The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 70: Cavs-Wizards, Boogie Cousins, and the Suns

Episode Date: February 7, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Monday night's epic showdown between Cleveland and Washington (01:25), DeMarcus Cousins's likely suspension (11:55), the Jahlil Okafor trade rumors (19:55), and the past, present, and future of the Phoenix Suns (29:10). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Chris Ryan. My name's Andy Greenwald. And we are the co-host of The Watch, a pop culture podcast on the Ringer podcast network. We are on Mondays and Thursdays. We mostly talk about TV, movies, music, pop culture, Jeremy Renner, house flipping, the papacy, Reese Weatherspoon dancing at wedding videos. We used to talk about Kanye West. He's in the, like, timeout corner right now.

Never ever talk about Christine Bransky. You can listen to The Watch on Mondays and Thursdays on SoundCloud, iTunes. Anywhere you get podcasts, subscribe now. And thanks for listening. It's a good hang. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com.

Kevin O'Connor. Kevin. Chris, what's going on, man? We nailed our Super Bowl pick. It's an NBA podcast, but we nailed our Super Bowl pick. Man, that was an unbelievable game, and I'm so happy it happened the way it did. Sure enough, the Patriots end up.

Everybody's heard enough about the Patriots winning, and they got that big parade today. You're going to go to the parade, Kev? Nah, man, that's happening right now. I'm sick, too, so I wouldn't want to go out there in the snow anyway. Well, you got the Super Bowl flu from a couple days ago? Yeah, man. I think that's what it is. I'm not sure, but it's hit me hard yesterday, and I'm feeling a little bit better today, though. I got you. Let's get to some headlines from last night. We had one of the epic games in the NBA so far this year. An overtime game between the Cavaliers and the Wizards. The Cavs end up winning 140 to 135.

LeBron James hits this crazy three to tie it at the end of regulation, where he's falling into the bench and he banks it. This was an unbelievable game. You had LeBron who has this monster assist game where he puts up 17 assists. You have Kevin Love, who drops 39 in the game. You have Kyrie Irving with a massive shot down the stretch. I mean, this was like, honestly, one of the great games of the years on national television. On the other hand, this Wizards team who has been scolding high, and it won all these games on the road.

I started to get a lot of questions after the game, which were asking me, what does it say about the Wizards? Are they going to be a real problem for somebody in the playoffs? And I will tell you, Kevin, I love their starting lineup, but damn, man, they need some bench help. I'm with you, Chris. I mean, just a quick aside, but that three by LeBron really was nuts. It took a miracle to beat the Wizards, which I think does kind of say where their starting lineup is right now.

Otto Porter, he is playing at the highest of levels right now. I wrote about him a couple weeks back on the ringer, and I feel like he's been better, like, even since then. And the numbers he's putting up behind the arc are ridiculous. And I think that in some ways has been the key, because he's become that third guy behind Wall and Beale. Those guys can light it up every night. But now when you have Otto Porter capable of putting up 25 points,

also while being a solid defender, that's good for them. But as you said, they need some more. more support off the bench and that's what teams need to beat the calves, these top elite teams. They need to make it up with the bench. Yeah, well, like last night, you got Jason Smith, Kelly Ubrey, and one other guy played double-digit minutes, right? The Saturnaski, how do I say it? Yeah. It's good enough.

Yeah, right, good enough. They don't, I mean, they got nothing off the bench, right? I mean, like in terms of guys that could come off. And if you're, you got Porter playing 45 minutes, Wall playing 44 minutes, Beale playing 45 minutes. And I get right, all the Cavs guys played a lot of minutes too because it was an overtime game. But they just, it feels like Washington,

hopefully when they get around the trade deadline, maybe they can bolster that a little bit because some of these teams, whether it is Boston can bring some guys off the bench, Toronto can bring some guys off the bench, Cleveland can bring some guys off the bench. You know, do you count on your starting lineup, especially when a lot of these series can go six and seven games to just, you know,

I mean, listen, all five of those guys have to be good every night when you're in those kind of huge games. And they were all good last night, frankly. I think the question is for Washington, what are you going to give to get like that extra bench help? I mean, first of all, what's out there that will actually make a significant impact? And then not only that, but what are you going to give? Because they don't have like any super high value picks. They have all their own, which is good.

but are they willing to overspend to go all in right now? I don't know if that would be the right decision. Maybe it is if it's the right player, but it remains to be seen which player could be available that could really move the needle for them. I think if you're them, you probably, you listen, you don't have a lot of assets to make a deal, but what you could do is snatch maybe some of the veterans

that end up getting waived or cut or whatever, just become casualties of the trade deadline. And sometimes you can find a guy that can help you. You know, and that or, or you might be able to find somebody that somebody's just willing to discard, right? They don't care what they're getting back. You know, that stuff happens all the time. You end up looking up and you're like, wow, they ended up with somebody that's actually helping them for very, very little. But that's kind of what they would have to pull off because you're right.

