The Ringer NBA Show - Ep. 81: Bogut's Injury and Kawhi's MVP Moment With Kevin O'Connor

Episode Date: March 7, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss Andrew Bogut's bizarre injury (5:00), Dwight Howard vs. Dennis Schroder (10:00), Kawhi's MVP moment (22:00), and Gordon Hayward's superstar season (36:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringers Gaming podcast, Achievement-oriented, and our wrestling podcast, The Masked Man Show, are breaking off from Channel 33. You can now subscribe to each of them on iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, or wherever you get podcasts. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Joining me as he does every Tuesday is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer.com. Kevin! Chris, last night was fun, wasn't it? Well, this was an unexpected wild night in the NBA. Let's go through these one by one.

First big story is Andrew Bogot makes his debut and immediately breaks his leg, which was, I mean, this is, what was it? Like, the last time I could remember this is like, it was like when Romo came in and played in the preseason and on the third play, you know, broke his back, right? It was like, wait, you just got to play. And Bogot's first appearance in a Cavs uniform. and it's over and obviously they're not going to have him for this stretch run. That was, you never like to see anybody getting hurt. And the circumstances of that were as bizarre as I can remember in a long time. Is this the end of his career?

I mean, think of all the injuries he's had. And serious and, you know, nagging injuries the past couple years. He'll be 32 next year coming off of a fractured tibia. Is this the end for Bogot? I don't think so. Or is he still effective enough that he gets another opportunity? No, somebody will still throw money at him, especially because he's 32. Big guys, you know, as long as he is capable of getting out on the court.

Now, obviously, this has been, I mean, his whole career has the question. He isn't, he is an interesting what if, you know what I mean? Because he could have had a much better career than he has had because of, I mean, injuries have just saddled him the entire time. I mean, how many, if we're talking about number of, what do you think the most games Andrew Bogot ever played in a season was? Do you think he ever played over 75? I'm going to look this up. I didn't think of it until right now.

I have his stats open right now. The answer is 82. Oh, he did play 82. As a rookie, he played 82. He did play. The Milwaukee Bucks way back in 2005, he played all 82 games. And he started 77. Then there's another 78 in there.

third year. I'm looking at it now. And then you're talking 60s, you know, mid-60s virtually every other year, except for a couple years that were just totally lost. Wow. It's just, you know, the severity of some of those injuries, though, right? Like the ones that he had with the Warriors, the one he just had with Cleveland, the nagging injuries, like the one he had all year with the Dallas Mavericks, like he's had before with the Warriors. I just wonder if there's a point where teams look at him and they say maybe we'll give him the minimum, right? Unless teams view him as a guy like they can sign him to a one-and-one contract and use him as potential trade bait the following year,

regardless of injuries. And if they get something out of him, then great. That's the way I would view him this summer for teams that may or may not be interested in Bogart. Well, and the other thing now is the most minutes, his second year with the Warriors was the most minutes he's averaged in a long, long time, like six years. And he averaged 26 minutes a game. So he is, I mean, and these last couple of years, you're talking about 23.6 minutes, 20 minutes.

So he's clear, and even with Dallas this year in the 21 games that he started for them, and he played 26 overall, he averaged 22 minutes. So he is an under 25 minute player. So, and who knows, right, after coming off of this injury, yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe I'm wrong. Maybe somebody's not going to throw money at him. So Bogie got hurt last night. Do you think he was going to move the needle a lot?

for the calves anyway? I mean, like, he would have been a nice piece to have, right? Because despite the fact he's not playing as much, he's still huge. He's still, you know, a good room protector, still a great passer. He still had value, and I think he definitely would have helped Cleveland. He would have been an additional big man weapon for them to have, especially in situations when Thompson was off the floor. Is there any other big guy that they're going to go try to get?

I don't know. I don't know if there's anybody out there that would really move the needle like Bogart could. Is this the return of Larry Sanders? Remember that story came out a couple weeks ago that he was wanting to get back in? Larry Sanders, I mean, everything you hear about his workouts that he's had already, though, was that he seemed out of shape. But, you know, maybe a team like Cleveland, they can afford to, you know, take a swing on him and maybe get him into basketball shape

by giving him opportunity during the regular season and then maybe by the playoffs. Who knows? He could be right back to the athletic rim-running, rim-protecting big man that we've saw a few years in Milwaukee. Yeah. All right, other things that happened last night. This was a weird headline night. Dennis Schroeder has 23 points for Atlanta against the Warriors. He's leading the team in scoring.

