The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 54: Houston Experiment, Potential Trades, and Harden vs. Westbrook

Episode Date: January 3, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the Rockets' rise in the Western Conference (5:00), Eric Gordon's all-star candidacy (12:00), potential teams to challenge the Cavs and Warriors (19:00), superstar trade scenarios (26:00), the glut of good point guards (31:00), the MVP race between James Harden and Russell Westbrook (38:00), and coaches on the chopping block heading into 2017 (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NBA podcast. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday and for the first time in 2017, Kevin O'Connor from the Ringer. What's up, Kev? Happy New Year. We have not spoken since prior to Christmas. Did you get your soundproofing materials that you had asked for? No, I haven't gotten on that yet, Chris. Soon enough, though. Did you get anything for Christmas, Kevin?

No, just like I said on that podcast, just the little things. That's what matters. And I was in Houston. That was fun. You did go to Houston and you wrote an article, which is up today at the ringer.com. The Houston Experiment, the player coach GM trio of James Harden, Mike DeAntony, and D. D.N. Tony and D.R.M. Morey seemed made for one another. And that's because they needed one another.

And then you took an inside look at their start of the season. All right. So you go down to Houston and you're going to try to find out what's what with everything that has gone on with the rockets and this transformation that they have taken on this year after, you know, they had made the West Finals, then they had had that miserable season last year, and now it reinvented themselves into something that we have never seen before. Biggest takeaways from just being there, being around them, and listening to them talk about this new look rockets. Yeah, so, you know, going down there, obviously you go kind of with a plan of what,

what I'm going to write about. And obviously, obviously going to touch on the three-point shooting, the historic rate they're attempting threes at, and their style of play, which you mentioned is really unique. But really, my takeaway is just the chemistry this team has.

I mean, the guys love each other. They really get along. Just hearing the way Ryan Anderson talks about Eric Gordon, the way Eric Gordon talks about Ryan Anderson, the way Dan Tony just loves the way the guys click together. You know, he's said something along the line, of like we have good guys, we have tough guys, we have nice guys, and all the guys get along. It's a really good mix, which is kind of the opposite of what they had last year with Dwight Howard.

So it's a sudden change, and for them, they're one of the best teams in the NBA, and I think they're a legit contender, not just because of their talent, but because of their chemistry they have. Well, what was really interesting, two things. First of all, I saw that Houston team in person several times last year, and it was just totally bizarre. Like they, when you talk about chemistry, they lacked all chemistry. Like, they wouldn't even, like, talk to each other when they were headed back to the huddles

and whatnot. And it was so bizarre because they had, you know, you figured they had, they had come back from that 3-1 deficit. They had made the West Finals. So it wasn't like this, you know, a big group of them had success. And so when Darryor was on the Ringer podcast, people could go back and listen to this in retrospect. But one of my first guest on this podcast was Daryl Morey.

And when I asked him about it, he kept going back to Ty Lawson. And basically saying, I screwed up. I should have never put him in the mix. It screwed things up. And then what was odd is I had Corey Brewer on a couple of weeks ago. And he kind of talked about how the Lawson thing didn't work and that he needed the ball and hard needed the ball. And then one thing that I had not really thought of, which was that the Lawson thing and then kept them trying to stick that square peg into a round hole, one of the effects was they all love Beverly. And I didn't even consider that, right?

That he's like the heartbeat of that team. And so the Lawson thing affected him, right? That was his spot. And so I think there was probably some resent from that. And it was just crazy to see a team that made the West Finals then become what they became last year. And then fire McHale after what, like a couple weeks into the season. Like 11 games.

Yeah, it was all a mess. So now they're going to reinvent themselves. And your biggest questions for them going into the article, what were you thinking? Oh, you mean like what did I want to come away with? Yeah, yeah. You wanted to come away with like, were you most interested in? The Hardin side of it, the Dantoni side of it, the Moray side of it.

Yeah, so it was kind of really a look at how they got to where they are today. So Dan Tony's background, Darryl Morey's background, where they are, and kind of where they're going. What's the potential, the ripple effects of the season that they're having? I don't necessarily think NBA teams are going to start jacking up threes at a 46% clip like they are. but I do think what they do is different and I think there's definitely something to be to be learned from what they do and I think looking back in NBA history

that was kind of one of the points of the article is they're not the only team ever to launch threes at a higher rate so for example Stan Van Gundy's Orlando Magic launched threes at like 12% higher than the average team at the time so obviously they didn't put up 46% of their shots weren't threes,

but in their respective seasons, they were still doing it at a similar rate. The 0-203 Celtics, the team that had Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce, they put up like eight threes a game, each of them. They actually shot more threes per game relative to the rest of the league

in their season 15 years ago. So teams just haven't done it at the level of the rockets have. That's one of the things Dan Tonius, stressed to me when I talked to him and the next day he was asked a similar question is that with his son's teams they they had the idea of wanting to do what the rockets are doing now but they just didn't have the the analytics backing it up so now that there's just like a perfect storm of analytics and basketball philosophy I think at the time we're right we're at now in the

NBA and we're seeing it with the rockets and with some other teams just to a little bit of a lesser extent. You know, old school guys are going to do the whole live by the three, die by the three, jump shooting teams. And we do know there's more half-court basketball and it does slow down more when it gets to the playoffs, right? Just your thoughts on, is this sustainable for high-level playoff basketball? Or is this going to be one of those where people are going to point and laugh and say, ha, see, you told you, that's all fun during the regular season when you get to the playoffs. you got to be able to post up and you got to be able to do this. You got to be able to do that.

