The Ringer NBA Show - Free Agency News Slows, but the Kawhi Tension Grows. Plus: Contrarian Corner | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 3, 2019

Does anyone actually know anything about Kawhi Leonard’s impending decision (0:40)? Plus: Now that we’ve had a few days to think about the new signings, were our initial reactions correct (15:21)? Hosts: Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer podcast network. To get you through the holiday week, check out the ringer.com for our July streaming recommendations, analysis on the U.S. women's national team during the World Cup, and takeaways from an exciting start to NBA-free agency. Also, we'll be sticking to our regular podcast schedule, so make sure to tune in to your favorite shows throughout the week as usual. Basketball is very good.

The Kings should sign more centers. The Knicks are better off without KD. The Wizards need Ernie Grunfill. Back. Basketball is very good. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's group chat. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined by Justin Verrier. Is Bill Hader sitting in on this one? That was really fun. Can I tell you that? That was really fun. Bill Hader, me and Bill Simmons did a podcast called The Rewatchables. I've heard of it. About the movie No Country for Old Men. So if you're sitting around on July 4th,

and if Kauai Leonard is signed by then, feel free to listen to that, man. Yeah, or not if you just need to wait as we are. Yes. So Kauai Leonard has us all on pins and needles. He is the last big free agent to sign, left to sign. And we're going to talk a little bit about where in the world, Gawydelner is. Yeah. Because we don't know. This is, this has been such a chaotic free agency period. In the years past, you had the decision so orchestrated, you know, Jim Gray. You had the Hamptons 5. You had the DeAndre Jordan hostage situation where at least it took place over the course of a few hours. We were all allowed to peek into the process. This time around, everything happened at once on Sunday. Then there was a lot of,

was another wave later on with Horford and Butler. Now we're days into it. Nobody knows where Quay Leonard is. There's pictures of him maybe in San Francisco. There's sightings. San Diego eating a burrito. And even the scoopers, the bombers,

they're not bombing and scooping. Like nobody seems to really know what's going on. Stein tried to kind of get some juice going yesterday, I think. It was just like, but it was pretty much like nobody knows anything. and apparently Drake is going to make a push on top of what the Raptors try to do. Sure. All we think we know is that the Raptors have the last meeting.

That meeting could be today. I saw elsewhere that it was yesterday. Oh, beautiful. What are you hearing? What do you think about this whole situation? I think it's interesting, especially because everything happened in the span of, what, five hours? This does kind of feel like a more traditional free agency thing, where a guy takes his time, surveys, the landscape decides on where he wants to go.

I don't know. I mean, like everybody else, we hear things, but we don't know how, you know, what the veracity of anything is at this point. And it does sound like, based on reporting and Intel and all its other stuff, that Kauai wants to keep this very quiet. And if you were one of the three teams still courting him,

you're not going to say a single word because you don't want to upset in him because there's a possibility if that gets out, he completely changes his mind. Which probably raises the degree of difficulty for the Lakers. Probably right, because someone is probably always, on the phone with an ESPN reporter.

Yeah, so I mean, they also just have an extended family outside of the company, whether it's outside of the team, whether it's magic or shout out to RD Ambition, Lakers Reddit guy. Seems to just know what Kurt Rambis, what sweet green dressing Kurt Rambus had on his salad today?

I guess I'm curious if this just ends up as a LeBron situation. So last year, we spent an entire year assuming that LeBron go to the Lakers. But it wasn't until the closer we got to free agency that we started to consider other options.

Philly was one team that kind of popped up at the end there. But ultimately, Philly didn't even really get a meeting. They got a phone call with Rich Paul, I believe. One of the other teams that were in the mix. The Rockets, I can't even remember at this point. It was like two years ago. The Knicks didn't get a meeting, right?

No. Like the Knicks, but they wanted to they wanted to be considered. I don't, can't remember who else. I don't think there were many options. I think it was essentially go back to Cleveland or go to the Lakers at the end of the day. And then Philly got a phone call. I feel like got a phone call. And the Rockets tried to. And I'm sure, like, you know, I'm sure there was things we didn't hear about, people who made a call.

And Rich was like, no thanks. But, right. So we spent a year assuming this outcome would happen. And it did happen because it seemed like there was just so much momentum going there. He had already kind of made a decision. Whatever happened, he just, like, it bore out that what we had assumed came to bear. I wonder if Kauai is a similar situation. We spent this entire year.

Everything was fluctuating. But there's been now two to three weeks since the finals, and he's already away from Toronto. He's in San Diego, buying his burritos. You think he should be summering in Toronto? Well, a little humid. I don't know how he deals with that, especially with hair, especially if he's not going to be corn road.

Sure, yeah. A little frizzy. I wonder if he just resets to his default opinion. If he's away from whatever happened in Toronto, he's already distanced himself physically. Yeah. Perhaps that's enough to ultimately defund him. fault back to his original assumption.

