The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 48: Quarterly Awards With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: December 6, 2016

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor celebrate the first quarter of the NBA season by handing out awards, including MVP (17:00), then they talk Joel Embiid's Rookie of the Year bid (25:00), Gregg Popovich vs. Quin Snyder for Coach of the Year (28:00), the plethora of Most Improved options (34:00), and whether anyone can top Klay Thompson's 60-point explosion (40:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon, joining me as he does every Tuesday is Kevin O'Connor, calmness for The Ringer. What's up, Kev? Chris, Clay Thompson scored 60 last night, man. Steve Kerr, making me stay up late to watch Kevon Looney and whoever he had in the game that was not Clay Thompson after he got to 60th point. I'm very resentful of Steve Kerr. I think as many NBA fans probably are this morning. I really wanted to see him go for 70 at least. Yeah, I did too, but at the same time, I don't want to be that guy, but I get it. I mean, they have a busy schedule coming up. You wouldn't want to compromise that, the health of one of your best players, one of your four best players. But yeah, yes, it would have been nice to see that. However, look, this team, we talked about this a couple weeks ago, Chris, they're going to have nights like this where they score a ton of points.

And eventually they're going to have a night where they score a lot of points and it's actually a close game. So I think there will be a time sometime this year where we see a guy make a run at 70 or maybe Kobe's 81. I'm starting to think that maybe they're paying attention to what you're saying and writing, Kevin, because you came on the podcast a couple weeks ago and said, we haven't seen the 130, 140 point outbursts and like the next night they did it. And then yesterday you write this long article about like, hey, hold the phone. It's not necessarily predetermined that it's going to be the Cavs and the Warriors. And so they immediately go out and just beat the crap out of somebody on national television.

Yeah, I mean, that wasn't necessarily saying that they're not going to win because I still think in my, I mean, there's a clear favor, I think, for me. But the middle class is looking pretty good. I think that they can at least make it a little harder on them, perhaps. Well, even last year. I mean, I think a lot of people would, you know, it's so funny because the Warriors dropped that 3-1 lead and it became a meme and it became a joke. still remains, like even if you're watching, like, college football game day, there's, like, still a sign every week that says the Warriors blew a 3-1 league. That being said, everybody forgot that Oklahoma City had them dead to rights.

It's only, I kind of feel like Oklahoma City totally got off the hook last year. Yeah, that is a little bit weird when you think about it. I wonder, I wonder if that would be more of a conversation if Golden State had won and Kevin Durant, let's just say, had stayed in Oklahoma City. Would they be kind of the better people's joke this season? I don't know. But, yeah, they blew it the same way Golden State did. That Clay Thompson stuff last night, when he gets in, I mean, 40 in the first half,

and then I saw Tom Haberstro say he went back and watched the tape this morning. He dribbled the ball 11 times. It's unbelievable. What is that? 11 times. What kind of shot? That speaks to what kind of shots. A, your ability to get a shot off fast.

B, the kind of shots that he gets. No, you're right. I bet if you have, they should do that analysis on like one of Kobe's guy. It would be like 555,000 ribbles. No, you're right. And I think that speaks to how much these guys enhance each other's game because I think Tom's had eight or nine layups last night. And a lot of them were just open layups.

And that was coming off simple screen actions that perhaps, you know, they would have been open shots for him this year. But this year they are wide open because Durant is pulling that much more gravity off the floor. I don't know how you defend that team when they're clicking on all cylinder. When you talk about the middle class and the teams that are not considered the elite ones, who are the ones that stand out to you the most that you think could be dangerous? And dangerous meaning maybe they're not the team that knocks off a calves or warriors,

but a team that takes them to the brink. Yeah, so the two teams we gave as an example in that were the Bucks and the Celtics. And we talked about a couple other teams too, but we'll focus on the Bucks. with Yonis Antoninacompo, obviously they have one of the rising young players in the game. In the article, it was basically just about how these teams might not be contenders for the finals. But that doesn't mean there isn't beauty to appreciate in this season. There are a lot of great storylines. There are a lot of great rising young players.

Russell Westbrook's averaging a triple double. There's a lot of interesting things happening in the NBA. And that's largely because the middle class is so strong. And one of those teams is the Bucks. And to answer your question, I think they're a team that can give teams trouble because they're so long and they're so skilled. I think Mike Dan and Tony said in an interview earlier this year that he'd rather people not call it small ball.