And when the game slows down, and there's going to be nights where you're just not hitting threes. And so you are susceptible to loss. What do you think? Is this style of play, can this style of play win the biggest prize now? So there's two sides of that, Chris. I think for one, and this is something we kind of alluded to in the article in the ringer, was that they have the second most efficient half-court scoring offense. So I have no question that they're going to be able to sustain their offense when it comes to the playoffs because they've shown in the half court when the game does slow down and it becomes a half court game that they can still score at a ridiculously high level.

The other side of that is obviously the defensive end. You need to be able to get stops, right? I think there's two parts of that. For one, they're going to score a lot of points so they're not going to be put into transition situations, which for any team is, is, where you're going to get burnt the most. So they're going to have a lot of half-court situations just due to the fact that they score a lot. And not only that, they've been really, really good defending in the half-court.

According to Synergy, they allow the 11th least points per possession in the half-court. So will they sustain that? I don't know. You don't know? Nobody knows. It's really difficult to project ahead with that. But at this stage of the season and what we've seen, I think they have a borderline top-10 half-court defense, a borderline top-10 defense period.

it overall. So if they sustain that, I have no doubt that they can have success in the playoffs. It's just a matter of do they sustain it come April, May, and June. We'll see what happens there, but I do think that at this stage, they're in a good spot. Championship level teams are usually

they got top 10 and frequently top five in both, right? Offensive and defensive efficiency. They are, as it stands right now, 16th in defensive efficiency overall. So they're middle of the pack in defense. right now. And I do wonder if the style of play, you know, it's kind of like a football team,

and you saw this a lot more in college, where it's, you know, the teams that play really up-tempo and really fast, they, if it doesn't succeed, it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on their defense, right? Because they are, they're just sending them right back out to the field. You know, they went, they went three and out. It took nine seconds off the clock, and then their poor defense has to get back out on the field. Now, when it, when it does work, they're flying up and down the field and having two-minute drives. And I do wonder if some of it is, you know, it's hard to have an amazing defense if you play that way.

Because inevitably, you are going to miss and it puts a lot of pressure on yourself, right? No, absolutely. And I think that's the argument. Someone commented on the article somewhere about how, you know, come playoff time, the spurs are going to still kill them because the spurs are a far superior defensive team. And maybe that's true. Maybe that will happen. for the reasons you outlined with football.

But I still think the rockets are different this year. This feels different to me, and I'm really excited to see if it does continue to translate. What about Dantone? Or D'Antonia, just being around him. What were your thoughts? For one, he's a really nice guy. Yeah.

The first thing I asked him was about his brother's comments. If people didn't see that, essentially Dan Dantone is a coach in college, and he was asked about feeding the, post and and he gave a long rambling response in which he said i didn't finish my damn analytics story yet and he just went through the numbers right about how the post up is a low efficiency shot and so i asked mike dantonie about that and he basically said sometimes you're just feeling good sometimes you get the podium and you just let it go and we did talk a little bit more

about that in the sense that they run a lot of pick and roll and in his mind why do anything else if it's so tough to stop because of their diverse attack with James Hardin who can score from any level can make any pass with their offball shooters Eric Gordon Trevor Areza with their rim running centers with Ryan Anderson they have an incredible pick and roll attack and I think they know how to use their they know how to use their pieces and kind of I guess traditional ways of the pick and roll but they also get creative with the type of attacks that they use. And I think there's an understanding at all levels with Darrell Mori in terms of assembling

the personnel, Mike D'Antony, how to use that personnel, and the players buying into their roles that has really put them at the level that they are. There's just buy-in everywhere. I thought it was interesting that Moray basically told you that they had coveted Ryan Anderson, that that was a guy that had been on their radar for a long time. Yeah, I mean, he said they tried to, it was at the introductory press conference. He mentioned that they tried to get him before, and I asked him about that. And he said they've been obsessed with Ryan Anderson for a long time.

And the interesting part is Ryan Anderson said to me that he and James Hardin have actually talked about playing together for quite a while now. So obviously, Hardin himself obviously saw the potential potency of their combination. And they've just been terrific. It's really hard to stop. As has Gordon, who has been fantastic this year. And you've seen recently Hardin and Anderson, another stump for him as an all-star candidate, that Eric Gordon could be an all-star.

