The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 76: Buddy Hield, Jimmy Butler, and Trade Deadline Predictions With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: February 21, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Vivek Ranadivé's comments on Buddy Hield's star potential (8:00), what constitutes a bad trade (15:00), how DeMarcus Cousins fits with Anthony Davis (19:00), Jimmy Butler trade talk (26:00), Kevin Garnett's NBA TV interview (34:00), and final predictions before the trade deadline (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Robert Mason, the Ringer NFL show. Even though the Super Bowl is over, free agency, the combine, and the draft are all right around the corner, and the Ringer NFL show will have to be covered bringing everything you need to know. You can subscribe to The Ringer NFL show at iTunes.com slash The Ringer or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varnan, joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com, Kevin O'Connor.

Kevin. Chris, what's going on, man? So I understand you are still in New Orleans, Louisiana, from the aftermath of All-Star weekend. Before we get into the stories of the day, how was this All-Star experience for you? Or I guess it's still going on. It themselves. I mean, as everybody saw watching TV or at the event itself, they weren't great. I mean, the All-Star game was kind of lame and Saturday night wasn't great.

But it's fun. New Orleans is a really amazing city. It was my first time here. So it's cool. Any parties? On Friday night, I met Wynn Butler, lead singer from Arcade Fire. He was awesome. So that was at Hannibal Burris Comedy Show, so that was cool.

There you go. So you went to Hannibal Burrises comedy show and you met Winn Butler. Who else famous? Do you meet anybody else famous while you were around there? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure it's just Win Butler. At least in my IQ is the most famous person because I love Arcade Fire. Womp, Womp, listen, shout out to Arcade Fire.

But come on, man. you were in New Orleans for the entire weekend and the only famous person you met was Win Butler? Yeah, I didn't meet Beyonce or Jay-Z or anything like that. They were in the room so you could say, you know, I was on their presence, but I didn't meet them. How did you approach Win Butler?

I was just like, yo, man, I love your jacket. There's a New Orleans jazz jacket. And, yeah, it was cool. So, you know, we talked a little bit about basketball and, yeah. And then he said, scram, idiot. Basically, basically. Get out of here. Get out.

All right. So New Orleans, Louisiana has been good to Kevin O'Connor. Last thing, because, I mean, obviously we had all these events going on and everything. Food. That's what New Orleans is certainly well known for. You had to at least get poe boys and stuff, right? Yeah, man. I probably gained like 18 years unbelievable.

The food definitely lived up to the height. Food is something else here, Chris. There you go. Then you did New Orleans right. All right. So the game is going on. You were at the actual All-Star game, correct? Yeah. Okay. So what is it like in Media Row when in the middle of the game, Adrian Ward Janowski is tweeting out that the boogie cousin stuff is coming to a head, that they are talking to different teams? I mean, I can only imagine what it's like to be there. You are covering an event, an event that is, you know, it's not something you necessarily have to pay real attention to or that there's going to be some big story.

coming out of, and then in the middle of the game, this drops. What happens? Well, first of all, my first reaction was like, yo, woe's dropping bombs during the All-Star games, and then I was like texting people trying to figure out what's going on. So, like, my initial reaction was just like a total fan, and right after that it was time to get the business. But me and Micah Peters, we were sitting next to each other for the game,

and we were talking about how it just seemed outrageous, that that buddy-heeled trade offer was actually going to be the best deal. I thought that it was probably leaking because it was like the first offer that got declined. I think that's something that happened sometimes. But it turned out to me the total opposite of the best, the one that they liked the most. And, you know, me and Michael were kind of just going back and forth, like, how could this actually be the deal? Like, what could be offered better from, you know, the Celtics and the Nuggets or the Sun,

teams like that? And it's so easy to figure out of deals that were better. but the fact of my hill what happened was unbelievable. We were walking back to the hotel when the deal actually broke. Okay, so we did a huge podcast on the boogie trade with Bill Simmons yesterday. So we covered that a lot in the actual trade and going through all the different teams, etc. Yesterday, after we had recorded that podcast, Vladi Devak has his press conference. And this is all – this seems like a very, very bad deal for Vladi, like all around.

First, you had just a few weeks ago he comes out. out. In fact, it was a little over two weeks time from now. I think it was two weeks from yesterday. He, ESPN reported, quote, we are not trading to Marcus Cousins. Then you have the beginning of All-Star Weekend where Cousin says, I want my jersey in the rafters. I want my legacy to be in Sacramento. So everybody was kind of on board with the, okay, Sacramento's made it rather clear. They're not trading the guy. Cousins wants to resign there in the offseason. He explicitly said that and wants to remain there. And then you get to the point yesterday where Vladi's talking about the deal. And he says, I mean, the headline was, I had better deals two days ago. So he presents this

whole case, which I think everybody that can read between the lines, walked away going, oh, God, he had the deal. And then it took a little while to convince his owner. And then by the time he convinced his owner, he didn't get as good a deal as he could have gotten two days ago. Is that how you read what he said yesterday? I'm surprised that he came out, actually. I think the reason why he did is kind of the reason why they took that Heald deal is because of the owner, Vec. So he values Buddy Healed as like a Stefan Curry level type of potential guy. So he thinks he can be a superstar for Vec.

