The Ringer NBA Show - Free Agency Primer, Russ to Lakers, the Chris Paul Effect, and Bargain-Bin Free Agents | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 31, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos start by giving their thoughts on the Russell Westbrook trade (1:20). Then they give a free agency preview by talking about the Chris Paul effect (24:45) and the large group of quality point guards available as free agents or through trade (37:40). Finally, they tell you their favorite “bargain-bin” free agent (1:03:15). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's good, everybody? I'm John G. Stremski, host of New York, New York with JJ, the first podcast on the ringer in Spotify, dedicated to you, the New York Sports fan. We've got episode three nights a week, plus bonus episodes whenever news breaks. So make sure you follow the show on Spotify. Hello and welcome to this free agency primer special edition of the group chat. I am Justin Barrier. Joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Wise. Gentlemen, are you ready for the real offseason to begin? Only when we retake that again, because we talked about this last year, it's primer, not primer. Get it together. Is it actually? It actually is primer, not primer. All right.

Well, we'll figure that out in the meantime. But the draft is over with, which means that we are pivoting very quickly here to all the other offseason moves on the table here. Big trades for stars potentially, free agent signing. Not a great class in free agency, but two or three or four major things always seem to happen at the moment. in opportune moments, especially when you're out and not expecting these type of things. So, but first, let's get to the thing that happened last night outside of the draft, the big one, Russell Westbrook going to the Lakers. I asked a couple of people after this happened, like what were your takes?

And it was generally like WTF in various forms, including with Rob. So, Waz, what was your, what was your takeaway from this one? Can you even make sense of what the Lakers are thinking here? Yeah, I think the sense is. that Russ, flawed a player as he is, he is still immensely talented. That's the one.

And two, he's really close with LeBron. They have a really great relationship. By all accounts, they're friends. Like actually genuinely friends. And so, you know,

that's the thinking there. I think people like me and I'm assuming the people that you talk to why we would be confused by it is like, look, ever since Miami, D-emphasized D. Wade's role on the team back when LeBron was over there, we figured out

that the formula to optimize what LeBron does is to surround him with shooting and guys who can, you know, play credible defense. That's, that's it. That's basically, that's the long and the short of it, right? And so all the complementary pieces, you know, going forward, whether it be getting guys like Channing Fry or even acquiring a J.R. Smith. or, you know, and I mentioned this last night on Green Room, but like, even when Ty Lou was like, we're taking out, we're taking out Kevin Love in the finals in 2016 to play Richard Jefferson

because Jefferson was playing credible defense and could knock down an open jump shot. The thinking was always the same thing, like get guys who can knock down open looks and play some defense around this guy. And that's borne so much freaking fruit in the last 10 years. Like, we've all watched it happen. You know, not even just the championships. Just look at the improbable calves runs where these guys are going to the finals. It was just Browning a bunch of guys in that second Cleveland iteration.

So to go out and get Russ, who is the antithesis of that, he's been bad on defense for years now, can't shoot. Is ball dominant? It takes the ball out of LeBron's hand in order to optimize what he does the best. It becomes a head scratcher. it doesn't have to be this hard. You know, it really doesn't. And I think that's what's kind of confounding about the way the Lakers have navigated

the last couple years in general with some of the rosters they've built with some of the moves that they've made. I just never thought we'd ever see LeBron play with anyone as ball dominant as Westbrook ever again. I thought those days were completely done and we would see different kinds of guards, different kinds of combo guards,

and point guards rotate in and out, and it'd be fine. But this is just a whole different thing. And the shooting and the defense that was nailed, I mean, those are big concerns. And it would be one thing if Westbrook could do one but not the other, but he's bad at both. And to me, it's so much about just the gravitational pull that Westbrook has on every team he plays for.

He forces everyone around him to change. And he's, I think, you know, in Houston especially, I think he was amenable to changing some himself. But in order to do that, the Rockets basically had to make this unprecedented jump to punting on the center position and basically playing Russ as your center. the Lakers already have AD to basically fill that spot. And he doesn't even want to play center. Maybe that's the solution. Play Westbrook at the 5. AD can play the 4.

It's just a strange mind-bending trait. Yeah, if there's a way to rationalize it and you really have to strain to do so, it's that the whole name of the game in all these transactional things that we talk about is to accumulate stars, right? It's that old Darry-Morrele-Mahy thing, the whole goal of tanking and all that other

stuff, all the working the margins in order to get those second round picks is to accumulate stars, because that is what dictates championships. I guess you could look at this roster and say like, Rob, you wrote about this last night for the ringers, just like in those non-Lebron

minutes, Russ can still be Russ. And if even in the midst of everyone bagging on him and him being traded twice in a row and now three times that he did have moments of brilliance that he was like, ultimate Russ on those Houston Rockets teams

without Klinkebella there. And then at the end of this season, he brought the Wizards back into the play in mix. Like there still is a very competent, great player there. I just like, there has to be something we're missing here, that they have shooters lined up,

that buddy healed can still be worked into this deal as a sign-in trade. I don't know. Like, the difficult part about all of this now is like they have four players on the roster and they have to fill out the rest of it and find those shooters. with minimums and the taxpayer's mid-level exception.

Yeah, and another thing, I think to talk about Russ's fit, I think D. Wade is very instructive, specifically the last two seasons that Brown was in Miami, where, you know, he turns into this off-ball threat. A lot of times when he is attacking, he's attacking out of the mid-posts, which Russ has shown himself to be a pretty good post player throughout the course of his career when he's put his mind to it. And, you know, like, there's these ways that really smart and savvy guys can figure out how to be effective even while not being knocked down shooters around LeBron.

The problem is Westbrook has never demonstrated himself to be that. Another thing, you know, and it bears mentioning Westbrook is one of the best transition players in the history of the sport. And that'll be something that he brings to the table. But I think how LeBron is looking at it again. is like, it's not going to be the Russ from OKC. He's going to be able to play off of me. And I think, you know, the irresistible force versus the immovable object, which is every single team

LeBron has ever played on has taken on the character of LeBron. And every single team Russ has ever played on is taking on the character of Russ. And now we're going to put that to the test. But I think, you know, it'll be interesting to see. Because I think LeBron's whole thing is always the same thing. It's like, if I get somebody in here, I'm going to get them on the program.

You know, even Kyrie to a certain extent was on the program. He ended up requesting to trade the Boston eventually. But he was there. Schroeder, same thing, right? Schroeder did not want to get with the program. Right. These guys were on the program. I think Bron, he has confidence that he could get these guys,

Russ Westbrook specifically, to be on the program. Yeah, I mean, I can't wait for Russ to tell LeBron to run with him in transition, to see what LeBron says, because it's the complete opposite. of the way LeBron's career is going. I think the hitch with getting Westbrook on the program is, can we make Russell Westbrook a better cutter or more active cutter? Has been a conversation since OKC. That conversation has not died.

It's only just gone away because people gave up on it. The D-Wade thing is going to come up a lot. And I think it is a really instructive parallel. The difference was even at that time, our buddy Tom Haberstro wrote about this a lot for ESPN.com, even though Dwayne Wade wasn't a good shooter, he had incredible gravity. People would guard him.