He gets into it with Dwight Howard in like the start of the third quarter, a little bit into the third quarter, and Boodenholzer takes him out and just banishes him to the bench for the rest of the game. Reporters go up to him after the game, and he's got some things to say about it, saying they need to get it together and they need to talk about this and he didn't agree with the coach and whatever but it you know i think this this particular year unlike the last say decade like we haven't seen a lot of dwight drama you know there's been some shrewder drama right where he is he came back from the all-star game late then he was late up for that bus in Orlando but we have Dwight Howard has been in less headlines this year and part of it's the team he's playing for

and he had been in, you know, first he was a superstar, so he was always a story, and then he was playing for the Lakers, and then he was playing for Houston. But it always feels like he was omnipresent in headlines. This has been, there's been a dearth of Dwight Howard headlines, but there we have last night, while this team's in the middle of a playoff run, him and Schroeder getting into it, Budenhouser throwing Schroeder on the bench for the rest of the game against, you know, the best team in the league.

this was this is just a bizarre thing to happen with less than 20 games left in the season right I just thought that play was hilarious especially especially the camera view like it's zoomed right in on howard and shrewder like like you think you know if you're watching the game from home you assume like oh somebody called a time out and they're just arguing as to go off the floor but it's like no game action is still going on and stephen curry the best shooter of the league has possibly ever seen has the ball in his hands and he nails a three or There's just really a perfect moment. And really, I love the Hawks.

They're just throwing darts right now, I think. Right? Like they're starting five two years ago was unbelievable. And they don't have four of those guys in just two years. They've lost four of those starters. Al Horford, Kyle Corver, Damari Carroll, and Jeff Teague. They're not the same Baby Spurs team that we watched two years ago. And really, what they are, it's just an average team.

And it seems like they're on a steady decline, and maybe they fall even down the standings in the east because they're not playing well at all. And it feels like, I mean, this has been a struggle. I know they got rid of Teague and they moved him off to Indiana. But Schrooter has weirdly been in the, he's been in the headlines this year for weird stuff. And I think that says a lot when Bouns are kind of, I mean, I guess if you're taking sides, he took a side last night. and that's obviously not necessarily what you want from your coach point guard relationship. No, definitely not. And I think that was the risk they took.

I think everybody knew Schroeder had risks last year when they signed into the contract. They did. However, the deal was good value for them, just $15.5 million for four years. So it's like he has a low dollar value. He's a low risk. But at the same time, they still lost the point guard that they once had, which was Jeff Teague, cool, in my opinion, not a great point guard, but still a better player with Shruder. So it was a hard decision for them to make. I don't knock them for that decision at all because Shruder's

younger and probably has higher upside, but we're already seeing the risks and we're seeing the difficulties that they're having really meshing as an overall unit. You know what my reaction was, right, when I saw it all play out, was like, and then Boodenhosa just throw them on the bench for the rest of the game. Like, God, man, like, I don't know enough about Dennis Schroeder. I don't want to do a character judgment. But if I'm being honest, I'm watching, I'm like, what a prick he must be because, like, who has ever taken Dwight Howard's side in anything? Ever. The guy's been around forever.

The coach is like, hey, yeah, I'm on team Dwight. Like, no one has ever said that, I don't think. So something's up with that Shrewder kid if you're taking Dwight Howard's side and stuff. That's a good way to look at it, I suppose. Yeah, I don't know. I don't want to make, I don't want a character assassinate the guy, but I do know his coach threw him on the bench. for the rest of the game in a, he's leading the game in scoring and they're playing the best team. Like, they had a chance to win that game against the Warriors.

They did. And he was having the best game. And coach was like, I don't know, I guess message he was sending, I suppose. Speaking of frustrated point guard, Isaiah Thomas last night really vented after a double-digit loss against the Clippers. There's a Clippers stretch against the Celtics last night where they outscore the Celtics. one to 14 spanning the third and fourth quarters. And Isaiah Thomas after the game said, it's game 63. We can't be experimenting.

