The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 44: Clippers-Grizz, Klay Thompson Trades, and Phil Jackson's LeBron Comment With Sam Amick

Episode Date: November 17, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Vernon is joined by USA Today's Sam Amick to discuss Marc Gasol's Conor McGregor dance (6:00), the Clippers' "strength in numbers" model (12:00), Klay Thompson's numbers returning to normal (16:00), the D.C. catastrophe (20:00), the impact of a Boogie trade on Kings fans (28:00), and Phil Jackson's "posse" comment (37:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to another edition of the NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me today is Sam Amick, the outstanding columnist from USA Today. You can also listen to his NBA podcast, NBA A to Z. What's up, Sam? Mr. Vernon, long time no talk. How are you, my friend? Everything's great.

I wanted so badly to be able to start this podcast with a very important question. What is wrong with the clipper, Sam? Absolutely nothing. They just ran into the gris. I mean, the gris were doing their thing. Let me throw it back your way. What in the world is going on with the gris in their three-point shooting? My goodness.

This is David Fisdale. That was something else. David Fisdale has decided that the grizzies are going to play a totally different way. And I don't think you're necessarily expecting Mike Conley to knock down seven-threes on a regular. But he told Markis all going into the season that he wanted him to do. average taking four attempts a game. And then there it was. And he's hit two with the game on the line.

With the game on the line. And last night they run a play for a mark. It's all just quite bizarre. As someone who covered that team who has covered the team for a long time, the fact that they run play. They have had two game winning situations, one in overtime, and then last night against the Clippers, where they have run, the play is a Mark Gassau three. and then him just stonting on everybody in the crowd and doing the Connor McGregor rock. Everything about last night was, you know me, total euphoria.

It was fantastic. It was giving white guys a bad name, though. That was a pretty awful fan. What? But he gave it a show. He tried. He tried. You didn't like his Connor McGregor.

No, I did love it. I mean, I loved that Mark embraces, you know, kind of the goofiness. But, you know, his arms are a little bit longer than you. Connor McGregors, I don't know if that reach would actually help him in the ring, but it was fun to watch. I mean, I just cheated, as you mentioned, the three-point shooting. And my God, man, I knew Mark didn't shoot any, but, you know, you're literally talking about a guy who's never averaged more than 0.2 per game.

He just never took him at all. I think he took three. I think he took three last season, Markisole. Yeah, I'm going to cheat and look at the totals. But, I mean, yeah, he's averaging four. you know, he's sitting there at 20 points and, you know, six boards. I like what they're doing. I know they dropped a few games that they wish they didn't drop.

But I got a decent sense of Fisdale when I ran into those guys in Minnesota during the preseason. So they had an exhibition game against the T-Wolves. And I had never met Fisdell at all. Didn't mean him in Miami. I knew he had a very good reputation. Enjoyed talking to him. And one of the things that struck me, that we talked about was just like, man, it's got to be hard to come into that kind of an environment

where there's so much history and so much of a foundation already, but you're obviously paid a lot of money to come in and put your stamp on it. And whether it's Mark shooting threes, whether it's his, I think, bold decision to have Mark be the only leader, the only captain, rather, on the team, which he was putting a challenge to Mark and his leadership. He's done some stuff that I think in the end is going to pay off. and then he wants Mike Connolly, as you know, to be pretty hyper-focused on becoming an All-Star and just taking his game to the next level. So they got some great pieces to get Chandler Parsons back.

I know he's been quiet so far, but that was a huge win for them. Well, for anybody that stayed up late to watch that game, it turned out, like it was classic Grizzlies Clippers. People throwing each other to the ground, like big shot after big shot. I mean, it's a great rivalry. They've had all these playoff wars. And so for anybody that did stay up late, it paid off big time watching the Grizzlies Clippers. There were other big games that were going on last night. Let me ask you about your takeaway.

The one that led into that last night was the Warriors and the Raptors on Drake Knight, no less. Which, by the way, how many people do you think Googled to try to get that Doris Burke's shirt that he was wearing? That was great. Well, I haven't done it yet, but I'm going to beat one of them. I thought that was fantastic. Yeah, they don't have, they're not available. Somebody, somebody's going to be like knocking those off on one of those like cartels or whatever they call them. You know, like we're, you know, I promise those will be all over eBay today.

You know, some ingenious entrepreneurs out there that are just going to copy that shirt and make Doris Burke shirts, probably big sellers. Anyway, what did you take away from outside of Drake's great Doris Burke shirt? would you take away from watching the Warriors play against the Raptors last night? I mean, good win for them for Golden State. Mostly more of the same, though. Phenomenal, historic level offense and then mediocre defense. I don't know. One of two things obviously is going to happen.

