The Ringer NBA Show - Game 3 Reactions With Rob Mahoney | The Answer

Episode Date: April 23, 2022

Seerat is joined by the Ringer's own Rob Mahoney to discuss some of the exciting first-round NBA playoff action, starting with Grizzlies-Timberwolves and whether Karl-Anthony Towns and Co. can recover from their devastating Game 3 collapse to turn the series around. Next they analyze the state of Warriors-Nuggets and ponder whether Jordan Poole's current play with Steph Curry coming off the bench makes Golden State the new playoff favorite (23:36). Finally, they debate the Utah Jazz's lackluster defensive performance against the Mavs' offensive surge and talk about the futures of those teams and players in these playoffs and beyond (41:16). Host: Seerat Sohi Guest: Rob Mahoney Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Chris Ryan, I think, is out. They're somewhere in London getting drunk celebrating Joel and Beads game runner. So we have with us, Rob Mahoney, from the Ringer. So happy to have you. How you doing, Rob? I'm sorry I'm not Chris Ryan I wish I could be Chris Ryan but today we'll try to bring a Chris adjacent energy to this podcast I would say I actually wake up every morning and those are my affirmations I look in the mirror and I say I'm sorry I'm not Chris Ryan and that is my way of

apologizing to the universe and I hope that in exchange it gives me abundance and it has it has we have had honestly like one of the most exciting first rounds usually takes a little while for the first round to get to get hype. But this is this is a time in a series where I really start to love because of rubber starts to hit the road. We had Grizzlies Wolves game three, jazz mavericks game three and Warriors nuggets game three. All the cliches have been true for all the series now. We have had road wins. So it means the playoffs have started. And that's why I'm actually really excited to have you on today because tactically, you are an absolute genius. A genius in many ways, really. Yeah, no, I'm going to be nice today. I know. It's crazy.

It's crazy. I'm blushing. I mean, this is an audio medium, but I'm blushing all over this podcast. I will say, not only do I think a series doesn't start until the road team wins, I think the playoffs don't really start until some prominent starter gets totally benched to deal with a matchup. And that's kind of what we saw in the, in the Grizzlies Wolves getting, right? Stephen Adams, out of there. Brandon Clark, Kyle Anderson, you guys are in. And all of a sudden, that series looks totally different. Yeah, completely. I didn't, I didn't think it could get worse than a 10.4th quarter for the next. and then the wolves just did us one better. That was a crazy game last night. And yeah, to your point, Adams is a minus 14 in the series,

Brandon Clark plus 13. And that, to me, has actually just been the difference. I'm excited to dig into this one, but that's a great place to start. Where do the wolves go from here now that Stephen Adams is no longer going to be on the basketball court? I was actually at games one and two. And game two, I think the grizzlies actually got a little bit lucky. They lucked into the fact that Adams got foul trouble real early.

he was out in the first two and a half minutes of the game and we didn't see him after that. We saw some Brandon Clark. We saw my guy, Xavier Tillman. They are playing small and they're a team that can play small and still be really physical and still be really big. It's gotten the wolves in a little bit of a tizzy. It's gotten Carl Anthony Towns and a little bit of a tizzy too. I still think this is going to be a pretty long series. These teams match up really well against each other.

But yeah, we're going to have to see some adjustments from the wolves. Well, you could see just in the runs in this game. And there's obviously the big. 21-0 run that got the grizzlies back in it. But the wolves had their own 12-0 runs, 10-2 runs, kind of all throughout this game where they were putting their mark on it and they were imposing their will on it. And they were really controlling it in a lot of ways. I think in some sense in a way that was unsustainable.

And we saw a little bit of reaping what you sow in terms of some of the process stuff that was working for them early. And it's complicated because it's on the one hand. Pat Beverly is driving right past John Moran in a way that is flat embarrassing. That should not happen. But the tradeoff for that is then Pat Beverly ends up taking maybe more shots than he should in the fourth quarter because he's really feeling it. And so you get this benefit from him early and you get the cost of it late. And there's a similar thing going on with Daniel Russell where it's like he makes some great plays over the course of this game,

but then presses a little bit too much when he gets going. and when Carl Towns is nowhere to be found for a variety of reasons in the fourth quarter, that stuff really hurts you. And it takes away, it makes even what the wolves were doing well feel like it comes at a cost to them. Yeah, I thought it was actually an incredible slow play by, by Jod, to let Pat Bev beat him for the entire first quarter just to completely demolish him. Unreal. Because it just, you know, it got the wolves out of their game.

Is that all you saw as being unsustainable, just those two, you know, because I think it's the same sort of deal with theilo. Obviously, you rely, like, you can rely on him a little. bit more on offense or a lot of bit more on offense than you can pat but it's not a dilo series uh the grislies are just really really really aggressive and they're really really physical um if jaw wasn't on the court i think dilo would probably be the skinniest man on the court but for him it really actually actually we're also getting some really like dylan brooks has figured out how to foul in the playoffs and get away with it like he's like if you look like last year in the playoffs they played the

jazz and Donovan Mitchell just continuously got him into foul trouble, like just kind of coming off of a screen, pausing and letting and Brooks crash into him. A lot of those calls aren't fouls anymore, thank the Lord. But Brooks is also, you know, he's just gotten a little bit trickier. I saw some some really nice pushes from behind when the reps weren't looking, just a little nudge. And with a guy like DeLo, that's, that's kind of enough. And that's not just Brooks. It's going to be when when Bain is on him. And it's going to be when he gets down low, like when he switches on Brandon Clark and Tillman as well. It's been a tough series for him to get going in general. And that first half, it was like, okay, he's here. He's arrived. And we then kind of got the bad end of it, too.

Well, you know who has not learned how to foul in the playoffs? This is our good friend Carl Anthony Towns who cannot stay out of foul trouble in this series. And I think in a way that really hurt his game and then has all the ripple effects for guys like Delo. Because if Towns is out there and aggressive and able to not only space the floor but attack, everything gets so much easier for DeAngelo Russell, for, you know, for Anthony Edwards. Like, these guys just have different lanes and different opportunities if Towns is an aggressive player. But as we've seen, when Towns picks up his fifth foul fighting for post position and comes

back into the game and just, like, can't drive the way he wants to, can't post up the way he wants to, he ends up just kind of floating out there. We did a NBA sort of playoff Jeopardy preview last week. And Chris picked Towns as the guy who would be most likely to get suspended from picking up too many technical fouls. I had Luca only because I think we got to pick up seven. And it would just be a lot to pick up, you know, one per game. Like that's just even for somebody who complains as much as Towns, it would just be a lot. But, you know, he hasn't really fallen prey to that much.

I think he needs to dial it up a little bit against the refs. I think it's time to pick up a technical or two. Bring the battle to them. I think so. We'll talk about Nuggets Warriors later, but I think it benefited Yokic that he got ejected in game two. He didn't win the game, but he got a few more calls and that he,

you know, he wasn't getting on the road. But yeah, game one and two, he spent some time in foul trouble. In game two, he had some, he had some tiki-tack fouls that were like,

come on, man, like you just can't make those. And Chris Finch actually said that as much after the game, looking at Townsfowls in game three, I got feel for the guy, man. I feel for him. He gets a tough whistle overall, I'll say. He does.

