The Ringer NBA Show - Evaluating the Young Cores of the Hawks, Raptors, and Pelicans After Summer League. Plus: The Grizzlies-Clippers Trade. | Ringer NBA University

Episode Date: August 16, 2021

KOC and J. Kyle Mann first address the trade that went down this morning between the Grizzlies and the Clippers, which sent Patrick Beverley, Rajon Rondo, and Daniel Oturu to Memphis for Eric Bledsoe, and how each team’s young players might be able to help them this upcoming season (1:00). Then they talk about new additions to the young cores of three NBA teams: the Atlanta Hawks (17:00), the Toronto Raptors (27:45), and New Orleans Pelicans (40:00). Finally, as summer league winds down, KOC asks J. Kyle Mann rapid-fire questions about their favorite young players from the tournament, including Franz Wagner, Jonathan Kuminga, Davion Mitchell, Josh Primo, and Day’Ron Sharpe (50:55). Hosts: Kevin O’Connor and J. Kyle Mann Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Gene and Roger is the story of the two most powerful, influential movie critics of their time, Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert. You can find Gene and Roger on the Big Picture Feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's a quick trailer. It seemed like a crazy idea for a TV show. Take two rivals and let them duke it out about movies. But Gene Sisko and Roger Ebert quickly became the most popular film critics in the country. Millions of viewers tuned in to see whether they vote thumbs up or thumbs down.

This is the story of two unlikely superstars who changed the way we argue. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Brian Raftery, and this is Gene and Roger. Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Ringer NBA show, my name's Kevin O'Connor. Summer League is almost finished and here to discuss today is the ringers Jay Kyle. Man, what's happening, Kyle? Not too much, Kev. I feel like it's been a while.

We spent a lot of time together there for like a couple months, you know, with the draft and the playoffs. I was seeing you regularly, and I see you now, and you clearly are like a weathered party animal. You've been out on the West Coast, having a great time. I said you saw a good band. You were, you know, I wanted to ask you about your pictures that you tweeted, really rubbing it in my face. You went to Momofuku. You've been out just touring the world, my man, and having a good time. I'm jealous.

I was in Vegas for a handful of days to see Summer League, a bunch of meetings and all that. Vegas was interesting. it's definitely still Vegas, just plus masks, and then spending a couple of days in L.A. doing some apartment hunting here and saw Mount Joy at the Creek theater. You're fan of Mount Joy, Kyle? Do you know that band? I honestly don't know a ton about them. I know that's some of your crew, your people, right? You like them?

Big Sixers fans in that band. Matt and Sam, shout out to them. Huge, huge Sixers fan. They're all talking last night, all worried about the Ben Simmons situation. We all be discussing Ben Simmons, say nothing new to discuss. We are going to talk about some of the younger teams in the league looking to take a step forward this coming season and how their draft picks have performed in Summer League.

And then at the end of the show, we're going to answer some rapid fire questions about the rookie class. But first, there was a trade on Sunday night. Got the phone notification. It's Wojjj and he says, Patrick Beverly, Rajan Rondo, and Daniel Otero are being traded from the Clippers to the Grizzlies

for Eric Bledso. And like, on paper, this is like a big pooh-poo-nada trade here, Kyle. But there's big cap implications here. Bobby Marks had a tweet last night really laying it all out for the Clippers. Their tax bill is going to drop from $125 million to $95 million. They create an $8.3 million trade exception. And then with Eric Bledso, next year, his salary is only guaranteed for $3.9 million. So $19.4 million.

dollars next year, but only 3.9 million guaranteed. Maybe that could be a good trade chip for them. And then for the Grizzlies here, I mean, that says it all, doesn't it? It's like what's said minutes after he tweeted out. You know, they're going to figure things out. Not so sure if Pat Bev and Rondo are going to be there for long in O'Turo. maybe he'll be able to work himself into the garbage time rotation like he did occasionally with the clippers. But for L.A., the tax, you know, that's important here. And I do think it does give them a bit of flexibility for like if Kauai, if they think Kauai could return for the playoffs, maybe deadline time or next off season, they do have a little bit more flexibility now. Yeah.

It seems like that bill's going to come down quite a bit. and for them it does make sense on that level. And you keep bloods all around. He's much lower stakes because of what they have in place, I guess. And he's sort of just something that you can sit to the side and be like, hey, maybe we'll get something minimal out of him. We don't have to depend heavily on him. He's been in the playoffs.

That's the thing with inefficient players is if you use them, they kind of become these situational cards that you could play. Like if, I don't know, pick your card game, Magic to Gathering. I don't know. You could just throw it. in at some random time and it could have situational use maybe, but who knows, it probably won't end up. I mean, the Pat Bev

Memphis thing is funny. He tweeted out, Grit and Grind. He's pumped. He's fired up. This is a match man in heaven for him. I mean, the brands align, don't they? Right? On paper? For sure. What do you think, I mean, do you think that either one of those

guys have any kind of a role? I mean, Rondo is a guy that I kind of pegged as having some similarities to young John Moran. and the way they play? I mean, what do you think the dynamic is there between those guys and what Memphis has going on right now? I mean, for the Memphis side of things,

this is just, you know, they're just placeholders in the sense that like your blood so they didn't want to be there. And ultimately, Rondo is in a stage of his career where he wants to play for a winner. So maybe at some point there's a move, maybe at some point there's a buyout. With Patrick Beverly, you know, the same thing really there. I still think someone like Beverly could have some value to get flipped.

For the clipper side of things, you know, but what's always pretty good for the bucks during the regular season until things collapsed during the playoffs two years ago. With the Pelicans, it was an awful year, low effort. That defense was an utter disaster. He's going to turn 32 this year.

And like I said, he could become a free agent next year because his deal is only partially guaranteed. 32 years old in December. Is there, do you feel like there's anything left in the Eric Bloodsoe tank? Can he salvage? you know, his career,

and get another, you know, possibly big contract. Is there something left? Not a big contract, no. He's a hard contract, like 10 to 15 million.

Can he prove himself this year with the Clippers? Like, do you see anything left with him? In playoff situations, it just really hurts if you're, if you have a guy like that out there.

I mean, especially the way he likes to play. He's just so if inefficient when you put him next to a star. I haven't looked at like his finishing efficiencies, whether they've, where they've gone in the last few years. years. Like I said, it's just weird to, did he come into the league as an older rookie? It's

like really hard to believe that he's 32. Because I feel like he was in, is John Wall and DeMarcus cousins 32 as well? Because they were in the same class. Bletso was the 2010 draft, 21 years old as a rookie. Wow. Wow. Okay. How crazy is that? That's hard to believe. That's a long time ago. Yeah, but he was a little older there. So that, okay, that makes sense that he would be at this stage. I mean, I don't think so. I mean, I don't even know if he could get that mid-level deal. Maybe it's just, maybe we've swung really hard the other way where we're like underrating his use if it gets repurposed because he's had sort of a precipitous fall from like this guy's like sort of a lower level, you know, usage. Like he's, he's a guy that carried a

decent moderate level of usage. And I think he's just kind of shifted to another phase of his career because he's not the same nuclear athlete. He's had the same, he's had some injuries. I mean, Do you share that opinion in terms of like what kind of contract he could get? I mean, like that that's an unknown here for him. But I do think last year we saw Nick Batum. We saw Reggie Jackson go to the Clippers. Pretty good. You know, it was a good car wash for them.

You know, they come out of that season looking pretty good. Now they have Eric Bledsoe, Justice Winslow, Jackson back. Like these guys are going to have opportunities and minutes to restore a little bit of that value. or at least, you know, maybe recalibrate expectations with what they can be in a winning context. Because plug Kauai Leonard back into that situation, some of these guys can work. And I think that's going to be the, it's not a blessing in disguise that Kauai Leonard is going to miss the entire regular season and possibly the playoffs with a torn ACL. But I do think there's a bit of a silver lining here in the sense that you are going to get an opportunity

to see a Justice Winslow. Can he stay healthy? can he do some of the things you saw from him a couple years ago before injuries really started to pile up because he has not been good with what we saw the last two years. But he had a good year before that. Bledsoe solid for the regular season with the Bucks. People had him in all defensive conversation for first or second team all defense, maybe in this winning context, you know, or a team that has winning expectations despite

Kauai being out, he can help himself. And then you add on the fact, they have some pretty solid young players. Jason Preston point caught out of Ohio has had a pretty good Summer League. I like him a lot, super smooth on offense. Keon Johnson, first round pick has really struggled offensively, but the defensive effort from him has been really fun to watch. And then your guy, BJ Boston, he's had himself some moments, has a 2.5 million guaranteed deal.

