The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 64: A Bizarre Night in the NBA

Episode Date: January 24, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss a weird evening in the NBA (0:55), Kevin's Isaiah Thomas interview (12:45), and whether or not acquiring Carmelo Anthony could put the Celtics above the Cavs (29:36). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The people have spoken, and Jeff Ross has returned for Roast Battle, too. The four-night event features tops comedians, getting verbally violent until just one is left standing. Featuring a star-studded lineup of judges, including Snoop Dog, Sarah Silverman, and Jason Sadekis, this is a battle you don't want to miss. The four-night event begins January 26th at 10-9 Central on Comedy Central. And don't miss the live finale on Sunday, January 29th at 10-9 Central to see who gets crowned the king or queen of cruelty. Going to the Ringer NBA show, I'm Chris Varnan.

Joining me as he does every Tuesday is Kevin O'Connor from the Ringer. Kevin, what's going on, Chris? Well, we have officially, I believe, entered the dog days of the season because there are goofy results every night, and not the least of which was last night, where for the first time and forever, three teams of the winning percentage of 70% or higher, all lost to teams of the losing records.

The Warriors lost to the heat, the rockets lost to the bucks, the calves lost to the pelicans. So it just kind of feels like you got a lot of teams as we're watching these games. It's hard to evaluate because it feels like a lot of teams are in the dog days, maybe with one eye towards the All-Star break. Yeah, it kind of does, Chris. It's just kind of a weird night in general, just with Dionne waiters going off and the Cavaliers losing to the Pelicans without Anthony Davis. Just a really, really odd night.

Well, and then you had so like performers last night. All right. So which of these is your favorite? Dion Waiters with 33 points against the Warriors with 24 points in the second half and six three-pointers. Drew Holiday and Terrence Jones, each with 22 first half points. Westbrook with a game winner and a triple double. or Joaquin Noah's missed free throw by seven feet. So my answer was going to be Terrence Jones and Drew Holiday,

but you mentioned Joach Noah's free throw. That was my favorite. But besides that, Territ's Jones going off and True Holiday going off without Anthony Davis is just crazy to me. Like Terrence Jones is a guy I loved when he entered his draft. And I thought he was going to be a major steal. And obviously, I've been wrong about that. He hasn't turned into a steel.

But it's nights like last night that are a reminder of just his insane potential. And it's almost disappointing in some ways that we don't see that more often from him. I mean, his block on LeBron was ridiculous. Well, and you know what's going to get lost in all of that? Kyrie Irving had 35 points and 5 threes in the second half. And it doesn't even like, that's not even a blip because it was because they lost. I mean, 35 points and a half is unbelievable. You know, it's funny. It's funny because, you know, on the ringer, we did our NBA duos thing.

I'd say last month or something like that. And we talked about how LeBron is kind of the point guard for the Cavaliers. And Irving is really the score. Even though he has the position label of point guard. And last night, we really saw that. I mean, Irving had four assists, I think. And he wasn't really the primary playmaker. That's LeBron. And after the game, LeBron's talking again about how the team needs another point. And he's right because these guys are playing 40 plus minutes a game against the Pelicans without Anthony Davis in the middle of January. I think LeBron is right about that. The question is, where do they find that point guard to really take some of the load off of both Irving and LeBron? Who would have guessed that they would miss Matthew Delavadova so much? Yeah, I know.

And LeBron mentioned like Kay Felder, the rookie point card, second round draft pick. It would be unfair to put those expectations on him too. All right. Here's another one that took place last night. So the Clippers won their 30th game in 46. They've been able to get by now without Chris Paul. Blake Griffin's soon to come back. And Austin Rivers had 27. To quote our boss, Bill Simmons, is Austin Rivers good?