They don't have anything to give up. No, exactly. And for them, I think they do need more. But what we've seen from them, the past month and a half, two months actually now since early December is that they are in a position where they have to at least think about really making a push. Wall is certainly in the conversation for the best guards in the entire NBA so far this season. This has been a, you know, it's crazy because so many of these seasons that guys are having are overshadowed because of the ridiculousness that we see virtually every night from James Hardin

and Russell Westbrook. But you've got guys like Wall that are just having tremendous seasons. How about the other guy, though? Nobody talks about Beal. He is killing it this year, Kevin. Beal is shooting 47% from the field, 39% from 3, and he's averaging 22 a game. And like last night, there are moments where Brad Beal looks like the best player on the court. And that's in a game that features LeBron, Kevin Love, and Kyrie.

I think this is his third game scoring over 40 points this season. And I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm sure that has to be at least in the top five of guys that have scored at least 40 this so far this year. I mean, obviously hard in Westbrook guys like that, but Biel's right up there with everybody else. I'm quite sure. And we got to give some love to Scotty Brooks, right? This started off badly for Washington. It really did. This looked like this was going the wrong way when we were doing podcast about a month into the season.

And they really got it together. And, of course, until last, I mean, they're 8 and 2 in their last 10. They've won all these games at home. And they really started to, they really started to click. And now, I mean, they've got home court advantage of the playoffs. start today. I mean, let's be real. Like, at the time, I think we were talking about should the Wizards consider trading John Wall for like the best available package. And it speaks to how quickly the conversation can change. And absolutely, Scotty Brooks deserves a ton of credit for

really getting those two guys and Otto Porter and the rest of their pieces. Just to play at an optimal level together. And it's really one of the fun storylines of this great NBA season. You think Porter gets the max in the offseason? I mean, I look at him like this year's Harrison Barnes, right? I know, I think if you're another team like Mavericks looked at Barnes, you say, okay, can we elevate his usage and put

him in a greater role and can he maintain his efficiency? Can Arnold Porter do that? I don't know. I'm not 100% certain about that because he doesn't really create for himself as much as he's elite when he catches and shoots. He's elite on cuts. He's elite in

transition. He's elite on play types where he's kind of the receiver, right? I don't know if he's as much of the quarterback of his own offense. So I'm not 100% certain with that, but I think he's absolutely worth a lot of money just for the fact that look at what he's doing being that third guy on, out of a core that looks like that's what you need to really contend, right? And I think if I'm another team, I'm thinking he could be that piece that really enhances our cornerstone players. No, we always have to figure. this out, right? Are you in your best position in the role that you're in? Is Otto Porter best to be

your third guy? And he can be an awesome third guy. As compared to, right, once upon a time, we had to do this with somebody like a Hardin. We said, all right, is he an amazing third guy to have? Or could he be his own guy and be the best player on a great team? And of course, you know, time told us that he proved he can be. but I don't know about like I think Porter almost might be like that may be his best role in the NBA is to be just the best third guy that there is which is worth a boatload of money now listen third guys are getting max money yeah I mean and we're talking about a guy who's shooting 46.7% from three and that remains to be seen if that's truly his percentage if that's truly his level of production but that's exactly what he's. did going back to All-Star break last season. He's been shooting at like 45 plus percent since then. So he's been doing it for almost a year straight now.

And if that continues, that's an elite level shooter. That is Kyle Korver level shooting ability. Granted, he does it differently. But bottom line, his ability to catch and shoot the ball at the moment appears to be elite. And there's a ton of value in that. And obviously in today's three-point heavy NBA. And it's also a perfect fit with Wall. because wall they run that they can run that high pick and roll or side pick and roll he comes off and the guy from the corner has to sink in or else you're giving up something to wall so when he sinks in wall can just kick it out and the guy nails it every time it seems like you know i mean that that's the difficulty for defenses do you help on that man driving or do you stay home on on that shooter spotting up that's that's an incredibly difficult decision well more often than i think you have to have to help but

at the same time, then you're opening it up an open three. Yeah, and he takes a lot of open threes, and he drains a lot of open threes. So anyway, I'm very high on the Wizards. They are fun to watch, too, man. They have got some serious offensive explosion with that backcourt. Would you take right now that Wizard's back court over anybody else? Are they the best back court in the NBA? John Wall will tell you that they are.

