The Ringer NBA Show - Free Agency Bonanza: Paul George’s Decision, Klay’s Next Move, and Draft Ripple Effects | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Justin, Rob, and Wos come together to discuss some of the initial news coming out of the beginning of NBA free agency. They discuss the news around Paul George and Klay Thompson, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope signing with the Magic, and more. Then, they are joined by J. Kyle Mann to talk about a handful of guys drafted in the top 10 and how their selections have impacted their team in free agency and moving forward (56:54). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Guest: J. Kyle Mann Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Tucker Tashjian Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers, dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Van Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman, and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And welcome to group chat for this special mid-free agency bonanza. I am Justin Barrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney and stepping away from Magic Johnson's house for his first free agent meeting.

Big Was, what is up, boys? I'm good, man. Just know if I ever leave group chat, I don't need y'all to put out a press release and mention the constraints of Spotify's pay structure as to why I had to be gone. Please don't do that. BBA in that damn thing about four or five times. It was ridiculous. You are, of course, referring to the Clippers statement about Paul George, which also says many

very nice things about how he made them contenders for five years in what seems to be, Justin, his imminent departure from the Clippers. Still hasn't left the Clippers, though. Not quite. So they put out a release just saying that he might leave or is expected to leave soon. It's just one of the many, many weird things that we've already experienced in this new era of free agency, which apparently, begins with absolutely nothing happening for the longest amount of time that I can remember.

We went like, what, an hour and a half before we got a deal? Yeah. Honestly, I think a lot of it has to do with Paul George, where he is in a lot of ways the first domino to fall. Teams like Orlando, teams like the Clippers, teams like the Sixers, who it seems like he may be a future Sixer, were waiting to hear his decision. And so as soon as we started hearing not necessarily the final Paul George determination, but Contavius Caldwell Pope had made his choice, these other teams around the periphery of

those conversations are starting to make moves and make their decisions. That's when you know, whether it's public or not, the domino has already started to tilt, if not fall. Yeah, it's been a weird one. You know, I was thinking back to the days when when LeBron James was just on a, what was it, the Boys and Girls Club chorus. Yes, right. It was a fake library with a bunch of vitamin water behind him. I was thinking about the vitamin water before, yeah, because that was also just like a a plug, right? That was just product placement. That was the glory days of free agency. And to see now what's happening was where we're just kind of like waiting and we now have the guys resigning before this. I don't know how you feel about it, but this feels jarring and weird to me in a way

that I'm still reconciling. Yeah, I mean, once the Supermax became a thing and guys, instead of chasing free agency decided they would sign with their team and then force their way out afterwards, that pretty much watered down the excitement around free agency. And it's funny because the last time, like, consequential players actually signed with new teams in July was 2019 when Kauai signed with the Clippers got Paul George in the trade as well. KD and Kyrie going to Brooklyn at the same time leaving Golden State in Boston respectively. Once guys decided that they would just bully their front offices

into making deals that, you know, they're trading freaking teams are giving away picks seven years out or whatever. This is what we've got, but it seems like we're actually going to get an all-MBAer, all-star, switch teams, again, for the first time, since 2019 free agency. And for the first time in a while, a team that has cleared a ton of cap space

actually getting to use it by signing a player rather than just kind of like signing and trading and absorbing that player into the space or whatever other machinations have led stars to change teams in recent years too. Yeah. So before we get into Paul George, order of events today, we're coming to you at 552 Pacific Time.

So anything is based on the information we know. Some deals started to trickle in right before we recorded, but we'll try to update you as we go along. Kyle Mann will also be joining us on the back end of this show. So we'll talk to him about the draft. We'll talk to him about his thoughts on free agency. But we should start probably with the Paul George deal. And the one thought I had, Rob, coming out of this is like, Daryl kind of set himself up to be the most viable option, the most viable alternative should chaos ensue. And I kind of have to hand it to him. He really did end up being that for Paul George after what happened, we'll figure it out with the Clippers,

but it seems like some sticking point over the language in the contract, how many years it could be. Yeah, and I think part of the reason it's seeming to work out for the six or so far is that with the guys that they had on hand, Joel and Bede and Tyrese Maxey specifically, there's a lot of room between them to work for all kinds of stars. And so it was always less about Paul George specifically and more about when a guy becomes available, they can be the team to strike. They can be the team to receive them with cap space, with the chance to play with an MVP, with the chance to play with an upcoming star who can take a lot of the pressure off you. We've been talking about it for months with Paul George because he was such a natural fit for them. And I think playing with Maxine

and Beat is going to make his life so easy. So that pitch really sells itself. And now we get the process of if Paul George does become a sixer, Philly's got to fill out basically the rest of the roster with supporting role players. And we're seeing kind of the initial stages of that already. Yeah, you got to be in it to win it. You know, they had the requisite cap space to be there if, you know, say a star and his team are at an impasse over freaking literally one year. You know, of course it's like 50 million extra or whatever it is, but it was just one year that Paul George and the Clippers were a part on. And now the Sixers get to reap the benefits of that decision. And honestly, you know, I know we're going to get in.

into what this means for both teams. I actually think the Clippers did the right thing here, guys. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know how or why you could watch what they did last season and think this needed more investment. I don't think so. I think it's ran its course.

It's been five years of the Kauai and Paul George Corps, and the results have been borne out. Like, it's just not good enough. And so this, I did it, they just need to be dedicated to this just because, like, I don't actually buy it. Like, I'm sorry, at full strength, you guys were a freaking first round exit quite badly. And so I think they're doing the right thing. Like, I don't think Paul George is the kind of guy that can carry your offense anymore. And that's what he's going to, what he would have been asked to do with the clippers, period.

However, being a supplementary kind of guy, man, like being basically the third option on Philly where he's overqualified for, like the money makes all the sense. The years make all the sense because he's not being tasked with being the engine and the driver of that team. I think it makes so much sense for both teams.

Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense for George. I think the fit is pretty perfect. And anything, it seemed like his sticking point It was more the contract terms and probably like how long he can keep going with the whole Kauai experiment and probably also that he wanted to be in L.A. For the Clipper side of it, I would understand it more if the alternative was workable because it seems like now they're just going to be left digging through the crates and trying to find another veteran to fill that spot. And as we've seen, part of the calculus with them is typically, well, what do we do when Kauai gets hurt? And now it

seems like the drop off from Paul George to, let's say, a DeMar de Rosen plus other stuff is pretty stark and significant to the point where I don't know if they'll be even able to reclaim like the first roundout team that they've been consistently in this era. Yeah. Kauai Leonard is 33 years old. You just re-signed James Hardin for $35 million a year. It feels like the clippers are just going to be a worse version of what they just were, which

as you said, was, is a first round out to begin with. So I think if they were hard pivoting to a new era. of Clippers basketball, I could understand the vision. As it stands, it just feels like they don't want to pay Paul George for the fourth year, which I get. I'm not saying that fourth year is going to go well for anyone who's on the hook for that money at that point in time. But the alternative is kind of bleak. I just don't think the clippers are going to be very good at all. Yeah, why is that the line to draw? Like, we've given over so much. And maybe that's it. Maybe the compounding effect was we've given so much to Paul George. We've given so many draft picks just to make this team work. We have to draw a line.

but like you're already so fucking committed on this team. Why is it just like we can't have Paul George in year 38 or whatever it is going to be on that fourth year as opposed to year 37? Like, why is that the difference of all things? I think it's honestly just step one of them starting over. Like this is just what it is. Like they've made a decision that they're doing something else. And the year's thing is part of it. Like I think because I think Kauai even after this year,

have two years left on his deal. It'll still be a pretty bad deal because he never plays. But I'm sure, like, they probably said to themselves, look, man, if it's just two years left, we could find somebody to take the guy, you know, and we could get some stuff for it, and we can move on. I think they probably looked at Paul George. Like, look, man, if we pay you guys, we give you four more years. Or God forbid they have given him five, which they could have, because, you know, they're his current team. Like, that deal becomes a Zach Levine. I mean, albatross pretty quickly. I understand that.

They're like, look, we're going to pivot. Whether you're here or not, the pivot is happening. So, like, again, I didn't watch the Clippers, especially towards the end of last season. I think this is something that absolutely needs to go on for as long as humanly possible. I just, I don't feel that way. So, again, I do give them props for just being like, look, man,

you kick rocks with that four-year deal. Sorry. I don't know that I'm ready to give any team props for just like not resigning good players for monetary reasons when they could. And look, we have plenty of teams to talk about in that vein today. Everyone is running very scared

of the second apron right now. The Clippers, perhaps, among those teams. And from that perspective, you could absolutely understand why they would want to turn the page. If the prospect of bringing the clippers back is that you're also going to have all these limitations on how to improve that core,

that's a non-starter. So, yes, they need to pivot. I think I'll believe it when I see it. Frankly, I just would have preferred the outcome where you re-sign him. And then in a year or 18 months, you trade Paul George. But, Rob, like, think of all the hand-ringing we've done about the two Js in Boston. Yeah. These guys were going to conference finals every freaking year.

Yep. Okay. And we were just hand-wring crying. Do we got to separate these guys? Do we got to go in another direction? Blah, blah, blah. I'm talking about the collective media. You don't think you were ever a part of the breakup, Jason and Jalen course?

I would never. I would never. All right. I definitely was deep into that. And again, but look at the success they had. And we were trying to say, man, it might be time to do something different. Now look at what the Clippers have done for five years. It was time to do something different for the Clippers too. What they've chosen to differently is signed Kevin Porter Jr.

for the minimum. If anything, I think the lesson from the Celtics example is to not do something different. right? Like is to keep going and then maybe hope for augmentation on the fringes are their 20s though. You know, that's that's very different. It's a totally different scenario. But like the clippers are still going forward with the basic outline of the team that they were without Paul George like simultaneously to sign Hardin. And the Hardin deal I'll say pretty good. It's two years, 70 million, but it's a player option on the second deal. So it could only be like a one year run just to play out whatever string with Kwai you have less. And maybe you trade both of them at. at a certain point. But like, we should say because of that player option for James Hardin, Hardin now has the ability to veto any trade that he is involved in because of that option. Good for him.

