The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 78: Three-Quarter-Season Awards With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: February 28, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Andrew Bogut's final four team choices (6:00), Brandon Jennings on the Wizards (11:00), the three-quarter-season awards (15:00), Harden vs. Westbrook for MVP (24:00), the 15 most important players in each conference (29:00), and if the Pelicans are worse with DeMarcus Cousins (35:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With the Peace Corps, you can use your skills and talents to make lasting change in the world. Do the unexpected. Apply now and become a Peace Corps volunteer. Learn more at PeaceCore.gov. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday is Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer.com. Kevin!

How's it going, Chris? Well, before we get into all the basketball news, the Ringer.com released a very controversial. list yesterday and it was the fast food items and I scrolled down until I could find your name and I did find your name on one of the entries. Did I not? Yes, you did. What was the food item? I forgot already. It was the honey barbecue chicken sandwich from Waterburger. Really? And that was your choice? How high did you have that? Because it was not, it was not high on the list. I had it number one

It's the best fast food I've ever had I had it for the first time A couple months ago When I was in Houston for the Rocket Story And I went there for the first time And I was like Hmm That sounds pretty damn good

So I got that I was definitely the best Best meal I've ever had However I'm disappointed That Chipotle's burrito bowls Aren't on there Like we have Chipotle But where is Chipotle's burrito bowls

Those are incredible Like I said, there should be an entire podcast devoted to arguing that particular list. But this happens to be the NBA shows. I will alert people, they did do a fast food list on the ringer.com that is well worth checking out so that you can get very angry about the choices. And Kevin O'Connor is represented with, I suppose, the only vote for the Wooda Burger Honey Barbecue Chicken Sandwich or whatever it was. All right, let's talk about some of the big news that has happened over the course. course of the last couple of days. Buyouts. So teams that, you know, the rich keep getting richer. This is the way that teams are

able to add to their rosters. And you had brought this up a couple of weeks ago that this may be the route for Cleveland. In the absence of having tradable assets, you would just wait until the buyout market comes to fruition and then be able to add guys. Already added Darren Williams. Andrew Bogot is evidently his, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, is being waived by the Philadelphia 76ers, and so he is going to have meetings with four different teams according to ESPN, Houston, the Spurs, the Cavs, and the Celtics. But let's get to the Darren Williams one first. Darren Williams goes to the Cavaliers.

I think this does move the needle for them. What say you? I think it helps for sure, and LeBron can stop, you know, whining about not having a backup playmaker on the team because Darren Williams is easily probably the best option they could have gotten. They worked out Kirk Heinrich, Lance Stevenson. I mean, come on now, right? And Darren Williams is going to fall in their lap after getting bought out.

It's great. I think it's really good for them because it's like we talked about before, Chris. The whole point is to help add a playmaker that can help ease the path to the finals. Darren Williams might play 25 minutes per game in the first round. One of the finals, he might not have to play at all. That's the whole point is to help them get there. and Darren Williams is a reliable veteran point guard, great in the pick and roll. He's exactly what they need.

And I read somewhere yesterday that according to Synergy and some of these breakdown sites, he is still an outstanding pick and roll player, right? So in the very basic form, you've got Darren Williams coming in. If you just ran pick and rolls with him, which you could over and over again, especially with that team, then he can really, really contribute to the team. and it's something he, you know, it's almost like I've seen him compared to an older Billups, right, where it's just a guy that knows exactly how to run this particular type of offense. And especially when you're, you know, in your backup situations,

you're not asking them to take over games or anything. But if he can just come in and run the pick and roll as effectively as he has throughout his career and so far this season, then that's a big, big bonus for them. because they haven't even had that going for them. And they've been having to play LeBron a thousand minutes a game. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, another thing that's a factor with him is he's a good shooter off the catch too. So, like, obviously LeBron and Kyrie are going to have the ball in their hands most of the time.

But Darren Williams has shot over 40% consistently since 2013. So look, Darren Williams, they're going to use them in pick and roll situations. He's going to take over the Delavidover role. But if they need him to play off ball, he can space the full. floor for you too. So I don't think he really hurts you in any way at all. He's a really good addition for them. All right, Bogot's the other big name that's hanging out there. As I mentioned, the four teams he's going to talk to. So Houston, the Spurs, calves the Celtics. Who does Bogot help the most?

I think the Celtics. I kind of want to say, you think the Celtics? How come? I think the Celtics, because of their desperate need for some toughness and rebounding, right? They get there are these moments throughout the game. There's these moments throughout the game. They can't get the damn ball. You know what I mean? And so, like, I don't feel like, I don't feel like Houston or the spurs or the Cavs have that kind of glaring weakness that the Celtics do.

