The Ringer NBA Show - Future Power Rankings, with Big Wos | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 6, 2026

No J. Kyle Mann today so Justin and Rob are joined by an old friend Big Wos! After last week’s show where the guys looked at the teams with the bleakest futures in the league this time they look at the five teams with the brightest future. (00:00) Intro (13:22) Tommy Hilfiger ad break (15:00) Thoughts on the Nuggets (22:23) New York Knicks (27:42) Boston Celtics (34:39) Jayson Tatum (37:39) Minnesota Timberwolves (44:15) Detroit Pistons (52:10) Charlotte Hornets (55:46) Indiana Pacers (1:02:34) Oklahoma City Thunder (1:07:48) San Antonio Spurs Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob MahoneyGuest: Wosny Lambre Producers: Victoria Valencia and Isaiah Blakely Production Supervision: Ben Cruz and Conor Nevins Additional Production Support: John Richter and Chris Wohlers The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Explore more at https://tommy.comTommy HilfigerTommy Hilfiger USA offers modern, sophisticated styles for women and men including apparel, handbags, footwear, underwear, fragrance and home furnishings with free shipping available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney, no J. Kyle, man today, but we were able to scrap together enough Ruples and Kroners to get our guy Big Was back on the pod. What's up, buddy? I'm good, man. I'm happy to be back on and be on Netflix and that's right. It's my Netflix debut, so I'm super excited. Let's not pretend you're not already TV zone, Big Was. Oh, well, come on. Come on. I just, you know, I only made my NBA TV debut with the association. Shouts to MJ and my guy, coach Fizz, my new best friends.

It was such a seamless promo. I was expecting you'd do like the Times as well, like 7 Eastern, 3 Pacific. So I don't know the times or else I would have. There you go. But glad to have you back. What's been going on? How have you been? Man, it's crazy.

Just working a lot. Like our cadence is three shows a week, which is different from what we were doing. And also, like, I actually go into that studio every single episode, which, again, is a lot different from what we do. So it's like... So a normal job. Yeah, exactly.

Not even that. Three-fifths of a normal job. That's what I was about to say. I was just like, man, this is what the grunts do. But yeah, it's been dope, man. The team over there is dope. Paul and Danny are great guys. They're, like, super professional and super courteous,

and they still, like, have a deep passion for the NBA, which is a lot of fun. And then, you know, let's just say talking to you guys about hoops is a little bit different from talking to those guys about hoops. You know what I mean? Like, Paul, NBA Central, clip us. I think it was two days ago. And Paul was like, yeah, Trey,

Trey Young's just as good as Halliburton. And I was like, oh, my God. Lord, have mercy. When I saw clips of you for a live show, I guess you did during All-Star, and it was with, like, Fabulous. I was like, a little different when we did the live shows with, like, Kyle. In Indian Avenue? Yeah, meeting Jim Jones and Mayno and Dave East.

Yeah, that was a little bit different than our white American player draft in indie. So, yeah, it's just a little, uh, different in tone, but honestly, if anything, I've grown in appreciation for the shit that JV was doing up here with me and Rob. Amen. In terms of trying to wrangle the different guys where I'm just like watching, you know, Danny jump in and cut Paul off in the middle of something. Like, no, I had just set him up to do something.

And, you know, so I've gained a certain appreciation for JV. even reading, doing my little exercise for today. I was like, you know, this topic is a lot more interesting than I gave you ready for. Look at this. Point guards loving point guards. Unfortunately, I don't think Rob has gotten there yet, but maybe when he goes and does his podcast with Mano, he will come around. One of these days. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, for sure.

It certainly does. Likewise was. And, you know, we've had to grow and change, too. we haven't done a white American player's draft. I couldn't tell you why. I don't know what changed around here, but we can't really do that anymore. I wholly disagree,

especially with the way things are going in our society. You got to love yours, guys. Stick closer to the ones that you love. Well, we wanted to bring you back for one of our tried and true formats, which is the future power rankings. I knew something was different when we were talking about it beforehand. You're like, Oh, so we're doing all 30 teams.

I was like, no, no, no. We're only doing five of these, but I appreciated the effort. We actually did our flip side of this, the no power rankings last week with Kyle, which you typically do. Did you want to weigh in there before we get to the good teams? Did you want to sift through the shit with us just quickly? I mean, for me, the team that comes to mind is the Bulls. And it's because I was talking to my buddy Scott, who, you know,

He does a lot of independent sports media. But now he's kind of just focused on, he's a Chicago-based guy. But now he's just kind of focused on the Bears. And what he said to me, how he described his fandom, he said the Rinesdorps have turned me into a casual. And I was like, God damn. That is the state of affairs. If you're a Bulls fan, just the rudderlessness of that whole situation

where it's like, what are they doing? what are you doing? And it seems just like, the thing that that kills it is just the apathy that it feels like their management has. Like, they just, they don't care. It's not like Dolan who used to meddle and be like, let's get the most expensive,

you know, splashedest name. This is definitely going to work. Like, you could tell that he actually cared and was invested and was willing to, like, overpaid a hell out of Larry Brown and Phil Jackson and all of these figures. Whereas with the Rinesdorfs, it's just like, they just don't give a damn, which is, that's to me is the saddest, sad sack situation in the NBA right now. Yeah, you can't be cheap and uninspired.

It's just not going to get you really anywhere, and that's why the Bulls consistently go nowhere at all. Also, you know, it's crazy to watch Charlotte do this as soon as MJ leaves. It just kind of shows you, like, ownership is probably the most underrated event. slash disadvantage in the NBA. Having competent ownership or ownership with some level of a vision and some commitment to long-term success and a willingness to try to see it through

is so invaluable. And it's something we don't talk about enough. Just having ownership that isn't horrible, you know. And yeah, MJ is gone. and this thing just, it's out of here like a rocket ship. Seriously. So the race car success that he's had of late, doesn't change your mind about his viability as an NBA owner?

You know what? You know what all that tells me, though, is that he probably went into that with a lot more humility in terms of I don't know what I'm doing here and I'm going to trust people who do. Whereas with basketball, like, no matter who MJ hires, like, is he really going to think?

they somehow know more than him about winning NBA basketball? That's right. Yeah, that's actually how I feel about podcasting. That's why I'm going to get into poetry. So I won't be as critical when people just don't appreciate my bits here as much. So, yeah. Are you a free verse guy or what do you think structurally? All haikus.

Actually, I'm bringing them back. I really love that for you. Yeah. All right. Future power rankings, we're looking from this point forward. we've been doing this for a while. I think we'd done no power rankings for about five years. This is probably five or six years in the making.

I have to say, though, circling back to the no power rankings was you missed the classic Mahoney voice situation. A Mahoney misdirect, I like to call it, because you were like on the last one, oh, didn't you have the bucks in the bottom five one time? Yeah. And it turns out they were fine. That was the flip of what actually happens.

You had the bucks in the top five. All because of Yannes. Yes. And then they won the championship. No. I don't know what to tell you. That was after the championship. I'm looking at the standings right now.

Not doing too well. See, I also think you had them in the bottom five. Mahoney in 2020 had the bucks in the top five. I don't remember what year it was. But last for the no, this year's no power rankings. He was like, oh, didn't you have the books in the bottom once? I was like, no, that doesn't sound right. And in fact, you had.

them at the top. So I'm just, I'm setting the record straight here. I just want everyone, including Guas, who's completely like, just thrown into the situation. No, this is excellent because most podcasts don't have this longevity. That's right. Where a take from four years ago can actually be, you know, like, referenced, right? Most of this stuff is so ephemeral and just like, all right, this is going to be cooked

in four days, if not less, whereas with the future power rankings, hey, now we can go back and be like, hey, such and such had a good point, or such and such was a complete idiot. That's right. We leave no acts on ground around here. You know, we're going to write it all the way to the hilt, basically. So, Justin, ultimately thank you for it sounds like praising my correct take that I backdoor it into being your bad take.

No, you're wrong at every stop. Having the Bucks top five in 2022, looking at 2026 was probably not the right decision. Probably. I'm at peace with it. So eat it. I was actually saying we need like a Wikipedia, like a specific Wikipedia for our podcast so people can just track all of these things. And it would be the most boring thing that five people would interact with.

But there is lore here. There is legacy. There is certainly lore. Is it for anybody? I honestly don't know. No, I'm not going to lie sometimes because I'm so engaged still with Ringer's social media stuff. Obviously, I follow all you guys and all the Ringer accounts.

And then I've seen like a pie. I've seen the pie joint pop up and a ping of nostalgia instantly hit. We're up to the pie part of the season. It's like our version of the carousel for Mad Men, but it's a pie. Exactly. Well, while we're talking social media engagement and dessert, was I have questions about why you were thirst posting ice cream at 8 a.m. this morning. So I took that picture last night.