I think he might be good. I think he might be good, Kevin. Sometimes he's good. No, I think he's good now. Yeah, I mean, he's averaging like 18. points per game since, since Christmas or something like that. I mean, he's been really good statistically. It's just he has some of those nights where he just, he just gives dud performances. But it's like the same thing I said earlier with Terrence Jones when Austin Rivers came out of the draft. Like,

he looked like a guy who could become a dynamic score like a dynamic scoring combo guard. And that's exactly what he is now for the Clippers. Granted, he's inconsistent and there are nights like his performances piss you off. Last night, he carried him to a. in really to a win really over the hawks i mean they won by 10 and i think that was in large part too to austin rivers scoring i'm rather impressed by the fact that they i thought you know the they've been able to get by without blake griffin but i thought uh i thought the paul injury was a bridge too far but they've been they've been fine oh yeah i mean i don't know if they'd necessarily been fine without chris paul because like overall if you look at their numbers when paul's been out they've still

been like pretty bad overall and that that's just this season and like the last three whenever he's missed games but i just want to know are they finally going to use blake griffin and like a more of a point guard role because without paul i just see it as a perfect opportunity for blake to be kind of the primary ball handler i mean he's he's one of the best ball handling playmaking big men we've seen in many many years in the NBA so if if you're worried about him you know health wise, have him handle the ball a little bit more and take on more of a playmaking role and less I think of like a low post interior rim running, dunking, scoring role. I just think the evolution of Blake Griffin should be something where he turns more into the playmaker that I know he

has the capabilities of being. And I just want to know if they're going to do that or not because I think that's what could really set them on a different level, especially come playoff time. If they were to stagger the minutes between Blake and Paul, that way, when Paul goes to the bench, you have Blake serving as the playmaker when Paul's on the floor. I just think that's something they need to at least try because they need to do something to get over the hump. Because I don't think they have enough playing the way they do as is. Well, it's interesting because a lot of times you do have to be forced into that. I don't know if that happens.

Your idea is good because I don't know if that happens if Paul's, it doesn't happen if Paul's on the court. Right. He is a ball-dominating guy. But if you were forced to, right, find some other playmaking, the Grizzlies went through it when Mike Conley went out. They ran all their offense through Marcusal. Years ago when you had all of those injuries, you know, many times you would see the bulls running it through Joachim Noah.

And so it almost like it needs to be forced upon you, but it's not a bad idea, right? If that's the next evolution of Blake Griffin. And just going back to what I said, when I said, Fine. I just mean, I thought they would be miserable without Chris Paul. Like unable to win a game, much less win, you know, a game by double digits over in Atlanta team who's a top four seed in the East. You know, the thing with Blake, I mean, I wrote an article back in August. It was actually the first article I had on the ringer. It's called something along the lines of like, does Blake Griffin have another gear?

And that's kind of what I went into is it alluded to what you said. Like, they're not going to take the ball out of Chris Paul's hands. course. He's one of the greatest point guards ever. And he's definitely one of the greatest passing point guards ever. So the way to do it, I think, is just by tweaking the rotations. Instead of, instead of having Paul and Blake on the floor almost nearly the entire time together, just have Blake have stretches of minutes where he's on without Paul and he handles the ball. And maybe it wouldn't work. It's possible that it would be a disaster, right? But I think there's at least a possibility that that tweak could really just set them, I think maybe to a higher level,

just because Blake has more than he can be. I mean, he's already a superstar. I just think there's more. I think like if he were in a situation where he handled the ball more, we'd see him average like eight assists per game. I think he's totally capable of doing a little more in a playmaking role. I just really thought that they would drop down and maybe be, you know, a six, seven or eight and then if you got paul back after the six to eight weeks you know that that sets you up where they would be an absolute nightmare first round matchup for either houston or san antonio or the warriors right if they were to drop to one of those six seven or eight slots but they're kind of holding serve right now and they're not having the precipitous drop at least so far since losing

chris paul i mean as it stands right now there's still a home court advantage team a game up on Utah, which is pretty good. And hell, they're eight and two in their last 10 games. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, that's going to be the fascinating thing to see. I mean, are they going to drop at all and how far are they going to drop? Because I think you're right. Like, that would be a scary matchup for one of those teams.

But at the same time, I guess so with a thunder, right? And so with the Grizzlies. The top seven in the West is really, really, really good. And how about this? If we just take a snapshot right now, it's the Denver Nuggets that are a player. off team right now. It's wild. It's wild.

And then like the Lakers with the worst record in the West are still only like four and a half games behind them. It's crazy. Yeah. The West is completely bunched up. And in fact, you know, there's a bunch of teams kind of within range, I suppose, in the Eastern Conference, except for the one that has separated themselves completely at this point is the Brooklyn Nets.