The Vex's opinion is all that ultimately matters because he's the owner and he's the guy who approved the deal. So I think Blotie Dvok, you know, putting out. on a message saying, you know, there were better deals, but we weren't able to do them, whether that reason was because an agent next to deal or because the owner next to deal is a little unclear. But the fact is that there were better offers available. And that's what I reported last night on the ringer.com. And I think that's reading between the lines exactly what he was saying as well. And I know he should have taken more time to find a better deal.

I think he should have called more team. I think he should have waited until Thursday. I think he's wrong about the fact that the Pelican's offer would have dropped. But I can understand why he felt some urgency to get a deal done. Well, and this is the most interesting thing about that that came out of yesterday's aftermath with the cousins trade, was this whole idea that it makes it a lot more understandable when you understand whether or not anybody in the free world agrees with it. and it seems like most don't. Vivek thinks that Buddy Heald is going to be a huge star.

You know, and that may be a fool's errand. Like, he may just be wrong. But I have been, and you know, we've talked about this on this podcast a hundred times, I have been on the side of, you can't tell, you can't tell yet, right? I get the whole Buddy Heel doesn't really shown me that much yet or whatever, but my point would be you can't tell with these guys this early. Now, your opinion on Buddy Heald is going to be informed by whatever your opinion was before he ever came in the league. That's kind of where I stand on it, right?

I think whatever your opinion was of Buddy Heald in the draft, your opinion probably hasn't changed radically. So if you think he's going to be really, really good in the league, or you think he's going to be okay, or you think he's going to be a bust, I don't think that anything's happened pre-All-Star game outside of him going out and like maybe average a 20 points a game, which nobody really does as a rookie generally. I mean, I just, I don't think that he, I am willing to, I don't think he knows basketball, but if he's right about that, there's going to be a lot of people that are,

when we do the revisionist history on this, are going to be wrong about the return they got. Yeah, you're right. I mean, if he's about it. And look, like before the draft, I was one of those people that was defending Buddy Heald. And I still will if it's the right argument because I think everybody talks about Buddy Heald age. It's 23 years old.

And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. Younger guys usually develop better because the reason why it's better players leave college when they're younger. Buddy Heald wasn't ready when he was a freshman or a sophomore. It took him four years to develop. And it might take him four years to develop in the NBA too. He might not hit his prime until he's 27. And yeah, sure, that's not great for you because that means you have less prime years available for him.

But just because he's older doesn't mean he won't develop. Every rookie needs time. And Buddy Heald was somebody who needs three years to become a second round value pick in college. He took the fourth year to become a potential lottery pick, which he was. And it might think him that type of trajectory in the NBA as well. So look, Carrey calling him the next curry or thinking he's the next carrie is ridiculous. He's not going to become that type of player. But it doesn't mean he can't become a good player.

It's just setting those expectations, I think, works against Teald a little bit. Because if you're expecting him to be a franchise savior, and that's how you're kind of viewing him. You're going to be let down. He can become a good player. It's just going to take time. But the thing is, even if he becomes a good player, he's still always going to be the guy that they traded cousins for,

because people are going to look for him to meet Buggies level of play and I don't think he'll be able to quite reach that. No, that is putting a ridiculous expectation on him. Steph Curry is a two-time NBA MVP. I mean, that just, it's wildly unfair. I will just say that the argument, when people are saying, oh, they just got Buddy, like, I just don't, I don't think we know what Buddy Heald is going to be yet.

If people have very, very strong opinions about that, then so be it. But I look, and I'm watching that All-Star game on Saturday, right? And I think about all these guys. and if I would have evaluated them on the first half of their rookie year, would I have thought almost any of the, would I have thought DeMarroza was going to be a huge star? No. Would I have thought Janice Antecompo is?

No. What I thought Jimmy Butler is? Maybe. Isaiah Thomas, Kyle Lowry, Kemba Walker. I mean, there's just Paul Millsap. There's a ton of guys that are on that. James Hardin, for that matter. By the way, I went and looked up.

At the trade deadline, or rather the All-Star break of his rookie year, James Harden, and admittedly he was younger than Buddy Heald, had the exact same numbers, exact. 38% or 39% field goal, 38% from 3, almost 10 points a game playing 23 minutes. That's almost identical to what Buddy's putting up. And so, again, I'm not saying Buddy Heald's going to be James Harden. Don't get me wrong here. What I'm presenting is sometimes when you do those stat lines, it's Jimmer for debt, and sometimes it's James Harden.

And you can't judge off the first pre-trade debt or pre-all-star break of a guy's rookie season to determine what he's eventually going to be. I don't want to talk about on the rigor.com. Let's take him seriously. What does he'll need to improve at to become a guy like Stephen Curry? He's got the jumper. He'll is a great shooter, right? but he needs to have an outlier type of development as a ball handler and an at-room finisher.