It's just like the team isn't changing. So like I am in favor of a soft pivot if that's what's happening. Like we're selling, you're going to get the same old clippers to anyone who's buying into a dome season ticket packages. But in actuality, we're actually focusing on the future. But it doesn't seem like if you look at the specific detail, They're actually at that point yet. And so it's like it's a little kind of a mashup in a way that I don't particularly find

it easy to square right now. We're bringing on Kyle Mann a little later to talk us through some of the drafts, some of these for agent moves. Is that a soft pivot for group chat? Are you guys trying to phase me out Paul George style and replace me with Kyle Mann? Is that what's happening today? We haven't released any press releases yet, but, you know, be on the lookout. At least be kind of you do.

first and last time Kyle man is ever analogized to Kevin Porter Jr. Oh, no, no, yeah. That's not the comparison anyone is making. I promise you that. He's the Norm Powell

in this situation, I think. Okay. Can I ask you this, though? So now I almost feel like we need to pour one out for the Paul George era five years. Sure. With the clippers.

So now that it's practically said and done, the price for George was Shee Gilcher's Alexander, which, woof, uh, Danil Gallinari was at that point, as the kids might remember, a solid player, uh, five first two swaps. Now, on the face of it, the, the picks actually don't seem that extreme because everyone has followed suit and paid pretty much the same price for it. We got the McHale Bridges deal pretty recently. That's a pretty similar package, uh, in terms of picks.

Shea obviously swings it completely the other direction because he's, uh, in his prime 20-something MVP. candidate. Does this now seem like one of the worst deals of all time, considering that you only got those precious five years with Paul George? I feel like this was going to be the window. I didn't see the Paul George Kauai thing as being the clippers forever and ever, so much as here's a concrete window of contention. They kind of got that, but also they were just kind of hurt the whole time.

And this is where obviously knowing everything we know now, in particular about Shay, you don't do that deal. as constructed. That would be ridiculous. But isn't Shea living kind of almost the best version of his basketball trajectory from that point? I know I didn't expect him to become an MVP.

Clearly the Clippers didn't expect to become an MVP. Nobody expected him to become an MVP guy. For sure. Finish second and have nobody thought this at the, nobody. So for him to get to this point is an incredible turn, an incredible achievement, not something that anyone could have banked on.

And so I understand, And even in retrospect, why the clippers rolled the dice the way they did. It's just in the long view of history, it's going to look fucking terrible because Shea is that good. And let's not forget, it was Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. Yes. At the time, all the reporting was that Kawhi Leonard told them, go out and do a deal or else I'm going to sign with the Lakers. And I know there's people that's like, oh, he would have never played with LeBron and blah, blah, blah. He's not a coward.

Blah. It was just leverage. Whatever. That's what he told the Clippers. So they did that deal because that's what it took to get Kauai Leonard coming off of a finals MVP. But this guy looked superhuman, okay? Like, it was a no-brainer at the time. Like, there was nobody arguing the idea.

First of all, because they, quote, unquote, stolen from the Lakers, everybody loved that. It was all Lakers incompetence. All Lakers, blah, blah, blah. Like, they were kidding. Everybody loved that part of it. And then again, you know, these two incredible perimeter players who at the time, everybody thought were, you know, basically two of the best perimeter guys in the league. Paul George himself was coming off of finishing third in the MVP voting that year. Yeah.

Like that's the guy that they went out and got that be like trading for Luca or something right now. Okay. Like, let's ease up maybe a little bit. I'm just saying he's the third, he was the third MVP candidate this year. Not all third MVP candidates are created equal. Okay, cool. I'm just saying. At the time, this shit was, it was obvious that they should have done this.

Yeah. Like, obvious. And, you know, for most of that first season specifically, everybody just knew the Clippers were going to win the championship. Every single media person you talked to, everybody was just like, oh, the Clippers are unbeatable. The Clippers are unstoppable. I mean, Marcus Morris. Oh, my God, they had it. Marcus Morris. I forgot about Marcus Morris.

That's what it was. I know it's like it's in the past, but I remember this moment because I was up there, damn there every single game. And boy, if the Clippers management wasn't the most cock sure people I'd ever seen in my life, dude, they were so satisfied with themselves. And I think, you know, that regular season before the pandemic,

they did look like legitimately the best team in the NBA. They looked dominant. Everything was working perfectly as if they designed it. And then, you know, 3-1 lead got squandered. Kauai Leonard Damned never finishes another playoff series. It's just, you know, it is what it is. So one of the worst deals in NBA investors. I think we could all agree.

Well, who do we want to be? Like, do we want to be the people who judge the trade now or the judge the trade on the night in the logic of that moment? Because I think in the moment, Roz is right. A plus. In retrospect, C-minus C, given the outcome, that we know to be true? Yeah, I think, yes, I think a lot of people praise what they did.

And I think if you were to bring us back to that time, they still do that. Although I will say there was some quibbling, including in terms in like the building with the clippers about whether or not they were paying too much to get there. And like, if you were to look back and say, like, what was kind of the defining error of the Kauai Paul George era? It was kind of like bending over backward for stars that in a way that like really compromise how the team was run and doing so in a way that like even like most franchises wouldn't and then obviously that extends to their ability to handle injuries and like how they

approach that all of that and so like there's that aspect to it too but man let me let me say when you lose you almost always lose ugly and it almost always looks bad in retrospect what you gave up to get where you are if you can't punch it all the way through the title and the Clippers didn't really get close very often. It's going to look ugly. But look at the Knicks trading for McHale Bridges. That's a lot to give up for McHale Bridges. But guess what?

You get a great player. The Sixers are about to commit a ton of money to Paul George. The exact centerpiece of this Clippers team with all of his injury history, even five years older now than he was when he joined the Clippers. But you get Paul George and you get to content. And so you have to give up to play at this level. And sometimes you can't even deliver on those terms. but I just think whenever you lose,

whenever the bottom on your team falls out, whether you're the clippers who never quite got there, whether you're the warriors who are kind of imploding with their historic core before our very eyes, it always kind of goes ugly. Well, now that seems like the Sixers have Paul George, we don't know for sure, but it seems like they are,

in air quotes, the strong front runners. This seems pretty fucking fantastic. I'm quietly, the Celtics, it was reported that Chris Thoubts, Porzingis might be out until next year, like the calendar year 2025. And while they still have clearly a lot in order to get by in the interim, I can't remember a guy who missed half a season and then was just gangbusters from there on out. And the team like really made a go of it as a result of that. So I'm like increasingly worried about their

next season. And so the door is kind of open in the east. I mean, we talk about the Knicks with bridges and whatnot. But I kind of think like as long as everyone's healthy, which is a big if, and it's probably one of the things we should talk about with the Paul George and Embed combo as opposed to Paul George and Kauai. But like, if this works, pretty nice. Extremely nice. Let's say this about the Celtics, though. They're coming in with a 14-game cushion over second place in the east based on what they had last season. They just won a title without Chris Stap's Swarzingas being anywhere near functional. So if he's even mobile by the end

of whatever their season is next year, I think they're going to be pretty freaking good. Now, can they get signed the regular season? Well, they have to, because Al Horford's not playing 48. We know that. So honestly, O'Shea Brissette might have to play big minutes.

If he returns, like they're going to need bodies to play the five or a way to fill those minutes to alleviate the fact that Porzengis isn't going to be there. But yeah, to your ultimate point here, not only is the East, overall going to be tougher next year, but it's going to be tougher on Biggs. It's going to be tougher if you are Chris Staps for Zingis. You're going to have to deal with Joelle and Bede with a reloaded team,

with Yannis coming at you with probably an improved team in Milwaukee, with the Knicks being better and more versatile than ever before and pulling you into the pick and roll and slicing and dicing you that way. So it's looking like a much more formidable conference for sure. They so seamlessly integrated Chris Stabs, those first two games into what they were doing after, like in the NBA final, y'all. I'm just not that worried about it.

Like, if he comes back and he's reasonably healthy, they don't need him to play the whole regular season. They could run up a great record without the guy. I don't think, I'm not worried about that. The Celtics should be the favorites to come out of the East next year. They're freaking jibs. But, yeah, the Sixers, I think, are better than they were last year. Obviously, it feels like they've completely upgraded in a way that's like

all the things that we've, you know, sort of derided Tobias Harris for never having done in his role as the third guy in Philly. Like, Paul George is going to be so much better at all of that stuff, at the shooting at the 101 shot creation, just all of it, the playmaking. Everything is just so much better with Paul George in there. But again, as Justin mentioned, this is a guy who,

he's no Ironman. He's not Mikhail Bridges playing 83 games in a season, right? Like, this guy is very often hurt. Joellen Bede's injury pass is well documented at this point. But when they're right, they should feel like they have as great a chance as anybody in the NBA to beat the Celtics next year. And listen, the Sixers, if they do and do you get Paul George, are now a big three. And if you look across the NBA, teams with big threes are having a lot of difficulty working in those fours. or fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth or ninth guys. And so the sixers are going to be limited

to what they could add around these guys. They also added Andre Drummond, two years, 10 plus million. I actually like that deal. I think he's like a perfectly credible backup for Embed. And as we've seen, Embed needs one of those guys to spell him when he misses his inevitable 20 or so games. And then they also signed Eric Gordon because, God forbid, they don't sign a former rocket. But like the margins, it seems like matter more. in the NBA, as we're seeing. The Celtics being lock solid from one through seven made a huge difference. The Nuggets goes on and on, the wolves.

It's just teams are deeper and just better throughout the roster. And so it's going to be interesting because the Sixers are now a pivot to that. And they are led by two guys who are going to miss games. So those scenes will show perhaps more than they would for three supremely healthy guys. And they're also going to have to replace everybody else, right? It would be one thing if you had these other kind of load-bearing pillars of your lineup. But what's going to happen with Kyle Lowry, who's going to be an attractive for agent? What's going to happen with Kelly Ubre, who turned out to be massively underpaid last season on the Sixers?

They really need guys like that to come in. And we saw in Phoenix the diminishing returns when you have to go to bat every time with basically minimum salaries or bargain exceptions and where that can leave you as a team when you have to stack all those guys on top of each other. So I think Drummond is a great start, honestly. a good veteran backup. And not only that, but the kind of rebounder at the five, like an actual rebounder at the five,

who lets you play smaller at the four when you need to. So if Paul George is your full-time four or your part-time four, you can get away with stuff like that when you have a backup like Drummond who is going to step in for a beat for a meaningful amount of time, we would think. Well, speaking of teams that need depth

in order to succeed, our friends of Denver Nuggets, I'm sad to report, have cheaped out yet again. Our friend Kenny has left the bosom of Nicola Yokic's beautiful basketball and just right in the pocket passes. And he's going to Orlando, $66 million of the player option in year three. Got to say, not as much as I thought it would take to pull him out of Denver wise. What do you think here?

