The Ringer NBA Show - Gary Washburn on Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, and the Boston Celtics | Real Ones

Episode Date: March 23, 2023

Logan is joined by national NBA writer for the Boston Globe Gary Washburn to discuss Jaylen Brown’s recent comments on his future with the Boston Celtics and his complicated relationship with the team. Finally, they close out with their Real Ones of the Week. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Gary Washburn Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's no secret the NFL has a problem with race. Think Colin Kaepernick. Think Brian Flores. But this isn't a new problem. It's one that started as far back as the 1930s, with a ban on black players in the NFL, with a past that informs the present. Blackballed is a new mini-series podcast from The Ringer

about the four men who broke the color barrier in football. I'm your host, Chelsea Stark Jones. You can find Blackballed on the Ringer NFL feed. Was popping, real ones. Logan Murdoch here. No Roger today. Man's is on vacation, but I got a legend in the building instead. In light of all of the things that are happening in Boston and with Jalen Brown and the comments that he made, both to me and the New York Times, I really wanted to get somebody on the pod that has really been ten toes down in Boston, in the Boston scene, and also on the Jalen Brown Beat over the years. My O.G. Mr. Gary Washburn, columnist at the Boston Globe. How you doing, Gary?

Hello, man. Good to see you. Good to talk to you. It's good to be a real one for like an hour, man. I'm feeling like, you know, I'm feeling young again. So yeah, be a real one. For only an hour, though, that I'm going to lose my superpowers. But yeah, it's good to be here. You always are real. We'll stop playing, man. So we're talking in light of Jalen Brown, who made some comments to myself, also to the New York Times, but the biggest comment came, you know, when he talked about his future in Boston. And it's a very nuanced way of, a nuanced story. And it's, it's not just a story based on respect and a whole bunch of different things coming together. And full transparency, I went out to Boston, kicked it with Gary

for eight days in January. And I remember talking to Jalen. And it just seems like so much indecision on what he wanted to do, not just on the basketball court, but off of it, right? It just seemed like there was a balance that he was trying to have just as a man and by extension a basketball player. And I think that that came through in the article,

and the biggest thing just going backwards, you know, Jalen has always been the subject of trade rumors, has always been a, just kind of a curious guy and also had a complicated relationship with Boston. So I guess my first question to you, Gary,

who's been on the ground this whole time. Where does this complicated relationship that Jalen has with Boston? Where did that start? Well, I think Jalen came to the league with a chip on his shoulder. Obviously, he played a year at Cal. We were both familiar with that year

where he was all-pack 12 player, all freshman of the year, all the accolades for a one-and-done freshman from Atlanta. But, you know, when the draft came, there was some kind of from red flags. I'm going to talk about character, nothing like that, but his game, right? Like, could he shoot?

Could he be, you know, just much of a physical presence on the floor and the NBA as he could in college, all those things? So when the third pick came up, there was a local, more a local player on the board, Chris Dunn, who had a really good career at Providence,

led to the tournament, was kind of this masterful point guard. And he was on the board too. So there was kind of a, for the Celtic faithful, there was kind of a, you know, a desire to draft him third. And when they drafted Jaylen at the draft party, there was a draft party because the Celtics didn't have many third picks. And this was the year that they had a third high pick. And there was, I wouldn't say booze, but there was some, like, who is this guy? Right.

And living out here now for more than a decade, like northeastern, Northeastern, Easterners don't really care about college sports, and they don't surely say, I don't watch the Pax well. So no one really knew who Jalen was. In all honesty, half of those fans at the draft party probably had never seen a college game. They had only seen highlights, right? They had probably never seen him play. So when they drafted him, there was this kind of, who is this dude? Some dude from Cal, where is that? Where's Cal? Who'd they beat? That year, they lost in the first round of the tournament to Hawaii, a game I still haven't gotten over being a Calgary.

But so I think he, and he came in believing that they didn't believe him, not the organization, but just like they don't even know who I am. And now that he's developed into an all-star player, he's become a good shooter. You know, there was a real question mark about his shooting ability once he got into college because he was, I think, a 30-percent, three-point shooter in college. he's carried that chip on his shoulder. I think a lot of his slogan is just Jalen having that like they don't believe in me.

And I don't think that Celtic fans are particularly hard on him as they are in Marcus Smart, who has his ups and downs, and some are on Jason Tatum. But I do think Jalen kind of takes some of that internally. And then we also have to examine it was a talk about some of the things he said and done since being drafted. But I think it all began, Logan, that draft night where he felt like they don't even know who I am.

