The Ringer NBA Show - Fultz's Return, Overworked Wolves, Potent Underdogs, and Contrarian Drafting | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 236)

Episode Date: March 27, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor react to Markelle Fultz’s return to action (2:19), discuss the Minnesota Timberwolves’ puzzling loss to the Memphis Grizzlies (13:39), debate playoff teams that the top seeds want to avoid (24:25), and assess the value of dissent in draft evaluations (40:16). Check out Kevin’s analysis of Fultz’s return here: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/3/27/17167456/markelle-fultz-return-sixers-analysis. And pre-order Ringer merch at http://bit.ly/ringershop. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's Ringer MBA show is brought to you by Hotel Tonight. Here's a little insider travel secret from our friends at Hotel Tonight. There are tons of empty hotel rooms out there just waiting to be booked. That's how Hotel Tonight scores such incredible deals. They team up with awesome hotels to help them sell these rooms and pass along those savings to you. Not like last resort places. They work with cool top-rated hotels where you actually want to stay. And even though their name's Hotel Tonight, you can actually book up to 100 days in advance.

and top destinations and up to a week in advance everywhere else. So if you want to start scoring amazing deals at incredible hotels, download the Hotel Tonight app now. And now The Ringer NBA show. Coming to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Brien, aka Kevin O'Modal, aka Kevin O'Movic.

Kevin O'Brien. What up? How are you doing? How was your weekend? Everything was good. I did not think that the massacre of my NCAA bracket could get worse, but in fact, it did. Kevin, I will tell you that I felt very good about my NCAA bracket. And now by this upcoming weekend, I have Michigan left, and that is it.

I thought you had the lawyer in the finals, but. I did not have Loyola. Oh, well. And Sister Jean. You know what I'm really worried about? You know, the Internet's a dark place, man. And she's been around for what? 98 years. I was thinking about this this morning.

Oh, boy. I hope they don't dig up something on Sister Gene. You know what I mean? It feels like every good story we have in the world, you know, they end up digging up something that makes you feel bad about like the story that you feel so great about. You know what I mean? Like, you know, the little kid gets bullied and then they're like, yeah, well,

his mom writes crappy stuff on Facebook and she's got a Confederate flag. And I'm like, oh, for God's sakes. You know, can we just have like some story? Don't look at Sister Gene's Facebook page. Don't do it. Just resist She's very controversial opinions. Shout out to Sister Gene.

I've heard she's a big ringer NBA show fan. Oh, yeah, definitely. All right, the story of last night was clearly that the number one pick in last year's NBA draft made an appearance. Mark Hill Fultz. And that was kind of, I mean, I don't know if that took you by real surprise, but for me, when that story broke yesterday afternoon, I was shocked. because it was just like, it was like we had not heard anything really about that in terms of a timeline. Usually there's some level of expectation, hey, you know, you can be expecting him back sometime soon. But instead, it kind of felt like out of nowhere.

And they were like, hey, Markle Fultz is going to play tonight. And it just so happens to be on NBA TV. It was perfect. Yeah, Brett Brown last night seemed like super, super proud and really emotional, announcing before the game that Fultz was going to come back. And he was terrific. Fultz played really well, way better than you would expect for a guy who hasn't played for five months and went through months of scrutiny and had the issues that he had. It was a joy to watch.

We do need to give the Denver Nuggets a little bit of credit for that. I will imagine that he will be under maybe more duress in other games. Denver's defense is just an eyesore. I mean, that third quarter, it was 34 to 15. 34 to 15. and their life's on the line, that's the crazy thing, right? It's one thing to be bad defensively. It's another to be nowhere near locked in when you need a game every single night.

And yet somehow there's only a game and a half back of the eight seed. Despite all the issues, despite the fact Gary Harris is out injured for them right now, there's still only a game and a half back and they're still right now. But yeah, they needed that game last night, especially with Minnesota losing to your Memphis cruisleys. We'll get to the standings here in a moment, but I do want to ask you one other thing about Fultz. They have said he's not on a minute's restriction, which is interesting, but he's going to have to get back in game ship, right? You're not going to see him rolled out there 30-something minutes a night. You know, I'm watching him last night. The first thing that stood out, he's clearly

very fast, but he is bigger than I remember. You know, you kind of, once you stop thinking about, once you stop thinking about guys, and certainly once you stop seeing them, then I guess whatever my perception was or whatever I thought about him had just kind of gone away. He becomes out of sight out of mind. And then just watching him last night, you clearly see the glimpses of what made him the number one pick. But beyond that, it was just the size. And it really was startling to me. There was one moment where he was standing next to Jamal Murray. And he is way bigger than Murray. You know what I mean? He's a big guard. Because here's the thing with Markle Foltz, right? So all the talk about his jumper.

He hit two last night, got blocked twice by Mason Plumley on jump shot attempts, got blocked once on a floater. Fultz's jumper still needs to get a lot better. But last night, he showed off everything else, like what you're talking about, Chris, with his size, his potential versatility on the defensive end of the floor, his size offensively, the size advantage he has over a lot of point guards, his ability to finish against contact, just his fluidity in the open floor. You mentioned his speed.

combine that with his size and his ability to change directions. Foltz looked really good in those areas, and that's the type of stuff that didn't disappear. His passing ability is still really, really good, especially for a teenager. Everything was there last night. It looked like he has not missed five months. The confidence he played with was really remarkable, and I think, considering the adversity he went through, he showed some mental toughness. I think that bodes well for him moving forward with improving on his jumper, which, yes,

it still doesn't even get better. Okay, well, two things on that. Number one, the jumper didn't look gross. Yeah, it's definitely better than what it was. Yeah, we had seen those videos where it looked like a shot put or something. And certainly, if you're just watching it, you would not have gone, man, that guy's got an ugly shot because he doesn't. It did not look ugly. The second thing is, as we've talked about many times, that's the easiest thing to deal with.