People had to pay attention to him because he was such an active off-ball player. Westbrook isn't that. And so while we can paint parallels in terms of some of the skill set, some of the explosiveness, the fact that they do want to go to the basket, all that stuff is absolutely true.

But what they do when they don't have the ball in their hands is totally different. And that's always been Westbrook's crutch. And I hesitate to use the word smart or intelligence, but D-Wade is just a savier player. than Westbrook has ever been. But, and D. Wade had that when he was a freaking kid. You know what I'm saying?

It was also a different time, though. Like, I wonder if we would be guarded way differently now. Yeah. It's fair. You know, and I think, because again, I'm just as down as you guys are on the trade, but if you want to look at it from a rosy sort of way of looking at it, LeBron doesn't want to be ball dominant in the regular season specifically. He, you know, clearly that's why they got guys like,

Rondo and Schroeder in there. And Russ is going to do a lot of the on-ball stuff when LeBron is just straight up, like, I don't feel like doing this. And I think Braun and AD do possess that gravitational pull, right? Like, they will open stuff up for Westbrook because people have to be occupied by those guys when they don't have the ball. And, you know, I think Westbrook, the one thing that he's shown a complete and utter market improvement from the beginning of his career to now is his passing.

He is a way better passer than we ever thought he could be and that he gets credit for even to this day because he's seen as this ridiculous gunner. It's just for me, earlier in the day when I'm hearing they're going to get buddy healed and keep KCP. And then it turns into we're throwing KCP in the deal and not getting healed and it's going to be Westbrook instead.

I think that's what's really bringing this trade down for me. It's like, bro, you were going to surround Bronn and AD picking roles with Heald and KCP, and now you're not. Like, damn. Yeah, it's one thing to empower Westbrook and to take that load off of LeBron, but now you're almost like, what is it the whole thing about spiting your face,

biting your nose of spying your face or whatever it is? I can never get that right. But you're counting on a bunch of minimum guys in order to do that. Like, you're counting on just like, just the bottom of the barrel, probably a lot of veterans looking for lane chase. I mean, I'm hearing an auto porter buzz,

which I think, sure, on a minimum. Yeah, that's fine. I'm hearing Rudy Gay buzz, which again... I love Rudy Gay. I mean, so do I. But again, I think,

look, when you have LeBron and AD, specifically AD on defense, like so much of your defensive problems are so solved that guys don't have to go out and be Miles Bridges, right? Like, the role players don't have to be that great.

They have to be pretty good because you have AD. And then on offense is like, I have LeBron. Like, I'm going to muster, I have LeBron and AD. I'm going to muster decent possessions, kind of no matter who I get out there. So I understand how tantalizing it is to go out and just be like, well, we'll just do it on the minimum market. But Jesus Christ, this is scary.

The biggest winner of this trade is, it's Rob Mahoney. Because in addition to the big three they have here, the only player actually under contract for next season. is Mark Gassal. And so after Andre Drummond, after all these other big men, they tried to put next to LeBron and like, overthinking, Gasol is the one and only. The last man standing. Who can argue with the results?

Right. They could also bring back Caruso and Tht on just using their birdir rights. But they still have to go out and do that. That's the thing is like, for a blockbuster type trade, this is really an opening move much more than a closing move. They have so much work to do in terms of filling out this roster, whether it's Autoporte or Rudy Gay, whoever it is. But if you're those guys, it's not like they're not going to have their own markets.

They're going to get offers from the Nets and from these other high-level teams that are going to be really attractive. And as Justin hit off the top, this is not a super deep free agent market. And so you have to go out and get those guys. You have to compete for Alex Caruso. You have to match whatever Taylor and Horton Tucker gets. And sometimes you get to the end of the line with these things and you're filling out your roster with minimum guys. And you end up with like Justin Jackson and Sender. Thornewell or something.

Like that could be, that could be the end game of some of these roster spots. So I am sympathetic to the idea that there's a lot of work to be done. This could be a very different picture once we get all the shooters in there. But it's just different

when you don't have, you know, a guy like KCP locked into your roster who you know can hit some shots, can chase guys as a defender, can give you a lot of good two-way play. It's hard not having that stuff. Yeah, the ultimate troll move for any franchise,

maybe the Clippers or someone that really wants to stick it the Lakers is to give Tht as much as humanly possible and force the Lakers to match because they do not have any other recourse. I want to talk about the other teams involved in this trade here. And also the Kings because they're kind of in the ripple effects of it. I kind of like what the wizards are doing. Like they don't really hit home runs. They hit more like singles that they could stretch into doubles. But they've done a lot of that since they've changed who's running the organization. I don't particularly love KSMA. KCP is fine.

They didn't get great players, but like Russell Westbrook once again was talked about as this untradable contract, like the millstone that they had to wear around their franchise for however long it goes. And all of a sudden, they're off of it. And their team is like, it's fine. And you're empowering Bradley Beal once again. I guess the question now is like, do you see enough in sort of the studs of this franchise that it could be something with Beal as its go-to guy? Like, was, what do you think? I mean, I watched the last two seasons of the Wizards.

I'm sorry, no, this team is going nowhere fast. I understand that 10th seeds are great for Leonis, and he loves it. I get that. And again, I'm not one of these people who are like, if you're not tanking and trying to accumulate draft picks to get the next KD and LeBron, or you're not the Lakers already or the Nets, then you're doing nothing. I'm not one of those people, right? I admire what the Hawks are doing.

I admire what Phoenix did this year. I admire all of that stuff, right? But at the same time, like, that's not them. They're neither of those things. They're neither solidly in the playoffs, nor are they completely horrible. So this is literally the worst of all worlds. So, no, I don't feel confident that they're going to build some winner based on the bones that exist currently on the roster.

Like, I don't see how you could think that from having watch. these guys play. Well, plus, guys like us can sit here and say, oh, I kind of like how, you know, if we take the skipping step of trading Wall for Westbrook, what they basically got for John Wall in the end is this hall. You know, they basically swapped out first round picks. This is the, you know, what they got for John Wall,

which isn't bad considering where he was in his career. Guys like us can sit here and admire that. Guys like Brad Beale, they don't care. Right. Like, they want to be, they want to be surrounded by really good players. And, you know, to the extent that Beal and Westbrook still wanted to play together, I don't know.

But it's certainly, you know, it's a ding on your franchise to lose a player with that kind of reputation and name, to lose a player with that kind of star power, even if he wasn't getting everything done that you needed to get done. See, Charks talks a lot about how when you're younger, you don't really care as much about winning. You just want to prove yourself and get that max contract.

