The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 45: The Greek Freak, Tanking Strategies, and CBA Changes With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: November 22, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Giannis Antetokounmpo's historic statistical feat (6:00), tanking advice for the Kings (14:00), Mark Cuban vs. Chandler Parsons (19:00), Kawhi Leonard's improved shooting (31:00), Evan Turner's poor start in Portland (40:00), and the expected changes in the upcoming CBA (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me today. And every Tuesday from now on is the ringer's Kevin O'Connor. What's up, Kevin? Chris, what's going on, man? So last night around the league, I think the thing that stood out the most was this crazy game by the Greek freak. Ends up with, as you chronicled on the Ringer today, the fourth player since 1984 to have at least 20 points, 10 assists, 10 rebounds, five steals, three blocks. I mean, this is, and the other three were Jordan, Hakeem, and Andre Carolenko.

By the way, there's a great bar bet for tonight, right? No one will ever get Carolenko. But he is seriously absurd right now, Kevin. Yeah, man, I mean, he's the reason why they won the game. He played all 12 minutes in the fourth quarter, really played well on both ends of the floor. I think over the course of the game, the bucks were a plus 14 when he was in the game I mean, pretty much when anybody else was in, they were either a minus or even. I mean, the dude's just a beast.

I mean, he does it on both ends of the floor, really? His only issue right now is the jump shot, especially in the half court. But everything else in the fourth season of his career, I would say he's far ahead of what I think anybody could have expected when he was drafted. And you mentioned the article today. I was looking back at what John Hammond, their general manager, said about him when he was originally drafted, just because I was curious. I mean, what were the initial expectations? I just wanted to reread that.

And he pretty much said what we're seeing today. They talked about how he's such a good player in transition, so fast for his size. I talked about his passing ability. And Hammond said, if he hits, this kid could be special. And we're really seeing that right now. He's having a career year so far. I remember how absurd it was during the draft, right? Like we didn't really know anything about him.

And then, of course, they do the whole Fran Frasilla thing. Fran knows everybody that plays anywhere, even in the most ridiculous gyms. They showed this video, and he's playing in what appears to be this desolate church gym against like a bunch of 5-8 white guys, and you're like, okay, like, he looks pretty awesome, but, I mean, look at, like, where is he playing? Yeah, it was weird scouting him because, so the 2013 draft definitely wasn't my best year. I missed on some guys, but I also hit on some, and I was pretty high on, you honest. I believe I had him ranked ninth, which was a lot higher than I think the average ranking was for him.

Just because you mentioned, even though it was hard to scout him, it was just the sheer size he had. I think he's seven foot now, but he was a little bit shorter when he was originally drafted. Just for his ability to move so smoothly up and down the court, take rebounds and go coast to coast, there was always concerns about his jump shot and there still is today. but he had the passing ability back then, and that could be seen against these small guys and these desolate church gyms, like you said. But everything was there in those gyms that we see today.

The fact that's translated so quickly, however, that's kind of the surprise to me. And the other thing is, like, just a, you're mentioned, like when you mentioned in the article, which I don't know, I guess, you know, I realized that he was very young when he was drafted, but your note that he won't turn 22 for two more weeks. I was like, wait, what?

It seems like he'd been around, you know? I know. Well, it is his fourth season, and that's the crazy thing. And that speaks to his work ethic and to the bucks. Coaching staff are really developing him as a player. And for the front office for continuing to surround him with talent, like Jabari Parker and Chris Middleton. They've really built a nice, solid young team.

And credit goes to everybody for a guy who's developed so cool. It's been really fun to watch and really the next key. I mean, he could stay at the level he is today, not get better at anything, and still be a great player for the rest of his career. But if he improves his jump shot, the sky is the limit, really, for him. He could become a top 10 player. Well, here's the interesting thing is you went, if I go back, I got to find that GM survey. Because now that you mentioned the whole his age thing, I wondered back, do you remember the whole if you were starting a franchise today? and you could sign any player, and Towns, like, ran away with it.

In fact, the top three were Towns, Durant, LeBron, James. Now, usually they would, you know, it's young guys that make that list. Famously, Anthony Davis was the overwhelming pick last year. This year, it's Carl Anthony Towns. Not even a vote for somebody like Janus. Like, I do wonder where he ranks on the young players in the league. If you're just trying to get a cornerstone guy, right? It'd be hard to come up with a guy that's got his talent and ability

already and that age. Yeah, you're right. I'm looking at this year if there wasn't a vote for him. Last year, I didn't see a vote for him. Last year it was all Davister and LeBron. This year there's a bunch of guys. But yeah, you know what? I do wonder, like, if, you know, if John Schumann for that list

made every team pick a top five, how often will we find Atta Dekumpo in that top five? That would be something interesting because I would assume there's some teams who view him as, a potential best player in the league if he has that jump shot because really i mean he's not missing much else at the stage of his career and like we talked about he's not even 22 yet it's nuts let me go look up that 2013 NBA draft you said you had some misses on it this was a weak draft um Anthony Bennett Ola Dippo Anthony Bennett Ola Depot poor auto porter Cody Zeller

Alex Lynn nerlands noel god this is this is the McCollum at 10 um and then you get down to the Greek freak at 15. I mean, Stephen Adams went 12. You think he goes one? If we redo the 2013 draft, he goes one and I guess McCollum goes two, right? Yeah, I would think so. I think, I mean, top five probably, Janice, Stephen Adams, C.J. McCollum, maybe Caldwell Pope, Otto Porter, Noel. Dennis Shrewder. Yeah, Truder would be in that conversation. I mean, there's really not a lot of talent in this draft.