That is work, right? There's a level of mechanics. And then it's just getting in the gym and repetition. but we have seen all manner of players, including great players, become infinitely better shooters than they were when they first came into the league. And a lot of guards, right, whether it's Kyle Lowry or it's Mike Conley or even Kauai Leonard, who was considered one of the best players in the league. You can become a really good shooter.

Jason Kidd, like, four years. By the time it was all over, he was shooting, what, like 40% from three? And it was later in his career as he reinvented himself. But that is the one thing. you can really work on and you can fix. But you can't get better at being big and athletic and fast and all that. You know what I mean? Like there's a ceiling on how good you can be at all that other stuff.

And he's got all that other stuff. He was super intriguing. I was wowed last night, I must tell you. And on the jumper, Chris, you know, one of the focuses in my article on the ringer today, like just reacting to his game is the confidence he played with. I mean, his first possession, he turned the ball over. like basically drove into a brick wall. You know, later in the game, despite getting his shot blocked,

he chased down a loose ball. I thought he reacted well to moments where sometimes players either they get tight or they follow up with another mistake. I thought he followed mistakes with good plays. That's something he's done, he did in college. That's something he's doing now and is returned in the NBA. So those are the little things that I think are very, very encouraging

based on what's happened the past five months. So the jumper, will it get better? Well, we don't know, right? We just don't know. But it has made progress from where he started at the beginning of the season with that shack-looking free-throw form

and the totally broken jumper. It's better now. And based on the way he performed in this game with all the adversity, I think it bodes well for him moving forward and I feel a lot better. Yeah, the fascinating thing is going to be what it looks like when he plays

in the elite-level defensive team. Because that was, in many cases, as you saw when they were going up and down the court. He was under very little duress. I mean, I'm not trying to take anything away, but it would look more like Summer League defense. And that's the Nuggets problem, yeah. It's the reality of it, Chris.

Situation and context matters. It's a difference for him going against Denver in the regular season. Then it will be going against potentially Boston or Toronto in the playoffs. I'm glad you mentioned that because we said he's not on minute restriction, though they're not obviously going to throw him out there. He's got a lot to learn about the NBA. game, as every young point guard does, seeing their first action.

In his fifth game. Yeah, and he's thrown into the mix, right? And obviously, he's not exactly being able to carry his experience of the first four games with him, right? It's been the 65 game break or whatever. But with only 10 games left to go, where do you think he fits in as a weapon for them come playoff time? Is he somebody that Brett Brown is going to regularly be throwing out there?

How many playoff minutes do you think we're seeing Markell Fultz get when these games, there is no time for mistakes, right, when it comes to the playoffs. There is no time for a guy playing not so well or learning on the job. And so that's the fascinating part to me about it. We only got like 10 games to get him ready. And then he's in the most high-leverage basketball. The Sixers have played in like a decade. That's an interesting question because last night Fultz just backed up Ben Simmons.

They didn't cheer the floor for even a second. And I don't know if you can have them on the floor at the same time because Ben Simmons can't shoot, and Markell Fultz hasn't shown that he can shoot outside of 18 feet. And he only hit two shots for that matter. There was times last night where Denver just didn't defend Fultz when he was on the perimeter because they didn't think he could shoot spot-up threes. Same thing with Ben Simmons.

So I don't know if you can play those guys together, which means Ben Simmons is going to play 34, 35 minutes per game. So maybe Foltz gets. the remaining minutes. Maybe it's 13, 14 minutes, or maybe if he's playing really well to close the season, you bump that up to like 20 and they share the floor for a short amount of time. But that's reasonable to expect. 20? 15, 20 minutes. I think for a guy that's missed so long and there's so many variables, 15, 20 seems fair. What do you think, Chris? I really don't know. I mean, obviously this is going to be something that Brett Brown has to decide. And you've got all of

these units and you've got these guys that are used to playing with each other. And so the talent of Markell Fultz is clearly superior to others that might get those minutes, but is the trust level when again, if you let somebody go on a 10-0 run, it may cost you a game and it may cost you a series, right? These coaches, everything is under a microscope when it gets to the playoffs and teams are they are structuring what they're doing defensively it is unlike a one-off during the regular season now after you have success doing one thing inevitably the other team is going to prepare for that for the next game and i just i don't know i think i'm just going to have to see him some more to decide whether or not i think brett brown's going to be willing to throw him

out there and play him significant minutes in the playoffs and that's going to be the tough thing for philadelphia because it's the same thing with Ben Simmons. Teams are going to game plan for his lack of a jump shot anytime he doesn't have the ball. And it could be the same thing with Markle Fultz as well. But this team is so young. So in some ways it's like the reaction is about the immediate playoffs upcoming because it's so exciting.

But it's also like, wait a minute. This team is so young and they're already so good. It's more about what they're going to look like two years from now with all their length and athleticism and their skill combined on the floor. It's scary. Like they could be really, really, really. really good, like true contenders in just a couple of years. Well, the other thing is he doesn't play like a role player, right?

If you're throwing in a guy that's spacing the floor and he's going to shoot and he's just playing defense and then he's standing in the corner, right? You get your 3-n-D guy or whatever. Fultz is a guy with the ball in his hands. And so that level of experience, you know, the spotlight is so much greater when you're the guy controlling what is taking place for better or for what. worse. There is the other side of it, which is maybe it's an advantage that there's so little research on him. You know what I'm saying? Like, weirdly, it could be a benefit that he hasn't

played all that much. Maybe. I'm just talking about in terms of what teams expect from you. For sure. But also, it's possible that you can almost just look back at the college scutter and report in some ways because for Fultz, last night, one of his better moves was, you know, dribbling right, spun back left. And that's something he did endless time. in college. It was like his go-to move, like one of his only advanced moves. So maybe he's going to lean on that

and that's something teams can get used. It's almost like with a couple years ago, Andrew Wiggins. Remember, like he always just used the one-spin move in some ways. He kind of still just does that one-spin move. And teams just got used to that. What a perfect segue, Kevin.