He felt slighted from a fan base that, and we talked about this, Jalen could have played at Boston College and half the Celtic fans were never seen him play. That's how little college sports is regarded in Boston. Right. Like there's an ACC school in Boston and nobody cares. So like I think Jalen might have not understood that. And know that they, oh, y'all wanted Chris Dunn. And there were some people who really did want Chris Dunn. And as we've seen, the Jonah Brown pick turned out okay.

It turned out, it turned out all right, man. It turned out good. But I think one of the biggest things that I got, especially not just talking to Jalen, but also talking to people around him and also people that were there with him during those first couple of years. And they say, and this is not just an indictment on Jalen, this is an indictment maybe on all of the young guys that, you know, after all that success, they wanted everything so fast. And they had to go through those growing pains. And a part of those growing pains is trade rumors, which is something that every young guy sends to go through on those during the first part of their career. When Jalen is hearing,

yo, we're talking about going to, you know, trading for Anthony Davis or Kawhi Leonard or all these different guys every summer. What does that do to him? I think that motivates him with that, that irksome because he doesn't feel like he's as much a priority as Jason Tatum is because Jason's never really been the subject of trade rumors because Jason's been considered the untouchable player.

And that has not affected their relationship. I want to get this straight. And we talked about this too, Logan, like, Jason and Jalen are fine. They're good. Okay, they're different cats. And I think, I'm going to this and you'll laugh at this. I think there's a perception that all your 20-somethings are all alike. All you do is listen to play video games and listen to Drake, right?

So there's a stereotype that there are a lot of light. They're not a like. They're not a lot of light. Jalen's a thinker. Jalen's real politically active. not that Jason is a thinker, but they're just different kind of cats. Jason's a dad. Jason's got a five-year-old son that we all know, Deuce.

Like, he's been a dance since he was 19. So their paths are different, right? They're just on different wavelengths. Doesn't mean they're not cool. They don't have a healthy, high respect for each other. And I think the important thing is to realize that both know how important each are to each other's success. Jason ain't winning a title without Jalen. and Jalen ain't winning a title by Jason.

So I think that their relationship is good. I think Jalen's like, well, how come I'm not on that same path of untouchable? How come I get thrown into all this? Because the NBA rumor cycle, when everybody has a trade machine in their computer, they can throw in, are like, well, you know they're not going to trade Jailant, Jason, but they'll trade Jalen, right? So Jalen's name, even in time when probably he hasn't been the subject of trade. trade rumors becomes a subject of the trade rumors, especially when KD becomes involved. And going back to the KD situation in 2016, I think it's 16, so whatever, what's the year you

signed with the Warriors? 17, sorry. 2016. No, you got it right? 2016. Okay, yeah, December 2016. I'm probably. They just lost the calves.

So that summer, he actually visited, like, he entertained the Celtics. They brought Tom Brady. They brought, like, the whole brass went to the Hamptons and talked to Kevin. There's always been this fascination about, well, what if Kevin were to ever play with the Celtics? Then Kevin said, I think they could during a shoot around with the Warriors. Man, I like the way they do things here. Like, they honor their OGs. They honor, they retire the numbers.

They, like, always have, like, ceremonies and stuff. I like the way that Boston does things. That fueled even more kind of like, oh, Katie likes it here. You know, because there's not a lot of players over the history of the NBA, Logan, who have said they like Boston, especially black players, right? Like, that's a big deal. I mean, this has been a place where it's been, in a sense, stereotyped in terms of, like, how blacks were treated.

But they've had a lot of black players. They had the first, you know, they drafted the first black player, Chuck Cooper. Bill Russell was the first black coach. in the NBA history. Casey Jones won titles in the 80s. When most organizations weren't hiring black coaches, Casey Jones was running things in Boston, Doc. So they've had history of racial diversity,

but there's also the stereotypes and some of the stories that are true, what happened to Dee Brown, when he got aroused by the cops, all things that have happened over the years. So the fact that Katie said has shown kind of like an openness to Boston has always fueled these rumors that he may play here one day. So when he requested a trade,

the question was, well, the Celtics desperate for a title, Katie, wanting out, what would it take? And you're not going to trade Tatum or whatever, because he's the untouchable. So then Jalen's fame gets thrown into it.

