The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 69: NBA Twitter Beefs, Markelle Fultz, and Cavs Tryouts With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: February 3, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Markelle Fultz's potential to be the no. 1 overall pick (5:00), Lakers vs. Sixers tanking strategy (15:00), LeBron's open tryouts for the Cavs (26:00), the return of Dion Waiters (34:00), and their best personal NBA Twitter stories (39:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me today. Usually on Tuesdays, but this week on a Friday from the ringer.com, Kevin O'Connor. Kevin. Chris, what's going on? Hey, man. So you've had a fun week. I suppose you were down in Arizona.

I read your article about scouting Markle Fultz, the outstanding Washington prospect in person. How was Arizona? Yeah, Arizona was fun. Yeah, it was a good time. Markle Fultz didn't have his best game, but it was still good to see him in person. What's their arena? like? It's crowded like a good college stadium is.

There's people sitting in front of me doing a synchronized dance, which is kind of odd. One of the dudes is really into it, and the other two people there were just kind of copying him, like looking at them the whole time. That was odd. In terms of like college environment, is it great? Would you rank Arizona rather high? Yeah, it was great.

It was great. The band was great, too. Okay, so you go there to see Markle Fultz, who in most of the mic drafts. his number is the number one pick um did you leave the arena thinking i just watched the number one pick or was there now like seeping doubt yeah i mean if if you went there and you had no clue who markelle fultz was you and you watched the game you would think okay he's a good player but he might not be the number one pick because it really wasn't his best game but really seeing it seeing him play in person my biggest takeaway is just how much the situation is taking away from

him as a player. Like Washington plays two big men on the floor the majority of the time, and neither of those bigs can usually space the floor at all. So not only do the college rules naturally pack in the paint because they don't three second violations, short a three point line, but Lorenzo Ramar, Washington's head coach, puts two bigs out there who just stand in the paint and get full, getting Fultz's way. And we're talking about Fultz who's six foot four, long arms, he excellent at changing pace, but he has no space in the paint.

And it's so frustrating to watch because I feel like he should be way, way better than he actually has been already for the Huskies. Well, let's be honest. Their lack of success at Washington, given the amount of prospects they've had, is downright despicable. I mean, they just had two guys going the first round last year

and people were sitting at the draft going like, what the hell? That wouldn't even a tournament team. How did you not make the tournament? You had Marquise Chris and Deonté Murray. Well, it's going to be like that this year, too, with Mark L. Fultz. I mean, he could be, in my opinion, should be the number one pick and they might not even make the tournament.

And that's just crazy to me. It's mind-boggling. It used to be, like I remember way back when. It used to be when you were looking at draft picks. I would really hold that against them. I would look and I would go, all right, if the guy is so frigging good that why is his team not even in the tournament, right? And I remember doing this specifically with Paul George. Paul George wasn't even like a first or second team all whatever the hell it was whack or whatever right when he was playing and his team like was like a 500 team or worse when he was playing there and I'm like all right if this guy is so good how the hell is he how is it how the hell is his team not that good in a crappy conference and what you start to realize is you can't blame these kids for that because some of them are are in these just ridiculous situations where they do not get the most out of said draft prospect it kind of it just felt like reading the article I don't want to say you're making get excuses for the kid.

I guess there's like excuses or reasons. It felt like you were giving reasons as to why maybe you don't see the full onslaught of this kid, Mark Lofols. Yeah, and that's just the thing. It's basically, I looked up their stats on hooplens.com, and when they have two bigs in the floor who don't space the floor, they outscore teams by 0.2 points per 100 possessions with faults on the floor. but when you have Fultz playing with space with only one big who doesn't space the floor,

they outscore teams by 7.8s points for 100 possessions. So they're a really, really good team when they have Fultz on the floor with space. But they don't do that nearly as often as they do have the two bigs on the floor. And I just can't understand why their head coach Lorenzo Ramar doesn't bench one of those guys, take them out of the rotation, and actually increase your chances of winning by increasing the floor. spacing. Sure, you lose rebounding. Sure, you might lose some of your defense, but what you gain from Markell Fultz being able to get in the lane, draw files, score at the rim, just simply have room to be the star he can be. I just can't understand why you don't try that or do that more often,

and maybe they will at some point, but we're getting close towards the end of the season now, and so far he hasn't, and I don't see any reason to assume why he would. The reason I'm asking about this is obviously you wrote the article for the ringer.com which people can go check out on Mark L. Fultz's a perspective, number one draft pick. But also, you know, football's ended, so everybody's kind of paying attention more or so, at least I am. I've been watching more college basketball and especially like going out of my way to see these prospects. And so I've seen Malik Monk at Kentucky. I watched the kid, the point guard at NC State is unbelievable.

Dennis Smith, I saw him. So Dennis Smith saw Malik Monk. I've seen, you know, Lonzo Ball at UCLA. I mean, I'm trying to make the rounds and at least check out these guys on regular occasion. But as of today, even after seeing him in what was not a good game, you would still take Fultz 1 after seeing him in person this past week. And would you say he is worthy of maybe tanking for?