I'm extremely disappointed in the nugs here. Admittedly, I get a bit irrational about KCP. like he's one of my favorite guys in the league to watch. But he so obviously fit everything they're about there. You know, he was doing the campaign about wanting to be a Nuggets for Life all season long. And just the freaking collective bargaining, man, the salary cap is going to be going way, way, way up. And $22 million a year on a three-year commitment.

for a dude that was so clearly part of the core that took you over the top for a championship just seems completely ludicrous to me. And the idea that you already have his replacement in House and Christian Brown, I mean, good God. What, like, what, that level of thinking is nuts. And just so people at home understand

most GMs, all GMs, not most, all GMs, they could start to start fast. In their own draft picks. They do. They all do. Oh, yeah. Well, they've gone through a month's long process of having to defend them and explain what they love about them coming into their careers. So they're already invested from day one.

Yes. And so Calvin Booth obviously loves Christian Brown. I think Christian Brown's a nice player. You know, I like him in his role as a bench guy, spark plug, you know, real physical defender. Nice slasher. Has terrible handle. It could improve upon it. But like, I like Christian Brown.

Ready? high IQ guy. No, no, no one said that. No one said that. He's actually really athletic, not sneaky either. Yeah, just straight up. But just the idea, man, that this guy is ready to step up into the role

of being your starting shooting guard for a team that wants to compete for the championship. He did not show that last year. No. And so this is just so disappointing. And Denver's ownership group, even though they're richer than God, they have a reputation for being cheap,

as all hell. And this does nothing to dispel that. So Denver broke off a piece of what we know is a championship core and one of the best starting lineups in basketball because they did not want to pay Contavius Caldwell Pope like an actual starter. That's straight up what happened. And if anything, to your point, 22 mil a year, maybe undermarket for a quality starter in a lot of cases.

It's very concerning. I don't think there's any conceivable way there is an actual replacement. outside the team lined up. This isn't a thing where there's like a move to come. The Nuggets don't really have that kind of flexibility unless they want to trade someone like Michael Porter Jr., which would change the shape of their team. The elephant in the room with all of this is the money.

And it's not just the Nuggets ownership got cheap and don't want to pay it. Jamal Murray is about to sign a four-year, I believe $209 million extension. Next summer, Aaron Gordon is going to be due for a massive new deal. And so the question for the Nuggets with KCP is really are you okay with being over the second apron? And clearly they were not.

And so the philosophical, the existential debate involving that particular line in the sand of your team salary is already well underway. But maybe nowhere, like nowhere in a greater spotlight than with the previous champion Denver Nuggets who have now given up a pretty much essential player to their team. Yeah. And it really just like rubbed salt in the wound that Booth was pretty flippant about the possibility of this happen. on draft night, where he basically foreshadowed that this was going to come, outright calling KCP like a fourth or fifth starter, or insinuating, like, those are the type of guys that they're going to have to turn over in order to continue to compete, which, like, I don't disagree with him in a broad sense.

Yes, a lot of, like, dynasty type of teams have a way of backfilling the other spots in the roster around an existing core. But it's just like, you're kind of missing the point one, because that rock solid starting five was, I think, what differentiated the Nuggets and including Yokic, obviously, from the rest of the pack when they did win. And two, it's just like the guys you're bringing in to soldier in after the fact,

outright probably lost you the second round in that game seven when you had nobody else to turn to because you didn't support the bench, you went draft picks. So, like, they didn't learn the lesson from last postseason, and yet he's out here kind of bragging about his overall approach about he's like almost light your head of the sort of cap things that we're talking about.

And I'm kind of like, you got to be right on one of them. And right now you don't have the benefit of the doubt. Well, especially when there's been some reporting today from Tony Jones at the Athletic that the Nuggets offered a similar three-year deal. We don't know the exact numbers behind that.

Would it really hurt for Calvin Booth to say something nice about Contavius Calfo Pope in that moment? He's not wrong about the fourth and fifth starter, but when a guy is a free agent, you tell them something pretty. That's what you do. You do the performance.

You show them how valuable they are to your organization, especially when they are now a two-time championship minted player. Kenny deserves some respect. Also, your fifth starter is Michael Porter, Jr. Please. Give me a break. I mean, it should be noted that in a lot of those really, like when push came to shove situations,

it was Brown coming in for Porter, not Brown coming in for KCP. Period. On the other hand, I kind of like it. for Orlando. Oh, love you. Absolutely. Gives them one of the most dynamic perimeter defensive duos in the league.

Like we got bridges pairing with OG and Nobie earlier this week. Now we have Suggs in KCP, which is pretty sick on an already elite Orlando defense. I can't wait to see that. But as we all know, Orlando's big issue has been on offense that spacing is a goddamn mess. Pretty much every team that's playing them is going to be crowding in the paint. like it's just like a cramped parking lot. And so just to get one 40% three point shooter in the mix there, let's see if Suggs continues his success from three.

Obviously opens up some opportunity. I was a little disappointed that they went the 3&D catch and shoot route as opposed to like a ball handler who could shoot like an Anthony Simons. Take some of the ball handing responsibilities off Apollo Bancaro's plate because of he saw in the playoffs. Like the turnover issues is a thing. And the more you want him as your primary go-to. guy all the time. I think it's a little bit too much for him. But I just think getting any type of

shooting in the mix there is going to pay dividends. And so KCP is one of the best of this brand of player. Yeah, they can use ball handling, but Paulo's creation is going to look better in this context with a shooter like KCP. And so that's what it is. It's create space and bet on Palo and Franz to carry you in terms of your creation. I think we can all disagree to varying extents. like how well that will work next season over the long term, like whatever you think of those guys is ultimately what you think of a move like this. But KCP makes their lives easier, you know, just plugging him into that lineup.

Defensively, he's going to be awesome with Suggs. There's also something kind of funny about KCP coming in to replace Gary Harris yet again. It's crazy. Just the shadow behind him, like the slightly better, more realized version of yourself, just lurking behind you at all times. And we should say for Denver, this could be another case where a team replaces KCP with

Russell Westbrook. So everyone is just kind of chasing, chasing ghosts out here. Yeah. They were so hungry for the Gary Harris minutes in the playoffs. Like when he went down, they were missing him. And Gary Harris, another guy who I really like, really hard-nosed guy, there's been times in his career where he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And KCP is just a way more consistent, proven knockdown shooter.

And, you know, over the years he's evolved into a movement shooter type of guy, you know, run them off for all kinds of screens. Like, their offense can get so much more fun. And, you know, he's a great locker room presence, like, well liked by every single one of his teammates, every single place that he's been. And so, yeah, this is just an obvious upgrade for the magic. This is just really cool to see a young team, you know, obviously they're going to have the internal development. The young guys will get better. but actually getting guys that will make their jobs easier and more defined is just an awesome thing to see because it rarely happens, honestly. Is it too much to say that like this one decision might change the outlook in the West next year?

No. I don't think that's too much at all. Because there's like, you look at the competition, everybody else is loading up. Like the wolves made a fairly bold decision to go out and get Rob Dillingham in the draft last week, giving up future pitch. in order to just bring in a rookie and hope that he solves one of the issues that came about in the playoffs. After we talked ad nauseum about how that team might need to break things up in order to deal with their money problems, you've got to give the wolves a lot of credit for that. Obviously, OK, C is still out there having meetings in Eugene, Oregon with Isaiah Hartenstein repeatedly

or maybe bringing him on, obviously Caruso. And so like, the West is only getting better and it just seems like Denver isn't keeping pace. And like, I'm worried. Like on top of all of my previous skepticism and whatnot. I'm just worried that they can even reclaim what they had last season. Yeah, our colleague at the ringer, Zach Cram, brought up a great point about this, which is, where is Denver spacing going to come from?

Because now they're losing KCP. They already traded away Reggie Jackson, who's an important shooter for them. Christian Brown, good player, we like him, as stated, very reluctant shooter at bare minimum. And this was a team that was already 30th in the league in three-point attempts. So you want to add Russell Westbrook?

a player who might have the biggest, like, negative spacing impact of anyone in the league to that mix? That could be a really big problem if that's their solution to this ultimately. How many times have we seen games come down to Nicola Yokic backing someone down in the post? Aaron Gordon makes that timely ass cut and he just hits him because teams can't overload on Gordon because KCP Murray are out there on the perimeter providing the spacing. If you're not going to have someone out there to do so, that whole ballet becomes so much more complicated and a little easier to garden. I almost wonder if it just gunks up like what was their best option out there.

Yeah. Maybe Calvin Booth has learned some truth about shooting that we don't know, guys. Julian Strother, just waiting. Strother's going to have to play big. Peyton's going to have to play big. Christian Brown's going to have to be the best version of him far and away relative to what we've seen so far. because otherwise the nuggets are kind of stuck.

Like they don't have a lot of avenues to improve to actually add meaningful talent. They can add some around the edges. Like they're going to have some of those avenues available to them. But this gets into the whole second apron thing where I wonder if, you know, general managers like coaches have a bit of a control thing happening here where you will see coaches pull players out of the game

from foul trouble because they're so worried about the idea that they're not going to foul out of the game that effectively they limit their minutes by doing it. And right now, teams like the Nuggets are so scared of the second apron, they're compromising their rosters because they're so worried about the second apron compromising their roster. So what are you chasing here? I get all the limitations. And at some point, we should run through them because they are many.

If you do go over the second apron, it effectively locks you into the team that you have. But the team the Nuggets had was pretty good. And maybe if a couple balls bounce a couple different ways, maybe they were in the finals. And it must be said, when they got KCP, there was a lot of people who, who soured on the deal. A lot of people was like, how could you get rid of Will the Thrill? Like, that was out there.

A lot of people felt that way. And maybe they feel like they can make a deal that's on the margin, similar to what they did to get KCP in there, similar to what they did to get Bruce Brown in there. And maybe they feel like they could find somebody that will beautifully fit into what they're doing and they could do it on the cheap.

They're so smart at identifying talent. I don't believe that to be the case, but maybe that's the case that they're making, to themselves internally. Yeah, it's kind of actually a bummer. This is where I would give almost Denver a little bit of credit with the CBA stuff, because, like, the clippers kind of forced their way into this mess by spending, like,

drunken sailors to the point where, like, the CBA in a lot of regards is, like, built to break down the clippers, you know, like to make sure that Steve Balmer doesn't just outspend the 29 other owners. And so to a certain extent, I think it's probably, uh, it's almost apropos that the clippers or one of the first teams running scared from it. Denver kind of built methodically in the way that I think a lot of teams would traditionally do so, where they stack like right draft picks,

turn a lot of those draft picks into higher level guys, built this incredible starting five, and here we are with the title condition. I definitely think they deserve to be dinged for not paying the price once we get there, but the price is different. And so in a lot of ways, I almost wonder if they were suboptimally timed

in a way where they just happened to have the door closed on them when the CBA happened. Like it's kind of a case of bad time including just being a little overly prudent. It is my thing. This freaking second apron shit was completely pushed by the owners. It's their invention.