I suppose, I mean, there's a lot of arguments to be had. You've got that Warriors back court, which you might want to have. Curry or Thompson's probably still got to be number one. Would you rather have Wall and Beal or Lowry and De Rosen? I think that's a good argument. So I'm not the biggest DeMar Rosen guy. I know the start he got off to this season was incredible, but I think we've kind of seen them fade a little bit.

And DeMarderosen's lack of three-point shooting still, to me, is a hindrance no matter how great he is for mid-range. So with that said, I do lean towards the Wall, Beal back court. But at the same time, out of those four guys, if we've taken one of the four, I think Lowry is the one I like the most just because his impact on the defensive end as well as his playmaking and obviously his scoring ability. But the combo, Beal and Wall, I think I give a slight edge over Lowry and DeRosen. But you put him behind Curry and Thompson. Yeah, absolutely. Right.

All right, fair enough. Other headlines from last night, DeMarcus Cousins got his 16th tech of the year. So he is going to get a suspension because once you get 16 techs, You end up getting suspended. Who do you think is second and third in the NBA in technical files? I went to go look this up. Obviously, Cousins is number one. He's the first guy to get a suspended.

He's got 16. I will tell you that second on the list this year for most technical files, the number's 12. Hmm. I don't know. I really don't know. Who is it? D'Andre Jordan has 12. And then I would have get, you know who I think I would have guessed?

I think I would have guessed the guy who's third, which is Westbrook. Because, I mean, Westbrook gets hot, man. Yeah. He gets, you know, he's, as a competitive guy. So Cousins has got 16, Jordan's got 12. Westbrook's got 11. And then how about this? Fourth on Texas year?

John Wall, the aforementioned. And then you've got three guys that have eight. Kyle Lowry, DeMarter Rosen, that backcourt. And then Dremont. So, Draymond's got a long way to go for you. So Cousins is the first guy suspended. He's got four more Tex than everybody else. That was not the only headline that was related to DeMarcus cousin yesterday.

Vladi Divak told ESPN.com, we are not trading DeMarcus. So I guess that's pretty clear cut, huh? I'm watching the clip now for the first time because I didn't see the game live because, like I said, I'm not feeling when I went to bed early. But Jesus, Matt Barnes and Cousins really went at that at the end. Jason Concepcion on the ringer wrote an article yesterday. What happened to the NBA's enforcer? right there. Do you think they read the article's cousins?

I think they might have. I really think they might have. And then they went out of that. What was the question? I'm sorry. Vladi Divok said yesterday, we are not trading DeMarcus. Yeah.

I mean, I totally buy what he's saying. I don't think they're going to. I think their plan is to go into this summer and keep them. I think that's what I've heard recently. there's really no indication that they are going to trade cousins. We've made the argument before that they should. I still feel that way, but I don't think it's going to happen.

And if it were to happen, maybe it doesn't happen until the summer, but I'm not confident that it will even happen then. I think they're set on building around boogie, and you can't blame him. The dude's a stud. What is the best thing to put with him? Are we just talking about a great guard and on what type of guard? I don't know, man. So I really don't know.

Like I've been thinking a lot about boogie and I've always been on the side where I think if you put him in a winning situation, he turns into just a stud, right? Like he channels all that energy into a positive way. But at the same time, I look at like the recent champions in sports, the way the Patriots came back, the resilience, how the cavaliers came back against the Warriors, the Cubs, the way these teams have been so resilient and the way they kind of rallied around each other through positivity. And I see what people say when they're like,

Cousins' negative attitude doesn't really lead to winning. It doesn't lead to a winning atmosphere. And I struggle, like, philosophically in some ways, because I think Cousins could become a winner in a winning situation. But at the same time, you look at some of these championship teams and the qualities that they have. And it's like, does Bougie really have that? I mean, I know I'm going a little bit off topic here, but that's just on my mind the past week or so,

just the way the Patriots won that game and thinking back to the other champions. Well, even if we go back to when he was in college, right? When you go back to it, I mean, bro, they had John Wall, Eric Bledsoe and Boogie. They didn't win the title. And that wasn't it. I mean, they had a slew other NBA guys on the team. But, like, don't those three guys. And they didn't win the NCAA title.

his year there, right? Whereas I think you would say, and there were, I mean, listen, it's been a story with him for a long, long time, going back to high school, going into college, going into, and now in the NBA. That being said, I do agree with you that he would be best suited to be part of a real culture. Like, when you talk about the Patriots, whatever, they've had guys that came that weren't exactly known as amazing teammates or great guys per se, but they fall in line. They want to be a part of winning. And they fall in line with the culture there. I mean, if there's anything we can excuse Boogie for, it is being a part of that culture at Sacramento. He's had a million teammates.

