The Ringer NBA Show - Future Power and No-Power Rankings | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

By the 2025-26 season, which teams will be in the best or worst situations? Justin, Rob, and Wos each pick the five teams they believe have the worst outlook, including the Wizards, Rockets, and Blazers (01:11). Then, they each pick the teams they believe have the brightest future, including the Cavaliers, Thunder, and Grizzlies (53:18). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did your favorite NFL team win the Super Bowl? No? Then the NFL draft is your Super Bowl. I'm Danny Haifitz. And from now until the draft, we are turning our fantasy football show feed into the Ringer NFL draft show. Every Tuesday, we talk about the top players and most important storylines for the NFL draft. So join us on the Ringer NFL draft show. Hello and welcome to group chat.

I am Justin Barrier. Joining me the Matt Damon and Ben Affleck of the Ringer podcast network. Rob Mahoney, Big Waze. What's up, gentlemen? Are we early career or late career? Are we going up or are we kind of make an air? What are we doing? Which one do you want to be?

I mean, I want to be on the up and up. I want to be goodwill hunting, Matt and back, you know? I just don't want to be in my Gile era. That's all. I regret to inform you guys, but I think we're way too wash for any sort of young, up-and-coming era. For anything. Very true. Well, that's actually a pretty good segue to our topic on hand here.

So we're recording Wednesday morning. Everything in the NBA is in disarray because on any given night, it seems like teams jump five places in the Western Conference standing. So as opposed to trying to make sense of that mess because it will inevitably change by the time we're done talking today, we're going to take a step back and reflect on the teams that have the brighter and maybe not so bright futures in the NBA. We usually do no power rankings at some point around this time of year. We're coupling that with the top five future power rankings. So we're doing future power rankings and future no power rankings. Was, where do you want to start from the bottom or at the top?

I think the conversation is always more interesting about who is trending down, who should have Doomsday. And you know why I think is more interesting now is that just teams are just not as poorly managed as they used to be. They're just not, like, there's no Brooklyn Nets right after KG and Paul Pierce completely washed out. Like, that situation was dire. There was no way for them to be anything more than a 30-2-1 team on the high end of things. And I don't think there's a team that exists quite in that situation. So I thought it was, you know, it was more interesting or fun even to figure out which teams I was most down on

as far as like the immediate future just doesn't seem very promising. Yeah, that is what the NBA is missing right now is that that one team that's like spending a ton of money has like a bunch of veterans and it's still absolute garbage, right? Like the teams that are bad are generally bad because they're very young and they're in the midst of a long rebuild. And I'm sure we're going to talk about a lot of those teams, but weighing that conceptually against some of these teams who are kind of stuck in the middle with some older rosters, like that's where the meat of this conversation goes, I think.

Yeah, the teams that are overspending and getting rid of all of their future draft picks are now the best teams in the NBA. Yeah. At some point, the worst way of building a team has somehow become the best way as long as your immediate future looks bright. And so a lot of those teams did end up in the middle for me. But we'll get to that. So we're looking at the next three years. So through the 2025, 2026 season, three years after this season. So whatever analysis we have would be for that.

that. Rob, do you want to start off with your number five? Let's go around the horn with number five's all the way up through number one, one being the worst situation. And then whenever we get a duplicate, you could just shout out where that team is on our lists. Yeah, my number five counting up to the worst situation is the Portland Trailblazers. So I have them as an honorable mention.

Yeah, I think they're kind of one of these bubble teams. You could slot them in here. You could slot in some of these young. younger teams that have been worse this season. For me, it's a matter of like, there is an inertia to their situation. Yes. That feels pretty dangerous. Like, the upside is so low that this isn't even a treadmill of mediocrity team.

This is a team that maybe we'll get into the play-in this year for the foreseeable future. Maybe we'll get bounced out of the play-in by a more well-rounded team. That's what you're playing for. And as hard as it is to put a team with one of the best players in the sport on this part of the list, I just don't see where Portland's going. And to me, even if they shifted directions, they would have so much work to do and even starting to tear it down.

Yeah, and I think if you think about stuff like a guy like Jeremy Grant, who I think has been fantastic for them this year, he's coming up on a contract. Let's just say they re-up that guy. And maybe it's just an asset play. Like we get to keep this asset, and, you know, somebody's going to find this wing

defender with scoring chops, very valuable. We can flip him if, you know, if need be. What is that team? Like, we're looking at it right now. Like you, and I think Jeremy Grant should get cashed out. Of course, I think he's a very valuable player. I think he's a winning player. I think on championship worthy teams, he's a starter on those kinds of teams.

I think he's a wonderful player. I love his game. But what is Portland after that move? and it's not like they have a bunch of, what's the expression? Bowes in the quiver? How do you say that? I don't know.

Arrows in the quiver? Oh, arrows. Okay, I said bows, bow and arrow. I'm city slicker. My bad. Anyway, it's not as if they have a bunch of other stuff, you know, outside of their first round pick from last summer that they can give up to get much better.

I just think they're rudderless right now. And I think, you know, just me personally, which is this is not objective, franchise, team building ideas. This is just me what I would like to see. I'd like to see Dane be moved to a contender. I'd like to see Dame on a real team. I'd like to see Dame on a team that has a chance to win 50 games, has a chance to play into the second and third round. I would like to see Portland deliver that outcome for us as NBA fans. just mercy kill his tenure in Portland.

So I had them on the outside of my top five for this reason and this reason alone. They are currently sixth in the lottery odds. And if this team is going to make anything of itself in the Dame Lillard era, it is going to be through the draft. And so while I think a lot of people were questioning some of their moves at the deadline, they made a lot of low rent moves. They got rid of Josh Hart, got some picks back, took a flyer on Thibald, took a flyer on Thibald, took a flyer. on Cam Reddish. I actually kind of like what they did because I do think this is going to be a two year probably at the very least period of rebuilding in order to make something of DAME. I actually think there is a reasonable future for them where they could be a decent to

contending team based on just doing this slowly aggregating smart picks where you have a Sharp, you have Simons, you have Dame, you have something else. But I think it really depends on Deem's willingness to do so. And based on current comments, it doesn't seem like he's going to. So I'm probably not as low on them as maybe some of you guys are. I think it's fair. And like the Lillard part of this is honestly so unimpeachable. Like he has been so good that it does feel crazy.

It feels crazy to put them here. But for me, it almost works the opposite way. Where I look at that conflict of interest. I'm like, I'm seeing Shaden Sharp. I'm saying like, he could be a good player in two years. It's it's it's it's gold in state warriors to track, um, team building without the justification. Like, without the four championships, without the all time great level, you know, results. Uh, that like the like 73 wins and stuff.

Like it's golden state thinking with just, just no, just you can't justify this. But that's kind of the model is where the warriors are, if anything, kind of right now, because what you're talking about, Justin is like, okay, let's say Shaden Sharp continues to develop, let's say they get that lottery pick. Let's say they get Victor Webb and Yamo, absolute jackpot in the lottery. He's going to take a couple years to kind of get fully up to NBA speed in terms of being like a part of a meaningful playoff team. And if we're saying two years, which I think could be generous for some of these younger guys, now Dame is 35. He's kind of like, you know, and Steph has shown that there's still room

for guards at that age to be really effective players. And Dam is a serious guy. He takes care of his body, does all of that stuff. Absolutely. But you're just you're playing with so little margin for error in terms of the one thing your franchise has going is Damien Lillard. And by the time your young guys get

fully up to speed and ready to compete in the playoffs, he might be entering into a different stage of his career. Yeah. I just don't think there are any magic bullets here. And I actually think that Webin Yama could be one of the rare rookies even who is a positive, like maybe even by his second year, they be able to contend.