He's a little flimsy. Like, I think him and Jaron Jackson actually have the same problem in that, like, they probably foul as much as, like, Sharon Jackson probably fouls as much as, like, your average defender does. The way that his body moves, it makes it look like he's out of control. Whereas, like, you get a guy like Draymond, like, he's fouling the crap out of Yokic all night, but it's like, he just can't tell because he's just like he's a brick wall, you know, like his arms move but like his his elbows don't as much i guess i don't know we're uh we're getting

into some some deep body analysis here but yeah i think i think it's it's time for towns to dial up the physicality a little bit more too like just kind of like that that game one i think he just kind of went for it he didn't really let the foul trouble bother him as much either but at the same time like i also think that the grizzly is the way that they're defending him is really smart i don't know how much they can really like the wolves can really do about that i guess so they they guard him with Bain essentially or Brooks on the perimeter or, you know, like, you know, sometimes I want to Jaron, but essentially it's that. And then like if he gets out to the post, they bring it double. And then they, you know, you can, you can try to beat the Grizzlies with passes,

but, you know, it's your funeral really. Like, they'll just kind of get on transition on you. And there are some moments where, you know, they would run a pick and roll and get a switch on job before they went down there. And that I think works a little bit better. But in general, I think it's just a really good strategy. And we're kind of like, we're going to be going into game four and I don't think that the wolves have actually found like an appropriate counter to it other than trying to make towns make like cross court passes all game and yeah I can work every once in a while right but it's just not I it's it's a really dangerous strategy I think against the grisly is the time if towns is going to crack something this is the time to do it because you have

some games on film not only against that initial matchup with stephen Adams which is off the table now but some of these smaller looks as well whether it's guys as you were saying like bane or like brooks kind of cross-match. They're doing kind of like weird zone matchup kind of stuff sometimes to keep towns on an uneven footing. But then Anderson is just straighting up guarding him some. Obviously, Clark will get his moments doing that too. But it's all about those second defenders. It's all about forcing those passes, putting him in pressure situations and seeing how he deals with it. And Carl Towns is a guy who kind of lives in his own head sometimes on the floor. You can see him thinking out loud and processing where the pass is supposed to go, where the defender is coming from.

I think he's actually gotten a lot better at it over probably the last season and a half, but he's not there yet, clearly. And hopefully getting some of that stuff on tape and seeing what those angles are can help him a little bit. But ultimately, he kind of is who he is at this point. And you're not going to be able to funnel an incredible amount of offense through him. They're still going to have to kind of triangulate between him and Russell and Edwards in particular to make this thing work. But you can get more than six. shots. You know, you can be more of a presence than you were in game three, absolutely. Yeah,

I almost wonder if it's time for, for some rotational changes there too. And maybe this invites Adams back onto the court in a way that can play into the wolf's favor. Can we get some towns, Nasreid minutes? Oh, interesting. Well, if you're going to bring like four guys to cat, then you might as well have somebody trying to get an offensive rebound that isn't him, you know. I mean, I think theoretically Jared Vanderbilt is that guy. He's kind of been theoretical, though, a series. A little bit. But he's valuable defensively. And so like that's the thing with this team that's always so interesting is they're very reliant on Pat Beverly and Jared Vanderbilt for their defense. Those are the guys you want to flex out of a series for offensive reasons

sometimes. You want to have more spacing. You want to have guys who can attack a little bit more. And so then you're stuck. Like who, what kind of team do you ultimately want to be? Because I've actually really liked Minnesota's defensive energy in this series. Like they're playing up and into the Grizzlies a lot. They've done a great job bringing it in that way. it's just they're getting beaten transition. They gave up this huge run in the fourth quarter of this game in particular, and their offenses falling apart on them. And I don't know how you do that other than you need a little bit more structure

in what you're running. And maybe that is where all eyes turn to Chris Finch refusing to call a timeout in the middle of these massive runs, which really, really cost Minnesota in this one. Yeah, I mean, I know you had some thoughts on that. So, like, I can just give you the four there. I'll just say this. Like, I think I'm a little bit agnostic on this issue in general. there's obviously the whole Phil Jackson let them play through it and twist in the wind kind of thing.

I don't really care one way or the other, whether you call the timeout. But when you're star players in foul trouble and then out of the game, that's when you need to call a timeout when a team goes on a huge run like that, and especially when they come back all the way to tie the game. Like when Desmond Bain hits that three to tie the game in the fourth quarter after this massive run, that's a timeout. That is a, okay, everyone come back. I don't care whether you put towns back into the game then or not.

not. That's honestly one of the toughest coaching calls in sports. Other team goes on a huge run. Your best players in foul trouble. When do you pull the plug and put them back in? That's a really hard call. But you can at least get the guys over there, guys who have never been in big games before, like Edwards, who, like Russell has never been very good in big games before. Like, I don't know who you're relying on in this case to figure it out because there just isn't a track record for any of the guys on the floor doing that. Yeah. There's two things there too. I think we just saw a little bit too much after game one. You know, Edwards killed Adams on those on those drops.

After they went away from that, the wolves kind of just went away from Edwards. Now, he had like a pretty bad first half in game two. So I get why, you know, you want to maybe go away from him a little bit. But at the same time, it's like you're not really getting a lot of scoring. If it's not Braden Clark, I still think that he's going to be able to get to the rim at will. And then you don't really have as much shot blocking in there. And, you know, he's a little bit more of a stabilizing force. So I don't think he's a young player.

He doesn't make necessarily the best of decisions all the time. But if you don't have towns in there, and they also, like, they did look discombobulated. I also went back and watched and, like, they missed some threes that they just normally wouldn't miss. Like, Beasley just missed two in a row from the left wing. Beverly, who you let shoot, like, but miss, like, a wide open from the right wing, too. They got unlucky as well, but they just looked like a little bit discombobulated. And I think, I think the Grizzlies were getting them to shoot the shots they want them to shoot. But I hate saying this because I love the way that the wolves play.

But is it like is it just time to slow things down and just get like some some towns in the high post and, you know, circles running around him action going? Because like you got to get, well, you got to get him more involved somehow, right? Like through Grizzies going to play super physical. And they're still like they're still putting smaller guys on him. So like let's maybe take a little bit of advantage of that. And I also wonder like, I was going to throw this at you. Like what do you think about starting with Daniels and just giving him the job assignment? Yeah, I don't know about that because I thought.

they actually did a good job and Pat Beverly did a pretty good job overall of keeping jaw out of the paint for a lot of this game. They did a good job building a wall in front of him, seeing lots of hands, lots of defenders. I'm not sure how much that changes the dynamic of what they're doing. Plus, I guess in that case, you'd be taking Vanderbilt out. Is that the idea? Yeah, actually, let me amend that a little bit. You make good points. I'd almost make it more so, like in the moments of town's going to be out, especially if he has foul trouble. I'd go to McDaniels because I think that he brings a little bit of extra energy. But also, So, like, you know, looking back at this game, to Towns credit, especially in that first quarter,

his room protection was pretty solid. And when they got him out of there, there's a lack of depth beyond him, at least for like somebody's just like really big, right? And maybe that's a Nazreid thing. Like maybe there's another way to do it. But I almost just like, I just want more long bodies on the floor. Well, you certainly come to the right place. Like McDaniels is so great for that.

And I've really liked his energy on top of the fact that he's hit some huge shots in the series already. I think there's been a lot of promising stuff from him as a key piece of this core going forward. And so honestly, maybe you put him in a more central role not only to compete in this series, but just as a point of developmental emphasis. Like he is a guy we need to be important to our team. Let's see what he can do. Let's stretch him out a little bit in this big time matchup in which he's been pretty effective so far. Let's see the range of what that could be for us. Yeah, yeah, because like I think every playoffs, like for the teams that make runs,

there are guys who kind of like role players who end up stretching out their games and doing things that we don't necessarily expect for them. And McDaniels seems kind of just primed for that to happen. And it's, it's almost like, I just feel like the wolves kind of need to get out of their own way and allow for that. You know what I mean? Like it's, he's showing you something. So just kind of like, let's, let's keep one of the well.

