The Ringer NBA Show - First Impressions of the NBA’s In-Season Tournament Games and Underwhelming Teams That Deserve the Benefit of the Doubt | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

Logan, Raja, and Howard discuss the first batch of NBA in-season tournament games, their overall thoughts on the new addition to the regular season, and whether the level of competitiveness feels heightened (2:00). Later, the guys talk through a handful of teams that have had slow starts to the year and debate whether or not they deserve the benefit of the doubt (39:00). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bill there. Mother fucking Monday. So you know who's in the building, Howard. Mother fucking Beck. How are you guys doing? Howard, how was your weekend, bud? What up, fellas? Weekend was good.

I can't remember a single thing I did other than work. But it was a good weekend anyway. I wrote about James Harden. Go check it out on the ringer.com. Fabulous website. The NBA season is upon us. No days off. Roger, how was your weekend?

My weekend was good. Thanks for asking. What did I do this weekend? Yeah, just, yeah, it was a good weekend, man. That's a little CJ Stroud. We're boring, man. Look at that. I did.

I did. What did I do? Oh, no, Saturday was all day college football. Some good games on Saturday, in theory, at least. So I was locked in. And then what I do yesterday, man, my son had a paintball party for his birthday. Ty's birthdays this week. So we have birthday party.

Oh, my favorite. Shout out of Ty Boogie. Happy birthday, but. I appreciate it. Yeah, I watched a. I watched, you know, the Raiders winning a football game. It was great. It was awesome.

Shout out to them. Tell all my homies that, you know, this is what it is to be a loser. You just take anyone whenever you can get it with no expectations. It's great. It's awesome. It's great. Is Antonio Pierce your guy or we're just living in this world where he got a win off of of pure adrenaline or is there any chance?

I'm not following it. So I'm asking for real. I have no hope for the Raiders at any turn. We'll get to the shits in a second, but you know, fuck that. The thing that I feel about the Raiders is I have gone through the heartache and pain of the early 2000s. And so this is just, this is just fine. Like, I've already gone through, like, Jamarcus Russell and Andrew Walter and Aaron Brooks as my quarterback and just the turnover. I live through Al Davis.

So this is light work. At least there's a new stadium, you know? It's fine. Right? Like, that's cool. This is where we're at. Looks nice. You know, that's where we're at. Can I just take this opportunity to question Logan, the East Bay native,

on the fact that Raider fans for my entire lifetime, because I'm old enough to remember when they were in Oakland and I was grown up in San Jose. And then they weren't in Oakland because they were in L.A. Then they jacked up a bunch of other cities that they like extracted money from while never coming to their towns and then eventually found their way back to Oakland and they're now fled for Vegas. And you Raider fans, Logan, you never give up on this. It doesn't matter what they do to you. It doesn't matter how they have toy.

And you're not old enough to remember the first 17 times they screwed the Bay Area. But my gosh, has any pro franchise on this continent messed with its fan base and abandoned them as many times and been forgiven every time? Oh, they're in Vegas fine. Cool. Oh, they're playing in like Siberia. Raider fans are still going to be like, yeah. They're still going to, like, paint themselves like Darth Vader and put on black and silver makeup.

They don't care. It's incredible. I mean, I'm just, I'm glad you asked that, Howard. I'm really glad you asked that because I've been getting that question a lot over the weekend, specifically during the Giants game, which the Raiders won, by the way. Honestly, my whole life, they've just been for the streets, you know. I didn't share, I shared them whenever, you know, with the L.A. fans, with the Vegas fans. I'm not really tripping. It's honestly, they embody,

it's not even about what they have done. It is about the connection that I have growing up and going to Raider Games and hearing the propaganda off the bar, going with my dad. It has nothing to do with this team. It has, it's the sports, bro. Let me ask you a question, seriously, both of you.

Because I agree with that. I mean, look, like real quick, who do you know who has quit a damn team? Like, do you know anyone was like seriously? Like, seriously. A team. They grew up a team. Like, this is my team.

I only got one team like that. It's a Miami Hurricanes. And as much shit as I talked about them when they were really, really bad. And quite frankly, it ain't been looking good as of late. But I can never quit them. I have friends who did quit the Raiders when they like, I'm a Bay Area native. Right. And I grew up and they left while I was still, I don't know, teen years or whatever.

There were people who definitely give up on the Raiders at that time. And here in New York, where I've been for the last 20 years, there were definitely, by the way, some people who at the, when the Knicks were at their low point, one of their many low points, and especially after Linsanity, a lot of people were really pissed off at the Knicks for not resigning Jeremy Lynn at that time. He had given them the most joy they'd had in years. And that was right when the Nets moved to Brooklyn. I did a whole story for the New York Times back then about Nix fans who had decided to become Nets fans because now that they were a city team, so like it does happen.

But like, Raja, the distinction I would make is this. Like, I had friends growing up, even in the Bay Area. There were, you know, there were cowboy fans. There were Steelers fans, right? The Steelers were huge in the 70s, Terry Bradshaw, all that stuff. Yuck. My college roommate, he had grown up in, like, the Central Valley of California. So he was just far enough from Bay Area and L.A.

That he had no allegiances. But, like, he got TBS. So he became like a Atlanta Braves fan, I think. And then he somehow became a Seahawks fan. He was just adopting teams from various places. right? Shout out to my boy, John Squire. So he just had fan, he was a fan of teams that were not in his home base. The where, where I draw the line on this or where I think it's strange is, like I'm a Bay Area guy. I grew up on all the same teams you did, Logan, for the most part,

during my years as a fan, which is long behind me, if, if the, let's say the Niners, it was painful when Joe Montana left the Niners. It was painful when a line's got. If the Niners themselves had left, you're shaking your head because you're a Raider fan, stop it. If the Niners had left while I was like still incredibly emotionally invested as a young kid growing up in the Bay Area and that was my team. That's the team that they're the reason I'm a sports writer by the way. If they had left and not just Montana going to Kansas City, the whole Niners had relocated to Kansas City, I would have been crushed and that would have been the end of it for me. So the fact that the Raiders could toy with your emotions or with Bay Area fans' emotions as many

times they have and screwed them on the way back in, by the way, too. Like, they wrecked Oakland's entire budget. They screwed up the Oakland Coliseum by throwing up that monstrosity in the outfield. That used to be like a beautiful view. Anyway, all right. The funny thing is, and you're right, you're right on all those things. And like, even to the point of like funding, it directly impacted me. And we're going to get to NBA in a second.

I promise you guys. But, you know, we're in a bag right now. Can we put in the show notes like fast forward to 10 minutes if you want to get past loaded? No, because they need to hear this shit. They need to hear this. It's a very, though, we don't get to hear the great Howard Beck talk NFL often. So we're going to lock in on this. My NFL memory is also stuck back then, by the way.

I have nothing to offer for the last 20 years. So, okay, I get all those things you're saying. And I am a direct product of the fact that Al Davis, and also it's not even just Al Davis, we had city leaders that were terrible that agreed to all of this. But the result was I didn't go to Oakland schools as a. direct result of the Oakland Raiders because they took away all the funding. And my parents were like, no, we can't send you to Oakland schools because it's so bad. So I, and so that is the thing. So they shipped your ass to Piedmont.