That's how good he's supposed to be. But, like, I don't know. I just like the idea of trying a lot of things on the fringes, because this is going to be hard work if it is going to work at all. And at the very least, they're taking flyers. They're taking the right flyers. I don't know if it's going to work, which is why I have them just outside of the five worst situations in the league.

But I think there is a non-zero possibility where this team becomes semi-competitive with Dame Stillinghouse. That's all. Was, where did you have them on your list? What number? I had the number one. Wow. The worst situation.

Yeah. I mean, in the worst situation, meaning I don't, them and the whiz who are my number two, I just, in the next three years, the best, like, there's no. So I like Simons. I like Sharp a lot, right? But I don't see a situation where those guys get to sort of, we get to really see who they actually are. because Dane gets to be a crutch for them if he stays around in the next three years.

I don't think we get to really test their medal. And so, like, to me, to me, like if Dane is there for the next three years, this is it. I don't see anything much better than eight, nine, ten seeds for this team when you consider age. Because again, Dane needs to be on a team where he's allowed to miss 20 games, you know?

And like 20 games missed by Dame Lillard for this roster construction is disaster. We're seeing it. Because even when he plays, it's God awful. So to me, just the fact that you're capped at like 37 wins for three years, period, capped at that. To me, that's dire. That's terrible. They need to change directions. Yeah, notable you brought up the Wizards was the Blazers have a worse record than the Wizards right now.

That's crazy. Worst record than the Indiana Pacers, who are at a totally different stage in their team building and their development. It's not good for a team that is like veteran-laden. And I agree with you. Like the cap on them is pretty strict right now. And again, we can save the Wizards.

And there's other teams who I think are in situations that are semi-similar to Portland's, but their superstar is eight years younger, nine years younger, right? Which makes it more tenable. than what's like there's an immediacy to what Portland needs that just

when other teams have the one guy that can do anything and everything else is sort of middling but at least that one guy is really young. So who did you have at five, was? The Raptors. Interesting. Yeah.

And the reason why I say that is because it just feels like there's a stubbornness in the front office that comes with God bless incredible job security, right? He just is not, Masayu Jiri just is not in a rush to do anything. And I feel like his play has always been, I'm going to keep the team good. I'm going to keep good players on my team and I'm going to wait for the perfect deal that comes along.

Like when I dealt mellow and when I did all these other deals. And I think that's just handicapped what they doing. In the meantime, you know, I guess there's this idea. that they can overwhelm people for a superstar piece, I just think the mentality of we can't strip this down and start trying to get, you know, a Webbenyama or a franchise savior, I think that's holding them back.

And I think it's going to continue to hold them back. And they're going to be this until they, you know, shit or get off the pot. I think if there is an argument to have them in this list, it's what we've talked about, that there just aren't that many disastrous situations. And so then you get into this question was like, how do you feel about how they navigate the league? To me, that's what most of this stuff is, Rob.

Sorry to cut you off. No. It's even, you know, other teams on my list, it's not dire. Yeah. I don't think they're going to, they're destined for the lottery every single year. I don't think there's a team like that who isn't doing it on purpose. Um, and with reason like a spurs, right?

Like who just, to me, they don't. fit the bill of this question of Dyer for three years. It's they've decided to start all over. Right. And so once you take those teams out of the equation, the Utah Jazz is, you're left with this middling

pack, this playing pack who do you like what they have going forward the most? And so to me the Raptors, especially when you consider management is entrenched and has no incentive to do something. Look,

Bad as the rudy thing seems now, I liked it at the time. It was like, let's try to do something. The Raptors would just never do something like that. So there's no upside there and that they can potentially be what we thought the best version of Minnesota would be. And so that's why to me they're on this list. Yeah, I definitely put a lot of the more middling teams toward the top of my rankings. But the bottom of my rankings is actually filled with a lot of the really, bad teams whose only hope rests on them getting Victor Webbenyama.

Like, I actually think that's just as dire of a situation as some of these, because on the one hand, you do have a lottery ticket in a draft that's supposed to be, what, four or five players deep. If you don't get Webidiamma, you might get, like, a pretty good player. But on the other hand, like, if you don't get Webbenyama, like, you just have another good player to stack on top of your other pretty good players, which is why I had the Rockets, for instance, number five. Yes, they're second best in the Wembi odds.

and like, yeah, some guys are showing flashes. Jpari Smith has been pretty good lately, at least statistically. On the other hand, like, they just keep throwing out picks. They keep picking guys. And it's just like, do any of these guys that they currently have really while you? Can you build a franchise around him if you do not get a Webin Yama? I would say no at this point, even though, like, Jailen Green is nice, Smith is nice. We all love Shen Goon and worship at the altar of the behind the back passes and whatnot.

But like, I don't know. that's just as concerning as a team like the Wizards or the Blazers for me. I think the Rockets are in a worse situation than that. Like they are in a more dire spot on my ranking. Where you have them? I have them as the second worst situation in the league. And it's a combination of,

so currently, as currently constructed, it should surprise no one to hear that they have some of like the worst lineups in the NBA this season, all of which featured their core players. you know, Shangoon, Smith, Green, Porter, on the floor.

Those lineups are bad in a vast majority of situations. It's okay, they're young. But then you hear quotes like Draymond Green the other night after the Warriors played the Rockets. I don't know if you guys saw this quote. He was kind of commenting on their situation, the state of their team building, and went on this extended riff about how it's very easy to have bad habits,

but at some point it becomes who you are. and at the same time he was praising their coaching staff, Stephen Silas and the coaches there and basically putting a lot of, you know, as directly as one does in a post-game press conference, a lot of blame on the players for like, are you listening to anything they are telling you as far as like organizing yourselves on the court?

So that's where I sort of diverge from, I agree with everything you guys say. I don't think an argument can be made that that coaching staff has made things better. I'm not saying they've made it worse. I don't see how you can say they've made this better than it could be. It feels like it's as bad as it possibly could be, in my opinion.

Is Jermon the kettle or the pot in that situation? Because, like, was him punching his younger teammate? Was that, like, a good habit? It's not a good habit. I wouldn't want to get into the habit of just indiscriminately punching the people around you in your workplace, but he raised... I'm not saying that.

He raises a fair point about what is the most haphazard team in the league. To watch the rockets on a nightly basis, it's hard to understand what guys are even going for. And some of that would be cleaned up if they just had more veteran guard play, for example, like someone to put people into the right spots.

But the amount of bickering that happens on the court between them is really disconcerting. Like these are guys who don't have trust in each other to be in the right spots to play off of one another. In part because the pieces don't fit very well yet. And maybe at some point they will and they'll prioritize. Okay, you know, Jalen Green and Jabari Smith Jr. Those are our guys and we're going to, you know, either sublimate or move on everyone else.

Maybe that will happen at some point. But we're not even at that point yet. We're at the like, let's roll it all out and see what we even have. And then we're going to have to start building habits basically from scratch after that. Here's what I'll say about the Rockets. One, you know, you guys know I'm on record. I like Jalen Green. I think he has the talent to do special things in the NBA.