There was a very difficult draft to scout. Oh, oh, we missed Rudy Gobert. Rudy Gobert, yeah, that's right. 27th. Good grief. So Janus went 15 and Gobert went 27. The two biggest misses were the guys from overseas, for sure, right? I think that's fair to say.

So, yeah, he was the big standout from last night. I think the other thing is that I know that they were without Paul George last night in Indiana, but Golden State has gotten this thing humming now. Their offense is like just their defense can be possibly their Achilles heel at some point, I suppose. But offensively, when we predicted or everybody thought that they were going to be possibly one of the most devastating offenses we'd ever seen, it looks like it's on the fast track to getting there sooner than later. Yeah, yeah. You said it, Chris.

I think in some ways, the early season losses, people overreacted for them. In some ways, I had a conversation with another writer the other night. And he said to me, Kevin, do you think they need a room protector? And I was like, yeah, you know, it would be good for them to go out and get one. And his response was, no, no, no. I mean, do they need a room protector? Can they win the finals with the team they have now? And it's like, well, no, they don't need a room.

and protector. They could easily win with the squad that they're rolling. And they're not even hitting on all cylinders right now. You're right. They are starting to tick. But doesn't it feel like they still haven't had that 145, 150-point game that they really are truly capable of? I think they're really capable of a special performance like that that they haven't shown

yet. Regarding the standings as of today, it really feels like in the Western Conference, There's the clippers, the Warriors, the Spurs, and then it's just a grab bag of everybody else, except for obviously the teams that are at the bottom, right? We're pretty confident in what the Mavs and the Sons and the Pelicans are probably capable of. Yeah, all those teams are bad. But those other, I mean, outside of, it doesn't it feel like there's a big separation between those top three right now and then kind of just everybody else is in the mix together?

Yeah, yep. I'd say there's the top three and then there's the bottom one or two and then everybody else. Okay, so what do we do in tiers in the east? Is it Cleveland and then everybody else? Because the third place team, listen, the third place team in the east right now is the Bulls. And the fourth place is the Hornets. Yeah. I would say Cleveland's, in some ways in the East, I wonder, like you mentioned out,

bulls are three and Hornets are four. In some ways, I still put the Raptors and the Celtics ahead of them. Right. I'm not sold on them quite yet, but really it's still close that, you know, even if you throw them into the same group at this point of the year. And yeah, I mean, I'd say there's Cleveland, and then there's that Hawks, Bulls, Hornets, Raptors, Celtics group. And then after that, it's really hard to distinguish between the two years.

You wrote yesterday about teams that should already think about tanking. One of those that we covered last week was Sacramento, where it's like they're kind of just right in the middle. they're not good, but they're not horrific, and they're clearly playing to win. I really don't think they're going to tank, Kevin. In fact, I'd be shocked, especially with the new arena. They've got the new arena. They've got the new coach.

I think they really think they can win, and they're just being, they're foolish, thinking they can win big. But that was one of the teams you mentioned. So if you can, just touch on Sacramento, and then who else you think should already just pull the plug and decide, all right, we're going to just endure the long season that it takes in order to get a high draft pick. Yeah, so with the Kings, I agree with you that I don't think they're going to tank. I think the only way they would tank is if they decided, okay, we're going to trade cousins and we're going to trade Rudy Gay. I think then they would be tanking by default.

They just would be a team that's in a rebuilding phase. I think the main thing is Sacramento even if they continue even if they have solid performances they've had some close games this year they had the controversial win on

Sunday that against the Raptors with that buzzer the game tying three that was called off they look better that game I like the small ball lineup with cousins at center but even if they you know just come

with a few wins to get into the eighth seed. All you're waiting for is just that beat down in the first round. And I just, my main priority with the Kings, if I'm running the team, I'm saying to myself, how can we win a title? How can we best position ourselves to win a title? And sure, you could make an argument that hang on to Boogie is the best route there. But when 2018 free agency comes, or even better when the start of the 2017 season, comes, you're going to have that looming over your year the entire time. And I'm not convinced that Cousins would stay. I know a lot of Kings fans tout his loyalty and believe that he's someone who's going to want to stick with it. But I mean, come on. I just don't see how it's realistic

at all to assume that Cousins would enter 2018 free agency be wooed by some possibly some winning organizations that are offering him just as much money. And he's going to stay in the Sacramento, which he has never made the playoffs, which has been dysfunctional every season of his career, which has had six coaches and now it's seventh season. I just don't see, I just don't see how people can think that he'll stay there. So with that in mind, if you're the Kings, maybe the best path is to just move on from him and take what could be a very, very healthy trade package, including a top 10 pick, a young player, maybe two picks. I don't know what the package would be, but whatever it is, I think that would position you to rebuild.

