The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 46: Conference Playoff Outlook, and Three Guys Better Than Their Stats Suggest

Episode Date: November 29, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Russell Westbrook's triple-double standard (5:00), decide which teams are out of the playoff picture in each conference (15:00), pick three guys who are better than their stats suggest (22:30), and break down Kevin Love vs. Klay Thompson(38:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to another dish of the ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon joining me on this Tuesday, as he will, every Tuesday throughout the NBA season. Kevin O'Connor from the ringer. What's up, Kev? What's going on? Chris, thanks for having me on today. So last night, you wrote the King of the Corde feature on The Ringer today. Last night, the big story is Russell Westbrook and now averaging a triple double.

You somehow dutifully tied this into Westworld, which I don't watch. Do you watch West World? I watch West World every single Sunday night, Chris, and I love every moment of it. Oh, you'd recommend. Yes. I can't recommend it enough, honestly. It's one of those shows that, for me, every Monday morning, I'm already looking forward to the following Sunday. And there aren't a lot of shows that I've watched in my life where I just can't wait for the next episode, Breaking Bad being one of them.

West World, it's only season one, so it's a perfect time to start going and binge watching. The first nine episodes leading up to Sunday's finale, you seriously got to watch it. All right. How long would it take me to get interested? Like after one episode, am I going to be interested or no? Yeah, I think so. But it's the type of show you can't be like looking at your phone or like watching an NBA game while you're watching it. You've got to be all in on West World focusing on it because it definitely requires that amount of attention in order to follow some of the stories.

I got a short attention span. So like I really need the first episode something. I remember in a, now I never finished it, so this is probably a bad example. You remember in like Game of Thrones like the first episode, the kid like flies out the window at the end of the first episode? I was like, damn it, what happened? And then I had to watch the next episode. I know what she mean.

Like you get to rewind sometimes, I suppose. All right. So let's tie it back to Russell Westbrook, though you have given a rave review for Westworld. Russell Westbrook now averaging a triple double after last night. And one of the crazy things that came out is I saw, you wrote about it today. Other analysts were talking about it last night, this comparison to Oscar Robertson, who famously had a season where he averaged a triple double. I was previously unaware of the ridiculous amount of possessions less that today's players actually used,

the amount of shots, the amount of rebounds. Like, Westbrook is doing this with less available opportunity than Robertson did. I didn't realize the game was that fast way back when. Yeah. So last night, I was just thinking like, okay, what are the differences between the season Oscar Robertson did it and what Westbrook is doing now through 19 games? And the obvious thing is pace. I mean, back then, teams played a lot quicker.

And honestly, like you said, I was surprised at just the different. difference in the shots per game. In 1962, when Oscar Robertson did it, they attempted over 107 shots per game, whereas today it's about 84 shots per game. So there's a lot fewer possessions for Westbrook to tally all these numbers, get all these rebounds, all these points and assists that he's getting. And people say he's hunting for rebounds, and that's kind of true to an extent. But there's still less opportunity for him to actually do it. And the fact he is is really remarkable. What do you think the chances are? Give me a percentage chance he could pull this off.

I mean, we are almost a fourth of the way through the season. Percentage chance he could really end the season averaging a triple double. How about, you know, I'm going to say 40%. I'm not going to give over 50. Just because it's so hard to do, and there are so many variables over the course of the year. And I think at some point, at some point during the season, There's going to be a time where he's just not crashing the boards as much, or they're requiring him to score a little bit more,

which leads to fewer assists. I just, I think he'll be close, but I don't know if he'll get the 10 rebounds and the 10 assists. Okay, so which would you think he'd be less likely to get? I almost think the assist, because you're dependent on other guys hitting shot. Yeah, yeah, it's like in a way you can almost control the rebound. but the assists dependent on his teammates who, quite frankly, aren't great. So I think I'd lean towards the assist as well, Chris.

But, man, it's hard. I mean, I want to say he'll get it, but it's just such a hard thing to do. The Warriors won their 12th game in a row, and they're really rocking. They beat Atlanta last night, and the two Dremont stops down the stretch were just absurd, getting switched on to Schrooter, and then just packing him, and then he stopped. Jobs Baysmore and slaps it off of him out of bounds. I mean, these are two plays with the game on the line.