I think he has tools that you just don't see as far as his explosiveness, his quickness on the ball. Like, I just think he's a special talent, even if he hasn't always flashed it. To me, I look at situations like Sacramento, OKC, even, And, you know, just situations where there are, or Utah, for instance, where teams that we were not expecting incredible things, they had an organizing philosophy, and they could win and look competent. And look, there's nobody on the team that's as good, obviously, as Shea Gilgis Alexander.

There's nobody on the team who's as good as De Aaron Fox is right now. But Deerrin Fox was Jalen Green before Jalen Green. okay and so like all I'm saying is I don't think they've been given the opportunity via the coaches staff and maybe they don't listen but to me guess what this what you get paid for bro I don't I don't feel like this bit their coaches have been some great shakes that's just my opinion I don't think anyone is saying that yeah like other than draymond green I don't think anyone on this podcast is saying the Rockets coaching staff is doing an incredible job more so that whether they're doing a good job or not, this is where the team is. And it's a team with

awful habits. I think Waz brings up a good point, though, because for a lot of these teams, you do need to factor in the infrastructure and beyond the coaching staff with the Rockets. At the very least, you have Fertita who has a reputation of not being willing to pay as much as perhaps other owners and is a new owner. And so maybe he just doesn't know what other teams have gone through in order to build the right structure around a young team case in point the very public flirting with James Hardin to come

back to the team that he openly like just slapped in the face on his way out of town in order to force a trade like that type of stuff is concerning to me and the contrast to that is it seemed like the Spurs who are fourth on my list who have the history at the very least of building something right

yeah and the thing is again I bring up O KC because even when Shay doesn't play. And OKC fans might be listening to this and say, our young guys are just exponentially better. I don't necessarily

know that that's true, but I'm just saying, like, they play like a basketball team. Yes. Okay? And you just can't say that about the Rockets. And to me, there's a lot of upside in just playing normal

and behaving more professionally. And so to me, I see like these young guys and I don't see something, you know, as cooked as some others, you know, as you guys might see it. That's all I'm saying. But I understand your point, obviously. Well, the Spurs

are an interesting counterpoint there too, because they do play like a basketball team. They just don't have very talented players. And I say that with all due respect to Kevin, like, to Kelton Johnson and Devin Vassell who are good players, they're not taking you where you need to

go. And maybe the 14 percent chance that you get Victor Webbenyama is enough to vault you into the class. But my problem with the Spurs and so I actually had them as the most dire situation on my list. I think we're all approaching this very differently. But for me it's this. We're looking at this

time frame. This playoff run plus the next three seasons. Who on the Spurs roster can we say we'll be there in three years? And that includes the coaching staff. Who is going to be here? That's fair.

Salina Gomez in the stands So you know what it is for me is and to take this back to Sam Hanky because he was such a genius for this they know they have to get talent in and they're going to do the steps that it takes to do so

and I have faith in the infrastructure that will be there when talent gets into the building right? And so that's why the Spurs, to me, it's like, okay, they finally, finally stopped with this folly of, oh, we're not going to trade Kauai for future stuff. We're going to get the best player possible. And we're going to keep DeMar de Rosa for two years. And it's like they've finally gotten rid of this folly that they need to be, quote, unquote, competitive.

And they're on their path. And when they do get talented guys in there, they're going to be learning the absolute. absolute apex of professional habits that you can find out there. And so I think they're going to get the requisite talent that it takes. And again, I can't stop saying this enough. Like, there's just no real dumpster fight. Because even the Spurs, whose talent-wise is just the cupboard is so bad. Their track record of making people into real NBA players is so unimpeachable, man.

Like, come on. It's definitely unimpeachable. I gave them the edge over the rockets for that reason, although I will point out that the track record is a little bit more mixed than probably you would think historically. So on the good side, you do have Kelvin Johnson, you have Devon Fasel and Sohan, who they picked ninth in last year's draft. I think is- What about Derek White? What about- Derek White was good. You know, DeJante Murray.

What about those guys? All good players. I don't know if any of them were necessarily stars, but they do have a knack for finding quality rotation. players in the middle of the draft. Unfortunately, recently, they had Josh Primo no longer on the team because of the sexual assault allegations. They picked him 12. That was a reach at the time even because he was so young. And also Lonnie Walker. They picked him 18th. I mean, pretty low in the draft, so you wouldn't expect much for him. But they just outright renounced him as opposed to giving him a second contract and maybe trading him elsewhere, which you don't see. And so those type of things

where I'm starting to worry, like, maybe they're getting a little too, maybe we're getting a little over our skis and just praising them assuming that they're just going to make something out of nothing in part because as we've said before I think the rest of the league is caught up to some of the revolutions that they've kind of brought to the league so like maybe they don't have as much of an edge in

the background in the front office than maybe they did in the past. I mean I think they have some edge. It's just not turning mid-first into stars necessarily with any kind of like great frequency. I can't expect him to do the Hawaii Tony Parker

Moni Genobi. Of course. But that's what it takes for a small market, though. Yeah, that's what it takes. Like, that's what it takes to go from literally being one of the worst teams in the NBA to, here's the question. When do the Spurs make the playoffs again?

If you had to pick a year, what year do you think it'll be? It depends on who they get. I can see them being in the playoffs in three years. You think so? Yeah. Why not? So if it's Webbenyama, would you say two?

I certain. They have a 14% chance of getting Victor Webbing. Maniama, 14%. Yeah, it's better than like, I don't know, the magic. You know? I just think, well, to the point,

they haven't have any like home run stars on their team. I guess Murray would be the closest thing to that. He's definitely getting paid and traded for. So this year's first round pick, this year's first round pick, which will probably be in the top three, will be in his third year.

And next years will be in their second, which will probably be in the top three again. I mean, And, you know, if they're as good as we know them to be at the ancillary stuff, I don't see why this couldn't be a 10 seed in three years. The guys they have now scale to be role players around a star. So if that is Wembe, if that is Scoot or whomever they pick, like I could see it working pretty quickly because of that.

Look, and again, these guys are crazy, talented guys. I'm just saying, like, if they get a jaw type, or Zion type in their third year, and they nail the role player stuff, I can see that kind of team being a 10 seed. Or are we saying like past playing? I don't know. But I can see that.

And that's the problem too. Like, it's so fucking easy to make the playoffs in the NBA now. Like, it really is. And so it's hard for me to be like, yo, it's impossible to see that. I don't think so. If they get very extremely talented guys in the next two drafts, they could be in the playoffs in three years.

It's not impossible to see it. It's more just like when you really start to put it together and think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't make it for three or four. At least it playoffs, like top eight actually in the seven game series, maybe four or five years. But, you know, again, and at the same time, this is the vegetables. You got to eat your vegetables, guys. Right. You know, you got to play with your food and do the Demar thing.

and that was just pure, stubborn, pop, pride nonsense. But now it's just what you got to do. That's it. You're going to be trash. So I had them at four, Rob had them at one. Was, where did you have the Spurs?

Spurs would have been my number three, number three. Also, with all due respect, they do have a roster that's full of like the seventh or eighth guy that would be your favorite player on your favorite team. You know, like, Zach Collins. Collins would be really fun to watch if he was on a contender, like Cada Bates job. These are guys who can be good contributing players.

They just don't have the stars. And they don't have a very clear avenue to get them in short order other than the draft. So hence our skepticism. I believe Doug McDermott is the top earner this season at a cool $14 million. So that should really crystallize everything. Was, who do you have at four? The Atlanta Hawks. Interesting.