One of the major things is clearly those guys have both been injury-riddled, Anderson and Gordon. So health is number one. Number two, they're in a great spot fit-wise. But what do you make of the whole Eric Gordon should be an all-star? I don't know if he'll make the All-Star team, but I can see why his teammates are pushing for him. And would their vote now in the All-Star game,

I'm sure they will give him their vote. I mean, he's not going to make the All-Star team, but hey, sixth man of the year, he's been unbelievable. I had a stat in the article that when James Hardin is off the floor, obviously they need a guy to take on that playmaking responsibility to take on that scoring responsibility. And Eric Gordon has just been unbelievable. He plays about eight to nine minutes per game without Hardin. And in those eight to nine minutes, he averages 29.2. points per 36 minutes. So he suddenly becomes the superstar level score in the time he's playing without James Hardin. And then he's able to still revert back into more of his spot-up role

when he's playing with Hardin. And there's not enough you can say about a guy who, with two drastically different types of roles, is still playing at essentially an all-star level. He's not putting up all-star numbers overall, but he's playing at that level, shooting over 42% from three, passing the ball well. He's playing the best basketball of his career right now. And you mentioned Brian Anderson earlier with Eric Gordon, too. They're just two perfect fits for the Dan Tony offense. It's really exciting to watch.

Yeah, a guy finally finds his place. Eric Gordon, you know, there's guys like him, and you just wonder what would have been if they would have ended up somewhere different, right? It's not bad teams, the Clippers team. And then, of course, he's part of the Paul Tray. and the New Orleans seat. I mean, it's not like you remember these big playoff exploits. A guy's been in the league for a long time, right?

And like he finally just kind of has found a spot, and people are now taking notice of him. It just, it's another one of those, like, you know, so much of your NBA career is dependent upon, like, opportunity and fit and just where you ended up. And so, I don't know. Well, you look at guys like Eric Gordon, and you wonder, I mean, I loved him.

Indiana, didn't you? I thought he was going to be a really good pro when he came out in that loaded draft. But it just never, I mean, now he's having his best season. We're years down the road. Yeah. Yeah, that's one thing more he kind of alluded to is so with Gordon and Anderson, they were kind of hidden, you know, for multiple reasons. The main one being their injury history. But he said in their research with them, they think, most of those were just one-off injuries. They don't think they're chronic injuries. So they feel confident that based on what the research they did before signing them is that they're going to be fine. And you can say the same thing about Mike D'Antoony too.

Mike D'Antoony was a little bit hidden from the league for a while. Mori mentioned how he had poor personnel fits in New York and L.A., but he's obviously been very, very good when he has had good personnel fits. And he did for a short while with the Knicks when Carmelo Anthony was out hurt and Lynn Sanity was happening. They had Jeremy Lynn, Amari Stodemeyer, Tyson Chandler. They had a good team, a good team for a short while until, obviously, things imploded there and Dan Honey resigned. But he's had success when he's had good personnel fits. And he has a perfect personal fit here in Houston because they've been able to get guys who have been a little bit overlooked Anderson and Gordon.

So they did a really good job putting this team together. All right. Last thing on this Rockets article, which people can go read at the ringer.com by Kevin O'Connor, how high do they get? Let's say the Warriors are prohibitive favor to be the number one seed. Do you think we could look up in Houston, who is a game back from San Antonio for the two seed?

When it's all said and done, what seed do you think Houston ends up with? I think they'll end up the two seed. You do? Yeah. You think they'll surpass the Spurs by the time it's all said and done? Yeah, I do. And plus, you get a factor in that Craig Popovich is going to arrest his guys,

probably more than the rockets are going to rest their guys. Gotcha. Quick break for a word of our sponsors, and when we come back, we'll give you five storylines headed into 2017. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Harry's. For decades, one big Razor Company has relentlessly increased prices and reaped immense profits at the expense of their customers. So Jeff and Andy, two ordinary guys that were fed up with getting ripped off, started Harry's to fix shaving.

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Most teams are 33 to 35 games played so far. All right, so number one storyline. Can anyone challenge the Cavs or the Warriors? Both, you know, when we started this season, people were like, why don't we just fast forward to the finals, right? But now from what we have seen, Do you think, which of those is more susceptible and can anyone challenge either of them? By challenge, I assume you don't mean beat, right?

You mean like take him the six, take him the seven. No, no. I'm saying, is there any chance that that's not the NBA finals? I mean, I want to say, yeah, there's a chance because there's always a chance. but assuming good health, assuming, you know, LeBron doesn't turn his ankle or whatever, I think there's a really,

really high percent chance still at that's the finals. I think the Warriors would be more susceptible than the Cavs. Well, they have a tougher path, too. I mean, I think there's more chances along the way that they'll just enter a cold streak, and for whatever reason they might lose to a team. So I would agree with you in the sense that even though they might be a better team,

that they definitely are more successful to losing in the playoffs. Well, we saw a team get them down 3-1 last year. And let them off the hook, right? Yep. And I don't, do you think this warrior team's better than last years? Yeah, they have Kevin Durant.