He jabbered after the game about how, you know, he's kind of pissed off that after they lost Bodeget, people thought their defense would go downhill. And so he's got something to prove and yada, yada, yada. And so, you know, a lot of attention will be paid to the jabbering afterwards. But just in terms of the actual plays, I mean, those are like defensive savant plays. He was ridiculous. Yeah. like you said he feels a little bit slighted and at the same time I mean that whatever works right

like whatever is going to push you to to maximize your abilities last night I was talking to Ricky O'Donnell from SB Nation and Adi Joseph from sporting news and we kind of talked about you know what's more important because Andre Godala said how there's a few tricks there's nothing special about what Dremont does it's just effort you got to want it and and Ricky said well he's got long arms, he's a freakish athlete, he's super quick for a big guy. That's why he's so great, and that's true. But I think really what Dremont has is he has all the qualities that you look for in a defender. He has the long arms. He has the quickness. He has the strength, but he also plays with maximum effort, and he's super smart. I mean, he has, he's just a melting pot of all

the traits that you want to have in a defender. And quite frankly, some of the plays we saw last night from him were just examples of why he is arguably the best defender in the league. Arguably, they should be one of the leading highlights on his defensive player of the year. Highlight real. So I think what he's doing is really remarkable. And whatever his motivation he needs to push himself to play at that level is pretty cool thing. I love Iguidal saying that. I love that coaches are going to go tell a little Bobby today at practice.

It's just all about effort. But that is so bogus. I mean, of course, a freak of. nature. And Andre Aguadala is the one saying that, right? Yeah. There's, you know what I mean? There's nothing, there's no mystery. You just got to, you know, you just got to play hard. Well, like, dude, I don't, I don't know. Like, Kyle Corver can play as hard as he wants. He's not he's not staying in front of somebody. I'm sorry. For sure. Right. That's true. That's 100% true. But, you know, my argument is, is that it, the truly transcendent defensive players are the ones who

have those athletic traits, but they also do have the intangibles, just like the other way around. If you have a guy with all the intangibles but no athleticism, he's not going to be a good defender, but neither is a guy who is all athleticism and really no effort or no basketball IQ on the court. It's the blend of those attributes that makes him so great and other guys so great, like Iguodala himself. Oh, that's 100%. I mean, listen, the NBA is, in fairness to Iguado. because I goofed on it. In fairness, the NBA is littered with outstanding athletes that are not great defenders.

And a lot of that is effort, right? I mean, they could be amazing defenders, right? And so to his point, that is true. But the guys that are truly special, they also have those athletic traits. I think it may better said that, like, you can't just try real hard and be. a great defender. But on the other hand, there are a lot of guys that if they tried really hard, they could be great defenders. I think about a guy like Jeff Green. Jeff Green, he's probably one of the, like in the top percentile of athletes in the league. But he, A, doesn't put in good

effort. I think you know that, seeing him with the Grizzlies, he's done on every team he's been on where he shows flashes of what he can be, but he never puts it all together. He doesn't have great basketball IQ or feel. I don't think he feels the game, Jeff Green. But he's a guy where if he did have those attributes, I could easily see him being one of the best defenders in the league. But he's not. He's not unless he locks in all the time.

And he commits to locking in. But that's something he's never really done for any relevant stretch of his career. Oh, no. I've been there, too, with him. Jeff Green, and prior to Rudy Gay. Rudy Gay could be an outstanding defender. There is, I mean, if you want, you want to put Rudy Gay up against any of the athletes, he's right there, he's top tier. It's just a, it's a level of disinterest, right?

I mean, they're just like, you either really want to bear down and you either get humiliated and it matters to you when your guy scores or doesn't, right? No, exactly. And there's a lot of guys that honestly make their way in the NBA just by caring so much if their guy scores against them because coaches love guys that are going to go out there. and defend. So the Warriors won their 12th in a row. They're humming now, right? I mean, it started off at the beginning of the season, and they took the losses, and everybody was like, well, maybe they, maybe they didn't,

maybe they shouldn't get rid of Bogia. Maybe their bench is a little lighter than it used to be, whatever. Now it's, like, things have started to settle in, right? Through the first week of the season, we're like, hey, maybe the nets aren't going to be terrible, and maybe this is going to happen. Maybe this is going to have, right? So, all right, we're now far enough into the season. Guess what?

The Warriors are totally awesome, right? Yep, sure are, Chris. All right. The other one that I do think is worth noting is everybody's darling was the Minnesota Timberwolves, and they're digging themselves quite a hole now. After getting beat last night at home by Utah, they are 5 and 12 to start the season. And so, I mean, you're getting to a longer trek back to 500. You know, it's hard at the beginning.

If you dig yourself a real hole, you can have a really good second half of the season. season, but man, now you're, now you're getting to get out of the whole mode first. Are you surprised that we're looking up 17 games into the season and it's not like they've been killed by injury. Minnesota just has not played well. Yeah, I'm surprised. I picked them for the playoffs and I'm feeling not very smart right now. They have just completely fallen short of expectations that I had at least.