Yeah. Because the reason why I say this is because I think that situation is very combustible. They've clearly empowered the coach. They have a superstar who's also empowered. And that's going to make for a toxic mix. And to me, it's probably going to lead to a Tray Young trade. And once they move Tray Young, this is going to be a rebuilding team. And then on top of that, in the meantime, I don't think they're going to be very good.

Right? And so for the next three years, it's going to be a power struggle between the superstar and the now ascendant new head coach. And then when that eventually everybody figures out that this is unworkable, they're going to be a bad team because they're going to have to start moving parts and start trying to start all over. And so to me, that's a bad situation for the next three years. I don't see them turning into, you know, the Utah jazz of, you know, Gordy and Roe. Rudy and Rodney Hood and George Hill. I don't see that happening for this team, which is a perennial 4-5 seed, giving people tough games, fun regular season squad, 50 wins, 52 wins at the high end.

Do you guys see that in the Hawks future? Because I certainly do not. It certainly doesn't help that the rest of the East is kind of stacked, you know? So the idea of them even being like a perennial 4-5 is tough. I just think that the bottom like Quinn Snyder does do enough to help normalize and professionalize your team and I do like okay

this is the hard part with Trey Young on the one hand Trey Young clearly immensely talented I have a lot of respect for him as a creator if they had to trade him if things really blew up and Dejante Murray is your starting point guard and the rest of this roster is like more or less as assembled plus whatever you get for Trey Young

would that team be that much worse than it is right now? Like would they would they just drop to the floor? I don't know. You know what? I don't know. But at the same time, like, what is, what are they going to accomplish if Trey Young doesn't just completely change as a player? And I don't see it happening.

His behaviors have been rewarded at every single turn. So why is it's hard for me to predict that Trey Young is going to be different just because Quinn Snyder's there. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. I think something traumatic is going to have to happen as far as his career is concerned

in order for him to change the type of superstar or star, all-star, that he wants to be. And it's hard for me to envision that happening here. Maybe you guys see it differently than me. I just think this thing is going to blow up the John Collins part where, you know, he made four threes the other night, which is a small miracle, but just hasn't been able to shoot since his finger got messed up. I, you know, perpetually on the trade block.

I just, the juju around his team just doesn't seem great. Yeah. And the other part of this is, are we sure that DeJante Murray will be the one to be leading the next generation of Atlanta Hawks? He doesn't feel like it. He only has one more year left on his deal. And so it's, it's possible. Probably not likely that we hear some

griping and or like indications about what's going to happen with him As soon as this summer. I agree with you guys. I think this is a very combustible situation. I have no idea what was going on with the Bogdan Bogdanovitch extension the other day as if they don't have already enough wings that they need playing time for. I think I'm just giving them a pass right now because I do want to see them with a new coach with a track record of building structure. I know. It's the type of thing where it's like, there's still a margin for error here and it could be cleaned up with the right person. And if Quinn doesn't have the effect that I think a lot of people are hoping that he does, then I'm ready to hit the eject button and the panic button. Look, was, we're suckers, you know. It doesn't really take a lot to fool us. Like a couple of shiny names, a vaguely talented roster and you're out of the bottom five situations in the league.

I'm a fan of Quinn Snyders. I think he's done an incredible job. his reputation around the league for the way that this guy prepares is second and none, right? Quinn Snyder is a good coach. People got to understand, man, being a good coach and having X's and O's, to a certain point, we overrate the hell out of it.

The main job is to communicate it in such a way that the players actually do it, and they do it with vigor and enthusiasm. I don't know that. that this guy's going to be able to do that with this particular group. I think that's totally fair. I think they do have enough permutations, though.

Like, Anyaka and Kangu is just sitting around like a good player who could be a part of a future team, even a bigger part than he is now. Sadiq Bay has been really solid for them since they traded for him. There's like enough guys where it's like, even if you do need to turn the page or reimagine what this roster is, you're not starting from nothing, right? Like, you do have guys in-house who are young enough

to be a part of whatever that is, Tray Young or not, Dejante Murray or not. We'll see how all of that unfolds, but I don't know. There's just enough here where I can't quite quit the Hawks yet. Right. And I think, again, I bring up, and we brought up Sacramento already. Like, that's a counter example of they get a new guy in there. They don't change all that much, but they just bring a new philosophy. But that philosophy gets embraced.

It gets a full-throated embrace from the most important players on the team. Like, I can't stress enough. If one guy is not bought into this new philosophy, it's not happening. It's going to be a malaise. It's going to be a bunch of dudes dragging their feet up and down the court. A bunch of weird comments in the press is going to be horrible. So, you know, I would love to see myself be wrong.

What I'm watching that with, I'm curious. Because as soon as I heard them say, hey, man, because everybody's like, why the fuck would Quinn Snyder take this job? Obviously, there's a good bag involved. And then the reporting slowly comes out. I was like, no, he's tapped in. He's got personnel decision. He's got this.

He's got that. I'm like, hmm. I've seen this go wrong before. So I don't have them on my list. Rob, you didn't have them on your list as well? Okay. So where are we at? Number three was the Hawks were what, four or three for you?

Four. And to be honest, I didn't rank them. Okay, great. Rob, who do you have three? So I actually haven't hit my number four yet, which is the Chicago Bulls. Okay, I have them two. They're tricky because on the one hand, Exhibit A, they've been the best defense in the NBA of the last three months.

I don't know what to make of that. I don't know how to make sense of it. They've done an exceptional job of walling off the paint. It seems like nobody can hit a three against them. Is that real? Sustainable, super sustainable. I'm not saying sustainable or not. They've certainly been better than I would have expected.

And in particular, the lineup with Beverly in there at the point that they've been rolling out has worked pretty well. Like that acquisition has worked as well as you could possibly have imagined. But another team where it's like, where are we going, right? You're out your first round pick this year because of the Voochievich trade. You're out potentially another first down the line because of the original DeRosen trade. DeRosen has been really good again and his game should age relatively well. but you can't expect him to be any better than this. And where you are right now,

you're already not going anywhere. So it's, you know, even with Levine coming on strong, even with some of the team, like, you know, signs of life from Pat Williams

and you're starting to see things kind of come together defensively for them. I just don't get it. I just don't get how they go from here to being a meaningful part of the NBA landscape. I think you forgot the most concerning part. That Lonzo Ball. The guy that,

like, really, professionalized the defense in the good first half they had last season. It's now going for his third surgery on his left knee. It is a cartilage transplant. His knee will literally be cadaverous. You know, like,

did you guys know this was a thing you could do that you could just get cartilage trans? I did not even know that was an option. I remember hearing it before. It's not like it was in my conscience, but when it got mentioned, I was like, I've heard this before. And I haven't been somebody who's always super diligent about like

guys getting procedures and like, okay, so how did this guy fare after the procedure? We did bad, the worst NBA contracts with Bill on his show. And Bill coined the term that is stuck with me since he said. He was like, is Lonzo's contract a bad contract or a sad contract? I was like, damn, yeah. It's a sad one, dude. Especially when you consider how much fun. We were having with that Bulls group when it first got rolling last season.

Yeah, this is turning into like House MD all of a sudden with Lonzo's career, which is like, it's not good. Number one on my list, by the way. Number one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I have him a two. Vucci Maine at center. And he's a free agent.

Like, what do you do? I think that's a prime Nerkich situation where they'll bring him back because they don't have another option. But it's not going to be good regardless of what they decide. By the way, Vucci Man might be. the key to this list, period. Because back when he was in Orlando, he would have been number one on everybody's, Orlando would have been number one on everybody's list

for this exact reason, right? Just like this rudderlessness of just like, oh my God, all of these guys, and what are they going to do? And it's a mess. And so, yeah, Vucci, man, is just, he just loves being on franchises that going nowhere fast, bro.