And I guess the question is, is that the Lakers, or is that the Clippers? The Clippers are the team that we kind of all assumed this entire year he would go back to. But the Lakers were a team when he wanted to leave San Antonio were the first option. All the reporting suggested he wanted to go there, not necessarily the Clippers. Yeah, I, you know, I can't ascribe anything to him. You know, and that's not even like a, like, Kauai the Terminator, Kauai the Robot thing. I mean, he just doesn't talk about how his mind works. You know, he doesn't talk about how he hasn't.

really expressed what's important to him, which is like, all this stuff is fine. It's so weird now to be on the other side of this with like, listening to Rosillo and Bill, talk about Kevin Durant, and the reason he goes to Brooklyn is possibly because of like the Ali Baba ownership stake there and, you know,

all the, all the avenues that could open up for his outside of basketball business interests and stuff like that. But with Kauai, I mean, I have no idea. I could say, I could totally see him signing a one-on-one in Toronto and punting this to another year. The only thing that I've heard about him is that he wants to be back in LA.

And like, I don't know how much that's been affected by his Toronto experience, but everything it seems like throughout his entire career was to get back to L.A. And as you've seen, every opportunity he has, he goes back to the West Coast. And the only other thing is, like, we all assumed a lot about Kauai earlier in his career. We assumed that he would be the perfect spur. Right. And I don't think he ever wanted to be that. And he made that very clear when he just,

kind of punted an entire season. I know there was injuries involved there, but clearly something other than that was happening. Yeah. So I don't know if we should assume, based on them winning the title last year, that he formed all these tight-knit relationships that he's ultimately going to rely back on, because that just doesn't seem like the type of thing that he does or really, like, really means a lot to him. Do you think it matters at all? I mean, do you think it matters at all that this kind of transactional turnover is happening and what it does to do you think it wears away

at our understanding of what like basketball teams are supposed to be? I was just kind of wondering about this because Kauai actually is this like he's so opaque and it's like well so you didn't want to be on the spurs but maybe you didn't want to be on the spurs because you felt like

they mishandled your quad injury so that was like a breach and trust and you wanted to leave and then you go to Toronto and you win a championship but you'd assume nobody ever leaves a team that just won a title. Like, you don't know when I think NBA history has done it, right? Like, or at least. I can't think of anyone.

Yeah, I mean, even LeBron stayed. Yeah. When Cleveland won, he stayed for another year or whatever. And if Kauai leaves, and if he goes to the Lakers, that comes with all sorts of of questions about, like, why would you feel the need to play with Davis and LeBron if you show that you can pretty much win a championship by yourself? And if he goes to the Clippers, I think there would be a contingent of people, be like, why would you go to the Clippers?

They're actually just a worse version of Toronto. Right. And then if you stay in Toronto, people will be like, well, why did you put everybody through this in the front place? Why did he just announce at the parade see you next to your baby? Like, yeah. I mean, not that I, he gets to make his decision.

He gets to have this choice. But I just wonder whether like long term this will wear away at the binding between team and fan. Just out of curiosity. It's actually like already done it for me in a lot of ways because I work in the media, not necessarily. I still am a Sixers fan. But I am still like a little bit more cynical about that relationship.

But I wonder whether for the average, fan when I hear people say like, why would you go to Brooklyn? Nobody likes Brooklyn. Nobody like there are no Brooklyn fans. It's like, no, but there are fucking a lot of Katie and Kyrie fans. Right. Yeah, I think the one takeaway I have from this entire year of free agency just, just tracking is that ultimately it comes down to one man's decision. Like, we spend all this time just haggling over which team will be the best. It reminds me of trade packages, how we're always like, this is fair value for this player. And it never equals what. ends up happening.

Like, Anthony Davis is the only recent trade that I can think of where the team just got bowled over with assets and all that. Kauai got traded for DeMarter Rosen. Because those guys, because R.C. and Greg were like, yeah, is it. Like, let's just do this. So it's really the same thing. Like, one player, if he prefers a steak burrito to a chicken,

like, that is the type of like either-or situation that this ultimately boils down to. Do you want the clippers or do you want the Lakers? Two franchises in L.A. a little bit different. Yeah. What are your taste? preferences. And KD's same situation. It seemed like he wanted to play with Kyrie in New York. And the Nets just happened to be a better situation than the Knicks. Jimmy Butler, he said all this stuff about wanting to play on a title team. And one in the five years, too. Ultimately, he takes

four and a sign and trade to go to Miami and he is the guy there. Yeah. Which is totally fine. That's cool. I think Jimmy has some sort of Miami mercenary and leading that team to relevance in a way that they haven't been over the past few years, that's interesting. I've kind of come around on that fit for Jimmy. Yeah. But I don't necessarily think that they'll be any better than like a five seed. Yeah, they don't strike me as being an elite team. I think he's maybe finally found the perfect combination of modern tactical Nouse with like the Tibido.

Not the Tibado is not tactically like an advanced tactical thinker. but it's basically like Tibido with a haircut, you know? It's like really nice place to live with a really solid organization that really values and, in fact, promotes the things that Jimmy promotes, like, relentless hard work and body fat and defense and stuff like that. It's interesting that Miami's identity has become like abs. Yeah. We'll get you ripped. We'll get you ripped. Yeah.