Like completely. Like it's not even like, oh, we don't want bombers spending his own money to make the clippers lose in the second round. It's owners being like, we have a built-in excuse to spend less on the team. Fans can't be like,

oh, you're being cheap, Joe Lakeup. How could you not? Bring this, how could you not bring, you know, Gary Payton back, whatever it takes, blah, blah, blah. I don't care what the luxury tax implications are. Joe Lakeb is happy the second apron exists because now it's completely off the table. And the media has done such a great job of being like, oh, the second apron. We can't do the second apron. It's scary, blah, blah, blah.

And so, like, I don't know, man. Whenever the owners do this kind of crap where they just invent ways for them to artificially depress, the amount of money that they're going to spend on the team. You know, I can't feel bad for the Nuggets. Their ownership group loving this. I don't feel bad for ownership. I feel bad for Nicola Yokic. I feel bad for Jamal Murray.

The players on the Nuggets who you just lost a really critical teammate because of this ownership invention, not just the Nuggets, but across the league, as you're saying. And you're right about owners like Joe Laker being thrilled ultimately about this outcome. He sketched out that one of the Warriors' biggest goals for this offseason was to get under the tax, to dodge the repeater. talking about how how vital that was to the broader ecosystem of what the Warriors are trying to build. They do want this excuse, ultimately. They do want hard caps and hard limits. And they've created finally, after many attempts through various CBAs, a pretty damn restrictive box to put themselves

in. But let's make no mistake. They designed the box. Well, since we're talking around the Warriors, maybe we should kind of tap into what's going on there. Because yes, they're yet another team that is shedding salary like the boat is just like hold up and they need to ditch the water here because they were ostensibly in the Paul George mix sounded like they were one of the primary suitors trying to drive the opt-in to his final year and trade for him scenario. So there's that part. Clearly they see the sense of urgency to pair somebody, God forbid, next to Steph Curry, who's just been toiling with kind of a team that has been suboptimal for at least a year or two now here.

But now they're at a point where they've had to ditch Chris Paul, who they waived in order to not have to pay his $30 million, which was not guaranteed. He has since gone to the San Antonio Spurs, according to, I believe, Chris Haynes. We'll get to that in a bit. But Clay Thompson also not coming back. No press release on that one,

but all signs point to him just not being an option to return here. And so I have to wonder, like, what's going to go on here? Because the options seem limited. Is this just going to be another scenario where it's like, we're going to cut money and figure it out later? Or is there actually a plan in place here? Because I can't figure one out. At the point where they didn't trade Chris Paul, there's not a lot of options available to you. There's not a lot of avenues to add real talent. Now, because they didn't take back salary in a Chris Paul trade, I believe that they can do a clay sign and trade. The problem with that is Clay seems pretty freaking pissed about this whole situation.

And his willingness to accommodate the Warriors may be somewhat limited at this point in time where for Clay's outlook, I think we're leaning much more towards one of our most anticipated outcomes despite signing. Will he and would he go to say a Western Conference rival or say the Philadelphia 76ers, you know, maybe one of the best contenders he can sign with for a relatively small price just because he can. Just because he got cut loose and he wants to stick it to the Warriors

who refuse to not only bring him back but make him a priority in their off-season plans. Yeah, it's just looking like somebody brought this up to me today. This is feeling like Ray Allen leaving the Celtics again. A little bit.

So who is the Miami Heat to the Warriors Boston Celtics? I'm, maybe the Lakers? Yeah. Or the Clippers? Would it be L.A.? He's like the most likely.

option. Yeah. Like, it's like L.A. the, you know, the rivalry between the two cities and, you know, the Lakers actually played them in the playoffs. Moving a boat cross-country, very expensive. You know what to do that. The docking fees, yeah.

Real estate in the South Bay out here is pretty crazy, but I'm sure Clay Thompson could find a way to swing it somehow. But yeah, it just feels like so much acrimony, man, between Clay and the front office. When it comes to Boston, Ray Allen was, he hated the players and the front office for, you know,

secretly trying to trade him the season before and stuff like that. But with this Clay stuff, it seems like it's just, you know, his problems with management and him feeling old. Yeah. As being such a main cog of the greatest glory in the history of that front, like by a million. And so, yeah, I'm really interested to see what he does, in terms of where he decides to take his talents to.

Give Draymond some time. I think the spite will build, if only just like if they go up against each other once. But I don't, again, I don't blame the Warriors for wanting to turn the page because it's funny that Clay is getting so much heat as an option for so many different contenders, frankly, because he really wasn't very good last year. I thought he was much more of a better fit for a younger team that could leverage,

like, some of his institutional knowledge and, like, his, like, ability to build up a team's culture, but it seems like he's more destined for a team like Dallas has also been talked about the two LA teams are also reportedly in the mix there as Sixers, as Rob referred to. But just the way that this ended was way uglier than I ever expected. I thought it was just going to be mutual parting of ways. He would go find a team. And it seemed like they closed the door and he kept trying to make sure that they had closed it. And they're like, no, no, no, we're not going to bring you at all to the point where we are now where it's like there's no, there's no, point, there's no like sign that he's going to come back.

Like, no. The option has ended. I do think they were willing to bring him back. It was just he was at the very bottom, or at least towards the bottom of their priority list. That's not how you treat a guy like Clay Thompson. And clearly he is taking it quite personally. I think he's well within his right to do it. All of those teams are and should be in the running.

Frankly, like he is a guy who if he wants to could look at a wide range of teams for kind of mid-level type money and find his way there. Denver could be an option. and reportedly had some interest there. You could see him kind of plugging into that KCP spot in some ways, not defensively, but given what he can be as a shooter, I agree with you that he would have been an awesome guy to have on a team like The Magic or a young up-and-coming team

that was already competitive. He would also be pretty dope to have as a fourth or fifth option. And that was what went wrong in Golden State is, regardless of where you put him in the pecking order of overall best player for the Warriors, he had to operate as their second best score. and he's just not really capable of doing that anymore. Yeah. What is a fair market contract for Clay Thompson to you guys?

Is it just the mid-level, $12.5 million? He could easily get paid more than that. Like, I think more would be fine. You know, we're seeing players like Pat Williams get paid a lot more than that. So I have a hard time saying that Clay isn't worth it. But I think it's more about opportunity. Yes. Like, if you want more than that, you're probably going to the Detroit Pistons.

There's a few teams that have the cap space to do so. So if you really want to be competitive, you're resigned to teams with the non-taxpayer mid-level, which is what, 12.9? Yes. Yeah, 12.8 million, which is not nothing. And you can sign it on a short-term basis so that you can get in and out of this thing relatively quickly. Do we see a pathway for the Warriors to land some sort of star next to Steph Curry? Like we're running out of options here where it's like Brandon Ingram,

whom I think we all don't really like. Let's just be honest about it. It's starting to look good for a variety of teams, if only because the music has stopped. And it's just like, how do we get an upgrade in here immediately for these teams that need an upgrade right now? And it's like, maybe it's B-I.

If that move was there for the Warriors, it was dependent on having Chris Paul's salary to make it happen, right? And I say, Higgins, you could do some constructions around Andrew Wiggins. Or if you want a star to fill out the Golden State Warriors roster or to compliment or turn the page, Chris Haynes reported that one was apparently on the table

to get Zach Levine from the Bulls and the core of that deal would have just been Wiggins and Chris Paul. And the Warriors, Haynes reported, said, no, thank you. We are not interested in that. That's bleak. That's fucking bleak. Is Zach Levine that toxic?

Zach Levine is, we've all expressed concerns about his injuries, about who he can be as a player, about his lacking defense at times. That dude is so much better than anyone else the Warriors are going to get this summer

with what they have. Andrew Wiggins? What? But again, I think, again, I think the warriors are, it feels like they're on this more financially sort of prudent track. And that's probably, let's face it, it's probably just a money thing. It's not a talent thing. It's not like, let's be as talented as we can be next year.

Let's be as talented as we can be in Steph's Twilight, like the greatest player in our franchise is history. I don't think they're interested in doing that financially, which is just tough. So the Golden State Warriors, socially liberal, fiscally conservative. That's where we're putting them? Sure. Why not? Well, since we're talking about Clay, let's talk about the Lakers, one of the potential suitors, probably, I would say, the highest odds of landing it, just considering the history with his dad,

still calling games, I believe, for ESB in L.A. Radio, which would be a nice little story to get him back. I think in order to do so, LeBron James would have to take less on his contract, which is the first time he's done that since he went to the heat. I believe he's made a point to only max out all of his deals, if not in money, then he took less in terms of the years there. I did appreciate his list of players that he was maybe considering, according to Dave McMinneman, which was Clay Thompson, James Harden and Yonis Valanchunas, who I don't know who we've made.

Shout out to Yonis. Let's go. To get on that list. Yeah, that was a big one. It's kind of like how people were saying the magic eating a meeting with Paul George really like solidified them.

Jonas getting on the list really just up to his marketability perhaps. But yeah, I think it would help the Lakers, obviously, if they can get another good player in the door here. But all of a sudden, like the Lakers, kind of have options in a way that I'm like, kind of like, huh, this is more intriguing than I thought for this Lakers off season.

What are the options? Yeah. What options do you mean? Yeah. I think, so I think this mid-level contract, obviously just getting another helpful player in the door, someone who could shoot threes would be gangbusters, obviously. This is the question, though, is if, if LeBron's list of impact players is effectively now Clay Thompson, because James Harden assigned Jonas Valchunis, despite the flattery, is now a Washington wizard, we have learned. So would would LeBron be willing to take the pay cut? And he's already opted out of his deal. So he's expressed publicly projected a certain willingness to take the pay cut. But I'm sure there are strings attached.

If it's for Clay, that's one thing. If it's for DeAnthony Melton, Markell Fultz. It's not like Najee Marshall is he's going to pass up money. No, no. And so how long is the list? I think we all agree Clay is someone who makes sense to be on that list by reputation and play and is a very very important. veteran guy who could fit with that team.