They are the only one that have separated themselves literally. from everybody else in the league. What are they now? I think they have... They're nine and 35. They're five games different than the Lakers, but I think they're set. They have seven fewer wins or something along those lines. That's just, that's amazing to me. And I think that Jeremy Lynn injury for them, I think he's out for another three to five

weeks of the hamstring injury. That's bad for them because Jeremy Lynn was having a good year at the start of the season. Once he comes back, maybe they'll be a little bit better, but I feel so bad for that organization and the fan base. Speaking of the dog days and I think maybe this is the lesson right now over the course of these last couple of weeks or maybe even this week and two weeks going forward, that this may be the worst possible time to make sweeping judgments or evaluations on any of these teams. Because just I mean, listen, we have seen over the course of the last what, five days, we just saw the Pelicans without Anthony Davis

knock off the cabs, right? The same Pelicans team that got almost 150 hung on them by that Brooklyn Nets team. So, I mean, like, just bizarre stuff is going on every single night. And it's just impossible to figure out, right? So if you say, geez, the Nets just hung almost 150 on the Pelicans, you'd be like, the Pelicans suck. They're dead in the water, whatever.

And then you watch them last night and they beat the calves and it's like, hey, maybe they can be a playoff team, right? So what are they? I don't know. I think I'm just going to go ahead and decide. I'm not making sweeping judgments or evaluations for a little while here. I think you hit the nail on the head there, Chris. And in a sense that the Pelicans, the last two games, it's just a great example of don't fall victim to recency bias.

Just don't. Just don't allow yourself to because things can change so, so quickly in the NBA. And after last night's game, I don't think any Pelicans fan should be saying, yeah, like, we could really compete in the playoffs. It's like, well, it was kind of just an odd night in general. So you got to stay level. And I think it's kind of a cliche when coaches say, you know, you can't get too high or too low. But it's really true. When it comes to your favorite basketball teams or your least favorite teams, can't make sweeping judgments.

All right. Let's get to your Isaiah Thomas interview. I loved this. both the podcast and the article. I'm a huge fan of Isaiah Thomas, and I love the whole story, right? Being drafted 60th, a couple different teams don't believe in him.

Clearly, you brought up that they brought in veteran after veteran after all kinds, all manner of guys with Sacramento and then moved on. And then the sons, you know, they had this group of Dragich and Thomas and Bledsoe, and they made a choice and they decided to move off of Isaiah Thomas. And I don't think anybody, the way could have foreseen this, that Isaiah Thomas would become one of the best players in the NBA,

and right now the best fourth quarter scorer in the NBA. So, first of all, just being around him, sitting across from him doing that interview, when you left the arena, the podcast recorded, you know you're going to write the article. What stuck with you the most after talking to him? So you said how nobody saw him becoming the best player, you know, the best fourth quarter squatter, the point card that he's become, except for Isaiah Thomas himself. Right. I think he's always had that belief in himself.

And that's what kind of strikes me the most, Chris. Just that's kind of what I wanted to go for with the podcast is this isn't just about Isaiah Thomas. It's not just about basketball. It's really life advice in some ways. And just about the mindset he has. the confidence in himself as a person to be able to have the work ethic that he has. I think he's a perfect example of somebody who's beaten the odds,

beaten, surpassed every expectation anybody set for him, but he's still striving for the expectations that he has for himself. I just think, I look at him as an example of just someone who's worked their ass off to become the player he is. And I don't, I don't want to talk about his height in the article. But, and I didn't even ask him about his height in the interview because it's like so overdone. But like 5'9, 60th pick in the draft turn into a 29 point per game score in the NBA and a potential MVP candidate. That is just an incredible, incredible story.