Is he that level of talent? So with Fultz, he's still definitely like number one for me. And the primary reasons why is because I, think you really need like a microscope to see his weaknesses, right? I mean, every player has weaknesses, but he doesn't have something that sticks out where you're like, okay, that could prevent him from being an all-star. I just think his ability to play on the ball or off the ball on the offensive end is super versatile. I think he's a good defender. I think he can get a little bit better, a little bit more engaged on the ball. But look, this is one thing I noticed really

watching him in person, he does a good job communicating defensively. And this is despite playing in a shitty situation, this is despite the fact that his team is losing games and losing games. And he's still actually expounding effort on the defensive end, both physically and verbally. And I think that's a good positive indicator for him, whereas last year with Ben Simmons at LSU, Ben Simmons is like, screw this. I'm not even going to bother. And I think it's a positive indicator for Fultz that he's still showing leadership qualities on that end of the floor. Never mind the fact that his offense is ridiculous. Never mind the fact that he has pace beyond his years.

His feel for the game is so good. That's why he's number one pick. But the other stuff that you see, I think that's what really separates him for me in those other categories. It's a weird deal because that was on a Sunday afternoon against Arizona and it was nationally televised so everybody got to see it. But, I mean, hell, half the time when you're playing for Washington, you're in like witness protection.

I mean, that Pac-12 TV contract is absurd, and especially that they play late and half the damn time. You don't know what channel they're on, and they're playing on that Pac-12 network, which you can't even get in my region of the country. You know, it's ridiculous, right? Like, he's one of those prospects. I felt this way when I was watching the Suns earlier this week, and, you know, there was a couple Marquise Chris plays, and I was like, Jesus, this guy is like, you want to talk about bounce. but, I mean, I probably got to see I could count on my hand the amount of times I ever saw Marquis Chris play in my life prior to playing for the Phoenix Suns. And so it's a tough thing to have to even check out guys at Washington anyway. What do you think about all this, Tate?

Tate Frazier, of course, does the Ringer U podcast teed up with Club Trillion, Mark Titus? You guys talk about prospects all the time. What do you think about all this? You think Fultz is going to go number one? I'm team Monk number one Team Monk Yeah he's been the number one pick

I tell you that the funniest was the Kentucky game the other night I've watched the Kentucky Georgia game This was Musburger's last game And they're at the end of the game You know the shot that they had to take to get it To overtime or whatever it was Yeah the shot the Malik Monk had to make to win the game Yeah

Okay so Billis is like What an unbelievable call by Calipari I'm like what the fuck The guy hit, the guy hit like a 27-footer, like a contested three-point with his foot on the line. And he like jumped, jump straight over the guy and trained it. And I was like, oh, yeah, great call by Cal Perry. I'm like, this guy just hit the hardest damn shot I've ever seen. Cal was just like, shoot it.

Right. I know, I know. These coaches get so much credit in college. It's unbelievable to witness. It's like anything, it's like if they, if a guy, makes a shot out of a timeout, you build a statue for the frigging college coach. Whereas, like, in the NBA, it's like you just, like, anytime Brad Stevens takes a time out, I expect them to score, like the next possession.

And that's true of many of the good coaches in the NBA, right? Like, there's just an expectation that if you take a time out, you're going to come out and have a play, and at the very least, you're going to get a really good shot. Where in college, like, that was like, he was like, an amazing call by Cal Perry. This guy. That Malik Monk. What do you think about him, Kevin? That guy is...

I mean, when he gets hot, there are those moments where you watch, like, that Georgia game. He did it earlier this year. What was it? The UCLA game. And he looks totally unstoppable. Oh, yeah, that's what it was. Carolina. I've really, really grown to love Monk just because of the fact that there's not a lot of guys who have a super elite shooting ability and B, super elite athleticism.

That combination is really rare. and when Tate tweeted that out, I responded to him saying that, and I added this. It's like, I think he's a little bit better of a passer and a little bit better of a playmaker than he gets credit for. Everybody talks about him as like an undersized two guard, which is true. He is. But I think he can play a little bit more point than he gets credit for. And if he had the opportunity, like if Fox got hurt, which we hope he doesn't, but if he did and the opportunity were there for Monk to take on more of a playmaking role, I think we could see more of that from him,

which would further increase Tate's reasoning for him being the number one pick. Well, no, that did just happen in the Georgia game. Fox had to sit it out. So that's when the kid went, that's when Monk went crazy. So to your point, it does happen, right? When he was given more opportunity or more was put on his shoulders, he delivered big time. But it's funny, I've talked to a couple NBA scouts that have come through town.

And when I've brought up Malik Monk, because when I've watched him, I'm just been like, wow, this guy's unbelievable. almost all of them have said they like the Fox kid better, which I was a little surprised by. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Yeah. That they like Fox. That they like Fox better. So anyways. Yeah, huh?