Well, these conversations are now intersecting because as far as who's guarding jaw and what's happening there, actually thought, you know, Jah was pretty well contained until the Grizzlies just went to spamming John Morant, Brandon Clark pick and rolls over and over and over. And that's where you get into this role player thing you just mentioned. Brandon Clark completely changed this game. And it's honestly what I love most about the playoffs is we're all zeroed in on the stars. We're talking towns. We're talking Jha. We're talking to Anthony Edwards, all these matchups. And yet it comes down to one role player completely changing the complexion of what's happening on the floor. And Brandon Clark,

did that. Like he completely changed this game. Yeah, Brandon Clark has always completely changed this series. Like from the moment that they, you know, inserted him over, over Adams. Like, he has been, he's been offensive rebounding. He's, he's, he's catching lobs. He's like a right place at the right time type of guy. Him and Jha almost have like a telepathic connection at this point. Like, they, they just play so well off each other in picking roles. And he's, he's defending everybody. Like, I think he's probably been, I haven't checked the numbers on this, but he's probably been the best Edwards defender on the Grizzlies. And, you know, just the fact that they can switch and lose nothing on those, it just,

that's when the wolves offense gets really mucked up, like in game two, especially as well. Like that they started playing some hero ball. They just kind of started like, you know, it's, it's crossover, crossover jump shot. And that's not the wolves at their best. The wolves at their best, you're kind of like having three separate ecosystems and you don't know what the hell to do because like there's, there's Carl Towns and you got to double him. And then, like, well, you can't kick it out to Anthony Edwards and let, like, let him beat your, like, he's going to beat your guy on a closeout. And then, you know, Russell's going to hit every shot. Like, that's what makes the wolf so tough. They can defend one on one. Like, I think that's just kind of the grizzly secret, right? Like, they have a lot of guys who communicate really well on defense and they do a lot of creative stuff. But they also just don't really have a lot of vulnerabilities either. Like, like, you got to bring help side on towns, especially if you're going to go small. But other than that, they just really, like, they've been able to play this. series pretty much straight up outside of towns. Well, it goes both ways, too. It's not just

Brandon Clark and Jared Jackson and guys like that being able to guard Smalls. It's, as you allude to earlier, Desmond Bain being able to guard Biggs and Dylan Brooks fouling the hell out of everybody to the point that he can guard anybody. Being able to kind of shrink those margins in height when you're in those mismatch situations, that's playoff basketball. That's why all of these games, like all these ones we're going to talk about, they all devolved at some point into can you create in one-on-one situations against switches. And if you can't do that in the playoffs, you lose. That's just, that's the whole thing.

Yeah, and I guess that's just kind of the weird thing with the wolves. And also what I think was going to make this still a longer series is that they've got some guys that can do that. This one's going to be fun. Do you have any predictions by the series yet? Where do you see it going from here? I mean, I think the Grizzlies win. I think we've seen enough movement in it, especially since the early struggles.

But just how dicey this game looked, I think speaks to how competitive it can be. The Grizzlies can be in the driver's seat and still give up big runs because their half-court offense is what it is and it's going to hit walls sometimes. But I love their bench. I love the control they get out of those second units. I love that they can plug Xavier Tillman into this series and he can be a meaningful part all of a sudden. And then you look over on the other side and it's like, what are the wolves getting from anyone who isn't in their starting lineup? Not named like Nas Reid, basically. That's a really good point.

I think we're going now with we have this series and we have. have the play in, we have moments from a series against Utah, where the Grizzlies have kind of proved the notion that you can't play your bench in the playoffs wrong. I think they're honestly one of the only teams that that's been true for. I feel like they're the exception that really proves the rule, really, because you know, you usually just can't, but they just have such smart players off the bench. And guys who can reasonably create, too, like, I feel like that's usually what happens in the playoffs. Like, you know, most offenses will be like a bench defense, right? And I think the Grizzies bench defense is better than, well,

Joss sits down, you know, like that's honestly a big part of it. They look like grit and grind 1.0 when it's the bench, right? Like, it's just, it's just impossible to score on. And they have really smart decision makers on the offense event where it's, it's enough. Like, you know, like Desmond Mayn's going to make the extra pass. And so was Brandon Clark and, you know, Tyos Jones. One of the best bench players in the league.

Just straight up one of the best bench players in the league. That fourth quarter, like that 12 minute mark pretty much. up until like the seven minute mark in the fourth quarter for the wolves like I was just watching and I was like they miss like it I think they probably should have had Delo on on the floor there but like they just miss a Tyos Jones type of guy like they need an off the bench floor general and of course he would just you know Tyos Jones going home and just just ripping it on his own team is like that's got to be depressing for Wolf's fans I'm sure they're all like yeah no we know we can use Tyos Jones in fairness to the wolves I think we all need a Tyos Jones you know when we're speeding up when we're spiraling in our own lives we need to our backup point guard to come in and just like, okay, let's chill out, let's settle down, let's do what we're supposed to do. I could certainly use that, you know, these first couple rounds of the playoffs. My brain feels like it's going a million miles an hour sometimes. Rob, I feel like you're like my ties, Jones sometimes. Wow. That's honestly, you know, you called me a genius earlier. That's the biggest compliment you've given.

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1-800 next step or text next step to 53342, 1-8-8-889-7777. Or visit ccpg.org slash chat, Connecticut. 1-800-9 with it, Indiana. 1877770 stop, Louisiana, Tennessee Redline, 1,800-899-7-8-8-9, Tennessee, 1-800-2-470, Wyoming, or visit 1-800 gambler.net, West Virginia. Speaking of backup point guards, but one that maybe shouldn't be playing so much in the playoffs, let's switch over to Warriors Nuggets. A little bit of FACU action in that game.

Fun stuff, fun stuff. I thought you're talking about Steph Curry as the backup point card who should be playing. They should just do that for the whole playoff. See if you can win finals MVP coming off the bench. Yeah. Like just just really give Managing nobody a run for his money. Like we thought that was unselfish. Steph Curry coming off the bench for an entire playoff run would be absolutely hilarious. It did feel pretty cruel in this game when in the first quarter like the nuggets are really in it. They're fighting. Like they're looking so much better. And then you realize, oh my God, Steph Curry hasn't even come into the game yet. You know, it's like the tsunami that you don't see

coming. There's a storm going on at home, but you're like, you're dealing with it. There's a tornado. but it like, you know, it, it criss-crossed and it didn't hit your house. So you're going to be okay. And you just take this moment to breathe and you're like, okay, all right. That's okay. Like, we're going to stay in this, right? Like, we're going to get like the nuggets. Like it's called an early time out.

Then from there, like, Yokish really started to get going. I was like, okay, maybe, maybe this is, they can stabilize this game. Then Steph Curry checks in off of the bench. And it is honestly, like, they've done it a couple times, like, especially when he's hurt. Like, I think they did it in the Pelican series a couple years ago. And it really is the ultimate gut punch because you just kind of like in the flow of a game, you just kind of forget.

And then he just comes in and it's over. It's also tactically like there are reasons I tactically like it. Like Jordan Poole coming off the bench this entire season, like every time he's had to do it, like they were finding. I think if they had like another two months in the regular season, they would have figured out how to get Jordan Poole going with Clay and Curry. But when those guys all came back, Poole had a tough time fitting in. And I think starting him is really smart.

Because like Steph is Steph, right? If you bring him off the bench, he knows he's Steph Curry. And not to say that like at this point Jordan Poole knows he's Jordan Poole. We know he's Jordan Poole. But there's degrees to this. He doesn't know himself like a two-time MVP does. Exactly. Although he might win five at this point.

Like I wouldn't put anything past Jordan Poole right now. Yeah, no, no, no. Like there's absolutely no ceiling for that guy at this point. He's awesome. And it's also really funny because I mean, I wrote a piece about Jordan Poole and like the idea development, really favoring a player who fits really well into a system. And then actually, like, goes out of his way to become, like, the players in that system. Like, first of all, it's just like plug and play.