And I can't talk about him enough, really. I love watching Isaiah Thomas. And it's really cool to see him turn into the player he is. I went back. So one of my dear friends of Sunny Vicaro who ran the ABCD camp and all of the big camps in the summer forever, right? And I recall asking him about Isaiah Thomas because Isaiah Thomas was not some big time highly recruited guy at the time in high school, as you can imagine. But there was a guy named Alonzo Weatherby who runs the AAU stuff or ran AAU out of Atlanta. And he had seen, he knew Isaiah Thomas from summer, basketball. And so he called Sonny Vicaro and he said, hey, you've got to put this kid, this kid needs to be at camp. And you know what the request was? The request was he wanted to be on O.J. Mayo's team. He was a big fan of O.J. Mayo. And so Sonny put him on the team with O.J. Mayo and Bill Walker and these like high school stars, right? And Isaiah Thomas went there and

totally showed out. And everybody was like, whoa, who is this? kid. And then the next year, O.J. Mayo went back to Sunny and said, Sunny, I'm coming to camp. I want that Thomas kid on my team again. And so he put him on the team again. And you got to remember, right? Like, so this is one of those where if you're going to that camp, every college coach and everybody in the free world is there to watch O.J. Mayo and Bill Walker, right? And then they're seeing Isaiah Thomas. And though I thought back to that when he is explaining to you, all I ever one is an opportunity and once I get that opportunity, I'll capitalize on it. Because he said that when he was talking about the draft, right?

You just got to give me a shot. And if you give me a shot, I'll make the most of it. And that goes all the way back to when he was an afterthought for summer basketball. And he gets a shot and he gets on a big stage because he's playing on OJ Mayo's team. And he made the most of it way back when. I mean, he's been doing this since he was in high school, it seems. It's really amazing. I didn't know that story actually, Chris.

That's pretty cool. Crazy, right? It gets back to just his mindset, really. It's the same thing. Like, he's a perfect example of somebody who's prepared himself for a situation when he receives an opportunity. Sometimes that opportunity doesn't come, but a lot of the time it does if you put yourself out there. And he's taking advantage of it every time. And there's a quote from him that he said Jason Terry said, it was.

opportunity doesn't go away it goes to somebody else and I think that's very true I mean we see time and time again in the NBA a player will receive a chance like Anthony Bennett this year with the Nets they gave him another opportunity and it's just a miss opportunity now that doesn't mean Bennett this it doesn't mean Bennett it's been it's fault but the opportunity was there again and and he didn't take advantage of it see that time and time again in all the sports really. Partially. It's a good quote.

That's tough. That is a good quote, but it pales in comparison to by far the best quote in the entire podcast. For those of you that haven't heard it, go to our Ringer NBA show feed, which is Kevin Garnett telling him, you have big balls follow them. Which I have never heard. I mean, somebody needs to make a T-shirt, follow your balls, which is maybe the greatest follow your balls

yeah so one of the comments is on the ringer dot com Aaron Patterson shout out Aaron he commented this is the motivational poster I never knew I needed and I totally feel the same way like when Isaiah said that I was thinking to myself

did I hear him right follow your balls like I was I really wasn't sure if I was just misherring things like maybe he said follow your goals or something I thought I was just hearing things, but like listening back, it's like, yeah, he said follow your, you have big balls, follow those.

Just, it's funny. That, you know that's KG. Like, that is, that is KG. You have big balls follow them. Such sage advice from a first ballot hall of famer. You know, it's one of those things that it just makes sense. Like, you hear it and you get it. It's what, yeah.

And then, and then as you're driving home, right, that you've had this, you've had this discussion with somebody that you idolize. and then you get back in your car and you're driving home and you're thinking about all the things, all the wisdom he gave you. And the thing that sticks with you is, I need to follow my balls. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about with a whole long car right home. It is preposterous. Follow my balls. That is preposterous.

Maybe the most ridiculous advice I've ever heard in my life. But it makes sense. It serves him well. It's obviously served him. well. Hey, here's the thing that stood out to me the most. After, you know, so, so I read the article and I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about Sacramento giving up on him. I'm thinking about the sons giving up on him. I'm thinking about him being one of the great players in the NBA right now. Players all voted him, actually. I believe if I'm not mistaken, both players and

media, the fans voted Kyrie. But if I'm not mistaken, both the player voting had Isaiah Thomas is one of the starters and the media voting had Isaiah Thomas as one of the starters for the All-Star game this year. So everybody's extremely high on him right now. Yeah, in fact, he was number one on the media votes to start the All-Star game. And so fan voting got Kyrie in, but both players and media chose Isaiah Thomas. So anyway, I'm thinking about this. And one of the things is it's year, what is it? Is this six for him? Is this year six? Yes.