He'd rather it be called skill ball because that's the point of putting your smaller players on the floor because they tend to be more skilled shooting players. but the Bucks are able to do it with tall lineups because Anton Acoompo can play point guard and they can surround him with whatever types of different players they want and I still don't think they're at the level where they can be with Middleton out but that team with their skilled size

I think they can give teams trouble I think we've seen them have good tough games against Golden State the past two seasons and we've seen them beat Cleveland this year they're a team that look if they seek into the playoffs maybe they upset somebody in the East, maybe they upset Toronto or whoever, right? Maybe they make it hard for Cleveland and the East and Cumberance finals. Who knows? But I think they're one of those teams that they're built, not this year to be real contenders,

but at least to be a nagging team for whoever it might be that's actually a contender. Well, and it's interesting because they're not going to be like a 50 or 55 win team. But just because of what you said, they just happen to have the goods to be bad matchups for the best team. Right? They may not be like night in night out. You're not going to watch them and and be like, wow, that team's devastating. But they're just, they've just got matchup problems for who happen to be the best teams in the league right now. And I do wonder, right, when you look around how, you know, because there's some that are almost like likes, like those teams that can really play small and play them with smaller slash bigger guys, as you say, for lack of a better way of saying it. On the other hand, you know, you look. look at a team like, say, like Utah, and they're going to play them radically different, right? They're going to try to drag that game down into the mud and beat them, whether it's the Warriors or whether it's the Cavs or whoever it may be, and so maybe they have the goods to really slow a team down. So it's almost like maybe these teams are not necessarily elite-level teams, but we've got to keep

our eye out for ones that would happen to be bad matchups for the best teams. It's funny you mentioned Utah, Chris, because I think they're another one of those teams where, A, I think they're way better than people think they are. And B, with them, I think, yeah, you're right, they can drag you down into the mud if you want to, but they can also spread the floor. They have skilled forwards that can space the floor and make plays. Trey Liles and Boris Diaf. They can play different styles depending on who they have in their lineup.

Right now, Derek favors is out. So they're not able to play with their Twin Tower Big Men next to Gobert. But yeah, they're a team that they can play different styles depending on the opponent depending on what type of style they want to play. I mentioned the Celtics earlier. They're another team like that. They have Al Horford, who I think has just been tremendous for him in the games he's played.

He's a big man who can score from all levels of the floor. He can pop. He can drive off the pop. He can roll to the rim. He's such a skilled player, especially when paired with Isaiah Thomas in the pick and roll. So yeah, those two teams, you know, in their respective conferences, they might not be real contenders,

but I think they're in that high middle class tier where look they're going to give teams trouble and they're fun that's really that was really the main message of the article is that there's just a lot of good teams in the league this year and I think we're seeing that last week with a lot of the upsets that we had what do you make of like all right so since you brought up the Celtics you brought up Horford right they took they took the rockets to the brink last night and Horford missed the game winner right so yeah the idea that you do get in those kind of games.

You do get in those kind of wars. And like last night it was Horford who got the call, but that the Celtics don't have the guy that are just going to, you know, when the games on the line, when the rockets are throwing it to Harden and he's either going to make a player create, that you look around to the Celtics and best option is probably, you know, Isaiah Thomas trying to do something off the bounce or in last night's case, Horford. Horford, I mean, obviously, I think probably eight times out of ten, he makes that shot,

but he missed it last night. But the idea that they don't have a go-to guy. Yeah, I mean, that's part of it. I think Isaiah Thomas, you know, he's been terrific in fourth quarters for them. He just goes off in second half of games. But look, he can't do it all by himself. And I think that's kind of the issue where Horford isn't the type of guy you necessarily funnel the ball to and tell him to go to work and get a bucket. Isaiah Thomas is that guy for them.

but yeah we've seen it in the playoffs the past two years of him we're seeing it again this year he can't always be the guy that does by himself just because when when the Celtics do feed him the ball the way defense to defend him they're hedging on picket rolls they're really trying to make anybody else beat them besides IT

so that's what they need and I guess that's what you could say Utah needs and a lot of other teams need too is they need a guy one of the top 15 players in the game one of the few players who can actually be a go-to score and that's what separates the top teams from the middle class. You spoke on, and you wrote about this, a rising

middle class, and I think going in, when all the free agency took place and Duran ended up with Golden State, there was a big topic of, you know, is this good or bad for the NBA that a team is going to put together this dominant level team? And I must tell you that I was sitting

there watching last night, and of course the game was a bloodbath, but you've got this show going on with Clay Dropping 60. and in between, you know, I know the Warriors and the Cavs are big time, big time prohibitive favorites in their conferences, but just at least, you know, a quarter of the way into the season, I think my initial reaction was this is, I don't like this, and this is not good, and I don't want a team being a huge favorite every night and the whole season being predetermined. But I must tell you, a quarter of the way through the season, it has, I think I'd change my opinion. I don't think it's bad at all.