They're either going to improve defensively or they're not. And if they're not, it's just it's tough to not feel like this is the kind of weakness that's going to come back to bite of at some point. because we saw in the playoffs, I mean, not to sound like Charles Barkley, because, you know, he trolls on the Warriors so hard so often, but, you know, the shooting style, you know, it does only take you so far. And defense has been part of what they've been in the last couple of years, fourth in defensive rating last season, number one, the year before.

So this is new for them. They're used to locking teams up. And as great as the offense has been, it's just a hair above. what they did for 82 games last season. So to me, it's a really interesting landscape for them because I'm certainly not playing Monday morning quarterback, and it would be stupid, I think, to question any decision to go after a guy like Kevin Durant.

But, you know, for one, I think people kind of undervalue the fact that that was a long-term play as well. Kevin's 27. He's a former MVP. But in the short term, they've got stuff to figure out. I think they dropped last night from 14th in the league and defensive rating down to 22nd. You know, and we're still early, so stuff changes quickly. But they're giving up a ton of points, but, man, I mean, they can fill it up on the other end.

You know, they saw, you know, the stars are clicking when it comes to Steph Curry, Durant, Clay Thompson, Draymond Green. Those guys, by and large, seem to have gotten to a point where they're comfortable finding their own games within that context. And that wasn't the case in the first couple games. I mean, on the other side, the Raptors are playing good ball, and DeMars been ridiculous. But good game, fun game, but Golden State's still trying to get it right. Maybe Harrison Barnes is better than we gave him credit for, just given what he's doing in Dallas now, right? Like, I mean, he was always kind of the other guy and just a role guy for the Warriors.

But in retrospect, I mean, I know they lost Bogot, they lost DeZili, they lost Barbosa. I mean, they're a different team besides just adding the one big piece. but also just part of that starting lineup was Harrison Barnes, and he's been showing out for Dallas so far. He has. I think you can kind of independently compliment Harrison for his improvement in Dallas's year and taking advantage of that opportunity,

while also, you know, as far as where I'd fall in that other argument, I would say, I mean, there's just no metric, I don't think, where the Warriors didn't get better with the ran on both ends. I mean, he's really their best rim protector right now, which is the problem. So I think it's more about the Bogot factor and the depth because it's funny, you know, Clippers dropped that game to Memphis last night,

but their formula so far has had shades of the Warriors, where they've been like the strength and numbers thing that the Warriors seem to pat in the last couple of years, the Clippers have that this year with Mo Spades, former Warriors, Big Man, and, you know, Raymond Felton and Brandon Bass and Austin Rivers-Termal Crawford, that whole second unit. So with the Warriors, they just don't have that death. And the Harrison thing, the problem with him in Golden State, there's not that many players in the league, especially young players,

who are trying to find their own way, who can maximize the few opportunities that he got in that context last season, especially in the playoff. Early in his career, he was known as playoff Barnes because he had some big moment. But these last couple of years, it's just one of those things where if you don't get that shot, but every five or six times down the floor and you're not knocking it down. Then all of a sudden, people are looking at you sideways. I think Harrison was in a tough spot.

I mean, he's obviously better than what he was able to be with the Warriors, but I think Kevin's got it all over him. Yeah, the crazy thing is about the Clippers. Going into last night, I believe Blake Griffin was the only guy on their team that was averaging over 30 minutes a game. Now, in part, that's because they've been beaten the hell out of people. But still, to your point about using the debt, when you only have one guy that, I mean, that was like some Spurs stuff looking at their stats that they only had.

And I think his number was 32. I think Blake was playing 32 minutes a game. And everybody else was under 30 minutes a game, which I thought was incredible. Yeah. I mean, that narrative has changed so quickly in the league. And so the one that seemed like it was set in stone these last couple of years was that Doc Rivers was a terrible GM. Right. And then all of a sudden, he makes some good moves.

and that depth is there. So they also, their whole situation I find really interesting, because if you want to look at it from the standpoint of contracts where you got Chris Paul and Blake Griffin, they have the ability to be free agents this coming summer. J.J. Reddick is unrestricted. You have the clock ticking on that front. You've got the backstory with Blake,

who has been a star in this league for a while. But last year, I think he's chewing on a pretty serious piece of humble pie, because he gets in that fight with the assistant equipment manager, and they win a ton of games without him, where for a long stretch, like six or eight weeks, if you're Blake Griffin sitting at your house, kind of trying to process all this stuff, you realize that, yes, I'm a great player,

but they don't have to have me. So, you know, I think he's been better defensively this year, and he's been preaching defense, and they've got the best defensive unit in the league. So they have a lot of motivation and incentive right now that I think makes them dangerous, but again Memphis comes in gets that win gets above 500 and we'll see if they get on their way let me get back to the warrior stuff because you recently wrote an article interesting column about

clay Thompson and it was that the talent value and pride of clay Thompson is something that the warriors really needed to protect all three of those things his talent his value and his pride he is the guy that has had to take you know take on a different role per se or has at least not not slid into the role with tremendous success just yet what do you make of the situation there do you think that we could that we're going to look up we already started with the trade rumors which most everybody shot down but is it possible that we are going to look up and we've got another hardened situation on our hands right where Clay Thompson's going to look up and be like yo, I could be the man somewhere else.