Okay. And you've made this huge leap. So last week you had written this article and we had this long conversation about Jamal Murray and Buddy Healed. And we said if you would have evaluated after one month, you'd feel maybe differently than you do after the next month. And then we said this is the peril of evaluation and that sometimes you just got to wait. I was struck.

When I thought about him, it used to be, or it felt this way, that after two or three years in the league, you had a pretty good gauge on what a guy is, right? Wouldn't you say? It used to feel that way, at least. And I am continually amazed that that's just not so anymore. Now, just hear me out. You have, Steph Curry, his third year in the league, he only played 26 games, right? he had the ankle stuff, but he averaged 15 points a game in those 26 games. And then his fourth year, he made the uptick to 23 points per game, and then the fifth

year, 24, and then the sixth year of his career, he was an MVP, and he averaged 24 a game, and then, of course, we had last season where he averaged 30, okay? You have, and it was his fifth year, I believe, the first time he made an All-Star team. Kemble Walker, look now. Sixth year, radically different player than we would have thought of. Isaiah Thomas, I guess this is fifth year. Kyle Lowry, he was in his ninth season before he made an all-star team. And then, like, I used to feel like the example was Chaunty Billups, who, that's a real outlier, right?

It was nine seasons in before he became really considered one of the best players in the NBA. Steve Nash was one of them, right? six years in before he makes an all-star team. I think maybe the lesson here is especially with the guys that are either point guards or dominant ball handlers, like it's frustrating, but you really don't know sometimes. They don't become the best of the best until five, six years into their careers now. It seems like the norm.

Right. I mean, but it feels like the norm. Yeah, it does. It does. And I think all those examples you listed, especially like in regards to Isaiah Thomas. Some of these guys just, again, it takes the opportunity for them to, okay, first of all, it takes time.

They need to develop their skills at the NBA level, but it also takes opportunity for them to enable to take advantage of their own skills. And like so, let's look at the 2014 drafts, right? Dante Exum, Marcus Smart, Alfred Payton. I think we would all agree Marcus Smart is a stellar defensive player who has difficulty. he's scoring efficiently on offense, but he's a solid passer. Five years from now, Marcus Smart might not be the same guy that he is today. He might develop as a score. He could become possibly one of the better overall point guards in the league.

That's always possible. Dante Exum has had his ups and downs, and so has Alfred Payton. But that doesn't mean just because they're in their third year of their career, that they're not going to become great point guards sometime in the future, because those guys were drafted high for really good reasons. Those guys are all top 10 picks for good reason. And they all have the potential within them. It's just a matter of when do they develop it because every guy develops differently.

And B, will they get the opportunity when that time does come if they do develop it? And you just don't know. I mean, listen, I went through it. I freely admit I watched every game of Mike Connolly's career. If you would have asked me four years in, I would have told you it's absurd. He's never going to be top tier. Never. He's never even going to be, you know, I just didn't see it.

And truth be told, how about this? Conley and Lowry were on the same team together as young point guards. And who would have ever guessed, right? Like, I mean, I'm just saying, like with all of these things. And, of course, a couple different teams that Lowry's played for. A couple of different teams that Isaiah Thomas has played for. A couple different teams that Chauncey Billups played for once upon a time. Even Nash, you know, Dallas moved on from him.

And he went to Phoenix and became, because Thomas actually mentions him in the podcast as Nash as a guy that laid in his career, you know, became this two-time MVP. And so I just wonder if the world's changing now to where it's just so hard to, it's, it's so much harder seemingly than it was before to figure out, project what a guy is going to be in five or six years. Because at least on my end, with Curry, could you ever, I mean, I don't. think three years into his career and three years seems like a long time three years into the career no one could have ever imagined he would be one of the great players in NBA history and a two-time MVP and even Kemble Walker I think if you would have asked people two years about kembal walker or Isaiah Thomas never right like you never see this comment I wouldn't have yeah I mean well that I think that's the case for even like the big name players I mean

LeBron James wasn't LeBron James until he became LeBron James, right? But everybody knew, but you knew LeBron James was 15. Still, I know, I know, but still, like, he still didn't become that guy until he did, right? I mean, Carl Anthony Towns, even a number one pick, I think everybody looked at Towns is like a potentially great player. But I don't, but he still needs to become that guy to become that transcendent level superstar. Same thing with Joel Unbeed. Everybody talked over the years about how this guy is going to be the greatest big man at basketball, but now we're actually seeing it happening.