And obviously is taking a shot at the lineups that they are using or the rotations that are being played. And then when pressed, this was the smart thing because you know he was at pinnacle frustration. When the reporters all pressed him like, hey, are you talking about the lineups? Are you talking about the rotations? He just went silent on it, right? He said what he said at the beginning with the whole we can't be experimenting.

Everybody knows how to draw from it, but he wasn't going to expand on that. And I think in a moment of real frustration, there was some wisdom used by Isaiah Thomas there because you know, and especially in that Boston media, you don't want to turn this into a Thomas versus Stevens thing. That is a bad road to go down, especially in the stretch run of a season when they've got a chance at the two. seed. I mean, Isaiah's not wrong, though. There was a stretch where Jordan Mickey Terrier is there and James Young

were all on the floor at once. And it gets the Clippers that's probably not the best team to experiment against. So Isaiah is going to point there. But at the same time, right, Brad has to look at the big picture. And in many ways, sometimes you need to keep those young guys fresh

because you don't know when you'll need them later, right? So come playoff time. They'll shorten their rotation to eight guys. and Brad will have his rotation set. But there may come a time where you do need that rookie to be sharp, to come in ready to play. Not just rookie, but young player to come in ready to play, right? So I think maybe that's part of it.

Steven's getting experience for those younger guys because they might pay off later down the road. Will it? I don't know. I mean, I'm not a James young guy. I like Rozier a lot, but he needs more consistent playing time than order to get into a rhythm.

And Jordan Mickey hasn't really improved as much as I would have expected. at this stage of his career. But I get Stevens doing it, but at the same time, Thomas, Thomas does have a legitimate gripe about that. I'm on the side here too, because you are in a playoff race. And again, you can play one of those guys with the other starters and get them experience. It's the combination of all.

When you're rolling it all out there and it's clearly a loser, right? I don't think that you can hide behind the, we're just trying to get them experience. You can get the, you can stagger young guys into the lineup. Hell, he's done it with Jalen Brown. He's done it with him. He's gotten him into the, as the season goes on, you've gotten more and more of Jalen Brown. And clearly he has progressed to the point where he can contribute, right?

But when you're going to throw out. And Jill's better than those guys too, though. Well, of course he is. But I'm saying it's the combination of when you throw out all three out there and then they get their ass kicked and under the guys of, hey, I might need them at some point. Like, come on, man. That's why I'm kind of on Thomas' side here.

It's game 63. It's not game 33. It's game 63. And you want to have home court advantage, right? You don't want to be playing a game seven in Washington against your rival when you have the opportunity. Because that, we could, you know, Kevin, we could be on a collision course for that. Those teams end up two and three. And they win their respective first round series, which they would certainly

be heavily favored to do. You know, the idea that you would have to play a game seven in Washington because you dicked around in a game against a clippers and rolled out a bunch of guys that never played, that would make me mad to if I was on the team, you know? You're right. You're right. And that's where it comes back to bite you, right? Like people talk about how it's, oh, it's a long season.

It's just one game. And it's like, no, just one game could change the course of the entire year for you, right? You could end up that three-seat in the season. that two-seated and then that comes back and gets you in the second round of the playoffs so you're you're totally right about that chris that i think i think in terms of the big i mentioned the big picture for brad stevens really the bigger picture is those playoff implications that that just a short series could have on one game which ultimately makes a difference in the standings and therefore the playoffs that's why i think it does matter

that thomas you know that he he expressed that it's game 63 right enough with the BS It's game 63. We don't need to be trying to figure everything out and experimenting at this point in the season. And it's a coach is right to do whatever he wants to. But I also, I think Thomas did a pretty good job of getting his point across because if he expands on that, then it could have gotten nasty, but now it'll just kind of go away, right? He made his point. He expressed his frustration, and then that's the end of it.

And here's betting that we don't see that combination of guys that got run off the course. the other night by Brad Stevens. I don't think Brad Stevens is a bozo, and only a bozo would do that again and expect a different result, right? I think that's the first time I've ever heard the words bozo and Brad Stevens used in the same sentence. It might be the first time you've heard bozo in a long time. I'm going to bring that back, too. No, no, no, I'm a fan of the word bozo. I'm a big fan.