Yeah, I know, but their bench is not. Yeah, it's not. I used to, when, maybe that's just me. I just felt like watching them last year that there would be games where they bring in Barbosa and most baits Livingston,

and whatever. And, like, their bench could bury you, too. It doesn't feel like that now. Sometimes it feels like they've got to get by, right? But that bench rarely comes in and just, it packs it. You know what I mean? The starters would go out and they'd be up by 16. And then by the time the starters would come back in,

maybe they would never come back in, right? Look how many, remember how many fourth quarters Curry didn't even play last year? He wasn't even playing in the fourth quarter. No, you're right. They're right. And so, I don't know. I get that they've got Kevin Durant, but I also felt like they were more dominant last year. Well, hell, they won 73 games, so that's not a reach to say.

I don't know. I just kind of feel like there's a lot of good teams in the West. And I don't think, I mean, good grief, I don't know who could, unless there's like a big trade, I don't know who could really even challenge the Cavs. I would think it's more likely for the Warriors to get taken to a seventh game in a series than the Cavs right now. Now. The thing is with the Warriors, though, is in the playoffs, Green, Kari, Thompson, Durant, Iwadala, those guys are all going to be playing, like high 30s, 40 minutes per game. So the bench's importance is going to be diminished come playoff time. And that's kind of just the thing for me

is right now, yeah, having a worse bench definitely hurts them, but come playoff time, I don't know if it's going to matter. They're going to have their superstars on the floor the entire damn game and I just have a hard time seeing anybody stopping them unless they just enter a stretch where they just aren't clicking and the other team is firing on all cylinders. Maybe that'll be the Spurs. Maybe it'll be the Rockets.

I don't really see another team in the West that could beat them. That's fair. I will just say this. I'm just, I'm praying for competition Kevin. I'm trying here. Yeah. But you know, you're right, you're right. And I think, but that's the thing. Like, if a series

goes six, that is. That is competition, right? I mean, I think that is challenging the team in the playoffs. Yeah, that's for sure. All right, so we still right now, I don't know, I obviously, you'd have to pick it

to still be the finals, but I kind of, I'm starting to feel like maybe somebody could pick the Warriors off. Maybe that's just, maybe that's just a fool's errand. All right, number two, storyline. Who gets traded? Everybody's been buzzing about

Millsap. Yeah, I mean, Millsap, I think Atlanta would be wise to move them. I think they made the mistake last year of asking for too much for Al Horford. They were in a different situation last year. But last year they were asking, at least from the Celtics, they wanted the Nets pick, which ended up being the number three pick. They're obviously not going to get anything close to that for Paul Millsap. But I think they have to take what they can get. They're about to enter a transition phase in their franchise.

And maybe that'll mean tearing it down. Maybe that'll mean also training a guy like Kyle Korver. Because, look, any contending team would love to have Kyle Corver on their team. So I think they have good pieces on their team, but it might be time to tear it down. But you mentioned Paul Millsap, but is there really a superstar? A superstar that could be traded. I mean, everybody talks about DeMarcus cousins, and you could argue like we've talked about before that they should trade them. But they're the eight seed right now.

Paul George, Jimmy Butler, the Pacers and Bulls are sliding. but are they going to really trade their guys? I don't think so. So I don't know if we're going to see a superstar dealt, but maybe we'll see the Paul Millsaps and the Andrew Boggits of the world moving teams. The Atlanta Journal Constitution, their latest reports are that Millsap is not getting moved,

even though his name's been buzzed about everywhere, they are saying they're not getting rid of their best player. But then there was the other reports, right, that have happened recently that said they're scared of not getting anything for them. right because he's got free agency and so that he right like they're not shopping him but they don't want to lose him for nothing and milsap he feels like a needle mover for a team like i think if he got in the right fit you know like they were talking about toronto i mean that's a game

changer don't you think if toronto was adding milsap and you're throwing lowry de rosen and Millsap in a starting lineup at somebody? Yeah, I mean, he's a game changer, but is he a serious changer? Would he put the Raptors over the top of the Cavaliers? I don't think so. I don't think he would put the Celtics over the Cavaliers, or, you know, I don't think he would. I don't think if a team out West's got him, I don't think, like, let's say the rocket's gone up or whatever.

I don't think that that would put the rockets over the Warriors. I know it wouldn't. And, you know, here's the thing with Millsap is he's, you know, he's. He's going to be 32 next month. Obviously, like you mentioned, he's going to be a free agent. And he's going to get a max contract this summer, I would assume. So what do you really want to give for him? That's kind of my big question, considering the fact that he also hasn't been quite as efficient as a scorer this year.

I just have a hard time, if I'm a GM of a contending team, I have a hard time, I think, giving up a lot of assets for him, knowing that he might help, but he might not put. us over the top and the fact that he's a free agent and the fact that he's going to be 32. So he's a tough guy. Well, because you would, you'd have a big decision in the off season anyway. Yeah. Right? If you're trading for him, then you are dedicating that we're going to ride out Millsap for the next, you know, whatever, four years. And we're going to pay him $100 million.