You will look great by the pool. Miami is an infomercial in the middle of the night that's just like, stop getting sand kicked in your face, bro. Get this 12 pack. I just, yeah, with him, I just don't know if he is a frontline guy who could lift a franchise to perhaps like an Eastern Conference finals. Like, he's still 30 years old going into this season. He's still a 34% three-point shooter. I'm curious how Eric Spolstra kind of brings out the best in him. He is kind of in a certain way, a little bit evolutionary Dwayne Wade, where he's not really a two.

guard. He's kind of a ball handling two guard. And so there's some sort of like succession thing going there that's like moderately interesting to track. But I don't know, man. I just, it doesn't, it doesn't work for me right now. Okay. Well, we shouldn't get two to do lost in the weeds here because we might just have to re-record this podcast in an hour. So let's just talk briefly the news today. We don't have to spend much time on this, but we had Chandler Parsons going from Memphis to Atlanta for Solomon Hill and Miles Plumley, which is essentially just like two. planes full of cash passing in the night across America. What a way for the Chandler Parsons era to end in Memphis.

This is what I would call a shell company trade. You know, I don't really, it's just like a bunch of empty money being exchanged for accounting purposes. I don't know if Chandler Parsons will make any kind of appearance for Atlanta. Solomon Hill was like a useful player recently enough. No? No. He's a nice guy.

I actually can't remember ever watching Solomon Hill play basketball. I'll put it down. way, but I just like, I feel like some people have been like, and then they got Solomon Hill, but maybe that was like six years ago. Yeah, when the Pelican signed him, there was a hope that he could be this like switchy, like light Draymond type. Okay. That did not come to bear in part because his offense was quite dreadful.

But yeah, I think this, this trade, as I forgot who mentioned it right after it was broken, is essentially one big contract for two big contracts. Uh-huh. And it just seems like the Grizzlies, they would prefer two because it's probably easier to move and the hawks just won an open roster spot. Yeah. For another young guy to potentially look at. Sure.

The only other news that we really have is Boogie has still not signed. Marcus Cousin still hasn't signed with a basketball team. But he changed his representation to Jeff Schwartz, who's Kyrie Irving's former manager, and maybe Jeff Schwartz will be able to get something done. Schwartz typically has traditionally had a pretty good relationship with the Celtics, which I think would have been an interesting spot for Boogie. Although maybe they're just trying to be. trying to do a year without distractions.

That's true, yeah. You know, like maybe they were like, yeah, we experimented a little bit with having a bunch of personalities in the locker room and now we're just going to go with, like, the kids and Gordon. Yeah, we still have in my office the boogie with a Celtics jersey on hanging above one day and shout was death. So it'd be nice to see that kind of come to fruition. Yeah.

At this point, I don't know who needs boogie. It's a weird situation where not only has he had these two, one devastating injury, another bad injury right in a row. But in addition to that, I do wonder who needs a player like Boogie in 2019. Right. He's still a very skilled player. And you could see that even in the finals, even as he was struggling, like he would get the ball moving in a way that you're like, oh, I could see that.

Yeah. If someone could just kind of paper over some of his concerns, especially on the defense fan, maybe he can still be a helpful player. But he's not going to help you on defense. And he's not going to be able to get back on defense most of the time. Yeah. And why would you spend something above the minimum or just like a light exception to take a risk on that guy? Yeah, I think that he is somebody who will obviously wind up on a Lakers or like a team that kind of like at the last second and feels like they have a culture that can keep him in line like a Lakers or heat or whoever will get him in on a minute.

Now it was a rumor on Reddit, right, the DeRosen wanted boogie. Apparently. I don't know if Poppin Buford won't boogie. I don't know. Now that the Spurs lost out on the Bojan Bogdanovich sweepstakes. Right, but they did get Damari Carroll. That's true.

I saw. And Rudy Gay, our guy. Eye bleeding emoji right there. My God. But yeah, I mean, a team like that who convinces itself that, you know, there's still something left here and we could bring out the best in him. Right.

That seems like his inevitable future. But I don't know. Maybe Jeff Schwartz can get things in motion. Yeah. Well, okay, so what Justin and I wanted to do today while we wait for Kauai is basically, one of the things I really enjoy about Justin is like I can always count on him to when I walk into his office and be like, man, this seems like a pretty cool thing. He'll be like, is it though?

So I'm just the wet blanket in your life. No, I mean, you like things. You like Deadwood. Yeah, I do like the hoopel heads. But when it comes to basketball, he is very much a grounding force in my life. And we wanted to do something today called Contrary and Corner, contrarian Corner, because we came out of this weekend. And I think that the sheer volume and speed at which transactions went across the line, we were kind of like, everything is good because it happened.

And even things that might be weird or bad, like, it's just crazy that it happened. And in truth, like, now that we have a couple days' perspective, I think that we can maybe take a harder look at some of this stuff, right? So I'm going to pitch Justin on the conventional wisdom on a couple of these things. and then Justin's going to do, he's going to come out of contrarian corner fighting. Okay. And we'll have a conversation about a couple of teams here.