You're a real pro. Because one of the other big stories last night was the Minnesota Timberwolves who need every game like blood losing to the Memphis Grizzlies. I watched this game and I there was a general reaction. I kind of stayed away from it last night knowing we were doing the Ringer NBA show today. And there was a reaction amongst people. Obviously, you know, let's just take a step back. The Grizzlies theoretically need to lose.

The Timberwolves obviously need to win every game. And so when you see a result, yeah, as you see a result like what took place last night, Everybody goes, what the hell, what the hell happened? I will tell you what happened. And it is very simple. And it is going to play into a Kevin O'Connor narrative from earlier in the season. Okay. And that is, I watch this game. Kevin, they were dead.

Absolutely dead. That team was so tired in the fourth quarter of that game. And they put up 11 points. Wayne Selden, for God's sake. I've got scored them in the fourth quarter of that game. They scored 11, and so people can go, what the hell? How does that even happen? I'll tell you how it happens.

Jeff Teague played 42 minutes. Todd Gibson played 43 minutes. Andrew Wiggins played 43 minutes. Carl Towns played 39 minutes. Elita, be Elita? I can't even say the guy's name. He might have played, honestly, the most worthless 22 minutes in NBA history. And then they bring Jamal Crawford off the bench,

And he does, like, obviously he's Jamal Crawford. He comes in. He was just a zero last night. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he starts gunning. And they played Gorgie Jing 13 minutes and Tyos Jones 5. I'm telling you, I watched that game.

The fourth quarter, I was like, this is malpractice. These guys are going to, these guys are like, they're going to fall down. And the Grizzlies just kept on, like, playing. And it was just because they had some, they had some energy left. It was bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. For listeners of the.

bring her NBA show for the entire season. You may remember an episode back in December when I went on a long rant about Tibbs's rotations and minutes and usage. And there's some harsh comments in there about them at the time. And then it got better. It got better. Marcus George's Hunt played in a game and he played five or six minutes per a game, spelling other guys on the team.

And it was better. But now it's scary. The minutes wear guys down, especially on defense, Chris. Do you think that my pronunciation of Jolita is the most butchered name in NBA Ringer Show history? No, because that's a hard name. That's a hard name to say. He was just fantastic for zero points in 22 minutes.

I mean, there's a nothing. He's had some good moments as of late though. I was just talking about last night. For sure, but he's like a good example of one of those guys, Chris, where early in the season he was playing 14, 15 productive minutes per a game. and it's like, why doesn't this guy play 24, 25 minutes per game? Like, he was in that situation, and it took Jimmy Butler getting hurt in order for his minutes to get bumped up. Like, that's the disappointing part where it's like he's a guy who should have been playing in the 20s or the high 20s,

even the early, the low 30s and minutes earlier in the season with his ability to space the floor. There was a tweet the other day, Chris, where someone was like, well, the wolves, you know, sign their two-way contract guys to full contracts. and I was thinking to myself, does it matter? He's not going to use him. Yeah, right. So what's the point? Well, listen, they've had success.

Clearly, since they've lost Jimmy Butler, it has been a massive problem for them. But in terms of the people that say Tibbs runs guys into the ground or Tibbs plays guys too many minutes or he does not use a long enough rotation, I would give last night as example 1A of this. That is a hundred percent the only reason they lost last night. They lost last night because they were dead by the fourth quarter. I mean, I watched it. I watched the game. And listen, the Grizzlies within the last week lost by 61 to a team that wasn't fighting for the playoffs, which when I saw 61, I'm like, no way somebody else got beat by 61. That has to be the worst loss in NBA history.

Just thinking, you know, in terms of the amount of time, you only got 48 minutes in a game, right? So you're getting beat by one point whatever points per minute in the game. And I'm like, surely nobody has lost worse than that. And it was the sixth worst loss in NBA history. It wasn't even top five. The worst loss ever. I had to go look this up. 1991, the Cleveland Cavaliers played the Miami Heat.

And they beat them 148 to 80. They won by 68 points. And I went and pulled it up because, I was like either very end of the season team that's like tanking or somebody that's playing like all guys that you've never heard of in your life in a game, right? Like that's how something like that takes place. And what I found was insane. I don't know how many people that are listening would even be aware of this.

But I've been keeping up with the NBA for a long time and I had no idea what the worst loss was. But this is it. 68 points in 1991, Cleveland over Miami. The starting lineup for the Cleveland Cavaliers was Mark Price, Larry Nance, Craig Elo, Brad Doherty, and Winston Bennett. They brought like Hot Rod Williams, Terrell, Brandon, John Battle, Danny Ferry, off the bench. You know who else came off the bench that night?

It was two for two with five points and three assists. Who is that? Steve Kerr. I do not remember Cavs Steve Kerr. But that happened. But anyways, on the other side, you would expect Miami to be a bunch of guys you've never heard of in your life, right? Yeah. In fact, the opposite is true.

Glenn Rice, Steve Smith, Ronnie Cycley, Grant Long, Willie Burton. I mean, that's not even close to miserable, right, in terms of, like, the guys on the court. And they just got absolutely mauled that night. I need, like, an oral history of this game. Somebody do an oral history of this game because I was just thinking about that while you were talking about. I was like, hmm, an oral history would be interesting. Okay, because here's the even more interesting thing. Let me give you one more point on this.