Without worrying about having to win games right now, you can play your young players, you can play Scala Visi. You can play Papayana. You can play all these young guys and develop. Maybe Dave Yeager didn't sign up for that, but I don't know if he's signing up on being the six coach that gets fired over the cousin's tenure. So look, I just think development and going the young route is the best route for them. and maybe they'll see that eventually, and maybe they'll quote-unquote tank the year when really it's just a focus on development.

But they need the trade cousins first for that to ever happen. Let me slow you down just for a second. First thing I do is trade Rudy Gay. The Grizzlies traded Rudy Gay and made the Western Conference Finals. The Toronto Rackers traded Rudy Gay and ended up becoming an Eastern Conference Finals team. The trick in the NBA is trading Rudy Gay. Trust me.

So you're saying trade Rudy Gay. and then suddenly they're going to start winning games, and then they're going to be like, okay. Do you have any evidence to suggest that trading Rudy Gay does not make you awesome? No, I don't, Chris. There is no evidence to the contrary. If you trade Rudy Gay or Jeff Green, you become awesome. End of story. And Jeff Green, too.

Yeah, I don't know what Orlando was thinking getting Jeff Green, but that's another story. Yeah, so that's what I would do. If you want to, this is very simple. I mean, not that I'm an NBA advisor, but from what I'm, know the evidence suggests that if you trade rudy gay you become awesome it's happened to two teams already i won't argue that chris i won't will not argue that all right so the other teams that should be tanking um Dallas of course right i mean like what is what is the best possible scenario for Dallas i don't think cuban is going to be able to do it um i you know he he probably

knows and maybe he's more pragmatic than i think but i will tell you that they played against a Grizzlies on Friday night and scored 64 points in the game. It was one of the worst NBA efforts I've ever seen in my life. And that was Chandler Parsons return to Dallas. And Parsons hit a three in the corner and then blew a kiss to him, right? Wow. And blew a kiss to Cuba. Now, well, those guys are their buddies, their thickest thieves, right?

Or were at least. And after the game, there is a photo, I mean, you could probably find it somewhere. There is a photo of them embracing after the game. And you can see that Cuban like gets up in his ear, right, to like say something. And I actually, I asked Parsons what Cuban said to him. And he said, don't you ever effing blow a kiss at me again? And he's smiling. It's almost like, you know, like it's almost like when you see like those old gangster movies and the mob is like, you know, they're hugging you and smiling you.

but then they're saying something in your ear that does not match their expressions. Right? And he's like, and he was just mad. He's just mad about, he sits through those games and he lives and dies with it. And it is, you got to think, man, that's 70 more games of just being awful. And I wonder if he thinks if we get Devin Harris back, if we get Darren Williams back, if we get Dirk back, if we get Bo get back, we could salvage a season. You obviously think that that's not so. I mean, I do think they are going to at least try to win once they get, you know,

Dirk back and Darren Williams back. But it just doesn't seem like it's a feasible thing for them this year. They don't have a good team even when those guys return. And there's the serious question, you know, how good will Dirk actually be? I mean, those are Killies injuries or something that can linger over the course of the year. Maybe it's the type of thing where he's not able to play back. to backs or they have to rest them here and there. I just look at their squad and I'm thinking to myself,

even with Dirk, their bottom five team, right? I would say they're at least still a bottom five team because Dirk, Dirk can't carry them like he used to, I don't think. So Dallas, maybe the best path is to rebuild. And that's a tough thing to do when Dirk is on the twilight of his career. He would probably need to sign off on it a little bit, at least.

but he still has that other year maybe they can tank this season and then come back next year trying to compete they can have a fast turnaround this summer and that's kind of the topic here is tanking doesn't necessarily mean they have to rebuild

you know I mentioned with Miami but it also applies to Dallas that Pat Riley has said before that he has no interest in going through the draft he wants the fast rebuilds the trades and you set yourself up for those tricks when you have those top picks, right?

So if you're Miami or you're Dallas and you end up with the number one pick or you're any other team for that matter that has a top top one or two, three pick, you can use that asset in potential trades. We don't know who would become available. That's unpredictable. It's also possible that there are no players,

no star players available this summer. But if they are available, your position to really go for that guy by having the top pick that possibly that you otherwise never would have had if you didn't tank a couple games towards the end of the season to try to get. All right. Well, the big thing about tanking is, you know, you're tanking because it's for the draft. And I have not started looking into this.

Is this draft considered to be like a loaded draft or a really good draft? Yeah. So this year's draft, I would say it's more pop-heavy. There's a lot of potential star talent in the lottery. So last year, I think it kind of fell off after the first. five guys in my opinion. I know there's a clearly defined top two with Ben Simmons and Brandon Engram, but I kind of had the top five in one group. This year, it's hard to pick out one guy that is the guy that you're tanking for. In my opinion, it's Markell Foltz,

but in someone else's eyes, it might be Jason Tatum. To someone else, it might be forward Josh Jackson from Kansas. To someone else, it could be Dennis Smith, a point guard from NC State. This is a draft where there's arguments to be made for different players at this time, at least. That could change by June when the draft is actually happening. But there's a lot of guys that you could look at and say, okay, they belong in the top three. And those guys go down to maybe the 13th pick or so at this stage. So I'd say throughout the whole lottery, there's potential stars. And I don't want to over-hype the draft because all these guys aren't going to, all these guys aren't going to become stars.

but there are players that you can look at and see star potential. And that's a little bit different than the past few years where it would fall off after the top five or six. So you don't necessarily need to tank to have a shot at a star player, but obviously you want to be higher in the pecking order to have your choice at a guy. And like I said before, some of these guys are going to rise. I think a guy like Markov, Fultz, in my opinion, he's head and shoulders above everybody else. I view him as the clear guy who is the number one pick, and I don't expect that to change it all.