Was it two nights ago, I left my house at 10.30 p.m. to go to Ralph's to get ice cream. But in order to counterbalance it, I got light ice cream. You know what I mean? And this joint is 300 calories a pint. Like, that's Ben and Jerry's equipment. equivalent is 1,200. Okay? Like, come on now.

A scoop and a half is 80 calories. So I was like, man, this is actually good. So I took a, it actually tastes like ice cream. So I took a picture, but then I forgot. And I remembered this morning because somebody, I don't know, it came up somehow in one of my other group chats. And so I posted it. But I wasn't having it at 8 in the morning.

No. Just wanted to make sure. Not that, you know, nothing to be ashamed of it. What I did have at 8 in the morning, Rob. was a leftover shrimp taco from. Okay, that's weird. Halisco Marisco, which has a truck not far from my place. Shrimp as breakfast.

Oh, yeah. It was, I don't know. Oh, yeah. It was excellent. So there was one taco, guys. What do you want for me? Is this all part of your training regimen? Well, I mean, it's one taco.

That's what I'll have literally for breakfast, right? Yeah. So that's all I'll be eating today. and then at 12 p.m. I meet him my guy Demetrius at EOS. And it's a free promo for him. EOS? Yeah, it's like,

it's this new gym in the Beverly Center. I see. This is not cheap anybody that's trying to join. I bet. Stick to Planet Fitness or Crunch or whatever you're doing because this is not, not cheap. But, you know, it's not far from the house. The L.A. Fitnesses over here is it's a nightmare, bro.

When you talk about... I've been to that one. American Mile. Miracle Mile, Beverly Hills, 18th Street. You can't get a machine. It's ridiculous. And it's old. And I'm just like, yeah, my L.A. Fitness in the Valley and the Burbs, I was good.

I was great up there. Everything was new. Nobody was barely there. It was just elderly people. It was perfect for me. And then I moved down here. And I was like, no, I got to get a new gym. So now I'm over at the EOS trying to lose weight.

in one swoop, the LA commentary, the shout out plug in Waz tradition, and also the flex of this is a great plug, but you can't even afford it. You can't afford it. I mean, it doesn't get better than that. I want to be transparent with our viewership, guys. Yeah.

All right, why don't we take a quick break? When we come back, we'll get into the future power rankings. This episode is brought to you by Tommy Hilfiger. Here's what happens when West Coast relaxation meets modern, prep in Tommy Hillvigger's spring collection. Think light wash denim and new relaxed silhouettes paired with oversized trenches and chore coats with heritage-inspired touches. Then take those rugby and polo shirts you love and elevate them with rich cable textures and new Tommy crests. And when you throw in easy, breezy light layers and linen essentials, you've got laid back sophistication.

Explore more at tommy.com. All right. Any just big picture thinking about this, Rob, anything that jumps out to you about doing this as opposed to the past couple years? Yeah, you're going to hate my list. I can already sell. Just by your reactions to this exercise and what you tend to value, which I would say is more like reaching at being interesting as opposed to being right. Reaching. That being the key word. I just don't think you're going to love what I'm putting forth today, but I can only be myself. So did you just go down the top five players in the league and those are your top five teams? I mean, it's not a bad way to do it. I would disagree, but perhaps we should get into this.

Last time we did this, I think we cut out a lot of the clear teams because I think it was just such a clear cut exercise. I don't think we included the thunder, maybe not the spurs and maybe not even the rockets, just because I think those were the obvious top three. I didn't even have the rockets in this, so we can get to that. Same. Yeah. But where do we, let's start with number five. Let's go from bottom up because it's probably the more interesting side of things.

Wads, you want to go with your number five? So I had three teams actually fighting for this number five, which are the Knicks, the Pistons, and the Nuggets. And the reason why by the time I got to five, I started, I was like, man, in a previous, just last year the Nuggets would have been a shoeing for me, simply because Yokic is just such a freaking Iron Man, and it feels like his game isn't going to age.

However, this year, since he's come back from the injury, his first, like, real big injury and God knows how long. Like, I've noticed the slippage, especially on defense. They were just straight up way better on defense with him on the floor before he got hurt. And it's like, man, it's like, Yokic is actually going to feel injuries now. It might actually miss extended time going in a little. into, you know, the rest of his career when these Knicks... Or will these Knicks affect his play way more than they did in the past? And then you already have an injury guy like Murray.

You already have Gordon, who's missed way too much time this season. That's when I'm just like, damn, like, Denver kind of doesn't slot in for me here because of the age. And now we have to actually consider injury with Nicola. of Yokish. So they just made it off my cutting room floor. Not to say their situation is dire. No.

But I'm like, man, I kind of like the Knicks and their guys all being between 26 and 29, having played together, all of that continuity. I kind of like their future going forward, right? And also, they don't have the cheapest ownership in the history of life. You know? It's good point. Whereas you, like, literally it's become Feta Compli that my guy, Peyton Watson, this is last season because they don't want to pay him.

Like, what? This dude that y'all developed that y'all made into this beautiful player is just like, oh, no, my cost to, like, that's crazy to me. So you got to factor in ownership into the future rankings in their unwillingness to spend. And so, man, it's between New York and Detroit for me.

And maybe I'm being a New York homer, but I'm picking a Knicks. Wow. Okay. At number five over the Detroit Pistons. Because I think Detroit is a little overvalued right now. I kind of agree. I had them higher, but Rob, I'm curious what you think about Denver overall. Let's let's hit them first.

Like, do you have them on your list? I don't have them on my list. I think the certainty of how good they are right now, and I say relative certainty, because it's all still kind of theoretical, they've been so injured, that's a tough combination to parse. It's like this should be their time.

And really the best version of their window is going to be this year and next year, potentially the one after. And the fact that one of them is already kind of such a huge question mark is tough for me. If we're talking about the future projections of this team, like I have no idea how long Nicola Yokic wants to be a superstar in the NBA.

I have no idea how healthy, as was said, Jamal Murray and Aaron Gordon will continue to be. Peyton Watson has been awesome this season, but what happens if it is more of a flash in the pan? What if he's more of like a guy who's good as an X-Factor wildcard than he is as like a load-bearing pillar of your team? I just think there's a lot in the air with Denver in a way that makes their future, yeah, like I still would like their position relative to the vast majority of teams in the league. But if you're talking about the top fives, I still think there's just like a lot there to suss out that makes me a little bit nervous. Yeah, I mean, in addition to Watson, I think getting contributions from guys like Spencer Jones or the type of like things on the fringes they didn't have in years past when we were all kind of ringing our hands over what Calvin Booth was doing. And so for that reason, I'm a little bit more

bullish on them than I probably would be, but I think you guys are right. Like, they're going to end up right back in the situation this off season that they were in last off season. And we've talked at length about how bad of a trade it was to flip MPJ for a worst version in Cam Johnson just to open up contract on the back end. Like, now you're in the situation, like, if you want to pay Peyton Watson, you're probably getting rid of Johnson or perhaps Christian Brown, but also dealing with not having the available funds to even get a Jonas Valanchunist. And so I just don't know how this unpacks itself, even for next season,

let alone for two or three years down the road. And getting to Yokish, like, I always assumed he would age gracefully just because of the touch and feel he has. And I assume he will to a certain extent. But I think Waz is right. There is a real, like, fatalism kind of creeping in with Yokich, where it's just like, One, the history of centers in the NBA, just in totality, is pretty spotty once these injuries start, even just health concerns long term with guys of that size.

But his weight, if he's going to be out for a certain amount of the time, just putting more load and torque on the bottom half of his body, I do worry, like maybe he starts to all of a sudden just tilt the complete opposite direction. Like he has been a paragon of health, but now he just becomes the type of guy that you just, I don't know, maybe you just can't count on. It's a little like dire speak right now based on half of a season of work. But like, yeah, no, I don't think you can put them in the top five. And just to be sure to just break up a little bit of what feels like doom and gloom.

Yeah. In the best of times, Denver is not a high effort regular season team. They like kind of have always been like, yeah, we'll do it for 15 games stretching. And for 10 games, we're just going to fucking dick around. Right. And I think there's a certain level of that. happening right now with this team too. I don't think they're playing

like their season is on the line because it's kind of not, right? But at the same time, Yokic specifically was doing more in terms of second efforts and third efforts on defense this year. This season, he, like,

there's a clear line of demarcation. Pre-injury and post-injury. He's just not giving the effort on defense since he's come back from that injury. And so, you know, I still believe he can give way more in a seven-game series with two games in between, two days in between every single game. And they're going to be better for it. I still think Denver is going to be extremely hard to beat in the playoffs. But again,

over the course of a year, like, how much easier will it be for this guy to get over any injury when he is 30? It's like, you know, it's something to be concerned about. for the future. Sure. Yeah. And that's the whole, that's the whole exercise. You know, it's, we all respect the nuggets. We all think they're going to.