And if you're a role player, like, they're not going to change anything for you. So it's really smart of Jordan Poole to just become like the stars, right? Like, I think for any player. But then, you know, on the other end of it, too, it's like, I was, you know, I was wondering, it's like, is this going to eventually be redundant. And, you know, going to go into the off season, obviously the Warriors, you're going to have to figure some things out. But now you kind of have, you got, you have steps.

And the only problem with Steph ever is that he gets hurt at the wrong time. So if you just, if you just have Jordan Poole for those moments, it's kind of, it kind of is like, it's what makes, like this is light years, you know? Like this is like Joe Lacobs saying the winning never stops. Like this is how you ensure yourself against the things that used to happen to the Warriors. Like you just, Steph Curry's hurt. It's all good. We've got another Steph Curry. And all you had to do to get there was draft a dude with, was that the 20, 20.

the eighth pick who turns out to be another Seth Curry. I mean, no big deal. We're going to find a Hall of Famer in the second round in Draymond Green. This is apparently just what the Warriors are going to do from time to time is find these incredible players with menial draft picks. I really don't understand the pool thing.

And you keyed in on it on the way he plays and channeling his own career on more of a star trajectory, which is a very hard thing to do. And frankly, it almost got Jordan Pool benched a bunch of times. Like, we've seen his, his, his role like Steve Kerr yo-yoing with his role trying to figure him out trying to figure out as you're

alluding to what combinations you should play him in it's it's tricky when a guy is that talented and wants to play that way and can play that way when the bottom falls out and he has a rough game or a rough stretch or a rough week and it's hard to place players in that situation but the payoff for sticking with it is this and it's you see pool make shots that are just unbelievable like i i was watching the grizzlies game and i'm watching desmond bain and some of the shots he makes, I'm going, wow, this guy is a capital G great shooter. Like, there are a lot of, there are a lot of very good shooters. Bain is a great shooter.

And pool blows him out of the water. Like some of the, some of the makes, he had a high pick and or a side pick and roll, pulled up to Marcus Cousins in this game, wide open lane to the basket. Could have been like an easy layup. Instead, does a stutter step dance into the left corner. Yeah. And hits probably the dumbest and best shot I've ever seen, you know, like get side swatheye wiped in the process, probably fouled, complete, pure swish.

I don't understand how he's doing any of it. But the fact that he is and the fact that they can reach this kind of equilibrium between him and Steph and Clay without any of those guys feeling like they're excluded is an incredible magic act. And it's what's making the Warriors look kind of unbeatable in this context. Yeah, absolutely. They're looking like old times again. Now, if you look at, you know, the sun's, Devin Booker's going to be out for two or three weeks.

And this Nuggets team is not good. So I don't want to overreact too much, the Warriors being up through yoga and some. But I think the Warriors are kind of favorites again. They're playing like it. Absolutely. And it's not just the Devin Booker injury, but also looking across conferences with the Chris Middleton injury and an east that's like, who's going to come out of the East at this point? You know, you have Miami, you have Boston, you have Philadelphia playing really well. Are any of those teams going to be up to snuff against a fully operational Warriors team?

I don't know. Yeah. Will the Warriors be able to sustain fully operational? Warriors mode for consecutive rounds against better competition because as you mentioned, this Nuggets team, shout out to them for making this game competitive, but they're not up to this. They do not have the horses for this kind of series. So I am very much looking forward to see the Warriors meet someone more on their level. I hope that is the Sons with a healthy Devin Booker back in the lineup at some point. But it's hard to watch a game like last night and

think, oh, somebody is going to beat that team four times. You know, and it kind of goes back to a pool point, right? I'm now surprised at when he misses. Like, it's, it's kind of like with Steph. I'm like, you got lucky he missed a shot. And like with Clay too. And Clay, you know, on offense, it seems like he's just all the way back now. Like, and that's, that's huge for them as well. It just gives him so much firepower. But they just have a lot of, they have a lot of continuity in what they do and they have so much depth that at this point, like, I just don't know how you get them to stop firing on all cylinders. Like, they paid as much as a, like, it's got back into it. Like the Warriors were hot and they started playing a defense optional game and it

it really shouldn't have been that close, you know, aside from Yokic, you know, there's just guys on that team, but like, you know, they should just be able to guard and they should never score on them essentially. It's going to be really tough to beat them because like, you know, you got like yesterday, you got Iguodala back and then like you start Looney and we don't like, you know, hear from him for the rest of the game and you know, like Draymond, Lunei, Iguodala, Peyton, like they can all kind of fit into the same sort of role, the exact same way that Clay, Steph, and pool all fit in the same sort of fabric too, right? Like, it's just going to be really hard to get them off their game. But the one thing I was looking at, well, like, we should probably do like a little bit on

Yokic here just because the internet and everything as well. But the only thing I can see messing with them is a team that, you know, has a presence down low that also has perimeter. threat. And, you know, I think like that, that could be the Sons with Aiton. It could be Memphis next series, right? Like, there's just, you see the problems that Yokic gave them down the line, especially in the second half. And that's, that's the one thing I look at. And that, that to me is just like, it, we get, like, I'm really excited. I'm projecting out this future moment where, you know, Steve Kerr just goes crazy. And he was like, yeah, we're going to put Gary Peyton to straight up on Stephen Adams. I'm just really excited for that. It is tough to imagine,

what is the formula to beat a team when they're operating at this level? And it's like, if you think about the best Warriors lineups, are they more vulnerable offensively or defensively, which is a crazy thing to ask, but they perform at an elite level, even when they have lesser defenders on the floor. So I don't know. It's hard to imagine picking them apart. But then you start to think about what the prerequisites would be, as you said, in a team like me, and a team like me, and you're not, Memphis who they have the switchable bodies that we talked about. They have bigs who can block shots without being anchored to a position like Jerry and Jackson Jr., Brandon Clark, these are guys who come in from the weak side, who come in from behind you to block when you try to drive,

who rotate really well. And if they can be on top of their stuff and keep their best players on the floor in Jerry Jackson Jr.'s case because he's also been in foul trouble for basically his whole life, then they could make that thing interesting. But maybe it doesn't matter if you keep it interesting if the Warriors are just going to pop off for an eight-minute stretch where they obliterate you. That's really what's so dangerous and what's so scary about playing this team right now. But what we haven't seen yet is anyone really press Clay defensively yet. Because I think his shot is clearly there.

He doesn't move quite the way that pre-injury Clay did. But defensively, he's just kind of okay right now. And I'm curious to see if teams can stretch, you know, Steph has had a good defensive season, but he's still Steph Curry. he's still small. He's still like, you know, active hands, but you can exploit him with size. Pool is a pretty engaged defender, I think especially for his age. But again, ultimately a guy you can work a little bit. And so if you have them and Clay and can find some inroads attacking those guys, then maybe there's something to be made of a series. But you really need high-level players to do that. You need to be on the Grizzlies level or on the Healthy Sun's level to even have a hope of doing that.

So who knows if we'll actually see it. Yeah, I mean, I hope we do. Because I just, you know, the better the warriors get, the more I'm like, I want to see these guys get tested. Like, this is all fun for them. They're having a good time right now, right? Like, it's not really, it's not really all that serious. The other thing I look at with them, too, is, like, you know, going down the line, like, a lot of, a lot of Yoko just points just came from, you know, like getting, like, finding a way to get B-Elita on him. That's a vulnerability there that I think a better team could exploit and then take into, like, actually winning a game.

But, you know, the Nuggets just don't really have that. What do you think of the MVP conversation around Yokic right now? I think it's a regular season award and I don't know why we're talking about it. Yeah. It's very strange. Like, I don't know how many times we can say this. Like, I really don't, like, Nicole Yokch could go out and sit at half court and not move for the entire series and would still be the regular season MVP. It just doesn't matter.