Has any of the Clippers young guys stood out to you through Summer League? the guys that you mentioned for sure with keon i think we expected that there's a lot of um with summer league we'll go down the line and kind of go line by line with some of the guys i know and be more specific but with summer league you really just have to take so many different things into consideration like what types of players do well in summer league typically i was kind of going back and looking at historically uh if there were any sort of historic deep summer league statistical deep dive well I was just, I was, I was at a glance. I didn't spend that much time, but just looking at the full

spreadsheet, Kyle. No, I didn't run any models or anything like that, but I mean, like, just the types of players who tend to thrive and if those can create sort of misleading narratives and things like that, I was just looking to see a lot of times, like really confident, high risk tolerance, like self-creators can give you some, some results that can be misleading. I was thinking back about like Jordan McCray, Josh Shitt and Selby, guys like that, they can go out and get baskets in that context because in the chaos and the lack of organization, they can do well. But in terms of them, I mean, yeah, Boston had some moments looking at his numbers, his dribble shooting percentages were pretty wretched.

It's interesting that he got that guaranteed deal where he did, though. And I think L.A. is a good spot for him. I guess we didn't really get to talk about it after the draft. He's closer to home, you know, especially with his situation. where he is right now. The fact that he got that guaranteed deal at that spot historically, I don't even know if there have been many cases of that happening. Did he go 50th, I think?

It was pretty late. Yeah, it was late in the second round. And on the other side of this, with Memphis, looks like they're, you know, maybe they'll try to take a step forward here from playing into, you know, a solidified playoff team. But this team is young. It's a young team. They drafted Zaire Williams, the 10th pick. and then they traded into the 30th pick to take Santiago-Alima.

Zaire Williams, that's a guy that you really, really loved out of his freshman year at Stanford. I like him not quite as high on him as you are. In this summer league, the numbers haven't been great, just like they weren't at Stanford, averaging 12.5 points per game, shooting 38% from the floor, shooting 20% from three. He's had himself some good moments. you know, have you wavered at all

about your belief in him as like a tall, lanky score based off what you've seen from summer leagues, I still feel the same. I'm still very iffy on his upside. Neither of us have really moved. I mean, in terms I guess the question is what do you think his upside is? Or what do you

think I think his upside is when we think about this? Because I think that his upside is catch and shoot player, slasher off the catch, defend multiple positions, like shoot dribble pull-ups, like off the, you know what I mean? Like, if he doesn't have a three, shoot a dribble pull-up, things like that. I don't, he is very far away from being a self-creator. He is very far away from being any kind of like a high-level decision-maker in traffic.

In transition, he is not good. Like, I mean, he loses the ball a lot. He, yeah, like his ball control in general, but I do expect him to be a decent catch-and-chew guy in the NBA. and I still feel the same way about him in that sense. I mean, I don't expect him to be, I had a conversation with some Memphis people. I was like,

they were like Paul George comps for him in high school. I was like, I never know. It's more like he's going to be like a like a multi-tool sort of, I hate the three and D cliche thing, but I mean, he's going to hit threes and defend multiple positions. That's what I expect.

And next to Jha, that's okay. Yeah, right? I mean, like that's, that's an okay thing. If that's the baseline expectation. And if he becomes more than that, you know, that, then you're talking here. Then you're talking about like a perfectly, you know, complimentary core there with John Morant and a six foot eight, you know, score who can

create off the dribble if he becomes that. I do think, you know, to your point, Kyle, granted he didn't shoot three as well in Summer League. You know, it's, you know, fairly stiff mechanics, you know, hopefully that can work out over time. He's not a poor free throw shooter by any means. He looked good attacking closeouts, like you said. One thing I found fascinating is he told Chris Vernon on his local radio show a couple weeks ago that he's on like a 5,000 calorie a day diet. And he's been doing that for months now since pre-draft. And he's like, I've only gained like six or seven pounds. How's that even possible? You know how jealous I am of him, Con? He's one of those. He's one of those. He's one of those people. Yeah, I don't, I can't relate at all. I do 5,000 a day,

but the results are a lot different. I'm just saying, um, gain six to seven pounds per day. Yeah, he's, he's a guy man. I mean, like he has really skinny shoulders too. So it's like how much he's going to. And it affects him as well. Finishing around the rim defensively does need to grow in that sense. And then with the 30th pick, they traded up or in to get that pick to draft Santi Aldima who this summer league. How would you describe how Sandy Aldenna has performed, Kyle? Well, this has been a he shot 10.3% from the field. So we're talking like early early rookie. year Poku efficiency number is bad. He looks, my whole thing with him was, I remember on our pre-draft pod,

I said that I expected him to be like a late second round or maybe even like a two-way type player, but one that was worth the gamble. Memphis was, I didn't have the guts to say that he was like, you know, early second round. And also we had to be careful,

man, because the results aren't fully in yet. So we can react all we want about these things. How does he look today? I know, I know. I'm just like, yet, well, they screwed this up.

That's what, I don't know. We don't know yet. So, I mean, he still moves well for his size. He shoots an easy ball. I was kind of trying to. Right. I was trying to pay attention to. I just think that he looked a little surprised by the speed and the length and the strength of the competition. He looked a little bit unsure about where his normal spots were, where he would

normally get his offense. He has good touch, though. It's just, it's a long game. I don't think anything shifted with him. I mean, he went three for 29. He just, he looked a little lost. I remember, Namaius Kada particularly sort of really surprised him a few times in the game I watched. That's another thing.

I wish he'd gone and played high major D1 competition so that we could have seen that better. I don't know how that's going to affect the way we see him. It's a long game with him, man. I still like some of the glimmers that I see. His misses weren't like, you watch some guys and you're just like, this dude cannot shoot at all, you know? Yeah, he he deserves time. The feel, I mean, granted, you know, playing for, like you said, he's adjusting to the size and the speed and the physicality of the NBA because he played at La Loya, Maryland. Small school.

Like, this isn't, you know, major D1 school. He's not facing the Kentucky's of the world, you know, and getting that level of competition and that experience. The feel for the game is there. And over the course of time, maybe he's able to adjust and to that physicality and that speed and become. I'm a player, but for Memphis, this was a long-term bet, right? He's still only 20 years old, so you need to give that time. But let's move on to the Atlanta Hawks. They're fascinating here because, of course, they make the East Finals,

lose to the bucks, but heck of a run for them and Trey Young. They've drafted Jalen Johnson, a 6'9 forward with a 20th pick, and then Sharif Cooper, who many people expected to go into the first round. They got him with a 48th pick, a 6-foot-one guard, signed to a two-way deal for them. You know, this Hawks team, I'm looking at their roster, Kyle, and Jalen Johnson and Shereve Cooper, both in their own respective ways, have performed pretty well this summer league. Their team, guys under 24 years old. DeAndre Hunter, 23, John Collins, 23, Trey Young, 22, Kevin Herder, 22, Cam Reddish, 21, on Yek Aokongru and Sharif Cooper, both 20, Jalen Johnson, only 19 years old still. this is a like there's better you know elite young cores possibly but i don't think there's a deeper

young core in the NBA than what the hawks have especially if jalen johnson pans out ends up a steal like he looks like right now based on a summer league performance how how would you assess their overall group of young players like you said i mean it's it's pretty amazing how well they have managed assets in the past few years and they've scouted well and drafted pretty well, in my opinion, and had a clear focus of like, we're going to put, you know, lanky, you know, perimeter defenders and creators around Trey

so that we have a really dynamic offense and then rim runners and guys that can catch passes, things like that. I mean, I think Jalen Johnson, I was kind of thinking about where they picked, if you're a playoff team and you can pick, you always have this dilemma of, like, do we need to go ahead and pick somebody that can play right now? A lot of teams are tempted to do that because they need

help that they can get maybe for cheaper than they would in free agency. But if you're a team like Atlanta, like you were saying, they have so much preexisting infrastructure there that it was worth it to go ahead and take a swing. I don't even think it's a gamble to take a swing on a guy who was like a consensus top five player in his class. I mean, if you think about Jalen Johnson, he's had some of the weirdness like Zaire did at Stanford. You know, he left the team. There was a lot of question marks about him. Like we talked about a lot, how he seemed like sort of a conditional player, the big guy that can't necessarily shoot the ball.