You just can't go these, you know, several minute stretches without, you know, where it's like every time you miss, they get the ball. And every time they miss, they get the ball. I mean, you know, you got to, they got to have something in there. that can go snatch the rebound and, you know, the last line of defense is being able to get the ball back. And so they need that. And I think actually Bogot, of those four teams he's going to talk to, I think it would help the Celtics the most. But I feel like you were about to go somewhere different.

I want to argue with that. I mean, Amir Johnson stinks. He's not good anymore. Al-Hawford doesn't rebound for the Celtics at all. I mean, so they do need a guy like Poget. But I was going to say to Houston Rockets. And I think because they're the team where you look at them and it's like they have Clint Capella, who's a really good room protector, but they do lack that kind of enforcer type in Bogot. I mean, they're playing Montres Harrell a lot.

So it's like, I think Bogot is just an upgrade, right? And he's he's someone that could end up playing towards the end of game's, end of game situations on defense, even over Capella. So I think, I think, I don't, I don't think, you know, I'm not saying they're going to knock off Golden State. But I think if any team has a chance to do it, it's definitely them or the Spurs. And the Spurs, like you said, they kind of already have that filled. Whereas with Houston, I think Bogot would be a great addition for them. But if I'm Bogot, I'm definitely looking towards the east, whether it's Cleveland or Boston, one of those two teams. Yeah, and if he went to Cleveland, I mean, could grief.

What, they're going to have Darren Williams and Andrew Bogot. That's so unfair. It's ridiculous. The other guy's name is out there. It is what it is. All right, the other waived guy is Calderon. And Calderon's out there. It appears as if he's going to sign with Golden State.

And interesting story today that there were at least some within the Golden State hierarchy that are higher on Brandon Jennings, but it got too far down the road with Calderon. Like you would have never suspected that Brandon Jennings is just out there to be able to be attained. You know what I mean? Like nobody saw that one coming. And so there it is Brandon Jennings out there, but it's like, well, damn, we already are too far down the road on Calderon. What did you make of Calderon and the story that he's going to end up with the Warriors? Why are you laughing so hard? Because isn't the NBA great that we're talking about 35-year-old Jose Calderon going to the Warriors?

I mean, like, it's such like every single move in the NBA matters. Like, everything's under a microscope because you don't know when these guys will be needed sometime down the line. Like there could be a game in June where Calderon has to come off the bench. and score some points or make some plays for the Warriors in order to win of the finals. It's just a fun thought to think about. Like, every move matters for all these teams. Oh, trust me.

Hey, if there's ever a lesson I have learned in hosting a national podcast, is that you have to be aware of literally everybody, including... Rishon Holmes. I swear it is the bane of my existence. Like, somehow, the joke that is Rishon Holmes, at the beginning of the season, when you and I talked about Rishon Holmes, I didn't know who he was. Forgive me.

And in fact, I responded to a guy last night. He said, do you even cover the NBA? I'm like, wow. Forgive me for not being aware of the play of a guy that shot the ball 200 times and our entire season on a 72 lost team. Like, if that's the barometer for do you know the NBA, then I fear I don't, Kevin. Holmes thing is hilarious. And of course, you know, he goes off last night. He has a really good game.

And I stoked the fire by telling people not to tweet me about Rishon Holmes. So of course, the entire Philadelphia fan base decided that they wanted to tweet me about Rishon Holmes. And so I went from thinking it was funny to semi-resenting him, to loving him, to where, I think I resent him again because of what you've done. Well, look, man, he had a good night last night. 15 points. against the Warriors. I didn't see the game, so I'm just looking at the box score here. But man, Rashon Holmes playing well ever since they traded Noel.

He's getting those minutes, dude. Everybody's going to know him by the end of the season, I think. Sean Holmes is really good. All right, so Brandon Jennings is out there. I like the idea of Jennings with the Wizards. You and I talked about them needing to add something to the mix.

Once they get past their first five guys, there's a precipitous drop-off, and so it would be nice for the Wizards to be able to add something. I kind of like, you know, it's not like they're adding Michael Jordan or anything, but I think Brandon Jennings would be a good addition. I think that would be a good addition for the Wizards if that could take place. I mean, he can be a little spark plug off the bench, but I mean, he's Brandon Jennings.

He's still an interpicion spark plug score. I don't know how much he really helps. Well, listen, there's moments in these games where Trey Burke can't get it past half court. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the thing. he said to upgrade over Trey Burke and it's like you know we just talked about all these additions matter right like every single little improvement you can make could make the difference later in the season or at some point whether it's winning an extra game or winning a playoff

game it all matters and he's an upgrade over Trey Burke and ultimately that's really all that matters right you upgrade your backup point card position even if bernan jennings still isn't good really he's still an upgrade for what you have so that's a good move for them if they do one more waived guy louis scola is he totally washed up or could he help somebody? I mean, every time you think skull is washed, he turns it around and starts helping somebody. So I'm not going to say skull is washed up until he's like retired for five years.