Right. Right. Once upon a time we had this exact thing happen with Durant, Westbrook, and Hardin, and you know Hardin felt that way, and rightfully so. Do you think there's any chance that that happens and just explain your philosophy on how the warrior should be handling this with Clay? Yeah, it's funny, even though I wrote that column the other day, honestly, Chris, I hadn't thought about it from the Hardin perspective with Durant's arrival. interesting way to look at it. And I think the parallel is fair. I don't think it's going to happen

for a couple of reasons. For one, as we now know, James and the way he's wired in his personality, was the kind of guy that I think the second he started getting a taste of some of the spotlight, he started wondering why he couldn't get more of it. And that's not even to say that I'm not even putting a negative on that. The guys have got a right to want to shine. as much as possible. But I remember during the OKC days the Hardin the Thunder came through Sacramento and I

caught him at a shoot-around. And I had just done this interview with Gilbert Aranus where he came out of hiding at that time to talk about everything from the gun situation in Washington. And in this long interview with Gilbert Aranis, he said that he thought James Hardin was arguably the most

valuable player on the Thunder. And I told James that he had already seen the interview and his eyes lit up. And that was the day that I was like, oh man, this guy, he knows how good he is, and I'm not sure he's going to be happy being a six-man and being in anybody's shadow. Clay's different. With the Warriors, they had to decide whether or not to extend him a couple years ago. And, you know, they obviously made that choice, and this was after they had trade talks with

Minnesota about Kevin Love, where at that time Clay had to decide, am I the kind of guy that wants to go alone, go to Minnesota, be the franchise centerpiece, or stay with Steph Curry. he made it clear at that point. I like winning games. I like having fun. I'm smart enough to know when a good thing is good and not to question it. All that being said, I think they've got to, like I wrote, they've got to watch. There's a threshold here, I think, where at some point he is human at some point, maybe he does decide that it doesn't work for him.

I don't think that time is anytime soon. But there's a reason that, you know, this formula might not work. You have four stars. We're used to seeing three stars. This is four stars trying to fit into the same box. And for the Warriors, the good news is that recently he has figured it out. His first four games were disastrous. Miss 25 of his first 28-3s looked like he was completely out of sorts.

He's been much better. Since then, his numbers have jumped. He was shooting around 45% from three-point range, which is pretty much what he does. So they've worked that out, and then, you know, and he's been good on D. But it's something to watch. if only because when the February trade deadline comes up and teams are just trying to figure out how can I get my hands on a top-tier player when a team like the Warriors has a hole defensively like they do that the natural thing is just to think could we give up one of our guys

to fill that hole I you know they don't they don't sound like they're in that place right now but you never know what could happen it's interesting you say that because the the Oklahoma City Thunder they ran into it twice with their third guy They went through it with Hardin, who was wired to be the man. And they also just went through it again with Reggie Jackson, right, who was not necessarily comfortable just being the third wheel. But it sounds to me like just from your interactions with Clay, you think maybe he's wired a little more like because it takes a special guy like a Bosch or a love. You know, those guys were 25 point per game scores putting up crazy stats. Bosch obviously won more in Toronto than Love One in Minnesota, but it sounds to me like you think Clay's wired maybe a little more like those guys in terms of not necessarily becoming.

I think we know that there was probably a little resent out of Hardin. There was certainly resent out of Reggie Jackson. There's no way around that. But maybe that that's not, maybe that's not necessarily how Thompson's wired. If we're just talking about, forget what the Warriors would do with him just on his end and his. goals and whether he thinks he should be the man on a team. You don't think necessarily so? No, I agree. I don't. I mean, he said definitively, I don't care about being the man. But again, I just think there's a limit. There's a limit to that for a couple of reasons.