He looked a little better shooting the ball, I thought. 42% from three on three attempts per game. And I thought his mechanics looked great, right? And I think for him, this summer league, I've been highly impressed on both ends of the floor. He's had some mistakes, some careless turnovers. You tweeted out one of them earlier today. Just is very casual behind the back pass.

So like four or five minutes left in fourth quarter right after cross and half quarter. It was a two point game too. Yeah. It's like maybe, but you know, you see something like that. It's like more often than not, Trey's going to be bringing the ball up to court. And I've just been, I've been fascinated with how they've utilized him. Granted, they don't have a lot of bigs, you know, on their summer league roster. They've played him at the five a little bit.

They've used him in positions where he can initiate or, you know, from the perimeter. I think we're going to see some creativity with this Hawks. you know, team. Nate McMillan, look at what he's going to have here. Like, if you want to roll with Jalen Johnson to have like a six nine guy

who can handle the ball and create, you got that. If you want your rim runner, you got Clint Capella. If you want, you know, your rim runner who's a lob threat but can also shoot threes,

you get John Collins. You got O'Congru, super versatile on defense, who can do some rim running on offense. I mean, there's so many pieces here. Like, think about some of the lineup combinations. You want to go big?

you got Capella, Collins, Hunter, Bogdanovich, Trey. That's just one lineup you could throw it. Switchability with size. You could do O'Kongwu, Johnson, Reddish, Hunter, and Trey. Or maybe if Trey's resting, you put Bogdanovich out there. You want to go with a shooting lineup? You could do Collins, Johnson, Reddish, Heter, Trey. And like, this is just like, you know, a couple of them.

There's so many different lineup combinations that could lean towards defense first or shooting or switchability with size or full on small ball. Like, it's an endless amount of options here. And so many of those guys are young. They're young players. And I feel like the challenge with building around Trey Young, one of the reasons why I, like, everybody recognized his scoring talent when he entered the draft a couple years ago. One of my concerns was his size. And I think you've got to give Travis Schlank and this Hawks front office a lot of credit for putting together the appropriate pieces around a small guard in Trey.

And now you had Sharif Cooper, maybe if he pans out, you get another small, you know, dynamic playmaking guard behind Tray. Like you have the switchable wings. You have the guys who can handle the ball at the wing. You have Biggs, some of whom could depend on the perimeter. The amount of versatility this Hawks team has, dude, to perform in any type of playoff series. We'll see how these guys develop. But, like, I get pretty excited at the idea of what this team could be. if you're DeAndre hunters of the world

keep getting better and better. Where do you think they stack up with their young core compared to the rest of the league, Kyle? The question is going to be, you know, like the gold standard is always set by star power, basically like it or not.

And when I look at this cluster of young players, you start to think about contracts that are going to be coming up and things like that. It's like you can't keep this many because because the level of talent that they have is so high. I mean, they don't really have any, like, stinkers. Like, there's no guys on the roster that I'm just, like, unplayable. Like, we can't, you know, they have a lot of guys that you can put out there. And I mean, like, I was curious about, I'll answer your question

first. It still feels like they, the star power sort of balance is going to be a limitation for them, you know? Like, I'm curious, I'm curious if you'd agree or disagree with me, because if you think about the powers of the, of the east, you know, could, if, could they be full-strength Brooklyn, probably, I mean, I don't expect that to be the case. And then that's three legitimate all-star players. So, I mean, how do they get to that level or beyond? Do they maybe package some of these really promising players for a team that has a star who is just sitting there unhappy for a team that wants to reboot? I don't know which team that would be. That's typically the way it goes. But they have enough right now to be like a very good team.

And we've seen it there ahead of schedule. What they have works right now. that's an interesting thought there, you know, like packaging some of these young players. And they still have, you know, a lot of future picks as well. So with this Hawks team, that raises the question like, who would be that guy that would even become available? Because right now we're at a state with the trademark. And everybody's focused on Damien Lillard. Everybody's focused on Bradley Beale. Those guys, you know, it doesn't seem like anything is immediate with either of them. And also, is Dame or Beal the best fit next to Tray Young? No, neither of those guys are. You'd rather. find, you know, some type of rangey, switchable forward or a big who can be a star for you. But, you know, looking ahead, I'm not sure who that next guy is going to be that's going to be available unless we're talking about like two, three, four years from now, which is really hard to project forward. Like if cat a couple of years from now, like that's the ideal, right? If Carl Anthony Towns were to become available, you're nodding your head.

You're getting excited. That's an interesting. fired up. I don't fire it up. Those two together, they're an odd pairing in terms of personality and style, but I mean,

that's very interesting. Is that why I could work? Tray's the fiery one. The odd couple. Cat is, yes, I think it could work. I was going to say MPJ.

I wonder if like MPJ is interesting. Because he and Tray are tight. Like, they go way back. And we know that MPJ, like he has that type of ceiling, like in terms of scoring. I feel like his scoring ceiling is probably,

would you say it's higher than anybody on this roster? I'm just kind of looking at. I mean, Bogdanovich and Herder, but I mean, MPJ is beyond them in terms of like what he can get done. I don't know. That's an interesting one. I haven't looked at how they can make that work. The timeline for the ages and things, though, too,

like we were talking about, the ages with Jalen Johnson and John Collins are interesting to me because I was looking back at how old John Collins was when he came into the league. And if you look at them developmentally, is it outlandish? Is it outlandish to think that possibly Jalen Johnson in four years could be a player like John Collins? Like, did they just give themselves an option to potentially, I'm just saying that that's an interesting thing that they picked up at 20 in this draft.

And I think that Sharif Cooper is a guy that draft Twitter desperately wants to work. He's their boy. And I agree with them on a lot of different things in terms of him. He's such a fluid and skilled. I mean, like, he plays with a lot of pace for somebody that can't shoot the ball very fluidly off the dribble. Very ambidextrous playmaker. We saw him control, even in these games, I mean, he just looks so confident and comfortable all the time. And if the shooting ever comes around, the problem is that at that point, you would have two, you know, six-foot guards.

You probably, I mean, you can't really play them together because you just get immersed. You can't play them in any serious playoff scenario together together. because they just get mercilessly attacked, I would assume. Yeah. I would, I would assume as well. I mean, a Trey Cooper back court in a playoff series doesn't sound great. But I do think over the course of the regular season, you know, it'd be great to have Sharif Cooper.

If he's able to pan out, granted, like I said, he's only on a two-way, getting some opportunities within that offensive, if Trey were to miss time at any point, you know, in the next couple years, it's great to have somebody who can kind of do Trey-like things, you know, on the court with his playmaking, similar to what you said about, you know, with the roster of having Jalen Johnson behind John Collins. If there's a team, you know, that wanted to trade for John Collins at some point, you feel like you can slide Jalen Johnson right into that role. Great. You know, I think it's good to have that type of depth. Like they can put these pieces together in so many different ways. They have the veterans. We didn't even mention Gallo, Lou Will,

Jang, Solomon Hill, DeLan Wright. Like, this is a really strong. deep roster with young players, some good vets, can play so many different ways. I love what they got. And I think in many ways for this team, they're just missing that other star player. And when I think about size and length and versatility, I'm thinking a lot about the Toronto Raptors, who drafted Scottie Barnes with the fourth pick, which came as a surprise to a lot of people on draft night, expecting them to take Jalen Suggs, point guard out of Gonzaga. But they went with Barnes, 6-8 Ford out of Florida State I've been

I've loved watching Barnes and Summer League Kyle I've loved watching Scotty Barnes and you loved him prior to the draft as well whatever been your takeaways from how he's performed for the Raptors through the Summer League

I was I wanted to say one more thing about Atlanta before we move on it's sort of a cosmic gumbo have you watched have you watched I think you should leave yet that's for anybody out there their roster I was asked like four times this past week, are you watching White Lotus?

Oh, is that? Are you warned out by that? I have not, I want to watch it, but I have not watched White Lotus. Are you watching White Lotus, Kyle? I have. I finished it last night, right? Yes. It's good.