Nah, I couldn't afford Piedmont. But, um, sorry, Roger. I could not afford Piedmont. But even on, even with, with, with that, it's just you've been to a Raiders game. Howard. That shit matters when you're in the trenches. You know, you know the cult of it is, and I am indoctrinated in the cult, and I will never leave. It is what it is. And I tried to leave when they went to Vegas. And you know what? I saw a Raider game. And in Vegas, I think they played the Chargers. And I didn't, I didn't watch. I was watching it on television. And I was like, all the emotions started coming back. And I said, you know what? Fuck that. I'm here. I'm ready. And you know what Oakland people like to do on their weekends? They like to fly to Vegas. It's the most Oakland shit of all time. So like,

It's fine. It's not even, it's a deal natural. All I know is like fucking Sonics fans, there ain't no Sonics fans rooting for the Thunder, all right? Like, there are no like old Baltimore Colts fans still rooting for the Indianapolis Colts even before they got. Well, guess what? They're not Raiders. They're not fucking Raiders. All right. They're not Raiders. The autumn wind is a pirate, damn it. All right. Anyways, let's speak in of Vegas. Hashtag Raider culture. You know what I mean? It doesn't make sense, Howard. That's what makes it great. That's what makes it awesome.

I'm glad I asked you had a good fun response. All right. Explanation. Let's let's get to, let's 10 minutes into the pod. Let's get into some basketball. So on Friday, one of the things that I did was I watched some of the preliminary games of the in-season tournament. And I got to say, I had a ball watching some of the in-season tournament games. I'm kind of locked into this to this gimmick, all right?

I recognize it as a gimmick, but I did like watching competitive basketball a couple of weeks into it. There was a great game against OKC and Golden State. We got to see a couple of game winners, a couple of games down the stretch. That was really good. Howard did this first weekend change your perspective on the in-season tournament whatsoever? Just the excitement. Were you like, was how? Howard out on the NCAA?

Howard is out. I want one pass per show where I can say pass and I want to hear Raja first and then I'll come in. Because like I, I'm going to hold back for a minute. I want to hear what Rajas. So was Howard out? Howard was out on the in season tournament that I missed this? Skeptical. Just say skeptical.

Howard, you know like on other podcasts like Drink Champs, for instance. If you say pass, you got to take a shot. So we're keeping this very, just if you pass that don't want to answer the question, you have to do that. I got. I got copy of my old full 48 buck here. Okay. What were you thinking, Roger? I mean, look, I really didn't have much of an opinion on it other than if you're,

I watched two on Friday night. And I'm sitting here telling you it's not every Friday night in the beginning of November that I'm going to be locked in to try to see the courts and just have general interest in what's going on on an NBA night. So by the mere fact that, that I was there and I was tuned in, I guess you've achieved your goal, right? Like, which is to,

to have some interest and, and have people locked in in a way that they ordinarily aren't. And so objective achieved, I guess, whether or not people are going to really sink their nails into this NBA cup, and it's going to become a thing. And people are going to be scarving it out like they are. And,

and, like, you know, EuroLeague and Fibah and Premier League. Like, I don't fucking know. But, I mean,

I was, I was here for the, for the novelty of, it for a minute. I was there. I was looking at the courts and shit. I mean, I don't, I I mean, not a big deal to me, but I don't, I mean, I don't think it takes the NBA by storm in any way, shape, or form. Yeah. Listen, I'm, uh, I've, I've settled on the term skeptical agnostic for this. I'm skeptical of it. I'm agnostic. I am not anti. I'm not four. I'm not sure I believe in it. Okay. There's the agnosticism. You're not believing in the gospel of,

of the in season tournament yet, just yet? I'm not believing in the gospel of L.L. Cool J and Michael Imperiali. And the Roots. So, by the way, the L.L. Cool J. and Roots collaboration, actually, I'm digging. Like, I like that part of it. If, like, they didn't get me with anything else, they kind of got me with that. I enjoyed that, although a little overkill between that and Michael Imperiali commercials, like, fuck, stop. Let's slow down.

I mean, like, enough. It's like every single commercial. We're already watching it. You cannot, you don't have to play the commercials. Anyway, I'm skeptical because, as I think you know, Logan and Rajah, this is my perspective on it, has been, there's no harm done. These are all regular season games they were going to play anyway. You just gave them, you dressed them up a little, you gave them some pretty weird-ass courts. In some cases, I kind of liked it. And some, it was like just searing your eyeballs. But there's no harm done.

It's not, I'm not against the tournament in the sense that I don't think it's hurting anything. I just don't know that there's that much allure. Like, Roger, you just said, like the novelty of it. Yeah, we got the novelty of it on night one. How many more times are we going to see those courts and go like, all right, enough already? Can we just get to the semifinals and the finals like this whole group stage stuff, whatever? It's hard to get your head around because it's all spread out. Some regular season games this month that are just normal games, some that are designated tournament games.

And on those nights, we'll have special courts and we'll have L.O. Cool, J. Michael, Aparioli every five seconds. But I don't really see where it's advancing anything. So on that note, Rajah, you were saying some really good games on Friday. Logan, you mentioned it too.

Quick aside. I've not read through the entire ringer and Spotify employee manual. Are we allowed to criticize our fellow podcasters on other shows,

especially if one of them might include one of my bosses? Let's do it. Do your thing, do your thing, I just figure I should check on these things as we go before I get myself in trouble.

I still knew. I'm in my probation period. So our friends on group chat, great podcast, love those guys. Mahoney, Varyer, and Chris Ryan was sitting in for Waus. They were very, very excited about this. To the point where I felt like they had filled up the NBA Cup, the actual NBA Cup that's going to be awarded. They'd filled it up with extra strength, Kool-Aid, and just dove in. They were just bathing in it.

dumb sweet Koolate You talk about the packet of powder and you add your own sugar, Howard? Yeah, but it wasn't the packet. It was the canister, like the two pound. You could just keep scooping it. So the mix, they're already sugar in the mix collaid.

Yeah, you just keep going. Oh, no, not enough Kool-Aid. I'm talking about old school shit, Howard, just the packet and then you take a cups of sugar and just dumping that shit in. All right, here we go. No, love those guys, respect them all. But like, the projection that I thought was going on,

they were saying, like, you could just see, like, guys are playing harder and they're scoring more points because total points is going to potentially matter for stuff at the end. And then the Portland fans were really into. And I'm thinking, like, guys, we're acting as if no one's ever played a competitive fun game in November before an NBA history. Like, we've had good games before. Like, we're acting as if we need this because players just didn't give a shit at all.

We're just going through the motions. They're like, you know, skipping up the court in their sweats with their cell phone in their pocket like Ben Simmons and Philly a few years back. Like the games in November may not have the same field of them as May and June. And yes, the NBA definitely has a problem with trying to make these early games feel more vital and get the fans engaged more and not make it feel like the season's too long and there's not enough intrigue. I get all that.