Then the rumor that Brad Stevens offered Jalen and Derek White and draft picks, and that was what I think Jalen was like, oh, wow, okay. They're just trying to move me. I'm just, you know, I'm just a piece of property. That's all, and that's always been like an insecurity of his, that he is a piece of property for a bigger organization.

Like that goes back to college and before then. Yeah, being a part of the system, being a victim, being a pawn in the system. And that's where a lot of pro, I say not a lot, Logan, some pro athletes have a problem with this thing, you know, problem with not only being one black governor being thrown into deals. Some understand that it's a business, that, you know, shoot, Will Chamberlain was traded, Shaq was traded, you know, I mean, most of the great players of our games have been, Kareem was traded, have been traded.

But I think one thing, and not to get you, I think one question that I have for this, and you've alluded to this in this, in this discussion, is the thing about Boston, And this is something that I think Jalen sees. You talked about the KD stuff. But also, in his rookie season, he sees what happens to a guy like Isaiah Thomas, who, you know, after, you know, he has a death in the family and plays his ass off

during that postseason, immediately gets traded, right? Or you see even before that, when Jalen is growing up, he sees a guy like Ray Allen, who is a pillar of that organization, brought them a title, is constantly in trade, rumors. And that also builds on the insecurity that he has with, you know, with Kevin and how he's not treated based, based on how other superstars are treated because he is a superstar at this

point in time. He is one of those guys. And he's seeing this. So I guess my question to you, Gary, is how much do the Celtics have culpability in this? Because I think the biggest example is last summer where Kevin Durant is on the trade market and the first thing that you do as an organization, or at least it's leaked is that you're dangling one of your stars after he leads you to a finals birth

that you guys didn't win the finals but he leads you to this and he is a very, very big component of that how much culpability does the Celtics front office have for consistently

dangling Jalen and not making him feel like the superstar that he feels that he is and rightfully so. Well, there's a lot of responsibility. First of all, the Isaiah Thomas thing

sent still like has impact amongst the league because Isaiah took a bullet for the organization in many ways and took a bullet for a lot of guys the reason there is load management is Isaiah Thomas. You can say

that it's Kauai Leonard, you can say that the reason that players are like, no, not playing not playing on a bad hip is because Isaiah lost $100 million over playing on a bad hip because he went out there after he had that injury, he got landed on by Carl Anthony Town to the March game

that year and kept playing on it and finally couldn't play on it. And Danny Ains saw an opportunity to get Kyrie Irving, which obviously didn't have the success. And we all know that, but back then didn't nobody know Kyrie was kind of on one that he sacrificed Isaiah and a lot of players around the league had issues with that. They had a issue with, a lot of people had an issue with how he was treated, that issue with Boston, an issue with Danny. And it was a regrettable time. I think for Dan, I think Danny didn't want to make the move, but it's a chance to get

that long-away to championship. And you thinking Kyrie is a player to put you over the top in Cleveland. And remember, if Kyrie doesn't request a trade, I don't know if this happens. Karee remember he wanted out of Cleveland. So that had a big impact, I think, on players around the league and the perception of the organization of like, well, when you use goods, we're going to ship you out of here. So I think that all set in Jalen's mind, I think just being, and feeling like, you know, let's be honest, like he's a 26 year old man, Kevin Durant's 34. Like he's like, okay, so like I got, I got prime years left. I just beat you in the first round of the playoffs, dog.

Like, why am I going to trade it for somebody that we just handily just beat? That's disrespectful. Eight years, eight year age difference between the two. So he's saying it was up, wow, like, y'all just going to ship me. I'm entering my prime. I haven't even scratched the surface. And I think that's what feels Jalen to work a certain, like, just really hard to improve his game, improve his pre-bow shoot, improve his handles, improve his jump shot.

is that kind of like they don't think that I'm worthy. And also, I'm just scratching the part, my prime. I'm just scratching the surface of my potential. And y'all just want to throw me out there to get Katie. And there was people in the organization, you know, some who felt they should do it, some who felt they shouldn't. Some who thought so highly of Kevin Durant

that they were like, well, we like Jalen, But, you know, like, so he heard all that. How much of the element of that was the fact that weeks before Kevin demands a trade, the ownership obviously is reeling from a loss, you know, the owner Wick is reeling from a loss from like his little homie, Joe Lakers. And is like, no, I don't want this to happen again. Like, it's really pride here. We need to go hurry up and win a title right now.