You would think it's like at the end of the season, right? Like some of these things happen. Teams are like they've already got an eye towards the plus. It was like 20 games into the year and the heat were like around 500. I mean, it was, it is bizarre. I need an oral history on the worst loss ever. I need an oral history of the Tibbs-Wolf era, like however long it goes. I need an oral history of it.

I just do. I need it in my life. I need it. You need that? I need it. Well, Tim's a good talker. He might actually talk about it, right? Here's the scary part, though, with Minnesota.

Like, they just lost that team. Like, as you mentioned, that had one of the worst losses in NBA history, a team that is just totally depleted. A totally depleted team. Wayne Selden outscored them in the fourth quarter. Okay. It should have been, it should have been a game where towns and Gibson and Wiggins and Teague are all resting in the fourth quarter.

It should have and could have been one of those games. And yet it was the complete and utter opposite. If I'm a Wolves fan, I'm nervous about not just the playoffs, but I'm thinking of next summer, Jimmy Butler and Unrestricted Free Agents, I'm thinking, this could decline really, really quickly. I mean, they're in a tough spot. They've lost two in a row. They are four and six in their last 10, and this is obviously one.

things matter most. They are still, by virtue of the Sixers taking care of business against the Nuggets last night, they're still one and a half games up for that eight spot. They are two games up from the Clippers. And so, man, I mean, obviously you're kicking yourself if you're Nuggets or a Clippers fan, Isaac, I'm sure you are kicking yourself because this was shots fired. Well, I'm just saying all you had to do is get on a little run. Those teams are five and five in their last 10.

So they weren't able to make up ground. This would have been a prime opportunity that if somebody could have maybe instead of going five and five, they went seven and three in their last ten, they'd have that spot right now. I wish, man. I wish. Sorry, Isaac. Is there a game in the last ten that you resent the most? I guess, I mean, they played a five-point game at Houston. They lost at home to New Orleans.

That's probably the one in there that they should have gotten. Anthony Davis dropped 41 on them. Yeah, but you can't do anything. about that, honestly. I understand. Yeah, I mean, the other ones, you know, listen, they lost Oklahoma City. They lost to Portland. They lost to Minnesota.

Minnesota, obviously, losing at Minnesota by 14 when that's the team you're competing with for that spot. Yeah, that one's tough. So, yeah, but I think you're right, Kevin, I'd be worried as hell if I'm a T-WOLS fan right now because I don't know maybe these guys are just going to regenerate, but I will tell you last night, that was a tired basketball team by the time they got to the fourth quarter. and I mean, it's game 75 for God's sakes, right? These guys have been playing 40 minutes every night.

And they should make it. Their remaining schedule is Atlanta, Dallas, Utah, Denver, Los Angeles, Lakers, Memphis, Denver. But you notice in there are two Denver games. Those are going to be games that probably swing this one way or the other. All right, we'll get right back to it after word from ZipRecruiter. Are you hiring, posting your position at job sites and waiting and waiting and waiting to find the right people? ZipRecruiter knew there was a smart. smarter way, so they've built a platform that finds the right job candidates for you.

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Now, back to the show. Okay, let's get to where we think. When we're talking about those standings, they're all going to be jostling around. You still have, by the time you get to even the three seed, Oklahoma City is only two games back from Portland as of right now. And they're only a half game up on New Orleans and San Antonio, a game and a half up on Utah. And I'm speaking of Oklahoma City right now, game and a half up on Utah. And then we think that Minnesota is probably going to end up seven or eight, right? If I am the Rockets or the Warriors, I want like Hill to have to play.

either the pelicans or the timber wolves. You want to face the pelicans? Yes. I would be hoping that they get to seven and eight. I don't want to play the Spurs or Utah. You mean of the eight teams already in there right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For saying that these eight make it.

Okay, yeah, it makes sense. If you're Houston or your Golden State, right, you're the one or the two seed, what you don't want is for the Spurs or the Jazz to be manning those seven or eight seats. Because the Jazz have been a radically different team, as we know. Especially Utah. They are going to be better than their seed, right? Utah, we will admit, is going to be better than whatever their eventual seed is. That's not going to be a great indicator.

And in fact, as of right now, Utah has the third best point differential in the Western Conference. And I believe they would only be behind, yeah, two teams in the east, Toronto and Boston. So if we go by that as an accurate measure, and at least it has over the years been a rather accurate measure, Utah is one you stay away from. And the San Antonio thing, I don't know what the hell to think, Kevin, with the Kauai. I guess Kauai Leonard, is he going to be showing up in the playoffs? I mean, we are now, we're down to where they got eight games left. So, I mean, you're going to get in game shape and you're going to be a guy that's in the rotation. that whole mess last week was so crazy again.

And obviously our expectations of how hard a deal San Antonio could make it on an opponent would be devastating. Yeah, it's like with Fultz. Fultz out of nowhere. Brett Brown steps up to the podium pregame and says, Fultz is back. He's playing tonight. He's available. It could be. Maybe it'll be like that with Kauai Leonard.

It could be. I'm not optimistic that he'll return this season. But we'll see. It could be random like that. But as you said, Chris, there's a difference between Fultz having to get back into a rhythm for 15, 20 minutes coming off the bench than there is for Kauai Leonard to be the guy that he was in prior years in playoff situations for the Spurs. When he took on a heavy, heavy two-way load, 34. Well, that's not a lot of minutes for some players across the league on different teams, but it's a lot of minutes for a Spurs player playing like 35, 36 minutes in last year's postseason. to carry a heavy load for that team.

And I don't think it's realistic or reasonable for that matter to expect it with so little time left in the regular season. I was talking to somebody that covers the Warriors yesterday about this Western Conference playoffs and about them being without Steph and the fact that they're going to be the two seed. We know that. They're locked into the two right now. And so it's just a matter of who they would play in the first round.