Should I binge watch it during the off season? It's really good. It's enjoyable. How about Ted Lassau? Are you watching Ted Lassau season two yet? I've not seen a moment of Ted Lassau. I don't have Apple Plus. I'll have to get it.

some point. I mean, I'm thinking about losing Netflix. You haven't watched season one? I haven't seen any of it. I'm thinking about ditching Netflix and getting Apple Plus maybe for a spell here. Well, Netflix has declined. Yeah, we're the one. This is like Eric Bloods. Yeah. The net, yeah, Netflix has declined. We're just wondering if they, if they're worth the, uh, the, the, the max money that I used to give them. Is Netflix, is Netflix going to die? I mean, there's so many other competing streaming services now, Disney Plus. I'm dying. I mean, Netflix. I mean, I've thought about canceling as well, but there's a couple shows on there. My mom likes watching. So we're keeping it for now.

But it's, I really think that what we just did was a legitimate, you know, audition. I think the watch is in trouble. Honestly, after that conversation that we just had, like, the watch should watch their back. Because I think that our, our TV combos are that good. Here's the thing I'll say about Netflix. And this is why I'm always going to keep it. You know what reality show I love that they have? The circle. The circle. It's a great. It's a tremendous reality TV show. Terrific.

Have you watched that, Kyle? No, I haven't. No, I haven't. If anybody's listening to the pod and has watched, Sasha, producing today shows, says, Love the Circle. Thank you, Sasha. If you're listening to the show and like the Circle,

or White Lotus or Ted Lassow, let us know. And also give us TV recommendations. Let's talk about the Toronto Raptors, Kyle. Sorry, sorry, yeah. Sorry, I really derailed us there. Scotty Barnes. Scott, me asking Kevin about,

I think you should leave through launch cab. Yeah, and the irony of me saying I like that show. And then anyway, uh, moving on. Scotty Barnes. Also, I love the way you say Scott, Squatty, Scotty Barnes. Does like my, my Brockton come out of me a little bit? Yeah. Anytime you say an O sound, it's, oh, oh, I, I enjoy it. It's great.

Um, so. I'll have to listen back. As someone with an accent. How about supposed to say it? Scotty. Scotty. Scotty. Scotty. Scottie. Scottie. Scottie. Scottie. All right. So yes. I mean, the thing. .

that have been great about Scotty Barnes continue to be great. I mean, I watched, you know, a couple of his games where he, he's just absolutely hounding the point guard. I wonder if Scotty Barnes in time could develop into one of the best ball pressure tools in the entire NBA. I mean, if you think about wingspan, if you think about he's quick, he has the lower, you know, he has the hips and legs, like the, that strength that you want to have from a guy who, guards the ball. And he just has great motor, man. And I was watching him, you know, a few years from now, it'll be, it'll be interesting at the end of this coming year. I wanted to talk about this with you. Who do you think is a candidate to have, like, if we took all the catch-all metrics in the NBA, like defensive Raptor, defensive block, box plus minus, points per possession allowed, like the versatility ratings from B-ball index, who is a threat to have better ratings than him. Other than, I mean, Mobley, probably.

I think Mobley, and I don't know, I just think that he stands to probably be the best defender in this class. In all likely. In this class only, Kyle? Or a whole league. In time, I really do think that he could become one of the best ball pressure tools in the NBA. What do you think? I mean, think about that Hornets game.

We saw him hounding Grant Riller on the perimeter. We saw him battling against Kai Jones from one to five. equally effective against all of these positions. It's like you said, I mean, he really has, you know, the perfect, you know, measurements, you know, six, seven, 225 pounds, long arms, and the perfect mind for it. I mean, he's not only just an intense defender. I mean, there's plenty of guys who are gritty and tough. They play hard, but they aren't smart on the court. Scotty Barnes has an understanding of positioning and situation to just disturb plays, to to disturb opponent's actions.

I saw this throughout the entire summer league. We saw it throughout his college year at Florida State. And we're going to see the NBA immediately. And for the, like for him, you know, I saw some comments on Twitter saying like the Dremont Green comparison doesn't go far enough. I think the Dremont Green comparison is very fair in the

defensive end of the floor when we're comparing him to one of the most versatile great defenders in the history of basketball. It's on offense with Scotty Barnes that he can do some things that go far beyond that Dremont comparison. Yes, six, seven can handle the ball, can facilitate a bit. We saw that throughout summer league still looks good,

just like it did at Florida State. But he had, he had that turnaround jumper from the right baseline. Oh yeah, another one. Just looks so fluid, dude. Like,

if he's able to become a more competent perimeter shooter at any point throughout his career with his handle, hmm, dude. like we're talking like one of the best players in the game if that were to happen and it may not and he could still be a great player but like some of the flashes that we saw in summer league just you know they it's like chris vernon had said on his on a tweet he tweeted i can't imagine there's four guys better than jalen suggs on the draft i think you can say the same thing about like scotty barnes i can't imagine there'll be three guys better than scotty barnes i mean he looks fantastic i think back to you the way that Dremont is relevant for me is you, I think back about like the historical kind of dive I did on Dremont back in the spring where I was looking at like playmaking driven like players on offense who are playmaking driven and then also had, but non-shooters that are playmaking driven, but that are also like great defenders and virtual defenders. And Dremont was one of those. Jason Kidd for a lot of his career was one of those Rajan Rondo. The point is that it's a rare type of player. So when you get into discussion, with people they have a problem with it. Or they have maybe a hard time seeing it.

Now, Dremont, I don't know. It's hard to know in terms of, but I honestly think he shoots a little bit of an easier ball than Dremon does. So it's not out of the, all he has to do is shoot, if he could just shoot in like the low to mid 30s on just wide open threes, he's going to be okay, you know, because he does so much other stuff. He's not going to be, he doesn't have any disillusion about who he is or what he does. But he's superversal, like he said.

And we were talking about comps. I wrote down just a couple of other ones, like Thad Young. I mean, we saw the way Aaron Gordon developed in terms of his, like, basic playmaking and pick and roll. And as a shooter, how he grew a little further along than Scotty as a shooter. Those were two that just kind of came to mind. Do you have any others off the top of your head? I mean, in the draft guide, I struggled to find some good ones. We had Dream on Green, Pascal Seacum, and then taller, taller,

and bulkier Michael Carter Williams, which is meant as an immense compliment, by the way. That's meant as a compliment. In your book, that's a compliment? That's a good one. I mean it as a compliment. MCW stuck around because of his defense. His offensive limitations are severe. But, you know, he's sticking around.

So, you know, you add, you know, four inches and, you know, 30 pounds. I don't know MCW's measurements at the top of my head, but that could be a really good player. And with Scottie Barnes, he's, you know, going to be far more than that. But I'm loving what I'm seeing. And I think with this Toronto Raptors roster, there's been a lot of talk about like, how good are they going to be after losing Kyle Lorry? They were very poor last season. I keep thinking about the fact that they played that

whole year in Tampa, the whole year. And I have a hard time putting much stock into that when every game was a road game during a COVID year. And I look at the names on paper here. And I, I kind of like what they have. You know, maybe they're only a playing contender, but Van Fleet, Gary Trent, O.G. and Obey, Pascal Seacum, Scotty Barnes, Chris Boucher, Malachi Flynn, precious at Chua. We just talked earlier about the Hawks and the depth of young talent that they have.

Delano Banton, who also another tall, you know, lanky shot creator, 6'9 came out in Nebraska as a second round pick. They have a lot of dudes who are tall. and can create, specifically Banton, Barnes, Seacom. This team also, like we talked about with the Hawks, deep yon core, a lot of versatility. I feel like that they're in a position to be very competitive, especially if they get more out of Van Vleet with more opportunity.

If Ananoly, continues getting better as he has every single year of his career, I don't know, dude. Maybe Siakam gets back on track like he did towards the end of the season. after falling off a little bit. The Raptors could be pretty good. I really believe that. They could be pretty good.

Yeah, they, I mean, they're well coached, and they have a lot of guys that are, I mean, Barnes specifically fits their brand, I think. It's interesting to me that Toronto looked at who was there and didn't take the mentality that the whole rest of the draft world did. Like, okay, let's say Lowry leaves, we'll just plug sugs right in there, plug sucks, and away we go. they clearly weren't thinking about it that way. I think you're right.