Yeah, I'm with you, Chris. When Kevin Durant first signed, my first reaction was, well, this sucks. And my second reaction was, well, how much better is Durant going to be? And seeing it now, it's insane how much better he is in terms of efficiency numbers. But it's also insane just seeing how much those guys compliment each other. And yeah, for me, like you, it's really, really fun. And I think when that first happens, a lot of people were just in shock by it. But nothing's really changed in the terms of the fact that there's really four or five teams that legitimately have a shot of winning the title.

And that's no different than it was in past years. There's always the super elite teams that are most likely going to be in the finals or at least most likely going to win the finals. It's very rare. I think we see incredible upsets in the playoffs that really not. knock out all the top teams. So nothing's changed there. I think, I think, you know, what really has changed is the middle class is stronger. On Sunday, when I published the article, there were 22 teams with a net rating between

5 and minus 5 compared to an average of roughly 17 over the past five seasons. So that's a lot more teams packed into the middle with closer to average net ratings. So the middle class is stronger. teams aren't really tanking as much at the bottom, but the top hasn't changed quite that much. But I think the league has been very healthy this year, and I'm really loving watching it. Well, when you're flipping around on League Pass last night,

it's great because, as you say, you got a lot of those middle-tier teams going up against each other, and it makes for these highly competitive games. And then on the other hand, you've got these super-dominate teams. I just juxtapose that from, like, watching the NFL. And, okay, so there is no clear, clear favorite, right,

when you're watching the NFL. There is no team that it's, like, wow, could they lose this week? I mean, the Cowboys have the best record, but they're not like some kind of, it's not like they're the Cowboys with Aitman Smith and Irvin. And I'm a cowboy fan, right? But I mean, I'm well aware of what they are. There's flaws to that team when Kirk Cousins can throw for 500 yards.

It's enough with that the NFL. I just say that to say, you know, in the NFL, I almost think it would be great if there was a team that you just felt like nobody could beat. It piques interest. And so I don't mind there being a couple of teams that, like, Like every night, it's like it would be a huge story if the Warriors lose, like at any given time. And then when we get to the playoffs, it's all going to be like, could somebody knock them off or at least take them to the wall? Exactly, Chris.

It reminds me of the 07 Patriots when they went 18-0. Yeah. Everybody was rooting against them in the Super Bowl and they lost. And for fans who weren't Patriots fans, it was incredible. It was just unbelievable. And very similar to Warriors blowing their 3-1 lead last year. But if it were to happen this year with this team with Kevin Durant, I think the reaction would be even more insane on NBA Twitter and around the globe.

I think so too. All right. So as I said, we are about 20 games into the season for most every team around the league. That would signify the exact quarter way point of the season. So we are going to do this throughout the season. We're going to give our quarter season awards. We're going to pick all of the awards right now, one-fourth of the way through the season. We'll do it again halfway through the season.

again three-fourths away through the season. So we'll do it at 20, 40, 60 games, and then obviously after the 82 is completed. So we will give you our quarter season awards when we come back. Ringer NBA show is brought to you by MeUndy's. Picture a world we're putting on a new pair of underwear isn't just fresh. You're stepping into a better day. Think about it.

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to find your channel and check out some free episodes. The brand is strong. All right, Kevin, I said we're going to give our quarter season awards. In fact, let's just start with the MVP, right? Because that's the biggest award. And last week, we got into a conversation

about the triple doubles that that Westbrook's putting up, right? And he's averaging 31, 11, and 11 a game on 43% from the field, 33% from 3. And he had another triple double last night, by the way. Okay. So you remember our conversation we were saying, like, it's always somebody from an awesome team.

Well, I went back and looked because we were trying to do it off the cuff. The MVP, check this out, has been from a one seed or a two seed every year, all but twice since 1985. Since 1985. In 1999, Carl Malone was a three-seed, but they were tied for the best record.