He's had a million coaches. And the culture sucks. So, I mean, what do you expect? Right? There's part of me that's on that side of it. Right? Like, I mean, it's not like he's the only problem there. No, I agree.

And I think, you know, it brings to mind a Bill Belichick quote. He's always said, talent sets the flow. character sets the ceiling. And in many ways, that's true. No, like, no matter the sport and in some ways, no matter what it is in life. And with cousins, he's been put in a situation that has really not helped his character in any ways. And I mean, to get back to the question about what does he need?

In some ways, I think that's what he needs is really just the right surroundings character-wise. He needs the right pieces, the right foundation. and he needs a top-down positive leadership from ownership to the front office to the coaches, then down to him as the best player on the team. And right now he doesn't have that. And hopefully for the Kings, they do get that. But that feels so far away from me more than anything else with that organization.

And then I think we could truly decide what we think, right? I think part of it's just going to, he's got to grow up. He's still got to grow up. He's still popping off about things. And the other thing is you look at, you know, sometimes you are a part of a great culture and you get that opportunity. And it just like, look at Beasley. Beasley couldn't, he went to the heat for goodness sakes. If we're going to talk about teams with culture, I mean, outside of the Spurs, the heat have a great culture there that has been established for a long, long time.

And Beasley couldn't cut it there. Now, obviously, DeMarcus cousins is infinitely better than Michael Beasley and more talented. I'm just saying that would be the fair shot is put him in a winning situation and then grade him out because right now I don't think it's necessarily fair. It's almost like putting a kid in a bad school with principals and teachers that change every single year and then you expect that kid to be some kind of a great student, right? It's just hard to grade how much of it is on him. I don't know, you know. But I know he hasn't been given the greatest shot at being whatever he can to fulfill his potential. clearly gets pissed off all the time.

And, you know, you mentioned the heat. I think we can talk about, you know, how incredible Drogrich has been. We can talk about Dion Waiters, man, right? We can talk about how awesome he's been, too. But really, in many ways, Eric Spulstra in the culture they really have developed over the years is really manifesting in a positive way for them right now because they were horrible. They were one of the worst teams in the league. And somehow they managed to have.

that the positivity to really just bounce back and have the resilience to win 11 frigging games in a row against not just bad teams but some really good teams. I mean, they beat Golden State during this run. They beat a hot Atlanta team. They beat a hot Philly team. They've beat a lot of competitive teams over this run. And I think that speaks not to just the emergence of Drogitz and waiters, but the system spolster, the culture, Spolstra and Pat Riley and so on have really, really morphed over these years.

All right, another headline from yesterday. I've been waiting on it. A possible Jalil Okafore trade, Kevin. Oh, yeah. So last week, a lot of people were hitting me up on Twitter. They loved your, that you would trade Jalil Oka for for a gift card line last week, which is total slander. And I'm not going to, and frankly, I'm not going to put up with it on this podcast.

I'm ready to go. He averaged 17.5 points and seven rebounds last year. year. And if it weren't been for Carl Adity Towns, it would have been the rookie of the year. And he was great in high school. He was great in college. He had a really good rookie season. And now all of a sudden, you know, four months into his second year, everybody is now wanting Rashon Holmes or anybody else in the, you're trying to trade him for a gift card, for God's sake. I still, I'm, you know how there are people still on Waiters Island. I'm literally the only occupant it feels like on Okafore Island.

Me and his dad Who threatened to beat a guy's ass on Twitter over him I'm glad I'd hear from him So Lunographer for look I'm with you Chris that we can't give up on him We can't give up on a second year player Who has been great at every level

Right? We can't give up on that guy With that said I am amazed I am amazed that somehow the Sixers might have the leverage to ask for a first round pick for him. And that doesn't have as much to do with Okafore, to me, as it does their situation. I thought maybe they would get like a top 20 protected first rounder, right? Or maybe a future 2018 top 14 protected first rounder.