I mean, I think Gary Trent Jr. too is a good piece for them. I don't know. O.G., where do you think he could, what's the next frontier for O.G. as a player? Is it like scoring, playmaking,

you know, elevation? What do you think it is? Yeah, I mean, like that would be the natural next step. He's already a tremendous defender. He's become a very reliable spot-op shooter.

You got to give him credit. He became a 40% guy last year on six attempts per game. game. Shooting was the biggest question for him coming out of Indiana. So he's checked those boxes, defense shooting. He can tack closeouts a little bit. He's not like a liability as a passer. He can make the right play. So it's about continuing to develop some of the flashes we've seen from him as a shot creator. And whether or not he develops that, I'm not sure it matters. but if he were to tap into a higher level at a bubside and only 24 years old right now, I don't think anybody should be shocked.

Considering the level of improvement we've seen every single season of his career going back to Indiana. So with this team, I mean, I mentioned Van Bleet earlier. He's 27, Boucher's 28, Seacom's already 27. So they're a little bit on the older side. But you also can't roll out those guys getting better either, especially with the opportunity that's going to be there, especially for Van Bleet, without Kyle Lari. there now. So with this Raptors team, they're not a contender today, but I do think they have the

pieces to take another step forward. One team that actually needs to just get into the playoffs is the New Orleans Pelicans. They traded down from 10 to 17 with the Grizzlies before draft night. And they got Trey Murphy with that 17th pick. And, you know, maybe after Summer League on one of the ringer NBA shows or on the mismatch, we'll do like an all, you know, summer league team. Tray Murphy, you could argue, could be on that team because of his two-way play, averaging 16 points per game, shooting 44% from three on six attempts per game, rebounding seven times per game. He's averaging 2.8 assists as well.

Defensively, he's been great, rock-solid, reliable off ball, great on the ball against different positions, just like in college. He had great defense against Mobley last week over the weekend. I thought he gave Jonathan Cominga a really hard time, contained him on the perimeter. battling him inside on the post. Trey Murphy feels like exactly the type of tone setter that the pelicans needed on defense. And this is actually the type of offball, you know, shooter that they needed on offense. I think they very well just may have hit a home run with that pick.

They nailed it at 17. Yeah, I know on some of the pre-draft shows, like I remember I like talked myself into the idea of Kisper playing with him just because of the movement shooting at volume. I mean, you think about Trey giving them similar things, except on the other end, you're getting more defensive upside. You know, I think that he's, his life is going to be primarily like, be, okay, be, it's going to be a simple role because they have a few things in place and they just need quality pieces to sort of, you know, work in that work off of that. So he's going to be switchable defender similar to the idea of what I think Zaire could be and just catch and shoot threes, like just, and he can do that. We've seen that. And also another thing is like I think is a cutter. He has pretty great upside with Ingram and Zion.

So I think that he's a good piece for them because they just need quality pieces to surround those things to make life easier on their transcendent downhill presence in Zion Williamson. I wonder how they're going to sort out this rotation here because it seemed like Nikale Alexander Walker might become a guy that's a starter or, you know, gets consistent opportunity. Tray Murphy comes out right away Pretty dominant in within his role In Summer League Another team that can play Big with size and versatility It feels like that's kind of becoming a trend

With some of these younger teams that we're talking about here But with the Pelicans It's hard to say What level they'll reach this coming season But I guess what are your expectations for them Coming off a year in which they were 31 and 41 Horrific defensively new coach here in Willie Green

replacing Stan Van Gundy. What do you expect from this team in the loaded Western Conference? Should it be like succeed, you know, playoff lock, or is the expectation playing tournament for the Pelicans entering this coming year? I don't know that they made

a significant leap, like a huge leap. They added, let's see, going down through the edit, Sataranki, Devonte, Jonas, I mean, and Trey Murphy, those are all good ads. I mean, I think those are better ads on paper than what they had before. And we talked at Nozum about how, you know, Lonzo and Bloodsoe and Adams were just terrible fits next to your thing. If you have like a quality, legitimate, planetary piece to put at the center of your team like Zion, Zion is still special.

I mean, like nothing has changed. He's one of the more indefensible players in the league, like unguardable. He gets downhill. He makes grown men look like babies around the basket as a young guy. I think that you just need shooting around that. And I think they did. I mean, Satteransky can give you some playmaking and some shooting. Devonte Graham. I'm not so sure about that one. But Jonas, as we said, was an upgrade over Adams and the fact that he can shoot the ball some

and give you some deep. He can still, I think he's more applicable for them in the short term. And then Trey, like we said, I think those were good moves. It's just that I don't know. It's a step in the right direction, but I still think that there are a lot of steps to go. That's what I would say. They're still probably playing level to me. Do you have higher or lower expectations compared to me on that front?

I mean, it all comes down to how good this team can be defensively. As Williamson going to lock in consistently and be a tone setter as the best player on the team, is Brandon Ingram going to lock in and do it every night like he did his first year playing with LeBron James for the Lakers. I thought he was very good defensively with L.A. He's been very poor defensively with the Pelicans. And I also think how is this, how is the system going to be constructed here? To what level, to what extent is the offense going to be run through Zion versus, you know, more traditional, Devante Graham, bringing the ball up the floor, Satteransky, Kira Lewis, bringing the ball up the floor.

Or are we going to see a situation in which maybe the starting five is something like Valanchunis, Zion, Ingram, Murphy, Alexander Walker. I mean, if that's your lineup, if that's your starting five and your number one lineup you're using, your smallest guy is six foot six, Nikiel Alexander Walker. We're talking about a team that can switch one to four. And, you know, that could have great benefits over the course of the season if the effort and the focus and the intensity is there on the defensive end. So I do see significant upside with this team to be like a sixth seed. You need a lot to go right for you.

Like you're going to have to have some teams in the West underwhelming. because the West is freaking loaded, dude. It's like the expectation needs to be playing. That has to be the expectation. The floor. Yeah, the floor for them. It has to be playing. Like if you don't get the 10 seed,

like that's an utter embarrassment again. Like something is fundamentally wrong with the fit at that point. Like I still think Zion and Ingram can work together if the context around them improves, which I do think it did with Trey Murphy, with all the guys you listed off. But at this stage, a top six seed in the West,

when you have the jazz, sons, Nuggets, Mavericks, Lakers, Warriors. Yeah, the warriors are going to be better.

We expect them to be better. Yeah, Blazers I didn't mention there, but like they could still be really good over the course of the regular season. I mean, like Clippers maybe fall out without Kauai. Maybe nuggets slip a little bit

without Jamal Murray, but those teams could still be better on paper than the Pelicans can be. So, you know, getting in one of the top 10 seats, like if that doesn't happen, I mean, major change is going to have to happen. But ultimately, like this team, I think they can compete for a top six seed. And also, I think with their offseason, it's worth re-reviewing very quickly here because when the trade for DeVonte Graham first happened, Kyle, I hated it giving up a first round

pick for a sub 40% shooter who is, you know, very ineffective inside the arc and has not been what he was at Kansas on the defensive end of the floor in the NBA. I didn't like it. However, the fact that they ended up with Trey Murphy in the draft, the fact that they created a $17 million trade exception, which could be very valuable at some point over the course of the season or next off season to add another guy. I actually come away actually liking what the Pelicans did. Overall, You know, maybe giving up the pick is an ideal, but considering the savings, getting rid of Bletzo and Adams and what they brought in, the Pelicans come out looking better this coming season than they did finishing last year. And changing the coach, Stan Van Gundy to Willie Green needs to prove himself as a head coach. But I like what they did.

And this sets the pelicans up, hopefully, you know, for them with Zion's, you know, for agency in a couple of years, hopefully sets them up for a better year. Do you feel the same about that trade looking back? I mean, I don't think either of us are super high on Devante Graham, but the flexibility is nice, getting a trade exception. Yeah, I mean, he boosted his value during that phase with Charlotte, or at least he sort of entered a new part of the NBA conversation that he wasn't in before because he caught a lot of people by surprise. I didn't think he was an NBA player for a long time when he was at Kansas. So I'm surprised we're even talking about him at this point. But, I mean, I think that he's a limited role type player for them. Thanks for the Pelicans that you're doing this a year.