And I don't know if that's really any different than it was 30 years ago. I think there's always been players who develop at random rates. I just think in some ways we just have more of a self-awareness of it now because there's so much more information out there that we have an understanding that this is random oftentimes. Every player develops differently. I just, I don't know, though. But let me give you an example, right? I'll give an example right now.

It would be, and maybe this isn't a total equivalent, it would be like if I told you five to nine years from now, one of the best point guards in the NBA is going to be Tyos Jones. Like, that seems crazy, right? Doesn't it? Not really. It seems. I mean, it doesn't? I mean, like, it seems like it would be out of the norm because the evaluation of the, time of the draft, but because we have the understanding of just how random things can be,

it's always a possibility. I really, I personally, I like Tyos Jones. And I think he deserves more of it. I don't, I don't get why Tom Thibito is looking for a backup point guard. It's like, hello, Tyos Jones. He's right there. You have a great high IQ ball handling point card on your bench. He's screaming for an opportunity. So that's just me. But, I mean, I think the ability is there for him to be really good. But no, I know what you mean. Let's, It's like saying Wade Baldwin of the Grizzlies. He'll be the best point guard in basketball in 10 years. And maybe you don't know.

I don't think he will be. I really like his game, though. Or how about the guy in Cleveland that you mentioned earlier? Kay Felder, right? Kay Felder is kind of, he's like the Isaiah Thomas, right? Seriously. Yep. He's said before that like he's like, you know, kind of stolen moves from Isaiah Thomas.

I think he's incorporated his. Isaiah has like this little half spin, a shoulder hesitation move that he uses. And I've seen Kay Felder used that in college. and I think last year in the Cerman League a handful of times. So, I mean, look, that's what these players need to do. Like, Kate Felder, he's 5'8 or 5 foot 9. He needs to look at someone like, I say, Thomas, and kind of model his game a little bit after him.

All right, Kevin, I'm going to ask you about mentioning Carmelo Anthony in your article next. But first, I want to remind everybody, today's episode of the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Dunkin' Donuts. Upgrade your day with Dunkin' Donuts, D&D. Perks on the Dunkin' Donuts mobile app. There's a bunch of benefits with D.D. Perks. The first being you earn a free beverage just by enrolling. It also has on-the-go ordering so you can order ahead from your phone, speed past the line in the store and go. D.D. Perks members also enjoy special offers.

You can even choose to pay right from your phone with the Duncan app. D.D. Perks. Everyone deserves an upgrade. Download the Duncan app and enroll today. Speed past the line may not be possible at all locations. Visit dD.perks.com for terms and conditions. All right. Let me ask you about one of the things that you mentioned in passing in the article. which was that you need somebody to pair with Isaiah Thomas. Obviously, the presumption is, you know, Al Horford is not enough, right? There needs to be another guy alongside him.

That being said, some of the names like the Blake Griffins and the DeMarcus cousins are not available. So the reports go. You brought up Carmelo, which it seems like they are headed towards a breaking point there. and that it would not shock anybody if Carmelo waived a no trade and got moved somewhere. Do you think that that would be a good fit in Boston? If the triumphant was Isaiah Thomas, Carmelo, Anthony, and Al Horford, would we look at that then and go, hey, now, Cleveland better watch out?

It's really hard to assess that because I think Carmelo, I don't think he's a top 25 player anymore. We've had this debate a couple weeks ago when you called him outstanding. And I was like, hell no, he's not outstanding. And I don't think he is outstanding anymore. But with that said, he still has elite scoring ability. And that's what the Celtics need alongside Isaiah Thomas. Because if you go back and watch the last two playoff series against the hawks and the calves, Isaiah had five guys on him at certain points.

Like they would try to make every other player on the Celtics beat them besides Isaiah Thomas. And they obviously couldn't. The Celtics lost both playoffs series. So they need, granted, right now their primary weaknesses are rim protection and defense overall. And Carmelo doesn't help either of those areas. But the other weakness that hasn't manifested itself in the regular season, but May in the playoffs, is the need for a second go-to score. Isaiah Thomas is as incredible as he's been. No great player can do it by themselves.