These are irrelevant data points to what we're talking about. He's not going to be finals MVP. I'll tell you that because this. Nuggets team is quite bad. What's concerning most about this series from a Nuggets perspective, concerning isn't even the right word, because they obviously have guys who can score. They're just not healthy. And so then you have Aaron Gordon, who in this game three, had his best offensive game by far. And by that, I mean, really the only game in which he had an impact at all offensively. And that's what you're dealing with. It's like, Nicole Yokic's playoff fate,

ultimately, hinges on, is Aaron Gordon going to do anything offensively? Is Will Barton going to hit spot up threes. Like, what are we going to do with our Austin Rivers minutes? This is what his team depends on. So I just don't see anything instructive in really taking anything away from Yokic's performance at one way or the other is saying, this is some overwhelming proof why he should have been the MVP or this is a clear case why he shouldn't.

It all seems pretty irrelevant to me. Yeah, it's strange that we have, we're having this conversation because the whole point of Yokish winning the MVP was that his team sucks? Like that was the entire idea. That was that was the whole plot the whole season was weird to like they they don't have anybody and he makes them look like somebody. And for the record that was also kind of the Joelle Embed case too was Ben Simmons isn't even here. Look what Joelle's doing with all these role players. Nobody fully trusts Tobias Harris and yet Embedde is still dominant. They really have similar cases in that way. Do you have any Warriors death line of nicknames?

I like how there's just a universal project. to create these nicknames now. Like, this lineup is clearly great. I haven't seen any that I love. But one kind of avenue I haven't seen mind yet is no one, I haven't seen anyone really dig into the San Francisco of it all. Because this is really, the death lineup in many ways was an Oakland slash Oracle inhabiting creation. This is the first time we've really seen them in Chase Center with a team this good.

So can we get like the venture capitalist lineup? Can we get the angel investment lineup? Can we really kind of needle the situation? Angel investors, no. Iguado would love that. The seed capitalists. Come on. Yeah.

It's catchy. You're right. And as a Bay Area resident, you know, I'm glad that you kind of dug into that bag there. What's what I'm here for? I'm here to bring the local color, as we know. The one I liked most was Fast Five. Yeah. That was a good one.

But it's the Chase Center. Like maybe there's something there. Oh, interesting. From a pun angle, or what are you thinking? Like, I don't know. You got to chase. I don't know. I hate it already, like, as I'm saying it.

This is the problem with these, especially lineup nicknames. They're almost always too cute by half. You know, like the death line of work. It was just like a weird organic spur of the moment thing. And ever since, we've been trying to, I was going to say chase it, but now I'm walking into the puns again. And we're just chasing after that same high over and over. I don't know the wherever we're going to get there.

That's kind of like watching the Warriors and just. general, right? Like, just like, take me back. Take me back to twice a scene. We're forcing it a little bit. You know, I think it's time to let go. I think everybody should actually just stop trying. That's a little nihilistic in general, I'll say. Well, you know, when you're stuck on a feature, when you just can't figure out what to do, like, you know, you can stare at it for a while. You've got to do that part, right? But then after a while, I think the most productive thing you can do is actually just walk away. And then you'll be doing something else and it'll just come to you. So, like, let's, as a collective, just decide to stop trying to come up with a nickname.

And then, who knows, by, like, the third round, maybe, like, this is always how it happens, right? Like, the opponent or, like, one player just makes, like, a quip. And you're like, oh, yes, that's exactly what it is. Like, that's all the, like, you know, it's just like, Blake Griffin, like, finding out that Chris Paul is going to be on the clipers. And he's like, oh, it's going to be Lobb City. Or Tony Allen, grit and grind. Like, that's where all this stuff comes from. Exactly.

So let's, let's take a step back. The only thing is that's not a very warrior's mindset. Like the step back, let's not, like we were just talking about Jordan Poole basically speaking his career into existence. I don't know. Maybe there's something to be said for forcing it. In some ways, it is a little warriors-esque, though. Like, I think they, like, first, like, they're all about going with the flow, right?

Like, they just want to find the flow. They want to find the flow. And I think that's kind of like how the offense operates. Like, they're not like a pick and roll heavy. Like, we're going to know exactly where the shot is coming from. time type of team like they're they're the opposite of that they kind of just let the game come to them that possession where uh step and draymond just did like 15 given goes in a row that needs that needs to that needs to go in some kind of museum i don't know like video jiff form it was just

he'd even miss the shot i don't even care it was a perfect moment it did yeah it didn't matter it didn't matter i was like what like watching that i was like just thinking like is i i feel like draymond almost going through like not an actual paralysis by analysis thing but there is i i almost feel like I can feel his brain on like hyper overdrive just because there's like three steps on the floor for him now. He's like, who should I run this dribble handoff with? No, Steph's backdoor cutting and clays in the corner. Like, I don't know. Like, there's, there's only one of me. It's really a multiversal kind of problem that we have all these steps on our hands now. Yeah, that's abundant. Absolutely. But I'm totally with you. Like, some of the most exciting moments in

sports are the moment when a player like loads up when you know they're going up for a dunk. like Spencer Dinwiddie loads up to challenge Rudy Gobert. That's an exciting moment. I love the moment where Draymond loads up puts the ball in his pocket, and he's just watching Steph or Clay or Pool. And you see exactly what he's looking at. You know exactly what Steph and Clay and those guys are doing. And yet the defenders are just, they're helpless.

Like they're face guarding. They're doing everything they possibly can, but they are five steps behind whatever the action is going to be. You can feel them pause now, right? Like, you'd always feel like this pause, right? It starts like this, this anticipation builds in the arena. And, you know, like, there's always somebody like, there's a big man who's like realizing, oh, no, I'm like, I'm way too far from Draymond right now.

He's like, someone's just going to like come off the screen and pop on. And I'm going to look real bad. It's so much harder now because now they're looking everywhere. They're like, oh, God. Like, we've got to find Steph. No, pool, no clay. It's tough. Yeah, I don't know what the answers are supposed to be.

and if anyone out there does in terms of what you're supposed to do with the Warriors, I guess, forward them CC to the visitor's locker room at Chase Center and we'll see if we can get it to the right people, but it does not look like a team that can be solved at the moment. A team that has been solvable for two years running now, the Utah Jazz. I thought you're talking about the injured Warriors. I guess they were also very solvable. Still probably not as solvable as the jazz. I love the jazz because they make me wonder if players actually regret this whole idea of like saying, like, tell, like, the media needs to pay more attention to the actual game because we're really paying attention to the actual game when it comes to the jazz and it's just not looking good for anybody involved. It's fun because it's like it's like this pot for like hot takes, but the hot takes are like rooted in tactics and they're rooted in like, you know, like can like, you know, it's going to be really

the defensive player of the year if you can't do this, this, and that. Like that is, that is still a much more high-level conversation than we used to have about hot takes. And somehow, even though we still, we look at things differently now, we just, we can't find nuance, though. We can't find nuance. And that's, that's why. You expect too much of the human race. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I do. I guess I do. But that's, that's again, why I'm happy to have you here. I hadn't never thought about it that way, but you're exactly right. Like every player who's ever complained about the media not taking their craft seriously, understanding the nuance of what they do, I don't think they had Donovan Mitchell getting destroyed every time he tries to play defense in mind when they were saying

those things. Because the subtlety of this stuff, the nuance of this stuff that the jazz are doing, especially defensively, it's not great. It's not pretty. This does not reflect well on pretty much anybody involved. Yeah, no, no, they're like, look at the nuances and we're like, oh, yeah, we are. And they're like, oh, shit. They dug into how much Donovan Mitchell is passing to Rudy Go Be able to Breakdown did a video about that. That was quite good. It's highly entertaining because it's like it's shade, but it's like the actual thing. It's not like anybody actually saying something.