Oh, really? You think that's what it is. I think Tate's right. I think that's probably what it is. Like seeing them in person so much, you just see the speed and it's intoxicating. But sometimes it's right there in front of you with Monk. Just that shooting ability, man. That's game-changing stuff. Yeah. Well, one of the things, that an NBA scout will typically say is that when you watch college basketball speed translates and when you watch European basketball size translates because that's the hardest thing about

scouting the euros is that it's just not the speed of the NBA at all and they play a totally different style of play but that you can't that's the thing that is tough to gauge when you're when you're evaluating guys overseas so and I always that's kind of stuck with me right the whole idea, and I think it makes sense. Speed translates from college, size translates from overseas players. But yeah, maybe that's true about Fox. I don't know. I mean, listen, they're awesome.

The kid's awesome, too. It's not like you're having to, it's not like we're debating one guy, one guy with, like, serious flaws. They're all fantastic. And I do think, you know, as we, as we, as we wrap this back around to how it affects the NBA, there's a lot of people listening whose teams are going to have tried draft picks. you could have all the way to pick number 10 this year, I think, for sure. Because some of these mocks have like Monk going like 8 to 10. You could have all the way to the 10th pick and get a possible All-Star.

Like really. And that is extremely uncommon. Yes, yes, very, very uncommon. This year at the top of the draft, Chris, is like really, really deep. And I think that's why we're not seeing too many teams tank because they probably feel like with, you know, the fourth or fifth pick, you can still get a potential all-star, all-NBA level player there because there's going to be teams, like you mentioned Monk, right? There might be a team who has Monk eighth on their board and they end up with the eighth pick

and he's the top guy. But there might be another team who has Monk second on their board and they have the eighth pick and he might be available. So it's like it all depends on your own independent team evaluation of these guys. And I think this year, after maybe one, two, three, those guys are going to be changed in different types of orders, depending on team preferences, team need, team philosophy, team system. A lot of different factors will determine that. Okay, in reference to that you wrote earlier in the week about the Sixers process and about how the Lakers need to follow that. It's all fine a day.

See, the Lakers right now, they're six out. There's six games back out of the playoff race. And I know you had the quote in there from Luke Walton, you know, we don't want to. there is some sentiment that you don't want to build a losing culture or the idea that you are you're not going out there and giving it your max effort every single night yada yada yada but your idea is okay you can say that publicly but in the end the wisest move for the lakers to pull off is to not try to really make the playoffs this year um that being said given the given the statement you just made that like you don't have to have the number one pick or

top three pick in order to get somebody good. Their situation's a little different, right, because they have to give up a pick if they don't get something really high. So that's why for them in particular, you would say, okay, that doesn't necessarily apply. It does matter what pick they get. So this is foolishness to try to give it everything you got every single night and win as many games as you can. Yeah.

So basically, one of the responses I got to that was like they're the second worst team in the league they're the third worst team in the league, what more can they do to try to tank? And it's like, you're right, they've been absolutely horrific. The point is, is that they need to continue being horrific. That's the point. They don't, they should not try to try to get better. They need to continue being horrific because if, look, there are two wins behind the Sons and the loss column for the second worst record. And they're only two games, two games ahead of the Dallas Mavericks for the ninth worst record. So their margin for error right now isn't too far off from falling way out of having a realistic chance of the number, a top three pick. And that's what

they need. If they need a top three pick, because if they don't have a top three pick, it gets sent to the Sixers. And if it does get sent to the Sixers, then they also lose their 2019 pick. So to Orlando because of the Dwight Howard trade from 2012. So they lose two first round draft picks if they don't get a top three pick this year. But if they do keep their top three pick this year, they only send next year's first round pick to the Sixers. So this isn't just about this draft. It's about the 2019 draft. It's about retaining assets for future seasons. That's what it's really about. And if they lose that pick, I think it really hinders their chances of getting a quick rebuild or even a slow rebuild over the next coming seasons.

Well, it is interesting because a lot of these teams, what they'll do, and even the Lakers, you know, you look at their, quote, plan, and then you see, you know, the way it lines up and you're like, wait, what the hell? So, like, you know, if you're doing what you're saying, I would feel more comfortable about saying, hey, yeah, the Lakers would probably do that. Except they went out in the offseason and signed Timothy Mosgolf and Lou Al-Dang to those contracts. and you're like, okay, what are you doing here? Right?

Are you trying to be, you know, it's kind of like the kings, right? Just decide what you're going to do. And then instead they go and they sign Matt Barnes and they play these guys a lot of minutes and they've got a bunch of, you know, bringing Ty Lawson. They've got veterans on their team. So like, which are you trying to do? Are you trying to be good and trying to, you know, get to the playoffs? Or are you resigned to the fact that you're not going to be real good and it would be

be be bad? Like, I don't know, like to have a really bad record. It's like there's no acceptance of that and you're kind of stuck between feelings. Do we want to try to make a playoff push and win as many games? Or are we going to play the game where we're trying to get high draft picks for a little bit here? I don't get those signings. I mean, I understand bringing in veterans, but it's kind of just the money and the length of those deals that just baffled me at the time and still does now. I mean, Lou All dang stinks now.