LeBron can't, Michael Jordan, Ed, Scotty, Pippen, go down the line of the greatest players of all time. you need help and I wonder if maybe Carmelo isn't quite the Jimmy Butler Hall he's not quite the Paul George Hall that's what you really want if you're the Celtics but Carmelo is somebody who for I think a lesser price I think I think it's reasonable to assume that if Melo's moved then the Knicks aren't going to get a lot for him they'll get like solid good players and solid good prospects for that they're not going to get like the Nets pick or they're not going to get Jalen Brown. They're not going to get top assets. So if you assess that

and you assume that you can bring in a guy with elite scoring potential for a lesser price for two years left on his contracts, I think maybe that's the best approach potentially. But it's tough because Carmel is just a

ball hug and he doesn't defend and he's so reluctant to play the four. So I get hung up on that. It's really hard to say, but a big part of you're yourself on it. A big part of me thinks it's the best approach because it's it allows you to, if you're the Celtics, it allows you to maintain all your best assets and bring in a star score,

if he's willing to waive his no trade and if it would be a fair deal. I just think in some ways this approach gives them the best of both worlds. I think it would be interesting because I know, I know what you're saying about defense, but if I'm just thinking about the way my team looks out on the court, if I've got a horror in the back, and I've got Crowder on the wing next to Carmelo, and I've got a big-time defensive guard next to Isaiah, so I'm able to retain either smart or Bradley, right? And I don't have to, or, well, you probably have to give up one in order to get mellow, I would think.

Okay, but either way, they're both, they're both really good defenders, right? As long as I've got, if I'm figuring out the way the court works, if I've got a really good defensive guard. I've got a really good defensive wing in Crowder and then I've got Horford behind. I think the Mello thing fits. I do.

I think it fits. Yeah. You know? Because now you've got, you know, like you can make up for having Thomas and Mello out there. If your other three guys

are all good defenders, I think it'd be dynamite. I do. I'm higher on it than you are. How much do you, okay, I think everybody would agree that it doesn't put them on Cleveland

level, but I think it puts them ahead of Toronto, and how close do you think it puts them to Cleveland? If you have Mello within Brad Stevens system with all those surrounding pieces that you mentioned, like, how close are they to Cleveland? I think they could absolutely take them to the brink and have a chance at winning a series. If they had, if you put Carmelo on that team. I think so, too. I mean, I think you can see a game seven in Cleveland. I think you can see a game seven in Cleveland with that roster. I agree. I agree. I agree. and that that's where that's where I look at that and I'm like man would it would they in some ways would would they be better off like theoretically if if it's a fair trade like the one I outlined earlier

would they be better off going for that for Carmelo the older aging superstar rather than unloading everything on Jimmy Butler or Paul George who aren't available but if they were are in some ways I just wonder if the Carmelo approach if it were in the way I'm outlining if they that's better because it allows you to still retain your best assets. Like, because there's no guarantees. Let's say the Celtics got Paul George today. There's no guarantees that Paul George puts them over the top.

I mean, Paul George has never averaged over 25 points per game. We don't even know if he's, if he's that level of scorer. I think if this is the season he would do it, I'm surprised that he's not. I was expecting him to have a huge year this season. So Jimmy Butler, as great as he is, as outstanding as he is, he still has his times where he's inefficient. So those guys aren't necessarily the super, super, superstars top five level players we're talking about. But Carmelo Anthony isn't either, and we know what he is.

And if you're able to get him for a lesser price while still keeping your Netspicks or Jalen Brown, your future assets, I just think that sets you up for later, but also it increases your chances now. I agree with you, Kevin. And the reason is because you're in this, you've got a window here where you're going to get the best of Thomas and the best of Horford, right? Like, you're in this window. And so getting somebody young that you might get the best of in four or five years, I don't think behooves you. I think right now you've got to take advantage of the fact that you've got Thomas in his prime and Horford in his prime theoretically. And that's the other approach, Chris.

You mentioned, you know, you have to take advantage of that or you don't because the other side of it is they could always just tear it down and build for the year 2020 or 2021, like looking ahead. But I don't think they should. I think I think they're close. And if the right deal's there and maybe it's mellow, maybe it's not, I think they have to jump at that and really just go for it if they can maintain their future assets still. All right. Last thing, since we last spoke, the All-Star starters did come out. As I mentioned earlier, it was Kyrie Erie. and Damar de Rosen, who ended up being the starters in the back court.