And sure that like that is in place and you've solidified yourself as an all-star in this league and get that status and whatnot. Before you care about this other thing, I kind of feel like Brad Beale is. taking the reverse where he had some success early on with those wizard teams that made it in the playoffs. And now he's going backwards and being like, no, I actually want to be the harden. It's just based on everything is out here, like, maybe it will change by the time this podcast ends. Like, Beal doesn't want to go. And I almost wonder, like, it goes back to this

idea that like everything is based on the whims of stars. Like, they could just decide whatever they want. And like, I do wonder, like, maybe Brad just like wants to be a guy on a team. that is his goal. I could see it. I don't know. I mean, he did not seem to be taken those losses particularly well early last season. He seems like a guy who has been through it, who badly wants to get back to the other side of getting into the playoffs, being on a competitive team. I don't think he wants to just settle. I think he's trying to push the Wizards in the way he thinks he should as to whether he ultimately stays there long term. I mean, I think they still have a lot even if he gives them this year, they have a lot to prove to him in terms of why he should stay.

Yeah. All of that stuff sounds good, right? When you say it out loud to a reporter or, you know, via email or you're on the phone with somebody or whatever. It sounds good when it comes out of your mouth. But, you know, the other guy who's been hotly in trade rumors this offseason is who? Dame Lillard. He's the one who came out and took that tact about doing it the hard way. loving Oakland and he's going to do it. They're the ones that believed at me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm thinking about a train. Like, this is just what it is. Losing all the time doesn't feel good. No matter how much you want to feel like the man, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. No matter how much you've said, you've chirped, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.

Like even Janus, I love that he banged on the table after he won the championship. Let them had lost to Brooklyn, a hobbled Brooklyn in the second round. Let that had happened like it was really. kind of supposed to. He would have been singing a different tune, right? So, you know, Brad Bill, you can't possibly want to do what he's been doing on the Wizards for the past four years. Like, that can't possibly be your goal as, you know, a star NBA player, playing games. This is New York Forever, Was, singing a very different tune now that he's in L.A. transplant. Now you've seen the light of empowerment of moving across the country and finding your destiny.

Tush. I like it. Touche. Listen, guys, you don't know that Bradley Bill isn't texting his friends all about how hard Tony Gafford rolls to the rim or how Denny Avdiya's cuts are just like brilliantly timed. All right? You haven't seen his emails, man. He's given the benefit of the doubt. Is messing up Daniel Gafford's name now just a kid? It's fucking, Christ, Daniel.

Yeah, I said Justin before. No, it's Tony. Tony, it sounds like more of a, of a Gaffer. I don't know. Let's turn to the King's part of this one. So they still have Buddy Healed And they already had a crowded back court They also drafted Davian Mitchell

In the draft which led to a lot of head scratching from people I guess they are forcing their hand here What do you, Rob, what do you do with Healed here? Do you see like a natural fit for him on another team If you're the Kings, is he a good enough player Where you're just like, well, he shoots really well I actually just want to keep him around I mean I wish you were a little bit more positionally

versatile so that you could play him with some of these smaller guards and feel good about it. But because he isn't a great defender, because he isn't huge in terms of length, he kind of limits what you can do there? He's going to have a market. The question is, can you get him to the teams that need him and do those teams have enough salary to send back? Because like the Sixers would be a perfect trade target. They just don't have the contract filler to make that make sense unless, you know, the Kings eventually get in on like a three-way trade that involves Ben Simmons later or something like that. So I think it could get complicated. I could see the Knicks getting in on him a little later in the summer, you know, if they whiff on some of their

their cap space plans, I could see, I was kind of wondering if the spurs might have interest in Buddy Heald with, you know, some of their longer term prospects, a guy like Devin Vassell, for example, if you could sell the Kings on, hey, here's the small forage you don't have, you know, that could plug in to be a part of your long-term core? Could that be interesting to them? I don't know. But Healed is tough because he is very attractive in terms of skill set. everyone can use a shooter of his caliber. But can you make room for a $22 million salary? That's a different question.

Yeah, you know, the team that immediately came to my mind was Dallas. And that's because, you know, Tim Hardaway Jr's contract is up. Who knows what direction that goes, right? Like, that could get pretty, like, I think he's a bellwether for the market because that can get pretty crazy. Like, it's not impossible to think that he might think, hey, four years, $100 million, what the fuck? Look at what I did in the playoffs last year.

I'm solidly a starting caliber two guard in this league. I'm an elite shooter. My thing is, you know, he doesn't have any on-ball stuff. But neither does Buddy Heald. You know, like, Buddy Heald is not really a shot creator. He's kind of just catching shoot. Like, he does. Don't get it twisted.

He does take shots off the dribble. He's just not very good at it. Well, we can happily report. He can actually dribble. a little bit now. A little bit. He is elevated to a little bit of dribbling and passing, which we'll take it. But he is elite as the shot maker, which I think like applies to virtually every team in the league. He isn't an ideal fit for some teams, but I'm just like thinking about like the teams that could use him. I'm like literally every team needs a 40% three point shooter. So I don't know,

I think it's the type of thing where like if you're the Kings, maybe you should take note that of that fact that he is such a modern player that a lot of. teams would want and think to yourself like maybe I could find a fit for him somewhere. Or maybe there might not be a rush. You know, like that doesn't necessarily have to happen right now. Maybe that's a move that comes closer to the deadline when someone's needs are a little bit more apparent. But also when you're the Kings and you're the Knicks East, like, what are you doing right now? What is your team, right?

Like, for instance, you know, we bring a Phoenix. We kind of know Phoenix's offseason is like, we're trying to bring back Chris Paul. We're trying to get better. We just came from the final. Like, there's a clear idea about who they are, Utah, you go down the line. Even I would say on the different end of the spectrum, Memphis, who's like, we're not in a rush to get way better. We're nowhere close to anything that's going to matter in this league.

We don't mind gaining an asset so that we could take a step back in talent because we're not there yet. Like, these are teams who know exactly who they are. Who the fuck are the king? They just keep compounding the issue they already had, which is that they're back. court is crowded, right? But I will say, we have a Davion Mitchell fan in the midst here, and we have to pay some bills. So I think this is a good time to pivot. Guys, do you know how some folks are quick to doubt the rookies or even understate their

excellence coming into the league? Make no mistake, this is their time to shine and show out with career-defining moves on that court. Was, you liked one particular overlooked rookie in this draft class. Who is it? Yeah, I think it's got to be Davian Mitchell. I think, on talent, he was one of the top seven or six guys probably, right? Just on talent. But because of his age, I think people were scared of him. But to me, he's not one of these older players where in college he stuck around and outskilled and outsmarted people. This guy is elite athletically. To me, he's a swooped up Patrick Beverly in his final form. And that's an extremely valuable NBA player. So to me, he's the most slept on rookie. And I don't just say that

because he gave us the exclusive interview on full court fits. Go check that out on YouTube at the ring his YouTube page. Sure. Well, that's a wrap, my friends. And just like these rookies won on the court, you could win with your insurance by getting the personalized service of a local agent, all for a surprisingly great rate with State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, Wads brought up Chris Paul before. And I do think that not only is he interesting because he is technically a free agent or he can opt out of his contract and become a free agent. But you do hear now around the league that the Chris Paul effect is something that teams, I think, are starting to want to replicate. Rob, do you think that's like a model that teams should be following or is this the classic case of this is on trend and people are going to try to jump on it?