It hurt me. It hurt me to leave them off, though. I could tell. I could, I could really hear it in your voice. That's what I really was like, man, Justin really be putting these little, these little packets together, man. It's crazy.

Yeah, eight years later, Justin is usually right. It took long enough, but we got there. I would you mention also Jamal Murray best season of his career. And like, maybe he just plays this way in the regular season. season the entire time. So I would love it. Conorbalanced that. Let's get back to the Knicks, though.

I don't have them on my list. I'm curious, was what's leading kind of your bullishness? Because I look at it as kind of like a cat problem. Because he's the way to change up their team if they want to do anything. I mean, you could start to pull Bridges or OG. But I see it as like they don't have the resources and draft picks. And their team kind of is what it is young veterans. If they want to do anything different, for me, it's cat. And so I didn't really consider them at all. But see, to me, this version of the Knicks is a championship contender. Okay. Like, to me, this version of the Knicks that beat Boston quite soundly and was right there with Indiana, who was right there with OKC, is a championship contender.

And I think their guys are in that age where, like, you can expect them to be this good going forward. Like, I don't expect to see any noticeable drop off, excuse me, and any of these guys' play going forward. So to me, it's like they're going to be this good and probably better for even more of the experience that they're going to have together and their willingness to spend and, you know, their ability as a New York market to talk guys into taking more favorable deals, et cetera.

Like, I just view them favorably because of the so many prongs of this thing that I feel like it can stay consistent. And yes, they're not the favorite to win the Eastville. like, I don't think anybody in the East is way better than the Knicks. I just don't. I think they're right there with everybody.

Detroit presents a tough matchup, but I'm also not, I'm not Detroit guy. I'm happy that they're number one in the East. I think it's dope that they're killing. I'm not somebody who thinks this is some Eastern Conference juggernaut that they would wipe the floor with the Knicks in a playoff series. To me, I look at their regular series as much as I look at how New York plays. against Boston last year. They got their asses kicked all regular season long.

And then when the playoffs came, when they could dial into this matchup and their gods in them, like, even last night, I'm watching OG like stripping shade. Like, he's just taking the ball from him, blocking his shot. I'm like, bro, he don't do this every game.

You know, and they lost and like, whatever. People can say, oh, there's no such thing as a good loss. I thought that was a good loss. You know, Chad Holmgren is making every single jump shot that he's ever taken. Like that helped a lot But I think the Knicks, to me, people might say I'm the guy,

New York glasses, I think they're a contender to win the championship. And their guys are in a beautiful age range to keep that going. Yeah, they're definitely a contender. The question is, do they know that? And do they believe that?

Because every fifth game or so, it seems like maybe they don't. And I think what worries me about the Knicks, because you're right, was in terms of team construction, there's so much talent, there's so many reasons to like them, Brunson is obviously unbelievable.

In addition to like, OG is probably my favorite player to watch on their team for exactly that kind of performances you talked about with OKC. But they also feel like the kind of team that at any given point in time could kind of fall apart at the seams. And that worries me, right? It's like, I like the construction, but JV laid out their issues as far as like they don't have a lot of movable assets except for their most important players. And so any changes they want to make have to come from a dramatic reimagining of everything

they're doing. They can do that if they need to. They could explore those routes. In the meantime, they just feel like one of these teams that has everything that they that they need theoretically to get everywhere they need to go. And yet there's always something kind of holding them up. And they were kind of off my list for that reason, though obviously they're an honorable mention.

Yeah, I mean, we're not that far away from them having a players only meeting and also like a player's only on the bench meeting. That was just like a couple months ago. And I just don't know what it means for a team that like gets Jose Alvarado and all of a sudden he's just running around doing that stuff. And it's just like, oh, they're a different team now. I guess I have to think about them completely differently. So it's that whole thing where it's like, oh, maybe they're irrevocably just kind of broken as a chemistry experiment. But on the other hand, if you just have like the guys on the fringes all of a sudden, it works. And for that reason,

I guess they have to be in the mix for this situation. I don't have them on my list, but I can see the case for sure. So if you're watching the OKC game last night, right, and they get down by 15 or whatever it was. And then they just come back. And we've watched them do this a million times. To me, that's not like, I don't think that's some fluke of a thing that. I think there's something about this group of players that they have that ability to do that.

And again, in a game where Brunson is in his best and Mitch doesn't even play and just watching Towns be like competent. Again, he wasn't good, but he was competent on defense. and he was grabbing every single rebound. I'm like, yo, they have the bones of a team that gets into a series with anybody and they could knock them out, right? And so, yeah, that's maybe I'm a little bit too bullish on the next and I could see why people would disagree with me.

I just still think there's something there. Yeah, I think a defensive turnaround over the past, what, 10 or so games has definitely led to me thinking about them a little differently in this race in the East. I'm going to do mine number five, if you don't mind, Rob, just jumping ahead here. because I have another East team. I have the Boston Celtics. I actually do too. Number five.

Yeah, let's double dip on this thing, J.B. Well, this is good timing because as we're recording this podcast, news just broke that won Jason Tatum coming back on Friday. Why don't we hit that first just in terms of the immediate sort of implications? Was, where are you on the Celtics just overall this season? Like, do you think with Tatum, him working his way back into this thing on the fly,

they could win the East? I don't. I'm not actually persuaded by this Celtics East winning narrative that's building despite the record, despite the success. That being, just this year specifically, that being said, I have them at number three. Okay.

And it's because of what they've achieved this year without Tatum. To me, it's like Joe Maz is kind of like proven that he's a one-of-one, that he is at the top tier of NBA coaching, and you could put him with literally, anybody. And Boston has shown that, like, they're kind of a Spurs Popovich kind of thing in terms that they have a program. They have a culture. They have stability in Brad and Joe Missoula.

And then they have two superstars, two MVP candidate-level kind of players. And so to me, like, that's inarguable when it comes to that. And then, And it's like with Brad, I, like, these scrap heap dudes, and because Paul talks about it on the show all the time, because he's been on this Jalen Brown is the real MVP kick for like a week and a half now. He would. Yes, he would, obviously. But he's just like, hold on, they lost Tatum.

They lost Porzengis, Drew Holiday, Al Horford, Cornett. Yeah, Corny. For those reasons, I was like, damn, like Boston's going to stink this year. But they're just grabbing dudes nobody's ever heard of. And these guys are just magically transforming into rotational NBA players. This is nuts. The Jordan Wall, Charlieville and the Waver kid. Why is he killing this year?

You know what I mean? Like when I just look at every single prong, the management, the coach, the superstars that are entrenched, the ability to replenish the role players around it. To me, this is, you can't argue with the future of what Boston has. I think you laid out a very logical case for why the Celtics should be on this list and featured quite highly on this list. I almost put them on for the complete opposite reason, which is what all that structure does is lead them to defy expectations in ways that I still cannot fully grasp. Like I can't, I can't really tell you why the Celtics are able to do this on both sides of the ball this season. If you told me maybe they would scrap it together and have the personnel to be like a borderline top 10 defense and have like a successful season off that, sure.

One of the best offenses in the league off of the back of Jalen Brown and a fuck ton of threes and offensive rebounding. Basically alone is just a wild, I mean, maybe unprecedented result in terms of a team doing it with this kind of shoestring roster, which leads me to believe this is not a shoestring roster, that there are a lot of guys here you have to take seriously, that they're not just names that nobody has heard of. like, Namesh, Kada is just a real deal NBA center, right? Like, he just established himself as a starter-level player where even the Celtics might not have been fully anticipating that. And so there have been so many jumps from not just Jalen Brown, but all the way down the roster. Now you're reincorporating Jason Tatum.

Yes, you have all of this, like, mythology around the franchise that clearly does something in terms of lifting expectations and setting a standard. I think they just have to be here. It's crazy to say, given some of the, the talent that we're going to leave off of this list. But I think the Celtics have more than earned it with the way they've played this year. By the way, Brad, 10 times the GM that Danny Ains ever was.

I'll say that too. And he's not always playing games in the press, getting people to call him a genius and all of this dumb shit, seeding the media with all of his propaganda. Brad just goes out, does the work and look at the goddamn results. Championships, beating expectations, just empowering coaches like Missoula. like, this guy is it. But how many people has he almost traded for?

Who's to say? We can't really judge his record of almost trades. And that's why I think Danny Ains is just the goat, you know? How can you compete with that? Well, I'm glad you guys are bringing this up because the Stevens model

is the complete opposite of what Aang did. Now, we should give Aang some credit because he built the asses war chat in order to go out and get Drew Holiday and then Porzengis. But his whole plan, Stevens, was to turn. turn those assets into actual real deal veterans that ended up kind of spurring them

toward the title. He went out and got as well. Yep. Right. But then on the back end of that, the guts of the rotation at this point, as you guys are kind of alluding to, are just like things that they've picked up along the way on the fringes. This team hasn't had a first round pick above 28th since 2020.