But the expectation is they may not have Curry for that. and I was talking about how they want to stay away, you know, you want to try to stay away from Utah and San Antonio if you can. And the person, you know what they responded to me? I was kind of surprised by this. They say, you know who they want to stay away from the most, who they're praying doesn't drop, is they do not want to play Oklahoma City

because they are terrified that Westbrook would just destroy Quinn Cook in the case that they would have to play against them. Oh, goodness. And the Oklahoma City thing, is always a very tough environment for them and you got all that KD crap, you know, still. And he would be the guy, right? Everything would be on, like, Katie would have the spotlight on him completely. It would be Katie versus Russ the entire series.

Yes. Give me it. I want it. I want it. But that was, come on. I thought that was fascinating because it wasn't something that I had thought of, but clearly they have, right? They've thought of that.

In the end, it's just that Oklahoma City would be a team that you would really want to stay away from just because of the Westbrook factor and having to play against the thunder in their arena in the first round without Curry. That would make them the most nervous. Well, I hope Oklahoma City tanks into the seventh spot just so we can see that. I want to see it. You don't want that in the first round? Yeah, man. Okay. Let's say Oklahoma City is the three seed or the six seed and they set up for a second round date with Golden State. Maybe that would be a little bit better because the second round starts in five weeks and carrie's return is probably around six so that sets up a situation where will golden state bring step back at the

beginning of the series well maybe that's rushing him back well they bring him back in the middle of the series and that could be like some heroic return maybe second round would be better actually yeah i just talked myself into that second round would be better because you get the step variable entering the equation i don't want to get into some long uh drawn out discussion on this i'm just going to ask you for your quick opinion, okay? Do you think the pelicans are in the same shape, better shape, or worse shape if Boogie never gets hurt? This is a hard question to answer. I think there was some evidence early in the season that they were better when it was just one of them on the floor.

So I think what we've seen lately is perhaps an indication of that, that maybe Boogie an age, isn't the right fit together. And not necessarily an indictment of cousins, but we would not have seen this Anthony Davis. For sure. We can say that, but you also can't rely on Davis to do this for 82 games. We're seeing this for the second half of the season. So he needs support. The question really is, is Boogie the best support for him?

It might be their only choice. So I don't know what the alternatives are because you can't lose. booge but then again he just tore his Achilles and it's pretty scary the thought of paying a 280

pound big man that relies on explosiveness and agility and change of direction that just blew his Achilles that's scary yeah that's fair that's scary

all right let's move over to the Eastern Conference is the demise or death of the Boston Celtics exaggerated at this very moment I think most people have written them off well I think

think it's fair to say it probably won't have a hundred percent kairi and in the absence of a hundred percent kairi a team that we might have thought would be on a collision course for an eastern conference finals appearance or certainly you know one of the few teams that would have a shot at going to the finals where lebron's team might look more susceptible than they've had in many years that now i think most people if you asked them would have toronto and cleveland meeting in the Eastern Conference Finals, whereas a couple of weeks ago, I think people would have thought Boston,

certainly some would have predicted Boston to be in an Eastern Conference finals, but I think now everybody would have the Raptors versus the Cavaliers and that the Marcus Smart injury was one thing, but that the Kyrie injury, or at least a hobbled Kyrie, would be a bridge too far,

even for the genius Brad Stevens. What do you think? For sure. I mean, if they don't have Kyrie, Yeah, they don't have a chance on the playoffs. You need great go-to scorers that can get buckets on the fourth quarter, and Kyrie Irving is that guy for them. They need Kyrie Irving to have a shot of making the finals.

No doubt about it, but his timeline was three to six weeks. There's a more realistic chance that he comes back at the lower end of that timeline, the three weeks. So he could be back from the beginning of the playoffs. Whether he's 100% or not remains to be seen, but the Celtics did say it was a minimally invasive procedure. So we'll see if he's able to. to return to be the same old Kyrie Irving.

But for sure, I think over these recent weeks, Toronto has slipped a little bit. They haven't been quite the same, which is a little worrisome. And then obviously with Boston, the injury issues to not just Kyrie, but also Marcus Smart, Daniel Tice, they've lost a couple of guys on that team that are more important in their rotation. Whereas LeBron, LeBron is just, oh my goodness, dude.

He's having one of the best runs of his career. I don't want to talk to you about LeBron, James. You with the, you almost melted. my face yesterday with the hottest take of all times. How's that a hot take? That's not even simmering. Oh, good grief. I want you to go pull up versus Dirk and the Mavs in the finals. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to get involved in slander here, but let me just tell you this. If Ray Allen doesn't hit the greatest shot in NBA finals history, that Joker goes one and three with the super team he constructed. One and three in the finals with the super team he constructed.

Chris, it's like we talked about during the MJ LeBron week we did at the Ringer. And I said to you that I didn't live through Michael Jordan. I lived through it, but I was just a kid. I was born in 1990. So I didn't experience it at the fullest. So I don't feel like I'm ever somebody who can say that a player is the goat. Granted, I tweeted that. You did it.

You did it, Kevin. You did that shit. But that would be projecting six more years of this from LeBron. James. If he wins more titles. Wins more titles. You always have to couch everything. Then that's not a hot take. Come on. It wasn't a hot take. Let's get hotter.

Come on. You're saying that Michael Jordan is, by the time it's all said and done, we're not going to think Michael Jordan's the greatest player ever. Trigger fingers turn to Twitter fingers. Drake said it. I just don't see where the hot take is to say that LeBron James will probably be the greatest player of all time when it's all said and done. Oh, good grief. Listen, I'm telling you if Ray Allen doesn't bang down the greatest shot in finals history, this Joker goes one and three. Yeah, why does it matter that he has NBA finals losses, but nobody ever talks about Michael Jordan not getting his team to the finals?