And Mosgoff is good. He's a solid center. But man, the length of that deal, when you got Zubots coming up and you want to get Zubots minutes, I just, I just questioned the length of those contracts. So what do they want to do? Well, Luke Walton says they don't believe in tanking. They want to do this the right way because the so-called basketball gods are going to come back and get you in the long run.

It's nonsense to me. It's like the best thing for your franchise is to end up with a top three pick. And at the moment, they have a 47. percent chance if the lottery were held today of getting a top three pick. But if they just win, if they win a couple more games and they slip down the standings, that chance drops down quick to 20 percent to 10 percent. And it's so, so important for them that they keep that pick. And if you're the Sixers, if you are the Philadelphia 76ers, you are praying that they win some more games because they could end up with two top five picks in this draft, which is crazy to me that they could get more

assets. So, can thank Sam Hinky for that. You brought up that Zubak kid, Zubach, whatever you call it, their draft pick from last year. I saw him actually in person in a D-League game earlier this year, and he's good, and he can really pass, and he's only 19 years old. And you take him, Clarkson, Ingram, Larry Nance, Jr., Randall, Russell. I mean, they've got a, they've got, like, I think a lot going towards a bunch of good eight-man rotation guys that are going to develop over. time. Yeah, they get a lot of talent. I like the guys that they've drafted. I like what they, I like what they have. But the thing is, you know, Ingram, Russell, as good as those guys are,

are they the guy? I'm talking about, are they that cornerstone? I think Ingram could be. I think there's a chance he could be, but I'm not 100% certain that he actually is. Whereas in this draft, I think there could be a couple of those guys. I mean, honestly, Honestly, I like most of the top guys in this draft more than I did Ingram and Simmons last year. So I just feel like this is just a stronger draft, a stronger chance that you get that guy. And that's what you really need. You look at how Joel Ambien's return changed everything for the Sixers. The Lakers, if they were able to get a guy like that, it could do the same thing.

It's not even just about the draft. It's about having the assets. You mentioned all the young talent they have. Those guys they can keep or they can always flip those guys. in a potential trade for a star for one becomes available too. All right, we've got to talk about the headlines of the week, not the least of which is All-Star Saturday Night was, and the participants was announced, and there was a trade going on yesterday.

We'll do that after these words. Today's ringer NBA show brought to you by Draft. If you're playing fantasy for money and not spending hours a day doing it, you should absolutely be playing on Draft. Draft is a simple daily fantasy app where you can do snake drafts just like the ones you do at the beginning of your season long league. They last for one night and they only take minutes to complete. On Draft, you can play for free or better yet, play for money.

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What does this trade mean? What did it signal when you read it? signal to me that the bucks are totally cool with admitting they made a mistake. I mean, trading Michael Carter-Williams, getting rid of Miles Plumley, they're not afraid of getting rid of guys that kind of ended up being mistakes. And I think that's a good thing for them that they did that, because suddenly, now they have potential flexibility within the cap over the next couple seasons, because Pumley had a long-term 12 million annual deal.

And now they could have a chance, potentially. of making a little bit of noise in free agency. And I know Milwaukee isn't a traditional free agent destination because who wants to go to Milwaukee? But who wouldn't want to play with Yonis Anthony Nakumpo? Who wouldn't want to play with Javari Parker? Who wouldn't want to play with Chris Middleton? Those guys all in the prime of their careers over the next couple of years?

Why wouldn't you want to play with those guys? And suddenly, they could be a team that it looks a little bit appealing to those potential free agents, even if it's not a superstar level player, but like the Tier 2, Tier 3 level guys. So I think that's what this is about. It's a forward-thinking deal for the Bucks, and it's about truly building for that run in 2018-2019. Okay, so Miles Plumley, was Jason Kidd not playing him

because out of foolishness and he was making a mistake, or does Miles Plumley legitimately suck? Because, I mean, listen, he only played 32 games, only started 12, and he averaged less than three points. I don't know. I don't know if he sucks. It's just, I just didn't love the fit in the first place. They had so many bigs.

They were already trying to get rid of Greg Monroe, and then they bring in Miles Pumley for a long-term contract. I don't think it said he stinks. I think he, if anything, is a little bit underutilized. And maybe Charlotte sees that too. Maybe Charlotte looks at him and says, okay, we can get out of him what Milwaukee thought they were going to get. Is he a fit there? I mean, I don't love the fit in Charlotte either, really. I know.

But I don't know exactly what their plan is, right? I think you could look at that and say, well, they might have brought him in for good reason, but at the same time, they still have Cody Zeller, who's the starter. Frank Kempinski's deserving of minutes too. Marvin Williams plays the four a lot. So I think he'll get more time than he did in Milwaukee, but we will see how his role is. Well, and Hawls isn't going to do anything, and Hibbert's going to fall off the roster after this year. So it's kind of like with Hibbert, if he can help you good, right?

And there might be if you could potentially get to the playoffs, maybe there's a scenario where he can help you. If he doesn't, it's $5 million and he's gone after the year, right? So at least you ain't locked into it long term. Oh, yeah. And I wonder how much of this is just about shaking it up because they've been so bad. They've been horrible.