And somehow prime Nurkich destination just makes it only sadder. It's just, that's really the cherry on top for this situation. De Rosen's on expiring next season. And then you have Levine, who's locked in until 2026, 2027, when he has a $49 million player option. But you don't want him on a contract that long and that expensive,

considering his own injury history. So I don't know. This turned very quickly. One of the shining success stories of last season is now very troubling. Someone predicted this going to the season. I won't say who, but I think you guys can guess. I have at number three, the Charlotte Hornets. Did you guys have them anywhere?

I actually did not. They're going to chug along and be bad, be lotteries, get collect young talent, and more importantly, the worst owner in the NBA is finally selling the team. And so that's reason for optimism. I speak as a Mets fan, who reasons. I recently got rid of the Will Ponds for Bobby Axelrod in real life. I've never felt more optimistic about the team.

It's just people don't realize, man. It's the competitive advantage that we spend the least amount of time talking about in sports. And that's ownership, bro. You get competent ownership in there. This thing can change like this. And so Jordan's finally selling that team cashing out so you can smoke Cubans and drink tequila and, you know, never to be seen again. I think that's dope for them. Yeah, race some cars.

So I almost had them number one if it wasn't for the Jordan situation. That bumped them down for me. I don't know if you guys noticed this and you might have overlooked this because nobody's watching a Charlotte Hornet games, not even the people in Charlotte. because they're now selling tickets for $1 a game. 36 games played for Lamella Ball. Broke his ankle, which is not something you want to see from a talented spry, athletic young point card.

So we'll keep that. The Miles Bridges thing just completely derailed them. Second best player on the team seemed like he was going to be an adequate. Coming up this offseason, by the way. That's finally going to come to some kind of resolution this offseason. And what else do they have? They have Gordon Hayward's awful contract. BJ Washington's a restricted free agent.

Oh, that thing's expiring next year. And he's an incredible wing. What the? Wow. It's Lamello. It's Terry Rozier. And then what? And so, like, I tend to give sort of credit

to teams that have the burden hand that have the superstar already there. But, like, now this is the third year of Lamello. He got hurt. And I'm not, like, completely bullish on him being able to carry a team in the way that some other high-level picks are able to do. Yeah, I think of it a little bit the other way, where when Lamello has been out there, they've been closer to the, like,

magic Pacers level of competence, which is not great shakes. Look, I'm just saying, Lamello plus this roster is at that level. Healthier season of Lamello, potential lottery pick. We'll see what else happens in free agency as far as what they can bring in or potential trades.

new ownership situation. I'm not much more bullish on them than you are, but I'm slightly more bullish on them than you are. I'll take that over where the bulls are, where some of these more veteran teams are that they don't even have their lamello ball. They don't even have their young star. It's like at least we have the hope of this guy.

Right. Are there any other teams we haven't talked about on your list, was? Yeah, I had a pretty long list. I think the team, that's kind of looming here is the Warriors and that's because

none of this what yes none of their young guys none of their young guys okay they got Steph Curry and what when he dropped 50 they lose like that's got a matter like last week

listen these past two weeks these past two weeks have been a revelation and like honestly when Steph is incredible, they still lose. That has to matter that he's 35 and that's the case. And none of their young guys have panned

out at all. To the point where they've traded Wiseman, the number one, the Savior is gone. You know, I still like Kamenga. I think he profiles as a nice NBA player. But he, I mean, you're not going to count on him to take you to any heights

in the playoffs. Clay Thompson is getting worse by the day. I don't know. The Drey Mons situation with the contract and all of that. It feels like he's about to be gone. Looney has a contract situation. I don't. I don't know, y'all. I don't know why you would be optimistic.

I know this is like a 180 of me thinking they was going to win the championship. But this past week of the Wigan situation becoming even more dire and like, you know, you talk to people out there. Nobody thinks he's coming back this season, by the way. and whatever it falls out of that. The fact that, again, the fact that Steph is incredible, he's going to be worse than this, y'all. Like, that's just a fact.

He's incredible right now. He's MVP level right now. And they don't win. He's going to play worse. Way worse. Like, there's something to think about, in my opinion. That's why I had him up here. Yeah, I don't think we're optimistic.

It's just that there's 25 other spots they could be in on this list beyond the bottom five. You know? This is worst case scenario probably for the Warriors this season. And they're still six in the West. Like it could only get so bad as long as the best player probably in the NBA is on the court. These injury things, man, I don't know, bro. Like to me, this injury stuff has to matter when the age gets to be what it is.

I think we're even seeing it with LeBron. It's just like, all right, when he plays, he's excellent. but how often is he playing? And then, you know, with LeBron, his level of excellence just ain't what it used to be either. So even when he does put the cape on, it doesn't mean what it used to, right? And so, yeah, like, watch it's being like,

oh, well, they have Steph Curry. That shit ain't going to be enough if this other stuff isn't panning out. And again, none of the young guys who would be supplementing this issue have panned out in any major way. one of the worst runs of drafts in recent history. Like I think a lot of people following the true track.

I mean, Jordan Cool got a second deal, you know, and I think he would have got a second deal anywhere. Caminga, Weismanette 2. The wisemanette 2. That's just a killer. That's just a killer. And you know what? He seems like he's showing something at the very least in Detroit because he's able to

play through mistakes. I don't know if he'll ever be a good player. I think he's supremely talented and a huge body. see him failing outright. But like, man, like, I don't know if it was the context or the players they drafted or their development system or the resources they're putting toward their development versus what they were putting toward the actual team. But something was completely a miss there and I think it could be potentially disastrous. I think what OKC is shown and we'll get to them later is like, if you want to build your team through the draft, you actually have to

draft well and develop them. Otherwise, it's not going to work. And I think a lot of the teams we're talking about here haven't been able to do that. So, let's go to my number one now. We've been saving them, which is the Washington Wizards. Rob, where do you have them? I have them at number three. Okay.

To me, they're the classic case of a team that neither has a superstar, nor do they have any... Or young guys. All of their draft picks recently have been bad. And so, like, on the one hand, same with the Blazers and certain teams.

Like, yeah, you have to take your medicine. You have to build slowly. And methodically, all of their draft picks have kind of been with Hachamura, Avdia, Johnny Davis, who's been awful 10th pick in the draft, nowhere to be seen. Kisbert, not great. Now, Christops for Zingas, shown a little bit in Washington this year, probably their best player. Kyle Kuzma, solid player, never saw him as a number three on a good team. But like, here he is, right?

Both are free agents. If you want them to come back, you're going to have to overpay them. and then you have Bradley Beal making one of the biggest contracts in the NBA. This is the quintessential case of a team that's going nowhere and isn't bad enough to bottom out in order to get better. Yeah, and even one that if you were to say move on from Bradley Beal and find him a new home on a contending team, I don't think he gets you the return that some of these other stars do,

both because of the size of his contract, some of the reputation stuff around the league, some of just like where he is as a player right now, which is he's very good. I'm sure some desperate team will give up a considerable amount of good players and assets for him, but it's not the kind

that's going to vault you immediately into some kind of playoff contention. Like, they're going to have to tear down to build up if they end up going that direction at all. Yeah, and I just want to say to be clear, I'd rather be the Warriors than the Wizards, but I'm still worried about them. I'm just saying, like, the Wizards,

the Bradley Bill part where, like, is he even an all-star player? And he's actually been pretty good at Steph Curry money. Yeah. Yeah, he's like, he had a bounce back. Is this version of Bradley Bill an all-star player at Steph Curry bread? Probably just outside, honestly. He's probably qualified to be like three, like your three, like Drew Holiday is,

and a very good team. Right. Okay, so there you go. And so that's why to me this is just, this is so dire. And the ownership portion of this has to matter because Ted Lee, on this guy is talk about mismanagement. If there were any recourse for being a piss poor owner, this guy would have been fired decades ago, right?