All right, fair enough. So those are the names that are still out there. Throughout the season, we have been doing our awards. We did him at the quarter point of the season. We did him at the halfway point of the season. And now it's the three quarters point of the season. And so, The awards for the NBA.

All right, Kev. I have changed on my MVP. And I believe, no, it's not Rashan Holmes. I hate to break it to you. I think as of today, I'd give it to Westbrook. Okay. I'd give it. If this kid ends up averaging a triple double, which it appears, you know, all the numbers guys say there is a good shot,

that that's going to happen. I don't know where they're going to end up in the standings, but they've got a chance to move up clearly from where they are right now. Hell, they could end up with home court advantage, and I would not be totally stunned if they got all the way up to four. And you're watching these games, and he is just totally taking over. I mean, 15 and 0 runs by himself. He had 21 in the fourth quarter the other night.

I think Westbrook's going to get it. I do. I thought in the beginning of the season, yes, the numbers are insane, but the team's not going to be that good. I was wrong about the Thunder. They are better than what I thought they would be this year. And he's just gone total supernova. And I think if you look up at the end of the year and he's averaged that triple

double, that he will get the award. What say you? So on Westbrook, I think the additions they made at the trade deadline are definitely going to be nice. I like McDermott for him. I know he has a lot of flaws as a player, but helps their spacing. That's going to create more space for Westbrook to do what he does. So I think Westbrook could definitely have a big second half. And I'd be surprised if he doesn't get the triple double.

I think he's definitely going to get it. I don't think there's any way at this point in the season that he's going to start slowing down. I just don't see it happening. But with that said, my guy is still James Hard and Chris. I haven't moved off him. And it's just largely, I think, like we talked about before, because of the efficiency is the score. James Harden is a high volume score, but he's also super efficient.

Westbrook is a high volume score, but he's very inefficient, and that's just really the difference for me. I look at what Hardin's doing, 11.3 assists per game. He's killing it, passing the ball, but he's also averaging over eight rebounds a game. If we want to look at the counting stats, right? If we're looking at counting stats, he's not too far separated from Westbrook. It just so happens Westbrook has a couple more rebounds,

but Hardin far exceeds him in other ways. And for me, in some ways, like, I don't think it's close in terms of one and two. I get Hardin one. And then after that, it's kind of just a big jumble of, like, Westbrook, LeBron James, Kwai Leonard. I'm not really sure how to order those guys. I'll end up with Westbrook, too, because he's having just this ridiculous season that I've never seen in my lifetime, and we may never see again. But Hardin's the one for me, and I really don't see that changing.

All right. So I've got Westbrook. Harden, sixth man of the year, looked like it was going to be that Eric Gordon had made the big push, right? Once he had got moved to the bench and he was killing it and Houston was killing it. And then they added Lou Williams

to that mix, who Lou Williams was already having a really, really good season with the Lakers. He's leading them in scoring and now he's playing for the good team. I kind of feel like Lou Williams might end up being able to get that award by virtue of what happened at the trade deadline.

I think you're right. Honestly, I think if you look at... I don't think he would have gotten it in L.A. He wouldn't have gotten it in L.A. Look, I mean, if you look at the counting numbers, right, like points, whatever, I think he exceeds Eric Gordon and almost everything. And I think now with Houston, there's going to be a lot more attention on him in terms of he's on a contending team, right? So he's going to be replicating the same exact production that he was putting up in L.A.,

which was really good. He was one of the best pick and roll playmakers in the league this year. And now he's going to be doing that on the Rockets where they have the best spacing in the NBA where their pick and roll attack already has James Hardin and Eric Gordon's pretty damn good himself too. Adding Lou Williams to that, their trio of those guys is really, really strong. And it's hard to choose between those two at this point in the season. But I kind of do lean towards Lou Williams just because of his ability to playmake a little bit more than Eric Gordon. But it's really close between them.

I don't even know who the third guy would be. It's really just a two-man race at this point. Code to the year? This one's tough, man. I thought a lot about this morning. It's hard. I mean, there's like a couple guys you can say, and then you can look at the under-the-radar options,

like Scott Brooks and Quinn Snyder, and it's like those dudes deserve some attention to. Mike Dantonies out there. How much you, Chris? Who's your choice? I think, I think it depends on where they end. up in the standings, but if a team that is perennially not, it usually goes to somebody that has improved a team dramatically, right? And so you have two teams here that could very well get

home court advantage in the playoffs whose teams were not playoff teams last year. And maybe, and it wasn't necessarily all because of coaching that they weren't playoff teams. They've improved their rosters, or in the case of Washington, Bradley Beals healthy. But I think Scott Brooks and Quinn Snyder, if either of those do get home court advantage with their respective teams, those guys, I think one of them will probably win because that's the way that award usually goes, rather than rewarding ultimate excellence. I suppose Dan Tony would have a chance at it too because of the wins improvement, but it's usually a very simplistic who improved the most from last year.