Well, it depends on what you trade for him, too. If you get him on the cheap, I think you'll, you're fine with making your run with him. and then if you don't want to pay him, you don't pay them. But if you've got to give up like a first-round pick and a top prospect and then another future pick or something like that, I don't know. I don't know if I'd want to do it unless I really, really feel like he puts my team over the top. Yeah.

Well, how much of Millsab's year is because of everything changing so much in Atlanta? I mean, he was an outstanding player on a team that won 60 games in the NBA, just a few years ago, right? Yeah. And how much is it just, you know, it's not a great fit anymore? I mean, that Atlanta team's been a disappointment, I think it's fair to say. No, you're totally right. And look, his efficiency could easily skyrocket if a team like the Raptors or Celtics or, I don't know, who else.

A contending team were to get him. I think his efficiency would improve, but I still can't get over the fact he'll be 32 and a free agent in the summer who will probably get a max contract. Those are the tough things for me to get over. Why do you hate Paul Millsup? I love Paul Millsap. I do. No, for real, I loved Paul Millsap. I think like 08, 09.

I forget who was he playing behind that year, but I remember watching the jazz thinking, man, this Paul Millsap dude is really, really good. And that was before he could, like, shoot threes and stuff. And he's had a really good career. I'm glad that he's reached a level that he has. Well, then stop be smirching him. Let this man give his money

I'm fair, I understand Anybody else that we think I mean, Millsap wasn't intriguing name Just because he's been an all-star caliber player In the NBA There has not been as much buzz yet It feels like it's going to amp up pretty soon though You know when you're hearing names

It's like you know, I don't know You read the reports Coast of Cufus and the Rockets And like you know This guy's getting dangled Rondo If they could Like who the hell is going to trade for race John Rondo like what? That one was out there.

You know, I saw Harrison Barnes' name. I thought that one was interesting, right? If you're... You mentioned Rondo. I don't want to like shit on Rondo, but who would trade for him? I mean, is there a team in the NBA that would trade for Rajan Rondo? Knowing the fact, like, his personality is still obvious. I think his desire probably to be a starter, knowing the fact that he hasn't accepted a straight-up bench rule.

even though he's handling this well, to be fair, I think if he was accepting of the fact that he's now a fringe bench player, I think I'd be a little bit more willing to trade for him, but considering his history, I don't know if you want that in a backup point card. And I just don't see a team that's going to make him a starter. You go down the list, there's really not a team that would do that. Like, you could put him on the worst team in the NBA, and they would still probably want to start the guy that they have.

The nets aren't going to start Rondo over. Jeremy Lynn. The Sixers probably aren't starting Rajat Rondo over Ben Simmons. You know what I mean? I don't see a team in the NBA where he's a starter. All right, let's get to some of these teams as we get closer to the All-Star break, trade deadline, et cetera, the teams that are just going to say, all right, forget it, we're in a rebuild mode and who you could poach off of them. Bledsoe with the Sons? You know what I mean? Could you go snagg Bledsoe? I do think, I'm just trying to see on the ratty teams, who would, like, really move the needle if they went somewhere else.

And it feels like Bledso would for the Sons. I don't know, I mean, I don't know who else on their roster. Like, they're not going to trade, you know, they're going to keep the young guys, right? They're going to keep the guys like the Devin Bookers and the, oh, T.J. Warren, right? But Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, any interest in him? Yeah. a bad year. If I were Phoenix, I'd definitely look to move Blutzo or a knight.

And they have Tyler Ulyss. I'd like to see him get more playing time towards the end of the season. He's been solid when he's received opportunity, especially the past week. He's a little guy only 5'10, but that dude is a really, really smart, intelligent point guard, really quick, great shooter. I'd like to see them move Blutzo or Knight

in order to get ULis more playing time and opportunity because he'll be a good point guard for a long time. I'd love to see Bledso. I'd love to see him on a good team, really. Even when he was in that first contract of the Clippers, I mean, he flipped playoff series. That was the Vinnie Del Negro era clippers. But I mean, I watched him single-handedly flip a series against the Grizzlies

where, like, you couldn't even get the ball past half court against the guy half the time. He was such a menace. And he's just like, it's just being lost, right? the blood so stuff. It's kind of sad because he's average of 20 points a game but that team is atrocious. What about Dallas?

Anybody there? If you're going to be sellers? Bogot. Edgar Bogot. I'd want him on my team if I need room protection and rebounding. I don't care about the injuries. I don't think he would,

I mean, we talked earlier about Millsap, who I think would probably cost a lot. I can't imagine Bogot costing a whole lot. You think they would just bail already on that? I just don't know if they have a choice come trade deadline time. I mean, what's the use in keeping Bogot when he's going to be a free agent this coming summer? I think they should move them to even if all they got is a second round pick.