But is there anyone else even available at this point who also fits the criteria? Yeah, I think if you get Clay, obviously that would be huge because you're right. The drop off is significant. I'm kind of like penciling him in there because I think it just makes too much sense. But we'll see. I think that actually the more interesting scenario is if they get someone what the mid-level was. But then they swing a trade on top of that because quietly a lot of the player options that they

had on the books opted back in, which first of all, hilarious that they had so many player options for bad players who could not get deals outside of that. So they opted into Jackson Hayes, for instance, coming back for like two million. DeAngelo Russell obviously in a different tier. That's an option they gave him, $18.7 million for DeAngelo Russell. He has opted in. Might be kind of a thorn in their side if they're looking to actually improve the roster. Although, if you're playing devil's advocate, these are now all expiring contracts.

So it could just be aggregate salary to then dump on somebody. I don't know about Zach Levine, but somebody. So if you give me Clay plus a trade, now you have my attention. If it's just Clay, we'll see. What do you think while? Yeah, I wonder what the trade could be because the reporting out of there seems to be that, like, they're not interested in trading their future first anymore in ways that we thought they were back when they were in, you know, like 20 different sweepstakes.

allegedly. And so I wonder what type of trade you could even swing, right? Like, it's got to be for a guy who teams feel like are vastly overpaid and have a lot of years left so that you can, you know, basically unload these expirings on them. I don't know. I don't know who that guy is besides Zach Levine, who, again, we have to mention this because if you read the local reports out of Chicago, like the Bulls have tried everything to get this guy out the door and nobody's biting. I wonder who is a similarly sort of, you know, guy that people have soured on that the Lakers could go out and say, you know what? We're going to put him next to Bron and A.D. Who cares

that he has three, four years left on a bad deal? And we're just going to keep it going. It feels like the Lakers are just kind of destined to be one of these good Western Conference teams. But I don't really see the path for them to get on the level of the actual contenders. So regardless of how much they kind of nudge around here and whether they get clay or not, they're kind of aiming for the sixth seed. Can you get to six or five in the standings? They're praying and not being the playing for once. That would be a great outcome for them if they can lock in a playoff spot.

Everything else, I think there's kind of hedging around. They're negotiable. It's best case, worst case, depending on, you know, LeBron and AD were largely healthy last season. That probably matters more than anyone they get at this point. But every little bit goes a long way. And if you can get someone meaningful for the mid-level because LeBron allows you to do it, you should absolutely chase that,

whether it's Clay Thompson or not. Is this the every second counts approach to NBA free agency? They do all count, it turns out. But look, if you try to put Dill in one more dish, Justin, so help me. You don't want to hear my thoughts about the new season in the bear. Let me tell you. The names that you hear in connection to the Lakers via trade are more like 3 and D four types.

It's like Dorian Finney Smith, Cam Johnson, Jeremy Grant, those type of guys. And on the one hand, you might be like, oh, there's another marginal upgrade. But I do think the overall theory of, let's just put enough guys around AD and LeBron and just give LeBron a chance is probably their best route. I mean, if they had run into, for instance, OKC in the first round,

as opposed to Denver this past postseason, maybe they make another round or two. And honestly, I think that's their best bet. You just kind of bet that, like, LeBron can carry us to a certain extent and see what the best you could do from there. And I don't think that's the worst. outcome for most franchises, frankly.

Also, they got this really sick developmental project in Brony James happening, so they have that to be excited about as well. Their timeline is now 2028, where it's just connect, Reeves, and Brony James. This is the real two timelines. The Lakers are light years ahead at this point. That's right. All right.

Now for part two of this free agency Bonanza edition, we are pivoting now to some of the big ripple effects from the NBA draft. And to do so, we bring the foremost expert in draft minutia, just the phone systems of Florida businesses, as he was telling us before we jumped on here. And many other things. Hi, Kyle, man. Hey, how's it going? Usually I get disparaged.

Initially, I get disparaged or insulted or, like, guilted in some way. So I'm waiting for that to happen. But I'm happy to be here. take the praise. You know, I'm kind of, I'm in the defensive. I'm like, what comes next. Usually, very kind of gets me with a dagger between the ribs. But I'm happy to be here. I'll accept your praise. I love you guys. And let's hope I can help you. Clean some line on something, Justin. I don't think we've ever said a bad word about Kyle. I don't know where all this is coming from,

personally. But, you know, you invite a guy in? I think it was indie. I think Justin kept guilting me when we were in Indy and I was like, this, this dude. And he hasn't thought about it since, clearly. But maybe we could get through some of those unresolved issues here. But no, I feel like some of these teams from the draft have had some pretty interesting after effects, like going into free agency as we saw. I mean, probably the one deal that we didn't talk about in our first segment, which is probably relevant to this conversation and beyond that, is just the spurs who go after picking Stiff, Stefan Castle, our guy from Yukon, and then they pick up Chris Paul here in Free Agency. What do you think about just that mix? Like, do you think these two guys can coexist,

Kyle? Do you think like there's much more of like a passing up the torch thing going on here that Castle needs? But what do you think in terms of phase two for Wembe? Well, you said our guy and he's, you know, I like him. But I mean, he's like your guy since you're the Yukon obsessive. Right, right. Castle just kind of fits everywhere. I think especially if you have like a handling five, I think you can probably get away a little bit more with. Granted, they have other things to do. Castle makes the most sense is I think he's going to be a tough assignment defender.

He's very switchable. He showed a lot of interest in being like having off ball motor, which I think is an admirable thing for any basketball player these days. So, I mean, he played in a system that was sort of a high post cutting and screening thing. And I think he's going to fit. it really well. I think it poses some questions about, it poses, it creates some dissonance, I think, between him and between Kelden and between Sohan, because, you know, as much as San Antonio was willing to pass and move the ball last year, the spirit was willing, but the flesh was

very weak at times. They just arguably had multiple, several, mostly non-MBA players at different times on the court. So it poses a question for me of just kind of like, what are they going to do next? There are other teams that this is true of as well. But so a guy like Sohan just creates, you know, Kelton's not exactly a knockdown shooter either. I mean, he's got better, but it just creates sort of like future questions for me. If you like Castle that much, maybe he's a cheaper version and you can kind of have flexibility to make moves for things you do need because I do think that Kelden and Sohan and Vassel have shown enough to have interest. from other teams.

But that's kind of where I'm thinking with that pig so far. And it makes sense, too, when you put Chris Paul in that formula, right? If you have a point guard who is organizing everything, now you get to mix and match

the wings and say, okay, do we want more of a switchable designated defender? Do we want more of a facilitator like Sohan? Do you want the sort of slasher and driver that Kelden Johnson is? Or the kind of pick and roll

catch and shoot guy like Devon Vassell. You have the full complement a variety of wings at your disposal now. And you have a point guard who can actually make sense of them for the first time in the Wembe era.

So I think that honestly goes a long way. I'm wondering what you guys think about the idea that the Spurs would trade out of that eighth pick and, you know, get basically two future first out to like 2030 and 2031 or whatever. Because, you know, obviously there was a lot of chatter about, oh, they need to get talent in. They need to be in a win now situation. And trading for picks that are seven years away is the opposite of that when you have the

opportunity to add talent. to your team. I'm just wondering, because to my mind, the Spurs front office haven't done anything cool besides draft Wemby, number one, in years. So I just wonder what that says about what they're trying to do with the team. Yeah, I mean, the Chris Paul signing, if anything, as much as it fits, like, what you want around Wembe is just kind of hitting the pause on any sort of meaningful progress, right? It's just a suggestion that they're going to take this thing painfully slow. And so as like a fan of Wembe and wanting to see him compete on the highest level, this kind of really hurts my heart to a large degree as much as like, I do think Paul will probably help them

in small, meaningful ways. But that just means like they're probably not going to compete on a high level next year. Is it painfully slow? Chris Paul's a veteran guy. It's not like they brought in a 19 year old to run point. He's going to play 35 games. Come on. 35 games? What was the number again? Was it 11? 11 for how many years was the deal? What was the, what were the numbers on that? I don't have it from me. I actually didn't see the terms yet. Yeah. Okay. Well, it just made me, it's too much. It just made me one. I mean, there are obvious positives of bringing in Chris Paul. I mean, he is sort of the pick and roll like guru. I think he kind of did that as much as the relationship between him and DeAndre Aiton was just him

shouting at DeAndre Aiton. I don't think that's going to be the case with Wimby. I think that, like, it's a nice just sort of nice little sort of tutorial for him for this year. He is a good, he's brilliant basketball player. He works with, you just hear countless stories of young guards.

I'll be surprised sometimes about like players that he's worked with. I'm like, oh, I didn't even know he was connected to that person. I mean, it'll be good on that front. It makes me wonder,

are they going to, are they done is the question. Are we positive that like, that CP is the end of that line of thinking because on paper like was was saying why not dealing him you know because everything that i heard about dealing him you know other than the stuff people are have been weird about like the donda academy stuff everything connected to that it seems like he's had some weird situations with like who's around him you hear you hear that shit every single year year in and year out with with

prospects and it's hard to know or even speak on it authority with any authority or or confidence but i just think that it was weird for me because Dillingham is such an ultra-talent. Maybe Minnesota was just in a better, I guess I'm shifting to Dillingham a little bit here, but it was in a better situation to sort of protect him defensively or, you know, their team was more ready to sort of put him in a good position, whereas in San Antonio, you just throw Dillingham out there, it's going to be a lot messier in the short term because as talented and brilliant as he was, people haven't mentioned the fact that, I mean, he would disappear for long stretches. He was, even at the college level, a huge defensive target a lot of the time.

So I don't know, but circling all the way back, it just makes me wonder if they're done. Do you guys think that they're done in terms of like making a move or adding another, you know, adding more point card talent? Maybe for now. But yeah, this is why I would almost say why not both? Like I would have loved a universe where they have Paul and Dillingham together. And Chris Paul's teaching him as much as helping the rest of the team along.

And that way you don't have to worry about CP being an older player who's only going to play however many games he plays or however many minutes he plays. there's a larger project at work versus now, you know, you have CP for however much you have him and however long you have him, but otherwise you have more or less at present the same core plus Defon Castle.

So we know that team isn't good enough, even with another year of development. They do need to make meaningful additions. I just don't know that, to your point, Justin, they've expressed the urgency through this deal to reflect that they are willing to do that just yet. Yeah, and I'd almost split the difference there

where it's like, yeah, the fan in me is a little disappointed, but I almost wonder if long-term this might pay off in a big way because I've been thinking about this. We all talk about maybe short-term like superstar upgrades specifically at the point-card spot for them.