And I think that a lot of other people shared as well. and man it's they are so great in the first half of games and I think a lot of people on Twitter talk about this they just fall apart in third quarters they didn't last night but over the course of the season they they have and I just don't know if even if they fix that third quarter issue it doesn't necessarily mean they'll maintain their stellar play in the first half things things will equalize over the course of the year I think you know you mentioned how the net started off maybe they're not as bad as well as we're not as bad as well. think or the Warriors, maybe they're not as great as we think. Well, the wolves probably aren't a

superpower in the first half, right, like they are so far this season. They're probably not the worst team in the league in the third quarter either. They're somewhere in the middle, and that team is probably exactly what their record is, five and 12, a six and ten type of team. I just don't know what the solution is. I watch this team, and I have a hard time putting a finger on what they need to do. Part of me wonders. I mean, a couple weeks ago, I wrote the article about teams that should tank. I'm wondering if maybe they should actually be one of those teams because there have

been rumors for years now about them wanting to trade Ricky Rubio. Maybe. Maybe it would make sense for them to add another top player in the draft and suddenly have a core of Wiggins, towns, done, and whoever else they pick. I would, you know what, I'd look around. I'd see what kind of, I'd see what kind of, uh, of, uh, a return I could get on Levine. I think I'd build around.

I'd build around Wiggins and towns and get me role guys around them, right? Yeah. I think, I mean, but is Levine one of those role guys? No, he's not a role player. He's not a guy that's just going to settle into a role. Like, you need these, you know, every one of these teams, you go back through time. They've got the Rick Fox, they've got the Bruce Bowen, they've got these type of players, right? And sometimes that, you know, where you're putting them, those are the best fits next to stars, is to get legitimate guys that know their role, willing to play their role, keep the ball moving.

I mean, that team's got two bona fide possible superstars. And I think I would look and I would build. I would try to, I try to see what kind of value I could get for some of my other guys and build with some really good role players around them. No, that does make sense, Chris. I mean, but maybe, you know, depending on what they want to do, I know, I know people were saying Thibito wants to deal for a veteran, right? I'm pretty sure that's been a rumor that's been floated around out there. But maybe, maybe the other side of that is, you know, if you were to deal Levine for one of those role players that you're mentioning, one of those veteran players, your team might get a little bit worse immediately because Levine is one of their top scores. He's one of their top three-point shooters. So maybe you get a little bit worse. with your current build, but you're building for later. I'm just trying to think about what's the best approach for them. You think about these teams, though, in the past, right?

And listen, I'm not, Wiggins and towns are not Shaq and Kobe, but I do think that it's instructive. If you take a look back and you go, all right, they were playing with Robert Ory and Derek Fisher and Rick Fox and Ron Harper, these kind of guys, right? That's who's around the stars. And even in Houston when they made their run to the finals, It's Patrick Beverly.

It's Trevor Reza. It's Corey Brewer. You've got stars and you've got role players on teams. And I just don't know. That's what I'd do if I was in the GM of the Wolves, but what do I know? What would you do? Now that we're looking at these standings as of, like we're saying, almost a fourth of the way through the season for some of these teams,

is it fair to say the only ones we would kick out in the east? And we'd say, okay, these teams don't have any shot at the playoffs. are I would kick out Orlando, Miami, Brooklyn, and Philly. I'll leave Washington with a puncher's chance. Washington, Detroit, and Milwaukee. Those are the three on the outside closest to the eight seed right now. Yeah, I mean, you can give Washington a chance if you want. I suppose that's fair.

Just a back cord. I'd give them a chance. Yeah, you've got to give them at least a little bit of a chance. But at the same time, I mean, you could look at Miami and say, oh, well, they have Hassan Whiteside, Drygech, Winslow. They're only one game worse than Washington. But, yeah, I think I would put Washington in the probably out of it category, but they at least have a little bit of a chance.

All right, Kev. Well, if we're looking at the Western Conference, who are we kicking out of the playoffs already? Do the Pelicans have a chance? What say you? So I'd say Dallas, definitely out, Phoenix out. New Orleans and Minnesota. They have a lot of talent on their team,

but chances are things aren't looking too good for them. Really, I'd say it's similar to the East Chris where Portland's still in the conversation. The Lakers are still in it. Denver's got enough talent to stay competitive. Sacramento, I don't love their chances, but they do have boogie. I don't want to say no completely to New Orleans and Minnesota yet just because of the amount of talent they have on their teams. But just with their slow starts, they really get to dig out of a big hole. Okay, so the only ones we're saying in the NBA that have no chance at the playoffs right now are Phoenix, Dallas, Miami, Orlando, Brooklyn, Philly.

We're on the same page? Or you kicked out the Wizards, too. That's kind of, I mean, wizards are borderline. I'd say the ones that are definitely out are Brooklyn, Philly, Phoenix, Dallas. But that's not really like a hot take at all saying that. You recently wrote about the teams that are better than what their record indicates. Let's touch on those real quick. A lot of people are really high on Utah coming into the season, and so it seems that they went through injuries earlier in the year. They had to play without Gordon Hayward.

They had to play without George Hill. But you're starting to like them a lot and think that their record is not an indicator of what level of team they are. Yeah. So on Monday, we published an article on the ringer.com about ball don't lie, but wins and losses do. And the jazz at the time were 9 and 8. Now they're 10 and 8. But that's not really indicative of how great they've been as a team. They have the fifth best net rating in the NBA.