Why does that not matter? Why does nobody talk about LeBron's years where he couldn't get over the Celtics in the playoffs, where he couldn't make it to the finals? Why are just the finals losses focused on? I don't understand. Wait, hold on. Let me just go ahead and bang you up on this, because you're the one that said nothing else matters. except for championships. You're Mr. Rings culture.

No, no, no. No, I talk about the ultimate goal is winning rings as an organization. Oh, fine. Well, that's the ultimate goal for the player, too. And if Ray-Aound doesn't knock down that three and Draymond doesn't punch somebody in the dick, he's got one. But it's not the end criteria, though,

in determining greatness. Is Charles Barkley not a great, all-time great player because he didn't win a ring? No, he's still an all-time great player. Of course he's a great player, but good-grateful player. but good grief. What gets brought up about him like every damn broadcast. That's too bad. I mean, so let's not act like it's not a big deal because, I mean, like you can't watch

the show without being brought up that he doesn't have a ring. But players winning titles isn't always up to them. What I'm getting at is it's the front office putting pieces around said player to maximize I agree. You're talking about a guy who won six who never even went to a game seven. All right. this guy is, come on, let's be careful with the goat stuff. We'll see.

We're still in it with LeBron. We don't know. Well, it appears he's going to play 25 more years, so he should get some more rings. I mean, the guy is... Yeah, maybe LeBron will take a year and a half off. Oh, don't you dare. Don't you dare. This guy was going through a lot, man.

His dad had died. He was in a dark place. Get off, Jordan. And, by the way, let's see LeBron go play baseball. See how he does playing for the Birmingham parents. He'd probably be better than Jordan. Go ahead and say it. I know you want to say he'd be better than Jordan to baseball.

I just want to say this, though. Micah Adams from ESPN tweeted yesterday that LeBron in his 15th season is still increasing his yearly averages. And the response from a lot of people was, well, of course, he's younger in year 15 than other guys were. And I feel like LeBron's starting in the NBA and dominating at a younger age is part of the reason why the argument is strong for him, you know, when you look back at his career once it's over for his greatness, the fact that he did start earlier straight out of high school, whereas

Jordan played multiple years in college, whereas a lot of great players played three, four years in college and didn't enter the league until they were 21, 22, 23 years old. I feel like that's part of the amazing narrative with LeBron is just the fact that he came in as a teenager and dominated from day one. And here's the moment where Kevin O'Connor, says, here, let me steal your line. Appreciate this because it's not going to last forever because people don't appreciate LeBron

and blah, well, I got enough with I'll appreciate LeBron. I'm tired of LeBron. I'm ready for the Janus era. Let's go. I don't know what we're going to do with all LeBron. I think we're going to just move on to the next guy like we have for the last 50 years. For sure, but there needs to be a next guy

because what would this era? There's more great young players in the NBA. now than I can ever remember. No doubt. No doubt. There's a lot of interesting players where if it's like to show the leftovers and LeBron disappeared tomorrow. The league would still be in a great place, but

LeBron makes it a hell of a lot better. I agree. Yeah. I'm thankful to be alive at the same time as LeBron James in this prime. All right, Kevin, we'll get right back to it. First, a word from our sponsor, Belvedere. Produced in one of the world's longest running distilleries, Belvedere Vodka is the world's finest, all-natural vodka crafted by a collective of master distillers. Belvedere is made with non-GMO

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And now back to the show. So I got into a tiff, as I have many times on Twitter, about the NBA draft. And about this, you know, every time I give an opinion on the draft, you know, everybody calls you an idiot about everything you say. And several months ago I said this is so, I've been watching a ton of college basketball. This draft is so wildly overrated. It's unbelievable. And now we have one potential lottery pick left in this final four.

and that is McKell Bridges from Villanova, who is part of an outstanding team. But one of the things that I got into last week was, you know, if I have a different opinion than many about this stuff, one of my defenses is, you know, given that it is not, like I guess it's my job to give these opinions and I want to be right about these things, but in the end, I think it is healthy to have different opinions

and I am always just stunned at the lack of different opinions. And at the lack of different opinions when it comes to the NBA draft, we know the draft has not been the beacon of efficiency, right? There's busts like every year that are drafted in the top five to ten guys. And yet almost every mock that you can find mirrors each other. Nobody really has much radically different. I was stunned by this. And so I've been asking around the people about it. Like, how can this be the most unbelievable group think project?

on earth. How can everybody's board look the same or close to? And the agent told me, this was his philosophy, that these mocks come out and then obviously there's a lot of, I don't want to say copying, but like, but there's a baseline for it. Like here's and then people can, you know, inject their information and or opinions into those mock drafts. and that the proliferation of those and the fact that every fan has those and every player and every agent and everybody in the free world has those has now put this pressure on general managers, most of which are not secure enough to say, I think, let's just say somebody might think McKell Bridges is the second best player in this draft.

Okay, it would be outlandish as compared to the drafts, but it would be something I respect. Like, hey, man, that's your opinion, right? Everybody can have different opinions, and you think the Bridges is the second best player in this draft. But that they wouldn't take that guy because of these mock drafts. That was the explanation to me. Because if you make a mistake and you take a guy that everybody in the free world agrees upon is elite and is supposed to be drafted where conventional wisdom or at least whatever the wisdom of the mockery drafts are, that you won't get fired over that, right?

Because every owner has access to those, every GM, every fan, every everything. But if you have your own opinion and you go out there and you say, to hell with what the mock drafts say, to hell with all that. I'm taking the guy I think is the best, that then you put yourself at risk. What do you think? Well, I have a couple thoughts on that, Chris. So I've told a story in the podcast before, but it's worth bringing up again along those lines of what you just said.