So, first one. And this is, this is a real, it's a real favorite of the basketball Titorati. Yeah, this is a tough one for me. Is Utah really the best team in the West? Now, conventional wisdom says that Utah,

while everybody else was taking guys out to Nobu, and, you know, putting people's names up on billboards, and showing them all the opportunities they would have in tech and startups, like Utah just got their business done. And what they did is they got themselves a starting five that could win them the finals.

The closest, there's the best shot they have since the heyday of Mailman and Stockton. Right. So, you know, they added Connolly, they added Bogdanovich, they added Moodye and Jeff Green. Sure. What do you think is the reality

of this Utah situation? This is a tough one to thread the needle on because I do like what Utah has done. They needed more offense. They needed more reliable offense in particular. And they got the steadiest hand, perhaps in the NBA, in Mike Conley. And they got Boyan Bogdanovich, a guy who's just a steady pro, who has done nothing wrong in like the past two years. He was like a perfectly above average wing who could play some defense,

who could knock down shots for you in Indiana. My thing is like, are they really the best team in the NBA, in the West even? I just, I don't, first of all, the first red flag. That would be funny if that was the extent of your argument. My thing is, are we sure about that guys? Do you really want to do it? No, it's just, first of all, Nicola Merrittich was first on their list. Uh-huh.

There's enough reporting out there that suggested that if Nicola-Mirich did not, just decide to go home and just sit on a beach in Barcelona, that they would have probably signed him. He would have been on a beach on the Salt Lake. Right. The beautiful Salt Lake beaches. Very salty, very lakey. But because what they need ultimately is a stretch four type,

which they didn't really have last year. They were kind of reliant on favors to spot a lot in that situation. And Jay Crowder, Crowder obviously hasn't been able to shoot since that one miracle year in Boston. Yeah. They have Boyon, and I think what they've set up here works, where Ed Davis is probably going to start, and Boyon will probably be at the three,

and Ingalls will probably be coming off the bench. Right, so it'll probably go Conley, Mitchell, Boion, who did you say was the four? Probably Ed Davis. Ed Davis, Gobert. Okay. She's solid. I don't love Davis and Gobert sharing a front court,

but they did it with favors and Gobert to reasonable effect for the past few seasons. seasons, and they'll probably close with Ingalls, Bojan, Gobert. I think they have more offense. I just don't know if they have elite offense. Ultimately, it comes down to like a pretty reductive reasoning where it's like who is the best player in Utah. Who do we think is the best player?

It's probably Mike Conley. Is it Donovan Mitchell? I think that all these signings were made, A, because this is who they, this is who they targeted and this is who they felt like they could get. But they were also made to boost Mitchell. Yeah, and I think that's a bad sign. I mean, it makes sense, and it's a good organizational decision, but if you need to boost your best player,

like there's probably some signs. I wonder if we'll look back on this in the playoffs where they are eliminated in the second round, even in the Western Conference finals, and suggest, like, well, they need Donovan Mitchell to be the guy, and he's just not the guy. Yeah. And it does feel like they're targeting this window.

They traded draft assets in order to get Conley. This is Mitchell on the rookie QB contract. That's what this is. Right. And clearly, Bojan is not a spring chicken. I think he's 30 years old. They are trying to go for it now, very clearly.

Conley's only on a deal for one more year after this. I think he has an early termination option after this season. I just, I don't know. I even like some of the things they've done with their bench. I mean, Jeff Crean, we joke, who has been kind of floating around the ether for years, but I think he's like a quality stretch four option. I think you could do some things where you play Jeff Green and Boyan

and Ingle's and Mitch, and that all works. I just, ultimately, the league, I don't know a team that has gone to the finals one. Yeah. Or one of finals without elite superstar level guy. And I just don't know who that guy is on this team. I think, like, they will be an excellent regular season team

that will have a lot of questions, ask them in the postseason. Yeah. Can you keep a go bear on the floor? What happens if Mitchell's shot isn't falling? Who's the guy who's going to score 28 points and get you over the hump in a game four? You know what I mean? Yeah.

Who's the guy who's going to just be like, I got this, put it on my back? We've seen Mitchell do it before, especially in that Oklahoma series two seasons ago. But we kind of had a little bit of a drop off. And I think he felt it felt like he was a little bit out on an island last season in terms of generating offense. So it'll be, I could definitely see this team winning 53 games or something, 55 games. I could see them even winning or being the first seat in the West. Yeah. They're just like they look to me like a very good.

San Antonio team that just grind, like, just like buzz saws the league because every night they're ready to go? Yeah, and what have we been saying about the jazz the past two seasons? That they played above what their record suggested. Yeah. They had this really tough early season schedule. Two years in a row, somehow this happened.

Is that like a scheduling thing for like, is there something in Utah that like the way they have the rodeo in San Antonio and they always have a dip at the rodeo and it was like, damn, San Antonio's fall apart. And they win like 25 with their last 30 and it's like, oh my God, the Spurs are back. It could just be the way the schedule bore out,

but it could also be that Gobert was hurt earlier in the season, so they didn't have him. Obviously, he's a big part of what they do on defense. And that's another concern that I have just against a small ball team, which there aren't many, which we could talk about, but against the Rockets who are still out there playing PJ Tucker at center, is Gobert going to be able to stay on the floor against that? And if he's not, who is your small ball center?