If anything, I think it will be reinforced. So I think he's the guy to tank for. I don't want to compare him James Hardin, but at the same time, the pace he plays with, he can turn it up, just his ability to score from all levels of the floor to shoot threes at his age. It's just a really good, versatile guard

that he's exactly the type of guy you want to build around him to his NBA. All right, a quick word from our sponsors. It's officially basketball season, so it's time to ask yourself a crucial question. Where will you be watching the games? Parked on a stool at a crusty sports bar pass, crammed onto your friend's couch. Ma' you can do better. With Sling TV, watch NBA basketball on your terms and your turf.

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Go to vice land.com to find out your channel and check out some free episodes. The brand is strong. All right, Kevin, now that we've talked about the teams that we think should tank and then this Fultz that you think it would be worth tanking for, let me get to something else you wrote about recently, which is guys that can fix their shot. You wrote about it in the terms of the Kauai effect and guys that come into the league, I believe Quay Leonard hit like 25% of his threes, his last two years at San Diego State, and clearly has transformed himself into an extremely good shooter. And you used a couple of different guys. You used Justice Winslow, used Andrew Wiggins. And I think even earlier in the show, we talked about the Greek freak and right, like he would be a jump shot away from being maybe the most devastating player we could possibly imagine.

If you can't just speak to this whole Kauai effect and what you think it means towards the future of young guys coming in the league and then maybe patience with the shot. So with the Kauai effect, it's not like it's necessarily anything new that teams look at athletic players and they think, oh, if only he could develop a jump shot. But I think with Kauai, it's kind of warped our expectations that, you know, a guy can step in and then suddenly become. a 40% three-point shooter. That's really unique what happened in San Antonio. I think it comes from his coaching from his work ethic and maybe just just pure luck in some ways that he was able to become such a great shooter so quickly. And he's still, and he's constantly getting better as well.

So guys like Andrew Wiggins, for him, it's been more of a progressive thing. He shot roughly 30% from three in his first two NBA seasons. And this summer, he worked on his shot mechanics more. It was an area of focus between him and his trainer, Drew Hanlon, and we're seeing the early results. Now, it's probably not going to be sustainable at whatever percentage he is now, I believe, like 45% from three. But if he's hovering around 38% over the full season, that's a remarkable improvement for him in a single summer after a single summer of work. And that changes everything for a guy. So, you know, the other guys we talked about were Justice Winslow and Marcus Smart.

Winslow's shot is just not there yet. But if it is, that opens up everything for him. Having the jump shot enhances all his really premier abilities. He's a really good ball handler for his size, a good playmaker, a guy who can drive to the rim, but not having the jump shot, I don't think gives him, it doesn't allow him to always be a threat on the floor, right? Right now, he's a guy who's a threat kind of with the ball on his hands and in transition. But if he can become a good shooter, like, you know, Andrew Wiggins, like Kauai Leonard, then it opens up everything. There was an article.

This is a fascinating subject to me because I remember. I think people could probably Google it and go look this up. But the local paper in San Antonio, the San Antonio Express News at one point wrote this. It was like a series. And it was how the Spurs built Kauai Leonard. It's really good for any basketball fan out there. I would encourage you to go check it out. But I remember one of the stories from that article that has stuck with me was they have the, you even mentioned the coach.

Was it England? Is it Chip England, the shooting coach there? Yep. Okay, that they had gotten him. They had drafted Kawhi Leonard. And that was a big risk for them to trade George Hill and then draft him. But they had looked at his shot and thought this is correctable. And one of the things that I believe it was England said that Richard Jefferson, when they had gotten him, I believe from a while.

that he was like 30 years old and they fixed his shot and that Kauai's was a lot like his. But what happened is if you go back in time and this is an interesting thing in the development of what is a superstar player right now and why I remember this article so much. So Kauai gets drafted and then if this kind of gets lost in the shuffle, but there was the lockout. So they brought Kauai in and worked with him and worked with him and worked with him. the lockout. And so then he had until all the way until December. And they gave him like things he worked on it. And evidently, Kauai wrote down everything the guy said, right? Everything the

guy said Kauai wrote it down. And then what happened is during the lockout, Kauai just went and he went to a gym. And they gave him like the workouts to do. And he just did those workouts every single day, just like thousands of shots, right? Every single day. And when he came back, it wasn't, as they said, like a perfect form, but they were right there. They were almost there. So to your point, like, A, it takes some obviously good skill coaching, but so much is just dependent on the guy. You know, you can teach him what to do. And then as long as he's not going to revert to back to what he always did and is really committed to changing his style, I mean, he deserves a lot of credit for that because, and I do wonder if, like, what if there's not the lockout, right?