And so the rotation is mostly undrafted in terms of Kadenhauser. It's low first in terms of Pritchard, Hugo, and then now Baylor Shireman, who's starting for this team. Walsh is a second. And then they get their free agency and trades are actually guys that they don't even really need. It's like Garza, who was a flyer and Vouch was, which was mostly a money trade, and he's playing off the bench here. And so what they've built is really kind of remarkable for any team, let alone a team that needs to get these sorts of things right. Because as you guys mentioned, like having the two superstars plus Derek White is the type of money. constraint that is going to be an impossible task for any franchise, to be able to work it out

on the fly without Tatum while still winning is one of the more impressive GM in jobs I've seen in a very long time. Especially when all that stuff transposes so easily. Right. Like what makes Hugo Gonzalez successful is going to be just as successful for the Jason Tatum version of this team too. There hasn't been like any breakouts that feel like, oh, Cam Thomas is just getting up a bunch of shots.

And then when we have to be a real team again, we're going to have to put it back in the box. All of this is who the Celtics can continue to be. And that's including the decision making that put those players on the roster in the first place. They will have this season. Let's say they stay at where they are right now. Tatum doesn't like bolster the regular season case. They will have a higher draft pick this season than they would have had since 2020. Because they're currently 27th.

They've been drafted in 28th or Laura Blah. We should mention that they owe 29 and 31 firsts via some trades. There's like some slight downside there. But in terms of like runway, like I think they've got. Got it. We should hit Tatum just quickly before we go, because Rob, did you have anything you want to say on Tatum's return? Like, I guess what's first and foremost are you looking for? Are you trying to see, like, how they pace him back? Are you trying to see how he plays on defense, like, works off of Brown? What is it? I think it's just like how much is asked of him and how much can you reasonably ask a player in this position, right?

It's, I think, I think defense is a great place to look because in terms of what you want to put on a guy coming off of ruptured Achilles, I don't think you want to ask Jason Tatum to be. the fully versatile version of himself where he's guarding bigs where he's switching onto guards. Let him play a restrained role and succeed in that first. Let him get his feet

literally under him before you start doing anything dramatic and expecting him to be a star in any sense. And I think the good news about that is we can trust the Celtics to be that kind of team, even though Joe Maz is a little bit

of a psycho. Like there is enough of a bigger picture vision that can counterbalance the obsessive need to win today. And hopefully that goes well for everybody involved. Any Achilles stuff freaks me out.

Anytime a guy is inching back any earlier than was originally suggested, scares me a little bit. But I think there's enough going on in Boston where he doesn't have to just take the mantle of who he used to be so quickly and can be a version of Jason Tatum that's helpful and useful this season, but not putting so much strain on his body in the process. Yeah, you wonder what his quote-unquote role is going to be. I know there's been a lot of stuff in the press about, oh, I'm not coming back to be a role player and oh.

But he's also in the same breath as like, I'm not going to come in and just like take 30 shots a game either. You know, and again, Tatum's always had when he wasn't doing his stupid Kobe stepbacks, like every other part of his game was like very team focused and oriented, like how he ran the floor. Like he always set good screens. He always, you know, was a good cutter.

He's always been willing to sacrifice himself on defense by guarding up or guarding down. Like, he's always been the consummate team sort of, you know, skeleton key kind of guy that I don't know why he would be anything else. You know, like, again, if he came back and just started ISO, dribble, dribble, triple, long two fadeaways, like 12 a game, I would be shocked. if he watched this team for 60 games and said, here's how I'm going to try to help this team by doing something stupid. I give him way too much credit as a freaking hoop head. Like, this guy's a smart player. I think he's going to figure out how to help his team win.

Yeah, just imagining him on the bench on all these road trips and what he's been thinking about is just like how he's going to disrupt this awesome thing that he's been watching for four to five months at this point. It doesn't make any sense. All right, number fours. Wise, you want to go with yours? My number four, and people might, they might disagree and find it surprised that I'm Minnesota Timberwolves. Okay.

Honestly. And it's just, again, the consistency that these guys bring, while us not, like, we're not completely sold on anything on this team that isn't Aunt Edwards. You know what I mean? We like Rudy. We're like, we're dorky enough to appreciate what Rudy Gober actually does well and how he actually helps his team.

But none of us is just like, yeah, absolutely has to close the biggest games in the playoffs for the wolves. Yeah. Not even wrong. Rob, you don't think that?

I thought that was a very generous we on the dorkiness there was. Thank you so much. They ain't going. We appreciate, but we're not sold on him. Like, Randall, fan of Julius Randall,

like, Do I think he's going to be amazing in the playoffs this year? I hope so. I hope he plays closer to what he did last year than what he had done previous years with the Knicks. Right? And on and on it goes. Even Nas Reid, like, he's been a pretty inconsistent guy

in terms of the highs and the lows with him. You know, Jada McDowell... Like, we're just sold on Aunt Edwards. Like, that's what I believe in. That's my North Star. To me, that's the guy that, like, can, detonate any matchup, no matter who it is. There are no answers for this kid.

And having that on your team, and he's a guy who's tasted winning, you know, has been in big spots, has made big shots, has suffered heartbreak, has had embarrassing defeats at the hands of teams like OKC with that wealth of experience. So, like, to me, it's like Minnesota has Aunt Edwards. And not only just that, it's like a guy who understands what winning is and what it takes. So that's why to meet in the number four team for the future power rankings. I feel like Waz was describing my dating life there, just like. Which part?

Made some mistakes. He's willing to take some big shots. I mean, you take the swings. There's really no doubt. Yes, you have been through a lot, just in the dating scene. Yeah, we're just waiting for that ring. That's right. We're all just waiting.

Rob, we're all just waiting for that ring. It's been a long wait. but it's going to make it that much sweeter, you know? That's right. It's a long runway. Rob, do you have them on your list? So I don't. I would say there's like three teams here that I really thought about based on almost like Star Power alone and immediate success alone.

And we are talked about the nuggets. I would say they're one of them. The wolves are one of them. I even gave serious consideration to the Lakers just because they've already done the single hardest thing, which is get the guy who can carry you through the regular season and get you to the finals. I couldn't quite get there. They haven't done the easiest thing, Rob,

which is fire Rob, what's his name, Rob Lowe. We're not trying to fire Rob Lowe on this or any podcast. But ultimately the wolves feel like the bridge of those two arguments, right? If the Lakers are the purely Luca-driven, we have our future superstar, but nothing else. With all due respect to Austin Reeves, I guess they also have Austin Reeves. And the Nuggets are the like, we are contenders right now, but maybe a little older, maybe you can't quite rely on the entire team to hang together just so in the long term. The wolves have Anthony Edwards.

They have a team that's really good right now, if also with all of the kind of variables you described was. They're also really expensive. And that also gives me a little bit of pause. It's like they're kind of bumping up on the edges of what this version of the team can be. And we've seen them, you know, bring back Mike Conley, bring back Kyle Anderson, obviously at Iodosum. Like, they're a really good contender in the West. I just wonder as we age into the next part of Anthony Edwards' career what that version of The Wolves is going to look like

because it's probably not going to have Rudy Gobert on it. It probably isn't going to have Julius Randall on it. And that part of uncertainty, I think, edge them just out of the top five for me. But who's going to feel bad about betting on Ant at this point? Like, he's such a transcendent talent and increasingly says and does all of the right things in terms of his approach to the game. I would feel great if that were the future of my franchise, no matter what. I just think that some other teams have a compelling argument.

Yeah, I guess the flip side of that is, if we're talking about ownership being the main factor in how some of these organizations have five to 10 year runways, the fact that they're willing to keep spending, like, they were in a ditch and they somehow dug out Isai O'Dosumu at the deadline, and they're going to have to pay him this off season. I don't know how they're going to stack all these contracts together, but like, This team was already expensive. It's going to continue to get more expensive. They did the Rob Dillingham trade where they probably shouldn't,

but they went out and paid the price in order to get a guy they thought was going to fill that role. And so I do like the fact that they're willing to take advantage of the window. Having said that on the back end, the bill is going to come due at some point. And so you hope that there's going to be something when Ant hits his like third contract for him to be playing with. But for now, I get it. For the next like five years, they're going to be a classic fuck around and make the finals team.

I don't think they're ever going to have the like thunder-esque, well, we just blazed through the regular season. We won 70 games and now we're going to get the title that was destined. They're going to just like win the right series and all of a sudden they're going to have a title and be like, oh, okay, I guess this is how it is. Yeah, and another thing that that factored into my consideration was the trade buzz around Janus to Minnesota, even if it might have been partly Kalshi driven, right? We don't know. But I like the idea that they're in that conversation at all, which is just something you just would have never expected from Minnesota in the past. So you just wonder if the right circumstance presents itself where somebody can actually force themselves.