But it doesn't mean that the games have been duds in past years. It doesn't mean there's never been a competitive game. And I just think the one unprovable part of all this whole experiment, is, were those games more competitive on Friday? Were they more exciting? Were the fans more, I guess maybe, but it's not quantifiable. I don't know how you assess that. And I just felt like some of our friends are just caught up in the excitement and projecting

a little bit. And that's fine. Look, the NBA mission accomplished then because you were into it and you saw it as more important. And then you even, in my view, projected the environment as being more charged up. And if that's really the case or even if it's perceived to be the case, then the NBA has won. Well, if you, I mean, I tend to agree with mostly everything you said there, Howard. The one way you could quantify it, I guess, would be from a fan perspective, if there was more engagement,

if there's more viewership generally on Friday night, you know what I mean? Like, you could technically do that. But I would just speak from a player's perspective. Granted, I didn't plan any cup games. To your point, like, we weren't thinking it was November. And so we were in chill mode. like in a season. Like,

you're still coming out the gates, trying to play good basketball, like trying to get ahead of the, you know, the other teams that might be staggering out of the gates or if you were staggering out, you're trying to play catch up. Like,

November basketball for us wasn't boring and doldrums of, of a playoff chase type of basketball. You're typically, you know, playing really, really hard in November. So I agree with you. The only thing that may have changed

and it would be the fan interaction with it, but I don't think it grossly, you know, incentivized players that go out there and play harder than they ordinarily would in fucking November. I don't think you can sell me on that. I think there was a misconception on that. And I think a lot of these things that the league are doing is doing, they're saying the buzzwords of we need competitiveness in the early season. And they're saying all these things when really it is.

And we all, we've spoke about this on this podcast. What it really is is trying to package this. this league for a new television deal. Okay, and nobody thinking about the competitive balance in November, and it's kind of disingenuous, and I want to get Rogers' opinion on this just for that argument of competitiveness

in the beginning. I think people, I think people, or casual fans need to realize, like, NBA players are ramping, the reason why they're so good in May and June is because they're ramping up to get to that point, right? And maybe you might have this,

might not have the same level of basketball, start the season because you have a lot of new teams that are playing that are trying to figure each other out that are trying to get to a point where they are trying to, you know, get a rhythm and get all these things. Doesn't mean it's like not competitive basketball. Regular season basketball, especially to start, is really competitive. You see the stages from preseason to regular season. Raja, when you hear the argument of guys aren't being competitive and doing this, why do they have to say it like that?

They could just say, yo, we want to just switch it. up and just say it for what it is. That's what they should do. Because it's a ridiculous narrative. It's an absurd ridiculous narrative. Look, NBA teams are very rarely more healthy as you get deeper into a season than you are right when the beginning of the season starts, right? Let's, boom.

You are not fresher in any way, shape, or form as you get later into the season than you are in November. And thirdly, typically, you've trained all summer. You've gone through a training camp beating your head against, like, you. your own teammates and everything that you worked on in the summer, you're trying to bring it out and display it in a way that might get you a new contract, might get you in an early race to make an all-star team, might put your team in the Cadbird seat to be the number one seat.

There are any number of reasons that coming out of the gates, boys are ready to play and firing on all cylinders. Now, to your point, and it's a good point, like as you get later into the season, things might tighten up. Chemistry might develop a little bit better. Roles might get defined in a way that makes the product look a little more seamless. there are things that could get better as you've played, you know, a handful of games.

But playing hard and competing and people being out there like with the game and its integrity in their heart to play it like that, November is a great time of year. Yeah. And Howard, I want to get you real quick on this question to build on what Roger was saying. One of the things that over the years that me and Roger have had like not an issue, but just an annoyance to is Adam Silver. basically just not, like beating around the bush of his main point of what he wants to talk about, which is in contrast to David Stern, right? Why can't Adam Silver just go out and say, we want a new television package. We, it's not about competitive balance. We just kind of want to be a global league and we just want to be like the Premier League and have tournaments and mid-season tournaments to build up excitement for the game. You can say that without saying that guys. And also, that's another argument to the All-Star game.

You could just say, I know there's a competitive thing, but as a commissioner, you could just say the, yeah, we want to just say the truth of it all. Why can't out of the silver be a bit more direct as his, you know, his predecessor, excuse me? I mean, I think it's a tough thing for a commissioner to say, hey, public, NBA fans. We've created this new tournament because we're trying to triple the very, value of our national broadcast rights deal. We need one more thing to sell to Amazon Prime or Apple or somebody. Because that's really like, yes, as a business matter, Logan, you're absolutely right.

The truth of this is when the NBA completes this next round of deals, probably still including Turner, probably still including Disney ESPN, but it's going to include Amazon Prime or Apple or multiple. And someone's going to get the rights specifically. Or YouTube TV, who is already a TV. elite winner. And one of those new partners is going to end up with the rights to the horribly named in-season tournament that needs a better name. And when we get there, it'll be out in the open. This is now branded as being in partnership with these corporations, these sponsors,

and this streamer, right? But until then, you can't, like, it's too cynical to sell it to the public that way. You guys, oh, we got this cool new thing, right? Instead of just, and the way, to Adam's credit, I don't think Adam has ever portrayed this as we need, we need players to care more early in the regular season. Like, it's kind of come in the same conversation with a lot of the player rest policy crack down and other stuff. It's certainly baked into it, Logan, but I think Adam's thing has always been the when I've heard him talk about this because he's been trying to get this for 10 years. He always talks about it as there should be more than one thing to play for, right? And he looks to European soccer and these other leagues where you have something else to play for. for it's not all just about June. The thing is, in this country, in our sports, in North America,

hockey, football, basketball, baseball, and even everything at the college levels, yeah, it's all about the end. The thing at the end matters because it took the whole season to get there. That's why it has meaning. And I think the problem that I've had, thus my skeptic agnosticism or my agnostic skepticism or whatever it may be, is that I don't buy the idea that we're going to care. Like, the question I have universally to anybody who's really psyched about the tournament is, why should we care who wins this cup in December? Because if it's well, this is, this is the other thing, too. So I won't, I won't name him right now. But like, I got to this whole, this became this like deep philosophical conversation with an MBA official

over the summer about this, where he's basically like, it basically came down like, time is just an artificial construct. The calendar is an artificial construct. Championships are just we just created all these things and you just care about this one because it's been around longer and we can create a new one and eventually we'll care about that too. I think it was Mahoney on the group chat pot who was going down this bath too

like saying it's just a piece of tin. We just care about the Larry Braud trumpet. It's just a piece of metal. No, it's imbued with more meaning not just because it's been around for 70-something years. It's because it came at the end. You spent months building up, jockeying for position,

getting home court advantage, playing multiple best of seven series to get there. And then, yes, you were the champion of the whole season. The champion of the NBA Cup is going to be the champion of November and early December. And I don't know what that means. Why should – again, I'm not criticizing it. I'm not saying it's bad. I just don't know why we should care who wins a cup on December 9th or whatever. Yeah, well, you're – I mean, you're talking about rewiring the way a country consumes sports.

Like, we aren't bred to consume them like they do over there. Now, I'll tell you what might move the needle for me. is if you said, hey, we're going to have a cup and the winner of our cup, we're then going to get, like, kind of like the Super League or whatever they call it over there, forget what it was called in Febo, like the Euro League championship.