There's not a lot of practice time in the NBA. There's just not, you know, and so does that develop the same way if he's just not in an empty gym? Because really, you just have the summer. It's hard to change everything during the course of the year. You're playing games, you're traveling. There's really not a lot of practice time. And so, anyway, just to the whole fixing that shot. And, like, when you say, like, I feel like it needs to be the same.

summers almost when these guys fixed it. It just so happened in his case there was a lockout. Yeah, it has to be the summer. I'd say, and you know, last month we published an article called Meet the NBA shot doctors and I talked to a couple different shooting coaches across

the NBA, John Townsend from the Sixers and Ben Sullivan from the Hawks. And you know, that's really kind of one of the common things that, you know, everybody I talked to said is that a guy, you know, wants to be willing to improve. They need to embrace change. They need to embrace sticking to developing their mechanics because it's

hard to change your habits sometimes, you know, as people. And never mind as shooters, when you've been shooting a certain way for maybe your entire life. I mean, you mentioned Richard Jefferson. There's other players, you know, whose shots have been changed by Chip England. Tony Parker, I believe, Grant Hill, Shane Badiye, a lot of guys over the years. And Kauai, is really just the prime example. But in that article, I talked to Kent Baysmore as well, and he went into great detail of the things that him and Ben Sullivan went through to really change their shot.

And it's hard. It's a type of thing that has to happen over the summer. And then over the course of the regular season, you need to maintain those mechanics. So there needs to be sometimes maintenance. And this is the type of thing that I think happens in baseball. Hitters and pitchers will watch film of their mechanics. and they'll do little tweaks to maybe get themselves out of a slump

or to revert their batting stance to the position that it should be if something wrong is happening. And that's the same thing in the NBA, but the NBA doesn't have that same mindset. Kent Baysmore compared the shot to like a golf swing. And again, that's another sport where players are constantly checking their mechanics when they're not playing. So look, I think in basketball,

the one thing that really needs to have, is you need to have a coach who has a mindset that works with the player, and the player needs to be open to receiving that type of coaching. And it's not going to happen if you have a guy who says, no, no, I just go out there and shoot. The player needs to be open to change and open to really improving the little things of their shot to really become a great shooter. And it's not just basketball and baseball.

I recall years ago, Tim Tebow, who was as good a college player as you can imagine, two guys, one that is now the offensive coordinator of Texas A.N. Mazzone, another guy who's a quarterback coach named Zeeke Bartkowski, they took Tebow and they took him for like, you know, a month and a half straight and basically put him in a lab. And by the time he was going through his workouts and like everything for NFL teams, his throwing motion, his drops, everything. Like they had just trained him to do everything that way. And, of course, Tebow can't throw a, you know, football through a 60-inch TV screen from three feet away. But they had, they tricked the world. I mean, they got him drafted in the first round. And then, of course, he went to training camp and then he got, you know, on an NFL team. And he went back to throw in this sidearm craft that he always had, right? So, I mean, like, you can.

But, like, you know, that was the deal. Like, dude, just throw like this until you get drafted and then whatever. And then, you know, you end up all. lot of guys fall back into what they've done for the last 20-something years and been successful doing. I mean, it's not like that I want them to maintain those mechanics. It's just it's hard to do. I mean, it's a hard thing to do. And that's why with the Kauai effect to kind of circle back to that, not every player can do what Kauai did. It takes a lot of luck. And it just takes just an incredible work ethic. It doesn't mean you don't have a work ethic if you can't do it because, you know,

I think everybody has their limits to an extent, but it takes just extraordinary circumstances when it comes to coaching to personal success to really reach that level just to make these your new mechanics. And sometimes it's hard for the body just to take that on. That happened with Tebow, like you said, he went back to his weird little windup when he threw the ball. And for some players, it happens with their jump shots. And that's what Drew Hanlon said in a separate interview.

in regards to Andrew Wiggins, that the key for him now is just to maintain what he's doing over the course of the season. You need to make that your habit, make that feel like your natural shooting motion and never revert back to what you've done before. So it's hard for these players to do that. No matter what the sport is,

no matter what the motion is, whether it's your swing, you're throwing a football, you're shooting a basketball, you're swinging a golf club. It's hard to change mechanics, but it is doable over time, constantly work,

and getting the right type of coaching because not every coaching will get you to that level. I also wanted to ask you about an article you wrote recently about the collective bargaining agreement and that it appears as if the NBA that like we could get an announcement sooner than later on this and there will be no fear. Everybody's making a boatload of money and so at least to take the fear of a potential lockout out and you'd have to give great kudos to Adam Silver and Michelle Roberts for being able to get this done. But you had some of the things that are going to be changed in this collective bargaining agreement. Pre-season shortened.

Everybody is, of course, in favor of that. An amped up domestic violence policy. And I think that, you know, this is a new world, especially since the, really since the Ray Rice thing, wouldn't you say, I mean, that changed everything in all professional sports and collegiate sports for that matter, right? Because it was really the first time that there was a visual of what takes place. And so now every time you hear about domestic violence, that's what you think about. That's just the way it is, right?