Yeah, they're a big disappointment. It's funny, the throwaway line and all that trade was to make room for the roster, the bucks waved Steve Novak, and I was like, huh, who knew? Shout out to Steve Novak for hanging on so long. I had no idea. Did you know Steve Novak was still around? I forgot he was at the end of the bench, to be honest. Yeah, I was like, yeah, shout out.

How about Steve Novak? I went and pulled him up 10 years, 10 years experience Steve Novak. The dude can shoot. With the 1.3 P.E.R. That's a tough spot. 1.3. That's hard to pull off. the 1.3 P.E.R.

43% from three, though. He can still stroke it? Yeah, yeah, he can. Well, actually, no, this year he's shooting only 16.7%. But over his career, 43%. LeBron will probably bitch about not having him. That's what he's going to add. They added Kyle Corver, now they're going to add Steve Novak.

There, right? Speaking of, let me just mention this real quick, they had that workout, and it was reported that there, were other that Mario Chalmers, Lance Stevenson, etc. were working out. And I guess ESPN had a story that a source said Jordan Farmer was the best of the workout participants. So how happy is LeBron James going to be if old Griff, David Griffin, says, all right, LeBron, I got you your playmaker. Here's Jordan Farmer, who, by the way, the Grizzlies signed last year,

and he played and started in the friggin playoffs. He had gotten cut by Maccabi Tel Aviv. Okay? He had. I'm dead serious. He was playing in Israel. And then he ended up playing for the Grizzies at the end of the season. Yeager brought him in a couple times this year in Sacramento.

And so, listen, that workout, it must have been a hell of a workout if Farmer came out at the best. And so finally, I think the calves are going to appease LeBron James, don't you think? Hey, LeBron, we got you Jordan Farmore. Hey, man, Farmer is a two-time champion with the Lakers. Oh, Jesus Christ. You never know. But yeah, I have a feeling what this workout actually was, was just planning for in the event they don't get a guy through trade.

Like Jemir Nelson from the Nuggets, I think he would be the ideal guy that they would take on using their trade exception. So if they can't get a guy through trade, whoever it is, doesn't really matter, someone better than Hyrick or Chalmers or Stevenson or Farmar, then maybe they fall back on one of these guys who they already were, out in early February and have some prior knowledge with who they think might be the best fit. Well, I'm just telling you this.

If Farmer was the best of that workout, that means Chalmers is not close to coming back from the Achilles. He is a shell of former self because Chalmers is way better, way better than Farmer. And so that just means he's not close from coming back from the Achilles, which is a hard, hard injury to come back from. And the other thing is, you know, the guy that's still kind of hanging out there. coming back from a knee injury is Jared Jack, who I think has, you know, he's one of those guys, everybody likes Jared Jack, like all the guys in the league. They all really like Jarrett Jack. And so maybe his name pops up at some point for somebody, including Cleveland.

Yeah, he's got a torn ACL. Yeah, and he's 33 years old, so that's why, right? You're 33 coming off in ACL. That's tough. Same thing with, you know. He was signed by the Hawks this summer, and then he was waived due to the injury, because he's unable to practice due to the torn right knee legaments. So he still wasn't recovered as of October.

So who knows what level he's at now in February, just a couple months later. We're about a year or a year ago. All right, let me ask you about some of the stories that have been going on around at the NBA. And it's funny. Last week we said, I told you, I said, I'm not going to make any sweeping judgments. I'm going to try to suspend my declarations or hot takes in this part of the season because there's just so much goofy stuff going on. And going along those lines,

Miami's 9 and 1 in their last 10, Kevin, and are three games out of the 8 seed. And Dallas is 7 and 3 in their last 10. They've won three in a row. And Dallas is 2.5 out of the 8 seed. So let's wrap this back around to the discussion of what teams should be doing. And you're seeing the stretch that there's always a couple of teams that take really, advantage of this, you know, dog days. And those are the big stories right now. I mean, Miami with

the 9 and 1 in their last 10. And then Dallas, when you see those scores come across the bottom line, whether it is. And Dallas has got wins over like Oklahoma City and Cleveland. And, I mean, they got real wins. Same with Miami. When you see those come across the bottom line, you're like, wow, the meet won again or wow, Dallas won again. What do we make of that? And what do we make of the idea that Miami is now three games out of the eighth seed? Dallas is two and a half out of the eight seed. And those teams, like, they'll have a legitimate shot at getting a playoff spot if they keep playing well. It's crazy.

It really is. And it reminds me of early in the year when Mark Cuban was asked about tanking. And he's like, no, we're trying to win games. We're not going to tank until, like, game 70 or 75, right? And we're kind of seeing why they did buy. their time and they were willing to let Dirk get back. Wesley Matthews is starting to look like Wesley Matthews. I mean, he looks awesome. I mean, he's, he's killing over this stretch for the Mavericks. And Seth Curry is playing really, really well. I think he had a great month in January. I think he

shot near 45% from three. He was ridiculous. And they're getting contributions from a lot of different guys on their bench, too. So they're getting contributions from a bunch of different guys. and I think we're kind of seeing the same exact thing with the Miami Heat. Johnson is playing really well for them. Drogich is really stepping his game up. And of course, Dion Waiters, dude. Dion Waders is killing it. He's amazing.