Who is your Draymond type who can let you match up against that? drop Ed Davis down a slot then? I guess Davis would make some sense. And you play angles? Yeah, that's actually, that's interesting. That's fine. Yeah. I don't know if that's like you're beating the Lakers.

Right. Or the Thunder even. Right. I mean, they've beaten the Thunder, but I'm just saying like there's a lot of questions getting asked there in the postseason. Yeah, I guess as I'm thinking about it, maybe the comp is just that Dwayne Wade Shack Heat team.

I just don't know if that works in today's NBA where you have a team like the Lakers, even if they don't get Kauai, you're dealing with LeBron, James, and Anthony Davis. Yeah. And if we're just going by the logic, as it often, like, this is what often happens, is that your best player often wins the series.

Like, I would go with the Lakers in that situation. Yeah. So we talk about Mitchell being, them putting Mitchell as like, okay, so like we have you on the cheap for a couple of years here. Let's do this. Let's build around you with veterans and get you ready to win. In a lot of ways, they're following the Philly model. of to some extent going all in around a young talent.

And in Philly's case, two young talents, although there's a raging debate that never seems to end about which young talent they should really be building around. Now, obviously, Joel Embed has become synonymous with the Sixers. He is now like the hell or high water. He is the guy. But Ben Simmons is equally integral to their success or failure,

even if he has made possibly not as beloved as Embedd as a sixer. It's interesting what Embedde's failures are are kind of like brushed aside sometimes as like, well, it's just a part of, it's the price you pay for a guy like that because sometimes he's going to get tired or whatever, he's going to get the stomach problems

in a playoff series. The bubble guts. Yeah, or whatever. It's just like that was like kind of like, ah, yeah, but like come on back the next game. Let's do it. Brother, the process. And I'm one of those people.

Is that how Philly people talk? No. I don't know why I made him sound like that. Simmons was just offered a five-year $170 million max extension. There's no reporting yet on whether it's the fifth year is an option. So Philly is locking up this team. Sure. They are pushing in the chips.

And yet, the first thing people said after this happened was like, are we sure Ben Simmons is worth this? Are we sure that you guys should be overly? Now, I don't know what the alternative here is. I mean, Ben Simmons seems wildly. tradable to me. Yeah. There's like 12 teams in the league

who would be like, yeah, whatever, let's do this. And there's a couple of teams that I saw like from the free agency that didn't get what they wanted that still have assets that I think you could hit up if you were like, all right,

any season after this doesn't work again, there's more public friction between M.B. and Simmons. Like, you can find somebody who will take some. Yeah. This is, to me, this is inevitable. Yeah.

Like every good player signs a second contract with his team. It's just financially, just better. Yeah. I mean, this is just, I'm glad it's not a distraction. I'm glad it's not a distraction. I'm glad it's not like, well, Ben Simmons is Lakers. But Ben Simmons

turned down his second extension to get the hell out of Philly. In any case, I'm super excited about this Philly team going to next season is Horford, Simmons, and B, Tobias Harris, Josh Richardson. There's a lot of questions to be asked, but for the most part, I mean, I've heard multiple times from multiple

people, yeah, they're the team to beat in the east. Yeah. Are they the team to beat in the east? People are saying that? Yeah. Yeah. I think I like the roster more than last year's roster. I think the way that they cover up some of their deficiencies makes a lot of sense. I think Horford being able to spot Embed at center is a good move because clearly

Embed probably he isn't available as often as you would like, especially in the playoffs the past couple of years. And they should probably be playing him less during the regular season. So having just the second, like just a almost, like a really good backup QB is a really interesting move and I think the right one with him. Tobias Harris, good player in a vacuum. Josh Richardson, good player in a vacuum. I just, I think the roster might be better than last year. I think it might be worse for Ben Simmons.

Everything we've been saying about Simmons is that he should be treated more as a big, just this transformative big, almost like evolutionary Dremont. Do you say that, right. Okay, so that's what you're saying, Dremont. Like the guy who, Rips the ball out of the net and goes flying up the court. A LeBron type. Clearly not to that level, but he has the big body, also the vision,

also the ability to run the break. Ben Simmons is essentially Mario Andretti, and he's going to be playing in a monster truck. And I just don't know how that's going to work. They're going to be playing slower and giving him fewer minutes, because they also have Jonah Bolden at center. So, Charks wrote this good thing last year during the playoffs, or this year during the playoffs,

about how Simmons should be a center. And I 100% agree. I don't know if the statistics bear it out. But I think it's important to distinguish that when you're saying that, when you're saying that, when you're saying that, like I think the first thing that flashes to somebody's mind is, so you want Ben Simmons to be posting up and waiting for entry passes. And that's not what you're saying.

No, no, no, no. I think he should be surrounded by four shooters. Yes. He should be a point guard on offense, but he should still be able to guard Biggs on defense. Because he is a huge guy. Let me just hit the shooters filter on the Sixers roster. Is there nobody that comes up?