They have the second best defensive rating. They've done this despite the fact that they had injuries to Gordon Hayward and George Hill to start the season. Hayward missed six games of the broken finger. Derek Favors is out. So they've had injuries. And despite that, they've still had a really good numbers, right? It just hasn't shown up in the wins column because the amount of injuries they've had. I just love their mix of talent on their team.

I think they have more versatility than maybe most teams in the league. They're built to win. They're built to defeat different types of teams. And I think we'll see over the course of the season that they're actually probably the fourth or fifth best team in the West and not the seventh, eighth, eighth, like I said, they have been in recent weeks. The other teams that you think their record is not an indicator of what they are. First, let's roll with the Pelicans.

What are we thinking about the Pelicans? So the Pelicans obviously aren't a great team and they're not a true contender by any means, but I think their bad start was largely due to the fact that, you know, Holiday was out. He's their second best player behind Anthony Davis. And now that he's back, he really changes things for them on both ends of the floor. Holiday is just a really steady presence on the offensive end. And defensively, he's a great, great defender at the point of attack. So I don't think they're necessarily a playoff team, but I don't think they're the bottom feeder team

that a lot of people were talking about them as in the beginning of the year. And look, they get to make changes. They need to make additions to their team. but I think they at least have enough talent with Holiday that they'll stay competitive. Is Portland worse than their record? I don't know if they're worse than their record. I'm not sure if they're better either, though, and that's kind of the problem for them. They have a ton of talent on their team, but, man, their defense is really, really atrocious.

I think that's a problem for them when you consider especially all the talent in the West. I think they're a team where they're going to score a lot of points. They're going to have no issue scoring with Damien Liller and C.J. McCollum. But, man, that team has major issues on the defensive end of the floor. All right, Kevin. So you wrote about the teams that, like, if you look at their wins and losses, it's not that great of an indicator of what they are. Let's talk about players.

You and I both were charged with coming up with three guys that if you looked at their numbers, the raw numbers, that you probably wouldn't be able to get. get the whole story on them. We'll do that when we come back. Thanks to Dick's sporting goods, youth sports matter. Student athletes are four times more likely to attend college and are 11% more likely to graduate compared to non-athletes. Physically active kids also have 40% higher test scores and are 50% less absent.

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Go to Vicerland.com to find your channel and check out some free episodes. The brand is strong. All right, Kevin, so you wrote about wins and losses with teams and then you highlighted somebody like the Jazz as being better as their record. What we wanted to do is come up with players that are better than their raw stats. We each came up with three. You want me to start? I'll start.

You go, Chris. All right. The first one is, for me, Patrick Patterson for Toronto. The guy is, you know, if you look at just his number, he averages like a little less than seven points a game, five rebounds, two assists. But like all, like his team just wins when he's out on the court. Like the defensive real plus minus numbers, good. I think he's in the top 60 in the league. You know, offensive rating, defensive rating, the team is a plus eight and a half about when he's on there.

And if you look through like lineups, like two-man lineups, three-man lines, like, Patterson's like in all of these for Toronto. He doesn't get a ton of accolades. But like the guy, I always feel like he's playing smart. I always feel like he's playing hard. He's good when he has to switch on pick and rolls. He's athletic enough. and he is tough as nails. He'll fight with anybody down in the post.

So I think Patterson's one of those guys that, like, you look at him, you look at the numbers, and you go, what's the big deal? He averages like seven points and five rebounds to assist. But he kind of does everything. He plays smart all the time. And like, I don't know. I feel like, you know, we should call this almost like the honor, like the Iguodala Award or something, right?

Because Iguidala, he's averaging like five points of game. or whatever, and then you watch a game like last night, and he just flipped it, flip the game in the third quarter with his tenacity. And so you're never going to get the full story on Igwadala just by looking at his numbers. At least the first one on this count for me is Patrick Patterson for Toronto. I think he is a big reason for their success. And in fact, with Patterson and Lowry on the floor, they're a plus 12 per 100 possessions this year. I think he's a good fit with Toronto, and I don't think the stats tell the whole story.

Who's your first? So I'm going to go with my first as a guy who I think everybody recognizes is having a career year, and that's George Hill from the Utah Jazz. He's averaging 21 points a game, four assists, four rebounds. He's shooting 54% from the floor, 44% from three. So he has great numbers, right? I think anybody will acknowledge that. But, you know, looking at an advanced data point called Offensive Box Score Plus Minus on Basketball Reference. I think that really is a really good, good indicator of offensive success.

And he ranks in the top five of the league amongst guys like Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Jimmy Butler, all these big-name star players that everybody recognizes. And George Hill is right there in the conversation with them, according to offensive box score plus minus. And again, he's a good, good basic stat. but the advanced data is just ridiculous on him. He ranks in the top three on points per possession scored according to Synergy Sports. He ranks in the top percentile of effective field goal percentage. The dude has just been ridiculous through his first 10 games of the season for the Jazz.