And that's kind of like what the jazz have been all season, like just these, these remarks about, you know, things that are actually true that just come off as shade. I guess because they're actually true. Like it's kind of kind of start with like the Rudy Gobert complimenting Devin Booker as a, as a. defender turned into a passive aggressive thing about Donovan Mitchell, which was a stretch, I thought. I was actually going to say it was masterful. I thought, like, just in terms of the people in your life, you know kind of what the pain points are for them sometimes. And you know, like, the one thing that if you said it to anyone else, they wouldn't care. You compare anybody else to Devin Booker. I don't think they really care that much. But for whatever reason, that really

seem to strike a nerve. Yeah, I don't know why Devin, Devin Booker versus Donovan Mitchell has always, it's kind of always been this constant debate. They're not even in the same draft class, and they're not really that similar players other than that there are like perimeter scores. And somehow it has like, like, you know, the Sun's Twitter versus Jazz Twitter has just been off on that, like pretty much since Mitchell has entered the league. I don't know, I don't know what he was trying to accomplish, but just from a, you know, I'm going to throw this grenade into the locker room and see what happens perspective. I guess mission accomplished in that regard.

Maybe Gobert was actually trying to do something there. No, no. Did not achieve the intended effect, I guess, in that regard. Yeah, it hasn't gotten Donovan Mitchell to play any better defense though. So they went small in this game. And this is another moment where, you know, it's like the tactics say something so loudly. And then Donovan Mitchell after the game, there were very few post-game. questions in which you couldn't find him funny like making a comment about how they went small um and this

this isn't all just like shade against gobert but like i'm just going to give you a couple of these uh they went so they went small and they went they went plus 13 against uh against the maps in the minutes that they went small wasn't enough to win them the game then they also ended up going back to gobert we'll dig into all of that but i just want to do these mitchell quotes first biggest thing is we found something we haven't done that can be taken as a shot at Rudy Gober. I think it's probably more appropriate to see it as a, it's probably not a shot against anybody,

but we're going to do this. Well, they did try to go small in the season, like with Rudy Gay. They tried that whole thing, and it was an absolute disaster. But they hadn't tried it in quite this combination before. Like, Eric Pascold of the Five is new-ish. Yeah, it shouldn't be that new, but hey, you know.

Biggest thing is we found something we haven't done, that I will take that as a shot at Quinn Snyder. A little bit more nuanced. later, when we went small, it forces us to try to have to shift in as a team. It takes us to a great mental place. He was talking about the increased defensive intensity, which I thought was also throwing a bone at Gobert in a sense that, you know, he talked about it later in the press conference that sometimes when Gobert is on the floor, the perimeter guys kind of get lax in their intensity because they just know that they have such a good defender behind him. And he also

called him the best room protector ever. And there was also another. quote third quarter obviously when we went small the spacing was different being able to get downhill made some reads easier and hit a pass in the corner yada yada yada that's essentially what we saw when they when they did go small so yeah what do you what do you make of this series because it is simultaneously the most depressing to one deficit i have ever seen while also leaving us with some encouraging moments because the tactic shift did you know it led to some good stuff for you that could probably be revocable. It did lead to some good stuff.

And weirdly enough, because the Goberra conversation always centers on defense and like, if this is his value, if he is the defensive player of the year. Right. Why can't he guard and switch situations? I think he can, for the record. But like, why can't you do all these other tactical things other teams are doing? I didn't think their defense was great. It wasn't.

But you know what worked is they just scored every fucking time. Yeah. And so some of it is specific to this matchup, right? like Dallas's defense, they do not have anything resembling a Rudy Gobert level rim protector. What they do well is they guard together, they guard in space, they play up. They really are reliant on each other to shrink the floor when guys like Donovan Mitchell have the ball to create crowds that he can't work his way out of. And so if you stretch the shape of that, where every player is one or two feet closer to the three point line,

all of a sudden you're getting dunks every time. And so with Pascal on the floor in this game, the Jazz's offensive rating, was 148 points per 100 possessions. That is face-meltingly unsustainable. Incredible offensive surge from them in those minutes. They're not going to do quite that again, but that was the difference to me. It really wasn't about our defensive intensity, our mentality.

It's like if you score every time, the game is going to be a lot easier. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. And this is like, it is part of the Rudy conversation that we don't really have enough because we are, to your point, like way too focused on the defense.

of it. It was just like it was a layup line. It was a layup line and a corner three line basically. And you know, it was also some of the most efficient looks that Mitchell got all series, right? Like pretty much when Gobert is in the game with him, it just turns into like Euro step floater town. And, you know, Mitchell can definitely make some better decisions in those moments. But it's also like you see it with Conley too. It's pretty much anybody driving into the lane. They, you know, there's somebody's going to, like, you're going to have somebody step to them. pretty much every single time. Like that's just, that's just what it is with Utah. They just make, they make life too easy for,

they make decisions too easy, I think, for, for a defense, way easier than they should be for some, for a team that has somebody as talented as Mitchell on it. And I think that might be more key than any personnel situation or like, go bear or anything. Like, you just, you got to make, you got to make your opponent think. And when it's Donovan Mitchell or really anybody, you know, driving into the lane that's about to get to a layup or am I going to help off of Rudy Gobert? You know your decision every single time because the guy shoots like 25% outside of the rim.

Like he's just really bad outside of the rim. And he can't, you know, you don't want to let him dribble. And, oh, if you're the jazz. Like if you're Rudy Gober, you don't want to let yourself dribble. You know, even on the catch, he's easier to strip than pretty much every big man in the league. and it speaks to, I think, like, this lack, the lack of versatility that he has just really hurts their offense. Like, to me, the issue with him is way more on that end than it is his defense at this

point. And you wrote an article last year, actually, about, or maybe it was two years ago, you can, you can correct me if I'm wrong about the importance of versatility from that big man position in the playoffs. Like, is that, you know, you can have three-point shooters and, like, you know, every team's going to need a creator. but like the key to really getting your offense to run at like a five cylinder level is having that bam at a biotype, the Draymond Green type, you know, DeAndre Aten type,

like a, I mean, we can name guy after guy, but basically somebody at the four or five position that is going to be able to get to the middle of the floor and make multiple decisions, whether that's, you know, a little floater or like, you know, just, you know, being able to hit that pass on the other end. like it's in the corner. You know, and you also wrote a great Siakum feature from a couple days ago on, you know, just he has become one of those players as well. Like he's just like he's really good at getting to the middle of the floor.

And I think he said something along the lines of, you know, once you're in the middle of the floor, you can see everything. And especially if you're a big guy, right? Like you can see over pretty much the entire defense survey everything and then make a decision. And I think that's really what Utah is missing. and maybe that's I don't want to give him too much help for it either because I think in the trade deadline they knew that they tried to like you know I think they're they're getting a lot of criticism right now for their personnel and I think Quinn is also getting criticism for like I do think that he could be a little bit more creative but at the same time like they just don't really have that type of of of guy right like they tried to make Rudy gay that guy like Pascal is not quite that guy although I do think they like you know they need to go to him more and that is is essentially to me what Goberra lacks. It's the ability to kind of be a secondary or even a tertiary decision maker from that place because it just, it just boggs everything down for them.

It's one of the biggest deficits in his game, but at this point, I don't know why you would possibly or how you could expect him to become that. You know, he kind of, he's going to be what he is. And I think you meet him at that point and you say, are you doing those things effectively? And that's where I look at a game like this and it's like, Rudy Gobert plays 29 minutes and had zero offensive rebounds against Dwight Powell and Maxie Kleba and Dorian Finney-Smith. And the Mavs are very good about rebounding in crowds. It's what they do. But you got to be more of a force offensively in that regard.

Because he was catching some lobs. Mike Conley did a great job of setting him up. But otherwise, you're right. Like with the way the jazz offense is built, they don't have that guy who's going to redirect possessions from one option to the other. There's a reason why they rely so much on getting you in the blender and getting you rotating and getting you overextended because. If they have to shift themselves from one option to the next, they don't really have the personnel to do it.