Stefan Curry entered at a younger age, whereas Buddy healed, he's kind of clunky near the rim. He has basic finishes, but he doesn't finish with touch or spins off the glass or creativity. So that's what he needs to improve at first. Second, he is near, but he was kind of predictable. So he needs to become a guy that could break down an offender like Curry can. That's how Curry gets his shots off. Heal doesn't do that. Heels are a basic one or two dribble pull-up guy at the best, or he's just a spot-up guy. So for heel to become Curry, it's not just the jumper like Vizek might think.

It's improving as a ball handler and as a finisher. Those are the areas where he needs to make this drastic level improvement that is really unpredictable. Could he improve? Yeah. But Curry is elite in those categories, not just good. It probably would have been safer. and again, it's insane, okay, because these guys are the best players in the league. It might have been safer to do the Clay comp because Clay, that's how he gets. You know what I mean?

He shoots. That's what he does. Clay Thompson doesn't, you know, break your ankles and then go to the basket and go up and under like Curry does. I mean, Curry's up there with Kyrie in terms of the best ball handlers in the league. But nobody's going to mistake, you know, for Clay Thompson for some ball handling. wizard and so that might have been a better comp like if i'm trying to say hey i think this guy's going to be amazing because otherwise you're i don't know like i actually think that your

your point when i was reading your article today about him being a guy that is um like mechanical right like it looks like he thinks it through yeah you know and i know he it's jody meeks esk, right? And if you just traded, if the biggest piece you got back for DeMarcus cousins is Jody Meeks, then you just got crapped on. You know what I mean? A lot before the draft, which people were using as a negative,

which I never understood. It's like JJ Redick, it's a great player. He's a great defender, and it's one of the best shooters I've ever seen. Like, if Buddy Heald were to turn up to JJ Redick, that would be great for the Kings. But will he do that either? I don't know. It's into a great defender, and Buddy Heald right now is a very, very

bad defender. Here's the other part about yesterday, and this was the unintended consequence, which I'm sure that they knew might come up. But that deal, it shine, it was by most, I think by most judgments, a bad deal, right? They don't think most people do not believe they got enough and are joking about it to the point where even NBA players like Isaiah Thomas are tweeting out, you can't even do that on 2K. So the general consensus, the general consensus is they got a bad deal out of this. The unintended consequence was it's shown the light on everything else they've done. So what happens when you trade under Marcus Cousins is people go back and they go, here's all the coaches they've had,

here's all the GMs they've had, here's all the crappy draft picks that they've had. They're horrible in the draft, right? And here's the guys they've drafted since they've had cousins. And then most importantly, here's the Philly deal. And it's like it brings that up all over again. And that one is just, I mean, that, Kevin, that is seriously the worst deal ever. Because at least, like, we used to, you know, really goof on the Brooklyn one, right? Like Brooklyn hasn't had a first-round pick in eternity. But at least they were going for the title, right?

Like they got Paul Pierce and they got Kevin Garnett and they had this team of Joe Johnson, Darren Williams, and they had just gotten the new arena and the new team. And they were going to take a shot at the title. And it might have been, you know, folly to think they could get there. But at least, like, there was something they got out of it. I mean, when you look back at that deal and it was like Bellanelli, Rondo, and Cufus, and it's like, holy crap. Like that is, it's so, it's so bad. It's almost like you don't want to trade cousins just so people don't bring up all these. other crap that you've done wrong.

Let's talk about the other thing from the Cousins aftermath. These are the fourth and fifth leading scorers in the league for the Pelicans. Davis and Cousins. Davis is averaging 27.7 points per game. Cousins is averaging 27.8. Whose numbers, or do both, who's the leading score for the Pelicans for the last 25 games of the season? Who do you think? You know, the guy.

Does either one of their numbers go up or do both of their numbers go down? Or do both of their numbers go up? That would be frigging crazy if both their numbers went up. I think maybe Davis, maybe a slight dip. The dip the most could be like Drew Holiday. Maybe he takes on like more of a spotter pole a little bit when Davis and cousins have the ball in their hands more. So maybe true holiday. But I think it'll be a little bit of everybody.

Does it work? I think it's going to be effective, but, you know, I don't think they're necessarily like a guarantee to get that eight seed. I still think the Nuggets are a good, solid team. And I think, you know, the Blazers, even though their defense is terrible back court, look, I think, I think Davis and Cousins, if Alvin Junchery uses him in a creative way like he can, it can be really hard for stop. This is what I talked about with Micah the other night. It's like, so if you run a four or five pick and roll with Davis or Cus or Custra, handling the ball. And like, let's say,

let's say Cousin is the ball handler, Davis is the roller. Davis is one of the best lob guys in the NBA, and Cousins is capable of pulling up and shooting threes, or he can drive hard to the rim to draw fouls. That's a hard thing to stop for defense. Like, we have the Blake Griffin, D'Andre Jordan,

picking all in the NBA, but Jordan can't pop. Davis can pop and shoot. So that's a new wrinkle in that type of offense. And I would love to see them. that I would love to see how a defense kind of react to that. To they switch, if you switch, maybe that puts you in a less advantage of position. Do you just defend it straight?