And he's a big reason why I think they're ready to kind of actually start winning more than about 50% of their games. George Hill has always been a guy like Patrick Patterson, who's just a steadying presence on both in the to the floor. He's a guy, his teams play well when he's on the floor. But now with Utah, I think he's really elevated his game to the next level. He won't sustain this elite level of play, but he's definitely I think turned into something

at a higher level than when he was in Indiana. Yeah, he has been outstanding this year. And it just speaks to what a tough deal it is because Mike Connolly's having a great season in Memphis too. And over the weekend, Eric Spolster said, if he's not an all-star, it's criminal. But then you look and you go for like

guys like Conley and guys like George Hill, Listen, Chris Paul is going to be in the All-Star game and Russell Westbrook's going to be in the All-Star game and James Harden's going to be there and Steph Curry's going to be there and Damian Lillard's probably going to be there. It's just impossible for these guys. You have guys that are having great seasons, outstanding players that are having big upticks in production

like a Hill or like a Conley and they matter so much to their team and what their team does. And yet they may just, they're just up against it when it comes to like All-Star births. I wonder what the All-Star team would look like if positions didn't matter. If really just the best players went in, would we see a team with like seven point cards on it? In the West, it's possible. The West is late.

Definitely is. You know what I mean? When you got guys like George Hill having that kind of a season, I mean, that's an All-Star caliber season. It would be hard to argue against it. My second guy, another guy. And mine are all pretty much grinders, right? Guys that are not highly touted, probably not a lot of people on their jerseys, but I think they just help you win.

Todd Gibson is the next one for me. Again, when he's out on the court, they're winning. He's a plus 8.3 in net rating. He's right on the cusp of being the top 30 player and defensive real plus minus. Obviously, his P.E.R. is great. He only averages 12 points a game. But I thought this was super interesting. And a shout out to my buddy Chris Harrington, who writes with a commercial appeal.

He wrote an article about Mike Conley and Markassal, and Zach Lowe had referenced them being like a plus nine or ten, right, when they're out on the court together. And so what Chris did is he went back and he looked at all the combinations, like just two-man lineups in the league and who are the best. And how about this? You were going to, if you pull this stat, because I did, it is all like these. superstar-laden teams, right? So every combination is going to be the Warriors, the Cavs, or the Clippers, right? The best two-man combination in the league that has played over 400 minutes, if we put that as a parameter, so they've played a lot of minutes together.

The best two-man tandem in the league that has played over 400 minutes that is not either part of the Warriors, the Cavs, or the Clippers. is Jimmy Butler and Todd Gibson. They are a plus 10 on average per 100 possessions. I thought that was incredible, right? Because it's not like the Bulls have some kind of amazing record. But that was of a two-man lineup that has played over 400 minutes. That's the best one that's not on one of those great teams. And Butler gets his accolades.

I don't think Todd does. and so Todd Gibson's my second that I don't think raw stats necessarily tell the story of how much he helps you winning. Your next one. My second guy is on a team who is on a complete non-winning team

and that's for Sean Holmes. He's averaging only seven points and four rebounds and only 16 minutes per game for the Sixers. So because of those stats, he must be a D-League-worthy player, right? Because he plays for the 70-sixers of all teams. But that's, not necessarily true. I think Holmes is one of the hidden treasures on the Sixers' young talented

roster, but he's just buried behind Joelle and Bede, Okafor, Sarich, Ilyossova, but Holmes is actually very effective when he does play. He's a good second round pick. He's efficient. He has an effective field goal percentage of 61, which is just awesome. He's a solid rebounder with a defensive rebounding percentage above 20. So I think perhaps in a different situation, or if the Sixers were to trade Okafore and or Nerlands-Noelle. Holmes is a guy who I think would actually receive opportunity. And the funny thing is with the Sixers is I looked at stats on NBA.com. And Embed and Holmes have only been in the court together once and it wasn't even for a full minute. And that's a theoretical front court that I would actually like to see because Embed

and Holmes can both space the floor. They can both rim run. They can both rebound. I think those two would be a good theoretical mix, and we just haven't seen it because of the log jam in the front court for the Sixers. But I like Holmes a lot. And if I were them, he's a guy that I wouldn't mind being overlooked because he's someone I think I'd want to hang on to as maybe my fourth big in the rotation once, you know, you actually are trying to really win games. Good grief. I almost feel like you're schooling with me because like one of the earlier podcasts this year, I said, Rishon Holmes could walk in this studio and I wouldn't know who he was. And immediately, you know, people on Twitter were like,

you host a national podcast and you don't even know who Rishon Holmes is. I'm like, oh, get out of here. Sean's home then played a game that there was a friggin' camera at. Unless you just happen to be watching League Pass and the time that he was on the court. I'm sorry. I'm not, I'm unfamiliar with the work of Rishon Holmes. So here I got to listen to you on the Sixers. Two-minute diatribe about how great Rishon Holmes.