I've heard that word a lot in my life, and I think it should be a word that's brought back to the forefront of society. Bozo is a great word. I agree with you, too. Of course, I agree with the words I've said. Let me get to Kauai Leonard. Nothing is funnier to me that Kauai Leonard pulling off some superhero stuff last night at the end of the game. And then they immediately drug test him after the game, which is hysterical. It is the equivalent of a guy going out and hitting five home runs.

And then before he can go talk to the media after the game, they're like, Hold on a second. Come in this bathroom. And then just to read the reporting of it. Okay, so let me just get to the piss test first. To read the reporting of it, they say that they, before he could even talk to the media, it was a mandatory drug test, right? Nothing is funnier than him having a mandatory drug test after what took place.

The 39 points, the dagger three, the monstrous chase down block from behind. Like, everything he did was superhuman. It felt like down the stretch. And then that's, it just happens to be the time that you get a drug test. Like it's, like I said, it's equivalent to hitting five home runs and like, oh, that's the night I have to get tested for drugs. So, and then he goes to take the drug test and according to the reporting, he couldn't piss. Like he had to go, like drink. I think, I got the, I got the impression that he had to go drink stuff.

Like they were saying because of mild dehydration, it took a while. So basically they were like pissing this cup. And he's like, hey, man, I just sweat for two and a half hours. I don't really have to take a piss, right? And anyways, they end up drug testing the guy after the game. And I can't, can you remember, maybe I'm just forgetting. But can you remember a time where a mandatory drug test for a star NBA player was reported on? No.

I can't, I can't recall it. I don't remember any time. I don't recall a single time. Yeah, I can't remember that. Because if it ever happened after a game like that, that was unbelievable. Like, it's just totally random. It was just the night. Like, that's just bizarre.

I think that's probably why we haven't heard about it, because there's probably, there probably hasn't been a situation where a player has put on, this is my MVP performance and then gotten drug tested. It's probably been instances where it's been like, oh, typical 25 point night, eight rebounds, but not like the heroics we saw last night. So everybody was reporting on Kauai. Everybody wanted to talk to Kauai last night, right? So maybe that's why we heard about it.

But, you know, still though, I can't get over that night, Chris. I can't get over that night he had. That was just, that was really an unbelievable performance by him. that clip of the last whatever it is, 13 seconds, I mean, draining the game winner and that three, and that's not an easy shot he hit. He's doing it off the dribble going to his left, and he nails that. And then when he gets, if you go back and watch it, of course, I've watched it a thousand times just because it's so unbelievable.

He gets screened like right inside half court. and it's like when he turns after after that screen like you know rubs him and he turns to chase him down it's like I mean like LeBron's the only other guy that you see do stuff like that he just tracked him down like it was like they were in the wild or something I've never seen anything and then just been the damn thing it was so awesome just absolutely awesome and it is this it feels feels like that was a massive moment regarding the MVP race because you know that one guy,

at least unless you want to count Westbrook, the conversation, for the most part, has been about Russell Westbrook and a possibility, James Harden, and a possibility. And now Kauai is starting to get a little talk. And you have that kind of performance last night, which everybody's going to see the last 13 seconds. Keep in mind, the spurs were down 16 after the first quarter in that game. So they came back from a big deficit, and then that all happened at the end of that game. But it feels like, you know, it was more than just a highlight. It does feel like last night got him to the forefront of the conversation like,

hey, man, maybe people should be talking about Kauai Lenter being the MVP of the league, right? Yeah, and it's a good thing that it has because, I mean, You know, you and I have talked a lot about Westberg versus Hardin, but the other guys in that conversation are really Kauai and LeBron, right? Those are the guys who are better defensive players on generally better defensive teams, right? And it's not like Kauai doesn't, you know, score, right? He's not just a defensive player. He's not just the defensive player of the year candidate he was before. He still is that player, as he showed last night with that crazy chase down block. But he's a go-to scoring presence now. He's averaging more. points per game than any spur ever in the Popovich era. More than Duncan, more than anybody else. And his usage percentage is second higher than anybody besides Tony Parker from a couple years ago. So they're leaning on him as a go-to scoring presence really more than anybody they ever have before, even more than Duncan. And with that reality in mind, factoring in his defense, it's like, how is this guy not a most valuable player candidate? So last night, I think, maybe

it took that sequence for people's eyes to open up like, hey, this guy should be in the conversation right there with Hardin and with Westbrook, because it's more than just that sequence. It's not like he hasn't been doing this for the Spurs the entire year. He's really been the player that's carried them to where they are, which is the two-seat in the West. Kauai is the reason why they are the team that they are. And I think that sequence really made people realize we should be really focusing on him as a potential candidate. So I feel like Kauai Leonard should have been in this conversation a lot longer than maybe we've put him in this conversation. And it's funny, you go look and obviously the PER player efficiency rating stat has been around forever.