Because there was never, everybody always could just say, oh, you know, maybe it's a he said, she said. But seeing in that kind of massive way what it looks like, I think was so jarring to everybody that now it's not one of those things that there's not a visual attached to. Domestic violence is attached to that Ray Rice video. all these leagues are being incredibly careful about. The other thing was the drug testing procedure, which was fascinating to me. So if you can just kind of go through some of the tweaks and some of the agreements that are going to be made, and what effect do you think it could possibly have?

So with the preseason being shortened, it's unclear how much it'll be shortened. Right now, I think it's seven games or eight games. Maybe that goes down to four or five. and if they were to do that, that would enable them to smooth the start of the regular season up. And if they were to do that, they would have more flexibility, more available days during the year. So that could potentially limit the amount of back-to-back teams have. It could completely eliminate the instances of four games and five nights. So that would be a great thing, not just for having less preseason games,

but also having better scheduling during the course. course of the year because no player wants to play back to back. No player wants to play four games and five nights. And they've done a good job at limiting those instances in the past two seasons, including this one. But they could really take it to the next level by moving the start of the regular season up. You mentioned the domestic violence policy. Again, it's unclear what exactly it'll be, but they're at least going to have a structure. The current CBA calls for a minimum 10 game suspension for players convicted of a violent felony. the language will change, but really the main thing that I understood is that they're also going to have these players, they're also going to provide guidance to these guys.

They're going to help them out, help their families out when things like this happen. It's not just going to be punishment. It's also going to be assisting them through the process. Well, and the other thing, and this is a lesson from the NFL, this is a lesson from the NFL and the catastrophe they've had, is getting together some kind of language and plan. where there is, you know, an agreement between players association and commissioner and or task force. Because what happened in the NFL is you have this one guy who lords over everything and makes verdict. And then when you, you know, when you say, all right, let's arbitrate this, he's the damn arbiter. Right?

So, like, he's like, he like gives you the punishment and then you go back into him and you're like, okay, how about less punishment? And, you know, there is no, like, other guy to get to talk to. And so that's, I think that is, the NFL screw up so badly on this was extremely instructive, I think, and especially for the NBA. And the fact that, you know, you do, in fairness, you get, you, you get to not make those mistakes. If you made those mistakes after you have seen the catastrophe that the NFL has been in these particular types of cases, then that's on you, man. But I'd figure, I'd imagine they get it right, you know, or at least they can learn from the NFL's mistakes to get it right. Yeah, I would say, I would say just do the opposite of what the NFL does. So if tomorrow there, or let's say in May, there's a story, LeBron James allegedly deflates a basketball before a game.

Don't drag him through the water if it's just allegedly and there's no evidence of that, especially if they brought the ball out into the cold before the game. Who was the guy? Wasn't there like a guy? I remember reading a book with that. I think it was Bill Bradley, the guy that became the senator, I think. I'd have to, I don't know. Somebody who listens to the podcast is going to tell me what. But he used to, like, carry a needle out to the floor.

I'm being serious about this. And he would ask the refs for the ball, and he would, like, sneaky, like, deflated a little bit. I'm like, you made that. Shack said, Shaq and Phil Jackson both admitted that they inflated balls. I mean, who knows if they're even being serious? That's just a silly story. and I still can't believe it actually happened. Let's get to the drug testing procedure.

Yeah, so the drug testing, it doesn't sound like they're going to remove marijuana off the banned substance list, despite the fact that there are now a total of 20 teams out of 30 that at least partially have marijuana legalized, whether it's for recreational reasons or for medical reasons. So that doesn't seem like it's going to change, which is a little bit surprising to me.

Maybe that'll change by the time this is, finalized. But what does sound like it'll change is the drug testing process. I was told it'll be tightened so players won't have to hang around in the locker room for 90 minutes to two hours after the game. Now it's going to be a tighter process, easier for the players to get their testing done and then they're done. So players seem to be okay with that. Maybe that's the compromise. I don't really know. But it does seem like it's going to stay on the banned substance list. Yeah, NBA doesn't care about weed. They don't. They don't.

How many guys, how many, how many, like, you got to get pulled over with it. Seriously. What is it? What is it? What is it? PR to keep it on? I mean, you're, you're right. I don't think they care either.

No, no, no. I'm saying, how many guys, listen, I'm saying how many guys they suspend over this stuff? Oh, I know. It's, it's essentially not a problem, right? And I think you got to fail three times before anybody even knows. Like, you wouldn't even, I could go, you could, you could test me twice. Like, first, they'll do the counseling crap and then they'll do whatever. So, I mean, like, like, like, like, like,

Like, you got to be a real bozo to get caught like three times in a season. You know what I mean? Because it doesn't even become public. You and I wouldn't even know if a guy smokes weed until, I mean, you got to get pulled over in a hot-boxed car with a little sack. You don't mean to get busted for weed in the NBA. I remember Kevin Duran a couple summers ago. There was the thing of TMZ or somewhere where the little canister of medicinal marijuana rolled out of the truck. Wait was getting out of a.