But we're talking about what could be a 2018. They want maybe a top 10 protected first. That's pretty soon. and that that amazes me I'm just stunned by the fact that that's what Calangelo could reportedly get Why is that surprising the guy's on a rookie contract And maybe if he's on a good team could get you double digits off the bench every night Yeah, but at the same time he's a big man who plays no defense

Doesn't rebound and he doesn't space the floor and he's not a good free throw shooter We can talk all we want about how he's a tremendous tremendous low post score. But really, that's not the most important trait in today's NBA. And plus, not only this, I don't think he's quite the perfect fit next to Anthony Davis. Hold on. Did you just describe, did you describe Jalil Alcalfour or Enos Canter? Which of the two were you described?

I don't know. That's my confusion. Oh, you think he's useless too? I don't think Cantor is useless, but I think he's a superior player to Okafort. What are you talking about? They're dying on the vine without him. What else do they have? I'm just saying

Okafo, I'm saying there's not a lot of guys around the league that can do it. You bring them off the bench, you let them play against second units, and the guy can get you buckets, and some nights he might get you a lot of buckets. But Cantor also isn't a total liability on the defensive boards. Canter's a really good defensive rebounder.

Oh, stop. Okaford. Donovan wouldn't even play him in the party. Okafore rebounds like a shooting guard at the center physician. He's a horrific rebounder, and he doesn't expounder. effort on that end. I think as bad as Cantor has always been historically as a defender. I think the one

thing we can say about him is he at least tries on defense. He expounds effort. And yes, that could be part of the situation for Okra for, but I always think back to their national championship run when he's just jogging up the floor against Wisconsin, just jogging up the floor. And if there's any time for him to really put out effort on the defensive end, it was in that moment. And he didn't then. And that really was was a huge red flag to me at that time, and he hasn't really done anything that changed my perception of him on the defensive end yet in the NBA. Wait, are you talking about the national championship

that he won as a freshman? Yeah, we're not talking about results here, though. I know. But we're talking about when he's just lollygagging up and down the court, getting back on defense. You saw him jog up and down the court one time. Like, oh, let's forget the big, bitch. He won the first of the title.

No, it was the whole game. Oh, God. You can go back and watch that game and just spot Shadow Okhafore the entire time And you're gonna see him just not giving it his all In transition getting back on defense or in the half corner defense and that in national championship for him to do that I don't know man That concerns me Did it ever dawn on you that he's just slow? I mean it's not like we're talking about Usain Balti here

Okay This is my big thing with Okafor and at Media Day and Philly I asked him about this. And I kind of asked it the wrong way. I said, I said your feet are sluggish on defense. And everybody in the room laughed. And I didn't mean it to be an insult, but it came off that way. But anyway, so on offense, we know how quick he is, right? Like, that dude moves his feet on the post. He's like a dancer out there. But on defense, it's nothing like that. And he said for him, it's largely due to technique. It's largely due to an understanding of what positioning to be in. And I think there's some truth there.

I think it is partially due to technique, but it's still an effort thing, man. It's still an attention to detail. It's still about simple awareness. And I'm not sure he has those qualities on that end. Maybe someday he will. I hope someday he will. But again, so far in college and now in the NBA, we haven't seen much evidence that he does. All right.

I like skilled guys that can get me buckets. And I think the guy can dribble pass and shoot. And I think he could be valuable in that whole, you know, again, Enos Canter, Al Jefferson, there's a lot of guys now that are, they can come off your bench, get you some buckets, those kind of players. I'm going to ask you, Chris, would you deal, okay, what protection would you put on the pick? If you're the, if you're the Pelicans, what would you feel comfortable with? Top five protected, top 10 protected, lottery protected, and what year first round pick?

I'm curious about that. I'd lottery protect. For what year, 2018? Yeah, well, this upcoming draft, I'd for sure lottery protect. Okay. Yes. Okay, that's fair. And would you, if you did make that deal, let's say you got Okerfor for the top 14 protected first round pick.

Would you feel like we got our guy next to Davis or would you be like, well, we better hope this works? That's a different question. I don't know if that's at what kind of fit he is next to Davis. I worry about that. I think that's fair. I don't know if he, I don't know if he's the fit next to David. Again, in the meantime, if he's not going to be, if he's just going to get. thrown in a hundred million pick and rolls.

I do think there is a role for him right now. And we have seen, and it's been written about, that now the big guys, there was even an article in the ring earlier this year about that's what's happening with big guys now, right? The Monroe's and the Canthers and the Jeffers and the Zbo's and the, you know, that they're guys that are coming off the bench. And these guys can eat second units alive. And when they're getting thrown in a million picking rolls, they're being thrown in a

million pick and rolls against a second unit. and so some nights when they really got it kicking, you can stick with them, they can close out games for you. And then other nights, at the very worst, they're coming off your bench and maybe they can, you know, everybody, we were just talking about the Wizards earlier.