Shit, maybe even this summer could actually force themselves to Minnesota. Them being a candidate for that because of Aunt Edwards, you know, also factored into my. decision to pick them. It's a great case. Yeah. That's a great point because we talk about like market muscle in L.A. and New York drawing people like if an aunt is able to draw a superstar, that's the type of advantage most franchises don't have. It's one thing to have a superstar, but to get a guy who will draw other superstars to come play with you as a completely separate situation.

All right. Number four, Rob, do you want to do yours? Yeah, I had the Detroit Pistons here. Okay. I had them at three. I mean, I think was they got to be on the list. I'm not, look, guys, I love Cade. They got Cade. They got a lot. It's not just Cade.

They got Cade. They have Cade, okay? Like, is Jalen Duren obviously better than Julius Randall? He's not. Not to me, he's not. I think the next five years. Yeah, the next five years of Jalen Duren are going to be better than the next five years of Kat. Like, I don't think that's really an argument.

Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe, maybe. Maybe. I'd like to see it in the playoffs, for sure. You know what I mean? And again, I get the age factor. I just, I'm just like, yo, Detroit still got a lot to do in terms of making this roster more well-balanced. The only thing I will say, my only regret about Detroit and leaving them off is that I know they have the capacity to do something dramatic if it calls for it.

Sure. So that's the only thing to me. Like, if they do some dramatic. that obviously upgrades the roster than they're in there, but to me, they're not, they're not there yet to me. And I don't think Kate is as good as Ann.

I don't think so either. Yeah, I think he's a slight step below. But again, around him, you know, similar to Minnesota, I think there's a great mix of guys who just make natural sense with Kate, Duran, Isaiah Stewart, like, they just work with Cade. And then there's also, like, the mystery box elements that kind of work with Cade

and maybe we'll unlock into something even more profound later, like Asar Thompson and Ron Holland and those guys. Like that combination is really enticing to me. Those guys still got to show me a lot more, bro. In terms of becoming rock solid 28-minute game playoff guys. They're not that. Like Assar Thompson, man, I'm sorry, dude. He's going to be a problem for them on offense in the playoffs.

Like a major problem. I don't know that he's going to be a major problem. I feel better about Asar stretching to 28, 30 minutes. I say stretching just because of like the playoffs and what you're asking of him. I think he can do it. I think he's ready for that part of it. It won't come without its issues.

Toby Harris in the playoffs, bro. I mean, we are. And that's its own issue where Tobias Harris is expiring this summer. And they're either going to need to replace him or they're going to need to pay him to be continued, to continue to be a part of the team. They got to figure all that out. But I love what Asar brings to the team.

And this is kind of the year where I have, gotten over some of my own worries with Ron Holland, even as he has had, like, not his best season. I think he's just had enough moments where he will have five minutes where he turns a game upside down with, like, pure effort and energy, and he'll force a bunch of turnovers, and he'll make just enough shots or at least get out in transition to hit enough layups, where I can feel his energy having, like, a tangible effect. And that's just, like, the case up and down the Pistons roster, where this is a group that is not just a collection of players on a cap sheet or like highly touted prospects for our young core rankings,

there are a group of players that make sense enough now to be a dominant regular season team. And I think to answer some playoff questions, even though I don't have they're ready to answer every playoff question. I think if I'll be happy to eat shit if these guys make the conference finals or the finals this year, I just think they're going to get picked off. I do. They could have. I think they're a second round upset exit candidate for me.

And that's why they're number six on my list, because I just think the team is still not there. Whereas, like, again, Minnesota, I would pick them in a playoff series against the Detroit. I just think they're just more well-rounded, and I think it's just better than Kate Cunningham, straight up. I just think they're more well-balanced in terms of up and down their roster. All the teams that I put ahead of them, I think, are better than them right now. And I think Detroit's going to have to address their weaknesses somehow. The issue with that is like the Pistons will never have to worry about whether you would pick them in a series against the wolves unless they make the finals. And that's like honestly part of it too, which is.

Got you. It's the Eastern Conference part of it. Right. Like, I mean, we're going to get it in terms of who's at the top of this list. But there are some real powerhouses in the West that I think a team like the wolves have to overcome. And the Pistons simply don't unless they really get everywhere they need to go. I feel like I'm persuaded by that argument, actually. This season though, but if we're looking about this like into the future, I think three of the teams on my list are in the East.

We talked about the Knicks, which aren't on my list. The Cavs, I assume not on anybody's list, but they're going to be a factor. I assume for the next two or so years as long as Mitchell is going to be there. So I don't know. These things could flip at the very least in terms of like the top tier teams and like the road to the finals. But to me, Detroit, they don't. Like the West is a better conference for like 30 consecutive years. So, you know, it's just kind of what it is.

To me, Detroit is they could get picked off by Cleveland easily. I can easily see it, not that Cleveland would beat them in five games. I can easily see it. The Knicks, I could see it easily. Even Boston, with their little veteran know-how, and the fact that they're going to bomb 67-3s and Detroit's going to take, like, 14 is like, like, I can see these things happening. I'm, again, I'm not saying this.

I'm like paper tiger. I love Detroit. I love the team. I just think the shooting, the lack of anybody who could dribble the freaking ball outside of Cade. It's like, man, when Cade sits and they're trying to generate offense, I'm like, holy moly, this is tough. They have a consolidation trade just kind of waiting for them.

That's what I'm saying. But the clock is really ticking because the extensions for all these young guys are going to come up sooner than you think. Duran has one this offseason. and then it's a SAR and then it's Holland. I agree with Waz just overall, though. Sometimes, like, the assets they have in the back there, all these young guys that they're hoping to be something else,

feels a little bit like a Costco bulk pack where it's like, oh, just I'm going to eat another, like, athlete wing who can't shoot, just another one. Hell yeah, you are. We're 10 into this at this point, but I assume that they'll find a way to turn one of those guys into something else. And they have Toby's contract if they want to do something this offseason in order to do with it.

But you're right, there's something missing. And to be clear, I'm not making Asar and Ron Holland into like Anthony Robeson and Tabo Cephalocia, right? Like, they're better than that, right? Like, I think they do more than that. But, like, these guys limit what you can do in a playoff setting. They straight up do right now. And that's all I'm saying about Detroit.

But they do right now. Will they always? And I think, I think a SAR has enough. off ball, connective passing, like other ways to contribute offensively to make me think, I don't believe this is always going to be in space. See, but that's the thing, no, Rob.

Like, the way it's trending with Cade is like he's always got the ball. So, like, that limits what a sarr can give you. You know what I mean? Like, making your offense tick, and maybe Cade will develop into somebody who just trust these guys to do more. And now that he's perfected on ball,

pick and roll and breaking people down. He's like, all right, I'm going to perfect helping these guys out off the ball. Maybe that would be something they could do. And again, I don't think these, I think these things that these margins are not like huge. Yeah. You know, in terms of how I see it.

Like, that's why they were literally on my fringe. To me, there's like the top. And then everybody else in terms of their future is right kind of there. Well, they, I had a tough time debating them between three and four because the team that, I really wanted to put four is probably a stark contrast

to everything we're saying about Detroit. And that's the Charlotte Hornets. Another team who could be blocking their path in the East, probably as soon as the playoffs. Because right now they are on the kind of fucking heater that's like, is the new warriors? Like you're having those sorts of thoughts. They're not real, but you do entertain them

as you're watching them just absolutely blitz good teams. And we should mention last night before Tatum arrives, still, they completely wiped the floor with the Celtics. So not only is this team set up for down the road, but right now, they have lost three games since January 22nd. They have only lost back-to-backs twice since the start of the new year. And so I'm like, they got to be on the list for me.

I fucking love the Hornets. Me too. Love watching them. They're clearly quite good in this iteration. The core of the team, I completely believe in. They're also like, like, I mean, They have a long way to go. Let's just be honest amount.

They're still figuring a lot out. And even this much Ballyhoo, six-game win streak they're on where they're blowing all these teams out, the Celtics win, incredible. All the other wins, a lot of tanking teams in there. They're not exactly trying super hard. You could think Adam Silver's NBA for the rest of those wins. Even I could not get here. I would say the foremost lamella ball defender, a concanipal believer, a Brandon Miller

advocate, a Musa Diabate, I don't know, stumber. but I couldn't get them on my top five. I couldn't bring myself to do it. Wow. Nobody has them. I think this is your island. I think greener pastures just right ahead. I mean,

obviously the Lamello question is a big one because like probably two months ago, we were ready to trade him to Sacramento and like just like play for the flight, flight tickets in order to get there. But like in addition to that, they have just a clear runway in terms of cap and assets and everything. And so like they have, they have a Dallas course coming in 2020. Oh, he's been awesome for them.