No, I think that they're, the smalls with Simmons roster, like, lineup is my kind of shit. Yeah. It's like Thibel Smith, Richardson, and Harris. Yeah. And Simmons. Like, that's what I'm, that's what's up. I guess Zaire would be flying around to. Zaire, Thibel, Harris, and Richardson with Ben pushing.

Yeah. But we're going to be able to build a Masonic Temer. out of the bricks that come off of that team. Yeah. That's the problem. I mean, I guess I understand it because shooting, it's going to come at a premium. It's just not out there for cheap.

And they did get shooting while still sizing up. Tobias Harris is a quality three-point shooter. El Horford is a respectable three-point shooter, although I do wonder how well he's going to shoot, considering all these other guys who can't shoot are going to be around him and there are going to be more guys being able to go out. Also, Joel and Bid likes to stand there and shoot threes, too. So you can have two, like, huge centers

shooting 30% at 3 or whatever it is? And I also think it's about, it's about spacing on the court, like physical, like, where are you going to position them? Because if L. Horford, if you want him taking threes from the top of the key in order to get back on defense, well, that's what Ben, excuse me,

that's what Joel Embed has been doing. So, like, it's just like, I don't know what they're going to end up orchestrating in order to fit all them together, but I just don't know if it fits Ben Simmons's particular skill set. And I think you made a really good point off the top. it does feel like they're leaning into Embed as their best player and worrying about Simmons is almost like an ancillary.

Yeah, and basically Horford with Embed forms a Janus Wall. And Horford provides the ability to sit Embed for longer during the regular season and stagger those minutes so that Embedd is closer to like 31 minutes a game during the regular season rather than 38 minutes a game. And I hope that they don't go chasing an MVP.

award again next year. There's that. I think it also helps that El Horford isn't around to garden dwell and beat anymore. I know. There was this whole thing. I mean,

like that was sort of the doc thing. There does feel like it's a little bit of Boston Dock Rivers in charge of the Sixers right now? Did this guy kick our ass? Let's sign them. Yeah. You're saying Elton Brand

perhaps isn't the best GM out there? I don't know. I mean, I'm incredibly hopeful. And I think that this team, I know you think that they're going to be a little bit slower, but I think they're going to be

pretty fun acrobatic team. especially if we get anything from Smith and Thuybal. Yeah, yeah. I just wonder, looking back on it, like, if they had just kept McKell Bridges, I wonder if that, like... But I don't even know if they could have afforded what they've done since then if they had done that,

because wasn't that all about saving, like, a million dollars so that they could sign somebody... It's a weird butterfly effect, too, because if they didn't make that trade, they wouldn't have had the Miami 2020-20-pick... To overpay for... to overpay for Tobias Harris. To send for half a season of Tobias Harris and pay him a five-year max contract.

And the other butterfly effect is that they could be sitting there with Simmons and Bede and Mikhail Bridges, because Jimmy Butler could have left and they never could have gotten Tobias Harris. And they would have traded Sarge and Covington. So you wind up with then like a six-seat team probably. Yeah. Well, I would say the Butler trade is the original sin. I still don't know why they did that to begin with. Right.

Well, I mean, I know why they did it. I just don't agree with the rationale. And clearly it didn't work out well. I will say this, though. not getting Jimmy back. I don't know if that was an organizational decision to move around for him or Jimmy just wanted to go elsewhere.

I do think it will help Ben Simmons to not have that crutch anymore because Butler was clearly the guy in the playoffs and the guy that they were going to to run the offense and make the crucial decisions late in the game. You want Simmons to get those reps, but they're in this weird situation

where he needs time and he needs those reps, but they need to win now because of what they've done. It's not dissimilar from, we talked about the, if we're talking about like the Jazz and the Sixers is kind of related, and in some ways Simmons and Mitchell is related. Mitchell has had like a star making performance in the playoffs in a way

that I think that Simmons has had really great playoff games, but when it gets to crunch time and he needs to hit an 11-footer or a three or something, like kind of vanishes a little bit. And part of that is Brett taking him the ball out of his hands, and part of it is the fact that he simply cannot shoot or won't show it if he can. but at the you know those are these are young guys who are in their third seasons right

for seasons and they this will be nut cutting time you know this will be like where it's like okay so like if you guys built around this guy these young guys and you added veteran pieces around them but you're still only going to get as far as they can take you

yeah and it is on Ben Simmons to kind of figure this out here the fact that he can't even shoot from the foul line is an issue yeah that no player should have especially a who has this transformative ability. You should be able to shoot a credible corner three. No, I mean, like, you brought up Dramon Light.

Like, that's exactly what he should be. Even if he misses, he needs to make them pay, like, at least, like, step out on it. It can't be this sag. And if it's a top of the key three or if it's a foul line jumper or whatever it is, he's got to be able to make offensive's pay. And that will literally decide the fate of the franchise.

In some ways, I think more... M. B. could be a Lajuan. I just don't know. if this roster configuration is going to change. This roster will be what it is until Simmons can shoot a little bit. A little bit.