You know, we all get older. We all change the way we look at the world. And he's not a kid anymore. He's 26 years old. And some of the stuff I alluded to in the column is worth remembering. So for one, he's already shown a few signs that, yes, I'm fine being in the shadows for the most part, but I don't want to be in the closet. You know what I mean? He had a situation with – he's got a shoe deal with the Chinese company called ANTA. And I kind of threw this at the end of the story, admittedly. But during the summer, there was a lot of rumblings about the fact that he didn't like his shoe deal very much because I think it's about $2 million a year. it's just pennies on the dollar compared to what some of these stars get with bigger companies,

with Nike and Adidas and Under Armour. And when he signed that deal, he had not been an All-Star yet. It was a good contract at that time. And then my understanding is their company's stock has risen since he's signed on board. And there's just a little bit from his standpoint of him feeling like, you guys are raking in the profits, and I'm sitting here with this deal that doesn't really reflect who I am in the league. That type of a thing to me kind of is a signal.

that, you know, he just wants to be respected. And I think the Warriors are aware of this, and I think they know they've got to be careful. If teams call, not if, when teams call, asking if they get Clay, they can't sit on the phone for 20 minutes exploring every Clay Thompson option just because they feel like that's due diligence, because if that gets back to him, then you might offend him at some point, and then maybe this dynamic changes.

But to your point about who he is and who he kind of might remind us of, The name that he has dropped for literally years is Mano Genoblee. When you ask him about wanting to stay with the warriors, he will bring up Manu and the idea that Manu sacrificed a ton to win with the Spurs. That's the kind of model that he has in his mind, even though he's obviously not coming off the bench. So they're extremely lucky to have a guy who's not only as good as he is, but is wired that way. And maybe it never changes. But, again, they just got to monitor it, I think.

A couple other things from last night that I want to mention. I think people were probably surprised if they didn't flip it on league pass, which I'd imagine many did not. Just to see come across the bottom line, especially in the first half when it was like 40 to 19 or whatever, the Sixers without MBEed last night just smashing Washington. This has been a catastrophe for the beginning of the Scott Brooks era in Washington. What do you make of what has happened? I think even if people didn't think they were going to be that good, you know, a Midland team, a 500 team. They got this back court of Walden Beal.

But this thing has been, I mean, this has been, like I said, a catastrophe to start, and then they got their ass kicked by the Sixers last night. It's unreal, man. It's really, it's unreal. And it's one of those things where because you just gave a new coach big money, it's kind of where everybody looks left and looks right probably in that locker room and just, you know, like where do we take this? I mean, you've got to figure it out internally.

There's not going to be a firing, and trades are not easy to come by. And they got all their money locked up. Between John, Bradley Beal, Cortad, Jan Maheemi, there's no cap room to be excited about on the horizon. This is the team that they constructed and that they built and that they wanted to get into the playoffs with. And you do wonder, and this, again, kind of like the clay thing, is probably down the road in just a monitoring situation. But with John Wall, you're talking about a guy who is, you know, a top player in the league and still putting up big-time individual numbers. I looked at it last night.

I think he's 22 points, 10 assists, almost five boards, and it's just not paying off. He, you know, he's doing his part. He's still on that minutes restriction. It sounded like he – I read his quotes from last night. It sounded like he's getting frustrated by that. He only played seven minutes in the first half from having surgery in the offseason on both knees. So it's ugly, and especially from, in terms of optics and PR, they were pretty fired up to bring Scotty in there. And then it was never fair to Scotty for anybody to think he was going to bring Kevin Durant with him.

But obviously, that didn't happen. And so if you're just a casual wizard fan, you're probably thinking right away like, oh, I thought this guy was bringing Durant. Well, that, you know, that sucks. And then now you're sitting there at 2 and 8 or whatever they are. It's a mess. I just, I don't know how they fix it. they're going to have to just get better internally. I saw, you know, Gortat talks about the second unit,

and I don't have those numbers in front of me, but, you know, obviously the starters are the only ones making any impact. So not a pre-suit way. I'll say this. I'll listen. The Gortat quotes about how we have the worst bench in the league, that's a bullshit thing to do, man. It really is.

Because you've got to walk back in that locker room. You've got to be around those guys. And, I mean, you know what I mean? like, that's just so not the way to handle it if you're a veteran on that team saying that kind of thing because that can just destroy a team seriously. A guy saying that because, you know, these guys look around like, he's talking about us. He's talking about us sucking, you know what mean? And like, unless you really like the guy, you know, somebody intensely likable that's viewed as a real leader of the team might can get away with that, might. But generally,

nobody can get away with saying other guys on his team, especially like that's just playing the blame game. Like, hey, our starters are good, but our second unit sucks. Like, what do you think the rest of those guys are thinking in that locker? And they're like, screw you, man. Right. No, I mean, and that's the last thing they need right now is just to kill the spirit, whatever spirit they have going at the moment