Like there's so many teams that, like, when they bring in their backups, they're dead in the water. And they've just got to bide time until they get their starters back in. I feel like Ocalfour's the kind of guy that if he was on your second unit, in the meantime, that he's going to,

He's going to keep even keel. Like he's going to, you're at least going to be able to score, right? That article you mentioned was called Finding a New Future for the NBA's Low Post Big Man. That was posted in October. And so check that out, like Google at or put it in on the ringer. That basically really did touch on the things you just talked about about playing these big men off the bench, kind of like the bucks what they're doing with Monroe, Grizzlies with Randolph, that type of role for someone like Okerford.

Was it Charks? No, that was me. That was you? You wrote that? Yep, in October. Yeah, and now I'm arguing against them. You forgot the article? Wait, I just figured if you...

I just figured if you wrote it. I'm not against looking for in that role, but I'm not... I'm totally against giving way too much for him now. Oh, my God. Literally, you wrote the article that I was thinking of. You dumbass? No, man. It's all about value for me.

And I didn't see how... I don't see why you would give up a first-round pick for me. Everybody listening, go back and read Kevin's article, which rips apart the argument that he just made. Hey, hey, no, I don't think I talked about value that much on that, though. I never said I would give a lottery for a strong pick for Jalil Loko for. All right. Let's get to what you did write about today, which people can go read,

regarding the Phoenix Suns. Are the Suns rebuilding? Right now, Phoenix may have the second worst record in the league, but it's stocked with young talent. Will the sons build slowly or flip assets for a star, GM Ryan McDonough, Coach, Rall Watson, and the up-and-comer, Devin Booker on the tough, present, and bright future in Phoenix. I thought this is a really great article, Kevin. I'm being honest. And I'm excited because later this week on The Ringer, I'm going to talk to a guy that you talk to for this article. And I'm going to get him to expand on some of its thoughts that he gave you, which is Jared Dudley is going to be on the podcast this week.

Yeah, who's a super thoughtful guy, as you mentioned. Here's what I'll say. And instead of hashing through the entire article, I want to encourage people to go read it. But there are a couple things from the article that I want to take you to task on, okay? Sounds good. I feel like it is presented in this article like, hey, here's what the sons are doing. Maybe there is some kind of plan for the long term, or maybe there's not, right? maybe they're right like even in the even in the subhead it says okay here's what they're doing or maybe

here's what they're doing it's almost like if they and even like their GM says Sean McDonough in the article if it could be accelerated so like the plan is are we building around this young core or would we trade this young core to get an established player well I guess it just depends which is fine to always leave yourself open but I'll say this kev two years ago they had a roster that won 48 games, and they had Isaiah Thomas, and they had Gorin Dragich, and they had Eric Bledsoe, and they had the Morris Twins, and they had, you know, they had Miles Plumley, and they had Brandon Wright, and they had PJ Tucker, and they had Marcus Thornton, and they had Alex Lent. I mean, they had a bunch of guys on the team in retrospect,

including the friggin second leading scorer in the NBA, and you just kind of mentioned that in passing. Like, I get that, like, maybe the guy is smart. But here's what I know. That's not, it is a big mistake that it's like, and then you just kind of excuse it by saying, oh, well, at least he's trying stuff. Bro, he gave up the second leading score in the NBA for nothing. Yeah. Like, that is a tragic move.

It was a major, major, major, major, major mistake. And McDonough has said before, he would take a Mulligan if he could. and I think that's an understatement. I think people talk about how he missed on Aldridge and they signed Chandler by accident. I think that's just they made a good run and they came in second. They tried for Kevin Love the year before Love went to Cleveland. I mean, the point is that GMs make mistakes, right? Like I think every fan base looks at the draft night mistakes GMs make.

Like, oh, they pass on Jimmy Butler. Oh, they passed on Rudy O'Barre, right? Every team makes mistakes. and that Isaiah Thomas mistake was really a critical one. But at the same time, that was a really unique situation where Drogich was demanding a trade. Thomas wasn't particularly happy with his role. I'm not excusing it. I think at the time, I thought it was obvious at the time that they didn't get enough.

I thought the Celtics totally ripped them off at the time because Marcus Thornton was on his way out in the NBA and that Cleveland draft pick did not have much value. but at the same time, that was definitely a unique situation that they were in. But at the same time, look, you got to move on, right? You got to move on. You can't dwell on your mistakes. You need to continue building. And they have done that. I like what they have right now.