That second round pick could turn out to be a good player for them or an additional asset that they could use in trades. I think they're going to get a piece. Timberwolves? You know, I brought up Levine and people get mad when I bring up back Levine. You know, but if you're going to move somebody, right, off that timber wolves, Wolf's team. You know Tibodeau's going to make a move, right? And I kind of like, I don't know, they've got some

guys on their team. It's obviously not working, right? And their record is dismal. Rubio would be one, right? I think Rubio moves the needle? I don't know. I mean, he's a better player than

Rajan Rondo, but it's kind of the same conversation. Which teams, like which playoff teams really need a point guard? I mean, just go down the list. There's so many point guards in the NBA, so many good point guards. I just don't know which team you could look at and say they need to get Ricky Rubio. Ricky Rubio is going to be the difference maker for them. Like if Mike Conley were out, we're still out, you could say the Grizzlies need a point guard,

but Conley's back and he's killing it. I just, maybe the Kings, but that's about the only team I can see in the West at least. That's an interesting one. The Kings. Yeah, maybe them. But then again, what are they going to deal for them? And they have no shooting anyway. So that just makes it all that much worse. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean.

It's just hard to find a good fit. Yeah, it is hard to find a good fit. And in terms of the Easter cover, so those are the bottom three teams in the West. In terms of the East, Dragich, Dragus could get moved. I'd move them. Right? I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, the thing is it's like, how does Miami want to build? Well, they're going to tear it.

They're going to rebuild. They're just going to rebuild. I'm just intrigued. I do wonder if Pat Riley views Drogich as one of the guys that he wants to keep as part of the core, or if he views him as a tradable piece to get a better asset.

Like if they could get a first for him and another young player and then draft the point guard because this class is just loaded with point guards, maybe that would be a better path for them. Even if they didn't, even if they didn't, a player for player trade. That's always the angle. I think sometimes it gets overlooked

as if Miami were to trade Drogich for a wing or a Ford, maybe that's the best situation for them as opposed to trading him for a lower pick. Yeah. All right, Philly, we've already broached that, Okafore, right? If you're going to try to go and get something from Philadelphia, that would

probably be the guy that they're going to move, if they're going to move somebody. Yeah, definitely over for them. All right, and then Brooklyn, anything off there. I mean, God, they got nothing. I mean, that kid, Kilpatrick, he's been outstanding. But in terms of, I guess, Brooke

Lopez could finally get moved, right? I mean, what's a point anymore? That feels like his names come up every year. Maybe this is the year that somebody takes on Brooke Lopez. Yes, I would, again, same thing kind of with Phoenix, as I think if I'm the Nets, I'd want to get

a little bit younger and move Brooke Lopez. Granted, they'd be even worse this year, and it doesn't matter because they don't have their pick. I think they've got to try to get another pick. They have to try to get a second mid first round pick. So that way, with the Celtics pick that they'll receive from the swap, they would have like another, let's say number 15 for Brooke Lopez. You could package those two picks and move up or you could draft two players who could be part of your future because they need to build with youth. And I don't view Brooke Lopez is one

of the guys that should necessarily be part of their future for that matter. You think you get a one and some players for him? I think you could get a one for Brooke Lopez. I think the fact that he added the three-pointer this year, and he's shooting it quite well, actually, makes him a little bit easier to fit on another team. Yeah. All right, let's get to the number three storyline. Who's going to be eighth in the west?

Seems like seven are pretty solid with the Warriors, Spurs, Rockets, Jazz Clippers, Grizzlies, Thunder. And then there's this eighth spot. And we got Sacramento, who's narrowly ahead. of Portland and Denver and then New Orleans is a game and a halfback of them. So you got those, so if we throw out

if we say, okay, it's not going to be the Lakers, the T-wolves, the Mavs or the Sons. So you're talking about four teams. Kings, Blazers, Nuggets, Pelicans. I know. Hard, man. I still think I

still probably lean towards the Blazers just because I think talent, the talent rise at some point of the season. I think they have the best team on paper of those three. I want to say the Nuggets because I love their mix. I love Yokic. I think everybody loves Nicola Yokic. But I just lean towards the Blazers at this stage pending there's no movement between those teams. I think I'm going to surprise you. I'd say Pelicans. There we go. Yeah, I would. I'd say Pelicans. Because you want to talk about the best player.

Anthony Davis. If he's if he's uninjured and you know, once you're, you get Holiday back, right? And I guess they just gave a deal to Mona Eunice, I'm reading. Yeah, they've been really good. They just got a deal with Moni Unis, though. That helps them. Right? Yeah. One year deal, so

now you got Dante. I'm surprised about that. Monty Unis is now going to be a Pelican. It doesn't. And there's not enough that can be said about just how good they've been ever since Drew Holiday returned. Yeah. He's elevated their play to another level and he's a guy who's a free agent this summer they'll have a hard choice between

wanting to look at other places or probably wanting to re-sign him but right now they're looking they're looking really good six and four in their last 10 games they've been really good yeah do you like Monty Unis yeah he's solid solid role player he'll definitely help I like him

as a theoretical fit next to Anthony Davis good floor spacer but I also I also like the guys that they've had I thought I think Terrence Jones has played quite well for them. But I do think it's a good addition and definitely will boost their chances. And at the least,

it allows them to have a little bit more lineup flexibility with what they put out there and that allow them to adapt to different types of teams that they face. All right. So I'm going, I'm going Pelicans. You're going Blazers. It sounded reluctantly.