Like, we're going to get, you know, Cheska and whoever wins that cup and whoever wins that cup. And then we're going to play for an actual world championship every year, a World Cup. Like, do you know what I mean? If you could do that, I personally could get interested in that, right? Because there's always this talk about,

Are you, quick question, are you saying, like, if, like, if whoever won, like, the NBA, the NBA Cup should just, like, play FC Barcelona or something like that or play Real Madrid at some point? Like, if all of the, yeah, so if all of these leagues, right, like, if you had your NBA Cup and, like, the ACB has whatever their, their version of it is, and the Russian League. And, like, you take your, like, seven strongest leagues or what have you. Or it could just be, you know, the NBA versus whoever's coming out of, out of the Euro League there, whoever the winner, because they already had that.

And if those two teams were playing, so we could say year in and year out, like, yeah, this is the world championship. So whoever wins the NBA championship, don't even make your mouth up to say that we're not the world champions, because guess what? We played a cup every year. Like, we'll play the best you got. You play the best. But you know what I mean?

Like something like that, but that might get tricky too. That might get tricky too because I don't know like the, forgive me, I'm just a novice at like soccer. But what about, this is a real question that I have, just honestly. So I'm sure you guys watch more soccer than I do. How would that affect, say the, because NBA is different than, than La Liga or the Premier League. How would that work in your eyes raw? If we have so many international guys in the NBA, right? And some of those guys are probably from the Real Madrid's like Luca or all these other things.

How do you rectify that when you're going on the world stage? Because, like, Luca might be like, no, fuck that. I'm Real Madrid before anything. You're playing, not playing for your national. team, you're playing for your club team. Okay. Like, this is a club team championship, right? So like your club, Luca, you play for Dallas Mavericks.

You don't play for, you know, partisan or or Barcelona. Like, you know, you play for the Maverick. So that's who you compete with in this particular cup. But the ends and outs, the moving parts, I don't know. I'm simply saying that we as a society consume sports the way Howard just kind of articulated, right? Like wherein if you come up, you know, in a soccer culture, you know, cups mean something. Like those derbies and stuff, they mean something, but you've been indoctrinated into that since you were born. Like, that's what you know.

We don't know it. So trying to, you know, change it on us right now to everybody's point. You're like, all right, well, what the fuck does that mean? Like, okay, cool. We watch the cup. The courts are red and blue. I understand where the league's coming from on this, right? Is that if this is around long enough, if it becomes part of the landscape, you get used to it,

then every season will start with, oh, cool, man, we're opening up with the tournament, who's going to win it this year, blah, blah, blah. blah, whatever, it'll come with its own traditions a little bit. We'll start to have a track record of who's won it in past years, all this. But I just, that's fine. But at the end of the day, it's still a championship of what? You want to be the champion of the league. And the fact is, whoever wins the cup, maybe it's one of the top teams,

Bucks, Celtics, Nuggets, Sons, whoever, maybe it's the Pistons, which would be amazing and hilarious. But no one's going to care about it the day after or maybe even five minutes after it's awarded. We're all going to go back to who's getting traded by the trade deadline. Who's leading the All-Star balloting? Because we're now in December. You know, who's playing on Christmas?

It's going to be all back to the usual stuff, right? And by the time the championship, the real championship is awarded in June, we are not going to care or be talking about. We're going to forget about it. And most NBA fans can name year by year. You could go backwards. Last year was that you could name the last 20, 30 champions in a row. I guarantee you no one's going to remember these. Like it's it just doesn't matter.

It's fine. Again, not criticizing it, just skeptical. So it's interesting. Skeptically agnostic. I love it. That's amazing. That's fucking amazing. You asked what I spent my weekend doing.

I came up. I spent the whole weekend coming up with that tour. Coining that term. You should be a writer, Howard. You should do that. That should be something that you pursue. Rob, one of the questions that I have for you, just from a basketball player standpoint and also a competitor standpoint.

At what point, because you know, like, even during, before the season, like, and I don't know if this is just like league propaganda that they brought to the players. It's like, you guys have to be good soldiers with this and you guys have to say positive things about this. They definitely have. We know this. But from a competitive standpoint, like I've heard Draymond say, it's Chris Paul like, you know, we want to win the fucking, we want to win this NBA Cup. I'm gonna just call it the NBA Cup. I'm not calling it NC tournament

because that's a better name. We want to win this NBA Cup and we're going for it. I know by nature you guys are just competitive motherfuckers. At what point are you guys just like, okay, I'm locked in. I want to win this shit.

How do you get from the point of like, oh, like we'll see to fuck that. Let's go. As soon as the ball tips. Because it's what you're wired to do. So as soon as the ball tips, like, you know, if there's something to be won and there's got to be a winner

and a loser of the shit, then I'm trying to win it. You know what I mean? Like, I subscribed to that playing monopoly with the kids. Like, fuck that. You know what I mean?

Like I'm trying to beat you. But I would say this, though. You know, like there are lines to be drawn. Like with anything where Kevin Durant, let's say years ago, you got a championship on the line. You know,

you're injured. You're trying to figure out whether you can win an NBA championship. You roll the dice. Like you're going to, You're probably not rolling a dice for the NBA Cup on a 50-50 injury. Do you know what I'm saying? There's a line we've done on everything.

He's not playing a strained calf going into a torn Achilles. Correct. If it's going to jeopardize your chance to maybe win an NBA championship, then you're not doing it. But if we're comparing apples to apples, healthy bodies, the healthy bodies, let's go, let's win it. How many times have we heard a player or a coach in this league say, yeah, he's taking tonight off because of the ankle.

But listen, man, if this were game seven of the finals, he'd be playing, right? Like, how many times have we heard that? Like, that is as much a part of a reference point on injuries as we've ever heard, right? These are not that because, like, could, you know, I can't remember exactly who played it who didn't the other night. But, like, some significant players were still missing. And they were the kind of injuries where they're kind of nursing them through because it's early in the season and you don't want to burn them out in November. It's not the same level of, like, it doesn't have the same gravitas. It doesn't have the same importance these games.

you're not getting like I know that and maybe listen again unquantifiable maybe Raja there's some psychological thing where if you were putting on the uniform on Friday and going out there and you saw that court and it's different and you know that this now counts double one for the regular season standings but two in these group play standings and eventually if you come out of the group play with a high enough standing with a good record you're going to have the chance to go play for the extra half million bucks and all that stuff Maybe psychologically that seeps in. But I got to think, like, for the most part, these are just other games, right? And Roger just said it, you throw the ball up. We are immediately competitive. You don't. So to me, it hasn't changed anything. Like the group stage games in particular are just regular season games on a goofy court

and a lot of LL, Cool J, Michael Imperioly commercials. When we get to the quarterfinals and semifinals, at that point, Roger, you tell me, I would assume that at that. point when you know it's close right like these games you want to win just because they're games on this calendar they don't necessarily have added meaning you get to the quarterfinals the semifinals the final it's like oh well we can get the cup now we might as well because we're here anyway yeah if you're breaking down the psychology of where we are as as players probably or what i'm what i'm guessing i would be as a player in this scenario yeah look anything up leading up to it this is

regular these are regular games regular regular season games where i just want to win them because i'm a pro and trying to put my team in the best, you know, position we can be in. And these are auditions for every other team in the league for me personally. So this is what we're all going to do. But you are correct. As you get down to semifinals, finals, Howard, I do think you'll see, you know, as as it becomes more tangible, you know, I would probably be locked in in a little bit more of a capacity for those games, even if they're just playing for the NBA Cup because it's just what

your condition to do, right? Like, I'm not saying, again, I don't, I don't think you're. going to see anybody putting their body on the line. Like if there's something that's going to jeopardize the rest of the season, I don't know that anyone's going to be doing that for this. But I mean, they're AAU games from the time we're 15 years old, dude. Like, they don't mean shit. We play, we play 38 AAU tournaments in a season.