Yeah. It just makes a lot of sense. And the fact that they're getting the rotation guys right, like Diabate is a guy that like the clippers just kind of cast aside. All of a sudden, he looks like an impact top 100 sort of player. Yeah. Tees for the future top 100. Listen, Justin.

He's got people doing the moose. I'm not going to get me to talk bad about the Hornets this season. Like, they have completely rescued the 4 p.m. slate of League Paz games with single-handedly. they've rescued it with Indiana being garbage this year and stuff like that but yeah I just think you know

in terms of the teams that I have it's like clear how you could see them competing and winning championships within the next two, three this year you know what I mean so that's all

I think if we have this conversation in a couple months I might be ready right if they hold this through the rest of the season not this toward pace but like some version of it they're headed towards a six seat this is crazy

and a nice playoff showing they don't even have to win, but just like looking and feeling competitive, then I'm maybe right there with you, at least in terms of getting them into the five. I just want like a little bit more in terms of that burden of proof, especially just because the first part of the season,

while dealing with injuries, admittedly, was just like quite bad. And I'm not just like pretending it didn't exist. I just had the vision, you know? You do. The stocks before they really pop on the trade market. Sure. So did you guys do your number three's yet?

I have not. Waz of you? My three is Boston. Boston is my three. Rob, do you have yours? My three is the Indiana Pacers. Are we just going to pretend that they don't exist? Yeah.

What do you mean? Yeah, they went to the NBA finals and then they improved their roster this year. Improved their roster, how? The Zubodge thing? Yeah. Like, Zoo is not only a better defender than Miles Turner positionally, but is going to give them like the whole. hulking screener, the post-up thread.

But doesn't he change how they play, though, in terms of the pace and the running and they get a shot up with just six seconds into the shot clock? I mean, they just got to the NBA finals with Miles like trailing behind those bricks. You know, like the trail big is not the guy I'm worried about in that equation. And he was useful and contributed. But I just think, like, whatever these other rising teams might have and might be able to prove, the pacer's have already proven it. and they have a roster that we know makes sense.

Yes, the Halliburton Achilles stuff will have to work itself out. We'll have to see what shape he's in, all of that. But I just feel super comfortable betting on the future of a team that I know works. And basically everybody, but Pascal still has their best basketball ahead of them. And frankly, even Pascal might. I'm not ruling anything out for that guy. I worry about a team that is built so much on pace and depth

because I think they hit the sweet spot last season where everybody was on a cost-controlled deal. And you didn't really have to get over your skis in order to, to bring a lot of those guys back. I think Zubach helps that. If they get the pick in addition to Zubach, I think that would go a long way. Maybe that would spring a dynasty even.

But I do think if you're going to play this sort of specific style, you do need bodies. And we've seen across the league that's tough to do just in general, let alone the amount of torque and just like what it takes on the human body in order to get that. And so I don't know if they're built for the long haul. Clearly next season, I think they have a window. Sure. But in terms of future, that's where I give a little bit of them.

So part of me to. feels like and it's a different comparison because of the age to the collective ages of these teams but like part of

watching indie last year for like 2014 Spurs where it's like this one year where they're just unstoppable this style that nobody can figure out

that's completely unique to just them and nobody's doing it and therefore nobody knows how to deal with it I don't know that that excellence just completely carries over two years later. You know what I mean?

Like it's not even like the next year. Because, you know, we saw the Spurs were really good in 15, ended up losing in the first round to the Clippers and all of that stuff and a hard fought seven game series to a really good Clippers team. But like, it just wasn't the same exact thing. Not that it wasn't great or wasn't really good or effective. It just wasn't as elite as it was. And that's what I worry about with the Paces.

Like, man, are they going to be able to get to that level of, bro, like, that was one of the most enjoyable basketball experiences of my life watching the Paces last year? You know, just the joy and the spontaneity and just like, how is this happening and trying to figure it out? Yeah. You know, you wonder if they could replicate that. And it's cliche, but it did feel like lightning in a bottle. It was lightning in a bottle. I think part of the reason they were able to catch that lightning, though, is it wasn't just like they only had the one move.

It wasn't just they played the style and no one could counter it and they worked their way through. They had answers for everything. They had counters for everything. They have so many decision makers who are good handling the ball and make responsible adult decisions in tough situations that just like you trust when the ball swings to Aaron Eastman that he's going to do something with it that helps your team.

And the same of Andrew Demp. And the same with Obie, how old. And the same with Obie Topin when he comes back from injury. And the part of this, I think we have to incorporate, is not just that they just traded for a Vizzoobots. Like, they are very close to getting both a Vizzoobots and a top four pick in this draft. Sure.

And in particular, if they continue to have one of the three worst records, that is better than a coin flip proposition for them, that they will end up with the top four pick. That's a real thing. And whether they want to keep that player, whoever it is, a highly-touted prospect, or flip that into someone who can make their immediate prospects even better. Oh, God.

Not the dreaded two. Two timeline. I mean, the thing is, I don't even know that they're on two timelines so much as just they're on one very, very long runway. And that's why they're a team of the future to me, even though they're one that just went to the NBA finals. I do look at the zoo trade, though, in a certain light as, like, perhaps that was the clear admittance that we have a window of two years in order to get this done.

I think Pascal's contract and his age kind of feeds into that because he only has two more years at Max Money. And so he's 31 has a lot of miles on and played, like, leading. minutes for the Raptors under Nick Nour's, who was completely ruined careers in the past. But then Zhu is also on a two-year deal. And part of his advantage, part of his appeal to so many suitors was he was on a bargain contract. If you're paying him market rate two years from now, what is he going to be another big guy? Let's see how he ages. And so I agree. If you want to like prioritize the here and now, the next two years could be pretty good. They could win a title.

They could win two. But after that, I'm a little not a soul. A starting defensive unit of Zhu, Zoo, Pascal, Nemhart, and Neeson, Smith is crazy. Pretty unbelievable. That's a crazy defense to throw at people for sure. You know, again, for me,

it's just a matter of, it's not, like, they're going to be good. Yeah. Like, there's, like, that, I don't, Carlisle, Hallibur, and all of these, these guys are winners.

Yep. I don't doubt that. It's just, man, the heights that they got to, maybe I shouldn't be comparing it to the heights. It's like, maybe hovering around that area for the next two, three years is good enough.

That'd be great. It's probably right. Yeah. Yeah. I just think they do enough in terms of player decision making, coach decision making, front office decision making. I just trust them to continue to be good. And we know that like motivation-wise,

the Pacers always kind of at least fight towards the middle, but they've shown what they can do using that as a launch pad. Also, Jaris Walker, 16, 8, and 4 over the last 10 games. Just going to throw that in. Don't even worry about it. Here we go. Just saying it before that. No comment.

All right, why don't we take one more break and when we come back? We'll do our top twos. All right. I imagine we have the same teams in the top two, just perhaps in different order. So you have the Blazers number one. Grizzlies number two. You joke, but that is still a swear jar. You still need to pay in the pipe for that one.

The Scoot days, huh? Yeah, I'm definitely feeling a little bit more queasy about the scoot optimism. But we don't have to talk about that now because they're not actually on my list. I have the spurs at one, the Thunder at two. I do too. I'm Thunder won Spurs too. Yeah. I like it.

Why'd you make the decision? To me, it's because their superstar is more fully realized. Also, he doesn't come with the baggage of the health stuff that Biggs and guys that size come with. And I just think everything is more fully realized. Like, their whole roster is just like adult. It's just straight up. These guys are bona fide, high-level rotation players, if not three NBA all-stars. I just think that they're all young.

To me, there's just more facts here rather than theory with the spurs. Not to say, like, yo, man, I love Vassell, Champany. I've become a castle like, damn, like Danny Green was like the first, like, for the season. He's like, he's a max player. I'm telling him he going to get the max. Blah, blah, blah. Watch when his extensions up.

He's a man. I'm like, bro, relax, bro. He had a nice rookie season, whatever. I'm now like, damn, this guy is like, he's there in terms of the impact he can have on both ends. I just think, for me, I just love the shit that's just proven. Like, OKC in there. Like, when Shay and all of them was out, and that game against Cleveland just pissed me off because Cleveland was, like, playing zone defense.

against Kaysen Wallace. I'm like, bro, Casey and Wallace running offense, you don't need to zone that up, bro. It was just making me sick, but it just shows you, like, the level of talent of the guys that have accepted,

you know, these strict roles for themselves. And so that's why, and then, of course, there's all the stuff that are, you know, our brethren in the freaking media get excited about their draft picks and all that of this stuff.