And I know we can dwell on that mistake and think of where they would be if they had kept Isaiah Thomas. But at the same time, it's time to move on and build what you have. It's not just Isaiah Thomas, though, care. I mean, it's Isaiah Thomas who's become the second leading score in the NBA and was on a four-year $27 million contract. Okay. The guy had an amazing contract and his amazing player, and they just blew it.

The other thing is look how many guys I just named that can be eight-man rotation guys on a good NBA team. From the team two years ago, you had a bunch of guys. And it's not like they were all, like it wasn't a bunch of veterans on that team. I don't get it. I don't get what they did. I don't get like they had the 48 wins. They had Hornetech and then they just kind of, they yanked it up.

They just screwed that up. They had got like they had a roster that had pieces there now. And now it's like, okay, well, we've got Devin Booker and Marquise Chris and Dragon Bender. And like, when are you expecting that to be good? Four years? Three years. Here's the thing. Here's the thing.

Was that 48 win team for real? I mean, you know what I mean? Or was that kind of a fluke in some ways? Okay, look, they had three starting point guards in the NBA. All right. They had Gorn Dragich. They had Isaiah Thomas and they had Eric Bledsoe. Who knows if they, I think you would say they'd try to have.

That's like all they had. Okay. That's really all they had. Hold on now. Both Morris twins are starting. Okay. Yeah. Are those, look, the goal, look, not every team builds to win a championship.

There are teams in the NBA that build to make the playoffs. There are teams out there that are cool with being a 45 to 55 win team, making it into the playoffs, keeping the fans happy. But then there are teams that say, you know what, we need to go all in on winning a title. And that's why I love what Sam Hinkie and the Sixers did by tanking it. They took the long view, as Hinkie wrote in his letter, they had the longest view in the room. And in some ways, the sons would not admit to tanking. But in some ways, I think that's kind of what they did. I think you look at what they had before and they didn't have enough.

Should they have kept Thomas? Yeah, no shit they should have. But I think in a sense, that was kind of the perspective. Like they said what they have right now isn't going to be enough and it isn't going to allow them to build to have enough through free agency or trade or whatever. And I think that's kind of the perspective now where McDonough has taken a step back, maybe three steps back and built what is a young team that isn't good right now, but they do have talent.

They have a ton of assets with the Miami picks they also have coming up and their own, and they have cap space for if the time comes where they are a destination. And they've given themselves, in my opinion, flexibility to react to opportunities that might present themselves in the future. Okay, which of these do you have the most stock in? I would say obviously Booker, okay? But other than that, Marquis Chris Dragon Bender, both of them you think are going to end up. Like, if you had to forecast what those guys are going to become, and I know you write draft guides every year, what did you think about both of them?

So I loved Bender. I had Bender ranked third, I believe, this year. He was at least in the first tier. I think Bender will be a great player. I look at him as somebody who's versatile defensively can protect the rim. Great for today's modern league where Big Man Han. handle the ball. I love, I love Bender and I feel really good about him in the future. Chris, Chris in a sense to me was the the Grand Slam swing pick. He was the guy where there's a good

chance you're going to strike out at the plate taking your swing at Chris because he, he is so raw and his feel for the game really isn't good at all that there are times at Washington where he looked completely lost in the floor. There are times now, same. thing where he looks super explosive, where he looks like he's going to be in a Mamari Stonemeyer. But then there are times where he looks like he really doesn't know how to play basketball. And those guys oftentimes, they do get better. But there's a lot of times where they don't too. And I think Chris is in a good situation in the sense that he's able to play early.

And he's learning from veterans, guys like PJ Tucker and Tyson Chandler and Jared Dudley. He's learning from vets. But at the same time, he is still really, really. I'd say more of a risk. You can make the argument he has higher upside than Bender, but I think his floor is super, super low too. You trade

Bledsoe or do you build with him? I'd trade him, man. I would trade him and I I've struggled with this thinking about even while writing the article, but I would deal him if there's an acceptable deal

out there that you, if there's a deal out there where you don't think you get better, In a sense, I have no idea if they would trade him before the trade deadline. But you look at kind of the state of the league right now. I think there's a lot of teams that are on that bubble where they want to make that push for the playoffs or they want to hold their spot. And maybe you can take advantage of one of those teams and try to get a little bit more than maybe you should for Bletso. Because as good as he is, as good as Bletso is, we can't forget the fact that he's historically been very, very injury prone. We can't forget the fact that he's still.