Yeah, I mean, you hear a lot of this going around. But I think it's a model in the sense that a high-level veteran guard can help iron out the kinks of your team. there's no question about that. Is it replicable in the way that like a borderline playoff team can go to the NBA finals? Obviously not. And that's where there's just a gulf between those two things, between can this guy get us to competence?

Can he get us to like game to game organization? And can he get us deep in the playoffs? Those are incredibly different goals that an organization would aim for. And let's not forget, like Chris Paul was an all NBA player. All NBA player and a clear Hall of Famer long before that to take like a fringe All-Star guys. like a Lowry or a Conley

who are both great players, but they're just not on that level. They're not doing for you what Chris Paul does. Yeah, you know, that would be like me becoming a GM one day and being like, you know what, I want to replicate the LeBron James effect. Yeah, get LeBron

James, have top free agents want to flock to my team, force trades to my team, yeah, I want to replicate that. The problem with the Chris Paul effect is that you need Chris Paul for it. And so, like, this idea idea that if you say, oh, I don't know, David Griffin, who's my man, right? We love, we love Griff. Expert media personality. He's had a rough time so far in New Orleans.

But like, I think that's the reason we're bringing up this conversation because they clearly cleared up, went out of their way to clear up all that cab space because they think it's an imperative that they make their team way better fast. And they think they're going to be able to do that via some veteran free agent signing, all likelihood, probably a point guard in the mold of Kyle Lowry or Mike Connolly or maybe in their wildest dreams, Chris Paul. I just, that just seems so foolhardy to me. Look, and Phoenix fans, close your ears. They beat a bunch of teams that were hurt, like badly hurt. I love how gently you said that.

They beat a bunch of teams that were badly hurt. So the idea that you would see that and think, yo, we're so close to being what the sons were before they got Chris Paul. Like, we're basically the equivalent of that. And by the way, I don't think at any point in Zion's tenure there in New Orleans, has New Orleans been as good as that bubble team we watch Phoenix be? At no point have they shown that. There's proof of concept in Phoenix.

Exactly. Even if you want to say that was an eight-game sample, New Orleans has not been that at any freaking point since Zion has been there. I'm just really confused. And again, I think we've said this too. Griff has had, he has to have some credible intel that says Zion is antsy. Because if not, I don't understand this. Boy, you got a terrible body, ridiculous knees.

You better pray we give you a max contract after your fourth season. Brother, are you kidding me? I think the entire league has intel that Zion is unhappy. Like, I don't think it's a coincidence that I wrote something. Brian Winhorst wrote something. Zach Lowe said something. And every other reporter is kind of insinuating that Zion is unhappy. Like, these things aren't like coming out of nowhere.

Like, these are real issues that they're facing. That's where you get to the real Chris Paul effect, which is not that they got to the finals, which is not that they're now, you know, a contender who we have to take seriously. Yeah. Devin Booker is in a completely. different state of mind. There is a psychic value to making the life

of your great young player that much easier to where they look out on the court and they don't dread the guys they're playing with. That is incredibly valuable. So if that's what Kyle Lowry or Mike Conley can get you, that's worth whatever you're going to pay. I can't believe Zion didn't like Stephen Adams clogging up his

paint and bricking layups. That's crazy. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think GMs like it too because it does almost like rationalize everything else they did or at least clean up everything else they did. Like if you're feeling pressure like Griffin is in New Orleans, you could import a Kyle Lowry, make the playoffs and all of a sudden like,

oh, I could focus on these other things because I bought myself some more time here. But it's not just Lowry to the Pelicans that I think is what people are talking about. That's the most, it's the clearest one-to-one example of the Chris Paul effect. I do think you're starting to hear other teams circle Lowry. I mean, Philly is the prime example, but Dallas is another team that is clearly on a different level.

than New Orleans, but I think it was John Hollinger said, like, they're going to chase Kauai, and when that doesn't happen, because Kauai is assumed to come back to the Clippers, they're going to pivot to Lowry. I think that's maybe an in-between of both things that we're talking about. Like, it makes some sense. I don't love

giving long-term money to a 35-year-old point guard who's taken 30 million charges at this point. But, you know, getting an adult in the room with Luca to play off of them, that I think is actually not a bad idea. A lot of it depends on just how your cap situation breaks out,

like when guys' extensions are due and when you have to pay them and all that stuff. Because there's sometimes when paying a veteran just doesn't matter that much. It doesn't hurt you to give Kyle Lari a couple years at a big number. And so, again, the value of putting Luca Dantzic on a court with someone he trusts,

knowing he can give the ball up and get it back. Like, those things matter. And we saw that in the playoffs with him where every time he didn't have the ball in his hands, you just weren't sure if you could trust Jalen Brunson to complete the plays he needed to complete. or if Tim Hardaway Jr. was having one of his off nights, where else are we going to go here?

That's an incredibly valuable thing. Yeah, look, I think to me, how valuable is it? To me, in the postseason, right, LeBron and Luca and these guys who are very heliocentric players are going to shoulder that burden. Like, Luca's not going to be like, all right, Kyle, we're going to share postseason possessions as far as table setting and setting up the team. Ultimately, it's going to be on those guys. That's why I question the Westbrook move.

That's why I question, like, is Lowry the thing that ultimately is needed when I watch Dorian Finney Smith and, you know, Powell and all of these guys, Cleba, all of these guys brick wide open jump shots in playoff settings, right? Like, I watched their wing situation not be good. But again, the wing is the most valuable commodity in all of NBA basketball. So maybe the pivot is to do that. I just wonder how much this matters. But, you know, to echo what Rob just said,

if the psychic value is that Luca just feels free and he feels like, you know, he feels more uninhibited by having a guy who can just throw the ball to now and organize and professionalize everything without Luca having to lift a finger, maybe, not even maybe. That's definitely worth the cost.

There's just such a fine line between, if you're a guy like Luca or LeBron, or again, one of these heliocentric guys between being the person who wants to create everything and feeling like I have to do everything. And you want to walk that line or ideally get as far away from that extreme of it as possible. Like I distinctly can remember possessions

when LeBron was in Cleveland or his first season with the Lakers, with the baby Lakers, where he would start pointing at people, he would throw... Like, it wouldn't even be a past. He just like shove it over, untuck his jersey. And you can tell he was just disgusted.

Like, I'm giving y'all, go ahead. Go ahead. Do something. Right. Like that, and you could tell by year two, he was no longer doing that. Right? Like, he felt like he had guys around him who he could count on and he could trust. And there is something to that mattering and the value of that.

Because that first baby Lakers season, like there was a lot of Laplace. brawn tossing the ball not moving, pouting in a corner. It happened all the time. It's a great segue though, because I did want to talk about Lonzo Ball, kind of the other side of this Pelicans pursuit of Kyle Lowry. Much like we were talking about with Buddy Hill,

it seems like every team in the NBA is rumored to have interest in Lonzo Ball, which if I was the Pelicans, I would maybe think about that a little bit harder. But it does seem like just based on rumblings and there's a Rich Paul interview where he gave a pretty pointed response to Chris Haynes that like, you know, we're looking at all of our options. It does seem like he'll probably end up elsewhere. My first question, Rob, is,

are we Lonzo Ball Optimist now? I don't really, I can never really get the sense of where I land with Lonzo because he had a good season last year, but it took a while to get there. I think contextually, yes. You know, if you can get him in the right spots, if you have him in the right structure, absolutely. So some of these options make a lot more sense to me than others.