Like, the only one that really means something is the championship in the summer or like your, you know, your YBL championship. But boy, you get in the championship game or the semifinals. I want to win that. Like I'm there. You get to the semifinals. You're probably

going to want to win. But I agree. Like I don't think it's changing the dynamic at all. No one's going Willis Reed in the NBA Cup. No one's doing that. No.

And I look from the same, like I had a torn calf in the 2006 Western Conference Finals against Dallas. Right? Like and it was, you know, we were that close to a championship.

And like I could barely move on that shit. We just didn't have any healthy body. So I, acupuncture shut down the nerve in my leg. I went out there dragging a leg around for a couple games. But you're that close to the NBA championship, though. Do you know what I mean? Like that, man, you probably ain't playing through a pooled anything in the NBA Cup.

Howard, I dare you to ask a coach. Yo, would he play if this was the semifinals of the NBA Cup? Dude, I might ask the coach off the record that. I'm definitely working that into some interview sometime between now. in December. I will say, like, I feel like there's a little bit of a generational divide here. Like, like, the cranky old men like me, my boy Mark Stein, my buddy Michael Lee at the Washington Post, like us of a certain generation. I feel like, I feel like we're a little more skeptical.

And again, our friends over the group chat pod don't mean to come full frontal assault here so early in my tenure. Like, I really enjoyed their conversation. And it was a really interesting perspective, in part because. because all those dudes are younger than me. Some of them significantly so. And I think it's like there is definitely a generational divide here. I would guess, again, I don't have any data to prove it. But I'm going to guess the NBA as they're marketing this.

If they could get people in, you know, Gen Y, Z and on down the line all buying in, they're not going to give a crap about cranky-ass Gen Xers like me saying, you know, bah humbug to your cup. I don't know what Jen, my three boys are in, but they all like the NBA and they don't give a damn about the NBA. You know what it is? It did not move the needle one bit. I'm going to keep it to Stizak. The reason why we're rocking with the in-season NBA Cup tournament here at the Ringer is because, I mean, let's be honest.

We kind of help bring it to the mainstream. If you go look back, shout out to Grantland and all the way back, we've been pushing for this. We've been doing it. We bullied a league and they're doing it. I'm standing on that. the league, don't think the league hasn't smacked me over the head with that, by the way, as I've been lightly critical, reminding me of who specifically might be all in on it, who we all might work for.

Yeah, right. Let's say a quick break, and I have a game for you guys called Benefit of the Doubt. That was abrupt. Jump into the NBA action with Fanduel, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers can get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5. money line bet. Plus, all customers get three months of NBA league pass courtesy of Fanduil when they place a $5 bet on the NBA. Man, you know how I am. I'm taking the over on everything. That way, you can watch all the action as you bet on everything from point spreads to player props.

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This is a game that I have conjured in my head over the weekend as I watched a little bit of NBA basketball. Sorry, I was watching a lot of heartbreak. USC lost to Washington. She's just the Raiders. I had to just be reminded there in Vegas again, even after they won. A lot of heartbreak. But I did watch a little bit of NBA basketball. And I just got me thinking, like, which teams that are underachieving in our eyes deserve the benefit of the doubt?

And I am going to go, but first, I want to go with the Milwaukee Bucks, who are in an interesting place right now, new coach, new trade to get a guy like Damien Lillard in, currently three and two. Chris Middleton is in here. It's not off to the fast start that maybe we thought they were going to be on. Howard, real quick, does Milwaukee at this point deserve our benefit of the doubt that things are going to be okay for them. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, we know that the top end talent is there, and this league runs on superstars. So it's early for Damon Janus. They did give up the Bucks a lot of supporting cast, a lot of depth in getting Dame and just in general this offseason. So it's going to take some time to kind of get the rotation order. Yeah, they got a rookie head coach who lost, by the way, his top assistant Terry Stats

under weird circumstances. I don't like that Howard. I don't like that at all. The spidey senses are not, especially with this slow start or kind of It's weird, right? It's weird. I don't know. I don't want to put too much on that, but it's a thing.

It is part of like the whole landscape. Terry Stats leaving on the eve of the season is not great. And it's a rookie head coach. Look at to Adrian Griffin's credit. He just changed up. Right? Like they had changed up the defensive scheme to where Brooke Lopez was not in drop, and now they're going back to that because he's saying, you know, the guys came to me and they said,

we work better defensively this way and we're going to adapt. So the defense was shaky coming out of the gates in part because he tried to deviate from what had been working under buttonholes, or which I get, like every coach is going to come in and try to make their own imprint. But he said, Roger's shaking his head so freaking hard right now. Anyway, I give them the benefit of the doubt because they're going to whatever mistakes are they're making either as a coaching staff, as players, as new guys trying to fit with each other. I think it'll smooth out. The bucks are going to be fine. I'm not worried.

As you're shaking your head. Why are you shaking your head? Well, first let me say I agree with Howard. I will give them benefit of the doubt. I will definitely give them the benefit of the doubt for reasons. For some of the reasons, Howard just put forth. Here's my concern. I try to figure out what happened with Stots and Griff. Griff is one of my vets.

I think the world of Griff. But if you remember, I said, like, you know, the one thing that's really difficult for teams like the bucks or good teams when someone comes in is if they come in saying, hey, I'm changing all of this. Just because it's my way, right? And I get the human side of it from a coach's perspective where you're like, look, I'm going to make this mind and I'll affect this change. And if it doesn't work, then it's on me. And I don't have anyone else to blame. So I was true to myself and here's how it's going to go. But it was concerning, like, when I read kind of what happened,

if this is in fact what happened with Griff and Stott's about, you know, A. G's saying and telling him, hey, don't talk to the guys after you come out of a timeout. I want to have a meeting with you first. Like that sounds really like anal and really kind of like rigid and insecure word. So that's a red flag. And then secondly, this is why I was shaking my head of what Howard. was saying, why the fuck would you be changing their defensive coverage? They're one of the best defenses in the league the last few years.

Like, if you're going to, don't touch that. So kudos to being flexible enough for them to come to you and say, hey, bro, we don't work like that. But what the fuck were you doing? And that's red flag number two. Real quick, I'm going to get back to you because I know you have probably a couple more red flags. But another red flag that I want to add on to your red flags is their offense also sucks.

Well, no, but like you have Damian Lillard and Janice that did a cumbo in their prime. They're 12th at offensive efficiency at the moment, 12th. 1,000% but here's what I'd say to offense, right?

I would say, I would say like and the rebuttal would be well, you extracted a huge defensive piece in Drew Holiday and I would say yeah, but schematically like you're not even talking about a Drew Holiday thing. You're talking more about a Brooke Lopez thing, which is a big, so it doesn't even make sense.