Yeah, I'm going Blazers. All right. I'm confident in that. Number four, who the MVP is. Boy, this race is going to be unbelievable, right? We're now 33, like to 35 games into the season. Westbrook is averaging a tick under 31 points, 10.5 assist and 10.4 rebounds. So he's averaging the triple double.

And he has a 30.1 P.E.R. Right? And I went and looked this up. There have been 19 seasons where a guy had a 30 PER. As everybody knows, so an average NBA player efficiency rating would be 15. So 30 is like one of the all-time great seasons. There's been 19 times it's been done. Four by Jordan, four by LeBron, three by Wilts Chamberlain, three by Shack, and then each of these players did it one time.

Anthony Davis, Steph Curry, David Robinson, Dwayne Wade, and Tracy McGrady. That's pretty unbelievable company, right? And right now, Westbrook's... is 30.1. Now, on the other hand, you have this Harden year that's going, and he just ended off the year with that 53, 17, and 16 performance that he had, and he's averaging 28 points, like about 12 assists and eight rebounds himself. I feel like you're going to say Harden.

Yep. You are. He is hard, Chris. Yes, sir. He was my pick before the year, and he still is now, and in some ways he's been better. than I thought he would be, primarily because of his efficiency. And his efficiency as a scorer is kind of the differentiator for me with him over Westbrook.

I mean, you mentioned his volume numbers 28, 12, and 8 or so. Those are incredible. But there's not a lot of guys in league history who have done that while being as efficient as he's been as a scorer. In the article on the ringer that was published today, I put a stat out there that said, with his 53 effective field goal percentage, the only guys who have even come close to those stats, so we're talking about a threshold of numbers are over 20 points per game,

over 6 assists per game, over 5 rebounds per game, with an effective field goal percentage, over 52. The only guys who have ever done that are Chris Paul, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, who did it three times, LeBron James, who did it once, and is doing it this year.

And then James Hardin, who is doing it this year. So he's having one of the best volume stats seasons ever, but he's doing it while remaining supremely efficient as a score. And that's just kind of the difference for me between him and Westbrook. Westbrook, unbelievable season. He's obviously a top three, top five MVP candidate. But what Hardin's doing is just unbelievable to watch. And that game he had last week on New Year's Eve, the 53-point game,

that just felt like it snuck up on me. When I was watching the game at Toyota Center, you know, you look at the, look at the scoreboard in the third quarter and you're like, holy shit. Like, this dude has a chance to do something crazy. And like I pulled up basketball reference and like put like 50 points, whatever he had at the time. And I was like, oh my God, nobody's done this ever since, you know, their database goes back. And obviously the stat that's out there now is the most points anybody's had in a lot. triple double since Wilts Chamberlain. That's unbelievable, man.

You know, you know, Wes Brooks got to be sitting around like, you know what, screw this. I'm averaging 30, 10, and 10. And somehow I'm not people's pick for the MVP. But it just goes to show me like you got these, you know, two just absurd seasons going on simultaneously. It's awesome. Right? It really is awesome. And by the way, nobody's even talking about the guy that's won at the last two years.

He's not even on the radar for it. Yeah. And who most people, I think, would say, is the best player in the world, LeBron. Yeah. It's crazy. That was the conversation I had before the game the other day with two Rocket Striders, Calvin Watkins from ESPN and MJ, MK, sorry, who the outlet that escapes me at the moment. But we talked about that.

We were talking about all these other players. And then like, it's like, what about LeBron? Yeah, right. What about LeBron? I mean, nobody's talking about LeBron. And I mentioned that sat earlier. LeBron's the other guy who's doing that. It's pretty wild, man.

The MVP race this year is just crazy. Well, and I told you, you know, I went when I pulled those numbers long ago about MVP's. And they were just, they're just all outside of that one-off Jordan year. they're all come from one or two seats. Their team was either one or two. So if we go back, I will say, Kevin, it's all lining up for you because I asked you earlier who would be the two seed and you think Houston's going to get there.

And if you think Hardin's going to be the MVP, that would all line up. If history tells us that the MVP comes from a one or two seed, then your whole Rockets love and this James Hardin MVP thing has got some legs to it at least right now. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that's the other argument. I think that that's something people will make is that Houston has a better team than Oklahoma

City, or they'll say Golden State or San Antonio has a better team. I think that'll be a common argument you see against Westbrook. And whether that's fair or not, I would say it's not fair, personally. I think that is an argument that people are going to be making against Westbrook. And, like, I don't want to ramble, but I just look back at the, 2004, Sy Young in baseball, when Randy Johnson lost to Roger Clemens. The only reason Roger Clemens won is because he had like 23 wins that year to Randy Johnson having like 11, an 11 and 10 record or something.

But Randy Johnson was better in every single statistical category at the time. So I think the wins argument is unfair if that's what people are going to use against Westbrook. But I just think the efficiency categories are still what he loses in compared to the other guys. Yeah, and you were talking about it. When you gave those numbers about the true field goal percentage, I mean, it's historic stuff that Hardin's doing likewise, right? I mean, like, it's one of the great all-time seasons that's going on right now. All right, last one for the five storylines.