Like, to me, they're still number one. Can I get excited about the draft picks, real quick? talking about that. So, yeah, I took the, I took the same kind of approach, but I thought about it in the opposite way, where I see them as a fully formed team that's now, like, reaching the pain points that are probably going to dictate the next, like, era of this team because the three guys are on a max, around $124 million next season. But then after that, once Shay's extension kicks in, that at 151 in the 2027, 28 season. So this is going to get pretty difficult pretty quickly because the new CBA is built specifically to attack big three teams.

they are primed probably better than any franchise, probably in history in order to combat it because they're plus seven in first and swaps. Two of them are the Clippers, the rights to the Clippers next two picks, so this year and next year, which is crazy. And then they have a 28 swap with Dallas, which I believe was like a weird thing where they, like, did a trade after the fact in order to free up a pick so Dallas can go get, I want to say, PJ Washington, which is looking pretty fucking good for the Thunder right now. But for instance, Dort, Hartenstein, on team options, next.

season or they're on expiring so you have maybe one year like how do they deal with this like are they going to bring these guys back at different sort of money values or are they just going to move on and then it opens the door of like well case and wallace has looked good all of a sudden just like dropping 20 out of nowhere when they didn't have a lot of guys out there but then on the flip side of that it's just like how do you place a heartenstein it's just there's a little unknown there and those things i think are going to matter more whereas i think the spurs just have a complete like just clear space in front of them it's just like the big wide view it's the iMacs theater i'm just like oh i'm just this could be anything i'm just waiting to

just be completely overwhelmed because i don't know what's going to happen and i think that optionality i think made me lean toward the spurs over the thunder it's an impossible choice like the thunder roster is obscene and yeah it creates all those problems because the players are too good and you have too many of them like i was i was conceptualizing the thunder like you know those t-shirt designs with like the ampersand like you know shea and chet and j dub and kays and kison Wallace and it's like the Thunder version of that is a fucking jumpsuit. Like the name just keep going, A.J. Mitchell

and Lou Dort and Jared McCann. I mean, I think we should be making some merch out here for sure. The McCain part of it I think is a kind of interesting totem of who the Thunder are. Because you're right, J.B. They're going to have to find ways to replace Isaiah Hartenstein over time or resign him to

like way below market value I would think to retain him. But they also have such an eye for talent and for opportunity. and they just are turning up Isaiah Joe's and Jared McCain's at a rate that not a lot of teams do. And so plugging the back end of the rotation, I'm not so worried about. It's a question of like, you know,

is Chet ready to be a full-time five if Isaiah Hartstein leaves in a couple years? I think he probably will be. I don't really have a lot of questions about the core of the team. And frankly, as far as young cores go, I'm less concerned about between, you know, Shea and Chet and J-dub, there being like a fight for power

or some kind of mutiny or one of those guys asking out. They all seem so well adjusted and so well balanced in terms of how they think about the game in their careers. I just believe that that's going to be the future of the thunder almost indefinitely. That's really hard to pick against. I think the only way you can do it and that I

ended up talking myself into with the Spurs is Wembe is so unique and so uniquely dominant to prospect. And then the other part is that San Antonio is so far ahead of schedule that their future is already here. And if they weren't already in a position to contend, if there wasn't a thought in my mind

that if these teams met in a playoff series, it is even possible that the Spurs could win, and I think it is possible the Spurs could win, even though I wouldn't predict it. That to me is compelling. It's like, Waz, you write about the facts, but it's like the unknowns with the Spurs in addition to kind of what they've already proven,

I find to be like a pretty good argument for putting them number one here. Yeah, another thing that, you know, they're going to have to resolve the guard thing at some point. Yep. In the not that distant future, because extensions and stuff is going to be coming up where it's like, hold up, man.

Like, I get it, but I need to be paid. You know what I mean? Like, I get the Wembe thing and the winning thing is great, but, like, I want to get paid. I was a, you know, a number, a top five pick. I want to get paid like one on my extension. And so I think that stuff is, going to definitely need to resolve itself.

For right now, I think it is a luxury for your third ball handler to be a guy like Dylan Harper, who's only a rookie, but like straight up, a scrambling defense. Him attacking that, he's overqualified to do. He's just incredible. And the jump is not even falling yet, right? And so, yeah, to me, the roster is incredible. I just think there's a lot of stuff still to be determined, you know. Whereas like, there's nothing to determine all.

Like, the fact of their dominance is what fucking J-dub hasn't played, man. Like, he hasn't helped this year. He has not helped them. It hasn't mattered. They've been killing people anyway. It's crazy. Yeah, that factor didn't for me, too. Also, like, the injury concerns with J-Dub.

Like, who knows? It doesn't seem like the type of thing that will last be on the season. I don't think the hand is going to heal this year. Yeah. It's just has lingered over the season in a way that I wasn't expecting. We should mention the Spurs also plus five and first and swaps, including Atlanta's next two, which next year, Atlanta, if they are going the route of like trying to get this draft pick and build from the ground up again, I think could be pretty good.

Ultimately, I think it is a Wembe thing, where it's like Shea is incredible historic player, but like Wembe just might be a one of one. He doesn't get the extension. He'll probably sign it this off season and then it kicks in the year after. But like he's already on our top 100, for instance, the third best player in the league right now. I get the health concerns overall, but he just might be the type of eraser that just like, it doesn't matter if you're a great player.

You have to be this like just completely one of one historic freak. I don't want to gloss over the part that was raised, though, about Shay's health in particular, where over the last three years, like he's been as available as basically any other star out there. He missed these like nine games with this abdominal injury. And it was like, oh my God. I'm just like not even used to not seeing him out there.

He probably didn't need to miss nine games. Maybe not. Like when you're on pace for 70 wins, it's like, okay, whatever. Completely. And so you just expect he's going to show up and he's going to give you 30 a night.

That's a really powerful thing. I think with Wimby, again, it's like that I don't fully know what he's capable of. And I would say there's kind of two things that have really reassured me this season. One of them is everything going on with his shot selection,

where if he was still shooting threes at the volume he was last year, I'd be like, that's a player that in a matchup, you can flatten out and simplify and take away a lot of what he does best. He's completely changed the way he thinks about the game and attacks the game. And this came up the other night when they blew out the Sixers and Wemby took five shots and he was being asked after the game about it.

And he was like, my job is to keep doing the same thing. And if the defense doesn't adjust, then we just like feast off of the advantages that we're creating for other players. And the fact that it didn't seem to cross his mind that like five shots would be a bad thing if it means wide open shots for everyone else. like that's a guy I want as the anchor of my team. If he's also the best defensive player in the world, if he's also kind of an unstoppable force

if you try to guard him one on one. Like there's just so much happening with Wembe that feels like this is, this is the guy you want to bet on. This is the star you want to stake the future of your franchise around. And I realize I'm saying that opposite, the reigning MVP and one of the greatest individual scores

of all time in Shay. It's stupid as it's coming out of my mouth. And yet Wemby makes you say, stupid things. And, you know, and another thing is, like, the specific Spurs matchup,

like, they clearly give OKC problems. Like, clearly they make OKC into the kind of team they don't want to be, which,

like, nobody else seems to be able to do on a consistent basis. Now, that being said, the best teams can play different ways and win.

But, like, I rarely see a team just be like, yo, OKC, going to play offense the way you want to. We're like just straight up getting you out of it. You have to come up with something different

against the Spurs, which is just, you know, that's, to me, that's a feathering their cap right there. Definitely. That means, just different. Like, he's just going to Alaska on his All-Star break, seeing the Aurora Borealis. I was like, I need to go to Alaska? You do.

I got to say, man, speaking of Ringers' social media, Jacoby had a clip where he's just like, I just don't like Wemby. his point about taking the pictures with the monks and posting it on social a little bit of marketing going on Of course there is He just happened to be wearing a Nike jacket

That was very colorful yeah I'm with the Buddhist monks And I'm chilling with KG And I'm alright okay This is all of the best stars in the league Michael Jordan was the most marketed guy in the world Kobe was pantomining a fucking Michael Jordan was the most egregious

coming up with his own nicknames and everything. But, you know, it is what it is. I'm not even saying everyone needs to love Wembe as a personality. I get why he would be grading or you would roll your eyes at this or that. I'm totally fine with that. The book at All Star Weekend. You're like, you know, this is. Was, what is life if not a performance?