Do you drop? I don't know. That will be interesting to see. I just think, you know, while other teams are going small, it's going to be really interesting to see what this team does when they're going big. I know there's other big combinations out there like Zach Randolph and Marka Stoll, but these guys are on another level, and it'll be really fascinating to see how defenses play against them and how the Pelicans

try to attack those smaller lineups, and if they can do it effectively, because we can't forget about the defensive end of the floor, and Davis is a great defender, but Cousins, I'm not sure he's quite as good defending the perimeter, so that'll be very interesting to see how that happens. Well, let me say this, the teams that have, or there are some teams

that have given the Warriors problems and, you know, outside of obviously having LeBron James and Kyrie Irving on your team, but I'm talking about like when the Grizzlies took a Golden State to six games, and when you saw last year Oklahoma City blow it against them. Like that is the forgotten series, the Oklahoma City series.

There were moments throughout that series where when Oklahoma City would miss, they would get the ball back. And when Golden State would miss, they would get the ball. And so you do put Golden State, you can put them in a position where you can really pound them down low. That is not their strength. And you've just got to hope that they're not hitting shots at their crazy range. But I don't think that it's bad to Zag when everybody else is zinging because what we found, at least what I've watched this season, there's a lot of shitty versions of the Warriors. You can't copycat them because you don't have, you know, a center who's 6-5 that can guard every center and every point guard in the league. And you don't have, you know, these literally transcendent shooters on the team.

So I don't think it's a bad idea. And I think that you could, whether it's Houston, whether it's going. Golden State, whether it's some of these teams that play a lot of small ball, I could see that being a big problem if it works. Because there are going to be moments where you just get the ball every time. Hell, Oklahoma City did it. When they had Adams and Abaca in there and Durant playing small forward and they grabbed every rebound.

So I don't know. I'm hopeful. I think it could work for the Pelicans. The question is, does it make them the favorite to get the eight seed now? Let's knock Sacramento out because they're going to fall back. New Orleans is two and a half games out of the playoffs right now, and they're going to be competing with Denver, Denver, Portland, Dallas, and Minnesota.

Where's something to make sure Gallinari, but I still think that they're going to be really, really competitive. Great guys mid-season, especially like a star player like Boogie. Times where they struggle with chemistry, even if they have supreme talent on the floor, that's unpredictable, or it can work seamlessly. I mean, we really don't know. I just think it'll be maybe a little bit tighter than people think.

I get the impression, you know, from just reading online, people think that the pelicans are shoo-in for the 18th. I don't think that's the case. Denver has a really strong team overall, strong as and, like, out of that group of teams, I mean. Well, and you also wonder what all these teams are going to do. Are they going to make the push? Are they going to go, is Portland going to go and say, yo, we got to make the playoffs this year and go swing a deal.

You know they have been an active team rather regularly. When it comes to time for teams to be active, Portland's usually in the mix. Denver, who knows? Dallas, Minnesota. I mean, what about this Minnesota thing that came up last night about Rose? The idea that they would trade for Derek Rose from the Knicks. Would you – I mean, the guy, I guess Tibbs really loves him, right? Does that move?

I would like to trade for Derek Rose to think. don't resign their gross. Okay, here's a thing. How about this? That I would like it. Let's say they pulled off a Rubio deal, right? They pulled off a Rubio. Rubio for Rose.

Yeah, like, just something that includes both, right? Let's say they pulled that off. Right now, the Knicks are four games out of the eight seed. The T-Wolves are three and a half games out of the eight seed. Do you think either of them would improve significantly by making that deal? Who would you rather have? for the wolves. Tom Fibito would use him in a way that really maximizes what he has left.

And Nick's offense is blah, right? And that more dynamic scoring point guard like Derek Rose. However, they would lose something on the defensive end of the floor because Rubio is a great defender at that. What they would gain on the offensive man would outweigh the loss on the defense. How about this? I just put it in the trade machine, just the straight-up deal, and it actually takes. And it says the Knicks would be minding.

one win, the Timberwolves would be minus three. So the projections would be that it would make both. The projections are weirdly that it would make both of them worse. That's interesting. Rose isn't having a bad season. He's averaging almost 18 points a game and 46% from the field. And his P.E.R. John, I'll just trade analysis.

There you go, right? I see that now. Yeah. It would be interesting, though. I would love to see the reunion between Rose and Pivot. The odd trade that makes both. worse. Rubio for Rose.

Who knows? But I thought that was interesting. That was the one that came out last night. Yesterday, when I was doing the podcast with Simmons, one of the things he mentioned, and you know he's usually plugged in and what his beloved Celtics are doing, I kind of got the impression. When I went back and listened back to it, I got the impression that Simmons thinks that there's a good chance that the Celtics could end up with Jimmy Butler.

and we talked about Jay Crowder and the Brooklyn pick or whatever else. You covered the Celtics for a long, long time. What do you think? Do you think Butler's the guy? If we're going to try to project who's a big name that could move or is Aange finally going to use these assets, you think is Jimmy? We're going to get Butler. I think they probably need to include one of the next picks of the deal.