You're basically course correcting things you did a year ago and salaries that you gave out a year ago that really did make a ton of sense. These guys, in terms of like the nature of the personnel, it seems like the vision is better. You know, to me it seems pretty obvious what you need to do with Zion, what types of players you need to put around him.

I think that you're right. But no team really is a sort of straight down the middle unless like a straight down the middle traditional like, you know, the ball handler is like the strict facilitator unless you have like a heliocentric type guy like the Lucas, the Hardens, the, you know, the people like that. So I think they'll probably mix it up just because, you know, I don't know that you want to have Zion running like, you know, crazy amounts of pick and roll. He's going to kind to be your transition creator, come off dribble handoffs, things like that. And then you're going to go, you know, Satteransky can facilitate a little bit.

bit too. So I don't hate that at all. I think that it's a step in the right direction, but like we said, the West is just brutal. So it's going to be, you would have to get significantly better. We're talking about like superstar movement to move significantly up in the West. And they didn't do that, but they did get a little better to step in the right direction. Well, I mean, that's the thing. Like they didn't add that superstar name, but what if Zion gets even better from the guy that was averaging 30 points on historic efficiency and hand, handling the ball, running the offense in the latter half of the season. What if Ingram continues, you know, what he's done on offense while also becoming a good defender again?

Like, you do have these young players that have shown superstar potential on your roster. I mean, Zion is a star already with his abilities, but he can still get even better. Ingram is already an all-star. I'm not saying this team as like a sleeper contender or anything like that, but it wouldn't shock me. at all if you see a leap from those guys suddenly it's like zion mvb conversation you know we do that every year like it's like there'd be a week where people are saying should zion be mvp like that wouldn't shock me with this team at all if that were to happen um but it all starts with those guys that they have to step up what's um then there's today's show let's do some rapid fire questions just talk summer league

some of our thoughts around the league so i'll fire some at you kyle and let's go back and forth on these. Was Franz Wagner the right choice for the Orlando Magic with the eighth pick? Had a number of options there. You know, we saw Shen Goon look great for Houston. Davian Mitchell, who we'll talk about in the second, went right after him.

They got Jalen Suggs with the fifth pick. Was Wagner at number eight the right choice, though? It's hard to know, like we said, these are the early returns. I think the fact that they got Suggs makes it better. If they had gotten Suggs and another guy that was like maybe not a high ball skill, like high IQ player,

I would be more worried about it, but I like him. I like him next to Suggs. You think about there are other options, like the Moody Murphy-Zaire group of like the big wings. I think that he looked great getting to the rim, I thought.

I thought Wagner was really crafty, creative around the rim. The thing that I've always liked about him is he has that like balance, strength, um, and touch creativity. Like he's always kind of exhibited those things.

His motor is pretty, pretty good. But, you know, he was, he was a 34% three-point shooter in college. So I don't, it's not like it's, and this sample was pretty small, you know, you're adjusting to some things when you go and play on the NBA line immediately. I, I still think that it was a good pick for them. You know, we'll wait and see. There was nobody there that I was just like, you have to take this person instead. I like Wagner for them, because he gives you a lot of those things that you like, like defensive switchability and size, but the feel and the, for now I like it. I'm not alarmed. Are you? No, not at all. I mean, he shot 15% from three small sample

size. Let's, you know, give it time there. And I'm going to package this next thought with this next question. We were texting about Jonathan Cominga and he said, is Jonathan Caminga actually playing well? And, you know, so that's the next question here, but I want to package it with the magic. would they have been better off maybe going Cuminga at 5 and Book Knight at 8 or do they get this right going with Suggs at 5 and Wagner at 8

because like in an alternate universe maybe they do this a little bit differently and they flip the order of the positions that they took these players and also with Cominga Javier sets this play so far I think they did the right thing I think Suggs was the right pick I mean I've heard Suggs is

already like showing leadership. He is already getting guys together, already being somebody that like can change the culture there. Like Suggs was the right choice. He's a QB1. He's, he's that type of personality. And I think that that's what the magic needed. And I think that he fits their culture and he gives them the things that they need. And so I think that and Wagner together, you have to kind of look at it like that. I don't think booknight would have been, it would have answered their questions. I'm with you. Totally. And I think that Cumanga, just for Orlando specifically, I mean, honestly, Golden State weirdly might be in a better position to accommodate Cuminga's short-term needs. Like put him, I heard Schmitz talking about, you know,

putting him in that Jalen Brown role in terms of like on a good team, you know, go out there and just defend, hit open shots. He, there were some, he, he did look like same old Jonathan Cominga to me. I think he can kind of get wowed by his like outrageous like power and speed. And then you see some like here and there, like open shots that he hits and you're just like, oh my God, you know, All-Star, but his challenges are still like are still there. If you start looking at the efficiencies, like he was only 52% at the rim. He was 21.4% on all jumpers. He was still pretty erratic, but you know, you start seeing the Twitter clips go around and people were like, they were mean to Jonathan Camiga. It's like, no, he just was not clearly in that

top four. Like those top four guys, Cade, Mowgli, Suggs, Jalen Green. the floor and the certainty for them was just on another level from Cuminga, I think, and the volatility, like, Cuminga could swing high. The thing about volatility is it could swing high, but it can swing low. And I just think I was watching him.

I haven't really moved at all. He's still very volatile. I'm absolutely fascinated to see what happens with him in Golden State. Draymond's going to be a good mentor for him. Totally. I think they're going to hold him accountable. And I think it's also interesting to see how they used him in Summer League occasionally saw him,

him as a screener, as a screener, you know, in the half court. So I don't play a little bit of five. I'm not sure we'll see a whole bunch of that in the NBA when he has Draymond and Wiesman and Looney. But I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued by how they use comming. And like you said, Kyle, I haven't, my opinion hasn't changed on him. High upside, but it could swing low as well.

With Davian Mitchell, that NBA teams overthinking going ninth, a little bit on the older side, but he looks pretty, pretty great in summer league. Pretty great. I mean, he's, he's ready. I mean, he's ready to go. He was, he was set up to be, I was just wondering, is he sort of like a Kimba Bledsoe mishmash? Do you think? Ah, I'm into that.

I'm into that. I mean, that's a good player. Yeah, yeah. That's a great, that could be a great player. My thing with Davian was never, was never like, do you like him or do you dislike him? I just had nervousness about taking him like in the top 10, even though I know I mocked him there because I expected somebody to do it. The Kings ended up doing. doing it. I think the question for them just is more existing pieces. I mean, he he fits better

to me on paper with Halliburton than he does with Fox. I could see, you know, there's been a lot of conversations about what's going to happen on that front. I mean, he shot 40% from three by what I have here. It's sort of a philosophy of drafting, man. I think sometimes when you have like a pick in that like six through 10 range of the draft, you think to yourself, we got a top 10 pick. We can't, you know, we've got to maximize this opportunity. And sometimes the talent's just not there from year to year. It tends to be like five players, maybe, you know, that are really good and high upside. They took him there. They need culture. Like the Kings need culture. They need talent too. I think Halliburton and Mitchell together and Fox two,

but I just think their last two editions are good. They just are odd fits. He's clearly a leader. you know, I think he's going to be a plug and play player that's going to go for a long time. Earlier today, there was a story by Sam over at the Athletic, and he had a little note in there about Davion Mitchell, where he cited sources saying for the Kings, they loved his defense against Cade Cunningham when the Baylor, Oklahoma State game, and that's what convinced the team that Mitchell could guard bigger players. So when we're talking about like that backcourt with Fox and Halliburton and Mitchell,

even though Mitchell's only six foot, you know, according to saying, there's a belief within that King's front office that he can defend some bigger players. And I mean, we'll see how that pans out over the course, you know,

of his career. But he certainly has the ability to handle himself. Lockdown bigger guys, you know, a six seven, six eight, you know, wing.