Right? So they're tied for the best record. So that's a weird, that's not a three-three seed. Yeah. Okay, and then 1988, which was Jordan. The Bulls were a three-seed. He averaged 35 points a game, 5.5 rebounds, 6 assists,

three steals. He was defensive player of the year and shot 54% from the field. And then I went back and looked. The only team, at least the last one, there's like an old, like, I think Bob Pettit or something like that from forever ago. Things that there are not even like videos of.

But Kareem, in 75, 76, the Lakers were 40 and 42. And they didn't make the playoffs. That's the last guy that didn't make the playoffs. Now, I think it's fair to say, Oklahoma City's going to make the playoffs, but they're probably not going to be a, I mean, you think they're going to win 50? Probably not 50, right? It'd be, I don't know, it'd be close. I don't think they'll

win 50, but we'll see. They're the five seed, though, right now. And I do think if you're the five seed and he's doing something this historic, like this is beyond the pale, right, the averaging a triple double, I think it would buck history, you know, and he wouldn't have to necessarily, if you can average a triple double, I don't think you would. have to be on a one or a two seed. What say you? So Westbrook is your MVP. You'd be voting for Westbrook?

Right now. Okay. I would vote for James Hardin. And I know it would be hard to go against Westbrook, but my thing is, it's like there's seven or eight legitimate candidates right now, and it's really, really hard to select just one. But with James Hardin, with what he's doing, first of all, he's scoring super efficiently at taking a high volume of shots he's been a really really efficient score and then

he's also averaging over 11 assists per game and he's just been an incredible playmaker for the Rockets he he is he is their team on the offensive end of the floor with without him I mean he he is the embodiment of the most valuable player without him there nothing just like Oklahoma City is nothing without Westbrook but I think Houston I think he makes them a better overall team just because of his efficiency and his high-level decision-making. Westbrook is tremendous, and it's not necessarily knocking against him. I know a lot of people often do knock his decision-making. But for me, the difference is the efficiency.

And Kevin Durant should be in that conversation as well. Hold on, now. Hold on. Your argument, does that harden makes them a good – Dude, Oklahoma City loses Westbrook. They win 10 games. Yeah. Yeah, but so does Houston. So does Houston now.

No, they don't win 10. I don't know. They're not that ridiculous. I'll pull up their on off numbers if you want me to, Chris. I think they win 10 games without James Hardin. Okay, okay. I don't think Oklahoma City would win 10 games because I think, first of all, I think both teams would change their systems depending on the town.

If they didn't have Hardin or Westbrook, I think you would see Oklahoma City, Billy Dunnman would actually run his motion offense system. I think you would see some of their young players running that system more. And I think they have players that fit into it But they don't use that system with Westbrook Because he's such a balled on a player And why would you?

Because he's so far and away better than everybody else But with Houston I just for me it's the efficiency That's that's that's the differentiator I just think Well we're talking efficiency then Volume with his efficiency is unreal If you want to talk about efficiency then

Right Then why isn't it Durant Durant's averaging 27, 8 and 5 He's like right at the top in P.E.R. He's shooting 56% from the field and 43% from three at high volume. And he's averaging almost two blocks and one and a half steals a game. Yep. I wrote something a couple weeks ago in one of our King of the Courts on the Ringer,

just about how just insanely efficient he's been. And I don't have the updated numbers right now. But at the time, if you looked at players who were averaging X amount of points, he was the most efficient player who's ever had a season like that. And if he's not right now, he's pretty close. And look, I mean, it's going back to what we said earlier about Golden State, the way these guys compliment each other. But I would have a hard time giving a vote to one of their four best players,

even though I think, look, I think in some ways it depends on your definition of the award. Is it the player who had the best statistical season? Is it the player who was the best on the best team? I think people have different definitions of it depending on what they're looking for Well, I think the definition's been rather standard over the years I mean, I just told you. You're right.

There's only two times. There's only twice since 1985 that a guy hasn't been a one or a two seed and we've got to throw out the Malone one. So really it's 88 Jordan is the only one. Is that right though? Should it be that way? I wonder if we look back

how many winners or how many potential? winners there should have been on like four or five seeds, right? I will be very fascinated to see if this evolves in the same way baseball has, right? In that it used to be years ago that if you didn't, you know, if, if, like I remember Felix Hernandez, right, recently won it because of wins or you see, you know, people bringing up Mike Trow's war or whatever, right? Roger Clemens, 04 or 05, something like that, winning it over Randy Johnson. that year always sticks out to me. Randy Johnson had just an unreal year, but Roger Clements had more wins.