I know those people that had their reserve spot on Waiters Island, if they didn't sell off their stock, man, we are at the pinnacle of Waiters Island. You know, A, you know what's hilarious as hell, right? is that you remember when we joked and we said, hey, look, the top three guys that we're talking about for the MVP are all we're all on the same team together at one point. Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, and James Harden, right? And we joked, we were like, hey, can you believe this shit?

And then I made the joke, yeah, just wait till Reggie Jackson is in the mix. Hold on, hold the phone. Wait till, what if we look back? And we're talking about Dionne Waiters and Reggie Jackson. Jackson? What if this guy in Oklahoma City is like literally the king of the draft? And the third guy that played, we just have this like ongoing carousel of whoever the third guy that played with Durant and Westbrook was actually amazing and we just never really noticed that he was amazing. And so Reggie Jackson and Dion Waiters are up next.

It's Dion Waders, dude. Unbelievable. He really has been ridiculous. And like, You know, he looks more like the dude that I think they thought, I think Cleveland thought they were drafting out of Syracuse. He was like, I thought he was great. I thought he was going to be a really, really good player. Oh, that's right. That's right. So my theory wouldn't work because they didn't draft him in Oklahoma City. Yeah, it works.

He played a year and a half there. He did. He did. It works. He still was the third guy for Durant and Westbrook. He was the Harding Replacement. Yeah. It works.

Yeah. Well, Kevin Martin was too. Yeah. A little later in his career, so maybe it didn't work for that. But there's certainly a young guy that was alongside those two. But anyway, I mean, Pat Riley went on the radio in Miami and it was like, you know, he kind of did the whole, hey, have patience with us. You know, this is going to be a process to, you know, figure this out. Once the Bosch stuff happened and everything, there was kind of this, what's the word, acceptance that, okay, this isn't going to be our year. But now, like, with all these teams, especially like when you were talking about the Bucks stinking

and some of these teams really cramping the bed in the east, you can look up and Miami's got a chance at making the frigging playoffs. I mean, hell, if they could make the playoffs, we'd get the LeBron in Miami round one, waiters versus LeBron. You know, it's funny. You mentioned Pat Riley's comments. On the Ringer, we had an article in November, and the title of it is, it's time for these NBA. teams to bottom out. And in the photo that we used, it has Pat Riley and Mark Cuban on it. And I made the case within that article that like, hey, these teams need to tank. And it's not just about the draft from Miami, it's about getting like that top asset because they could put together a package

and potentially be in contention for one of those star players who potentially becomes available. I mean, that's really what it's about for me. And I wonder if by winning all these games, that's what they really take themselves out of. Because in my opinion, what Pat Raleigh wants is he wants that quick, fast rebuild. He wants to be able to trade for a star player and then bring in a star free agent and then suddenly have a contending team, just like he did with LeBron a couple years ago. But you might not have the opportunity to do that quite as much if you have the 10th pick, right? I think it's still a valuable asset, but you wouldn't be able to get the same level of player for that.

So I wonder if ultimately this isn't good for them. You know what I heard, Kevin? I heard that both of those teams, both Pat Riley and Mark Cuban, that they printed out your ringer article that had their picture and your recommendation that they tank. And they post it in their locker room and they're like, hey, fuck this guy. That's what I heard. Hey, man, I don't mind being a motivator. James Young blocked me on Twitter. What?

I don't mind being a motivator. James Young block. You're blocked you on Twitter? Yeah, we should probably edit that out, be saying that. No, why did he block you? No, you're not editing that out. No way. I want to hear this.

Hey, I'll tell you who blocked me. I'll tell you. I wrote something about how bad his defense was a couple years ago within the context of like, hey, if the Celtics are serious about trying to make the playoffs, they should bench James Young. Oh, damn. And he blocked you? This was, I think, after.

I think this was after the Celtics trade for Isaiah. of Thomas. I'm pretty sure. The only one that I've ever that I know NBA player that has blocked me was Hashim Thabit because I just, I would kill him. And The Beat had enough. And he

finally, he blocked me. You know, I clicked on his profile and it says, you can't read this. You've been blocked by Hashim Thabit. And then, of course, right, I had to make the joke. It's the only fucking thing he's blocked in his life. I heard talking about another athlete. I heard

Ben Rutherberg blocks a lot of people. I've seen people screenshoting. Ben blocked me. It is really funny you say that because I saw that on Twitter one day. I saw that all these people were saying that they were blocked, like preemptively blocked. I swear to you, Kevin. I typed in Ben, I typed in the handle and I was blocked. I was like, what the hell?

I don't even cover the NFL. Like what? That's what I was seeing. Like people who don't even like tweet about them. People who never tweeted a thing about him are being blocked. It's odd. Yeah, right. Oh, no.