That's a big question. But we have seen players, you know, whether it's, you know, the photo of Rondo years ago, you know, defending LeBron James

or, whether it's, you know, Marcus Smart, whether it's, you know, Patrick Beverly. Some of these smaller guards can affect their true holiday for that matter. They can effectively defend some bigger players, at least at a competent level. So for the Kings, I look forward to seeing how this works itself out

because with the three guards, it could be super dynamic on offense. And Mitchell, I do have belief in him on defense, but I wonder if at some point with so many guys that can handle the ball, if it's like one of these guys feels like the the the odd one and then there leads to a move well we'll see how that works out over time next question what are your early impressions of josh primo surprised that he went on when 11th on draft night um kind of drafted him one year ahead uh but spurs are taking a gamble here on him what do you like about primo so far 12th by the way not 11th

yeah i mean he's sort of um he's they took him early like you said so I think that there are some questions for him. He was on ball more than he was at Alabama by my eye. I didn't look at the exact number. Maybe that's absolutely wrong, but it seemed like he was. I think you're right, yeah. He was only 18.2% at the rim and then 27.6 from three. But like I was saying, a lot of those were more self-created than he had done before.

He's in that, like, Anthony Simon's mold to me of just like you're taking a risk on a guy that could have some upside. The thing about, like, guards like that is that they can also just end up. being like later rotation offense only kind of players. He was just erratic, but it's like one of those things like we said. It's like he's pretty young. I don't know if he's going to contribute with them in near future. So it's hard to read into it a whole lot. I do like the spurs for him in terms of their player development.

I think he's an interesting fit with them. The upside is good. You know, the reaching for him at that spot, that's a whole other conversation. What do you think his future looks like? Are you a Josh Primo believer? I mean, if you pull up the highlights, it's like, hell yeah. You know, I mean, hell yes.

You're a believer. I mean, some of the shots he took off the bounce. I mean, it looks tremendous. It's six four fluid. Can shoot it. But then, you know, you watch all the plays. And it's the same thing that you saw in Alabama last year where he's super raw. he's like one of the two years away

from being two years away type of guys potentially maybe not that far that's an exaggeration but with Primoe it's going to take him some time had he gone back to Alabama for his sophomore season maybe we're talking about him as a top 10 pick an extra year's draft maybe we're still talking about him as a late first round draft pick

the spurs are gambling with the 12th pick that he went there I think they should have taken Shengoon let me ask you a question on on Josh Primo? Who's a better player in five years? Josh Christopher or Josh Primo? Ooh. I mean, I'd lean towards Primo here.

Okay. I do like both, though, in their own respective ways. But I had Primo ranked ahead at Christopher in the draft, so I'm going to stick with that. But you said it's close. It's close. You said that you thought they should have taken Shingun and said? Yeah, I think they should have taken Shengun.

I love the way I saw from Shengun and Summerlee. how much of this is confirmation bias. I like to say you were, you were living it up. I was, yeah. Kevin's drinking champagne. You see the Instagram story I put up? Yes, I saw. Him do it.

Kevin was like toasting the flight attendant with champagne on his way to Summer League. He was like, shingoon. He's a shin gooney. Yeah. Also, Cam Thomas, tremendous in some of the league. Let's talk about his teammate, though. How Dayron's Sharp look, like post weight loss.

Did you say Dayron? Dayron shop. I don't know what I said. I feel like I've lost my voice a little bit this past week. Some funky things are happening here, Kyle. Chearing for cheering for your bandmates. He lost some weight after the college. He's in North Carolina.

How's your assessment of his defense in Summer League? He looked like Darren Sharp to me. I know that's like the theme of what we keep talking about. He didn't look noticeably spring. year. I agree. He was kind of having trouble catching passes in traffic, things like that. I'm a little concerned, but not. I mean, Brooklyn is kind of in a situation where they can, you know, take a flyer on somebody. I wouldn't call Day Run Chopper Flyer, but their risk tolerance is probably pretty good. Like Cam Thomas obviously is a fantastic situation for them because he is going

to be enabled to learn from those guys. And I think they're going to be in the same way that, you know, Dremont's going to be a good mentor for Kaminga. I think that those stars will be good for Cam Thomas. Darren Trump looked the same to me. I wasn't really blown away by him. Of course, there's the other factor of this too is that like Biggs can have trouble in Summer League,

just the way that the game has played. So it can be a little bit of a misleading sample and you kind of have to read into different things and take it with a grain of salt. I mean, he went from 278 pounds of 253. I mean, I thought he had some, Great moments on defense. Some where it's pretty clear.

He still needs to improve his perimeter lateral quickness. Overall, I'm encouraged. I liked him in the draft. Didn't love him in the draft. But at the 29th pick, it's a good value selection for the Nets. And he's exactly what they need if he's able to become a more versatile defender on the perimeter.

And with his rebounding interior presence, it's a good pick for them. Are we sticking with Kade 1, Mobley 2, green 3, or have you seen anything in Summer League to change how you perceive those guys, also factoring where they went in the situations that they're in? Would you stick with that top three? Well, what's interesting about this is that I'm pretty sure, don't we know for a fact that Houston tried to get Cades?

So that should tell us something there. They tried to get him before the drafts. I mean, yes, we do know that. Yeah. So anyway. And less like I said, unless like it's a whole, It was a small smoke screen. Sometimes you never know.

I've done that in fantasy leagues before. Why not do it? Why not do it in the actual NBA? Kevin, Kevin the chess master. I've done that in fantasy football drafts in the past. I've talked about a player that I like for for weeks. Oh,

I got the fourth pick. Are you a sociopath? I've never, I've never been into fantasies. I don't know. I played a win. Ruthless, vicious. I mean, it would have to be, I guess it comes down to what you want to read into summer league, like we said.

It's really, for me, it would have to be like half a season for me, well, even longer. I mean, we're always so eager to like bring back the results and judge. These things take time, man. Oh, I mean, the reason why I ask says like, you know, Jalen Green, we talked about him right before the draft. Like, he shot the hell out of the ball, dude. Yeah, he did. He looks so great. 52% of three.

He's not going to shoot 52%. But he was a great. great free throw shooter in high school and G League. I feel like maybe his range has actually been extended. He looks so comfortable off the catching off the dribble. Yeah, he did. He looked good. And I had a thought, man.

I was like, I can't believe I'm saying. I'm saying I'm saying this, but I'm actually kind of excited to watch John Wall and Jalen Green together. Like, I feel like that's going to be fun. Yeah. What it amounts to, I'm not sure. I mean, he hit 50% on all of his jump shots at Summer League. I was impressed that, you know, he was,

if you looked at the pick and roll numbers from summer league it was really i'm pointing with like a wall charger i don't know why i'm doing this um i need a prop if you look at the pick and roll numbers it's a lot of experience guys it's like maxy quickly paten or like guys who are older who are on NBA teams and it's just guys that kind of know the NBA system things like that and green was up there like generating fouls hitting shots he looked really comfortable he uh he he just looked fluid and, like I said, extremely at ease within, you know, that setting and played really well. You're right. I thought that Cade, I sent you a clip of like sort of the chaotic playmaking, you know, you know, drive dish kick, things like that with Killian and Cade. I still think, and

Cidique Bay, I still think that's on track to be really fun. I like that. I thought Cade was shooting the ball faster. I went back and watched. Have you paid any attention to this at all or taking a closer look at this? You think his release is quicker? I think so. I think he worked on like he was somewhere in between a one and two motion shot. I think he is trying to shoot it in one motion. It looks fast. He shot the ball. I mean, he was streaky. Has, as you, my order is the same. I mean, have you moved at all like in terms of, or you have the inklings of movement? I mean, my gut tells me it should be green too over Mobley. That's, my gut says. And like, that's nothing against Mobley. I mean, Mobley could be absolutely

unbelievable on the defensive end of the floor, but I still have my questions about him on offense. The playmaking is there. But we're talking about Cade and Green could be guys that run the offense, that they are the center of your offense. And Evan Mobley, I'm not sure he's ever going to be that. And you're always going to favor the guys that are, that do it all on offense. And with Cunningham, he showed he can be a great defensive player. Him and Cillion Hayes had some real lockdown moments

throughout Summer League. Like if Killian Hayes ever works out on offense, the defense is already there for him to be a terror on that into the floor, especially if paired with Cunningham and Bay, some of their other young players that they have, Isaiah Stewart. And then with Jalen Green, dude,

I don't know, my gut tells me he has it, man. and I kind of wish I had him ranked ahead of Mowbly before the draft. If you're redoing things now, I'm keeping it for now, for now, but there's a couple of months here to think about things before the beginning of the regular season. And Jalen Green, dude, he looks freaking special, man. So that's the top of the draft. Let's talk about the second round here. Who were some second round picks that have impressed you the most, Kyle?