But offensively, there's way more chemistry that goes into like trying to integrate two pieces like that, that are both high usage rate guys that like to play on certain positions on the floor and trying to figure that out, I think is going to take a little bit longer. Defense always comes together quicker than offense. At any level, you take kids out there. The defense is going to look better than the offense does right away. So that is a red flag. Don't get me wrong.

But I could give some grace on the offensive side of the ball and allow you a window a time to figure that out. I don't know why you would be in there, like, tearing down the framework of what they've done defensively. That makes no sense. Yeah. And this is another thing, Howard, and Roger brought it up, even with the Adrian Griffin stuff, when you talk about the coach of the, like the coach, a head coach's insecurity, specifically a first year head coach's insecurity. When immediately when he brought, when you guys brought that up, I'm thinking of Mark Jackson and Golden State with, you know, Brian's all of that, right? Not letting his assistance be available to the media, which isn't like the biggest thing in the world because that that does happen.

But like also just you guys can go ahead and read it, but there's just wreaked of insecurity and it wound up making him isolated and then thus not being a part of the group too. Because what you do when you do that is you inherently divide a locker room, right? You always make and you don't want to put your players in a position where they have to pick sizes specifically this early. Like you've only been here a few months, right? right? Are we kind of like glossing over that fact right now, Howard, when we think about that? Or is that not getting enough attention? Because it's too early to be having these kind of internal staff problems. Yeah, very early. I don't recall too many instances. There's one that comes to mind, but it was a really strange instance. But not too many instances of an assistant coach either quitting or being fired in like October, October, November.

right like that's really unusual and things happen right like you know staffs don't always get along and you have turnover and whatever but like rarely in the midst of a season or on the verge of a season you're going to take care of that in the off season so it had to be really bad i would think for that to happen now i've also heard from people around the league that it wasn't just about that one incident and maybe some insecurity with with edrian griffin and all this it was also like Stotz went in from what I've heard, thinking he was going to have a little bit more to do or a little more authority maybe, if that's the right term, then he actually got it. Maybe he was a little frustrated in the role. It's been a long time.

Terry Stott's was an assistant for a long time before he got head coaching jobs in this league. And so going back to that, I'm sure, is difficult. But we see it all the time. And we also, there's a great tradition in this league of young first-time head coaches having at least one former head coach on their staff. to kind of lean on as the voice of authority writers as like you're not deferring to them. They're not backseat driving. They're not necessarily there to take over.

To Mike Dantone. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There is kind of a backstop, a sounding board. And yes, in case of emergency, break glass. If you had to fire the head coach, you've got a veteran head coach already

sitting there waiting to take over midseason if necessary. I don't think that was the case here, you know, but we've seen those versions too. I just think that it is alarming. It does tell us something. I don't know exactly what it tells us, but it's not great, none of which means that the Bucks season is going to go off the rails or anything or that Adrian Griffin won't prove to be a great head coach.

He may well be, but it's not a good release sign. Okay. All right. Next question to the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to go to Phoenix. Be careful what you say, Roger, because I'm coming to you first. Devin Booker dealing with some injuries.

We have yet to see Bradley Beal into the fold. KD. is having to, what is Roger Froza? Can you say? Oh, Roger. Okay. KD has had to take on the responsibility of the offense of scoring in a lot of ways. And I am skeptical of even when they get to the post. And I've talked about it on this podcast of the Phoenix's ability to guard the

post in a high-pressure situation. I saw Wimbunyama on KD, and it was not looking great over the weekend, right? Whenever that happens, do the sons deserve the benefit of the doubt that everything will be okay? Do they deserve the benefit of the doubt? So that's a, so listen, I know I just gave Milwaukee the benefit of the doubt. I mean, they won a championship. I mean, look, I'm going to give Phoenix the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you believe that, Roger.

There's part of me that doesn't. This is 51, 49, 52, 48. Either way, I could be swayed. Look, they haven't had two of their big three in any real capacity. Not only does that put an like an exorbitant amount of workload on KD, but but like it just throws everything out of whack. Like you know what I mean? Like you're just the times the book has played like the chemistry that you were playing with in the preseason.

Like everything is just funky. And so for that reason, I'm going to give them the benefit it out. Those are three of the most talented players in the NBA right now. I don't know. I don't want to get into like where you have them ranked. But like, I mean, those are three bad dudes on the same team. And so offensively, I think they're going to be really, really good. Now, defensively, interior-wise, will that be an Achilles heel on a quest to a championship, possibly?

So I'm not sitting here telling you they'll win it ultimately. But I do think that they deserve the benefit of the doubt for being better than they are currently and being one of the better teams in the Western Conference when it's all said and done. So the good news is Kevin Durant's playing his ass off. He looks great. The bad news is Kevin Durant's having to play his ass off this much. Minutes aren't that bad yet. he's averaging 35.7 minutes per game, which is about what he did last year.

Interesting during his Warriors years, because they didn't have to burn him out. And obviously he was younger then, late 20s. Katie was playing, like averaging like 33, 34 minutes a game. So just an interesting, you know, quick comparison. But like I don't love that the sons have to ride him this hard right now. The minutes may not be that high, but the workload is high. And you want Durant to speak. especially, you want all of them, but Durant especially is absolutely critical in April

May and if they're fortunate enough, June. And I think the other thing that's alarming is, look, in the offseason, the best thing you'd say about the Sons is if they're healthy, they've got as much talent as anybody to try to win this thing, right? If anybody's position, if anybody's going to try to knock off the Nuggets, hey, the Sons are three stars. I'm not sold on it entirely, but they have the outline of a super team, right? But it was always Kevin Durant's got an injury history. Booker's got, even for a younger player in injury history, Beal's got a massive injury history. And here we are a couple weeks in, and two of the three are already missing, you know, significant time.

And none of it is not injuries that you are projecting to last the whole season or anything, but it's not encouraging out of the gate when the biggest caveat on your team was they'll be okay as long as they can get these guys through the season and they can't even. play yet. So I still give them the benefit of the doubt on the power of their talent alone and on the assumption that those three will get plenty of time together. But that's the other thing too. They need time, right? You need to kind of establish chemistry. Durant and Booker didn't even have that much time together last season after Durant's arrived. They would have like eight games and then. Because he got because Katie got hurt. Yeah, there's some kinks to work out for sure. Here's a, hey, bright, like, bright side of this is their top, their top half of the league, both offensively and defensively right now. All that, all that, you know, being as it may, and it's all true.

Like, they're still sitting there with, with the structure, if you're talking about a house, the bones, the bones appear to be good. So, like, once you get those dudes back and they're, and if they're healthy, you know, I'd like to think that they'd be fine. I'm with you guys. I think I am, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt, but I am very skis. Captical, I don't think that they're going to, if I have to say now, and I'm sure Kerm is going to clip this and put this on our worst take show in a few months. I have been very guilty of that. But I just don't see them winning a title this year. I do not. I don't see it. I think there are better teams. And that's their, I'm only saying title because that is their goal. That is their

stated goal. That is what their actions were with how they are kind of like starting this season with the big three and what they want. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think I love the scoring ability of them, but I don't. And this is something that they did address like, Nerkitz just isn't a great defender for the guys that they need to defend in the, he's not going to guard Yokin. So what's going to happen?