And the Wizards look to be on track for that. Utah seems to be on track for that. and Houston seems to be on track for that. So just given the standard that has been set over the years, whether I agree with it or not, I would say that those three would probably be the favorites, again, if we're doing it today. If we're doing it today, the three-quarter season award, I think it would be between those three more than likely. See, I don't think Quinn Snyder is going to win. I just look at that.

I have a feeling he's going to be glossed over. People aren't going to realize how many injuries they've had. Their original starting five has started like only 10 games together. Because at one time or another, everybody's been hurt, whether it was George Hill, Derek Favors, or even Hayward missed some games earlier the year. Like, they've suffered so many different injuries and yet they would still have home court if the season ended today. I just, I can't get off Quinn Snyder as the guy that I kind of lean towards just because how well they played despite all the injuries. Like there's so many options. Like we didn't even mention Eric Spolstra, the turnaround of the Miami Heat.

Like, they are right on the edge of the point. playoffs right now in the east. And if they sneak in, I think a case could be made for Spolstra. In a way, like, you look around the league, there's a lot of good coaching in the NBA right now. And you juxtapose that against the NFL, there's not a lot of good coaches in the NFL, whereas the NBA, it feels really strong right now looking around the league. Yeah, I think I'm with you on Snyder as of today. They would have home court advantage, and he has been dealing with all kinds of injuries all year long and to still be in that right now. People thought they were going to be a good team, but I think he's done a really good

job with that team. Rookie of the year, it was 100% shoe in for Embed, but now who knows if he plays another game the rest of the season. And if he misses, you know, he's already on a minute's restriction and wasn't always playing back-to-backs or wasn't playing back-to-backs. And so now, if he misses a quarter of the year, you know, did that, can he still win it? If he doesn't, if he doesn't play another game, could he still win it? I don't think he should if he doesn't play another game. And like if the season ended today, you know, we're at three-quarter point, he's still, he's still the rookie of the year in my opinion.

But if he doesn't play at all by the end of the year, it's hard not to make a case for Malcolm Brogden from the Milwaukee Bucks or even Dario Sarich, who is just absolutely killing it this month for the Sixers. So I think those two guys by the end of the season, if M.B. doesn't play, have strong cases than Joelle because he's played what like 31 games i mean it's hard to give it to him despite his immense production in that stretch and i love joel i think he's a beast and he should have made the all-star game but only 31 games out of 82 that that's a really hard case to make yeah i don't think you can give it to him i'd give it to broggden sucks as of today yeah as of

today i'd give it to brogdon's awesome yeah i think sarge could make a run right like yesterday in in my article, I mentioned how Sarich could make a run. And there's tweets like saying, Brogden's the guy. It's like, yeah, right now, Brogden's the guy. But the way Sarich is playing these last couple weeks for the Sixers, he's been awesome. Like, he looks, he's averaging like, high, like 18 points in game or something like that, like close to a double double, and he's making passes like he always did overseas. He looks like, he looks like the guy that played for the national team.

And that's a really good thing for the Sixers, because I think he's a, I think he's a better prospect than people give him credit for, just because he does so many things well. And we're really starting to see that this month from him. D&B stuff's scary, man. I mean, because he couldn't even, you know, he couldn't make it through this. He couldn't make it through this season. He's already missed two seasons. Now he couldn't make it through this season. It's not like he's been, he took on some kind of full load. I mean, he had a, he had a very reduced role as compared to what a normal NBA basketball player would have, and he couldn't make it through this year. Just scary, man.

I talked to an executive at All-Star, like, of another team other than the Sixers. And we talked about Embed, like, just how much of a shame it is that he can't play. And he's like, obviously, it would be good for, you know, all the other teams if Embed isn't dominating for the Sixers. But as a fan, as a fan, that's sad, right? It's just sad if we miss out on Joelle Ambide at, at, like, just the elite level he can play at. And the player he brought up is, like, it would be a shame if he'd, turn out to be like a Bill Walton type where he has like two one or two or three years where he is

clearly the best player in the NBA where he is clearly one of the greatest big man of all time but that's all we get and I hope that's not the case though because I want to see him be dominate for 15 20 years I just do I think I think it would be a shame if we don't get that yeah I agree with you uh defensive player of the year draymond we're on board with that right yeah I'm on Dremont, even though Rudy Goberry could make a case for him. I think Dramon's the guy, though, just because his versatility. And most improved Yonis. I mean, he went from a guy that had made an All-Star team to starting the All-Star

game. Yeah, it's Yonis. And besides that, like Otto Porter, Nicola Yokic, but it's Yonis for me. I think the only thing we really agree on is MVP. And I think I'd give it to Westbrook today and you'd give it to Hardin. Yeah, I wonder if the vote will turn out that way, too. where there's a strong consensus because I feel like there's like a strong vote for each one