With the Minnesota Tim Rolves in the 2010 draft, I've heard that, and you hear this about a lot of situations that, oh, we were thinking about taking this guy, but I buy this, that in the 2010 draft, they had the huts for Paul George, who ended up going 10th to Indiana. And they really, really wanted to take him

with the fourth pick. But because of the fact that George, seemingly the consensus amongst, whether it's public, whether it's internally, whether it's, you know, with other NBA teams, most people thought of Wesley Johnson as a better prospect. So they didn't go with their gut and take Paul George, the guy that they ultimately felt was actually the right guy,

some people within that front office. Last season with Donovan Mitchell, you know, I heard the Knicks had interest with him in eight. I heard Charlotte head interest. There was a handful of teams ahead of 13 with Denver traded it out for Utah. where he ultimately landed. There was quite a lot of interest in Mitchell, and the teams perhaps didn't just go with their gut feeling

that he was a guy partially because of the consensus. But in reality, Chris, the consensus doesn't exist, which is the odd part of kind of the public group thing, because you talk to people in the league, you get drastically different responses on value of players, drastically different. And within front offices, that's exactly what you want. You want dissent.

You want people to disagree because through debate and through group discussion, that's where sometimes the best solutions or the best ideas or the best approaches come. And publicly, that doesn't happen to the extent that I wish it did because, you know, before I was writing, I remember, you know, seeing Draft Express and ESPN rankings and then other sites that I would read would kind of do. stuff similar to what they changed. Like if one guy shot up the boards, he would suddenly shoot up the boards on somebody else's

website. It's like, well, wait a minute. Why did that change just because DX and ESPN said so? Why don't why don't you just do it your own way and have what you actually think these guys should be? Because that's the way it is is in the league. Every team, every executive, every

scout has different rankings. And if they don't, then there's a problem. Because you need, you need to have that disagreement. Yeah, and so one of the things, Kevin, is I would say this particular agent that I was talking to about this idea of group think and that guys are scared to, quote, overdraft somebody. The one personnel guy that he brought up to me, he said, that's why I have such respect for Danny Aange. He said, because he's got his board and he just sticks to his board. And he doesn't

give a crap what all these mocks and everything said. So if people think it's goofy that I take Terry Rozier 17th, he doesn't care. And that was actually. actually the example he brought up. It's true. Right. He was higher on Terry Rozier than everybody else, everybody. And he just said, the hell with it. I don't care.

Now, he's so secure, right? And so comfortable in his own skin that he can do that. And if you are, let's just say you've got real confidence in Terry Rozier and you think he's going to be good. And so you don't care if people think you're taking him too high. That's who you believe in. You have to be right about that. Unless you have immense security and comfortability in your own skin.

And so I thought that was interesting. He right off the top of his head brought up Danny Aange and then gave me an example of a time that that took place where he had conviction on a guy. That's what his board said. And he didn't give a crap what everybody else thought. I heard a similar story. And I don't want to say the team, but it was a type of situation where the general manager, they had their pick. and they went around the table, right? Everybody, asked everybody,

who's the guy that you think we should take with this pick between these two players? And let's just use the 2018 draft for an example. Let's say it's between Colin Sexton and Trey Young. And so goes around the table, everybody is saying Sexton, Sexton, Sexton, Sexton, Sexton. Everybody agrees on Colin Sexton. But then it comes back to the general manager,

and he's like, I don't know. I don't know. Trey Young's the guy from me. And they ultimately go with Trey Young because the general manager has the final say. and it's his choice. You're right that that general manager who makes that choice

needs to have security or a hell of a lot of balls to make that decision. Or they need to be the team owner. That's a great story because it's one of I was covering the Grizzlies the last time they had the number two pick the year they took the beat.

And Michael Heisley wanted the beat. He was a Georgetown guy. He was well versed in the Big East. Jerry West had given a recommendation to him who he still kept up with to that day. And everything was split that year. If you recall, there was no consensus number two. There was a consensus number one in Blake Griffin. But, and most people had the beat in the top five of their mock drafts,

everybody did, in fact. And some people thought he could be like the next mootumbo. Some people thought he could be some great player. But then after that, it was like, it's Tyreek, it's Ricky Rubio, it's James Hardin, it's Steph Curry, and everybody, even within the organization, had a different opinion. There were Rubio fans. There were Tyreek fans. There were Steph Curry fans. And in the end, right, everybody was split. And that's even the number two pick in the draft, Kevin.

Everybody was split on who they should take. Now, obviously, in the end, they took the worst possible, I mean, it was the worst possible scenario ever. Outside of if you would have taken, like, maybe I don't know, Johnny Flynn, but even that would have been different. But I'm just saying, like, to your point, that's how these rooms go about. So guys do have different opinions on all of this stuff. And then I am just so blown away that there is just a consensus that here's the five best players in this draft or here's the top 10. I mean, I don't think you can find a mock that has three players different in the top 10. Would that be fair to say than everybody else's?

I think with the top guys, there usually is more consensus. I don't even mind the top guys being ranked the way they are. it's the stuff after the top guys where I hate when there's a strong correlation between different rankings. That's where I find there's too much group think. With the top guys, it's like, they're just the top guys. Like, they're the easiest to figure out. But it's it shouldn't, what I'm saying is it shouldn't be consensus because there's going

to be one of them or two of them that fail. For sure. Those top five guys, there's going to be a couple that fail. So it's not a consensus. I'm telling you that between D'Andre Aiton, Marvin Bagley, Luca Donchich, I mean, history will tell us, I suppose there have been some drafts where they've all worked out. You think about even the LeBron one, right? But Darko didn't.