Is everybody just effing? me with this guy like seriously okay I love we want you to watch him we want you to watch them we want you to watch them Chris enough with Rasha I'm done I'm done with Roshan Holmes all right my third one is a guy

I got to see in person last night and he's a guy that I people feel like people focus on what he doesn't do which is shoot threes rather than everything he does do and that's Michael Kid Gilchrist I love him oh yeah and I know he's you know if you take him two in the draft.

I suppose you think he's going to be a superstar. He would have been a good one for your whole, you remember your article you wrote a couple weeks ago about Justice Winslow. Like he was like kind of the original Winslow, right? Yeah, he was. If he just fixed his shot, good grief, this guy could be ridiculous. But again, a good defensive real plus minus guy. He's got a terrible P.E.R.

The numbers don't jump out on page. But every time I watch him, I, I never think what the hell is he doing or what kind of shot is that? Like I almost never feel that way about him. Like I think he is, he's never going to be like some kind of big superstar, but he's going to help teams win for a long, long time in the NBA and be a great role player. And so he doesn't shoot threes, but man, he fights and he plays every possession hard. and they really, I mean, you know what, it's funny because I looked for some things to validate it.

You know, he's got, obviously, they're a winning team with him out on the court, and the defensive real plus minus numbers are good. And just watching with my own eyes, I always feel like he's playing hard, and he's a guy that I want, especially like big playoff games. I feel like he's going to come up with a big rebound or he's going to come up with a big putback or whatever it may be. I just like the guy. But it's funny, you know, when I looked up, like, a lot of those, like, numbers and lineups, etc.

Of course, he's in them as successful. But you know who would just littered the Hornets, the Hornets numbers? Was Cody Zeller. Like, it was almost like I was looking to confirm, much like I did with Todd, that Kid Gilchrist is a big difference, you know? But damn, man, Cody, like almost all their lineup combinations, that include like, you know, Kemba and Kid Gilchrist or Kemba and Batum. When you slide Zeller in there, it's like, the numbers go through the roof. I was like, well, damn, man, maybe I should use Cody Zeller.

So I'll give him a shout out too. I was doing Kid Gilchrist, and then what I found was like maybe the biggest difference with the group of guys to Hornetav is Cody Zeller, who had missed some games recently. And I don't think anybody necessarily thinks about him. but just according to the numbers early in the season, he is extremely important to what they're doing, and they've been winning big with him out on the court. You mentioned earlier that you like grinders.

Both of those guys are definitely grinders. And in some ways with them, it's like, who cares about their offensive numbers? Just because they do so many little things on the floor that I think often go unnoticed. Yep. All right. So I got Patterson, Todd, and Michael Kid Gilchrist.

Those are my three guys. Who's your third one? So my first two are for George Hill and Rashon Holmes. My third is Otto Porter from the Washington Wizards. He's a guy who's gotten notably better each season of his career. Just looking at his basic stat line, his points per game each season have gone from two to six to 12 into almost 15 this season. That's a very steady progression.

But he's also gotten more efficient each year. And this season, according to Synergy Sports, he's scoring 1.1 points. per possession, which ranks 13th in the NBA. To put that into perspective, he's around what guys like Chris Stapp, Porzinius, and J.J. Reddick do. Of course, they're different players in different roles, different responsibilities. But I think Otto Porter is one of the more underrated guys in the league, and he's kind of hidden on the Wizards.

And I think his efficiency speaks to his improvement playing within his role. He's a great shooter, a great cutter. He hasn't developed as a ball handler in a way that I think maybe the Wizards hoped. But he has grown within his role. And we talked about the Wizards earlier. I think he's one of those guys where if he makes a little bit more of a leap than he already has this season, maybe we are talking about them as a seven or eight seat in the East because they do have talent on their team. And Otto Porter is one of the bright spots that I think often gets overlooked with so much focus on Bradley Bill and John Wall.

And then you do wonder, right, like what kind of fit that is all three of them together, you know? those three guys. I mean, because I think Porter, Porter reminds me of a kind of guy that could be outstanding on a really good team. Like,

maybe a little, maybe doing a little less than what he's necessarily doing right now or possibly maybe doing more, right? Maybe he would even be better if he wasn't playing with two guys that,

you know, like, that have such a dynamic back court. in Wall and deal. I think that's a good point, Chris. I wonder, I mean, there's guys like that all across the league that, you know, if they get the right opportunity, they suddenly just explode. And maybe Auto Porter is that guy.

Maybe playing without the ball in his hands all these years has kind of stunted his ability to actually be effective with the ball in his hand. So it's hard to say. Yeah, if I were a team, I don't know, right? Because like sometimes, right, are you, like, it's not like Sergei Baca. exploding in Orlando, right? So is it because you played with Westbrook and Durant? So is Porter's success because, in some ways,

he's playing with Wall and Beal? Or is it stunted? And he could be even better if he wasn't playing with Wall and Beal. I'm just, I don't know yet. I don't know. It's a tough issue, I think, for teams. But for guys like that, if they're a cost-effective risk, it's definitely a risk worth taking for guys like that.