Oh there will be But those two They will be one and two And I'm not saying that Delance shouldn't be in the mix And that LeBron shouldn't be in the mix And all kinds of great players Kauai These guys should all be in the mix

I'm saying When it all comes down to it Number one and number two in some order Is going to be Westbrook and Hardin Barring something Bananas happening The last 20 games of the season I think so too

it's definitely going to be with those two guys who do you think actually wins like who do you think the media is going to vote for between them you know Hardin's already gotten the overlooked thing I don't think there's ever been a year where Westbrook was in the mix

and he got overlooked per se right that somebody wanted and people thought it should have been him and it took this totally out of body experience season from Steph Curry a couple years ago to take out Hardin. Hardin could have won it two years ago,

for sure. He had no chance at it last year. But two years ago, Hardin had a great case to be the MVP, and he didn't get it because of the Curry year, right? And so the fact that he's been on the doorstep, I think gives you, you know what I mean, like right when you've been there on the precipice, and somebody looked at it and said, wow, there's a great case for him, but I'm not voting. voting for him that maybe it's a little easier to break through, just psychologically for voters. But I think it's going to be hard as hell to look at that sheet and see a triple double being average for an entire season and be the guy that said, you know what? I don't think the guy that averaged to triple double and 30 points a game deserve the

MVP. I feel like you could talk your way out of Hardin. I think it's a lot harder to talk yourself out of Westbro. Like, I think it's, I think it might be, because you can come up with other cockamamie stuff. I love them as a competitor or fourth quarter scoring or defense with game on the line, whatever. Like there's a lot of things that I think you could say like extra stuff that you like

about Westbrook. Whereas, and again, I'm not saying it's true. I'm saying you're trying to make up an argument to validate it. I just think that it is so hard to argue. against the guy that averaged 30 points a game and a triple double over the course of 82 games, that that's what would, that's why voters would just say to hell with it.

Because what, like, there's no great argument against either of them. There really isn't. There's no great argument. They're both having these insane seasons simultaneously. And I think to try to make an argument strongly against one of them being the MVP of the league, that's just goofy. There's no one.

I mean, come on. They're both. We should go to co-MVPs. Not bad idea. Co-NBPs is lame, man. I hate co-M-BPs. You hate co-Mvips. So lame.

I don't like that. It's lame. Just pick one. Just make a decision. Come on. Hey, hey, you know what? I did. Westbrook.

Now you're happy? Now you're happy, dumb ass? I know. I know. I know. Oh, now you want co- MVPs, don't you? No, see, I think Westbrook's going to end up winning Just because people are going to glance at the stats and say,

Oh, wow, triple double! And he's going to win. So I think it's going to be Westbrook, but my vote's going to be for Harden, if I get a vote, which should be cool. On the ringers fast food list, the Honey Barbecue Chicken Sandwich is the James Hardin of fast food sandwiches. That's why he's getting my vote.

Well, you were the only one that liked it, too. I was so damn low on the list You voted at number one And it was what Like number 30 something 37 37 They're like throw O'Connor's shitty choice in there somewhere Throw him a bone

Make it feel good Make it feel good about himself Check out that list FastFastFood dot the ringer.com The 15 most important guys In the Eastern and Western Conference We'll chat about that We've all taken jobs to earn extra cash.

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So go ahead and get your side hustle on. Sign up to drive with Uber today. Go to uber.com slash drive now. That's uber.com slash drive now. U-B-E-R dot com slash drive now. All right, Kevin, so yesterday on the ringer.com, it was posted your 15 most important players in the Eastern and the Western Conference for the rest of the season. Now, you picked a guy from all of the different teams, but if I put the screws to you and I said, all right, who do you think is the most important player? Of all of these, you surely had stronger feelings about their level of importance as compared to the other ones you wrote about.

Do you think there is a most important player in the Western Conference? It's probably KD. It's probably LeBron in the East. I think that's why I wrote the shortest paragraphs on those guys, because everybody knows they're all already super, super important. So, I mean, it's those two. For the Kevin Durant thing, I just want to see them run pick and roll. with him and Curry. That's all I want to see. I just want to see those guys run pick and roll together and see how defenses react to it.

But I have a feeling we're not going to get that often until the playoffs. Now that we are three-fourths away into the season, and their record is admittedly totally ridiculous, right? I think they're what, 40 and 9 right now, something like that. Has your opinion changed? They're 50 and 9. Forgive me. They're 50 and 9. has your opinion changed at all as to the level of competition that can be posed against them in the playoffs? I think teams can at least compete. I think the Rockets and Spurs could really go, I don't want to say toe to toe, but I think they could take it to six, maybe take it a seven. I think those teams could compete.