and any kind of inclusive nature and just a way to do it together again. I mean, he jumped on Twitter and tried to walk it back and apologized for his frustration. but between that and let's not forget that in the offseason one of the weirder stories was John Wall and Bradley Beal admitting to the world that they don't like each other very much. I mean, I'm always huge on, if you ask me to give you a short list of important factors in the NBA, I just, I think still, even with all the analytics and as smart as these

executives are, I think a lot of times still it's overlooked too often, just the chemistry question and the way guys feel about each other and whether or not they want to go dive on the floor for one another. And Memphis has done a great job in recent years of having a really good vibe on that front. And to your point, whether it's Gortod and what he had to say or the backcourt dynamic with these guys or, and I don't have a good feel for this, but Scott in OKC did a great job of getting his guys to really be engaged and connected with him. Durant swore by him, you know, swore by him. And that is going to take some time in Washington. So I have to assume that he doesn't have that kind of a

connection yet. So you just kind of wonder again where it's going to come from. All right. Another thing that happened last night was a massive performance again by the Hawks. They ended up only, if you look at the box score, they ended up only winning by seven. But in the second quarter, they laid the wood to the bucks. I mean, now it scored them 31 to 9 in that quarter. There are times so far this season where the Hawks have looked devastatingly good. How much Hawks stock are you buying through 10 games? Or 11 games, rather.

I mean, I like him. You know, we know that with Booneholtzer, that is defensive fabric, and that's showing through. And I like, and this is a nuanced factor so far, but his ability

when Dwight Howard decided to sign there, and I heard Dwight telling stories about conversations he had had, with Coach Bud in years past and how he felt like he was a nice man who was very good at what he did. And he got mutual respect even when they weren't on the same team. And then Dwight wants to come his way. And then so far convincing Dwight to try to do what he does and not try to be a superstar.

And now, as we stand, to be part of a team that's got the second best defense so far and is really getting it done on that end. I mean, they've got a really good group. And it's kind of a little bit like the Raptors situation where you do still feel like it's the Cavs and everybody else in the East. So, you know, I don't know where that ceiling is for them, but they're playing a good ball. And the formula is sustainable.

This is not something where a team gets on a run and is even, I mean, we joked earlier about the Grizzlies and their threes. I need to see that a little more consistently for longer before I believe it. But with the Hawks, you can defend like this every night out. and, you know, they're getting enough on the other end to get it done. All right, well, how about, you know, because obviously in this day and age of social media, see people jump in the gun. What about just you, Sam?

Do you rather have Dwight Howard or Al Horford? Man, that's a good question. I mean, Al, I think, I mean, Al's a better player at this point in his career. But the key with Dwight, and I've covered Dwight as intensely probably as any national guy the last couple of years as far as just kind of doing. bigger stories with him and getting a sense of him. The biggest thing is just, I honestly was reaching the point where I didn't know if anybody could convince him to stay in a lane

because in Houston he still had it in his mind that he and James Hardin were one in one A, which was not the case. He needed to play a role. He needed to listen to Darrell Morey when he told them that, that coming off picking rolls was where he was most effective instead of throwing it down into the block. And so it seemed like he had a lot of wax in his ears the last couple of years didn't want to hear from anybody.

And if Coach Bud is getting through to him, then fit. We talked about chemistry earlier. I think at this point it's the question of, you know, in a vacuum, who would I rather have? I'd rather have Horford. But it's tough to argue with nine and two. And, you know, Dwight's had big nights and he's had quiet nights. I mean, even that game, I didn't even see why didn't he play last night against the buck? I don't know.

Do we know? Yeah, he didn't play out this night. But, I mean, the answer to your question is Horford, but I like what Dwight's doing so far in Atlanta. Yep. You know, you covered for many, many years, you covered that Sacramento team. And they are a team that their name has already come up a little bit. Their name has already come up a little bit because, I guess, Cawley Stein, maybe they would move him, everybody for the last X amount of years.

has brought up DeMarcus cousins as a guy that could move. They got beat by the Spurs last night. But anyway, I just want your overarching thoughts on, because you know that organization better than anyone I know. Do you think, what do you make of the rumors that Collie Stein could be on the trade block sooner than later? Do you think that when people bring up DeMarcus cousins' trades, do you roll your eyes or do you think, you know, maybe one day that could happen? No, I think the Cousins thing could be real.

I was there last night, kind of in a casual capacity. I was working, but it was kind of focusing on other stuff. But, you know, it's kind of like the Hawks game, you mentioned. It wasn't close, even though the score was close. They got smoked by the Spurs. The fans could have left early in the third quarter. They knew what was happening. And the bottom line of all this stuff is that Vivek Rondaevae, their owner,

It's just a question of, is he going to give the green light at some point to trade cousins? Now, I sat down with Vivek in the preseason, did a long interview on a bunch of different fronts, and he swears that he's not as involved as everybody says he is. And I even, it's weird, Chris, like at one point in the interview, and this didn't really make it, to be honest with you, in the interview, but I even said to him, like, Vivek, you know, you are the majority owner, or the managing partner. You don't need to pretend that you're not having an opinion here because he's so worried about the perception that he does everything that he try to pretend he doesn't do anything.

