook and Hardin, and even Anthony Davis, for that matter,

They're having these video game statistical seasons, yet we have not talked about the leading scorer in the NBA. You know, we're now double-digit games into the season. And what is going on with DeRosen? 34 points a game? I mean, like, I know all these other guys are getting these crazy accolades and everybody's talking about, wow, look at the crazy seasons. It feels like everybody's talking about the crazy season that Westbrook and Harden,

and maybe even Anthony Davis are having. not as many talking about the fact that DeMarreauze is averaging 34 points a game how is this happening so watching de rosen in past years I used to say to myself man this dude could be

like the best player in the league if he could if he could just shoot threes and he still doesn't shoot threes but so far he has been the best player in the NBA statistically at least I mean 34 points per game and he's been super efficient is just outrageous

really I just think he's doing everything that he's done well in the past and he's just doing it better. I really think it's as simple as that. Never mind the fact that he's just red-hot right now. Maybe he'll experience some regression at some point during the season, but at the same time, you can't rule him out having a career year. The dude is just slaying it right now from all levels of the floor besides three-point range. It's kind of watching like a player from the 90s or early. 2000s where the three-pointer isn't a part of their game. I still watch him play and I still wonder what he could be with a three-pointer.

But what we're seeing right now is really, really special. And it's been tremendous for the Raptors because they're one of those teams where, you know, referring to what we said before, they're getting solid play from their reserves. That's what's really enabling them to have one of the better teams in the league, in addition to DeRosen, obviously just leading the way. All right, so he's averaging 34 a game, and we've got a lot of season left, right? If I gave you over under 28 on DeRosen, he ends the season averaging blank points per game, over under 28. I'd say the over, Chris.

I think just how much they're using him. And it's not like he didn't average 24, 25, 24. I think last year, sure, I think the way they're utilizing him and leaning on him is the guy in their roster. I think he could sustain over 28. All right. So there was the individual stat that stands out a lot. I want to say the team stat in terms of offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency and how teams are succeeding so far, the team stat that stands out so far, to me at least.

So DeRosen leading the league in scoring obviously stands out, especially with all the talk of Westbrook and Harden. team-wise, I talked earlier about how the only team that's in the top five in both offense and defense efficiency-wise is the clippers. When you look at the offensive efficiency numbers, number five in the league is the clippers, right? No surprise. Number four, Toronto. Most people thought their top two, three seed in the east, right? Number three, Cleveland. Okay, they were just in the finals last year.

They got LeBron-Kiree in love. No surprise. number one is Golden State, not shocking to anyone, the number two team in the league in offensive efficiency is Tom Tibado's Minnesota Timberwolves. What is going on? It's Andrew Wiggins, man. He's a superstar awesome.

It's Wiggins. Towns has his partner in crime now. Wiggins has been just absolutely unbelievable. I think that's really the key right there. Towns has his partner in crime. Wiggins, who knows if he'll sustain this. I don't know.

I think he's averaging 26 right now and he's doing it like a 50, 54% three point percentage. He's been unbelievable, Chris. Unbelievable. He looks he's living, he's looking like the guy that everybody hyped up prior to the draft.

That's the best thing we can say about him. How much do you think Tom Tibido hates being number two in offense and 24th in defense. Like he hates it. He hates this so much. This is his nightmare. He's second in the league in offense and 24th in defense.

These are things I would have never in my life ever suspected possible, even through 10 games. I'm a little surprised that they haven't been better defensively. I mean, offensively, they've been ridiculous. But I think maybe before the season, I think in our prediction podcast, I mentioned how I think they'll be a playoff team. And one of my reasons why was because I thought they would be better defensively into Tibido. But that hasn't been the case, like you said.

Maybe at some point they do really kind of take a step up on that and the floor, though. And then maybe, who knows, they become one of the top 15 or so teams in the league. They will be. They will take an uptink in defense. There's no way around it. There's just no way. It's impossible. There's no way Tom Tibido, who like the last several years he's coached, whether it was

in Boston or Chicago. The guy has had, and again, they're probably not going to be top five. They might not even be top ten. But they'll be middle of the pack. 24th is an anomaly so far. They're not going to be that bad defensively. I don't think.

So I have an interesting Timberwolf's stat for you right here. I was just clicking through the offensive, the advanced stats rankings. In the first half this season, they have the best offensive rating in basketball. but in the second half of games, they are the fourth worst. So they are dominating in the first half of games offensively, and they are struggling in the second half with a 94 offensive rating and second half of games so far.

So it's really been a tail of two halves for them so far, and they've just been struggling defensively throughout, though. All right, let's come up with some ridiculous reasons as to why that would be so. Do we have any idea? I think, you know what I think? At least, and again, again, No, I don't want to say it because it might immediately there'll be somebody that will do the statistical analysis and prove it wrong. But I always feel like I'm watching them that it's a little too much Levine.

You know what I mean? And especially when they get down, they've struggled at the end of game. They had a hell of a time at the end of games last year. And they don't, I would say at least part of it. And so here, this is one that people can't just go look up. They still don't have their pecking order figured out. At all, right? When they get in these games and you're talking about something's close, five minutes left to go. All right, who is getting the ball on a regular basis? The good teams know what their go-to deal is.

And I still think they're searching. They will inevitably figure it out as time goes on, but there's still a team that searches for it. And so that would be at least part of why the offensive rating would be down as compared to the first half. Because in the first half, you're just playing, right? But in the second half, it feels like they're a, they don't really know what they're doing or what they're going to. Is it towns? Who's the guy? And maybe it'll emerge that Wiggins is just going to be the guy. But Wiggins has always seemed a little more passive to me.

And Levine has seemed more like the give me the damn ball guy. And that probably doesn't help them the most. It's got to be Wiggins and towns. Yeah. I think you can be on to something there, Chris. I think in some ways maybe just those guys. aren't there yet. It could be as simple as that where Wiggins-Levin Towns, really they're big three young players,

just not the level yet where they need to be to be a go-to option when defense really ramps up towards the end of games. Because I know Towns, Towns as much as, I mean, he's unbelievable, unbelievable young player. He hasn't even been quite where he can be so far this year. He's had a couple down games so far. I don't want to not Carl Anthony Towns he's he's a stud but in the second half of games I think I think at some point maybe he'll he'll pick up his play and maybe he'll be that go-to option

at the end of games and oh if today's his birthday for the record he turned 21 today happy birthday so maybe today he turns the page I mean he becomes their go-to option down the stretch as soon as he drink some alcohol for the first time in his life he's going to turn it this Superman after he drinks his first beer tonight, right? I think that's probably the case.

What are you writing about this week? Do you know yet? So this week, we're going to have a little thing on Wiggins, who we were talking about, and his improvements as a jump shooter. And then we're going to kind of juxtapose that against Justice Winslow, who hasn't quite made the improvements that he needs to make to become a great player in the NBA. And I think those two guys serve as good examples of what can happen when a jump. jump shot is enhanced exiting college and coming into the NBA. Well, I will certainly keep a look out for it on the ringer.com.

Kevin, you're the man. Thanks, buddy. Thank you for having me, Chris. You're the man, too. Thanks for listening to another edition of the NBA show.