And I guess the darkest timeline is now that he is probably going to sign this extension, worst case if this doesn't work out this season, you could always trade him for something else. I hope it works out. I actually, well, actually, no, I won't say that. I don't care if it works out. Well, no, but I think it's like sometimes we talk about Simmons

and his shot and like him being put in the dunker spot, and him being like, well, he's a big man, he's not a point. Like, Simmons is a transformational talent. Yeah. Simmons is my favorite basketball player to watch right now. I think he is unfucking believable to watch him play basketball. And I love him. But, like, he can't do the most important thing in basketball right now.

Yeah. And that's so fascinating to see how that'll play out. I just, I hope he gets this and I wish he had it now, his own team. I just, I think if he was out and running, I think he would just be the guy we we hoped he would be in that rookie season. What we saw then would... If he was like on the Bulls with all the guys that they have being like,

is this like, yeah, it's like Markin'in and Carter and all these guys and they're just like, yeah, you do it. And we'll just rebound and we'll go for Alley Ups and stuff and stand in the corners. They would not be as good as the Sixers, but it might make Ben Simmons's cue rating go up. Sure. This next one that you have here is pretty interesting

because I actually haven't heard this. but I'm going to do it anyway. The Boston Celtics, are we sure Boston is going to be all that good? And I think your point is more that they're going to revert back to the scrappy underdog Brad the Genius Celtics with Kemba kind of in the Isaiah Thomas role

rather than the Kyrie Irving role and that Gordon Hayward will have a bounce back season and that Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum will have bounce back seasons because now they don't have to deal with Kyrie slandering them in the press every game. but you have some second thoughts about that. Yeah, a lot of these are probably straw man arguments, and this one in particular perhaps is just like an invisible man,

because I don't know who is saying that the Celtics are going to be this top team. Although it does feel like there's this momentum for this idea that the fact that the vibes will be really good will just work better for this entire team, and I don't dismiss that. But it smacks of this whole thing of like, when you say somebody's a nice guy, there's always a butt that comes afterward.

Because if the best thing you could say about someone is that they're nice, it just ultimately means that there's not that much interesting or not that much really good about what's going out. And it seems like they prioritize the vibes over perhaps talent. And like, as we've seen in this league, you just want the most talented guys. And so I think they did a good job rebounding from the Kyrie debacle.

Well, I don't know if they chose that. I mean, there's mixed reports about whether or not they want to Kyrie back up to the Sunday. There was still like, is Boston still in this? Could Boston, not up to Sunday, but like the week before free agency, I still think that there was a rumor or two about like, could there be a, you know, could Kyrie and Boston like make peace or whatever? But they didn't choose to lose Kyrie. No. You know, they were like, we got to get this guy out of here to make sure that Daniel Thice, like, feels more comfortable in the locker room. This is the hand they were dealt.

Yeah. I think that the bigger indictment on it, or not in the indictment, but the bigger problem is that they wound up using a lot of the stuff that they have accumulated over the years on players that didn't ultimately work out. Yeah, I mean, I've said this before. Like, the irony is their best move ultimately, just completely undercut all the big planning that they've done over the couple of years. If Kyrie had just worked his way into this team and this culture and everything worked out fine,

even if they didn't make it to the Eastern Conference finals this year, They had everything they needed to go trade for Anthony Davis. They had his friend in Kyrie Irving, and everything would have worked out as Danny Ainsch probably constructed years ago. They've had Anthony Davis as their number one target on their cork board for like years. So yes, they did ultimately recover from a situation. I just think, like, if we're just assuming that the Celtics will be right back there in the mix as even a top four team, I think it might be ambitious. So what's your top four in the east right now?

Let's say Kauai signs in the West. What's your top four in these? Yeah, that's a tough one, if quite. Say Philly. Well, yeah, definitely Philly. I think there will be a good regular season team, especially because what we mentioned earlier about Horford being able to spot and bead.

The Bucks, definitely. Depends on when Victor Old Depot comes back for the Pacers. You think the Pacers are going to be better than the Celtics? I think they could be a very good regular season team. Okay. So I think he's supposed to come down. Yeah. Depot.

DJ Warren. Goga Bitzali I have a contrary corner on that Well I mean They'll definitely be in the mix I think a Nets team

Even without Kevin Durant Is gonna be there Yeah I mean Miami could win a lot Of regular season games I don't know I mean I think that the east is

Kauai being Like this is why we're still sort of like Well we don't really know What to do with our hands Until we find out what happens with Kauai Because if Kauai stays in the east That immediately becomes

I mean you have to give Toronto The edge there Sure If, and then you could almost have basically running it back of what it was last year in the East, even though all the names on the back of the jerseys have changed, you know, it's Kemba instead of Kyrie. But like Brooklyn will probably make the playoffs, right? Yeah, I think so. Miami will probably make the playoffs. Man, it's going to be really interesting.

And it really depends on who takes the regular season. I could see the Sixers maybe being a little bit worse in the regular season if they sit and bead more or if they manage Embed's minutes differently. I don't know. Yeah. And if you want to have a tangential contraier intake, I just, I don't know how the bucks are ever better. They spent all this money to bring back all the guys that helped them succeed this season. They lost Brogden in the process.