And that's just not the case. And he's been in love with cousins since he bought the team a few years ago. And you got GM, Vladia Divots. They brought in Ken Cattinella, respected guy who was in the league office and then went to Pistons is kind of a cap guy. It's fantastic when it comes to work in the phones. And it starts and ends with cousins because the question. question is, are you going to trade the big guy and really rebuild again, or are you going to try to get pieces around on the dangerous part with things like Collie Stein? I mean, like

Omer Caspby is another name who's come up. And that, it's fine. I get it because Dave Yeager's not a big fan, clearly. They gave him, I think, two years, like six million a year, something like that. But Collie Stein, you trade him. Like, good God, man, another draft pick, another draft pick that failed. You know, this team has not drafted a guy who's made a serious impact in years other than cousins. He's kind of the only one. You got Collie Stein out there.

Ben McLemore should have been part of their core. And I understand that they want to make some moves happen. But, I mean, their fans are so tired of seeing, you know, draft night, we're taking this guy, we're taking that guy, and then next thing, you know, that guy's becoming part of a trade down the line. I don't know what direction they're going to go. Would there be a revolt fan-wise if they moved off of cousins? How beloved is he?

I think it's split. I'm guessing, but I think it's pretty split. A lot of folks, you see a little bit of where they've only got so much to root for. So last night, I actually saw an old college buddy of mine at the game, and it's kind of fun. I didn't even know he had a child, right? So I meet his three-year-old boy, and I was like, hey, bud, I looked down, he's got a jersey on, and I turn him around and said, who are you wearing? I was like, oh, I should have known better cousins. Of course you're wearing cousins.

You have to wear cousins. So that's kind of like that's it. That's what they have to sink their teeth into. You have that contingent that just enjoys seeing the guy play the game. And embraces what has become kind of a persona, boogie, a little bit anti-establishment. Like, you know, I can just be the way I am and I don't need to conform for anybody. And that resonates in a lot of circles. You got the other side that is more than fine seeing him leave town.

where they get tired. Like I even had, and obviously because I'm still based here, I'm in a suburb south of Sacramento. You know, I had a neighbor recently who just in passing was decided to tell me how DeMarcus's body language just offends him, and that he hates watching him. He looks at a great player. I said, man, I watch him play, and it's just offensive.

He's pissed about everything. Nothing's ever his fault. You see the way it affects his teammates. So I think it's split. I don't think it would be a revolt. I mean, as always, it would be what did they get for? And the tricky part is if you, and at this point, we're just talking speculation as opposed to real trade talks. But around the league, two of the teams that I hear most consistently that maybe you could have a trade partner with are the regional rivals.

It's the Warriors and the Lakers because they'd have a lot to offer and you could maybe find a win-win deal there. But if you're Vladay, it's like, my God, man, like I want to ship this guy to Philly. I want to ship him to the other side of the country. I don't want to be watching him win a championship with the Warriors or, you know, light and staple center up right down the road in L.A. So, again, I don't know what direction they're going to go, but they're going to have to chew on all that stuff. You're talking about the Warriors? What do they have to give up?

They don't have draft, but you talk about giving up a big toll? You're talking about giving up Clay or something? Yeah, that's the big one. That's the big one that if Bob Myers is listening, he's going to text me and tell me to shut up. Like, that's the Warriors' GM. But, like, yeah, that's the big one where you have, you have, like, so the root of the Boston rumor, not to digress, but like Brian Scalabrini obviously circulated it. It came from some other guy who wrote it.

But Boston, like, if you're Boston, if you're another team that wants a top-tier guy, like teams are going to try to poach somebody from the Warriors all the way up until the deadline because the premise is, again, you got an embarrassment of riches on the wings and maybe a of skill sets that you can only score so many points. As great as they are, their offense, again, is right where it was last season. They got Kevin Durant, a former MVP in their offense. Spectacular, though it may be, is not any better. So the premise there is that they take a bold move and they go ahead and say,

let's give up one of our wings. And that I think, Clay, you know, speculation-wise is the guy that people are on the league would wonder about. So, yeah, like the Kings blew it on Clay when he came out in the draft. They could have drafted him. Some guys in their front office liked them, and they passed, and that was the same draft where unbelievable as it is. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that was the Jimmer draft,

and they also passed on Kauai Leonard, which is crazy. But, yeah, I mean, that would be kind of an all-star for an all-star type thing with the Warriors. Did – all right, so if I told you – if, like, we just – if we fared – Fast forward in time, and there is a – if Boogie Cousins wears a different jersey this season, that would not be totally shocking to you. Not totally shocking, but I'll call it unlikely right now. I mean, last night I did poke around a little bit, and one important factor and the thing that I was told was that DeMarcus's camp, which is a very powerful camp,