And I think if you're the Bulls, I would demand the 2017. Because if I'm Chicago, I'm thinking to my... ourselves if we're going to trade Butler at some point, whether it's now or in the summer, we need to maximize our return. And look, I think the Nets Pick, the 2017 Nets Pick is something that the Celtics should at least consider giving. And from Chicago's perspective, the reason why I'd be willing to, it's just because if you wait until the summer, there could be new teams that come out that are willing

to offer more for Jimmy Butler because what could happen? Let's think about it. come, you know, May, when the lottery happens, then maybe Minnesota is able to offer the number one pick and Chris is done for Jimmy Butler. Suddenly, there might be the team that can offer the most for Butler, not the Celtics, right? So if you wait just until the summer,

you open yourself up to be able to get more offers for more teams. Right now, I think the Celtics are clearly the team that can offer the most. Like, I have no doubt about that, that they have the offer to be, if they were to make that the strongest offer that they can make. But if they wait, they might be able to get a little bit better than that. However, if I'm the Celtics, I'm thinking to myself, look, you only have a 25% chance at getting the number one pick. You only have a 64% chance of getting a top three pick. So there's a chance, though, that you lose that pick and it drops the three.

Even if you get that pick, even if you get the number one pick, what is Markle Fultz or Lonzo Ball going to do for you at this? staged their career. Like, what are they really going to do for you? Whereas Jimmy Butler is a guaranteed star. No, he doesn't close the gap with Cleveland quite yet, but I think he gets you a whole lot closer. Depending on the other pieces in that deal, it's kind of where I get hung up, because last year, what Chicago wanted was just way too much in a mixture of veterans. They wanted two established players and two draft picks. A source has told me it was something along the lines of Jay Crowder, the number three pick, which would have been Chris Dunn. Another established player, whether it was Marcus Smart or Kelly Olenick is a little

long player, and then another pick, which I think probably would have been this year's next pick. If they still wait, I think then you're asking for a little bit too much from a Celtic. But if it's just 17 Nets pick and a future pick with a guy like maybe just Avery Bradley or the filler contracts like a Mayor Johnson, then maybe we're talking. And Aver Bradley in that deal, I don't think that... Okay, let me ask a stupid question, okay? With all of these guys, whether it is DeMarcus cousins, you can say, why would they trade him?

And everybody kind of knows the reason. A, they have won more than 33 games. And B, maybe A, he's a malcontent or whatever you want to say, right? Whatever the knocks on him are. Why would they trade? Why would the Knicks trade Carmelo Anthony? Well, clearly, Phil Jackson and him are at odds, and it's just not working. And so that would be the reason.

Paul George, you know, his name comes up. Oh, well, it would be because they don't think they can resign him, whatever. The one thing that has never presented, it's just accepted all the time that Jimmy Butler's name is out there and is a guy, a big name that could be moved. I guess my question is, has anybody ever given a really good reason as to why the hell the Bulls would want to trade Jimmy Butler? Like with all the other guys. They have no future. They have no future. They're not going to accomplish anything building around him.

They don't have anything else. I saw just like two years ago with the Kings. You look at the Kings roster two years ago, and it was obvious they weren't going anywhere with what they had to trade him. It just, they waited too long, I think. And if I'm the Bulls, I'm looking at my situation. I'm thinking, we're going to deal him at some point over the next year, whether it's up to next year's deadline or this summer.

I don't think they have to trade him right now. It's a little different than the King's situation. But I think that time is coming pretty soon. and I feel the same way about the Indiana patience should not matter. Everything Paul George has said indicates that he's definitely not a guarantee to re-sign there. He becomes a free agent a year sooner than Jimmy Butler.

So that, I think, you know, oftentimes, and this is kind of what my column, is sometimes having the longest view in the room allows you to maximize a return on these star players. Nobody will ever want to trade a star. But there's a time where you wait too long and you don't get the maximum return, and there's a time where you deal them too early,

which doesn't happen often. I think somewhere right in the middle is where we're kind of at with Jimmy Butler and Paul George. So I just don't think those teams have a chance to win a championship with the current construct they have. And I don't think they have enough assets

or cap flexibility in order to bring more guys in. Or the appealing team that would appeal to those stars. Not to mention that this year's free agent class isn't that good. So I just don't pay a viable path. Let me just say this. I'm in the camp of, all right, I'd probably try to build around him. And I know you say because the limit has been reached.

But listen, with some of those other guys that you're talking about, when you're talking about, like when we compare it to cousins or whatever, like they haven't won dick. Like they have won with Jimmy Butler. It's not like they have been a crappy team over and over and over again. And so if I've got one of the best wings in the whole league and he's not, you know, long in the tooth, I don't know, man. I don't know. I guess we can always just think that everybody needs to reboot. But I'm not persuaded that there is some kind of great reason to get rid of Jimmy Butler from the Bulls. They're signing like these past their prime guys just to remain competitive.

Powell Gasol. He's not a championship of a little player at this stage because there. Rajon Rondo, Dwayne Will. that's why they're a 500 team. But just because you're winning more games than like the Nuggets or the Sixers doesn't mean that you're closer to being a contending team.