You look right now, Kevin? And I said we're throwing Durant out. The top three in PER are Russell Westbrooks having the best season, Kaui Lender number two, James Harden number three, and then obviously LeBron's like down at number eight. But I think most people will consider even if he's not having the best season. season, LeBron is, he's the guy that everybody would pick first to start a team for, you know, if you want to go into the playoffs this year. Do you think it's just, I mean, it's just playing San Antonio.

He doesn't have some kind of gregarious personality by any means, but I don't know. At least last night it does feel like he totally jumped in the conversation and now going down to the last less than 20 games in the year, there's going to be a real argument. there's going to be people on the Kauai side, and this vote could end up being split between those three guys or possibly four guys more so than we have seen in a long, long time. I mean, this is whoever ends up winning this MVP this year is going to be nowhere close to unanimous. They weren't going to be even before you know that Kauai Leonard's going to get more votes now

than he probably would have gotten. And I do think that that moment last night, maybe it shouldn't have been, but it threw him square in the middle of the conversation, right? I just think, you know, so like getting back to like why he wasn't in the conversation really as much as he was after last night. I just think it's because defense is just harder to look at, right? So with offense, like you can see Westbrook is averaging a triple double. But that's points, rebounds, and assist. It's easy to register. You can see James Hardin is almost averaging a triple double with 29 points, 11 assists, and 8 rebounds.

That's easily observable. Well, with Kauai, it's like 26 points, six rebounds, and three assists. It's a lot harder to see his defensive impact on how much of a difference he makes on that end for the Spurs. And last night, like, it was a highlight of his defensive impact. It was symbolic of what the impact he makes really the entire season, because the problem with some advanced stats, is that blocks and steals are nice, but they aren't necessarily correlated with strong defense. And even like some of the advanced data we have for defense, like some of Synergies data, you know, points per possession allowed, even that isn't the strongest indicator of defense

because it factors in three point percentage. And every study that's been done about three point percentage shows that it's essentially random. So like, sure, it's nice to get a hand in a player's face and that, does impact a three-point jump shot, but it still mostly comes down to the result of the shooter, right? It comes down to whether he makes or misses. The defensive player doesn't make as much of an impact on that success as people think. So defensive stats are hard to look at. It's hard to know what good defense is just looking at data. And that's, I mean, if we really want to get into it, like that is also a thing for NBA teams, too, with all the advanced data they have from

Sport View cameras, not every team. has the strongest defensive metrics. And in some senses, maybe that's where the eye test is simply important when it comes to understanding what great defense is and who the most impactful defensive players are. And if we are using the eye tests and we are looking at what Kauai did last night, it might be Kauai Leonard still. And that needs to help him in the MVP race. I think your second point is the greatest.

There's more smart people writing about basketball than ever before. And so he will, all those numbers will inevitably be thrown out there to make his case. But I think your second point is the most important. And it might mean that everybody's shallow. We are, right? We live in a highlight world. His game does, and it's much like Hardin versus Westbrook, honestly. The game is not built for highlights.