I mean, look, I still think there's a chance the Warriors absolutely smoke everybody and have like a 16. in one or 16 and two playoff record, I still have a feeling that could happen. Like if they catch fire and if they're just rocking on all, they're just killing it. I have a feeling they could come close to going undefeated in the playoffs. I know that's outrageous to say, but they have that upside, right? Like we talk about with draft prospects, they could become the next blank, right? With the Golden State Warriors as a team, they have that upside. It's just all a matter of will they be clicking at that level come playoff time?

So I think the Spurs and Rockets can compete with them And then obviously the Cavaliers and the finals could too But the Warriors still have just crazy crazy upside as a team Okay, well what about the fact that Blake Griffin has come back and is doing more? I think more of what you thought he was capable of And since he has come back from injury he has been fantastic for them Are you not persuaded by the way the clippers can look at full strength their bench sucks still

I just think I think their bench is going to get smoked like by all those top teams like we talked earlier about the Rockets and the addition of Lou Williams and how much he'll help them they have they have the leading to six minute of the year candidates on their bench

and they could add Andrew Boggart potentially whereas the Clippers you look at that their bench and it's like Austin Rivers Raymond Felton Brandon Bass like come on now I think I think they need

Blake to be playing at this ridiculous level to really have a shot. Because I just don't think they have the depth. And I think that's what's really going to create a difference for these teams over the courts of a playoff series. Their bench is just going to get pounded. Encourage everybody to go check out Kevin's articles, the 15 most important players in either conference the rest of the way. But another thing that I wrote down that I wanted to ask you about was you wrote

down the, you had rookies for some of these teams. You had Brandon Ingram. You had Chris Dunn. I believe you had Marquis Chris You had Darius Arch as you mentioned For the Sixers And there were rookies spread throughout these important players list If I go back

And I redo the NBA draft right now Because you write these draft guides And as I said You included these rookies on the list If I go back and I do the draft Today Who's the top three in the draft? Do you think Ben Simmons

Still goes number one if we redo the draft let's say we held the draft tomorrow night does Simmons go number one still I mean Ingram would have my number one pick in the first place but I think the Sixers would wouldn't move off Simmons I think it would still be

Simmons I'm saying the way it played out Listen I know who you liked I'm saying it played out with Simmons one I think it would say the same I think it would be Simmons one Ingram 2 Brown 3 I really think it would stay the same Wow

If anything would change maybe the Lakers would think a little bit more about Jalen Brown, right? Maybe they'd think about him, but I still think they'd end up going Ingram too. You do. Do you think it still goes Dragon Bender 5, or I'm sorry, Dragon Bender 4, Chris Dunn? No, definitely not Chris Dunn. Definitely not Chris Dunn five. I'm not sure who would elevate to that spot, but maybe Jamal Murray or something like that.

I just don't see Chris Dunn going top five if we held the draft tomorrow. And Bender, Bender, I think, would stay around the same because the sons knew what they were getting. They knew they were getting a guy who's a long-term project. So I can't imagine that changing, but Chris Dunn definitely. He has not looked good at all. Man, I really loved him in college, too. There was a lot to love. So fast, so dynamic, can score from different levels, like when his shots on.

And he was a hound on deep. defense and call. It's just a lot to like about him. I'm really surprised. I'm really. Yeah, I know. Yeah. And rookie point guards, it's just, that is, it is a big mistake to judge guys on their rookie years. It is like point cards. But man, he hasn't shown a lot. He really hasn't. Like I was hoping to, I was hoping to see more flashes than what I've seen so far. That's, that's what I'll say. I think that's what you want to see, right? And that's kind of what I alluded. to in the article, and for the Western Carpins, it's like, from Chris Dunn, we just need to see some flashes over the second half of the season when he gets opportunity. And those flashes

aren't necessarily like highlight plays. The flashers are, are him slowing down and like putting a guy on his back in the pick and roll and making an accurate pass. Those are some of the flashes that we need to see. And there haven't been many of those at this point in the season either, which is really, really in a way surprising to me. I thought he would be a little bit more along. at the stage of the season. But I mean, I think with his age, people thought he would be more ready than actually he would, because he had a weird development path in college with his shoulder injury and all. All right.

Let me ask you about one other thing from the Western Conference. You, of course, made Boogie Cousins one of the guys to keep an eye out for. You and I both thought that the Pelicans could make a run and possibly get that eight seed after they acquired Boogie Cousins. It has gone very poorly so far, and there was for sure going to be growing. pains. Is there any way, and here, we can do the quick overreaction, is there any way that the Pelicans actually got worse with the Boogie Cousins trade? I don't think they got worse, right? To answer your question, I don't think they got worse.