The worst one for me was in terms of – I was not blocked by him, but in all caps, James Hardin said, you're a joke to me. Seriously. James Hardin did? Yeah, well, here was the problem. Here's what happened. Okay. So do you remember the draft that – they had traded him –

Oklahoma City had traded him to Houston, right? And they'd given up these draft picks and whatever else. And so the night of the draft that they took Stephen Adams, right after the Stephen Adams pick, somebody tweeted, you know, James Harden, and then from his handle, it was like, Stephen Adams, really? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And which was funny because that was the last piece of the trade, right? So anyway, this is back in the day before you could just click retweet.

So I did the whole manual retweet and then just kind of laughed about it because I thought it was funny. Well, anyways, long story short. somebody had like made that up it was fake but I didn't know I had just been duped right and so it gets passed around like all these times because I tweeted it and so like later in the night Hardin is like what the hell where did this come from well I've got the most followers of the people that retweeted it so my name is at the top so he thinks I'm the one that came up with this and is like screwing him and I had to tell him I was like yo man I didn't do that. I'm sorry. It was a manual retwit.

It was the words. He called me a joke on Twitter. And I was like, Jesus. I pulled up the tweet. I see you right now. Your response is, yo, dot, dot, dot, dot. My bad, was all over my timeline. Thought was real. Yeah. That was my

response? You're so apologetic. People are responding. They're like, well, that escalated quickly. Yeah, man. You're a joke in all caps. That's too funny. Yeah, that's one of my claims to fame. It's one of my claims to fame. Wow. Wow. Now imagine me. It's going to resweet that. It happened at night and I'm sitting around. I'm sitting around at night and I'm like, what? Of course, my phone blows up and I'm like, what the hell?

And I had no idea that it was fake. And then, of course, he thought it was me, which I don't know. I know. Did you ever talk to him in person about that? like you saw him. No, you never did? No, I really, I really should have, right? Yeah, I've always wanted to, like, just say something to James Young. I was just like, yo, man, like, it wasn't, like, hating on you. It was just writing about things to get better at. It's about progress. No young player is going to be a great defender. And just to see, you know, just to see what you would say. Like, it's just person to person. That's all it was. So I would just be curious, like, how a player would respond, like, if they took something the wrong way through Twitter. especially if it were a mistake, like with you.

Well, by the time, by the time the guy would have been around, like it would probably be totally insignificant to him. It's not like he would remember. That was like four years ago almost. Yeah. So what the hell are you talking about, dude? Get away from me. What are you saying?

Are you crazy? I'd be like, hey, you remember that tweet? He'd be like, what? Get away from me, loser. I know. You really are a joke. Idiot, you've been, you're still thinking about that tweet? in 2017?

I know. What's your problem, loser? All right. Two more things real quick. First of which is Jolil Okifur rumors. Like we keep on figuring out like who could be moved at the deadline. But there's a, at least we've got some rumors going on. And Okifor's included in one.

Lord knows you hate Jalil Okifor. So I'm sure you want to move him somewhere. Yeah, and I love Rishon Holmes. I'm going to get you a lot. a Rishon Holmes jersey. When's your birthday? July 27th. July 27th. Let me write this down. All right, I got to get you a, I'm going to get you a Rishon Holmes jersey for your birthday. I'm looking forward to it, Chris.

All right, Jalil O'Kah-Fah-Four, where could he be moving? So there was a rumor from CSN Chicago that the Bulls are interested in Jalilah-O-K-Four, not that the Sixers are trying to trade O'Cafor to the Sixers, but the Bulls actually like Ogafor and they want them. Isn't that wild? No. I would take like a gift card for him. Oh, you're a jerk.

Listen, that guy, if it wouldn't have been for towns last year, would have won the rookie of the year. It's not like he was some bum. I don't get it. Why has the tables turned on him so much? I mean, it's not, look, I think with Okafore, it's, it's, with the right fit, he could potentially have a career. Like, he could have a good, solid career.

But look at, look at the team. that's interested in him. The Chicago Bulls, the team that already has the worst spacing in the league, the worst three-point shooting team in the league. And they want to bring in Jalil Okifor? Hey, let me tell you something. Hold on that. Hold on. It's like we didn't even do the podcast the last couple of weeks. If there was any lesson that we should have taken away, it is that don't make these quick evaluations in the first half of year two and decide what a player is going to be forever. That's just, that's foolishness. Look, yeah, but Okafore is not going to become a three-point shooter. Like, that's unrealistic. Like, maybe he could become a good mid-range shooter, and he already has shown flashes, but it's unrealistic to, like, project him as a three-point shooter.

Like, that would be fantasy stuff to think that'll come from him. So what? So what? They don't all have to be three-point shooters. The guys, you know what I mean? Be a good two-point shooter. Yeah, but, Chris, they have nobody. Nobody on that team

that's a good three-point shooter besides like key players I mean they have Doug McDermott of course they have guys who can shoot threes but their key top guys are not three-point shooters and honestly like I thought I thought the best tweet

go to network on Twitter our ringer co-worker Jason Concepcion and he put a great tweet diagram of Rondo and Jillo 4 pick and roll with Wade lurking ready to hit that 15 footer and Jimmy Butler waiting to cut

it's just a great tweet with a nice giff on there of how poorly this would fit for the Chicago Bulls. But look, if you're the Sixers, I'd be happy there's a team interested. All right, I still got Jalilil Okal 4 stock. I'm saying free Okal 4. All right, last thing, you're Boston guy, right? So are you rocking with the – and you told me you had a Tom Brady jersey,

so you rocking with the Patriots this weekend? Oh, man, I'm so fired up. I can't wait. It's going to be fun, man. Is that it? It's going to be a great night. I'm fired up, dude. You think they're going to win?