Like we've been talking about the Bulls ever since the trade deadline. That just makes so much sense to me, especially in a post-Nikovitchvich world. You know, you have a playmaking big who can do some of the half-court stuff, who can let Lonzo play off the ball. That makes a lot of sense. Let him be a transition player running with Zach Levine. I like that. But then I go back and forth on, like, he's been linked to the Pacers.

Is Lonzo Ball a Rick Carlisle player? I, you know, he's definitely, he's definitely savvy enough and quick enough to be in that kind of like flow style offense. Like he makes sense for that, but I think he would probably great against some of the structure that Carlisle likes. Like, I can't quite settle on that.

And that's kind of the question for every team, for every coach, for every front office. Does he fit our personnel? Does he fit our personalities and the way we want to play? Because Lonzo's a very particular kind of taste. You know, the reason why I'm such a big Lonzo guy

is because I think he just has a mind and an aptitude for understanding the game that is just, It's at a very high level, right? And I think some of the stuff that he was bad at, the shooting is one thing, which he's clearly shown at volume last year that he's a way better shooter than he was. So I'm like, all right, he's checked that box. I think some of the stuff that he struggled with was when and where to be aggressive, when

to place the ball in Lons, excuse me, in Zion's hand or picking rolls, like when to dump it off, like the timing of that. And that's why I'm worried that he's going to leave because he was figuring that stuff out. I think the stuff that we complained about with Lonzo was his lack of aggression on the ball, like where he just wouldn't take it to the rack, or he wouldn't just pull up for a quick jumper while he was wide open, or he wouldn't just do these things. I think the more that he plays with the guys around him, the more that he figures out which plays makes sense to make and when. If he goes to a new team, he's going to have to relearn that

all over again. And, you know, that kind of sucks. But I'm high on Lonzo because I just think he can figure it out no matter what it is. And he's gotten himself skill-wise to a point where there's no glaring holes in his game anymore. And somebody that smart, that's a dude that I want on my team, man. And we've gone through so many cycles with him because he was a number two pick, because he played for the Lakers. He's 23 years old. So I'm with Waz. If I'm a team and I feel even okay about my roster situation around him, I'm betting on the brain.

You know where he would be best back with the Lakers? Lakers, I was just I'm going to see that. Right? Because he could run the offense when LeBron isn't on the corp and he's shooting.

I'm a little more, I want to see a second really good season of three-point shooting to really believe it, but like so far or seen, I'm optimistic.

Him and him and Caruso playing with LeBron and AD. Just run it back, yeah. Oh, that would be great. We've got two really good

three-point shooting seasons from him now. Yeah. Two in a row. pretty high volume. I think it's pretty legit. Me too. The first one wasn't super high volume, though. Six attempts a game from three,

37 and a half percent? That's pretty pretty good, Justin. All right, okay, Lonzo. Okay. We're winning over hearts and minds here on group chat today. Yeah, I'm in the bag for Lonzo. I just always have been. Real come up

for the ball brothers. They were at the bottom and now everyone seems to be back in on them. So, in addition to Lonzo, though, I wasn't aware of this until I really started digging into this. There are a million point guards on this market. Let me just run through a list of the more prominent ones. Spencer Dinwiddie. Kemble Walker seems to be highly available in a trade. Malcolm Brogden, same thing. Dennis Schroeder is most likely going to be an unrestricted free agent. Goren Drogh, Derek Rose, campaign, Reggie Jackson, Devante Graham, Colin Sexton is out there.

There's just so many freaking point guards out there. I'm just curious, like, well, let me ask this why. Like, is there one of those guys from this, let's call it the B tier of guys, that jumps out to you as someone you would be keying in on? Because you do have options. Probably Spencer Dinwiddie, injury and all. I just think people don't, I don't think the perception of how good he is matches what he actually does out on the floor.

So I think he's going to be relatively. affordable compared to the production that he's going to give. And he is, to me, capable of being a lead dog point guard for anybody. I just think the world of that guy, it sucks that he got injured again. But I think, man, if he could come back reasonably healthy from that knee, that's the guy to me. Not that I don't love Mike Conley, but I think he's found something in Utah. I think they're willing to pay him.

Mike Conley's my second favorite of those. But it's Dinwiddie to me because he's still pretty young. And he's just a really good player. Robert, you're a Dinwiddie pro guy? Sure. Especially as a guy who can fit with a lot of other guards. He just has that kind of give and take to his game where even though he isn't a dead eye shooter,

he's flexible enough, he moves well enough. I think he could fit in a lot of different backcords. He can come off your bench for you, if that's what your situation needs to be. there's just a lot of give to his skill set. So I do like that about him a lot. You really like his endeavors and the cryptocurrency ranks. You're a big Bitcoin guy.

I do think Kimball Walker is interesting because, and we said this at the time, like the Celtics kind of dumped him in order to move on and start fresh. And OKC was probably looking at him as like, ooh, this could be our new Danny Green where like you jumped a little early and we'll just get the asset that you could have gotten out of him. I don't know. He strikes me as someone that it really comes down to, the medicals with him.

But if you're optimistic on that end, it's not a bad bet to buy low and hope that he could be just like Danny Green, that people were underestimating him and then he actually had more to him. I mean, if the Pelican just completely strike out, like maybe that's, you go with him

because maybe he'll have fewer years at big money on his contract rather than Lowry. I don't know. He's interesting to me. And of course, I always want to see our Yukon brother and do well. See, this is where I start talking myself into Russell Westbrook.

because there was a lot of connection in the rumor mill between the Lakers and, like, could they get Kemba now that he's available? And if you're looking at those two options, you can start to see the appeal of someone like Russ. And I'd wager that's the case against a lot of this group that we just outlined where, you know, a lot of guys who can do one or two things well, who may be a defensive liability or maybe not, I think in Kemba's case, just given his size and especially with his injury history, I think he's definitely on that side of things right now. you know, you can start to see the appeal of someone like Russ who, again, provided he's healthy, can just give you more stuff. You know, there's always something to that. You got to want the guy that's going to actually play. And, you know, the reason, like, because what I was about to say was,

if Kim is healthy, I'd rather him than Russ. That's not even a freaking question, right? But the reason why he's available is that he's not healthy. You know, like, so that kind of answers your own question there. Like, he's just not going to be available. It seems like we're at the point in no return with his knee. Because it's been two years now with this. This isn't just one season.