He's probably going to get foul trouble. Some without Aiton is. And they're going to put Kevin Durant on Yokic. It's not going to work. Drew, you makes. It's not going to work, Howard. So I am out. I mean, but who can go?

I mean, no one guard Jokic. That is fair. Okay, Anthony Davis. Same thing. It's down the line of prominent post players that they go up against that they struggle with. And you don't want KD playing in the, so like anybody, right? You put you, you, you get your first line of defense out in the front court.

You got to put KD on him. And why would even if it's even for a little bit, you don't want. him playing defense and taxing himself on the defensive end when you need him to be your closer down the stretch. That's why I just don't see it happening. There's one more that I want to show. There's one more that basically started this game in my head. And that is the Clippers. The Clippers just got James Harden. I think he plays tonight. So I don't really want to get into like the, we don't have a sample size of how they'll look just yet. But I do want to, Ty Lou is

Take a shot, Roger. Go take a shot, Roger. Go ahead. Do we give Howard, since Rogers is trying to be scary right now, do you give Ty Lou the benefit of the doubt that he can make this work? As great of a coach as he is.

I believe in Tai Liu. I do not believe in the overall combination of what the Clippers have or what they've put together here. I think I would actually feel better about it if there were one fewer aging star. I know at a certain point you just want as much talent

as you can get, and especially when you do have an aging team, you're just like, ah, you know what? This guy's going to miss time, so the more guys we have who can step in and keep the offense humming while Kauai's out for a week or Paul George's up. I get that part of it. And that's what Russ's value to them, I think, was

prior to getting Hardin. Do I believe in Hardin at Westbrook? But they third time in their careers together. Worked really well in Oklahoma City when James Hardin was just a scrappy sixth man, and they made the finals as a really young team. Didn't work so well overall, especially by the end in Houston when it seemed like they didn't really want to play together. So now they're back together.

They don't want to move rush to the bench, so they're going to keep them in the starting lineup. So now you've got two non-shooters in the starting lineup. I just think, and on top of that, by the way, I really, I really. about a thousand words on James Hardin, which is on the ringer.com. You can go read it right now. Great website. James Hardin, the first thing he said in his first press conference.

I can't wait. As a newly minted Los Angeles Clipper where he will be playing with two-time finals MVP, Kauai Leonard, multiple-time all-MBA forward, Paul George, and multiple-time all-MBA guard and former league MVP wrestle Westbrook. James Hardin on day one says, I don't play in a system, I am a system. Damn right. All the times in your career to say that,

I don't think age 34 when you've just been traded to a team that you wanted to go to with three other stars who are all great with the ball on their hands and all have great track records just like you do, that is not the time to be saying, it's the James Hardin show. Y'all just sit back and watch. And he may not play out that way.

That may have just been his bravado and his ego talking, and that's fine. I don't want to overemphasize it. but it's not it's not encouraging. If I'm Tailu, I'd be like, oh, for fuck sake, I'd be smacking my head at the moment he said, like, are you kidding me? That screams.

Lack of self-awareness, at minimum lack of situational awareness. Like, that just is so, like, so ridiculous. At maximum, what does it say, Roger? At maximum, what is it say? That you're about to fucking tear down another fucking team? That you're about to just go and like, come on, man, don't get me started, bro.

No, no, Roger. So I'm going to tell you my reaction that I want to hear yours at the second. The time when you heard it. So when I heard it, I was like, yo, is he talking to us? Is he talking to himself, right? Like, is he, like, trying to, like, get himself going or something like that, right? Is he just, you know, because, you know, that happens, right?

And on one hand, I'm like, oh, I mean, I see your point, James. I do see your point, right? And in Houston, you were the system, absolutely. And in Brooklyn, they did play, like, when you were a point guard, they did play around your orbit. same in the Sixers, right? Because you are a ball stopping guard. It's not like we, and I also, then I was thinking like, like, he does have a point.

And then I was like, oh, I do remember watching when James Hardin was the system. It wasn't fun for everybody else on the team, but James Harden, it was a lot of, get this on the TikTok. It was a lot of corner three is just, I'm simulating someone asking for the ball and watching the ball go get shot without. jumping up and down with the arms waving. Yeah, yeah. So I thought it was those two things. And I was like, well, no, James. Like, come on, dude.

What are you doing? What was your, like, immediate, though, reaction? Who told you the clip? Was it my homie, was it my little homie tie? Who showed you? How did you find out? I don't even remember how I heard that shit. I really don't.

I think I just came across it on my phone. And I had to, I replayed it multiple times just to make sure I heard what I thought I had heard. And, you know, you asked, is he talking to us, or is he talking, trying to to hype himself up. I mean, the third, the third possibility is just letting everybody that's already with the clippers know. Like, he could be talking to the locker room. Like, yo, just so you guys know, I'm, we're, everyone understands what I'm coming here to do, right? Which would be, which would just be crazy. And I don't see Ty Lou letting that happen. And let's, let's go back to the comment itself. Yeah, he's right. He's not part of it. He is the system. That's the way he plays. That's the way he's

played, you know, for the better part of a career. it didn't produce a championship. But let's say, hey, in his prime, there were some reasons outside of his control that led to them not winning a championship. And in theory, he could have very easily won a championship. He was that good. He ain't that dude anymore.

You're not that. And so while you are a system, that's no longer capable of winning at a high level in the NBA, in my humble opinion. Now, if you want to come in and like a lot of players do as they, you know, turn the page into another chapter of their career, become, you know,

another version of yourselves that can contribute to winning. I'm all for that. I just have no faith in him being able to do it. Like, I don't think he wants to do it. I don't think he cares to do it. And I think, again, like his comments, they might not have been for you, myself or Howard, and they might not have been to hype himself up.

I think they were aimed at Kauai, Paul George, and Russ. Like, look. And to some degree team, Louie. Which goes back to the self-awareness argument, bro. Like, what the fuck, dude? What is going on? You have no leverage. And also, bro, you're coming into somebody else's house.

And I don't look, like, I think really believe, like this isn't, sorry. Howard, keep your thought. But I just want to be clear because sometimes people, you think just because someone says something, they 100% believe it. That's not always the case. Sometimes people, to Logan's point, you can gas yourself up to say so shit. You say it with your chest, even though you don't really mean it. I think dude is so diluted.

He really believes that. Like, I think he believes at this point, you know, that ball in his hands, ask Russ to stand in one corner, spot Paul Georgia, tell why get the fuck out the way, and I'm going to take the clippers to a championship. That is how wild I think he's on, on this one. I sincerely hope that it was more bravado and less him actually believing that. And of all the different options of who he was speaking to, if it's the one where he was speaking to the locker room, that is probably the worst of all the possible audiences that he would have, could have, could have, in town of that for. And all the time I've covered

this league, Raja, and you know this well, I think it's always been really interesting. When you see guys come in, like the best of the best, the really super talented guys, and especially guys who have the ball in their hands a lot, right? It's usually guards or wings. The guys who can do a lot with the ball in their hands, both score and playmaking, and they spend the first half of their career, winning individual accolades, chasing scoring titles, and trying to figure out the proper balance, the ones who actually have a conscience and some self-awareness, trying to strike the proper balance between shooting and playmaking.

scoring and playmaking, right? When to involve my teammates? When to just call my own. Obviously, like, listen, I'm heavily influenced by the fact that my first seven years covering the NBA, I was covering Kobe Bryant, who famously struggled with this balance. But when he got it right, that team was fucking unstoppable. And when he was too much following his own impulses and getting a little self-indulgent, that's when things would go off the rails. That's when he and Shaq would have problems. And then the other data point on this, I always think about as like the Boston Celtics of Pierce, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett, right? Three guys who had done a bunch on their own.