He's just so bad at this. And just the idea that, you know, if the Wizards were the ninth seed or whatever this shit, yes, let's run this back forever. Let's never stop this. Let's do this. Bradley Bill, greatest wizard of all time.

Let's do this for the rest of our lives. And, you know, Kuzma's coming up on a deal. Like, I wonder what even happens with that right there. I don't know. I don't know how you enjoy this, man.

It's dicey. You mentioned the young guys. This is nasty work. Right. All right. Why don't we take a break? And then we'll talk about the best team. in the future rankings.

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will, but you just don't want to put them on this list. Wait, you don't have the Milwaukee bucks on your list. You're not having the bucks. You are, you are, you are a sick, sick, sick man. The bucks are out five firsts, eight seconds, and Janus has a player option in 2026. They have Janus out to Dekupo. That's it. Yeah. And the thing is, and the thing is Justin, the reason why it matters that it's Janus, it's because it's so clear what you have to do for teams to be good around him. Get minimal level of shooting

a decent amount of defense. You're going to be good. Straight up. So Chris Middleton is a free agent this off season. Most likely it will be. He has a player option. He's 31. Drew Holiday has a player option for 2024, 25.

He's 32. Rick Lopez. 34 due for a contract this year. This team is getting old fast too, which is another part of this. I think the bucks are going to be great as long as they have Janus, but I think it's going to be increasingly difficult

from here on now. But just rewind, the first part of that sentence, the bucks are going to be great as long as they have Janus. And they're going to have Janus. They're going to have Janus. They're going to have yon. Honestly, I found this exercise,

the top five situations to be incredibly difficult. They all have caveats. They all have huge questions. the bucks are the number one team on my list. And it's very simple. If you are the favorite to win the title in one season and you have Janus under contract through 2025, you're on the list.

Things change so quickly, man. I don't know how you could just assume three years from now that like it's going to be the same way. I feel pretty confident on Janus. I feel pretty confident. Janice is going to be an all-time great, perhaps 20 best players ever player level. Oh yeah.

I think Janice is going to be great, but like, are we certain he's going to be there? I mean, he's been loyal thus far, but like he's had comments where he's like, yeah, we'll see down the road. And I think that's like a totally reasonable thing to say. I'm not, like, dogging him for the contract for the next three years. No, well, so player option 2026, the summer of 2026, which means that if things go poorly, it happens the year before that. So like, these things fall apart very quickly. And so if it does, I see him potentially looking elsewhere. I don't think that's like unfair to say.

It's not unfair to say. I just look at the other situations, even among the elite teams. And it's like, who do you feel most confident about that they are going to be a contender in two years? Just wait for my number one. Let's start going through it.

Let's start going five to one because I've already jumped my list. We've already gotten my number one off the top. Who do we have at number five? You sure you want me to start? Because this isn't going to be good for you. I'm terrified. I have the Orlando.

magic. What? Okay. I mean, just stop. I did, I did consider them. In fairness,

I also considered them as a candidate, but they did not make the list. Never. They don't meet the criteria. I think they are probably the best gross stock in the NBA

right now. So they have Paulo, clear-cut rookie of the year, even though, like, I think Jalen Williams is making a bit a late push for it,

but I think it kind of obscures Paulo just being like a 20, like, five-and-five guy for an entire Ripple. season. I think he's a shirt. He's a guy. He's a guy. He's a guy. Franz

Wagner. Awesome. He's a guy. Clearly a number two. So you have like two potential cornerstone. Clearly a number two. I think he's I think he's a fringe all-star at worst going forward. Okay. You have nothing so hold on, hold on, hold on. So he's

clearly a peak Chris Middleton type. Are you saying? I don't know what he'll be. But like, I think, yeah, I think he's the type of player I can see making like two All-Star games down the road if the magic are good enough. Okay. I think that's fair. Continue with your spiel.

Yeah, I'm just... Nothing but an ocean of cap space, which they have up to this point used primarily just to take salary dumps. But you're in Florida. It's not an awful market. And no state taxes. Let me just remind you. It's why people foolishly thought that Kevin Durant would once sign there. Do you remember this?

was like Al Horford and Kevin Durant, Michael and Orlando because the no state taxes and they're just like chill guys. Yeah, that was the thing for a little while. And they currently have the fifth best, I believe, lottery odds. So they're going to get somebody else here. Like,

hollow, Franz Wagner, lottery pick, Wendell Carter, Jr., and whoever the fuck, Markle Foltz is good again. Like, Jaylen Suggs has not been good, which is like my one reason for concern that like some other picks haven't been there, but they have a nice core here

and I can see them being very good very quickly. At the risk, at the risk of just like spoiling this entire bit, can you just give us your one through five so I know who you didn't pick? Let's just do that because we've been, you know, we don't have that much time, but let's just hear your one through five, please,

because this is absurd. It's a little all over the place here. So four, I actually have the Sixers. Yeah, deserving. So they haven't been under contract. And I trust Mori, to build around him even if Hardin goes. Like, they quietly, if Hardin leaves,

Harris is on expiring next year, and they could all of a sudden just be the prime players for like the next star to come and play with him. So I think like, so yeah, and then Maxie, et cetera. Celtics at three, similar reason. I mean, we can get into the Jalen Brown stuff, but clearly a lot of potential there. Two, I have the Grizzlies who once we get past

this John Morant stuff, I think people will recognize that Like, they have an incredible feeder system around Jha and all of their picks. So they're due for a superstar trade sometime soon. We'll see if we get it. Number one, I have the Oklahoma City Thunder. I mean, I love the Thunder. This is a lot. This is a lot, justice.

So let me make the case. So the one thing I favored above all else is having a superstar, young superstar under contract. Like Janus. who is out way before Sheigel's Alexander. Or the three-time MVP? What? Nicole Yokic. Okay, so you want me to make the counter for the Nuggets?

The Nuggett. The counter for the Nuggets is... Hold on. Let's hear the Thunder case first, and then we'll get to the rebuttals. Oh, my God. So, Shea is a top 10 player. He's 24 years old. Yeah. He's scoring like 40 points a night.

on the regular. Like clearly a guy, if not an MVP candidate, maybe this season, probably too soon, but definitely next season. And everything they've done around him has been good. They, like, can we just talk about how remarkable it is that they nailed probably literally every draft pick to the point where like a Chet Homer, not playing? Nobody cares about it because all of their other draft picks are good.

Like you want to talk about... The future is bright. Yes. Everybody wanted to like just celebrate. right the Pelicans because they're so good at drafting, yada, yada, yada. Look at what they did after Zion in that draft. He's so-how managed to get a pelicans. Dig. This is a miracle.