But they don't test during the summer. summer so yeah no it's it the hard drugs they still do care like you know what I mean you can't you can't be you can't be tested and the big thing is codeine honestly yeah purple drank as they call it they um you know they don't want any part of that but I I mean I don't think it matters whether weeds on the band list or not they they clearly unless you want to believe that these guys don't smoke weed it just doesn't get enforced like come on like it never gets enforced How many guys are sitting out because they smoke weed? Mitch McGarry, Larry Sanders.

There's guys that are losing jobs that are having their careers ruined because it's on the band's substances. And maybe those guys actually do have a problem. Maybe they actually do. But there's also a chance that they just really like smoking weed. But you got to remember, Kevin, you've got to get caught like three times. I know, I know. Yes, you have a problem. If you get caught twice.

and you know you've already gotten caught twice and you still are smoking weed. Like, come on. Oh, yeah, you're right. You know what I mean? First, you've got to get caught twice and then still do it. And you know you've been caught twice. All right, so there's some of the CBA stuff. All right, let me hit you with some quick hits to round off this podcast,

things that have happened in the last week. One of the things that you mentioned in a sidebar or rather a note in one of your article was, we thought maybe going into the year that it might be a goofy fit for Evan Turner in Portland because you have guys that dominate the ball there and he was a guy that Brad Stevens once realized he can make plays but he's got to have the ball in his hands in order to be an effective player now he is on a team where other guys need the ball and frankly better players need the ball than him this is this has gotten off to a very poor start for a for a big free agent signing in Portland.

Yeah, Evan Turner had his best game on Sunday night, and it was perhaps his only good game of the season so far, at least statistically. Turner last season, I think kind of the dirty little secret was that statistically, the Celtics were, again, better when he was off the floor than they were when he was on the floor. And that's what we're seeing to the extreme this year with the Blazers.

And the reason why is because he's good. He's effective when he has the ball. ball in his hands when he's running picker and roll and he's driving to the room and either drawing files or creating for others he's good but when he doesn't have the ball on his hands he is a complete non-factor um you're not worried about him shooting threes you're you're begging him to shoot threes of your defense um and that's the issue you have a guy that needs the ball in his hands to be an effective player on the offensive end and look they're not going to take the ball on a damien lillard or c j mccalms hands and let Turner go to work.

Those guys are all-star-level players. So with Turner, I think really it's up to him to improve as a shooter off the ball, off the catch. So he's not a, so he doesn't limit their offensive spacing when he's on the floor. Because then he can be at least a mild threat to shoot and a pretty good threat in the pick and roll or in isolation situations or in post-ups because he's not a bad player. I view him personally as an Andre Iguidala light type of player. He's not quite Iggy's level on either end of the floor, but he can do a lot of different things.

He rebounds, defends multiple positions. He's really good against mismatches. I like Turner a lot, but he needs to improve his jump shot in order to be effective at all times on the floor. Under Armour CEO says sales are down for the Steph Curry shoes. Your thoughts? Oh, man, I'll tell you what, Chris. I don't know anything about shoes. What kind of shoes are you wearing right now?

Right now I have socks on. What shoes do you wear most often? So I like wearing vans, and I do have these Under Armour running shoes. They're not Steph Curry's, but they're very comfortable walking. Are you a skater? No, I'm not a skater. I don't know. Skaters just wear vans.

No, I like vans. No, I'm not a shoe guy, man. Never have been. I just can't stomach spending $300 on a pair. That's just me, though. I think it's cool if other people are into it. Well, I'm wearing a pair of Jordan 3 cements, so I can't speak. Now, part of the Curry thing is the shoes weren't that great looking.

I actually like the new ones, but the other thing is, like, hey, surprise, surprise. The guy that was like the best player on a team that blew a 3-1 lead, like, isn't selling as many shoes as when he won the title. Imagine that, right? Like, I mean, people rock with winners. I bet LeBron's sales are great. You are right, though, Chris. I mean, those were some ugly-ass shoes.

I have those. They became a meme on the internet. I have them. I have those. You have them? I do, I do. I have a pair. I said if they won game four, I would buy them. And they won that game four in Cleveland.

And then, of course, Dremont, you know, hit a guy in the Nards, and they blew the series. I did buy them almost. It was, I was just trying to be counterculture. So you bought the white ones. Yeah, oh God, yes, I bought the white ones. Yeah, all right. Because everybody was hating on them so much that I was like, you know what, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be counterculture. All right.

I'm going to show you, like, you hate these so much and you're goofing on them so much. I'm going to buy them just to spite you. And I will tell you that I respect that. But I will tell you. that like I bought them because you see the memes and you see the pictures and whatever and then I bought them A extremely comfortable but B uglier in person than they are on the internet Oh I saw them when I was shopping for my running yeah they're outrageous Yeah and I looked at them in person and I and I and I tried on a pair of it they don't feel great

And it's well no they feel good but it's like a it's like a pillow tongue like the whole thing is The whole shoe was just a debacle. It really is. All right. Detroit, possibly moving downtown. There was a report that the Detroit Pistons, I don't know. Have you ever been there? I've been there once. I have not, Chris.