Trey Young, Darius Garland, etc. Everyone's been talking about would they fit with the spurs? And I'm like, if you have Wembe who in his first year has suggested to be one of the best players on the planet already, shouldn't we be thinking bigger than that? Like, shouldn't we be actually targeting

like when Luca Dantzich could be a free agent a couple years from now. Like, we should be thinking on the highest level in terms of our big swing. So a trade like that that's going to potentially return maybe a good pick years down the road opens up that possibility as opposed to some of these more half measure moves which would make them better in the immediate. So I kind of like it from that extent. Look, I'm somebody who has a respect for job security and I'm happy when people have it.

But this is the, you know, this is the sort of downside of having. freaking RC and pop in there as immovable objects because they just feel like they can do whatever the hell they want. They don't have to rush. They don't have to do anything. Nobody's pressuring them to accomplish anything in the near future. So they're taking the tact of, oh, we can be as painstakingly precise as we want or need to be.

And that's the approach they take. I think a different regime in there would be like, look, we have this generational talent. He's put it on the floor. Like he's shown that he's going to be a special guy. Let's, you know, hit the gas on this thing. But when you can't be fired, you don't have to worry about doing things in the immediate that might not be so like, you know, future focused.

But when you are that concerned with the immediate, you go the Dell Demps in New Orleans route and put that kind of like mid-veteran team around Anthony Davis. Or you go the Donnie Nelson route in Dallas and over-invested in veterans when maybe it would have been better to slow. slow play. This is obviously the great philosophical part of having a player like Wembe. Does he push you forward with urgency because he's so good? Or does he buy you time because he's so good?

I kind of err on the side of buying time. And I think if you can afford and he's willing to take one more year at a relatively slow pace of gradual improvement, take the win, you know, take the job security, take the patience if your player will afford you to do that. Well, maybe we should talk about a team that has or needs plenty of time to figure things out. And that's the Atlanta Hawks. That's called a transition, my friends. Kyle, can you serve a very important role here in pronouncing the name of the number one overall pick for us?

Because I can't say I could do it even once every five times, maybe like once every 10, but my shooting percentage is quite low at this point. People, learned men have said this in front of me, and I'm just going to pair it with have said and it's reza shay that's that could be wrong uh but as i have been led to believe it's reza shay and you know you could you know is that zachary i'm not even going to attempt to do it for in jackson you know off i'm not going to make an ass of myself today for once but uh yeah zachary reza shay is is how i've told i've been told to say well now that we have that down uh now that you have that down it's a good distinction um how are we feeling let's let's take the draft

first and then we can get into the big DeJante Murray trade. What did you think about Reese Shay? Come on. It's not that. Reza. It's not that hard. Reza Shay. Come on. Zachary. Reza. I'm not even doing a bit. I really just like to black out there.

It's worse that you're not doing a bit. Justin, that should be your Twitter bio. I'm not even doing a bit. Just to be. No, what do I feel about that? I mean, we've we have kind of had a I'm not going to say a

corporate mindset. But we've all kind of shared a queasiness a little bit. Bill even jumped in and kind of, he zigged and Zach. He had like a serpentine back and forth thing going on. But he ended up feeling skeptical with us. And I think there is some worry about Risa Shea. You know, I was teasing Kevin when he had him number one where I was like, you just in your scouting report wrote, guy doesn't handle it or create for himself. Guy has shaky sample spacing the floor. And I was like, okay are we getting French Zaire Williams I mean what are we getting here like you know if this isn't

somebody but you hear the positives and you dig in and watch a little bit it's like you have to kind of choose your side are you going to be optimistic he had a weird shooting sample that was really concentrated good in one part of this past year the number's good it's like 39% on spot up

and you you kind of have to just go through the eye test it looks good he has a nice touch around the basket he doesn't have a crazy wingspan he's not like somebody that creates dribble separation. He's a good team defender. I think the thing that makes people worry is that he just feels like a supplementary piece with self-creator primary piece being something that's like way, way, way down the line.

I guess the positive, though, is, you know, he's going to fit with whatever you choose to do in the fact that he's supplementary. Like he's not going to have a problem, you know, being off the ball because that's been his existence. So honestly, I don't know how to feel about it. I, I, I, I, I, I, he was not high on my board. I had him, I think at nine is where I ended up having him. Um, but the hawks in that room, they were clapping like they got, you know, like they got Zion or Wimby or 80 or something.

They, they seem, maybe they see something that I don't, but I mean, I definitely have some concern. I guess being supplementary sounds like Trey Young's dream teammate. Well, if you, if you're playing with Trey, you're supplementary. Yeah. That's just kind of, that's the, that's what it is. My definition. Yeah. Yeah.

That probably brings us to the trade then because the guy that they brought in potentially to share with Trey Young is now out the door. We can get into what this means for Trey. But just in terms of the Dejante Murray trade, Rob, I was like pretty struck by the return that Atlanta got. It ended up being two firsts, one from the Lakers next year, and then the least favorable of the bucks and Pelicans in 2027. And then Dyson Daniels, Larry Ness Jr., E.J. Ladell. that seems lower than I was expected for a guy that we spend many a pod talking about going into the trade deadline.

Yes. It made me want to apologize to you, Justin, for perhaps poo-pooing your Lakers trade rumors too strongly for the minimal offer that the Lakers could make in exchange for someone like DeJante Murray because this is not the kind of return that bulls you over. It's not the kind of return that, oh my God, you have to trade Dejante Murray when something like this comes along. And I say that as someone who actually

quite likes Dyson Daniels and thinks he's going to be a really good player for Atlanta in particular. He's a guy who strikes me as having all defensive potential on the perimeter, who is a good facilitator, is still figuring out how to be a finisher, still figuring out, and he's going to have to do that with Trey Young, like how to hit shots more consistently, how to be like a more effective finisher around the basket. But I love the floor game and I love the defense. And that plus two first, plus Larry Nance, who's a good switchable big, maybe that is enough. Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong and too anchored to what the Hawks gave up to get DeJante in the first place or the idea of him as an all-star when in reality he's a very good player he's not an all-star he doesn't solve

anyone's problems per se he can plug holes he can be a good fit for certain kinds of teams i'm not even sure he's a great fit for new orleans that's a whole different conversation but a good enough one and maybe that's the kind of return you get for a good enough player yeah how does dejante murray especially if they don't move on from brandon ingram like when is this guy ever handling the ball on this team between CJ, Zion, these are all on-ball guys. Zion at least, you know, with the right pick and roll operator, he can like finish off of what, you know,

a really good playmaker can do. But that's not the case for these other guys. So I don't know when this guy's supposed to actually touch the ball on the team as presently constructed. But, you know, Griff did say after the season in his exit interviews of media, he was like, this thing is getting changed. It's getting blown up.

And this is a step in that direction. And they're probably going to end up moving Ingram at some point here. I like it if it's the first of one or two other moves. Sure. Like, because if we're looking at this, from my perspective, it's been since the season ended. The team going forward for the Pelicans is Zion plus the two wings. It's Zion, Herb Jones, Trey Murphy. Like, that to me is the core strength of what you are.

And even if you trade Ingram, honestly, CJ, to me, is just pretty fungible. Like, I wouldn't mind moving him to the. the bench and the six-man roll moving off the team eventually only has two more deals and from that perspective i think uh murray makes way more sense because if it's murray and zion then murray's defense isn't all much of a problem where he's like one of the two worst defenders potentially and like his shooting which is come and gone isn't all that important for you if he's like the third or fourth spacer on that team and so like murray jones murphy zion plus big let's say Jared Allen just for the sake of conversation.

Now you have my attention. Okay. I like what you're drawing up there. Can we get Dejante Murray to play defense again? Is that a thing that is within our power to do? Guys, guys tend to not go back after they become, you know, I'm score. I'm getting 23 points a game and I'm getting, you know, all the attention from that. They tend to just be like, all right, defense is done now.

It's over. Yeah, again, that's what Griff said he was going to do. he was going to change the character of the team. And this seems like, again, a step in that direction now to the Hawks. Obviously, we knew they had to break up this combination. It just didn't work. These guys did not play well together, DeJante Murray and Trey Young. I was personally hoping that Trey Young would be the one that gets moved because I think

he just needs a change of scenery. I don't see how the character of who the Hawks are as a basketball team changes. How does that change? I don't, like, is this going to be Trey Young taking a bunch of shots, you know, monopolizing the offense and mediocrity? Like, do you guys see something different coming down to Pike for these guys?

This is, I'd do agree with you. I don't see it changing because this, everything that is going to happen for the Hawks is going to be forced through that Trey filter and that's the way it's always been. I mean, like, that's the way he's always played all the way back. You'd hear stories about him even before college

where it was just like, yeah, Trey's kind of the guy. some guys just don't want to play with. Like that was his reputation. And you get into Oklahoma and it was, I just, I don't know, this has been a consistent thing for him. As much as of an appreciation as I have for his talent, I agree with you. I don't necessarily see it changing. And, you know, I also was with you that, like, I think a change of scenery would have been good for him.

But I don't know. I also don't know that we're ever going to get much of a change out of him stylistically. And I think that's kind of where it all comes from. I think when he came into the league, everybody was like, okay, this is a guy who can kind of move, you know, Steph had just kind of poison people's brains to like every small player who could shoot the ball. They were like, you have a real willingness to play that way. You know, like, speaking to the castle earlier, like, not everybody wants to do it. And I just don't know, I don't know what the right situation even looks like for Tray now. Because that Helio model, I feel like a lot of people have been like, you're going to be a pretty special player to do that.

if you're six feet tall, can you go through the rest of your career like that? I feel like Trey's going to try to find out. I think he will try to find out. I feel like the Hawks are poised to have the 37 Trey Young minutes a game that are very Trey-centric. And then the 11 really kinetic,

ball-moving, super fun league past junkie minutes where you have Bogdan Bogdanovich and Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels. It's a more up-tempo, free-flowing thing. And if those two things together, can be good enough. I mean, the hawks were already a playing team, right?

Maybe they can climb more to at least to the top part of the play in bracket because for as much as we have kind of covered the top of the east in glory earlier on this podcast, the mid to bottom of the east. Not great.

Lots of room. Somehow getting worse. You know, like somehow getting worse and lots of room for if the hawks are just like even a little healthier and a little better, they could just climb by default.