I don't think more wins equals closer to a title. I think if anything, it can also mean it actually further away because by making these short-sighted moves, you're hindering your chances of having more success down the line. And that's just kind of the way I feel about the Bulls situation. Same thing

with the Pacers for that matter. I just don't and if that's the goal, If that's the goal, which it isn't for every team, then they need to choose something to shake it up. Whether that's training Butler or taking a step back and retaining Butler, they need to start thinking long-term. Not true. They need to think long-term. Well, we must admit, though, this can go the wrong way, too, right? I mean, it can't go because you can say, oh, well, let me take you back in time, okay?

There was once a guy, and I happened to watch last night on NBA TV, the sit-down interview between Kevin McAil and Kevin Garnett, which is outstanding. For anybody out there, if they rerun that thing on NBA TV, I would encourage you to check it out because the wall is down on Garnett. And he's very frank, as he always is, for an hour. They set him up with the perfect guy that he was willing to talk to him, McHale. But let me take you back in time, right? That very well could have been the same discussion, the one that you just presented. We always think of the great scenario, right? We always think of the best case scenario.

You're not going anywhere now and you have this star and you can't build around them and you're not going to win a championship. So it's just better to go ahead and get a ton of assets. Well, let me ask you, once upon a time, they got a big haul in Minnesota, right? When they traded that particular guy in Kevin Garnett. And then they sucked for like 10 years. You know what I mean? Like sometimes it doesn't work, Kev.

Right? Like, it's cool to get young players and assets and draft picks and whatever else for your star. And maybe Minnesota never would have gotten, you know, to the NBA finals with Kevin Garnett is their best player. But hitting the reset button on that, you know, turned them into a crap team for years and years and years. Same thing goes with moving Chris Paul once upon a time, you know, until now, New Orleans has been totally off the radar. And that includes even having one of the best five to ten players in the league. Anthony Davis, Carmelo Anthony, Denver hasn't done shit since they moved him. I mean, it's just sometimes trading the star and then getting the assets, like it sounds

great in theory, but you may end up sucking for, you know, the next five to ten years, and that is a tough deal. So I don't, I'd at least rather have a pretty good product sometimes. You can trade Paul Gasol for an offer that looks like shit, but it actually ends up saving your franchise in a way. Or you can trade Darren Williams when things are just starting to go bad and not waiting until they

sour completely and get a solid return for him too. I think there's arguments to be made both ways for sure. I think there's deals that we can cite in NBA history that that's been either way. But even that, going back to that Kevin, aren't I feel. Well, but that's a fair one.

I think it's a fair one. I think it's a fair one that you bring up both Memphis and Utah, right? A, no one would have ever suspected Gassau becomes a three-time All-Star and one of the best centers in the world, okay? Except for Chris Wallace, maybe. He will tell you. Like Vick expects he'll be carrying. And this one is a little bit different, though. That one is a little bit different because it, and we know so much more about international basketball now.

Markesaw was the MVP of that league there, right? And he was playing for the best team. So he was the best player on the best team. The idea that his skills or that he would be good in the NBA and that it would translate, at the time people might have rolled their eyes or lend the skeptical view of. But in retrospect, there's a lot of guys that we've seen that go and kill it over there. And then it totally translates. The other thing is, so there's one side.

The Utah one, it's interesting you bring that up. There's another team that sucked, though, Kevin, until now. This is the first time they're going to be back in the playoffs in a long time. And it took the Grizzlies a long time. I sat through them. I sat through 20 win seasons. Multiple, three in a row. I mean, it sucks.

It's the worst. And then it finally takes two. Then you sign Zach Randolph and then you're on a seven-year playoff. And you get Tony Allen. You're on a seven-year playoff run or whatever it is. Utah. It looks like they're set up for the future now. And we like the hall clearly.

They got what, Derek favors, right, in the Darren Williams deal. But it is not easy, and it takes a long time, and there's no guarantees. You know, hopefully you look up one day and you've got, you know, a Utah team like they've got now, or you've got Marcus Aho is a three-time All-Star, but generally you don't get that kind of return, man. And so I'm a little more, I'm a little more skeptical of just trading stars and hitting the Reuters. reset button. I don't know. My response is just basically this.

You're 100% right about what you're saying, that there's risk and there's no guarantees, but this is the alternative. Jimmy Butler, enters free agency and he leaves, and you get nothing. Paul George enters free agency, and you get absolutely nothing.

And that's the ultimate worst case scenario. Because I don't see how any patient span or bold fan, I don't see if anybody can feel confident that those guys would absolutely resign just because of the potential of giving them the extra $30 million, the designated veteran extension under the new CBA, I don't think that that, I think that factor is a little bit overblown.

I think, sure, in some players' cases that it's going to help keep them in place, I'm not convinced about that. If they're in a losing situation or if they're in a situation where it feels like it's going nowhere, just look at the things like Paul George has said this season, not having fun, things like that. It's like this guy has admitted to the media that he wants to win. I get it.