I've let Miles McBride look pretty good. Oh, that was the first one on my list, too. Yeah, I wondered. I wondered. So you said, wait, so you said you saw him, this is one of my favorite things about Summer League as the random sightings because you just drop a whole industry, which, you know, people do that in Vegas, but you just drop the whole NBA. And it's like the spectrum of like, you know, players coming into the league all the way up to like legends and stuff. You'll just, that's my favorite part about it. You'll see, you know, Kareem Abdul-Dabbar putting around the concourse, things like that. You saw Miles McBride out at dinner, you said? Yeah. So I was at Momo Fuku with some friends, Dave Chang's restaurant, tremendous place in Vegas. And so we see like Corey Kisperk there, Max Struz, Zach Collins came in with like his little knee scooter. The new Arizona head coach, what's his name off the top of my head? Tommy Lloyd. Tommy Lloyd. Former Gonzaga assistant. A couple others were there as well.

Isaiah Liver's from Michigan. And then in comes Miles McBride. Decked out in his full jersey and shorts, all of his mixed gear. I got tagged in a tweet this morning. I guess he posted a TikTok wearing his next jersey from his hotel. So apparently he just always wears his next jersey. Did he shower? Well, he definitely.

in shower after the game to come to Movofuku. I mean, he still had, he still had his compression on underneath. But yeah, that was the night he had a tremendous game and he deserved to walk in with his jersey. But yeah, Miles McBride, he's looking like a steel. He's looking like he might play, play. I mean, Grimes and McBride together, I mean, oh, Quentin Grimes looks really good too. You just talk about brand fits.

I mean, they fit the NICs, the brand that the Knicks have kind of set up here, which, you know, the physical, which I guess historically has kind of been New York's thing. Yeah, he shot 48.1% from 3.4 assists, 14.4 points per game. Grimes shot the ball pretty decently well. I thought, too, he's going to give them like a pick and roll operator, maybe not like a star level. But those two guys look good. I thought Miles looked good passing the ball, too. He looked pretty comfortable, you know, skip pass, things like that.

He's an interesting player and a really good defender, as we know. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Miles McRide. First one on my list there. I'm with you on him. We mentioned him in passing earlier. Jason Preston has had some good moments as well. Luca Garza, very clear.

He still needs to improve on defense. He may always be eliminated on that end of the floor. But I love the energy. I love the intensity. He can definitely stroke it, you know, from three. He can do a little bit inside for you. I hope he works out. I hope he works out in the NBA.

I know. It's a fun. I mean, he looked like me when I like checked into my first like varsity game, like where I like hit a three. He was like, he like, he got so happy. I don't read his lips. I will also say too that he looks like he has to individually lobby with each molecule in his body when he's running. He looks like he has to go down and be like, all right, we got to run now. Like it just, it looks so labored.

But he's a skilled player. I mean, he's like, you know, he's probably. roster level at best right now if he works out in the NBA. But as we've said, you know, he has some skills. He led the, I think he led the country

in scoring this past year, didn't he? I mean, really prolific score. But he was, he was entertaining to watch. That's, that's for sure.

All right. Last question here, Kyle. Who were some of the second year standouts we saw in Summer League? There are always those guys that clearly like kind of don't need to be there, you know?

And I was thinking, too, about this, maybe not necessarily. they don't need to be there, but they were just out of place because they were already NBA players. Like, we know Emmanuel quickly is like he's played in the playoffs. Maxie, same deal. Yeah, it's, there's a, there's a sort of like you don't want to play on JV if you're on varsity, kind of a stigma.

Like, you don't want to be caught playing in Summer League if you're an NBA player or in the G League, but it has its value. Were there any guys there that, I mean, those were two that jumped out to me. Were there any guys that to you clearly look like they graduated? I mean, I love the fact. that Desmond Bain played. Oh, yeah. He put the ball on his hands because that's where he did more in college.

He wasn't just like a, you know, spot out player. And we saw some of the, you know, the moments of what he can do with the ball in his hands. Granted, it's just Summer League. It's just Summer League. But he has the skill. And he showed he has the skill against good competition against a bunch of guys that are fighting for jobs. And I was impressed with what we saw from him. Emmanuel quickly had some good moments, inefficient, you know, scoring the ball.

Um, but I thought maxi was the one that stuck out the most. Granted he didn't shoot the hell out of it, shot only 29% from three on seven attempts per game. I thought he looked dominant. He got where he wanted with the ball. He showed what he can be if the three pointer can fall with any consistency. Um, I mean, he's an important player for, for the Sixers in the sense that he's either going to be a guy to plays for them or he's going to be an important piece in a trade.

and I think for Philadelphia, there's a little part of me that wants to hang on a maxi. Oh. I mean, I like what I see from Maxi. I love the intensity. I like what you said, though.

I mean, I didn't think about that in terms of like, you know, stonks going up and down here. I think that, like, him playing well could be a like, you know, Daryl Moyer rub his hands together and be like,

oh, yes. Great timing. Yeah, I mean, what did you think about, I wanted to ask you about him really quickly. He was a guy that kind of got some traction online. I know people were talking about him. Yeah, I thought Obi, I mean, he looked lost in the beginning of his rookie year.

By the end of the year, he looked okay in his limited role. Similar here, I thought he took another step up. He didn't stink. He didn't necessarily dominate by any means, but I thought he performed very well. Average, what, 23, 24 points per game. Pretty good efficiency, shot the ball well. I think for this Knicks team, don't get, like if you watched

Obie Toppin early last season, don't get locked into what you saw then. Obie Topin is going to be a better player than the guy who was lost early last year. And I think we saw that towards the end of the season. We saw that in Summer League. I mean, overall, I was impressed. I liked, I just like to watch them to Knicks

with Quentin Grimes, with Quickly, with Topin, everybody we've talked about with that group. there's a lot of good young players, dude. We haven't even talked about a lot of teams here. But there's a lot of good young players in the NBA right now. It's going to be a lot of turnover. Like some of these older players are going to get pushed out quickly.

Well, the tide just keeps rising, man. That's what I think about all the time. I mean, basketball players, there are more good basketball players right now than any time in human history. and I think that it's just going to, the tide just keeps rising of skill in the NBA because these players have the benefit of learning from good examples and it's just going to kind of exponentially, exponentially go out. So yeah, I think what your point about older players, it's like the turnover has to stop

at some point because the younger players are just getting better and better and better. That's where it's going to go. Like Paul Reed had a crazy night, a 20 and 20. Just down the line there. I know Neismiss had some good stuff going on there. Peyton Pritchard, playing in the championship game for the 4 and 0. Southics. He had 92 in like his pro am. He left the team. Now he's coming back for the title game against the Kings on Tuesday

night. Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna for sure tune into that one. But you're right. You're out. That's so much to get to. Unfortunately, we can't get to every single one of it. We'd like to. But I thought summer league. I wish I could have gone. I was jealous. Ended up staying home. But anyway, I'm glad you got to go. Hopefully next year, I mean, we'll see with Corona. We'll cross our fingers. Hopefully next year, Vegas is just normal Vegas. But who knows?

We'll see how things work out over the next four or five years. But four or five years. Jeez. I'm thinking about next year. I don't know. Whatever. We'll see. I hope to see you at summer.

Like hopefully we see each other soon. When do we last see each other in person, Kyle? New York, right? In New York in 2019? It's been a long time. Well, you know, a lot has happened. the world has shifted. Where would we go for dinner that night?

We went to our famous story. Thursday kitchen, right? Thursday kitchen in New York, the Korean restaurant. Yep. Yeah, we would we see in there from, uh, this is one of, this is one of our greatest hits, though, Kev. I mean, we saw the girl and the guy from stranger things and you didn't know who it was. And people, people probably heard that one, but Thursday kitchen.

Still, still shameful on your part. But hopefully we'll get to have another big meal in the future. I look forward to it, Kyle. Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Ringer NBA. show, please do us a favor and let a friend know if you enjoyed the program. We get a lot coming over the NBA off season and I'll be on the mismatch on Tuesdays and Friday still every week this off season. Kyle, thank you, dude. This is fun. Indeed it was, Kev. Good to see you. Have a good week, everybody.