Yeah. Are you guys ready for this? Because I think, I think I'm going to make the case for Tray Young in Atlanta because I almost wonder, like, I think we all have an appreciation for the talent. I know like the personality has been difficult at times there. I almost wonder, like, should they not just try to exhaust this version of the Hawks with Trey Young in there before they give up on it?

If only because it seems like what they're doing is bringing in a lot of more, dare I say, supplementary sort of players who might be better fits for them. then forcing another ball handler next to him like they tried with Murray, where it's like now if you have Risha Shea and Jalen Johnson, you see how I fucking name that on? That's pretty good. That's pretty good. And then even the Dyson Daniels,

who I'm not really sure what he is offensively, but maybe he could play next to Trey in some sort of like defensive destruction sort of lineups, or he could just be a ball handler off the bench and run the second unit because they had such issues with that in the past. Like I almost wonder with like they won't be a great team, but maybe they could be the best possible version of the Trey Young Hawks with what they have now. That's the optimist take.

Well, you're describing to me, and I'm realizing in real time, as we're talking more and more about Dyson Daniels as a real NBA player, that part of the reason I like him so much is he's very tabo cephalotia coded. It's like, can he be the tabo to Russell Westbrook in Young OKC, right? Can we get a dynamic defensive player in that back court that, as we alluded to, Dejante Murray was not really willing to be. even the other guys that they've had in that spot previously, Cam Reddish, DeAndre Hunter has his moments defensively,

but is more of a big wing than a true like perimeter stopper. I just think that combination has proven to be pretty effective historically, like really dynamic playmaking guard, plus a very switchable, flexible defender right next to them if Daniels is the presumptive starter there. That's just a formula I think works pretty well, even if Deist and Daniels doesn't shoot it any better than he has. I'm not saying that they're going to be great in that setup.

They won't. And if anything, they might be. Okay, good. Better. No, it will happen. They'll actually exceed expectations because the east is so soft after the top four or five and they'll make the sixth seed and they'll be like, now we're going. We're going to just build around this and it'll actually build a false sense of security.

So strap in Atlanta. But I would at least give it half a season just to like met out that possibility. It's only because you've already invested. You fucking trade Luca Donchage for Troy Young. You might as well play a half season with fucking Risha Shea and Jalen Johnson. You had it and then you lost Reza Shea. It's tough. It's really tough. Like I do think that they, they definitely, I worry about them spatially.

Like they now have, you know, Jalen has kind of become a passable shooter. You know, a Kongwu, not a spacer. You know, Reza Shea, a little shaky like I was saying, Dyson Daniels, you know, at Summer League last year was practicing his shooting. I remember writing about that. And it was just like, oh my goodness. But defensively. defensively they are going to be a little more switchy you know a little more interconnectivity length size um that on that front i do think they improved but this offensively is a little bit

weirder because it doesn't fit the like okay you know spot i mean they punted a j away um i'm sure there's a lot more to that with the hell stuff going on with him his value was like shocking i couldn't believe that but um yeah defensively i do think that they're going to be a lot better in that sense watch watch that not be the case but i like i like like the personnel defensively. When one of the offseason changes with them to potentially watch, there's been a lot of Clint Capella trade chatter out there. And now that they have Larry Nance in particular,

who the one big on their team who actually can step out and hit a three now and again, maybe he is kind of the plug and play solution for some of those spacing issues in spots. And maybe Capella ultimately becomes a casualty of that. Yeah, I just like the idea that we're finally saying, all right, Akangu was the guy at center. Jalen Johnson is the fourth. So that's settled. And then, you know, like all the other wings that they've had come in and out of there.

And it's just been, you know, basically like a conga line of different wings. Maybe, you know, that'll be. Congol line. I knew it. I knew we were going there. Jesus Christ. You thought about it, too. I thought that I passed. Discretion is the better part of valor, my friend.

I have Trey Young's shot selection, unfortunately. I was just interested in the choice of the choice of the. choice. I was like assembly line or I was just imagining these wings dancing together. The quads was imagining them dancing out. I mean, it works. That's, yeah. Well, maybe they're dancing out because the herder was ready to dance out of there because he didn't want to play there anymore. But yeah. I think the dance point, though, is a good one because I actually thought the pelicans were at their best when Nance was at center. Pelicans quietly don't have a center outside of this kid from, what was it, Baylor,

that they drafted, Messi. So they have to figure a lot out there, but Missy. Thank you. God, so much to learn here. But yeah, maybe he could help out with what could be a cramped offense. Why don't we transition to Detroit now? Because they have a lot of strong American names that are easier to say. Ron Holland. What do we think about him? Number five.

When you said Detroit, I felt like I was at Rainforest Cafe in like the thunderstorm. You know how they had like this. Like, I just felt like storm clouds came in. Maybe we can animate that. I don't know. Man, this team is just like spatially, just sort of like, torturous to watch. I remember because when we were writing it,

when we were doing the rookie stuff last year, I had to write, I had to write about them. Like, I ended up watching a lot of Pistons games. If Pistons fans will agree with me, they had to watch because they root for them. Spacially, it's a weird situation, obviously, because I think, and I think it all ripples out

from the struggles of your primary option. I think the details weren't nailed down this they clearly believe in kade to me if you do believe in kade you need to kind of just kind of look at minnesota had this problem for a while where they were like we believe in cat but they just kept repeatedly making decisions that made me think they didn't know who cat was uh and like having watched him here and kind of he's anyway but kade like he's not like a super efficient dribble pull-up shooter he hasn't been he's been a weird finisher at times he's been weird in the mid range basically saying all that to say it's like he's not a heavy lift or primary pick and roll heavy rep guy like

that. So you want to take as much pressure off of him as he can. So how do you do that? Oh, you go draft Jayne Ivy's shaky pull-up shooter. You go draft, Saar Thompson. You go and draft Jalen Duren and you just keep like, the walls are just closing in on Cade with these things that he's struggling with. And then you're thinking, all right, here we go, Trayson Langdon, brand new day. Let's turn it around. Let's draft. Don't connect or something. Whatever the hell. And they take Ron Holland, who's an upside swing. But, you know, you watch him shoot and it's, it's yakety sacks, man. Like, it's a long way away. Now, I know they got Fred Vinson, but like, do we have to give Fred, like, miracle cases? Like, I'm not saying it's like that outrageous, but like, just because we have him doesn't mean

we need to pick total non-shooters. I just think there's incredible dissonance between Holland and Duren and Asar. Asar, you remember this stat, Justin? Asar, I think, set like the second lowest three-point percentage since, like, the NBA had been tracking it on their main site. It's bad. So I'm just like, But I love him as a player, but you got it. It's conditional. So you just keep taking these conditional pieces. I know I'm ranting now, but it just hurts to watch their personnel. To me, hopefully it forecasts more moves.

Something, they got to make more moves. And these guys are young, so you hate to pun them so young. But their team is just a big time work in progress is kind of where I am with the Pistons. It's weird that we're starting over already again. It's cool because they got Tim Hardaway Jr. So all the spacing issues will be resolved. Somebody will be out there taking threes, I can assure you. But also what concerns me, one of our favorites from the late season Pistons, Simone

Fontechio, not nailed down as of yet. He was a nice piece for them, one of the only guys on their team who could actually shoot. How do they keep walking into this particular rake over and over and over? And I think the Pistons have gotten unfairly characterized or slammed for, oh, they signed so many centers that one off season. Oh, they sign these similar types of players. But this time they've really done it. And they just keep acquiring young players who cannot shoot

and piling them up in and around, with and around Cade Cunningham in a way that, yes, the Pistons have now invested in Cade Cunningham's future even more with a reported max extension today. But what are you going to do over the life of that extension that's materially different than what you're doing now? Because it cannot all be the developmental progress of these guys. You have to make changes to the players

in the roster you actually have in front. of you. They just traded Quentin Grimes. One of the guys just saying that they could use in order to get Tim Hardaway. And now I'll say this, they're the exact type of team who could use a bucket getter, like just off the bench professional score because they need to score points. Because as we've outlined here pretty exhaustively, they don't have enough guys who could do so. So Hardaway has more of a utility with this roster than he ever had with Dallas. But like, Grimes is

the exact type of 3 and D sort of guy. they would hope to put next to Cade Cunningham. So, Waz, what's going on here? Because they don't have Monty Williams anymore. J.B. Bickerstaff is now in there. Like, do you hope that, like, maybe he could have more in effect coaching those guys up than what happened last year, which was not much?

I think it's the Vincent thing. I think they really do have the confidence because of what he did for a guy's like a guy like Herb Jones's jump shot. Yeah. They feel like he can take them into competent shooting. However, those dudes, like Holland, if you read the scouting reports on them, I've watched a decent amount of YouTube videos on them, you know, listen to Kyle. You grind the tape.

Yeah, I didn't grind his actual tape. I ground a podcast. Yeah, we're just going to Kyle Mann tape, getting his takes in our ears. I could say positive things too in a minute if you want. I decide the roster is the main part of it. No, but here's a thing, no. Here's a thing. When you hear the best case scenario for him, it's like he's a guy who can get to the

bucket at will, which is the same thing we said about Jaden Ivy. It's literally the, and then Assar Thompson, it's like, yo, they're trying to occupy the exact same space on the floor, and they're trying to do it with the ball in their hand. So it's just a weird, it's just a weird way about going about roster construction. I get it. If you think Ron Holland has the ability to be, you know, some all-star level wing one day, I understand it's the most premium position. But at a certain point, man, you can't just keep doing this, right? Like, I don't, I don't get it. Well, I guess if you were to play devil's advocate, Kyle here, like, it is a new regime. So perhaps we're, like, caught in the middle of one guy bringing in guys that he likes and

mushering out other guys that he didn't pick. And so is there a pathway here where it's like some of the guys that we're all expecting to pile on top of each other for playing time aren't going to actually fit? And maybe like a sar will stick and all of a sudden we won't have to deal with some of the other non-shooters here. Does Holland, I guess, fit next to Cade is probably the biggest question. Yeah, I think in a two-man situation, yes, he does. When I talk about Holland, I don't want to, you know, I did have worries about him as a prospect. I mentioned on all of our different shows about like kind of the archetype that he is. But he, he did, to speak to his positives. He is big. He is very twitchy. He's very flexible. He moves incredibly well for

his size. He loves to play defense. He loves to dig in there and guard. He's got a a little bit of that like he's so confident that you're like see what you know he's like he's very very very sure of himself in a way that that makes you think that he's he's going to be confident and ready to attack people from day one but the probably yeah it's just the shooting like he's going to get to the rim he can pass the ball um but at the end of the day you know if if you're detroit i'm sure there are enough like ivy believers out there if at some point they wanted to move that one um obviously durin i'm sure they're going to hold on to him beef stew not so sure. But the good news is I think these pieces in a different setting, I think there are

enough believers out there that if they did want to move them or if they did want to make some tough choices, it's just all of them together. You want to play your best players together. You know, that's kind of what I've been led to believe in basketball over the years. And then they've put themselves in a situation where that's going to be hard to do. Well, this is the crux of the best talent available versus fit, like fake debate about the draft every year. If they thought that Ron Holland was the best player at that pick,

Jaden Ivy should not prevent you from taking him, ultimately. Nothing here should be nailed down. Frankly, Kate included. Kate is the best thing Detroit has going, but if there were a better star available, if there were a better fit available, I think they should jump at that too.