And so that's why those small ball lineups are so effective is they were getting the maths rotating so much. They're getting layups and threes, as you mentioned. When they're not creating in those circumstances, they're not moving anyone enough. They don't have the ability to dramatically shift their style. They really do play one way. And they can get to, you know, Boyan Bogdanovich has had a great series, like just creating against mismatches and finding his angles and. spots. He's done a really good job within the role that he can play, but there are limits to

this stuff. And it's tricky, though, because if they were any good defensively in this game, they win, and we're not having this conversation. Their offense has been, for the most part, fine, fine to pretty good, I would say, in this series, but they can't guard anybody. I don't know what you're supposed to do with that other than we're going to point to Dodd Evan Mitchell, we're going to point to Jordan Clarkson. We're going to point really to every perimeter defender on the jazz roster because none of those guys are doing their jobs and the system is not built in a way that can sustain that. That's actually a really good point about the system. I think they need to give Gobert a little bit more freedom to rover around as well. You know, I think like those are the things

that end up making him look bad on a, you know, if you want to cherry pick videos and everything. But at the same time, it's like the way that they have him in the drop and they have Hassan white side in the drop as well. That's another man like, you know, playing Hassan white side minutes and not getting any offense rebounds is a huge altitude, right? Like both those guys need to play with a lot of force. Like, Obert needs to play with way more force. He needs to be rolling harder. Like he just, he needs to just be all the way in it on offense in a way that he just hasn't been. He just looks like, he's a little disengaged on the end. He was like times what it looks like he doesn't even like want to catch the ball. That's its own issue. But I like, I look at

this team and I'm like, okay, like they're the perimeter guys are also like, you know, Mike Conley is old. And small. Yeah. And I just, I think that regardless of what happens in this series, like, they are going to need to have some wholesale changes. And, you know, it's, it's fun to talk Rudy Trades. Like, I was, I had this.

I was going to do this thing, like, basically just like, yeah, like, if you look at, like, the Hornets or the Hawks, they are kind of perfect destinations for Rudy Gobert. And if I was like, if I was in that front office, I would go to Mello and Trey. Or like, if I had like any, any, like, young scoring guard who didn't play defense, I'd be like, you better start playing better defense or we're going to trade for Rudy Gobert. And he's going to be your pick and roll partner for the rest of your career. This is very mean and undeserved, I'll say, undeserved on Rudy Gobert.

It is mean. It is mean. You don't think Lamello would jump at the chance to play with Rudy Gobert after rocking with Mason Plumley this year? You don't think he'd be eager for that? Okay. It was just the fact that he hasn't had that type of guy. But if you replaced him with like, let's say, like, with a hawks, like you look at it, like, you know, Clint Capella. I think I'd rather, I think I'd rather run with Clint Capella, a healthy one at least, right? Or John Collins.

It was mean. Because I said that yesterday, as I've been thinking about it more, I wonder if they should kind of take the tack of like the Lobb City Clippers even and look for a four that can play alongside Rudy. Like, look for that versatile guy. Then Rudy can just be the five and you don't like give him all the hell. not being all these things that he can't be. And then, you know, getting those law passes over to him will be easier for a format anyway that it is for Mitchell. But yeah, like, are there any, like, where does his team go from here, essentially?

Like, are there any deals that you like for them? Well, I mean, let's see if they get out of this series first. Like, this is just 2-1. You know, I'm not blowing anything up yet. But they should, though. Like, they can make their second round. But, like, this is, they are, Luca's not playing. Right now.

Very concerned. And we should talk more about the Mabs and what they're doing well, too. But I will say from a philosophical standpoint, I would love to see Gobert in Toronto. And really, I'd love to see him paired with a coach who will do different kinds of things defensively. And this is why I brought up the system and the scheme earlier, because the conversation on Rudy Gobert is the idea that he is a limiting factor in how you play defense. He is a drop big. That is what he needs to do. That is what your system will be.

And therefore, those are the limits. Those are the parameters of what his impact on the game can be. I don't think that's necessarily reality, and there are a lot of times, and this game is, I think, a big piece of evidence in this discussion, that the jazz are a little too dogmatic in playing the way that they play, and that Rudy could actually be more flexible. Because if you look at some of those possessions in which he ostensibly did something wrong, it's like one possession, he'll rotate away from Dorian Finney Smith in the corner because Donovan Mitchell got completely blown by on the perimeter and he's trying to meet a guy at the rim and it's kick out for open three. Next possession, he sticks with Dorian Finney Smith and Donovan Mitchell gets blown by or

Jordan Clarkson gets blown by and it's a layup. I don't know what that guy is supposed to do in that circumstance, but if you put him with more capable defensive personnel in a system that allows him to do different things. Like, can you imagine some of Toronto's like weirdo zones, but go bears on the low block or go bears in the middle or doing whatever you want him to do? Because he's, as I mentioned, he's actually a pretty decent switch defender. I think he's actually more versatile than he gets credit for. He just can't guard everybody.

And that's where the jazz are. I love the Toronto idea just because, like, it just has him lean even further into this thing of like, let's just get all the guys with the biggest wingspan. at their position on the floor. Tie their arms together. They should. They should. Yeah, for sure.

Like, go Red Rover on this and just see what happens. I love it. I love it. Like, you have four guys on the top. And then if you get, if you get through, like, you got Rudy at the rim. Like, it's just, it would be almost impossible to fend. I don't know how they would score. But, like, that's a problem for another day.

Yeah, well, you know what? If they get enough stops, like Pascal and, uh, and Scotty Barnes running together would get it done, you know? What did you like from Dallas in this game? I'd probably just say like the matchup hunting above all else. Worth noting that in the fourth quarter of this game, I don't think they ran a single play. It was just can we get one of those small guards in a pick and roll and let's just keep doing that over and over.

Yeah, and you know, to Utah's credit, they just provided a menu of options for them to take from. A boundless feast. It's just kind of easy for the Mavs. They have Brunton and Dinwiddie two guys who can create off the drivetty. create their own shots that are smart and impatient and a bunch of shooters around them. So you might not have Luca Donchich, but you can kind of replicate that system over and over again with those guys and get just like run really simple, smart offense.

And it just, you know, that's just kind of what they did all game, whether it was, you know, even when, even when the jazz went small, it didn't really kill the Mab's offensive flow at all. Like they got a couple of threes. They got a couple layups and, you know, they kind of just kept doing their things. thing. And it was just, it was just a different defender that was being broken down essentially, right? Like, but that's, it's just, it's just, it's just really easy right now for them, honestly. Like, it's just, you just play, play simple basketball, do your thing, like, makes, make some kickout passes, swing it, like, I don't know. Well, I think it is, it's simple. It may not be easy,

but it is simple. And that's a big problem for the jazz, because theoretically, their defense is supposed to take the simple stuff away. They're supposed to force you into tougher long twos and stuff like that. If you're if you're just working around all of the structure that they put in place, as Jalen Brunson has throughout this entire series so far, you're going to lose. And Brunson has been so good in manipulating those situations and stringing out pick and rolls, in playing Gobert. And, you know, no one for the Mabs in the series has been very successful at the rim. Like, Gober has actually done a pretty good job of that when he's been around and you've seen guys like Dinwiddie think two and three times before they try to throw up a layup or a floater and get

blocked a bunch when they do one massive dunk aside really but brunson's not a really good job of keeping gobert in those intermediate spaces where he's neutralized not guarding the three but he has to hang around because the guards are getting blown by and then you get brunson pump faking 15 times you know doing step the step back into step through kind of moves to get all kinds of little runners that's what he's so good at that's why that space is particularly dangerous if you can get into the paint and make defenses freak out a little bit and then still control them. That's how you win a series like this. That's how Jalen Brunson, for the series so far, averaging 32 points, five assists, five rebounds,

one turnover a game, 60% true shooting, outplaying Donovan Mitchell. I mean, that's really bad news for the Jazz. That just on a one-to-one level, their best player is not matching up with the Mavs, you know, second best creator in the shadow of a guy who could come back soon and just be even more dominant than that. Yeah, no, it's not good news. And Brunson is, he's so good in that like mid-paint area. Like he's just at the furor guard. I mean, you know, like this is what I love about Villanova guys too, is that they just like, the positional inversions are so fun with them. Like, they bring guys in for a couple years and like, you're just going to work on the things that you

aren't good at or that aren't really necessarily part of your game. And it ended up producing like the most fun NBA players ever. because now you enter a league that, like, that isn't really designed to, it's like the NBA is not designed to defend a guy like Jalen Brunson. Like, it's not just a Utah jazz problem, right? Like, it's, he, he kind of presents, like, these impossible puzzles because he's actually just such a good post-up player and he's so good from this area of the paint line, which I almost feel like has become, like, the new mid-range.