Dan Fagan, his agent, and longtime power broker in the NBA, and really his style is always pretty aggressive when he wants his guys to get into a new situation. What I'm hearing right now is that they're not pushing. They're not saying get them out. The one thing that nationally people don't, there maybe don't understand or hear that often, is that as miserable as it has been in Sacramento since DeMarcus has been there, he has a real genuine affection for the area. He likes being there.

He's not one of these guys who says, I can get more marketing deals in a big city or anything like that. I think, honestly, he enjoys being off the grid a little bit because he can be himself. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes on with him that goes unreported because the interest is not there nationally and because the media contingent is just not as big as it might be in other parts of the country. So that's the other funny part is I know it's easy to say, oh, there's no way he would ever resign there, and so they better trade him. I think there's part, you know, the Kings have part of their mindset that is that really the case.

But they got to make a decision because that arena, they got a new arena, fantastic. It's really exciting for the town and the city. But we are 11 games in and already, like last night, you've got reporters walking around joking sarcastically that, well, at least the arena's nice. You know, I mean, that shelf life of that buzz is only going to last so long. All right, Sam, we'll get right back to it. First, I want to tell you about our sponsors today. Sling TV. It's officially basketball season, so it's time to ask yourself the crucial question.

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Do you think, and obviously you wrote about it, so you don't think necessarily that it was overblown. And when you're talking about one of the great coaches in NBA history offending the greatest point, player that we have in the NBA right now, it's certainly going to be a big story. But just your take on the whole Phil Jackson posse controversy? So, I mean, here's where I stand, and obviously I wrote it, but context to me is really, really important. And I've got a ton of respect for Phil. I've enjoyed him over the years.

I think he's always been a socially conscious guy, been an intelligent guy, a chance. champion for his stars. And so this is not an indictment of his character at all. I think he just got sloppy with a word, but the timing was awful. And it sounds, I'm not trying to sit here and play the violin, but like, obviously, you write something like that. There's a lot of folks who don't agree. And, you know, and I've had people coming at me a little bit since I wrote it.

But my thing is, you did the interview with Jackie McMullen the day after the election. You've got to be living in a cave, and Phil is the exact opposite when it comes to politics and world happenings. Phil is extremely aware. You sit down the day after the election where a guy in Donald Trump gets elected who stands for so many things that so many people find offensive, but then more importantly, that so many minorities are terrified of. And then you have the other context, the fact that even long before he got elected, the KKK had endorsed him, they had already announced they're going to have a parade in North Carolina. These are not normal things.

KKK, last couple decades, had mostly been in the shadows. Now they're comfortable. If you're a black person in America today, like if ever there was a perfect storm where you were going to be very sensitive to the words that other people chose, it's right now. And Posse traditionally, historically, talking about African-American infantrymen,

and even 1993 there was a movie called Posse with Mario Van Peebles and the whole premise. I mean, it's a little muddy because it's a law enforcement term, right? It's sheriffs and his posse. But in terms of vernacular, if you fast forward to sports in the modern era, you're mostly talking about it's in the same category, in my opinion, as Doug, where people reach for that word too loosely, too easily, without realizing that there's a certain connotation there.

And it's somewhere in between, to me, it's not even the racial side as much as it is the just the casting aspersions negativity side. It's, you know, it's wrongdoers. I think that's a major point, right? Forget the whole race part of it, right? Because I don't think we need to get in debates. We have enough debates about, is this guy racist? Is this guy racist? I don't think anybody sits around going, Phil Jackson's a racist.

There is no way around it. Posse has a negative connotation. Anybody that wants to argue anybody that wants to argue differently is just being an idiot I mean of course it does Nobody says posse positively All right

He's got the best posse around If you met those guys They're fantastic Nobody does that And And again I like Bill But man

He goes on Twitter last night I don't know if you saw this He retweets Clarence games And I kind of didn't like that And Clarence is a longtime friend and Coffinot of his, worked for the Knicks now. Excuse me. And he's also African-American. So I kind of was annoyed by that.