Who gets fired? Ugh. Who would you bank on right now? All right, here, let's do a little. Are you talking right now today? Who would I fire? No, I'm saying, all right, let's, who is the first coach gone from this point on? I'll say

Hold on Okay Look here I haven't thought this through Very much Well I have one then While you're looking Oh really?

I think Fred Hoeryberg Even though I don't think he should be fired I just think I think with him Just with there's smoke There's fire I think he's going to be the scapegoat I don't think it's right

I don't think he should be fired I still think he's a good coach I just think he's been dealt a really Really really really awful hand The pieces he's been given or the opposite of what should work on his system. And I know it's the responsibility of the coach to use the players he has in the system

and tailor his system towards the players. But come on, come on. Like the players he was given are not built at all for modern NBA basketball. And I just think it'll be disappointing if he is let go. He looks like I'm looking up and down this. He looks like the only one to me.

I agree. I agree. there's really not. Look at all the bad teams. Like, Eric Spolcher's not going to get fired. Brett Brown's not going to get fired. Kenny Atkinson's not going to get fired. I don't think anybody from the bad teams is going to get fired. Rick Carlisle is not going to get fired. So it just had to be somebody that's not living up to expectations.

Yeah. Maybe Earl Watson with Phoenix Suns. Maybe him. How about Boodinthauser? I don't think so. That sounds crazy, right? I don't think so. I'm just saying it's usually a team that, even if the,

even if the management is goofy, right, in thinking that their team should be better. When we look up and we say, all right, who did we think is going to be better than what they actually are performing? Therefore, the blame game happens, right? Because the owner walks in and he goes, why are we frigging 500? And then the GM goes, because our coach is an asshole. And the coach goes because our GM's an asshole. Somebody ends up taking the knife for it. I think the other one's Nate McMillan, Indiana Pacers.

they've really failed to meet expectations. I'd say they're around where a lot of people thought they would be, but there were also people who viewed them as like a two or three seed. He just seems like another potential candidate. Really, though, there aren't many, at least at this stage of the season. Well, listen, the team in the West, that's the one not living up to what everybody thought, it's clearly Minnesota by a wide margin. I don't think there's anybody else.

Maybe Gentry. My playoff pick. If it went the wrong way, maybe Gentry. because they got a goofy franchise. And I don't know if he should be the one takes a sword. But honestly, if they don't make the playoffs, Gentry doesn't make it, right?

I don't know. I think it would be unfair to let him go. I just think some of these coaches deserve more time and more opportunity. Like I mentioned with Hoyberg, can anybody really blame him for the team's lack of success or they're just averageness?

I just think there's no argument to be made that it's his fault. It comes from the players that were acquired for him. It comes from Gar-Pax in the front office. Even then, I think the argument could be made that they shouldn't even be fired. But if there's anybody that you're going to let go, I don't think it should be Hoyberg. I think he's a good coach. But the issue is, and like this is another problem, like if a team fires the GM, right, the new GM that they bring in usually wants his guy as coach. So it's a tough situation for a team like that with the Bulls.

If ownership feels Hoyberg is a guy that they want to keep, the new GM might not feel that way. But I view Hoyberg as a guy that they should keep. And I think with the right players, with the right personnel fit, he's a good coach. The longest tenured guys, you know, outside of Popovich is obviously the longest tenured. But the other guys are Carlisle, Stott, Doc. Doc isn't going to fire himself Maybe he should fire himself as general manager

But he's not going to fire himself as coach No, but what about what about Stats or No Balmer could rock Balmer could roll him No I don't think so He's been billions of dollars for God's But what about the all right what about Stats or

Carlisle ain't going to get fired I think with the Clippers Things would have to go really wrong this year Like they would have to lose Chris Paul and Blake the free agency and not sign anybody for Ballmer to look at that situation and say, see you later, Doc. I just don't see it unless it goes really wrong for them. And it could.

They're three and seven in their last 10. It won't happen during the season, though. It would be like a summer firing. How about Stott's? I don't think so. I think he's been too good for too long. I think the season's more of a blip for them than anything else. And then Carlisle, we say no.

No way. He'll make it there. All right, so it looks like Hoyberg might be the one. And then I threw out maybe gentry or a boodinholzer. I don't know. I don't know. You just never know. Listen, guys get fired.

It's hard to make it even three years with a job in the league. And guys get fired out of nowhere for all manner of reasons. Guys resign out of nowhere too. Yeah, guys do resign out of nowhere for different reasons also. Kevin O'Connor, you demand. Everybody go check out Kevin's article inside Darrell Moray, Mike D. and Tony and James Hardin and everything that's going on with the Rockets. And we will catch up soon.

Thanks, brother. Thank you, Chris. Thanks for listening to another edition of the Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, head over at iTunes, give us a rating and review, and we'll talk to you all on Thursday.