Fair. As we podcast, by the way. I mean, seriously. Three clowns in front of a mic. Well, before we clown too much, I, I do. want to raise one more point about the spurs because I never hear it really brought up when we're talking about how good this team is and how great Wemby is and the roster. But like, I think Mitch Johnson this year has proven himself to be an additive coach who is not just like some guy who is

a caretaker of a young star's career. And I'm not using this as a counterpoint because Mark Dagnall is also an amazing coach in terms of coaching in front office. Like, that's a huge reason why the Thunder are number two in addition to just the roster strength. But the way Mitch Johnson has navigated the season. And I would say in particular, the balance between trusting the young players and perfectly sort of modulating what he is asking of the veterans. And I look at the Harrison Barnes role as kind of like case in point here, where early on Harrison Barnes was a very important part of this team. Increasingly over the course of the year, he is not. And is like, you know, moving into a slightly different space, moving into a capacity coming off the bench. I think there are a lot of other

veteran coaches who would hold on to a Harrison Barnes type way too tightly because of the youth of this roster. And Mitch Johnson, I think has done a great job of handing over just enough to keep these guys pushing forward in terms of their developmental timeline, but not leaning on the sure things

of his roster in the way that other coaches might. Speaking of coaches, we didn't mention the Rockets on this list. Nobody had them. How's everyone feeling? Because I feel like they were a clear cut number three last year.

I can't pretend that EMA is, he is part of the reason why I don't feel great about their near-term future. Yeah. The offense is unimaginative. Going in press conference and saying that your starting center franchise player

sucks at defense. Not ideal. I'm still on the Reed Shepherd train. I wish E. May would play him more. Like, the guy can shoot. Seems like that's a quality that would help your team win, but, you know,

I don't get paid millions of dollars Coast of Rockets. I still think, I don't think they're like in a bad place or anything stupid like that. I think they're going to be good for the foreseeable future. But I don't know.

Something about this year with their young guys, it just hasn't felt how I thought it would, you know, in terms of all of them. And that's a man, that's Reed, that's Shangoon, that's all of these guys.

Jabari, who, you know, Jabari, I still have a, I respect what he's, kind of turned himself into where he's like, he came in being expected to be more offensive-minded, especially hunting his own shots. And he's turned himself into a very high-quality role player. And he, you know, there's something admirable about that. I just don't think none of the young guys pop to me in that way where I feel like four

all-stars in a row. There's no top five lift-all boats just conquer of the world style of player. they've settled into a lot of supplementary guys and guys who might make some all-star teams. Shen Gung had a moment. Seems like he's kind of fallen flat, trying to fill that role. But you need a Durant in part because you don't have a Durant at home.

And so I think the biggest case for them would be that they do have all these guys plus picks. They have Brooklyn's next year. So they could go and get Yonis. If they really want to get into the mix there, they probably have one of, if not the best trade packages there. But it kind of feels like they should do it more

than we would have said a couple months ago. And it was like, I don't know if they need it because they have X, Y, and Z. Well, even the long-term projections, if we're talking about the futures of these teams, the wolves trading for Janus and the Rockets trading for Janus are not the same thing because they don't have the Anthony Edwards, right? They don't have that player who's like counterbalancing the timelines to make the future make more sense.

It would just turn the Rockets into a team that is maxing out for the next two years in a way that probably when they traded for Kevin Durant they should have done in the first place. A package around Shangoon for Janus? I think it would have to be, right? It would have to be. That'd be pretty. That'd be pretty interesting. Makes sense.

Yeah, I think it could make a lot of sense. KD into an upgraded Middleton? Hey, man. Wasn't KD always an upgraded Middleton? I see everything through the lens of Chris Middleton personally. You're crazy job. Here's the issue with the Rockets. It's not just that they don't have the young star.

It's that right now the two ways they have to transcend are they need to be more creative offensively and they won't, as we've already talked. about Amyudoka, and their bailout option is Kevin Durant, who is exceptional right now, but also can't be forever and won't be forever. And so it's not even a lack of a second star. It's just like they don't have the way to like problem solve anything in the future, really. They're just going to be like a high effort, high energy, good defensive team that has a certain kind of identity. But like, what is going to prevent them from running into the wall in the way that all of these other young talented teams that we're leaving off of our lists are going

to run into the wall. Yeah. I also have the Hawks down here, just Jill and Johnson plus the draft pick coming up. Yeah. It's just on the fringes. You don't like it. We shishay, really? No, I mean, everything else is kind of up in the air.

But that's a good foundation for something for it. I like that the moves that they're making suggests like a different vision for the team. I mean, we should also circle back to the Lakers just quickly here where it's like they're overhauling the front office, but it does seem like it's just a bunch of Dodgers guys kind of going over the top of Rob Polinka. And I'm like, is that necessarily a good thing? I know they're dominant in baseball. It is.

Well, because it's the Lakers, yes, and the previous front office was just working off. Faze that old ownership the hell out. I agree with that. But it's just like the Pelicans are technically run by the Saints people, but that doesn't help just because they're successful in some other shapes in business. Here's how you know the Lakers need to be phased out. Just Jeannie giving all of these people extensions on her way out. Like, because she knows they would never earn it on their own in the new regime.

Yeah. That's it. It's just like, let me take care of my people as I get the $10 billion from the Saudis. And then boom, I'm good. I took care, y'all. I became a $10 billion. All right, I'm out. Now Walter are going to have to buy you out and your contract is guaranteed.

But, like, you can't possibly be serious about the Lakers and thing. Rob Polinkas demand to lead them through the future. That's insane. Not so much. Yeah, they got a lot to sort out. For as much as I believe in Luca, and frankly, even believe in him in Austin as a duo. I'm one of those people that souring on Luca.

Wow. You're coming to Justin's side on this? I think he's peaked. I think the best Luca, we've seen the best Luca we've ever going to see. All right, you two, Nico Harrison's can get straight out of here. 100% his best days have already happened. He's not going to be better in the future than he is right now.

I just don't believe a single bit of that. I agree he's being too much of a baby at this point. No, but like in terms of like actual like cap mechanics, like it's going to be hard to build a contender next season. They have cap space. They're not. Drop picks that like nobody probably wants because they're just going to be better and probably Austin Reeves on a big old contract.

I just don't know how they take the jump. It's going to be very difficult. Also like you see like with a with a she or like with certain type of superstars like Luca needs such specific things. They have to go on and get these specific guys, you know, to be around him. And good luck, man. He's a he's a coddled child star. Guys, water, like child.

He's a great player, Rob. He's a great player. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like increasingly his success is just, some of it is just gimmicky, bro. Like, it's just like, it's like the grifting and like, oh, he does the this and it's the step back threes, 20 times a game. And I'm good, man. I'm off the Luca boat, bro.

So Luca needs very specific things to win. Do you think, I think we can all agree the Lakers don't have a lot of those specific things right now. No, they have none of them. That's the thing about right now. So I'm not like Luca sucks or anything like that. Let me pause right there. They don't have those things right now. They're about to win 50 games.

Like, they don't have any of the stuff that you're saying he needs, and they're going to win a 50. That's pretty fucking good. For a guy who also went to the NBA final. Isn't there a net rating like zero or minus one? Look, it's not ideal. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not going to pretend it's great. This team, man, like, again, I get it.

I get the production is inarguable. I'm just like, the way this production happens, bro, like, in the playoffs. bro, like this whole can't get, can't be the one-on-one to the rim. Sure. You know, like, it used to be you switched to big out on Luke at the three-point line. I'm just going to

get by this guy and get a layup. Not because I'm so, I'm just shifting, I'm good enough. He don't do that no more. And like, all of that stepback shit and you trash at defense and you're always crying and you're on the floor and

my heart is just swelling right now. I just miss these times. The number of players who can carry you through a regular season to 50 wins and solve enough problems to get you to the NBA finals, that's like a list of two guys. Like I don't know what, like that's a very, very short list. I mean, and look, in the counter example,

like my man, Zach Harper said, it's like they traded for PJ Washington and what's his name and they went to the finals. Yeah, and they went to the finals. there's that there's definitely that but I just I don't know man I'm the Luca thing I used to be here I'm I'm down

I'm down on Luca down on him he puts stress on the day to day of an organization that doesn't show up in like the results and the box score stuff that I think matters how much it matters I think is the ultimate question they can win the finals but I guarantee nobody's gonna like be doing documentaries being like Luca was fucking awesome to play with

in this series like he just went out brought up the TGA Fridays afterward because we were so into each other. I am going dizzy with how the goalposts are moving. Do you want to go to TGA Fridays? I would take you guys out. I'm more of a Chili's guy myself, but you know.

I love Chili's. All right, why don't we wrap it there? Was, great to see you, buddy. Bro, I'm checking the recording. This is one hour and 24 minutes of podcasting. This is historic for you. I saw it go by an hour and I was like, oh, God, we got to wrap this soon.

Like, this is a lot. Welcome back. The new era. It's just beautiful in perfect group chat fashion. Super, super happy got to come on with you guys today. Hell yeah. Happy to have you, Was. Yeah, great to see you.

All right, let's wrap with there. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Ben Cruz. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll be back on Monday. I think it's solo pod for me. I might just do a full cowhord session. Just going down the results, going through the agate page by myself.

We'll talk to you then. Thank you.