I think you and I both thought, Thomas, obviously, there's arguments for Wall, there's arguments for Lowry. There's a lot of really good guards right now. But then everything kind of held serve, I think. You know, we kind of wanted Embed, but it ended up being Jimmy Butler, which I don't fight over. I mean, it's, you know, it's Janice, it's LeBron and it's Butler. And then you've got Kyrie Irving and Demar de Rosen. None of which I had a huge problem with.

I don't think you did either. The one that people had problems with was Curry starting, which I tweeted out last week. You know the NBA is in a good spot when people are bitching about a two-time reigning MVP starting the All-Star game. I mean, that just speaks to how amazing things are going right now. But Westbrook being, quote, snubbed off of that. And then I think everything else held serve. We thought it was going to be hardened. We thought it was going to be Durant Kauai and Anthony Davis.

So I know there was a lot made of like the voting and how they're going to get the starters in. But I mean, we're talking about like one thing that drew people's attention probably, right? Maybe two if we count de Rosen. I just think the whole process was dumb. I mean, why do they go by ranks for this? And not something like percentage of votes. I don't know how it would have worked out if they had done that. But I just think the whole process.

was just really elementary. I think they could have done a much better job at distributing the percent of votes to determine the starters. And I know that would be making it more complicated than it should be. But the same time, they did make it more complex in the first place by adding the media and player vote. So if you're going to do that, I just think there's so many better ways they could have done it. And not only that, it's like the players made a mockery of the whole process.

I mean, guys like Jason Terry got five votes. Courtney Lee got six votes Markief Morris got six votes Jo Keem Noah got five votes I mean Come on It's just it's silly And then like Chris Paul got a media vote It's like are you for real

There's like no I mean it's great as Chris Paul is There's literally not a single argument To be made that Paul deserves to start Over Westbrook or Hardin Or probably over Curry for that matter I would agree with you And so Though all the process

to quote Joe Lombie might have been goofy. In the end, I think it worked out. The Westbrook thing is the only thing that I'd go to war over. And I wouldn't go to war over that, honestly, because it's Curry. It's like so wide. Fine, it's Steph Curry. Everybody loves him. It's not like Curry's having a down seat.

I mean, a down compared to his 30 points again. I think he's still averaging like 25 points a game this year, right? Do you think here's, this just thought just came to mind just now? do you think it would make more sense to vote for or have how determine it however you want determine the 15 guys in the roster and then vote for the starters that way it's a smaller pool that you're allowed to vote for that way the players aren't allowed to to vote for Seth Curry or whatever no no no no I think you want to keep in order to get the the right team I think you want to keep the amount of people voted on

to a minimum. That's what I think. What if you narrow it down to like 30? 30 in each conference. Like that's the pool you're allowed to vote for the starters for. Oh, oh, you're saying, okay, so we just established. What if that were the case?

So you can't, you can't vote, like, in the case of Tony Allen voted for like, like the most ridiculous lineup, like Luke Babbitt. Like he just, oh my God. He did. He made a mockery of the entire thing. Yeah, so you can't do that. And I know I know we're making it like way more complicated and it should be But we have to remember that like for some players there's contract implications or bonus implications

With the CBA with all-star and all NBA and things like that I just think I mean it's not it's it's it's still just an exhibition game But you know I just wish that the process was a little bit right it does a day People can say oh it's just an exhibition it doesn't matter but it matters to their pocket Oh, you know that's that's the thing Okay. All right. Last thing.

What is the, what are you working on for the ringer? What you got next? I got something tomorrow on Otto Porter. The most efficient player in basketball. Otto Porter. Another guy where like last year, last year, this time, you would have thought, oh, Otto Porter, what a bust. Number three pick, bust.

But now this year you're looking at it. I mean, like, oh, could this guy be this year's Harrison Barnes and free agency and get that max? At least that's what I'm thinking. I think you get a ton of money. Kevin, you're the best. Thanks, brother. You too, Chris. Thank you.

All right. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you like what you're hearing, give us a rating and review on iTunes. And we'll talk to you on Thursday.