That's the guy is good, man. That's the comp, though, right? That is the clear comp of a team that was on the rise. Oh, we're so excited about them, yada, yada, yada. And it kind of has fallen apart. We don't know about Zion. But after they drafted Chet, a guy who hasn't played, you have Jalen Williams, a guy we just said,

could be the rookie of the year if things break right from, probably not, but we'll see. The other Jalen Williams, quality rotation player. Yeah. Who's Manjeng, we don't even know about. No one gives a shit because all these other guys are already good. The door contract is good. Kenrich William, a former

Pelican, I might add, that came via the Stephen Adams trade. Quality rotation player who just happened to get hurt. Like, everything they've done is right. They have eight first round draft picks coming to them, plus two swaps from teams that are almost assured to be bad going forward. Like, I'm not bullish on the Clippers future,

especially as we record this, Paul George got hurt again tonight. I just think, like, this is how you build a team from nothing into something. And I don't see how it can get derailed. So three years from now, yes, I can see them in the title convention. They're, like, they're very good, incredibly talented. As you said, like, well-run organization.

This has to be all predicated on, the last year. You're not taking the first two years into account because the way I did it is who do I think is going to have the highest win totals for the next three years? They're not in my list. But I respect this obviously way more than the magic situation. Because that is just absolutely berserk. If we just want to do power rankings of the current best teams, we could do that. But I didn't think that was all that interesting. No, I think the gris absolutely have to be in there. not just because of the core being so young, they haven't used a single,

the powder still dry. They haven't used anything of their future stuff to try to make this team better in the immediate. So they got all of these young guys, plus they haven't used any of their trade assets. They got to be up there. To me, the Nuggets are about to have the three-time freaking MVP. Absolutely nothing about his MVP-ness

is going to change over the next three years. They have Joellen Bede? Ha, ha, ha, ha. We'll say that. Don't touch it. Just let it sit. Absolutely. Absolutely nothing will change.

So the nuggets are up there for me. The Celtics, obviously. So to me, those are my, actually my top three, were the Nuggets, Celtics, gris, just because the Nuggets, guys around Yokic are so much younger than the guys that are around Janis. However, that's the top three.

Bucks, obviously, number four. My number five is the Cavs. Yeah. The cabs. clearly. Their young talent is way better than Orlando's. And as a matter of fact, I think Donovan Mitchell is just as good as Shay. And then you talk about the guys that, like, what they've proven on the court already over the next three years, these guys are all going to be better. And so the calves to me are my number five team. Okay. I'm going to give Rob the floor here

because you haven't talked in a while. But like, if you want me to make the counter examples for for the calves and the nuggets, just let me know. I mean, I think the Cavs, their four best players will all be awesome during this window. Yep. I agree. They all fall into the pitch you made for Shea in terms of like targeting young stars. They have Mitchell at 26. They have Mowgli who's 21.

They have Garland who's 23. Jared Allen, who's probably going to be their fourth best player when all of a sudden done 24 years old right now. They're going to be good throughout this entire time frame we're talking about. And right now, walking into this podcast, they are the number one team and point differential. this second. They're going to be playing meaningful playoffs. And they have no small forward. They literally have nothing at small four.

And yet give them a fun, tough playoff run and one mid-level signing. And they're going to be really formidable. Where is that fourth player or that fifth player coming from? Is my counter. Figure it out. A mid-level sign. You get a PJ Tucker level acquisition like Milwaukee did in the door. Everything changes.

So the calves are out. five first round draft picks and one swap. Mitchell has a player option in 2026. I'm just saying like, I agree that the Cavs have a bright future ahead of them. I love all their young players. But like there are these mitigating factors where I'm wondering like,

where are these other players coming from? And to this point, the feeder system hasn't been producing much. If anything, the draft picks have been bad and they haven't really made the sort of moves on the fringes that really amount to anything. Everyone was very excited about Ricky Rubio. That didn't work out. So where's where is my like like confidence in the front

office to get everything right around me. So to me, all they have to do with that three position is get a three at the level of what Denver did to get Bruce Brown or KCP in there. They just got to do something like that. So the player that every team wants and needs, they just have to get that guy on a very cheap contract. Okay. Sounds good. Hey, hey, Justin, what are the Orlando Magic need It's absurd. It's just this. What do they need? They need a couple of players.

Yeah, sure. The cabs have a bunch of players, right? Like, it was just last year people were calling this kid Kevin Garnett. And now of a sudden the magic are way better. Like, it's just crazy to me. Like, they're young guys. Even Garland, who I've realized is small. I think he's a special player, right?

And these guys are going to be better than it. They're not going, like, there's no universe where Evan Mobley is worse right now than he's going to be in the next three years. Like, they're going to be incredible. And they just got to get like a couple of things. The things they need to do are on the fringes. Yeah. Like, to me, this is a no-brainer to me with the cabs. They're going to be amazing.

And the thing about Donovan Mitchell and his free agency, until I see somebody walk away from a drastic overpay. And if all the, all they have to do is overpay. pay him, I just don't see why I should be worried about his status on the team. They just have to give him a Carl Towns deal. They just have to give him a freaking Bradley Bill deal and he will

be there. And so this thing is sewn up as far as I'm concerned. I think we should clip and save that one for two years down the road here when we're doing this on our Patreon. What's going to happen to the first two years before that when the

calves are like 50 games better over that band than the magic. I think the calves are a good team that I am concerned about taking the leap to the great to being a great team. And I haven't seen anything. And considering an evaluation of their raw resources, that would lead me to believe that that is going to be an easy path. Okay.

What about Denver? Because they are, they are probably still the Western Conference favorites. Their best player and really all of their core players are still within the age bracket. Justin. So they have three max contracts, historically a franchise that does not want to pay in order to build around those contracts. They're quietly out three first down drafts because they've made the moves. That made sense at the time in order to get guys like Aaron Gordon in. Totally.

Michael Porter, Jr., like how many discs does he have in his back at this point? Playing the best season of his NBA career right now. Also, crouching about the coaching staff and how much he's playing down the street. stretch in some games. Hey, I'm not against a coach and change. Deservedly so. Okay. A coaching change would be an upgrade for this team

depending on the coach they bring in there. Okay. These hockey lineups and all kinds of crazy shit. Mike Malone's still doing. We don't need this guy in there forever now. Listen, that could be an upgrade. That's to me, that's upside we're talking about. Sure.

Yeah, sorry. I just don't like Mike Malone. Jamal Murray, also injury concern, hasn't fully rounded back into form. Sure. And after years and years of draft successes, like where is the cavalry coming from? Like they've had to go outside.

That guy doesn't even play all the time. Mike Malone is not, I keep telling y'all, Mike Malone is not optimizing this group. That's not my opinion, man. I just think that's facts. When you watch what he does with these lineups and the way he's jerking people around,

the rotations is just ridiculous. But you're sleeping on the nuggets, man, as usual. They are a bird in the hand championship contender built around the two-time MVP who's still pretty young. I get it. But I just worry long-term if some of these things start to matter more and more, especially as like, you know,

the sons are going to have a full season hopefully cross your fingers of Kevin Durant next year. Like, as we said, the Grizzlies aren't going anywhere. The Warriors, if they don't fall apart next season become the worst team in the NBA, presumably going to be there. I just,

I don't know. Like, I don't think, I don't see an easy path to automatic title contention for the Nuggets and all these mitigating factors. The title contenders right now. Yes. And they're going to be a title contender next year. Maybe. This is crazy. Maybe.

I can't. This is crazy. Why do you guys just assume that what's happening now is going to happen a year or two years? No, I just assume Nicola Yokic is going to be on this team and he's going to be freaking great. Sure. And that has led to like a bunch of good but not great teams. I mean, they went to the Western Conference Finals. If the Orlando Magic get to the Eastern Conference finals in the next decade.