All right. Let's get to our quick hits. Last thing of the podcast today, Kevin O'Connor. Mark Cuban says the Mavs won't tank implying this year's draft is not worth it. Maybe not worth tanking. We talked last week on our Tuesday podcast, and you said this draft is worth tanking for. So where are we at? Is Cuban just wrong?

I think his comments might have been, in my opinion, at least the way I read it. I think he was kind of saying that it's not worth it right now. I think because there's not a guy where, you know, I think we like we talked about, there's not that LeBron James where you're in a, you want to tank for that guy. There's not that prize yet. And I think there's a lot of talent in the draft where you can get a great player with the eighth pick, potentially. So I don't know if that's what he's saying, but possibly that could be his perspective where, you know,

It's not necessary to tank to get a shot at a great player. But at the same time, he did say earlier in the week that maybe around game 70 or 75, they'd look at the situation and consider tanking. And that's kind of the thing with this year is there's not a lot of super horrible teams, right? So I think if they did want a tank, they don't necessarily have to start now. They don't have to tank to get 10 wins. They can tank and aim for 20 wins and still get a top shot at getting the top pick in a draft. I don't know if that's what he's saying,

but I would think that might be part of what he's saying behind that you don't have to tank in this draft. But I think they should tank at some point because regardless of the amount of talent in the draft, you still want to have one of the top picks so you get your choice of a guy. All right, Kevin, famously, years ago, there was a trade that was possibly going to go down

between the warriors and the timber wolves. and people thought that at the time the Warriors were goofy for not getting rid of Clay Thompson and trading him for Kevin Love. Kevin Love is having maybe the best year of his career who's averaging 22 and 11 on an awesome team. He's shooting 45% from the field, 43% from 3, 87% from the line. If Cleveland called Golden State today and said,

Love for Thompson straight up, who says no? I think both teams. would be happy with what they have. I don't know if either team would say yes to that because you're right. Kevin Love's having a career year with Cleveland. They've figured out, I think, how to perfectly

integrate him. And the big reason for that, in my opinion at least, is LeBron James taking a little bit less of a scoring role and a much bigger facilitating role on the team. And that's really I think empowered Kevin Love to take the extra three shots a game or whatever it is he's taking compared to

the last two seasons. And man, He's just been unbelievable, super efficient. He's doing all the things he did in Minnesota, and in many ways he's doing it better. We're scrapping the league. I'm getting a franchise. You're getting a franchise. But you get, and you can either have Love or Clay Thompson. And we're starting to, we're starting the team next year.

I think I'd lean towards Clay. That's close, but I just think Clay, is just an unstoppable, ridiculous, incredible shooter. Granted right now he's shooting only like 36% from three, but who cares? It's a small sample size. What he really is is a deadly 42% shooter from three who can knock down shots at any time and get hot.

And he's a great defender on top of that. I'd lean towards Clay. How about you, Chris? I really like the double-digit rebounds, too. I mean, you know, I think, right now that it is more, it's probably more scarce to get a guy like Clay.

You look around the league, there ain't a bunch of great shooting guards. You know? This is not. Yeah, you're right. If we're racking off the best shooting guards, right? Clearly, because I mean, there's a bunch of great wings if you want to like throw wings, because

that's all Bron and Kauai and on and on. But if you're just, and there, and then a lot of the point guards are guys like really score. Like, that used to be the shooting guards, right, that we're scoring. So it's like Damian Lillard and Steph Curry and Russell Westbrook, but we're just talking like two guards, like obviously James Harden. But James Hardin's now like praying point guard.

I mean, I don't know. I think maybe Thompson is a little more scarce slash harder to match up with if I'm starting a team. And he is a better defender, right? Probably better two-way player than love is. But I am higher on love than a lot of people. I love. I love love.

I mean, it's hard not to love the things he does. He's a great player. He's a former superstar. He still is a superstar. He just doesn't get the same amount of, I guess, accolades that he did before because the numbers aren't as significant. But man, like, look, if you were starting a team tomorrow, I don't think you could go wrong with either of those guys.

And it's all a matter of, as you were kind of saying, it depends on how you want to build your team and how you want to focus around one of those two star players. But neither of those guys are in that class that, like, they're like, like, it would, like, If they're the best guy on your team, you can still be shitty. Right? There's guys throughout the lead. Seriously. I mean, well, we've seen it, right?