Yeah, and I think, and remember Felix won with way fewer wins than his opponents for the Sye Young a couple years ago. And so I do wonder if, because it has started a little bit, a couple of years ago, Mark Gassol won defensive player in the year simply based on advanced analytics because guys like Zach Lowe and big-time writers

were writing about this and his defensive impact and looking at, they were looking at stats beyond, you know, used to be you would just look, like most of the people that vote would look at block shots and steals and then decide, you know, who they thought the defensive player of the year. Well, I know that sounds crazy, but that's true, right? The raw box score stats. And Marcosol won a defensive player of the year simply based on advanced analytics.

And so it's interesting. I don't know if that will, if that will be the MVP's case in years to come. or if that will remain. I think I'd probably believe the former, which is that they will evolve, and you will see more people paying attention to all the advanced metrics to decide who they think is truly deserving. I don't know.

We'll see. I think this year will show a lot, I think. Well, listen, if it's a team from a one or two seat, it's Durant or, I mean, I suppose, Kauai. Maybe Paul. You can make the argument for Curry, too, though. You know what I mean? there's a lot of guys

All right Rookie of the year I've got Embed Who you got It's in Bid It's not even close Well Jamal Murray's got a check Jamal Murray's had four 20 point games recently

Yeah okay yeah I mean maybe by the end of the year We're talking about Jamal Rari But right now it's It's not even close It's Jojo Jojo's just been ridiculous Really hoping I get to see him in person tonight

They play the Grizzlies in Memphis And I'm hoping he plays I think he's supposed to arrest. I know. I know. Sorry, Chris. I know it's a war. You'll get to see him in the flesh, though, I think. You'll get to see him. You're seeing a potential hall of favor.

Well, I told you. We did a podcast earlier. I saw him in person earlier this year and I went on the podcast the next day and said, this guy, like, good grief. It is something to behold. I've never seen a guy that big move like that. Honestly. I've never seen that. Remember this summer when

him and his trainer, Drew Hanlon, are posting all those workout clips. And a lot of the haters on Twitter were like, oh, just doing this in an open gym against a 5'10 guy. Well, yeah, now he's doing it in an NBA game against NBA level players. And, yeah, it's pretty fun to watch. The other thing I love about him so much is I don't know if people are aware of this in the greater public, but he comments all the time like on people's Instagram posts.

And people go and find them and then they post them on Twitter. and I swear at least twice a week, I laugh hysterically. Like there was a, there's a famous one a couple of weeks ago where a girl in the, there's this beautiful blonde in the crowd holding up a sign for Chandler Parsons that says, you know, Chandler, check your DMs. And like, Joel M. B. like, just comments on it. And he's like, you better have smashed, bro. Like, what?

Then, how about last night? He, uh, Dario Sarich, somebody puts up a video of Dario Sarich making a move on somebody. and right underneath the video it says Joel Embed and he like commented cooked his ass I mean like that was against that was the one against Jonas Derepco he's like a kid man

he's like a teenager seriously it's like a it's like a teenager and he's like legit hysterical he's another one of those players like we were talking about earlier there's a lot of fun stories in the league this year Chris and Mbid on the Sixers is one of them he is goofy as all good

but I laugh at him. Coach of the year, I say Popovich right now. Okay. If I was giving out the award, they're 12 and O on the road so far this year. And this is life without Tim Duncan. And I think it is instruct, go pull up their roster. And I know everybody's aware of Kauai and Pal and Lamarcus Aldridge. But like, you look at their bench and look at the guys that play for them on a regular basis.

and I think he's done at least through 20 games a masterful job, Popovich. And I think this is one of those where people always kind of wondered, you know, what's life like Duncan going to be like. And there's clearly this total Spurs culture that has been developed. I did not think the Powell Aldridge thing was going to work out really well. But, you know, listen, they're 17 and 4 or whatever it is early in the season, 12 and 0 on the road. and I'd give it to Popovich right now.