It's two years now where his knee has just been acting up. And so, yeah, while Kimber, you know, New York City guy, obviously I'll be rooting for him until the day he no longer picks up a basketball. But last season to me was just, it just said it all. He couldn't stay on the floor. And even when he did play, he was just a shell of himself. Right. Well, all right. Let's pivot here to some of the bigger names in the market. I feel like we've already talked a lot about these. So I'm considering this the already over-disscussed Star Lightning Round portion of this podcast. So we could move kind of quickly here. First with Kauai. So Lawrence Frank kind of addressed the media yesterday and commented out in Kauai for the first time, basically gave a nothing answer. And we're just like, we're focused on his health. We're excited to have him back if he's wants to come back. we'll see

yada yada um is anybody worried about kauai it does seem like that's the one thing I should mention that he could miss most of next season it sounds like they probably want to take their time with this one um robert are you worried at all that kawai might pull

a fast one and go elsewhere why would I be worried about that follow your heart kawai I'm good I'm just whatever you want you guys just have a bond right you're both from Texas or you spent a lot of time in Texas He is not from Texas

But we overlap It counts Right Yeah You guys are best friends You were within the same Like 100 mile radius Waz what do you think?

I don't want to be conspiratorial Oh I like this However When they did that thing In the summer of 2019 To Mortgage their future for Paul George And bring Kauai Leonard in

I think there was an understanding that the guy was going to be there long term. Period. I thought you were going to tell me he wants to go to the Pacers or something. No, no, no, no. I think there's a wink and a nod. Like, I'm coming, I'm staying here after this one deal that we signed. If you guys are making trades into 2025 to get the guy that I handpicked to get in here,

I'm going to be here when those picks, et cetera, et cetera, convey. So I think there's an understanding. I know that's illegal in the NBA. It would never happen. It could never happen. No one's ever done it before. Right. So I think it was Paul George, that extension was agreed upon before they traded for him.

The extension he signed last summer. And Kauai resigning with these cats this summer was already agreed upon two years ago. I don't think Kauai Leonard is going to leave, you know, the San Diego obsession. the all of it. The way he moved heaven and earth to get here, it just seems I don't, I don't, I don't think that's happening for all the reasons I just said. It's never happened before with a star player, definitely going home and forcing a bunch of transactions and not giving any commitments long term, right? I mean, but that, you know, you know, that player also didn't have the fan base call his mother

a whore, throw batteries at him. What did Dan Gilbert say in that ridiculous comic sands letter? He called him a traitor and this. It's convincing. Yeah. I think there's a different relationship between Balmer, Uncle Dennis, Kauai, and LeBron and Dan Gilbert. Okay.

Let's move to our next star here. Ben Simmons, seemed like there was some momentum going into the draft. And then it completely fell flat. I'm sure that has nothing to do with, you know, certain Philadelphia people maybe wanting to drive up a market going into the draft. Here's my question. This is, we'll call this the Ben Simmons death pool, which just a name. I'll just say that. When do we see a Ben Simmons deal?

I guess do you think we'll see a Ben Simmons deal before the season and if not when? Was, what do you think? I don't think a deal is close because of the deals that were leaked already, like the Ben Simmons Golden State deal. that got leaked, that shows me more he's not serious right now. If he's, if that's what his demands are for the dude that stunk up the joint, a few weeks ago, like completely and utterly stunk up the joint, the dude, by the way, who's not talking to y'all. So y'all don't, like, y'all can bring him back,

but it's going to be completely toxic after one, Joe L. Embed completely threw him under the bus. I think he's still, uh, Simmons is still recovering from them damn tired tracks. And two, Simmons is clearly demonstrated. He's clearly told y'all, I don't want to fuck with you no more. So this idea that you want to ask for the bank while everybody knows that Simmons is off of you and done, it shows me that Mori is like, I'm chilling right now.

I'm not serious about these deals. That's all that says to me. I think it's toxic enough that they're obviously going to trade him, but not so toxic that they're going to trade him this offseason. I think it's going to be kind of a Jimmy Butler in Minnesota type deal. He's going to come back. He's going to play a couple games half-heartedly. Maybe he gets traded like late November, early December, or something like that.

So when we see Rachel Nichols at the Sixers compound, that's what we'll know. See, the problem with that is the problem with that as a strategy is the first time this dude doesn't take a wide open shot or bricks two free throws in a row in Philly's building. That's a fucking problem. Those people are going to have problems with him. So this idea that Mori could be like, oh, we'll just try them out there. You trust that this dude is going to be in the headspace to play in such a way that teams want him in that building. And with Joel, please, I don't know what in Ben Simmons's makeup would suggest that this guy is just going to have the fortitude to come in and be a soldier about this. Like the second he passes up an open freaking six foot floater to pass it way out to 30 feet again.

It's all hell is going to break loose in there. Yeah, there's probably enough people or enough executives that can convince themselves that Ben Simmons despite his playoff struggles. It's still a type of guy you could build something around or you could be your two or your three or whatever. I'm not so sure that's the case when he's just getting lamb-based by the- If he starts next season on the exact same note that he ended off this one, His trade value is going, like, whatever, Maury, do what you do. All right, and this next one is connected. Does Dean Miller need to be more careful?

Yo. Had an interesting discussion with our friend Henry Abbott the other day. I was, I don't know if it was on purpose, but I had missed the whole thing. I feel like Dame has been completely, like, reasonable and pretty up front as up front as you could be as a superstar that clearly like wants things to change, whether it's just the makeup of his team or where he is playing. But like seems like he's been pretty stand up for the most part. Look, this is, this is something that we got to explain to people in our profession who are listening and don't work in our profession, right? We know, we all know the four of us,

no, or three of us, sorry, no Henry. Isaiah knows. Right. No Henry pretty well. And Henry, would not trot this out there if he hadn't spoken to somebody and did the work to figure out that this claim was very credible, right? That being said,

Dame could also be like I might do it, I might not. Right, yes. That's where we're at right now. And to me, that doesn't make anybody look bad or good. It just is. This is the nature of human beings. We change our minds sometimes, right? Like my favorite Kanye album used to be late

registration. Now I think it's Watch the Throne. I don't know. I change my mind all the time about things. Let's not go that far. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know where this leaves us with Dame, but I do wonder if this in the Ben thing are connected where it's like, if you're Philly, why not wait to see what happens with Dame before settling for a CJ? It doesn't seem like there's a destination for Dame is my only concern here. Like if it's not Philly, who jumps in here? Could it be a curveball team? Like, I don't know, Houston. I'm just throwing that off the top of my head. A lot of the contenders that want to take that next step that are in a market that might be interesting to Dame. Yeah, the Knicks are really the only obvious candidate. They're not

contenders, but I think if you're Dame and you want to be a new. You want to be a new obvious candidate. They're not contenders, but I think if you're deem and you want to leave and you want to start somewhere where you have confidence that there's going to be an ability to get the types of people in your building that you need. I think the end, you know, it's like you're leaving Portland for, like, you're really changing things up. You know, like you're leaving Portland, which is, you know, shout's to Portland. Great city from what I hear. great food, great coffee, great microbreweries.