Like retweeting Clarence when you're getting criticized for this type of a thing is like me raising my hand and saying, I have black friends. Like that kind of bug me. Then what he actually retweeted was the Posse Foundation, which is a very positive organization that tries to uplift. The problem with that is because he's trying to act like he was saying in a positive of light. Well, credit to Rachel Nichols, at ESPN and her research team, I don't know who found it, but in Phil's book in 2004 the last season, he has a paragraph where he very clearly states that his concern about young players being in the NBA is that they, you know, the psychological impact of their possees and these guys that fetch their girls and their women, sorry, their women

and their cars for them. Those were his words. So like, he's already on record talking about possees in the same exact kind of way that you and I are saying here. And so it's not, you know, like you said, if he feels like I'll be damned if I'm going to apologize because I'm not a racist, like that's not where this conversation should be. That's not the accusation. But it's okay to say I should have been a little more careful. Stan Van Gundy came out yesterday, talked about the power of awareness and evolving and just realizing that certain words might strike people a certain way.

And that's my biggest thing, whether it's LeBron or anybody else in the country right now, is like, good God. You know, I'm getting yelled at for being empathetic. That's a bad thing. You know, it obviously bothered Maverick Carter and LeBron. These guys have gotten their team to the place where LeBron is the 11th person on the Forbes Celebrity 100 list of wealth. More importantly, and shameless plug here, our Jeff Zilgett had the scoop on this today, and in our print edition and online, he's very charitable.

just gave $2.5 million to the Muhammad Ali wing at the Black History Museum. He's sending more than 1,100 kids to college on his foundation's dime, potentially $41 million. So the guy has earned the right to not have him and his people described as a posse. It's also interesting that you have a choice if you're LeBron. It's fair to say, right? Sam, is we're just, is there hash in this controversy that has taken place in the NBA over the course of the last week out?

LeBron's reaction to it set the stage for all of it. It goes away completely if LeBron stands up for him, right? If LeBron stands up for him, be like, hey, man, I don't think, you know, I've known Phil a long time. I don't think he meant anything by that, you know, blah, blah, blah. But because LeBron took offense to it, it made it, and then said, I lost respect. I used to have respect for him. Basically, I've lost respect for him. That that's what triggered everybody to have the reaction that they did.

It was all going to be, it wasn't necessarily just this independent statement by Phil and then people decide whether they are offended by it or not. But the fact that LeBron was made it the story that it was, right? And right, and rightfully so, right? LeBron is entitled to feel. He's entitled to feel however he wants about that. That's the thing. Like it's not even rightfully so. It's just, it's just he, you know, we're all entitled to feel the way.

I mean, you got, you don't agree. You want to yell at me about the column? I respect your opinion. You know, and the respect is lacking right now. And Maverick Carter got the ball rolling because he tweeted about it. If anybody doesn't know, that's his longtime business manager, also a longtime friend. So Maverick tweeted about it, and then made it clear I'm not calling Phil Jackson a racist, but every time you move up in the world, they remind you, you ghetto.

That's what he tweeted. So LeBron stands by Maverick. And the other funny thing that is worth noting here, Chris, is like, none of this stuff in terms of social controversy, social discussions, it never fits into a perfect box, right? So there's part of me that looks at it and says, was LeBron offended? Clearly, yes. Maybe were there some other ulterior motives here? And now I'm just being psychologist.

But, like, when Phil Jackson kind of seems to be, like, taking up for Pat Riley and almost just acting as if, like, it's a real mystery why LeBron would leave Pat, because Pat, you know, is, have a good connection with his stars for, you know, all these years. LeBron probably doesn't like hearing that. Like, don't criticize me for leaving Miami. So maybe that bothered him. I don't know where his mind was at. It kind of reminded me a little bit of like the Colin Kaepernick situation where, you know, you take the stance that you take.

A lot of people get behind you and say, good for you, freedom of speech. And that's how you feel. And then, but then it gets muddy when it comes out that he didn't vote. Like none of this stuff is ever perfect. And so I'm not trying to say that LeBron is, you know, completely virtuous here. And if you don't see it his way, then you're wrong. I just think that, again, it struck him a certain way. It was days after our country was facing the kind of toxic landscape that we haven't seen in a long time.

Like I wrote, I mean, you've got known white nationalist getting appointed to positions of power in the White House. If I was a black man, a black woman right now, if I, especially as a father, if I had black children, I would be petrified. So I don't really, I'm not going to kill anybody right now who says they're offended with this kind of a thing because it's a tough time for them. Sam Amick from USA Today, you demand. Thanks, brother.

I appreciate you coming on the NBA show. It was fun, Chris. Thanks, buddy. All right, buddy. Talk to you soon. Sam Amick. Thanks for listening to another edition of the NBA show. If you like what we're doing, go leave us a rating and review on iTunes. Talk to you on Tuesday.

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