So we mentioned earlier about how most valuable player usually goes to the best teams. Coach of the year also tends to do that. But my pick for Coach of the Year is from 13 and 19, Quinn Snyder of the Utah Jazz. For me, I just think every quality that Snyder's kind of learned throughout his basketball life is observable with the jazz

from his time as a player at Duke to coaching the Spurs D-League team. to learning under Messinae at CSK Moscow. His ear with the Hawks, learning from Mike Budenholzer. Snyder has just a wealth of experience, making him a diversified season coach. And we're seeing that within his roster, because his roster kind of mirrors his unique skill set

with a bunch of players who can play different roles and situations and positions. And Snyder, I think, with his experience, just maximizes the players on that roster. And that comes despite injuries to Haward to Hill, favors and so on. They have a top eight offense and a top five defense despite so many injuries early in the season. I just think a lot of the credit should be given to Snyder. I think he's been outstanding. And I think by the end of the season, I think we'll be talking about the

jazz as a pseudo-contender, not quite a real contender, but the next little down. I just love what he's done. And I love their roster. And I think that the best is yet to come for them. I think people that are big-time NBA fans, people that are really paying attention, feel the same what you do. If you go look at their numbers, their record is clearly and you wrote about this last week, their record is clearly not indicative of what level of team they are. They are top

10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency, which is that is something that is typically reserved for extremely good teams. They are eighth offensive and fifth defensive and that's with the injuries that they've been through. Yep, exactly.

I think Snyder has just been really, really, really, really good for them and look I think it'd be unfair if a coach like him didn't garner votes just because of the team's record like let's just stay let's say they're only a 46 win team or something like that

I think it would be unfair if people just look at the wins column and decide that the coach should or shouldn't win because you can make you can make an equally good argument for someone like Luke Walton and the way he's installed his system with the Lakers' team should he win the award this year or should he win the award after they trade for a star player and they're a 65 win team. In my opinion, I think the guy should win it

the year they're laying the foundation and the players are really, really progressing. But again, it's all about the definition of the award. Let me place devil's advocate with you for a minute, okay? After their off-season moves and everything they did, everybody loved the jazz. Everybody was high on the jazz. So now we're going to sit there and go,

oh, what an unbelievable job by Quinn Snyder. I mean, like, he's not doing anything to people. Like, it's, like a couple years ago, I remember, I think Popovich won it, and I remember thinking, God, man, I don't care if they just barely missed a play Jeff Hornacek could get coach of the year because that's insane. I thought that team was a 15-win team, and they ended up like almost making the playoffs.

So shouldn't it be somebody that we didn't expect to pull off? And again, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, right? Somebody we thought was not going to be that good that's way better than we expected, and a big-time portion of that can be attributed to the coaching job that somebody has done. So on the jazz, I mean, you're right. they're not necessarily doing anything different, but they're doing it despite injuries to their key players. I think Hayward and Hill have only played six games together or seven games together.

I'm not totally sure on that. But in terms of your argument, I agree. And that's my argument in favor of someone like Luke Walton. If I were voting, I think I would have Luke Walton in my top three, just because of the way he successfully installed their system, the way the guys are playing together, the chemistry they're displaying together. I think the job he's done is remarkable for it to happen in the short amount of time that it has. So look, yeah, I think Luke Walton, a guy who nobody expected the Lakers to even be competitive.

And their team hovering around 500, they're on the playoff bubble. We'll see what happens with that. I think what Luke Walton's done is unbelievable and he should be in the conversation as well. But I don't necessarily think that'll happen, but maybe it should. Well, here's what I know. The guy that I picked, at least for the quarter season award, Popovich, they could start five guys that 90% of basketball fans have never even heard of before. Roshan Holmes. And he'd have it.

Stop it. Do you know how many tweets I get about Rishon Holmes now? I know. People are telling me to flip him on last night. I'm like, enough. I got to bring him on a podcast. You know what? I'm going to get to see him in person tonight.

That's right. You are. I have. I forgot about it. that. I need to go introduce myself to Rishon Holmes. Tell him, I think his minute should be doubled. You know I need to get a pitcher with Risholette Holmes tonight, right? Do it up. Me and him.

All right, defensive player of the year. I got Dremond. What you got? I got Dremont as well. Okay. All right. Let's just pass that over. I don't even think it's, I mean, the guy, like, and there's more honest put on him this year because of no Bogut, right? Like, he literally, he cards, there's nobody in the, like, there's no position that you don't feel comfortable him guarding. It's absurd. Yep. It's unbelievable.

And then with the success he has, defending often the best player on the opposing team, it's unbelievable. He's a stud. I mean, you see him lock down a center and then the next play, like you remember that Atlanta game last week, which is like perfect for his pilight reel. He gets switched on to Dennis Schrooter, who's super quick. and not only does he stay with him, he just packs him. It's crazy. Crazy. It's something else watching him.