Like, defenses are doing a pretty good job of taking the mid-range away in this, uh, in this playoffs. Like you see it with the Celtics and KD. You also like the wolves and grizzlies play like a similar style too. Like where they're like, you know, like we've had enough years of guys like I think, you know, going to the nail to help that they've kind of mastered it. And now the area just slightly below that, that floater area is just like that that's where you can really win a series now. And that's the evolution of where the sport is. Because even a couple of years ago, I remember I was doing.

doing a story on the Rockets after they traded for Russell Westbrook and kind of figuring out what was up with them. And one of the things they were telling their players at that time was basically to never take shots from this range. Obviously, Houston's always been a fringe case in terms of like we want threes and layups and free throws. At least they were in that era. But they really did not like these floater range shots. Their philosophy was you should always be taking one or two steps more and trying to get to the rim and trying to draw fouls. but there is a that leaves an inefficiency to exploit if defenses know that you're going to play that way and defenses increasingly know what shots modern offenses want. They know how to take away not just threes but sidestep threes and step back threes.

They know how to take away not only the midrange stuff you were talking about, but how to crowd the best midrange shooters in the world out of taking some of those like do or die playoff winning shots that guys like Kevin Durant or Devin Booker or Chris Paul can hit. And if this is kind of what's left is this little square on the floor in the middle of it, I think that puts a lot of players in really interesting positions. In particular, some of the guys we've been talking about, the bigs who can get into that space and make plays, the guards like Jalen Brunson who know how to manipulate your body and get you off your feet so that they can find little ways to score. And it's really changed Brunson's game, the fact that that is now a fertile piece of land

in the middle of the floor. Because the question going into these playoffs for him was, how was he going to deal with length? He just had not been able to prove himself against longer defenders in the playoffs yet, in part because he missed a whole playoff run, I think it was the one in the bubble. And so he needed to kind of show that he could do that.

And Utah not exactly the best test case for length. Obviously, they're very small on the perimeter. But even when they put bigger defenders on him, even when he has draws a big, or has Royce O'Neill or has Boyan Bogdanovich on him, he's getting what he wants. Because he's smart and he's strong, too. like he's got a good base and like you said he can just pump fake you to death and eventually find an angle

last time before you get out of here so the jazz went back to small ball for like a brief period in the fourth quarter and then they went back to go bare and I was curious what you thought of that and I was curious what you see kind of going forward because that to me felt a little bit like you know Snyder just might not have a stomach to stick to it well is it stomach though or is it a little bit of a reality check. This works for one game. You know, you throw Eric Pascal in there, to our point about how predictable the jazz are, no one is expecting them to play small in this series, and yet they throw it out there and they succeed. What happens in the next game that they try it? That's kind of where my doubts and my reservations about the small ball thing will go. And for the record, I think

they should absolutely continue to do it, certainly in place of the Hassan Whiteside minutes. Like, there's just no reason to play Hassan White'side 7 to 10 minutes to 18 minutes or whatever in these games. So whatever you want to take Rudy off the floor, you should be playing small one way or the other. Maybe that's Pascoe, maybe that's Bogdanovich, whoever you want to put in that spot. And you live with some of the tradeoffs of that. But as far as like a dominant strategy, Gobert has to play in these games. They just don't have enough good players to not play him. Like go Stephen Adams on him.

Sure. Yeah. But like how much variability is there really? They already don't really pass him the ball very much. they play him a moderate amount in games like this again 29 minutes in this game i would think he's going to play around that to slightly more in most games of this series and so you again you just kind of are what you are as far as that stuff goes the question is can you put your guys in better positions to succeed can you do anything schematically defensively to scramble the mavs up a

little bit because they're not they're not running anything advanced they're not doing anything challenging they are just straight up beating your guys and so what can you do structurally to help them. That's kind of where I would start. I almost feel like they're going to have to go offense. Just go heavy on the offense to win this series. It certainly worked for them in their best stretches of this game. You know, when Conley was throwing lobs to Gobert, that version of the offense worked too. Like there are ways for Gobert to be involved in that to partake in the offense.

They can still be really productive. But you have to be consistent with that stuff. You have to have an eye for him because you can play five out all you want, but if you're not looking for the guy who can get an easy dunk against the overreesome, rotation, you're just wasting possessions. Yeah. So you need the scramble either way. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm a weird place with a jazz where like I feel like there, I see an avenue to a game for a win. I see an avenue like, well, if Luka doesn't come back to even like making this an interesting series. But I also don't see an avenue to the jazz being a team that matters long run in the Western Conference. Yeah.

The trade or the, the opportunity is definitely there for them to win games. And you can see it just in the box score. You can see it in things like Maxi Kleba, who is, I guess, Clay Thompson now, Davis Bertans and Josh Green combining to make 11 threes in this game. That's not going to happen all the time. And so from a maker miss perspective, in a game that was pretty close down the stretch, a couple of Josh Green threes don't go in the first quarter and maybe this is a different game. Yeah, maybe.

Maybe the probabilities are different. So they need some, but this is the story of the Utah. There's always something. There's always the aberrational three-point shooting game that every, everyone points to, they just have to win these games. It just goes back to the predictability thing, right? Like on those Josh Green 3 is like, there's some pretty poor contest by Gobert there.

And I get that he has to like account for the rim, but like the guy in front of you has the ball and he's going to shoot. So do that. The players will make it about Gobert. But I think there's just a confidence now when you play their defense because you know where your shots are coming from. Totally. And that's what has to change.

Well, and to tie these games together a little bit, One thing that would worry me if I were the jazz are some of the possessions where the Mavs had guys like Josh Green who, again, understandably do not get guarded at the three point line. They had him doing some like Dremont kind of stuff where he would catch it and he would flip the ball and set a quick screen for Bertons who's curling around for a three. It's like the exact kind of action you want there when your guy isn't being guarded. You don't want Josh Green driving into Rudy Gobert. That's not productive for anybody. what you want is him setting offball screens that confuse the defense that get shooters open. And if the Mab shooters are hitting their shots, they're going to look really, really good in this series.

And they have enough guys they can kind of cycle into those moments to see, okay, if Doran Finney Smith isn't hitting tonight, maybe Bertons will. Maybe Spencer Dinwiddie will hit some off ball threes. Maybe, you know, Maxi Kleba. I have no idea how he's shooting this well. It just been a real tough sledding for him until he went absolutely supernova over these last two games. You was shooting like 18% or something, right, for like the last like two months of the season. Now like 81%, you know. Regression.

That is exact regression, actually. Crazy stuff. Yeah. Rob, thanks so much for hopping on. I'm sure we'll have you back later down the line in the playoffs. Any time. If I can come in here and be a Tyas Jones presence, again, I'm taking that all the way to the bank. I'm putting that on my resume.

I'm going to print some business cards. This has been a lot of fun to do. Thanks, sir. Yeah, no problem. No problem. We'll definitely have you on again. Go read Rob Seacom feature. Okay. Thanks, man. Appreciate you. Thanks.