He's not the guy that has, you know, like, Kauai Leonard is never the guy that's going to get you. you're never going to put up a Kauai Leonard play and get 2,500 retweets until last night. You know what I mean? Like you could just you could put you could put up one of 25 Russell Westbrook plays every night and everybody's going to see it. Right. Last night was by far the most that any highlight sequence of Kauai Leonard has ever been passed around outside of possibly like in like a big playoff game or something like. like that, right? But in terms of he's not a highlight player and we live in a world where so much of our information is now consumed by these, by clips. And a clip will show you the, the, the,

ridiculousness of Russell Westbrook more so than it does James Harden or it does. I saw, I'm not kidding you. I saw Willie Cully Stein's missed dunk more times. Didn't you? I saw that. I saw that shit more times than I have seen any James Hardin or Kawhi Leonard highlight until last night. So you're bringing up an interesting point, Chris, because so last night on Reddit, right? You know, top plays or posts on Reddit all the time. The top comment on the Kawhi Leonard hits the clutch three and then gets the chase down block. The top comment is something that I've felt for many, many years.

and I'm just going to quote the commenter, Raptors Bucket Nader, shout out to him. He said, these are the sequences that should be nominated for plays of the year. This is seizing victory by the balls at its finance, much more satisfying than a poster dunk for me. And I agree. What Kauai did last night, that three,

and then the chase down block, that should be on the highlight rail for what makes basketball great. Not some poster dunks, not Willie Kali Stein's almost incredible soul seizing dunk over Rudy Gobert. It was a beautiful play, but it's not as unbelievable as what Kauai did last night. And these are the plays that I really wish people would see all the time,

and not necessarily the dunks and things like that. Well, by the way, regarding the Collie Stein, A, he missed the dunk, B, they lost the game to Gobert on a tip in. Like, if you, again, that's the only outside of the Gobert tip, right? Like, that's the only other thing. If you weren't watching that game, those were the things that the average fan that was not watching that game consumed from that. You would have known that Collie Stein tried this ridiculous dunk against Gobert. And then you might have seen that, oh, yeah, Gobert won the game on a tip in.

And yet, you know, again, even yesterday, I was still seeing people, you know, throwing around like, wow, Collie Stein tried to kill Rudy Gobert. Well, like, yeah, he did try to, but he didn't even make it. And so the point is, even a highlight that's not really a highlight, gets thrown around more so than plays that would be made by Hardin and Kauai. But I think that I don't think it is misguided to represent that Kauai being on a highlight that everybody that cares about basketball will see matters. And then it's like, hey, maybe. And it's sad because even we're doing it. Like, all our conversations haven't included Kauai.

Again, I freely, I take that lump. But after last night, it's like, hey, maybe you should go investigate a little bit more what this guy's been doing because he should be talked about being an MVP too. And it's all because we saw, like he had that highlight moment. He's been great all year. but he hasn't he hasn't been a guy that's been on the top of our mind all of the time because of his lack of highlights and that's probably unfair and he's you know again like he's he's he's totally silent right he is he's just a bring your lunch pail go-to-work guy he's like Marvin

Harrison right like Marvin Harrison's never going to get the attention well I guess God forbid until he like whatever allegedly shot a guy at a car wash unfortunately but um Marvin Harrison was never going to get you. I'm surprised you went to Marvin Harrison. No, but you know like how Marvin Harrison. I was thinking, I was thinking Tom Brady, Mike Trout. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You got a Marvin Harrison.

No, that's who I'm. Marvin Harrison was like catching 150 balls a year and nobody gave a shit. That's why I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Because Marvin Harrison, to 99% of the general population, Marvin Harrison could talk like this in a post game. and no one would even know the difference. No one even knows what his voice sounds like.

Do you know what Marvin Harrison's voice sounds like? Yeah, I do because I grew up a Patriots fan. I remember the Patriots beating their ass all the time. You don't know what his voice sounds like. I remember the Colts complaining and changing the rules. Marvin Harrison could have an Australian. Yeah, I know. But Marvin Harrison,

you've never seen a Marvin Harrison interview in your life. He could have an Australian accent. You wouldn't know the difference. That's all my. That's my point. though, right? That is the greatness that is, because he's not in your face, because he's not on commercials, because he's not, right? Like, he, like, he didn't have the, he didn't have all the other stuff that makes people attracted to him. He was just great. I was not expecting that we talk about Marvin Harrison on this podcast. There you go. I'm saying Kauai Leonard is like Marvin Harrison. Silent greatness. There you go. There you go. That's fair. Stop acting like you know.

He doesn't have the commercials like Peyton Manning does. No, he doesn't. All right, Kevin, I want to ask you about that Gordon Hayward article you wrote, but first these words all this month. We're asking you to tell a friend about a podcast they'll love. Right now, think of a friend, your mom, anyone you care about, what podcast would they really love? Got it?