I think, I mean, I don't feel bad, but I think it's disappointing that his kicking get so much attention because the things he does in the defensive end are just unreal. He's a stud. He doesn't need to stop kicking, though. Most improved, I got the Greek freak. I'm right there with you, Chris. We're kind of on the same page with some of these. Well, listen, I don't think that these are, if you're, if you're in,

Incredibly intelligent people. I think most intelligent people are going to agree. You know, the other one I marked down as a possible argument was your guy, George Hill. He hadn't played enough yet. He was on my shorts as well. But you were talking about a big uptick. I mean, he's had a big uptick. He's kind of always been, like, I think we could foresee the Greek freak taking a big leap.

That's possible. Jabari's also another one that should be in that mix, by the way, who's having a really good year. But you could see that. They're young guys. Dreson Barnes. Yeah, they're young guys that could take the leap. Another one. Whereas George Hill, we're very aware of George Hill.

George Hill's been around forever. Is he 30 now? Well, I mean, listen, Spurs, then Pacers for a good amount of years. I mean, what is he probably like a, George Hill's probably like a career, what, 12 point per game guy, something like that? I'll look it up right now. I got it. 11.5. I was close.

Yeah. Was he averaging 20? 20 hit right on the button. I mean, it's pretty late in a career to get a most improved award, but I almost, I mean, I think George Hill's got to be in the, he's got to be in the conversation. He's averaging 20 a game, and what was the most before this, probably like 15, right? On a Pacer's team? It was 16.1 and 43 games for the Pacers two years ago, so not a full year. Yeah, that's a good season, though.

George Churchill's right there, definitely. All right, so we're both on the Greek freak for most improved. Sixth man, I said Lou Williams. Yep, me as well, Chris. Yeah, he went crazy. Well, I mean, these are easy. He went crazy last night. I mean, he's leading that team in scoring.

It's not just the volume of scoring, though, for me with him. It's his efficiency, again, like getting back to the efficiency with Hardin. I just think he's been such an efficient player. And it's not just volume, though, because if you look at the qualifying bench player, and their points scored per 100 possessions, he still leads in points with around 35 per 100 possessions. So it's not like he's just getting more minutes and therefore he's getting more shots

and therefore he's getting more points. He's actually been efficient with his opportunities and he's doing it very, very well on a per possession basis. All right. I will tell you that if they miss the playoffs, which is probably to be expected, the Lakers, and the six-man of the year comes off a playoff team, my homie Zach Randolph got a chance.

He stuck out to me. It's typically from a good team. You know what I mean? Usually it's from somebody that makes the playoffs, assuming the Grizzlies could make the playoffs. All right. MVP, I've got Westbrook. You've got Hardin?

Yes. All right, this is through a quarter way through the season. And I would say if you had to predict at the end of the season, you think Hardin ends up, is who you would give the award to now, versus who you think is going to win in the end a different answer? Because mine is. I don't think Harden. I don't think he'll win because I think the stigma about his defense is strong,

and I don't think people will vote for him for that reason. But I would vote for him today, and maybe I would at the end of the year. It's very hard to predict. All right. I don't think at the end of the year that Westbrook is going to actually average the triple double. Therefore, history will remain. they'll give it to somebody that's on a one or a two seed. The efficiency numbers are going to be so astronomically ridiculous

that Durant will end up getting it. Rookie of the year and B'd both agreed on that. Coach of the year, I've got Popovich. You've got Quinn Snyder. Yep. Defensive player of the year, we both have Draymond, most improved player. We both have the Greek freak.

And sixth man in the year, we both have Louis Williams. You know who's having a sneaky, great six-man season, too? Who I should have mentioned? Wilson Chandler Yeah he has Definitely He's averaging 18.6 and 7 rebounds Shooting 48% from the field

Wilson Chandler How about him Really really good season All right first team all NBA This is not going to be a long conversation Kevin Westbrook Harden Durant

Those are locks LeBron Locke So we're really just arguing about the center Yeah We're both on the same page with those four The center's Mark Asall. Give me a break.

I get Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis, if I'm being serious. Okay. Are we considering him a center? Okay. Here's my issue with this center forward. Because look, should we consider him a center? I don't know.