Yeah, I think the Patriots – I think the score will be. be something like 3724. I feel like this is a year where the Patriots just match up so, so well against the Falcons. And I think we'll see kind of, you know, close game at half time. And then third quarter, fourth quarter, the Patriots start to build a little bit of a lead. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. You know what? I told you, a neighbor asked me the other day. He's like, who you got in the Super Bowl? And I've been thinking about it a lot. I almost think, that if it were a week to prepare, I would have taken the Falcons. Like, they would have just had to play the next week. But the two weeks, I feel like I can sleep at night. If I take Brady and

Belichick and I lose, it's kind of like Alabama and college football. Like, I could sleep at night. Like, okay, so I bet on Brady and Belichick to get it done. Whereas if you bet against them and then they win, you'd be like, what kind of idiot am I? Right? Like, I don't know. I just kind of feel like, You know, right? They've been there seven times. I do think the experience for the two weeks to prepare does matter. And the other thing is, you know, the whole adage that defense wins championships, it's not like close. When you look at all those like DVOAs and you look at the rankings, like their defense is way, way better than the Falcons. Even the weight, you know, even if you wait it for schedule and quarterbacks and all that other stuff, their defense is way better. So, and I do want to say, you know, I'm trying to get it out of my head, but subconsciously, I do want to see the Goodell Brady moment.

Like, I do want to see that. You know what I mean? Like, I do think that would be fantastic theater. Where are you at on this, Tate? Has anybody even asked you who you take in the Super Bowl? I hate both these teams, Chris. Oh, come on, Tate. Yeah.

Come on. Come on. This is my nightmare. Come on, Tate. Good grief. Join me on the Patriots bandwagon. No, this is seriously my nightmare. This is your nightmare?

It wouldn't be your nightmare if they were playing the Broncos, right? No, the Patriots stole the Super Bowl in 2004 from us and the Falcons are just, you know, NFC South. It's a rival. Oh, well, because they beat Jake Delome? Oh, no, that wasn't even them, was it? Yeah, it was.

And John Casey kicked the ball out of bounds. Oh, that's right. We'll never forget. Never forget John Casey. That's right, Jay. That's right, Casey kicked that ball out of bounds. And they won't a field goal. It shouldn't even count.

Yeah, well, at least last year you had like no shot of winning, right? That one's easier to take than the Casey one. Oh, man, it was real tough. Real tough times for us. Here we go. Yeah. All right, so, hey, I know you don't like either of the teams, but if you had to bet a hundred of my dollars, Tate, who would you take? It's got to be the Patriots.

Yeah. There we go, Tate. Of course. I mean, it's always going to happen that way. And Matt Ryan's like the little brother of Tom Brady. Yeah, I know. But, like, if all three of us are on one side, I don't know. Oh, personally, personally, I'm betting for the Falcons.

You are? Yeah, no doubt about it. Plus three or money line? Money line. Damn. You know this. I'm not scared. He said he's not scared.

What is the money line? Like, plus what? Like a 210 or something? I think it's like plus 150. Is it that high? All right. Tay, we'll go get that money then. You know this.

Got to get that cash. Hey, no, that guy, hey, let's it. Figure it. Figure this. now, Kevin. The guy just picked the Patriots on the podcast and then said he's betting on the Falcon. Thanks a lot. You got to hedge your bets. Like, what does that even mean, Tate? You can't lose, idiot.

Right either way. That's the game. I mean, that's amazing. You're like, I think the Patriots are going to win. And then you're like, but I bet the Falcons. So either way, you can come on our podcast on Tuesday, be like, I told you. Yes. Play the genius card at all times. The worst Super Bowl pick I've ever heard in my life. Nobody has any idea. Like, if they're going to take Tate Fraser's advice on the Super Bowl. They got no idea what to do.

Just watch the game, watch the Patriots win, bet on the Falcons, lose money, and just pull for the underdog. Be an honorable man. You took the underdog. You know what? They're saying the sharp monies on the Falcons. They are. Be sharp. So it might be like a 3129 or something like that. Shannon's sharp with this cash. Anyways, that's going to do it for today's NBA show. You can follow Kevin O'Connor on Twitter at Kevin O'Connor NBA. You can find my man, Tate Frazier, at Tate Frazier. on Twitter. I'm at Chris Vernon Show. Everybody have a wonderful and safe weekend and we will talk to you next week. I want to give a special thanks again to Draft. If you're playing fantasy for money and not spending hours a day doing it, you absolutely should be playing on Draft.

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