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been featured on Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine, and the New York Times TechCrunch CBS, and why it's got over one million businesses. using it. And right now my listeners can post jobs on ZipRecruiter for free by going to ZipRecruiter.com slash Ringer. That's zipRecruiter.com slash ringer. One more time. Try it for free. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash Ringer. All right, Kevin, you wrote about Gordon Hayward. The superstar Gordon Hayward, 22 points, 5.5 rebounds, 3.5 assists, and is having this unbelievable season. His highest field goal percentage of his career, 47% highest three point percentage at 38% and could very well be the most sought after free agent. What do you think has happened with Hayward in year number seven that has caused this leap?

I think the cynic would just say, yeah, of course he's having his best year. It's a contract year. A lot of guys do in their contract year when there's $200 million on the line. But just in terms of basketball-wise, why do you think that there's been at least, least a minor leap for Gordon Hayward, who has been good over the last couple of years, but this is clearly his best season. I think the same thing that's happened the past six years, really, is that, or even going back to college the past eight years, I think Hayward has just gotten progressively better every

single year that he's played basketball, right? And we're seeing now that he's taking another leap to a guy that's a maybe not a superstar. That might be a little bit of an hyperbolic statement by me. But I think what we saw in February, is a glimpse of superstardom, right? They really fed him the ball over 18 times per game. He scored over 25 points per game, and he maintained his great efficiency as a scorer. And I think, you know, if you look back at Hayward,

every year of his career, he's had a month or a stretch of the season that was kind of a preview of what he would do the following year. So last year he had a stretch towards the end of the year where he averaged around 22 points per game, just like he is this year, right? And this year he's had a stretch where he averaged 25 points per game. Is that what we see from him next year?

Maybe. Don't know that for sure. It'll require the opportunity for him to do it, but I think it's a distinct possibility that that's the next step that we see from him. He might be 26 years old. He'll turn 27 later this month, but that doesn't mean he can't stop getting better because he's gotten better every single year of his career,

which is a really cool thing to see, and for him to have his first all-star appearance, I think that really put him on the map as this is a guy who's blossoming as a star and he's still getting better. You mentioned two other guys whose names came up at the trade deadline that are outstanding wings in the league,

Jimmy Butler and Paul George, right? Who would you want of those three? Would you want Gordon Hayward over either of those guys, George or Butler? Are we factoring in salary or just strictly player? Let's just say the wrong matter. Let's just say, let's just say, All right, listen, if we made them all eligible this upcoming off season, they'd all get the max.

So let's just say they're all max. So salaries even. So I'm going to give like kind of a wishy-washy answer here because it's super difficult to answer. I think within their situation, within like their current team construct, the situation we observe them in, I'd rather have Butler than Hayward than George. However, if you put Paul George on the Utah Jazz and you put Gordon Hayward, on the Indiana Pacers, maybe Paul George looks a whole lot better than he already does, and maybe Hayward looks a little bit worse, right? It's really hard, hard to know that without

seeing them in the situation. So I would say Butler, then Hayward, and then George, and the reason why I'd say Butler is just because I think he's an extraordinary defender, right? It kind of goes back to what we were talking about with Kauai, that Kauai does things on the defensive end that are hard to look at in the stat sheet, and it's the same thing with Jimmy Butler. Hayward's a good defender and Paul George is not as great as he once was but he's still pretty good. So I would give Butler the edge for that reason, but Hayward is a lot closer than I think people would give him credit for. They're all kind of in that class where you sit back and wonder, can they be your best guy? Can they be the best guy on the team? And I think I'm a little

more convinced that the other two could be the best guy on the team rather than Hayward. I mean, this is the first winning team, like real winner that Hayward has been on. And I know, it's year seven and who knows if he stays with the jazz going forward or not and I'll be interested to see what he does when the bright lights are on and playoff time well you brought up a good point you brought up a good point

about the whole all NBA thing it's going to be tough for him to make it I saw our boss Bill Simmons say that he would have him third team all NBA right now which is interesting there is a tremendous amount of competition for that, but that you noted if he makes all NBA, he could get five years 220 million,

then hell yeah, I'd stay. I mean, what are we talking about? $40 million, $40 million a year. What? Wait, no, that's $45 million a year, right? Well, hold on. What'd you say? He'd make close to $50 in the final year of that contract.