It's LeBron, Darko, it's Carmelo, it's Wade, it's Bosch. That's the top five, right? Okay, so one of those didn't work out. So what I'm telling you is that's, and that's the best of the best. That's frigging four Hall of Famers. and then Darko. There's going to be somebody and usually multiples

in whatever everybody in the free world believes is the top five players that will not live up to being what people think he's going to be. Well, that's the tough part with rankings because they're, okay, every website's ranking,

some are informed by like a consensus of what NBA executives and general managers and scouts are telling them. So it's like informed consensus based on the feedback of NBA people. But then there are some websites like on the ringer, the NBA draft guide,

where it'll be my own rankings, my own personal board, Charks' own personal board, Danny Chow's own personal board, like what we would do if we were in a position, if we were the general manager of the team. But even then, Chris, I mean, even then,

it's tough to do an agnostic board, or that doesn't apply to a single team because you might have a guy ranked seventh for one team, but you might actually have him 18 for another, right? You know what I mean? Like based on situation, based on projected role, based on opportunity,

based on system, there's a lot of variables that go into it if you're ranking for one individual team compared to another. So that's like the really tough part with these sometimes. I will eventually come out with my own list, but I am going to take the draft world by storm eventually, Kevin. People will start seeing it my way because here's what I'm doing. My list is just, no, my list is just who I am confident is not going to suck. That's how I view this.

That's how I view it. I swear, and that may be a morbid way to look at it, but I go, at the worst, I've got a good player. Like that's the absolute floor is that this guy's going to be, I am confident that this guy is going to be a good NBA player. And then I just, and I will miss on some of the highest level talent sometimes, right? But over time, I think I'll at least get good NBA players and I'll probably get some great ones interspersed. And I'd be willing to take the loss on, hey, I missed on this talent and I missed on this talent in order. to make sure that I didn't draft a bust.

Like guys that are bust proof. That's what I'm trying to find. You can't take guys off your board entirely though because... I just push them down. I'm not gonna... I'm with you. Yeah, okay, I feel you then. Because it's the type of thing,

like let's just say, let's just say Mo Bamba was a guy that you, you wouldn't have in the top six or top seven, like everybody else seems to have them up there. You can't take him off the board entirely. Maybe you'd have them like at 15 or 16 instead. Yeah, no, I'd just play it. safe, right? Yeah, you might have them behind

Robert Williams on your board, or you might have them behind a Daniel Gafford. And people would look at you like you're an idiot, but you're not. You wouldn't be because I guarantee there's one executive out there that probably has Bamba behind those guys. It's just the truth.

Everybody has different evaluations. But imagine that happening, right? Imagine that happening. Imagine if I came out with a mock draft tonight and I had Mo Bamba 16th and Trey Young 23rd, People would think I'm an asshole, right? They would if it's a mock draft, but it's like this is my own personal.

Why? Because my own board. Even my draft board. Oh, God. I mean, Oh, you're ripped apart. People would go,

oh, it's click-bade, you know, you don't really, like, I felt that in 2014. I had Julius Randall ranked like 14. I think it was 14 was the final ranking ad for him.

Everybody else had him like six or seven. And I definitely should have had him higher. No doubt about it. I was too low. on him. But I definitely felt it was your opinion. Yeah. And in some ways... I at least respect that you have a different opinion than what is supposed to be

everybody cannot feel the same way about all of these guys. It's a damnedest thing. And oh, by the way, with Julius Randall, he again is in a perfect situation with a coach and Luke Walton that's enabling him to really be a

ball handling big guy, the role he's in. He is in a great situation. for that. Had he been in a different situation where he hadn't done that, well, maybe he would just be a big bruising rebound guy who still doesn't defend and still can't shoot threes. There's still concern there with him, but he's in a great situation to maximize him. I actually saw him in person within the last week, and I think he can get better. And I love guys with high motors like that. I do. And I think that I actually, when I got done with watching that game, I thought to myself, you know, even, even if they don't get the big stars, and I think everybody thinks that Randall's just going to go somewhere else and they're going to go sign free agents, if they don't go and get, like, some big stars to sign with the Lakers, falling back to that is not bad. I mean, depending on what his contract is, but I mean, it's not like they couldn't just bring him back and they got a hell

of a player. I like him. I do. The reason why I had him ranked so low in 14 is because his defense is just awful at Kentucky, really, really horrible. I worried about his jumper, still worried about his jumper. It's still concerning. 21% from three. Just not a good shooter from NBA three-point range. And then defensively, he's way better than he was before, especially in man-to-man, but boy, he still has some bad moments on defense. I get you. But he goes hard. Oh, yeah, that's the thing. He plays hard. I just don't know if the aware. Just to tie this to this year, Chris, that's kind of also the concern with Marvin Bagley, where it's like, yeah, he's so athletic and he can move so well, but with Randall, it was like just an inability to read the floor.

And it's kind of similar with Bagley where teams are just picking on him sometimes, despite the fact he's this unbelievable athlete who on paper should be a great defender. He's going to be awesome. People have said that a lot, though. He could be awesome. Bagley's going to be awesome. You can't rule that out, but there's some legitimate concern with his defense, shorter wingspan, lean body, and an inability to read the floor.

This is where we break ways, right? I mean, well, because you don't talk about DeAndre Aiton like that, and he's no better to fainter. There's concern with him. If you and me were in the room, we would have an absolute blood war on Aton versus Bagley, because I would take, I would take Bagley. If we were like a general manager, a sister general manager of the Memphis Grizzlies. Yes. We would be having a blood war. We would be button heads about it, for sure.

And guess what? That's okay. Oh, and there's probably a lot of teams that are having that, you know, discussion every day. No doubt about these guys. No doubt. Kevin, it's always my favorite on Tuesdays. Thanks, brother. Likewise, Chris, this is fun.

Have a good one. It's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you dig with your hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes. We will talk to you next week.