Love was putting up crazy numbers. His team sucked. I think Clay could be one of those guys, too. He could be your best player and be on a bad team. There's still just a very select few of guys. Like, it's hard to envision LeBron and Kauai and Chris Paul, etc. Like being, I'm talking like on really bad. teams. So I do think that both of those guys, they're not at the level that their sheer star

power could get you at least maybe like 30 wins. They could be on really bad teams. So they're not to that level necessarily. I don't think either of them are. But it's a debate. I think it's certainly a debate. Like if somebody told me they would, if they like stuck their flag in the ground for love over Thompson, I wouldn't fight them over. I wouldn't think they're stupid. I think, you know, this is kind of an aside, but what you're saying about these guys being the best player on their team and still having shitty teams, I think that speaks to just how amazing LeBron James was for the Cavaliers and his first stint with them. I mean, the talent on those teams on Cleveland, the team that went to the finals against the Spurs, they really weren't that good of a team outside of LeBron. How about that finals team? He went two years ago against the Warriors.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was absurd. The guys he had It was like him and Matthew Dahlavadova And like people are having debates Like they've got to play Richard Jefferson I'm like Jesus

If the debate He's the debate is they got to play Richard Jefferson We got to rob it Who's the one of those having Boobie Gibson I think Yeah right You need a rollout Big time role player on that

You said you don't care about shoes And then famously said You wear vans all the time Kevin O'Connor, have you ever owned a jersey? Yeah, I've owned a jersey. I used to own an Aryan Foster jersey, and he's retired now. Own a Tom Brady jersey. It's all old now.

It's not a real jersey. It's one of those fake ones you buy for what, like $30, not the $250 or overpriced NFL store ones. But yes, I have owned a jersey, Chris. Not many of them in my life. I've never been much of a jersey wear. I am fascinated by Aryan. by Aryan Foster. Why

Aaron Foster? I just love Aaron Foster's game. I love his perspective on life. I just think Aaron Foster really in many ways was maybe the best back in the NFL playing on one of the worst teams in the Texans

remind me in some ways in the early 2000s. Corey Dillon and the Bengals just had some ridiculous seasons for the Bengals. But he was just buried on a winner, on a losing team. And it wasn't until he got to New England that he was So it's an

Arian Foster Texans jersey Yeah, yep It's true Digg that Aaron Foster I'm a big Aryan Foster fan still in I've got like a million jerseys by the way Wow

I got a closet full Yes I've got What's your favorite one? I'm the guy that buys them on eBay Okay What's your favorite one? I think I've got a I've got like an 87, I think it is, all-star, one of those Mitchell and Ness, all-star Larry Burns.

I loved those uniforms. Okay. I've got a Barry Sanders, Oklahoma State. I love that one. Oh, boy, that's a good one. I've got an Earl Campbell, Texas. I've got, but, I mean, listen, my favorite by far right now is I've got to salute the troops, Ezekiel Elliott. I have not washed it in eight weeks.

True story. Did this just turn into the NFL show? I wear it every Sunday. I know. Well, you just ask me what jerseys I got. I've got a penny hardaway magic jersey. There, there you go. There's the NBA show for you.

All right. Kevin, this is really not NBA. It is NBA related. Isaiah Thomas tweeted out that he got a text. And then he actually expounded on this. He got a text from Alan Iverson, the answer himself. And it said, keep doing your thing. I'm watching, right?

Kevin, if you could get a text from anyone saying, keep doing your thing, I'm watching, or reading, or listening, whatever it may be, who do you want that text to be from? Oh, man. Chris, I wish you were asking this question ahead of time, so I had time. And if you say Bill Simmons, I'm kicking your ass. Um Oh man

This is hard to say man Um You know Because by the way Bill Simmons ain't listening to this Okay Let's get that straight You know

I think I think in some ways I you know I think Man this is hard Chris You got me This is really hard I think in some ways

What I would want is someone who's like powerful in the NBA, a guy like Adam Silver to recognize, you know, the good stuff we're doing here at the ringer, not just me, but, you know, everybody here. I think that would be a really cool thing to have Adam Silver, the commissioner of the league we're writing about say, hey, you guys are doing good things there.

So I'll go with Adam Silver. You want the text to be from Adam Silver. Keep doing your thing. I'm watching. Sure. That's my answer within the moment with a gun to my head. But right now, Adam Silver, there's my answer.

I'll get back to you maybe next week with a really good answer. No, I think your answer is very good. It's a very good answer, Kevin. All right, that's going to do it for another edition of the NBA show. We'll catch up with you next week, Kev. Thanks, brother. Thanks for having me, Chris. If you like what we're doing, make sure you take a little lecture time.

Give us a rating and review on iTunes to combat the haters. Thanks for listening to another edition, and we'll talk to you on Thursday. Thanks again to Vice. For bringing today's podcast, Late Night TV just got darker. Deezis Nice and the Kid Miro have landed their own late night TV show on Vicerland, the new TV channel from Vice. Week nights at 11 p.m. No A-list celebrity selling their movies, no scripted jokes, no ban, just two guys from the Bronx giving you their takes on sports, culture, politics, entertainment, and other subjects they don't really know anything about. Watch Deezis and Miro on TV on Viseland every Monday through Thursday at 11 p.m.

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