They need to be incredibly open-minded and not precious whatsoever about any of these guys. And that's where it gets hard, theoretically, as we've talked about before, with the players you draft, but hopefully with kind of a regime change, you can wash away some of those like attachments as well.

And some of the things you've been clinging on to because this is a team that hasn't been in the playoffs in five years. That from the time they drafted Cade has only gotten worse year over year. And so a lot has to change, starting with the supporting cast. But, you know, we'll see what Cade's ultimate future is. I think he's a really good and talented playmaker, but Kyle already laid out. If the pull-up jumper never comes along,

he can't be your lead in the way that you might want him to be. And that creates a whole different conversation about what the value of a player, like that to your franchise can be. Yeah, and that's kind of why I appreciated Portland's perspective on the draft, because there's a lot of questions about what Portland has done over the past two years that I think you could levy. But Cronin was pretty up front where he's like, oh, yes, drafting Clinging gives us another

center, and we already have two of those, but we're not good, so we really don't have to worry about fit. And I appreciate that sort of approach to everything. I, of course, love the pick of Clingon. Of course. And between him and Dennyabdi, I feel like White Boy Summer is just taken off already. Kyle, were you a fan of that one? I know that there's going to be a, knowing DeAndre Aiton, what we know about him, this fall,

you know there's going to be a situation where Klingin is in the locker room and we'll get that shot over Klingin's shoulder where he slams his locker and Aiton is just standing there. You know what I mean? Like he's revealed by the slam. He's like, hey, there, Rook. And he'll say something like, he's something. like he's some experienced veteran in a position to preach to him.

Anyway, we were talking about this before I came on. Scoot and Shaden have similar issues. One is more willing to tackle them, I think, at this point than the other, in terms of just going by the way they play. Scoot wants to be a facilitator point guard. He's been really tackling that in the past couple years. This year was bumpy because of injuries because of just their team being weird. I think a lot of his weaknesses

in terms of just seeing the flow of the game, getting off the ball at the right time, having any kind of efficient offense. There's a laundry list of them. And then there's Shaden, who just sort of wants to be this score first entity who has a whole playmaking world to discover at some point. I think the moves that they made

make a lot of sense on that front. I don't even really think about Aiton when I think about their future. I know that's cruel, but like, I just think about clinging, same system the castle played in. Something that was underrated about Klingin is he played away from the basket.

And that was like a processing, demanding offense that they ran. They challenged teams to think. And the ball was moving. And Klingin very smartly picked his spots on that team. He would duck in at moments during their offense where it was like he would just put teams in bad positions.

He wasn't a guy who just parked himself down there. And he can pass it a little bit. So you think about that supporting scoot and Shaden. And then you think about Denny, who has, like, really come along and develop to is sort of like a third, you know, he's like a spot up second side guy who's going to give you some extra playmaking. And hopefully those two things together will take some pressure off of Shaden and Scoot if you're going to build around them. Maybe you mentioned Simons. And on that front, I think those two guys really fit a vision. And I'm assuming what that vision is, but I suspect that's what it is.

Yes. What makes Portland so hard to, like, wrap your arms around is they do feel like a bunch of role players in search of a star in a lot. of ways. They're waiting for someone like Shaden or someone like scoot to really, really pop. And then all of a sudden, all these guys make a ton more sense. In the interim, it doesn't hurt to amass as many of them as you possibly can, especially if Anthony Simons is ultimately not that long for Portland. A guard who can shoot the way he does would be attractive to all kinds of contenders and kind of want to be contenders alike. I think you could find a market for him if you wanted to move in that direction. But doing so is a bit of a step back. And that's where Portland is kind of

caught in the middle. They're invested in these guys' development, but also they don't want to be completely tearing it down over and over and over again. And so how do you kind of orient your whole organization, right? Do you want to be unloading the DeAndre Aitens and the Rob Williams is when they're the most veteran players that you have for better or worse? And do you want to be putting even more on the youngest members of your organization as effective and talented as they may be? Yeah, to Justin's point, they should be just trying to get good guys in there. I'm glad They got rid of Brogden to sort of clarify the point guard situation. Like, they've been priming this fan base for Scoot to be this great era parent.

Like, put them in position to do that. And, yeah, I do think they do got to get rid of Simons or Sharp for the exact same reason, right? It's like, yo, just clarify your lineup. And I know it gets difficult with young guys where it's like you want to develop them, but you also want them to earn their minutes. So it's like a delicate balance where you just don't want to just hand the guys the keys. But I thought it got a little bit clunky last year

in terms of pecking order. I think some kind of pecking order needs to be established. And, you know, they got a good close look at Aiton. That man is not the center of the future. He's just not. And it's fine. He's overpaid as hell, but it's fine.

Go out, bring in these guys' replacements and get your future going. The obvious deal I thought was low-key, fascinating because it's the type of deal you don't typically see. And it also kind of straddles the line between we're pushing too much too soon, but also actually maybe it's appropriately timed and just getting good players in the door is the best thing for our young team. So Obdia had only one good year of shooting at an acceptable level for a wing. And so they're kind of taken a bet on him to a certain extent. But if he hits, he's everything you want.

in a supplementary wing, a guy that I advocated very strongly for to be on our top 100 list as Rob knows all too well. He's up just a little bit, maybe. But no, obviously great defender can maybe shoot, very smart passer who can handle the ball. And his contract is incredible. It actually descends. And I think he's making around 15 minutes. And so, like, from an outside perspective, I think you could say typical Portland.

This reminds me of like Rob Covington, you know, trade in picks for a guy like or draft pick for Jeremy Grant just to plug a hole in order to get by with Dame. On the other hand, I think it's like a perfectly acceptable player and trade to make for where they're at as a way to kind of almost clarify what they are and move forward from here. Because like if you're just saying like the veterans that are kind of piling up here are just not long for this world, Aiton, William, some of the other guys, maybe even Jeremy Grant, then you can start to see a chalk outline of a team where it's like Scoot Shaden. we'll see, Abdiya, Klingen,

like, there's some logic to them. I don't even see it as a chalk outline so much as you throw all the muck up on the wall of their complete roster, and you just see certain things start to illuminate. And I think in particular, the triangulation of Scoot and Klingin,

anytime Scoot was with like an actual big playing pick and roll, you could see it kind of work for him. They just didn't have the spacing, and he doesn't really know how to read the complete floor yet because he was splitting time with guys like Malcolm Brogden. So clarify, narrow what you're doing. If you have that basic pick and roll game

and Denny Avdiah is a real shooter, that's a three-player combination that makes a ton of sense. Shaden is the wild card and complicating factor and ultimately, frankly, too talented and too springy and has too high and upside

to just balk at that or give up on that so you want to invest in it, you can deal with that sort of complication. The DeAndre Aiton, complication, you probably should resolve sooner than later. How do you resolve that, though?

There's got to be a tape. I mean, like the Mavs almost talked themselves into him last season. The Indiana Pacers gave him an offer sheet not long ago. I think people could be like, no, the Phoenix thing was just messed up and he needed to change the scenery. He was just sick of those guys and they badmouthed in the media and he needs to just go somewhere different. Then the snowstorm hit and it was never the same after that. Like what type of team? Like because to me, Aiton is like a fourth to fifth started and, you know, come full circle on the KCP thing.

Right? And what type of team can afford to pay a guy $35 million a year to be the fourth. It's only two more years is I think the silver lining there. That's the good thing of Indy signing him to that offer sheet is that you're only been down for the four. And so Portland only has two more there. But I agree with you. I think there's going to be a lot of Aitin plus clinging that nobody wants, but we're going

to get. Yeah. I just, I really think, I think what you all were saying about Scoot is true that like, I think they're going to kind of meet each other halfway in a way. It's not terribly dissimilar to the way like Sabonis and Fox did. I'm not going to say that like, you know, clinging is the same level passer as Sabonis because he's not. But like he's,

I think that they could have a nice kind of synergy together where they sort of connect each other's weaknesses. And it's a nice blend, I think. Shaden, on the other hand, Shaden may just be sort of a primary level. talented guy who you just have on your team that can kind of do that. Maybe sort of like a shorter MPJ kind of a thing or I don't want to say JR, but like just one of those guys who can give you a lot of offense, but I don't necessarily know that I'd want

to depend on him anything like rippling out from him. Yeah, he feels like one of those guys who feels and thinks the game in a silo. It's very much like a straight line from him to the rim or from him to the move or the spot on the floor he's trying to get to. And that's what I think if you're Portland, you're hoping can expand over. time. Like you're hoping and praying, can you become not even, you know, an elite playmaking wing, but can you get to Paul George level? You know, can you get to like very solid B, B plus level playmaking? Elite athletic prospects have done it before him. It may be a long shot for him now, but these are

the bets you make as a franchise with someone like Shaden Sharp. Before we go, as we're recording, I just want to break the news to you guys. Naji Marshall to the Mavs, three-year deal. Wow. Let's fucking go. That's a, that's a wave goodbye to Derek Jones Jr., I fear. Oh, that's unfortunate. I hadn't considered that. But love Najee Marshall and love a team taking a bet on him. So by proxy, I guess I love the Mavs.

Yeah. I mean, look, the Mavs do a nice bit of business. Najee Marshall, getting Quinn Grimes, as we alluded to, who, you know, if we did want to put a reason why Detroit didn't want to keep him around, he was kind of a disaster in his limited Pistons tenure. But the idea of Quentin Grimes and who he's been historically, that's a valuable player to Dallas. It used to be an untouchable Nick.

Yeah. That's right. Everyone's a disaster in Detroit. I think this will be outlined. Honestly fair. All right. That's it for us on this almost two-hour extravaganza. Thank you to Kyle Mann for joining us.

Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Tucker Tashin. We'll see you next time.