Never been. Great beards. I heard it's great. You're describing me now, thanks. But New York City, it ain't, you know, in so many different ways. And I think the Knicks are attractive to Dane. I do. I just think, again, Portland has never been nobody's idea of a free agent destination.

you know, the type of place that you can get competent veteran minimum guys to take discounts and all of that stuff to go. Like, I think it's just got more resources at the disposal of a Dame Lillard, right? And so for all those reasons, I just mentioned, while they're not a ready-made contender, like Philly would be, to me, up there with any championship team, the minute freaking Dame stepped on that freaking in that building. They're right there with the Lakers, with Brooklyn, with whoever you want to name, as soon as Dame gets it. I won't be the case with the Knicks, but I think the chance to become something that matters is definitely higher than it is right now important.

When the whole James Harden situation for the Sixers, when they tried to trade for him last season, I think has, you know, between that and Ben Simmons has kind of pushed that franchise along in terms of its sense of urgency. Where if there were any kind of roadblocks for the Sixers in putting in more stuff, more picks, more swaps, more whatever, to try to swing for Dame, I think those are bridges that can be crossed ultimately, even though right now they're asking for the world for Ben Simmons. All right. Let's pivot to more big picture questions. Let's use our imagination here. The NBA is our canvas, and we're just looking for answers here. Which non-obvious team faces the most intriguing off season? Rob, the artist among us, please. What is your answer? What an intro.

For me, it's the Nets. And we talked about the Spencer Dinwiddie of it all. Maybe he's already gone. Maybe they're bringing him back. Maybe he's a sign and trade candidate. I don't know. So there's that intrigue. There's the slew of supporting cast guys who are now free agents for them,

Jeff Green, Blake Griffin, Bruce Brown, who all would be deserving of more money if they wanted to chase that elsewhere. But the big question, can you get anything done on an extension for Katie Hardin and Kyrie Irving before the extension deadline. And do those guys even want extensions? Because if you can lock them in, you give yourself just a different level of security as a franchise that puts you in a different place.

Otherwise, you're kind of banking on them wanting to come back for their option years and kind of dealing with the whims of those three guys all at once. That's a lot of instability for a franchise. Yeah, I like that answer. And the reason why it's interesting, because I think the point of being, I think LeBron has shown everybody,

that the point of being a big dog is that you don't do long extensions because you don't have to. Is that that's the only way to retain any sort of autonomy and power in this league as a superstar is that you don't do extensions. So, you know,

I think when LeBron signed his extension with the Lakers, it was a capitulation of like, yo, I'm probably 50. Like, I need to, let me lock this in. It's, you know, it's a nod to his own. mortality. I think those guys in Brooklyn, you know, they're not lacking for self-confidence and self-importance, right? So the idea that they would rush into an extension with the Nets doesn't job at what we know about them and what we've heard, what reports we've heard

about them exercising power. Like the whole point of them being over there is to exercise the power that they've accrued. So I, you know, I don't see that happening. I'm still, you You know, and maybe this is obvious, but I'm still fascinated by what Dallas does. I have a question, too, because this is important to me. Is Lucas Boy still on the staff? Do we know? Which guy?

Dirk? No, the assistant coach guy that he's cool with. Oh, Jamal Mosley? No, he's the Magic coach now. Yeah, new head coach of the Rilano Magic. But they did just bring in his Lovina national team coach, Igor Kokoskov, our old friend. Maybe a new guy on the staff.

The reason why, Jesus, man, the reason why I bring that up is because we have all this palace intrigue in Dallas about Luca and Rick and all of that stuff. And they're talking about the freaking front office guys and all of that. And nobody at any point talked about the dude who's on Carlisle's staff who's best friends with Luca. who would be, by the way, who was a coaching candidate for Carlisle's job, which after he left, he recommended Jason Kidd in public and not a dude that was on his staff.

That was weird. I noticed that. You know what I mean? So I'm very curious as to how that, because those things are still unfolding, right? Like we talked about Hardaway, we talked about Lowry, we talked about they still have

to form the staff and there's this sort of bloodbath that happened in there and we got to see how the dust settled. I'm watching them with a very close eye as to how this thing all shakes out. And my bad magic fans, I didn't notice that your team hired a coach because I never noticed anything that you guys do. To be fair, I had to look it up like yesterday because I couldn't, I literally could not remember. I'm like, is it still Jacques Vaughn? Just like, no. Is it still Jock Vaughn? Just like, no. Is it still Jacques. Yeah. Come on.

Come on. No, I remember Steve Clifford. Come on. No, I think Dallas is also interesting because the team I have on my list is Miami and they're in a similar boat where they're in that post-Yannis survival mode where they made all of those decisions. It seemed like in order to clear the space to Beck and Janus away from Milwaukee. And now they're kind of stuck trying to fill the void in a large part, like filling

cap space with multiple players. but when they really need a star. So I'm with you, Watts. I think it's interesting. I mean, Lowry makes some sense for me for Dallas. But in Miami, I'm confused. I don't think there's a clear answer here. I think they could just run everything back,

overpay all of the guys that they have available, and just say, COVID-struck. We were hurt by it probably more than any other team. We have BAM progressing at light speed. Duncan Robinson. He's probably going to cost Joe Harris, if not more money on the restrictive free agent market, but he is one of these guys like Buddy Heald, who

will just knock down any damn shot you give it to him. But is that enough? Like Rob, if they just roll things back, Victoril Depot, who knows, but Igu Dekw has a team option. Kendrick Nunn has a restrictive free agent. Drogick has a team option. If they just bring most of that back, are they

in the next tier after the Nets? Are they good enough to compete with those teams? What do you think? I'm of two minds about it just because the last time that they overpaid everyone to run it back was how we got James Johnson and Dionne Waiters and Kelly O'Lennick getting huge paydays. That didn't go so great. Great point. But, I mean, this team needs, it needs a little more juice.

They're just not there, especially now that the nets are kind of ascendant in a different way that the bucks have figured some stuff out. We'll see what happens with the Sixers and where they land in that conversation. But I think the heat have some work to do. And I think they put a lot of stock in the idea that Tyler Hero could be a very important player for them. He's just not looking like that kind of prospect right now. Maybe that corrects. Maybe he finds his game again.

Maybe they ultimately end up trading him or something. I don't know. But I think there are moves to be made here. They have to flex out on some of these guys. And they're probably going to have to just take a gamble on a guy like Oladipo because they do have his bird rights. He's kind of an upside candidate for them if he's able to stay even remotely healthy. but the core that they had, the core that took them to the 2020 finals, it needs some renovation. Was, what do you think about Ola Depot on the Knicks is kind of like in this new prudent era where they're trading all the way back in the draft and not like just completely going for I need this answer now type of Nick?

Do you take a risk by low? Maybe rehab his value do something similar that you did with Julius Randall and just hope for the best. Does that intrigue at all? The problem with the rehab and the guy's value is Julius Randall never looked like a shell of himself, right? Because of injuries. Physically, you know, I'm a depot guy as far as not just his game, the kind of quality of character that he is. He's just, he's upbeat, he plays hard. He uplifts his teammates. He's a selfless guy, right? He's what you want an NBA player to be.