He's not having fun. What does he feel privately? You know what I mean? I get it with Paul George and I get what he's saying and I get the pressure he's trying to put on the organization, et cetera. And you may have a good point there. But I will say that when push comes to shove and you lay the contract in front of these guys, who has left, man? Like even DeMarcus Cousins on Friday was saying, I'm staying. That guy's lost to me.

He has loyalty tattooed on his body. All right. But I'm saying that. He loses every friggin' year, and he said, I'm staying. Right? All right. So I'm just saying. Because he has loyalty tattooed on his body.

He is like loyalty to a fault, just like Kevin Garnett was. Okay, but who do we have? It wasn't until he left that he realized, oh, my God, the grass is greener on the other side. Yeah, but all these guys, we say, oh, they're going to leave. They don't. They don't leave. Who left? Aldridge left. Greg Monroe? You know, if you want to...

Who? But, you know. Forford left. Al Horford. Hortford. Katie left. Katie left the winning city. Look, I mean, you can look both ways. You can look at guys who didn't leave. There's examples of both. It's just, I just think you've got to shake it up. What the Bulls are doing isn't working.

What the Pacers are doing isn't working. And if you can shake it up and get like a. super high draft pick and a really nice young prospect and other pieces that allow you not just getting those players back but having new flexibility to react new opportunities because that's it wasn't just gassol with the king they got they gained cap space which allowed them to get Zach Randolph for virtually nothing I would take my risk buying guys like my connolly I would take my risk would you have rather than kept Paul gasol that's what that's my question now no I know I know it's in hindsight, but like putting yourself back in that moment.

Again, but okay. Even though the deal was bad at the time, was there's some understanding where it was like, okay, maybe, hopefully this works out. Okay, all right, let me just, let me go ahead and make this clear. A, 100% I wanted them to trade Powell Gasol. B, they were horrible, Kevin, with Powell Gasol. They were horrible. Okay, these teams, and this is the reason that you and me differ on this,

with George and with Butler. You can say it's not working. They're just not, they are respectively the six and seventh seed right now. They're both point-off teams. And that's fine. You can say they're not good enough and it's not going to win a championship. They're not shitty. I mean, like, when you go back in time, people can go back in time.

A, everybody had turned on the Grizzlies. They're winning 20-something games. There's nobody in the arena. It's like you're going to a funeral every night. They were awful. They were not a competitive team. And same with, and if you want to say that about Sacramento, they just weren't going to be competitive.

And so now is the time to pull it. I do not think that those examples are fair to put in line with Indiana and Chicago when both of those teams are right in the playoff race right now in the Eastern Conference and are the sixth and seventh seed, for God's sakes. Like, what do you want? No, you're right about that factor. You're totally right. Like the Bulls, I think they lead the NBA

and attendants for the ball up with the money. Then sure, you're happy. You're good, right? But the thing is, I'm saying, if it's about a title, you're not going to sign scrubs like Rajan Rondo just for the sake of trying to win more games or having a big name.

You're not going to sign prove your team a little bit and maybe I am a San Hinky truther. And I think, I don't think that extreme approach is always necessary. But I think sometimes taking a step back, allows your team to really just accumulate better assets and more flexibility within a team. And I have younger guys to play more, too, for that matter. Getting the back to that Grizzly's team, they stunk because Rudy Gay was like in his first or second year. They stunk because Hakeem Warwick was playing like 25 minutes for a game.

They had a bad team overall because they didn't sign those crappy players or those old players in order to make themselves average. I might be having a little bit of revision of history here. No, they went through that. They went through that. No, they went through that. They went through the whole, you know, bring in all the old guys and make another.

They brought in Damon Stademeyer and Eddie Jones and Chuckie Atkins, and they were coached by Mike Firtello. But they were beating people, you know, 84 to 80. By the way, Chuckie Atkins, one of my favorites. Here's a series of story for you. So the Grizzlies were down 3-0 against, I want to say it was either, it might have been San Antonio, I can't recall. But it was either San Antonio, I think it was San Antonio.

And they're playing them in the playoffs. And it's before the game and they're down three zip. And Jerry West walked into the locker room. And he's then running the team. And he gives this impassioned speech, right, about how once upon the time we were in the, you know, we were in the playoffs. And I'm paraphrasing here as it's a second half. story from the players that were in the locker room. And they say, you know, once upon the time, we were down 3-0 in a series.

And he said, and I looked over at Will Chamberlainville and I said, no, fuck this. We're not losing this. Blah, blah, blah. Right. So he gives this whole speech, right, about how they came back and they ended up winning the series. And this is before game four, right? And Jerry West walked out of the locker room and Chuck Eackens turned to the resident players and said, any old motherfuckers see Will Chamberlain?

here. And by the way, they got their ass kicked and lost in four games. So Chucky Ackins will always be one of my favorites. Oh, my God. Shout out to Chucky Ackins. I wish there was somehow a video of that. Like some security footage somewhere and locked away that we can see that moment. Shout out to Chucky.