However, I don't think this is like some trade that guarantees that two, three years from now, we're not talking about how the Pelicans need to trade Anthony Davis. before he leaves in free agency. I'll put it that way. I think there's a chance this still goes terribly wrong. And a couple years from now, we're just wondering where Davis is going to go next. I hope that doesn't happen. I want those two to dominate together.

I mean, those guys, Davis and Cousins, could be the best big man pairing we've seen in many, many years. And I hope it works out. I saw you put out a stat the other. I saw you put out a stat that you tweeted out a stat the other night. I almost fell on the ground. It was something like... Oh, that was incorrect. I think that one was incorrect.

I deleted that. Oh, you did? Was that the assist stat? Yeah, you said they hadn't had an assist with them out on the corners of... That was like a search error on stats at NBA.com. Oh, for God's sakes. Error by me and error by the site. I deleted it within like 10 seconds because I don't like to spread misinformation.

Kevin, good grief. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, whatever. Jesus. In this era of fake news, who can I trust? You're fake news. You're fake news, O'Connor. Amen.

Amen. Unbelievable. We all make mistakes. Good grief. Fake news, Kevin O'Connor. With that said, with that said about the stat being incorrect, these guys do need to find a lot of chemistry. There has been a lot of ISO from those guys.

guys. I feel like they need to figure out how to play well together. I just want to see more pick and roll with them. More 5-4 pick and roll with cousins handling the ball and Davis rolling or popping. How do you stop that as a defense? How do you stop a pick and roll with those two dominant bigs that can do literally everything on the floor? I want to see more of that. I think that's hard to install though mid-season. That's something that might not come until the summertime and then we see an reveal next year. Stop trying to talk your way out of tweeting Falstette O'Connor. Hey, man.

Clean it up. Kelly Ann Conway, that. Clean it up. Clean it up, O'Connor. All right. Let's get to the Eastern Conference. I must tell you, I watched Indiana the other night, and of course they got that big win against Houston last night.

Now that they've got all their guys healthy, I don't think they suck, Kevin. I don't. I know that there's kind of like, ah, Pacers are lame, and middle of the pack team, and Paul George's been bitching all year and whatever else. But, you know, Thad Young was back, LaVoy Allen was back. They're no, I'm just, they're not like... They're like three and seven in their last ten.

I get you. But they also, listen, hold on now. Two out of their last three, yeah. Yeah, you hold the phone. And they wallop to the Grizzlies and then turn around. Winning at Houston ain't an easy proposition. I'm saying, once they've gotten their guys back,

I was just saying from watching them now that they've gotten healthy, when they bring guys off the bench, it's not a bunch of shitty players. They got some pretty good guys on that team. And maybe I'm just persuaded by what I've watched recently, but in between watching them beat the Grizzlies and then turn around and beat the Rockets last night, I don't, you know what I mean? Like, I think my opinions changed a little bit.

And if they end up being, if they go on a little run here at the end of the year, it wouldn't be all that shocking to me. I really, I was kind of impressed by them when I watched them the last couple of times. Yeah, they've definitely been better. They have the dunk champion, Glenn Robinson, who won probably the worst dunk contest I've ever seen. And he repeated the same dunk.

Sorry, that's just an aside. Not a fan of the Glenn Robinson dunk contest win. Anyway, as for the Pacers. Al Jefferson's still out. But Paul George, Miles Turner, Jeff Teague, Thaddeus Young, C.J. Miles, Rodney Stucky, and then they got Monte Ellis, and they got, you know, LaVoy Island, whatever.

I mean, they got, I'm just saying, like, they're not, that's not a crappy basketball team. No, it's not. They have talent, man. I think, I think the key really for them was figuring out how to make that talent work together. And moving Ellis to the bench was definitely a good step forward for them and improves their spacing in the starting unit. Despite the fact, Thad Young also isn't that good of a three-point shooter at the stage of his career. They have better spacing by moving Ellis to the bench. I think they have better chemistry in their back court.

Will they sustain this? I'm not convinced. I'm really not. I still think they're just a bubble playoff team at best. I don't expect them to make the jump like a lot of people did before the year. Maybe you're right. And maybe what we saw against Houston is the start of things that come. But at the same time, that loss last night, it's really just about the Rockets missing shots, right?

They were 10 of 45 from 3. They're going to have nights like that where they just can't put the ball in the hole. but they're also going to have nights where they just light it up. And I just think last night it was more about just missed shots from Houston than anything else. I think Indiana has been better, but I still don't think their team that's going to make any noise at all in the playoffs. Fair enough. Well, noise is now maybe a different term than it was a couple of days ago, given the Kyle Lowry injury, right? because I think, you know, with your 15 intriguing players

or 15 most important players in the Eastern Conference, would you have changed, you had Serge Baca as the Raptors representative, would you have changed that if you knew the Lowry injury? And I know they're saying Lowry could come back by the playoffs, but a wrist is obviously not what you want to have going on if you're a point guard and the ball is, and you're so high usage and the ball is constantly in their hands.