I mean, who were the centers? Like who were the nominees for center? All right. Is he considered the center? Gasol, Jordan, Drummond, Horford. Whiteside. White's having a crazy year, by the way, statistically. I mean, team stinks, but he's having an unbelievable year.

I mean, I don't know. Do you consider Anthony Davis a center? I mean, I wish. What did they list him as a couple years ago when he made all NBA? I just wish the award would be a little bit more progressive and go by Biggs, wings, and guards, or Biggs, forwards, wings, and guards, or just forget about a position and just go with the five. best players. You and I agree.

Listen, DeAndre Jordan making a first team all NBA is stupid. Last year, it was I'm sorry, Jordan, Cousins Drummond, or the first, second, and third team. I mean, is Draymond Green considered a center or the Ford?

You know what I mean? I just, it's hard, it's hard to define, but... Well, they defined Anthony Davis as a forward two years ago. Okay. Ooh, so that would make a good one. I guess you just had to put him on the second team, right? I mean, you're not moving the ball. I guess I would have to, or else I'd be breaking the rules, apparently.

Wait, damn, man, we didn't even say Curry. Yeah, I know. So, Curry's not going to be first team. He's not going to be first team of all NBA? You know, when I'm curious about Chris, if, let's say Westbrook maintains his triple double, but he still isn't an efficient player, will there be at least one person that votes

for Westbrook not on the first team. Will Westbrook not be on someone's first team or would the fear of being shamed for not having the player on your first team prevent anybody from putting him on the second or third team? Despite having a triple double. There's always one hater. Come on. If you're asking me to bet, is there one hater out there?

The answer is yes. Yeah, just one. 100%. You know what? I'm looking at these teams. You're dead on about this whole, about this whole. It is just goofy. It's all get out that it has to be a quote, traditional center because

well I mean we're thinking listen to this how about this all right if we just went by like if we did it we agreed on West as of right now Westbrook garden Durant LeBron and then let's just find a center if you don't want to say it's Gassau then we could say

it is I guess cousins we'll just say cousins right now right I mean it's cousins the center or is he they listed in a center last year a quote unquote forward I mean on two forwards are LeBron and Durant, who are guys that handle the ball.

LeBron leads his team and assists. He's essentially like their playmaker, but he has the designation of a forward. And Cousins is, by everybody's definition, is a big man. But yet he would be thrown into the same category as LeBron and Kevin Irom, which just doesn't make a lot of sense. Well, no, no, Cousins was a center last year. He's second team all-N-B-A center. Yeah.

He was second-team all-N-B-A. But, I mean, think about this. the second, if the guys that we're talking about are all NBA through a quarter of the way the season, make it at the end, your second team, theoretically, would be Chris Paul, Steph Curry, whoever you want to put it center, Kauai Leonard, and like Dremond. Yeah, whoever you want to put that right.

Or Anthony Davis. We didn't even list them. Yeah, right? We didn't even list them. Good grief. To your point about the league being in great shape. I mean, like those are all first team Whoever makes a second team all NBA Like you're either going to have

Because they pick two guards There's not enough room for Westbrook Hardin Curry and Paul Like two of those guys last year Second team all NBA was Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook And the starters were I'm sorry, I'm sorry, no Curry and Westbrook And then second team was actually Lillard and Paul

And we haven't even mentioned Damien Lillard It's stacked, Chris. It's really stacked. Yeah, they need to get rid of that whole center thing. You're right. I guess we give it to cousins right now, right? Yeah. Yeah, I'd mean, I'd go with probably Anthony Davis,

but if we don't want to call him a center, then maybe Boogie, maybe Mark a Sol if they want to consider them traditional centers, but Anthony Davis would be my selection. Yeah. Kevin O'Connor, you can follow him on Twitter at Kevin O'Connor. Connor NBA. You can also find me online if you want to ask us any questions are at the week at Chris Vernon Show.

One word Chris Vernon show. Kevin, have an unbelievable week and we'll catch up with you next week. Maybe by next week we'll get a 70-point game by somebody on the Warriors, Chris. Why don't you write about it? Because, hell, as soon as you, you know what you should write tomorrow, but Clay Thompson's night proves you can't get 70 in the league. So then like the next night somebody score 70. We'll save those hot takes for first take.

Fair enough. I'll talk to you later. Thanks, Kevin. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for listening to another edition of the NBA show. If you dig with your hand, head over to iTunes and give us a rating and review. We'll talk to you on Thursday. Thanks again to Vicerland.

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