But anyway, no, the point is they did try that and they patched together a bunch of old guys and ended up making the playoffs again and then they just said screw it and then they went into rebuild mode and a bunch of young guys and Powell Gasol but they were terrible Kevin trust me they were bad

and so all I'm saying and that's hard to go through man and I know you're a Sam Hinkie truther and there's a lot of Sam Hinkie truthers and clearly he swindled a lot of people but I do wonder I was sitting back this and thinking the other night

when the Okofor stuff was coming up he nailed the M. Bede pick, right? But it took it two years. If M. Bede's not the guy that they take, and he is not the process, and Joel M. Bede, as we know him now, everything else is what?

Because I don't think they nailed them. They didn't. They didn't nail everything else. You're right. They didn't. And you've been nailed Mbid yet. After two years of missing every single game. So that pick isn't really officially nailed yet, right? But I think you could look the other way and say, well, what if they took poor Zingis instead of Okafor? I just think from a, I mean, no pun intended here, but from a process perspective,

I think what they did was sound. I think, you know, maybe the lottery balls bounce a little bit differently and it helps them or it hurts them. Maybe they don't end up with Simmons one year. Maybe they end up with the number one pick the other year and they take Wiggins, right? I think it could go either way. I just think from a process perspective, I love what they did. And I think Sam Hinky, some of the picks might as it misses, but he won every single trade he made.

Like, go back. Every deal Sam Hinky made, he won. And that's why they're in the position they are now, kind of rounding back to how our conversation started here, but they have all these kings' rights to swap this year. Even if the Kings bought them out, the Sixers can end up with the King's pick. So if the Kings win the lottery,

The fixers actually win the lottery, and they get that pick. 2019 first rounder. So it's like they have all these picks from all these deals that they won, and they just stole future picks like candy from other teams. And I think the job Hinky does is incredible. And they're in a position to do something special as long as Colangelo is the guy who really finished the job by making the right moves. Fair enough.

You are going to be out at the Ringer offices doing trade deadline specials. we are going to have a special trade deadline NBA show after the trade deadline with myself and Chris Ryan on Thursday. Give everybody a heads up on that. But I guess this is our last chance since we're on the podcast to make a prediction. Do you think who is the biggest name to move? I mean, we've already had, listen, Abaka was a pretty big name. We had Kyle Corver earlier in the season.

That got started early. Abaco was a pretty big name, clearly a starter on an outstanding team up until this year. and then Cousins is just like, I mean, he's on the top five scorers in the NBA, so that's a monster, monster name. Biggest name that gets moved by the next time we talk. I think it's Butler? Yeah, let's go with Jimmy Baller. I think, I say, so in my opinion,

if the Celtics should at least consider giving up that 2017-knit's pick, so screw it, Jimmy Baller. I say Carmelo. Okay. To who? I say Carmelo is the one that moves. The Celtics followed on my Instagram last night. So the Clippers or from the Celtics are going to the cast or a mystery team.

I would say I think Carmelo moves to either the Clippers or the Celtics. That's what I think. On our mid-January podcast and debate how he'll fit again. Yeah. And ever since you slandered him, he's been on fire, by the way, when you called me out for calling him outstanding. Ever since you called me out For him being outstanding He has been beyond outstanding

He's ever like 28 He's at 28 points of game It's funny how like that podcast Like a week after that I'm like defending him Standing I just I just think like he's not outstanding But he's not bad like a lot of people say he is I mean there's a lot of negativity out there about Carmelo

I think Carmelo There's an awful lot. Yeah, I think he moves. I think he's the one. I think he's the big name that moves, and he either ends up in Boston or L.A. They both have assets to make a move. I do, too. I hope he moves.

I want to see him such a great career going back to high school and college and then, you know, playing in the Olympics. It would be great to see him really have a chance of the title. And if they don't get an inbound play Stolen, when they played against the Lakers, the team, that he had, you know, with Kmart and all those guys, Billups and whatever, that Denver team had a shot at the title. They really did. They were in the West Finals and had an inbound stolen, I believe, by Trevor Reza, if you go back in time, or they were, you know, so many of these playoff series were decided by one or two plays here or there. But it's been a long time since he's been in that, you know, kind of high leverage situation. And I'm with you

too. He is such a great player. It would be nice before he is, before he's Mitch Richmond for the Lakers, right, to have a shot. Or Tracy McGrady for the Spurs. Like, you don't want, like, you know, fine, you got a ring, but whatever. Yeah. He's still one of the guys. He's still outstanding. Not quite outstanding, but he's still really good.

Hey, man, go get some more to eat in New Orleans before you have to fly out. And we'll watch all that stuff. I guess it's going to be Facebook live, and it'll be Parasic. scoped and everything, the ringer trade deadline stuff that's going on on Thursday. I look forward to watching you on it. Watch it. Watch it. Go over your Facebook.

Go to Twitter. We'll be tweeting now and putting it everywhere. You can follow Kevin on Twitter at Kevin O'Connor NBA. You can find me at at Chris Vernon Show. One word Chris Vernon show. If you dig what you're here and go, give us a rating and review on iTunes. And we will talk to you right after the trade deadline on Thursday.