So they're saying you get back to the point. playoffs, but that still, you know, they'd have them back for the playoffs, but who knows what their seed is now by the time they get to the playoffs, Toronto. Knowing the injury for Lowry, would you have changed your important player to the Raptors? No, I wrote that Ibaka thing before the Lowry injury, to be honest with you. I don't know if it's actually even, like, important because then it'd be the best player on each team.

But it's more like important in the sense that Ibaka, this final stretch of the season, is really about seeing him develop chemistry with his teammates come playoff time, seeing how he's integrated on the defensive end of the floor. And they've been playing a lot of small ball units with Ibaka at the five and maximum floor spacing. And they look so damn good on the defensive end. The ability to switch all screens, guys like PJ Tucker, who looks great. I mean, before the All-Star break, they were not a good team when Derosen was on the floor without Lowry. They had like a minus six net rating or so.

but they're they're really really playing well without laurie now and a big part of that is de rosen is absolutely awesome on offense but it's also that their defense has been damn good between behind the acquisitions of ibaca and tucker so at this point with ibaca it's just seeing how he develops within that unit on both ends of the floor i hope bogut doesn't choose cleveland if i'm being honest with you because you know i i talk myself into while it's hard to talk to yourself into somebody being so competitive with the Warriors that they could win a series against them. I especially with the whole love unknown had talked myself into maybe we do get a Game 7 in a Boston series or maybe even a Toronto series or maybe even, you know, in a wizard series. They're starting to build up these teams that I thought might be able to be very competitive against Cleveland.

If they add Darren Williams, if they had Williams and Bogot, I think that I don't feel that way anymore, and that stinks. So here's hoping he chooses somebody else to make that more competitive. I think it would be fun seeing him to go against Raymond, though. You do?

Yeah, it would be really fun. Yeah, if he likes getting kicked in the... Revenge on his team for trading him for Katie. I'm glad you brought this up because this is the last. thing. You have been a nard kicking defender. When Draymont has repeatedly

kicked people in the nards, you've been one of these, you've been one of these guys with the natural motion, there's videos breaking down that he does it all the time, blah, blah, blah, right? Nobody ever wants to admit that he's just a

serial nard kicker. That being said, He's laying on the ground the other night in the game against the Clippers, and he damn near tries to kick Blake Griffin straight in the head. I will ask you, as I have you on the stand right now, and I am the prosecutor, do you believe Draymond Green attempting to kick Blake Griffin in the head was natural motion? I need a lawyer. Where's my lawyer?

Actually, so, okay, look, what I said was, I feel like I feel like I'm defending myself from like a teacher's yelling at me and I got to fight at school or something like that What I said was What I said was Some of Draymond's kicks

When he comes down from a rebound Right His leg naturally swings upward Those ones are natural However the one against Blake Griffin the other night That was really really bad That's a bad look man Those are the unnatural one

ones where it's like. Okay, okay, okay. So he does, he has natural ones and unnatural ones. That's where you're standing. Yes, okay, because, okay, here's my thing. Here's my theory, right? He, he has always done these kicks, right? So for him, a lot of them are natural when he comes down from rebounds, right?

But I think, like you look at old pictures of Dennis Rodman or other guys rebounding the ball, sometimes they kick their legs out to really just try to create more space. And it's kind of dirty in a way when you think about it. Obviously, as we've seen with Raymond, kicking Stephen Adams in the balls and nearly decapitating Blake Griffin. But I think sometimes he embellishes it. And that's when it gets him in trouble is when he really just, I don't even know what's going on through his mind.

There might be nothing going on through his mind. It just might be the way he's playing the game. and that's something he needs to get out of his game. But with that said, my thing is we need to be careful about considering every single one of his kicks or anybody else's kicks when they come down from rebounds as dirty. I think that's my hang up. That's my hang up. We need to be careful about going too far with the rule or else it becomes the NFL where every tackle is considered helmet to helmet, even though a player might have dipped their body down, right? We need to be careful about going too far down because I think it's a slippery slope.

Kevin, allow me to make myself more clear. Do you believe that Draymond Green can control his own legs? I hope so. I hope he's in control of his own body. All right, the prosecution rests. Oh, boy. Kevin, hey, enjoy all the best while this week. I want to encourage everybody to go to the ringer.com and read Kevin's articles about the 15.

most important players in the Eastern and Western Conference the rest of the way. You demand. We'll catch up with you next week. Thanks, Kev. Hey, see you, Chris. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA podcast. If you dig what you're here, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you on Thursday. Thanks again to Uber for sponsoring today's episode.

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