And been kicking their asses up and down the court ever since. When I'm a Clippers fan? I think you, I think. it's very dangerous in this and very attractive in this exercise to look like three or four years out and say who's going to be the best team then. You said the next three years.

All of those seasons matter. And we know for certain that the Nuggets are going to be at least a playoff team immediately, probably a contender vying it in the later stages of the playoffs immediately with a young group. And yes, they have huge questions to answer,

maybe more than any other contender. And there could be a lot of potential for high stakes change in Denver, whether it's the supporting cast, whether it's Michael Malone, anyone but Yokic could potentially be gone. But they have Yokish. And the Bucks have Yonis, and the Sixers have Embed. And those guys are in the primes of their careers.

And that's what you need. That's what teams like the magic are hoping beyond hope that Palo Bancaro can ever be even remotely as good as these guys. This is craziness. This is crazy. This is magic shit just, this is killing me. I just love how we go through the NBA season every year. And superstars are playing on nine different.

teams a year later. James Harden, prime example. And you're just like, oh, this is cute. This is going to happen in perpetuity. And nothing is going to change. I would have never projected out three years that the Nets would be some great team for the, no shot. Nobody would have ever did that.

I honestly, like, if among all these stars, I assume Yokic would be the most likely to stay put in Denver. But like, again, like, stuff around him that like I'm not 100% sure of. And I think I weighed some of the mitigating factors probably a little bit more. And I overestimated perhaps like potential an asset building, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, it's fair. And like that's what makes this exercise fun is thinking about how those things trade off. Right.

In particular, the Bucks conversation, not only are they an old team, but they also don't have the picks to replenish it. So why don't you go through five through one, Rob? for me it's five Cleveland Cavaliers four Philadelphia 76ers three Denver Nuggets to me the Nuggets and the Sixers are pretty interchangeable it's just a matter of the nuggets are like a little younger and they don't have both the combination hardened age and flight risk question so I gave them a little bit of benefit of the doubt

two I have the Celtics and one I have the Bucks you literally just listed the five best teams in the NBA I mean you don't think the cabs are in like the 20 best teams in the NBA I don't know. Like, those are, the best teams right now have young superstars. So, like, that's what you need to contend. That's what everyone is trying to find. I'm sorry, it's a boring list, but it's a boring list for a reason because it's right. Yeah, these are the five best seasons. Let's just go to the standings and just put them up there.

Wise, you have anybody else. That's prep work, baby. That's how, that's how we do it around here. Um, no, I had nugs, so. politics, gris, bucks, cabs. Sixers, I guess, yes. Joelle is on the level of the best players in the league. I just, you know, I just look at

the Hardin situation. I'm just like, man, like, are they going to be good next year? Like, it's just tough. Like, I, I'm anxious to see what they do in the playoffs with James Harden. Can't hook guys for fouls. And Tobias Harris actually has to dribble the ball.

And, like, I'm anxious to see what they do in the playoffs. I'm always antsy about what the sixers are doing. But they were nipping on the heels of everybody on this list, of course. Sure, sure. But that was it. Nobody else got considered for, like,

yo, the next three years, these teams are going to be strong as hell. Can we dig into a team we haven't really talked about much yet who probably at least deserves the hypothetical? Are you guys in the Kings? No, I'm going to say the Phoenix Suns.

Oh, okay. Because the Kings, I think are sixth in the rankings. I think the Kings do deserve consideration. with the Kings, there's a little bit of like, this is the Cinderella season. The year after can be rough sometimes. So like, let's wait and see with them. I agree. The suns are tough because, okay, like for the next three seasons or even two seasons, would you rather have, say, Embeddeed Harden Maxie or Durant, Booker, Aden? And that's not even counting Chris Paul. Like, that's treating Chris Paul as an age-related wildcard.

That's an interesting conversation. And I think what bumps the sun's out is like the back two years could get really ugly just for age reasons. But, I mean, that's a team that could win the championship and maybe deserves a place in this conversation because of that alone. So to me, I compare them to the Cavs because I see

Booker and Spider-Mitchell as they play the same exact position. And I think it's a push. It depends. It's a matter of preference. Some people might like Booker more. I happen to like Spider-Mitchell a little bit more.

because I just feel like he has more downhill capability. But the people around them, it's young pups and old fogies. I'm going to run with the, if we're going to take this out to three years, I'm going to run with the young pups, man, for sure. Aside from a guy who's constantly injured, even if he's one of the best players we've ever seen. Chris Paul is cooked. He's dumb.

And Diomre Aiton is the picture of inconsistency. right? And even when he's doing his thing, like, is he really that much better than you know, the bigs in, on the Cavs? I don't think so. Is he way better than Jared Allen even at his best?

No. So, nah. Nah, Phoenix, you don't make this list. You don't qualify. Rejecting your application. Go back to your country. I also consider the Nets, if only because they

have the short position on the Suns' future. And I do wonder how much they could leverage that. I think they'll have difficulty in this three-year span trying to find a superstar to fill the void of a Kevin Durant, but they do have the optimal context for any superstar that does want to play in New York,

which is interesting. I also consider the Knicks. Calm, yeah. I did consider the Knicks as well for similar reasons. Like, I do think market muscle has to play a factor here. The Knicks have been competent for long enough and they have young guys now. Unfortunately, they also have Dolan.

So that kind of keeps them off the list for me. So who are our consensus teams? Is it just the Celtics and the Sixers? For you and I? Sixers didn't make my team. You didn't have the Sixers on your list? Sixers is, no, they're on the list, but they didn't make the top five.

That's the list. Top five. Yes, we're doing top five. No, they made honorable mention. They didn't make my top five. Oh, Bucks is not, I don't think anybody. Oh, I think. think the gris are the only unanimous

I don't have them oh wow damn why not the gris I think just like some of the variability honestly like a lot of like half court offense questions also huge injury risks also team building questions about like how you plug you know if you're going to upgrade the Dylan brook steven adam spots

how do you do that without sacrificing the identity of your team they're close I mean they're a worthy entrant into this conversation they just got nudged out by the calves for me yeah the grizzlies like time to make their big swing is coming up here. Like the deadline was one of the inflection points for that and then maybe the soft season. And then it gets increasingly tricky because Bain is due for an extension.

You got to figure out what you want to do with Brooks. So like, yeah, they can be incredible, but they do kind of have to do something in order to make that happen. So that's why I have them too. And honestly, if Morant wasn't going through what he was going through now, I probably would have put them one. It makes sense. Like they have a lot of really good still developing players.

Yeah. anybody else we want to talk about here I consider the jazz just because they have nine picks due to them plus the pick swap Pelicans are due to them slowly only three picks and three swaps coming up Zion has a nice cool

tattoo but isn't playing so that's fun well there's actually been an update on that front while we've been recording that apparently will be re-evaluated in four weeks that apparently Zion has been cleared to return to on-court activity but to your point he will be re-evaluated

in two weeks. So he could practice. Great. I'm so sick of the way people tried out news updates these days. The medical updates. This is getting ridiculous. LeBron being reevaluated in three weeks. It's been three weeks. Do we know anything else about when he's coming back? No. Dennis Schroeder dropping Germany jokes. This is crazy. This is crazy. All right. Why don't we wrap it there? This is a long one. But thank you to anyone who stuck through here just to find out how bright the future is in Orlando. Thank you to Edward O'Campo on production. We'll see you next time.