Yeah, you said it was five years, $220 million, right? Isn't that what you said? Yeah, he'd make close close to $50 million in that final year. Oh, my God. So, yes. Hey, Kevin, yes, I would stay. For $50 million. So if you really break it down, right?

If you really get into the money in the years and option years and the best, the best contract he should take depending on if he stays or or gets all NBA. It's not as much of a difference as you think. He's still going to get a ton of money, regardless of what decision he makes this summer. I use her on Twitter, Ryan Bernardino, Ryan Bernardano,

don't know if I've ever said his name out loud. At Danger Card on Twitter, tweeted out a good spreadsheet yesterday that really showed the differences in the money that he would make over like the next six years. So if he stays in YouTube, and he makes all NBA, he'd make $225 million through 2023. If he stays with Utah and doesn't get all NBA, he can make $222 million.

And if he signs elsewhere, he could make $219 million over the next six years. So it's not as big of a difference as you might think, depending on the deals that he signs and the optioneers that he uses. Obviously, it's signing that five-year extension would give him more security than those other options. though, and that's ultimately the big difference and why I think Utah would have the edge. But really, like, I was surprised Bill Simmons said that he would put him third team all NBA because a lot of the other choices out there, like Anthony Davis, would you really put Hayward on over him? Would you put him over, over Draymond Green?

Right. I don't think you'd put him on over LeBron, Kauai, Durant, or Yonis. So there's four. If Davis is considered a Ford, which I would argue that he shouldn't be, but I think he will be, there's your fifth. So do you put him over Dremont or Jamie Butler? I don't know. Would you, Chris?

No. I wouldn't either. But I would certainly, I would also, in fairness, I would not argue vehemently over it. To me, it is not, it is not some kind of 100% shoe in. And I could be persuaded to. And I will say this, as someone that has covered a team in a small market for a long time, I am always on the side, especially when the team is good of the guy staying in the uniform. I have a big heart for the fans.

And I have seen, you know, the guys like Zebo and Mike Conley and Marcusaw stay in uniforms when they could have gone elsewhere. And so for a Utah fan, it would be totally heartbreaking for Hayward to go somewhere else. Like they just got good, finally, right? And so I'm one of those that really hopes he stays in a Utah Jazz uniform. for the fans' sake and you know it's not like i mean he's going to make a lot of money and they're they're right in line to get home court advantage this year and i don't think that they're going to be getting worse in the years to come i think they're going to be getting better in the years to come so he's got a super competitive situation um a fan base that totally loves him he's having

an unbelievable season he's getting the accolades he deserves and he can make more money than you know i mean he could have he's going to make a quarter of a billion dollars for god's sakes he stays there. So I hope, I mean, think about it, a quarter of a billion dollars. What a world. What a world. Gordon Hayward. You know, you know what's funny?

Like, you brought up how fans would be crushed in Utah, which they obviously would be. Hayward's amazing and he's integral to the success that they're having. But the funny thing is, it's like, so when cousins, before Cousins was traded for years, Kings fans were like, no way, not going to happen. boogie's not going to be traded for that garbage that you think they're going to get and then they trade him for buddy healed bulls fans kind of seem like the same way like there's no way that we're going to trade jimmy butler right but then like you look at pacer's forums like on the pacer's reddit when the paul george rumors were coming up around the deadline people were like okay you know what maybe this is for the best because he's going to leave and then you look at utah jazz forums with gordon heyward they seem to have like a distinct understanding that hey he could actually actually leave. Like, there's, there's no denial from jazz fans that it's a real possibility that he could leave this summer. And I just find that really interesting. The differences in the fan bases,

with the reactions to trade rumors or free agent signing rumors revolving around their stars. I don't know what that says, but it's just really interesting to me. Well, here's hoping that he doesn't. Kevin, I'll keep up with everything. Do you know what you're writing for the ringer later this week? Are you writing anything else? I got something coming out Wednesday that touches on like a review, two week, three week review of the trade deadline acquisitions. So it'll touch on everybody from Bogdanovich to Boogie to Taj Gibson and all those guys. I can't wait. Thanks, Kev.

Thank you, Chris. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes. We will talk to you on Thursday.