They have some youth kind of in reserve. There's the Sterling Browns, the Dante D. Fincenzo's, those guys can step up. You don't need Boggant if you've got Dante. Well, I mean, he could shoot in theory. Yeah. So they have options in order to recreate a Brogden and fill into the rest of the roster. I just, I think everybody's assuming that Janus has this next level to take. I just, I don't know if that's true.

I just think that the Janus conversation is similar to the events in this conversation where it's like, are we ignoring, I mean, he just won the MVP's. We're not ignoring anything. But are we underrating what he can do by looking only at what he can't do? I think that the Toronto series we found out, Toronto was a juggernaut. And they, like, yes, they defended Janus perfectly. and we were watching as like Janice would get into the lane and four seven foot guys

at least in terms of wingspan would just swallow him but I'd like to think that Milwaukee can find a wrinkle. Let's move on because this one's actually I'm fascinated by. Kemba left Charlotte to go to Boston and Charlotte's been getting killed

this week for what they've done to this franchise. Isn't Charlotte's approach the right approach though? That's what I'm thinking here. Okay. So clearly Charlotte is a tough team to defend. They haven't done themselves any favors in the past five years. They had that one playoff team, which was pretty good. The Clifford team?

Yeah. Yeah. But they just re-signed everybody and she's really been downhill ever since. And they've made some moves since the Kemba kind of departure. It hasn't helped their case. But while they back themselves into a corner by not trading Kemba at the day, deadline. Two things have kind of played out since then. One, he was eligible for the Supermax. And while Charlotte, a team that doesn't have anything other than Kemba, everyone would suggest,

well, you just pay him what he's worth. That's a really bad contract. For most players, let alone a small point guard who will be 34 and making potentially $54 million on the last year of that deal. So I don't I don't know what you expected Charlotte to do in this situation. Yeah, and I think that one of the things that it depends on team to team, you'll give everybody credit like,

oh, they got so much money coming off the books in 2021, man. Yeah. They got so much money. And this is the case for Charlotte. The expiring is in 2019. The expiring contracts they have going in the next season are Beambo, Marvin Williams, and MKG.

It's 45 million. And then the following, your Batum and Zeller, right? Yes, this is the other thing. So if you bring back Kemba, he's probably not going to be able to compete for a year or two because you're stuck in cap hell. And so you have a situation where perhaps you could trade

some of these contracts and some picks in order to win now to take advantage of his window when he'll be 30, 31 still in his prime. But then you're punting the last years of his deal when those will be even more toxic. Or you could wait. You could play out one or two years. years going with this team that they have now, which probably isn't good enough to make

the playoffs and hope for the back end, but then he's older. So they were in a no-win situation to begin with, and I think ultimately the best move was to move on from Kemba and to start fresh. Yeah. That thinking to me is the most logical approach. Yes, it's hard to ascribe logic to Charlotte. That's the issue. And also Charlotte, in all likelihood, would not ever really be a free agency destination.

you could make the argument that some Jumpman stuff could happen, that some Jordan stuff could happen, that there is like a pitch to be like, come to Charlotte, be the face of this franchise, be the new face of Jump Man, right? I don't even know if he,

I don't even know if I really understand Jordan's relationship to Jump Man in terms of making those determinations, but let's just say that's the case. Clearly the league doesn't care because it's on their jerseys. The problem is these guys don't draft well. Yeah.

And they haven't, some of it's been bad luck. some of it had like with the lottery and some of it has just been straight up you fucked up you picked Kaminsky you know and they have Bridges Bacon and Herndon Gomez like you have you've noted here

but it's hard to believe in the project if you know that there's like this key function that's not working which is like picking the right talent yeah they're not going to be able to bring guys in it they can have all the cab space in the world or nothing and they didn't alleviate

concerns by their follow-up move which is the signed Terry Rozier. Yeah. To three years, 58 million. He is a career 38% shooter. Yeah. Not three point shooter. That's his shooting from the floor.

And while I think the optimist view of that is that while Terri Rozier showed in that playoffs two years ago that he is potentially a starting point guard in the NBA. Maybe there is untapped potential there. I don't believe it. And I think if you put him in a situation with a bunch of veterans like the hornets have, there's a possibility that, like, they might kill him in, like, five months. But, like, that's not the worst flyer in the world.

Yeah. And if you're capped out anyway, maybe just make a go of it, be irrelevant for two more years, and try to pick up. See if you can reboot the franchise in a couple years. They need a hard reset. And if they don't do so after two years from now,

then, yes, I'm willing to kill them and say that, like, they have done everything wrong and they're just, they can't be saved. But right now, they have an opportunity to have really kind of reconsider everything that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. And we're at least probably remain not bottom basement, although maybe they should be. All right. So that's Charlotte. Justin and I are going to wrap it up there. We will likely be with you at some point this week to talk about Kauai with Kevin O'Connor. We will wait on fins and needles at our barbecues to hear the word.

Maybe it'll come today, though. Thanks for listening to group chat. We'll talk to you soon. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.