pounds the ball too much. I don't want to say he's a ball hog, but he doesn't necessarily have the best pure point guard instincts. And he's not a great shooter off the catch. So even if you do have your guy on the team or if Devin Booker becomes a star and they're really your go-to player,

Bledso isn't the best guy shooting off the catch and spacing the floor for you. So I think Bledso is a good player, a really good player. But I think maybe you can get something that becomes great for him if you're able to take advantage of a team that's really desperate to make a push for the playoffs this year. The last couple of times that I've watched Bledsoe, the thing that was most disappointing to me

was him defensively because when he came in the league and I get that when you're young, your way to get on the floor is to be a tenacious defender. I'm telling you, Kevin, I think this guy could be as good a perimeter defender as there is in the entire NBA. He's got the requisite length. He's strong as an ox and he's a bulldog, right? There were times when he was Paul's backup. where you would watch him in even playoff games,

and you couldn't get the ball past half court against the guy. He was menacing, and that's not there anymore. He doesn't play like that anymore. The last couple times I've seen him defensively, and I get, you know, he's obviously a much better offensive player than he once was. But I think that, you know, again, he's one of those guys again, that if you got him in like a real big time winning culture, I think Bledso could help somebody win titles.

Like, I think he's that good. I don't know if he could be your starter doing that. But I think he's a winning player and somebody would have to get him to be that kind of bulldog, you know, a defender again. Because when he's locked in defensively, he's as good as there is, I think. I'm totally with you, man. I 100% agree on that. And that's another disappointing factor. And it's excusable because he's taking on such a heavy load on offense these last two years.

but the thing with him is like oftentimes a lot of guys, they age, they do lose something on defense. And especially after all his injuries, I wonder if it's more so of that more than it is what we think it is. And that's the increased offensive role. Because there's always a possibility that it really is just the fact that injuries have taken a little bit more of a toll on him. Because he's not as explosive as he used to be on offense either. He's a much better offensive player than he ever was before. But that's largely due to volume. and obviously improvements in the pick and roll.

But he's not as explosive as he used to be when it comes to driving to the rim or finishing with loud, ferocious dunks either. So I wonder if it's partially a little bit degraded athleticism more so than the increased role on offense. And if that's the case, maybe that guy doesn't exist anymore. Maybe that total elite defender isn't there, even if he is in a situation where he's coming off the bench

and is playing fewer minutes. Yeah. I just, I got done reading the article, and I would tell everybody, go read the Sons rebuilding article that Kevin O'Connor did. Really good reporting. Got a lot of great quotes. I just wondered, you know, A, that the whole ownership group there has given up on guys before. You have seen Kerr and Gentry, as you mentioned, move on.

I don't know if they're going to give this guy McDonough time. He seems like a smart enough guy. On the other hand, he also seems like the kind of guy that is biting his time and is going to try to figure out how much time that owner is going to give him. And if that owner is not going to give him a lot of time and expects them to be better faster, then he might forego whatever is this smart plan. Because you just look at the moves he made, even when he gave up Dragage, he may never even get to make those frigging picks.

I mean, they're like the 2020 and 2021 heat first rounders or something, right? I mean, it was a long way away. I think it was a 2018 top something protected. and then 2019 unprotected and 2021 unprotected. So the pick is, okay, just outline it clearly, it's 2021 unprotected and top 7, 2018 protected, or 2019 unprotected. Yeah, okay.

So, I mean, and you just hope you can make it to those, right? Yeah. I mean, that's the question. Yeah. Will Robert Sarver, the son's owner, give this time for McDonough and Earl Watson and this real current core, or will they cut him loose and bringing somebody new?

Well, he has not been patient before, and you outlined whether it was Kerr or whether it was Gentry or whether it was Calangelo, right? A lot of the things have not, it doesn't seem like things end very, very well there. No, it doesn't. For most guys. So, who knows?

We'll see what they do with this guy. And this guy's obviously got a little ange in him, McDonough, which would stand to reason, right, because of his time there. like the whole collect a bunch of assets, but the whole collecting assets is great, but you've got to end up with something, right? At some point, he might.

They got some good young pieces, that's for sure. Anyway, go check out the article, the ringer.com, are the sons rebuilding by Kevin O'Connor? Kevin, get over that head cold, brother. We'll get up with you next week. Hey, thank you, Chris. Have a good day.

Thanks, man. That's going to do it for the Ringer NBA show. If you think what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk about it. talk to you on Thursday.