Okay. I don't know how many people know this. All right. A, the arena is frigging huge. Like, I actually, I didn't go for a Pistons game. I covered an NCAA tournament there. they put me, my media seat was literally above the catwalk in this stadium. And they, I mean, it's got to be over 22,000.

I mean, I'm telling you, this arena is huge. But it's out in Auburn Hills. When you fly into Detroit, it's like 45 minutes to an hour to get there. Like they don't play anywhere near Detroit. It's far, man, far. Okay. And so it's weird because you drive out. It would be like, I don't know, you know, when you see it's Auburn Hills, but they're the Detroit Pistons.

But like a lot of cities, they're, you know, right downtown. You go to Oklahoma City, you walk out the door, you're in Oklahoma City. You go to Memphis, you walk out the door, you're in Memphis. You go, I mean, all over, you know, you're pretty well in the city. They are, like, really far out. So I actually really love this idea of them moving into the city. I guess the story was the owner lived out there. It's obviously, you know, very affluent part of town.

but it's weird because it's like your regular old suburb, and then there's this big-ass arena in the middle of it, you know? And there's no like city, really, right? It's just like you would be in any suburb USA and then a massive arena in the middle of it. And it's far from the airport, like far, especially if traffic's bad. So I hope Detroit moves downtown.

I always like the authenticity of a city being in. in the downtown of wherever these, you know, whatever they wear on their chest, right? I'm looking right now on Google Maps, and it says it's a, at this moment, 12.07 p.m. Eastern, that it's a 50-minute ride out to the palace at Auburn Hills from the airport. It's crazy. But for Caesar's Arena, where they're moving to, it's a 23-minute drive. So it cuts the drive in half from the airport. maybe more players live downtown, right?

So maybe it'll be easier on the guys on the team as well, never mind the teams traveling into the city. So yeah, I think it's a good move. And I remember reading this morning, I believe, in the Detroit Free Press that it'll generate more economic impact for the city, create more jobs. So hopefully that's the case that it works out for everybody. All right.

Last thing, I got to bust your ass on something because you wrote about the Odin saying he was the biggest bust. But then you kind of just casually mentioned Kwame and Ola Wakandhi and some of these guys, right? Who really did nothing? And you ain't even going to mention Hashim Thabit? Okay. I mean, I was focused on number one picks. Just to be fair.

I don't care if it was number one or number two. The beat literally never did anything ever. Like Kwame Brat or Ola Kandhi, at least they had like a couple games, like a couple of games probably, that were good games. Like, machine the beat never did anything. You had a scoop, Chris. You were there in Memphis for the first year and a half of this career. I mean, what happened? Listen, I did a bit on the radio before he got drafted.

I threatened to commit suicide on the front steps of the forum if they took him. And they still took him. I think they wanted me to kill my phone. They still took the guy. I'm like, are you serious? Or imagine if they took James Hardin. Stefan Curry. all the names available.

Oh, yeah. Why don't you keep on reading them off? DeMarjorosen. Tyreek. Tyreek was right there. Rubio, you would have had a wait a while. Hey, I'm going to tell you, hey, listen to this. I should not cop to this, but I will.

That year, Hardin went three years. Is that right? Yeah. I went to all the workouts for that draft. I would have been mad. I mean mad, mad, mad. if they would have taken James Harden. I thought he, oh, I thought he was a dog.

Now, again, in fairness, his name didn't come up till late in the year. If you go back in time, so I go out of my way to watch the NCAA tournament with Arizona State when he's in it, right? They were won and out, and he was awful in the tournament game. So that, like, had a big impact on me, right? I'm watching it. I'm like, dude, I don't want anything with this old man move guy. then he comes to the workout here and was awful terrible I mean he's bad man and I don't know if he was dogging it because he didn't want the grizzies to draft him or what but I in retrospect I've

never there's the two guys that I was totally wrong on after seeing them work out in a draft workout were Hardin and Paul George those two guys because George just got thrown around by other guys right he just didn't he looked like a laissez-faire I'm really talented, so I don't have to play that hard kind of guy to me. But, damn. I guess, hey, no big whoop. I was just wrong about like two of the 10 best players in the NBA. You have a feature in this, Chris.

No big whoop. Hey, maybe I'm better at telling you when a guy's awful. I don't know. Exactly. I got beat up last week, and people were tweeting me throughout the week defending. You remember when I said you and I had the argument about Collie Stein. Oh, yeah, I saw those tweets. And I said I don't like guys that can't shoot, pass, or dribble.

And then they were like, well, D'Andre Jordan can't, Tyson Chandler, can't. Like, they were naming off all these, like, really awesome rebounders. So allow me to correct myself. I don't like guys that can't dribble, pass, shoot, or rebound. You're going to add on that one. That's a big one. That's a big qualifier. It's harder to find those guys.

now. All right. Kevin O'Connor, have an unbelievable Thanksgiving break, brother. We'll catch up with you next week. You too, Chris.

All right, thanks, man. Kevin O'Connor, thanks for listening to another addition to the NBA show. If you like what we're doing, head over to iTunes, give us a rating and review. Everybody have an unbelievable Thanksgiving.

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