They came together at the exact right time, right? That was the theme of the season, right? One of the major themes of that season was they were all at that point in the early 30s. They'd done a lot individually, but they never gotten anywhere in the postseason, and it was a time to everybody to sacrifice, and they understood it because they'd traveled that journey already. Sometimes you can't go to, I don't want to pick on like Anthony Edwards because he's obviously a great young player. But like in Anthony Edwards, you can't go to him on day one and say, listen, look at what Paul Pearson, these guys.

It won't matter to him. No, no, no, I got to find my own way. I've got to, I got to, like, you know, sow my oats or whatever as a score. I've got to go do this thing. And then eventually you settle in and you realize for the sake of the team winning and for your own sake, too, to get to the highest peaks, you've got to find the right balance. You have to sacrifice.

And you would think that James Harden at age 34, having certainly slowed down some and having played with a ton of different stars in the course of his career, would recognize that this is the time when you say, you know what, I'm going to dial it back a little bit because I have an opportunity here and potentially a very short window with three other guys who are all in their mid-30s. This is the time for us to all help each other out to get to a place that three of the four of us have never been, right? Kauai Liner two times final MVP. Paul George, Russ Westbrook, James Hardin, never won a championship. This is your chance, but you can't do it if you think you're still the system. And I want to just real quick before I toss it back, in James Hardin's partial defense, he was a really good teammate to Joelle Bede last season, for the most part. Playoff failure notwithstanding.

M.B. won the MVP in part because Hardin was willing to be a really good playmaker. He led the league and assists during that brief time. time with Brooklyn before things went off the rails. Hardin was very good as the point guard who was, he, he ratcheted down his usage rate by a lot. Let Kyrie and Kevin Durant carry the up. Like he's been willing to do it in spurts, but his rhetoric last week undermines all of that because it makes me think you don't really want to do that. Ross has a different perspective on your opinion, Howard. No, I can concede that he was good with Joel Embed last year. I would just say I don't think that made him happy.

that's exactly the problem. And that's what I wrote to me. Nothing makes him happy. I don't think that made him happy. And I would just go back to Brooklyn. No, he didn't concede that in Brooklyn. I know that for a fact. Those first couple,

the first month or so? I've been told for a fact that. No, you've got a lot of ties to that. That he was not happy doing that and was pushing back against it at every turn, that he was not trying to either. I mean, he did it happy.

I'm just saying he did it well. Which leads to a whole other problem. And that could be true, Howard, but that leads to like, look, you can't hide in a locker room full of your brothers and your peers. They know when you're in there, like, you know, doing something just because you have to do it, but it's making you miserable. And that's equally as infectious on, you know, the negative side, right?

Like, they're like, so, so, look, I hope I'm wrong. I can say that James Harden offensively was, was an unbelievable thing at times to watch, right? And I hate to see the NBA player or any athlete for that matter that can't understand that said time is past and now we've become this different version of ourselves. And to have success late as the sunset and we got to accept that. Like I hate watching that. But I just don't know that he's there yet. And that's unfortunate. And the comments at the press conference to take it back to where we started.

Like, I mean, if that's what you're getting up there and saying as you're being introduced as a new member of this team, I have some real, real, real reservations about how well that's going to work. And the thing that with James, that is always kind of just like flabbergasted me was it seems that he wants, he always wants his cake and eat it too. He wants to be the man that matters while winning a title. and it goes back to the self-awareness and all those things. But you can't have it there. If you want a title at this stage in your career, you're not, you've got to rely on Kauai and PG and just go into your role. And like, why even fuck it up that way? I don't know.

I don't know why you would do that. One more thing. I saw Wimbunyama against Kevin Durant twice over the weekend. And my God, he looks great. And he's amazing. I know they lost the other night, but I have to say, real quick from both of you guys. Is it too early to say that Spurs can go into the play in? Okay.

Okay. That's fine. All right. Howard, yes? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There was, you see where I'm going with it?

Did you see how good Wimby was? Jesus. Oh, my God. Like, are we? How is this not a conversation so far? I think I've reached the point already of like, I'm not ruling anything out. Like, obviously certain things are ruled out. They're not winning a championship in this season.

No. They might win a cup I don't know I'm not I'm not ruling out a run at the play in only because there's so much parity in certain sections

of the West not at the top the top there's the very top and there's a bunch of teams that are right behind the nuggets that could get to their level but there's a

there's a swath of teams there that it's like it could go either way like Dallas is off to a really hot start I'm not sure they're going to

maintain this the Grizzlies are off to a horrific start I'm not sure that they're really going to be that bad but if the Grizzies are going to fall out, which is possible, that's going to open the door for one of these young teams that's on their way up.

Like, I think it's too soon to say the Spurs should be in the play-in race, but it's not too soon to say that they might end up there anymore. That's fair, but you said, you said shoe-in. What's the term you used? You said shoe-in or penciled in. Would you say? Could we consider them to the play-in? Did the play-in?

Could they be consideration? Say it again. Say it again. No, but that's not what you said. What did I say? That's, no, that's not that. I mean, maybe forgive me, listener, if I'm wrong. But I thought you asked me, like, definitively, can we say that they are in the playing?

And I was, I don't, I can't, I can't say that yet. But I agree with Howard again. I'm really scared with this question because I, every time I watch Wimbuniamma, I'm like, this dude is going to the Hall of Fame right now. Like, put him up there. He's great. Like, did you see what he did to your sons? Roger, geez. That was just, that was just.

Oh, my gosh. Slow down. Fucking had a couple shots, but you fucking did a couple shots. Bray fucking in a couple shots. Had a little fucking tip-thung. Like, come on, bro. Like, what are we doing, bro? Quick, quick,

Wembenyama footnote. Could somebody somewhere put on a large piece of paper Wembenya and then a massive M in like a hundred point, but the rest of it is in 12 point. And the M. That'd be fire. That's a coppable jersey for sure. And slap it down in front of every announcer everywhere so that people stop saying

Wembeñana. Can you put it on this jersey? That would be buyer. Could you put it on the jersey? That would be fire. If you put just the M on the jersey, the uppercase M, that'd be icy. It's not that hard to say, folks. Like, you don't need some fancy accent.

There's no oomlots or anything. Like, it's Wemba, Yama. It's an M. It's not that hard. Okay. Straight up. Also, I mean, we're about to get out of here. Just want you guys to know, we might be talking about Wem and Yama every podcast

because I just bring him up out of nowhere. And I'm, you know. Make it a sponsored segment. There you go. Hey, State Farm. How loud us. We're talking about Wimby. Um, that has been another edition of motherfucking Mondays.

Thanks to Howard motherfucking Beck for pulling up. Um, we'll see you guys on Thursday. Um, tap in, talk to us, talk all the shit. Go listen to our interview with Gilbert Arenas. It was tight. All the shits. I talk to you guys soon. Bye.

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