And that goes from role player to superstar, you name it. I'm a fan of Oladipo and just, you know, the type of guy that he is, quite frankly. But watching him has been tough. He's just not there physically. And, you know, that first season in Indiana, we all remember it. It was revelatory, you know, like he improved his jump shot while nobody could still stay in front of him. He was a high motor guy. You know, he was just like this exciting dude to watch,

and he's just so divorced from that. Now, I don't need, and put him in the Tibbs system where he's going to play 50 minutes a game. I don't think the Knicks are a fit as much as I love Ola Dibu, and I would love to see him restore himself to the level that he was, man, before the kneecap situation. The Knicks are another team, though, where it's like, can they bring all their guys back?

Can they pay Nerlands Noel and Alec Burks and all these guys who are really important to their team? I don't even know if they can hold on to what they have. Yeah, I guess the beauty of the next situation is they did kind of elevate a lot of those guys and you wonder maybe they could have similar success. I do think, like, Old Depot would be an example of this. And he does seem like a Tibbs guy, like even though he might just completely run himself out of the league. He's a grinder.

I don't know Tibbs loves his grinders. Not necessarily the sandwiches, but. You know what I mean? Lowry, I should mention, is a Miami destination that people are talking about. What do we think about the fit there? Is like a Jimmy Butler's older than the rest of the timeline. We should probably be thinking when now. Do you think Lowry Butler, say they bring back Robinson, bam, that's like, it's enough?

Yeah, I think Lowry is probably better than whatever Goren Drogic is at this point. and culturally he is a match made in heaven for Miami. Like, that's obvious that he makes sense for them culturally. I don't know that he's moving a needle for them in that way. But I think that's a really fun team to watch. Hell yeah. Him, Jimmy, Duncan Robinson, bam, even Tyler Hero, who I haven't completely given up on.

I think that's a damn fun team to watch. I don't know that that puts them in the stratosphere of Brooklyn and Milwaukee who just, they trounce them. They just completely destroyed these guys. So I don't think Lowry alone does enough to put them over that top. Yeah, I think that's the lesson here for both the heat and a lot of these Eastern Conference teams is it's going to take a lot to catch up to Brooklyn and Milwaukee at this point.

Yep. All right. Let's go real deep cut here. We talked about some of the bigger stars in the market, but the bargain bin guys, the guys that we look on the sheets that every website is running about, like, these are the best guys at their position, talking about the guys in the middle who we think, oh, they just need to be in the right spot and they'll be a lot better than they have been. Was, does anyone jump out to you?

I mean, to me, to me, again, it's Dinwiddie. I'm just really, I'm really a fan of his. I think he's going to go somewhere. And if it breaks right, he's going to surprise a lot of people with how. much he elevates what that team does. I think the context of Brooklyn, like, because he's played incredibly well, and he's done it in a diverse manner,

but, like, that team that was, you know, Kyrie in and out of the lineup, KD was still rehabbing the Achilles. Like, people were like, oh, okay, that's a cute unit. The team before Kyrie got there, they're like, oh, that's our cute story. Like, you know, they, coming out of the crazy KG,

Paul Pearson, all of that, like this is a cute thing, but I don't think people were really paying attention to the level of production that he had. Then while he played the little bit of time that he got to play with all of the stars, like he showed that he's willing to slot himself in to different kinds of roles. So I am definitely paying attention to where Dinwiddie finds himself. And also, too, I think he's one of those players who's smart enough to know where he slots in to optimally. I think he's self-conscious enough about his game to be savvy in the team.

that he chooses in the situation that he puts himself in. I mean, the guy was selling Bitcoin for price. He might have something to say about the bargain aspect of this. I think he's going to be gunning for that big money. Yeah, he's the real Ethereum here. But he is kind of a nice fallback option for some of these teams that don't win the Lowry Derby. Like, if he lands on the Pelicans, if he lands on Dallas, all the teams that we mentioned for Lowry, it's like, it's a nice, yeah, and he fits their timeline a little bit more.

he's like he would be a fine plug and play type of guy. Rob, who do you have on your list? I mean, I can't believe this guy has already been mentioned on this podcast, but Otto Porter Jr. is every team's dream minimum or biennual exception guy right now. Jay Michael at the Indy Star reported today that Porter's been out there looking for the MLE, like seeing the canvassing the market, see if that's going to be available to him. It doesn't seem like that's going to be his market.

It seems like it's going to be somewhere below that, which puts a lot of teams, like we talked about the Warriors, earlier or the Lakers earlier, you know, seems like that could be in the running for a guy like Otto Porter Jr. who's, you know, flexible big or flexible forward wing who can do some passing for you, who can do some shooting for you, kind of a do everything game. Again, do everything at a moderate expectation level. But it could be useful to a lot of teams.

And, you know, I also have to admit, you know, I'm a Garrett Temple guy personally. Garrett Temple, another minimum salary guy who could be available. Sure. An adult to have in your locker room, a calming presence on the court who can help a team along. The Bulls were a winning team when he was on the floor last season. That's kind of an achievement in itself. So he's another guy I would look at for the minimum. I've been to Garrett Temple guy since he put J.J. Reddick in a straight jacket and won me my NCAA pool. Love you, Jay. Man, Temple on the Bulls, and I think Porter was finished with

the magic. Is that right? Yeah, he was in that window Carter Jr. trade. I just like, you could have told me anything and I wouldn't have known. Like, So what type of player is Porter at this point? Because I'll be honest, I didn't watch a ton of them because he tended to play on teams that were completely off the radar. I mean, needless to say, he has been humbled by his experience over the last couple of years in the NBA. So I think he's much more of a, I'm trying to think of a good comp for him, kind of a rate. I mean, Rudy Gay is honestly a pretty good template in terms of a guy who once had delusions of, you know, maybe I can be this kind of player. It never really worked out for this reason or that.

Then settles in as kind of like a stretch for occasional. three, you know, gives you a little bit more length, a little more presence in that regard, but knows how to read the floor, knows how to understand where he should be, how to make, you know, good swing passes, stuff like that, just like a good, a good glue guy kind of at the combo forward spot. Which brings me to my pick, which is one Rudy Gay, Wads mentioned him up top. Fifteen seasons in the league, I believe he's played more seasons than playoff games because he spent his entire career on the likes of the bad Grizzly. the bad raptors, the always bad kings, and the spurs when they were at their lowest of, what,

past two decades or so. But you're right, Rob. For all the things that Rob said, he's completely turned his career around to the point where he's like he was the post-de-board for the analytics community as everything wrong with the type of players that I think anti-analytic people tend to fetishize. But he's just become like a 36% three-point shooter. He's like, it's kind of everything you want in a veteran combo forward. And just like, I think he, again, he would fit on a lot of different teams. So I'm excited to see him. I didn't pick him to be the type of guy

who would be a two-decadeer in this league. And it seems like, you know, he could get there eventually. He was never as big a star, so it wasn't as big a story. But he's had kind of like a Vince Carterish renaissance, you know, late career transformation, playing for the Spurs,

fill in a role. He was really good for them. It's a great comp. All right, let's wrap it there. Thank you for listening yet again. Thank you to Isaiah on production. We'll be back next week.

week at some point to talk about hopefully some actual maneuvers. But until then, see you next time.