And how much of that you think that blinded some people in the organization? to say, oh, the way to win a championship right now is to get a guy like Kevin Durant, even though these two dudes, the two J's, have already led us to perennial postseason bursts and probably are the favorites next year to make it to the finals, how much of that was in play where some people in the organization, their pride was a little messed up because of the way that they lost in the finals. How much of that was in play? Yeah, I mean, obviously, you got the competition between the two owners.

Lacob, if people don't know, was a minority owner of the Celtics before he went and bought the Warriors. So here's Lakeb, cleaning up. I mean, the Lakeup era, I mean, you were there when the Chris Cohan years, when they boot him at the All-Star game. I mean, you might be a little young for that,

but they boot him at the All-Star game in two. I was there. I was there. I remember. He was representing. With your little Vince Carter jersey on. So like, you see the vibes. So, like, so like the Co-An area, I mean, you know, the Warriors were always a joke of an organization, but they were always kind of considered a sleeping giant. Then Lakeup buys a team, obviously with Goober.

And then they moved the team. I think the plan was always moved the team in San Francisco. They've got an arena done, deal done and all that. So, yeah, I think Wick did have this kind of like, he started seeing, you know, his eyes got big. And it was like, man, we got to figure something out. We had to do something dramatically different for next year. than we did this year. This growth thing is great,

like taking steps, going to the Easter Conference finals and finally getting over that hump and going to the finals, but losing in the finals, I think, definitely had an impact. Also,

there's this apparent video that a member of the organization released of Jason and Katie working out in the summer. And I think Jalen looked at that and was like, oh, damn,

the team, like, they make it look like, and I just think it was kind of like, you know, um, Jason back to back in the lab right and it was like and I just think they Jayley might have taken that as like endorsing a trade and so well he said to me he was

like yo man I see I did to see what the energy is what's going on here like y'all over here looks like y'all moved on for me already after I mean there were times and I'm just paraphrasing and this is my observation he was better player in the finals and the finals and we both saw that he was and he's seeing that and he's like well well well Wait, hold on. And again, there two things can be true. Two things can be true. He can still be a, he's a huge friend. Jason is a huge, Jaylen, excuse me. Jalen is a huge fan of Tatum's game. He is. And as a friend, I do think that they're closer than people think that they are. Having said that two things can be true. You still see, your pride is still involved and you see like, what are you all doing right now? Are you serious? This is what's going on. The NBA season is coming down to the wire and now is the perfect time to download FanDuel. America's number one sportsbook. Because new customers get a no-sweet first bet up to $1,000.

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1,800 522470, Wyoming, or visit www. www.1-800 gambler.net, West Virginia. Another thing that I need to ask you about, then you kind of brought it up was, you know, those early years with Kyrie, right? And you were there during those years. and you're smiling right now. You remember how that went.

And can you kind of give us a peek into the day-to-day while Kyrie was there, his day-to-day relationship with Jaylen and how that kind of evolved? Because from everything I heard, it wasn't great at all. What was it like when Kyrie was in Boston? I re came in like, you know, he had just, you know, he had just done Uncle Drew. He had felt like, okay, this is my team and my chance to be the leader that I'm going to be the leader to these guys that I didn't think LeBron was to me. Okay. So a group of young, young guys in the locker room, young Terry Rozier, young Tatum, young Jalen.

then you also had a guy Al Horford. You also had Marcus Morris. So it was definite personalities in that locker room. Jalen was in the locker room. His locker was next to Karees. He's eating some food. He puts the plate

in Kairi's seat before Kari got out of the shower. Karee got out of the shower, saw a plate in his seat and was like, what the what is this? And he kind of a

cost, not like screen, but he went in and Jalen like, dude, don't do that again. Like, don't leave your plate in my seat. This is like, he saw that as a sign of disrespect. And this is in the, this is in the pregame media. Like he embarrassed Jalen in front of everybody. After a preseason game, first year, and I don't mind, been the only one to see this. And, and Kyrie, and Jalen being young, you know, he put his plate in, like, Kyrie must have seen that as like, my property, my seat, my territory, my domain, I'm the leader. Don't ever do that again. And Jalen, that kind of put Jalen off of like, whoa, damn, dude, lighten up, right?

What is this? And so that started. And then then Kyrie felt like he needed air dudes out in the media. And he kept saying, making LeBron references like, now I know what LeBron's talking about. man, I know where LeBron was met a couple years ago, man, I see these youngsters and I see what he's saying. Like, they heard all that.

Like, dude, you don't want tripping every day. And we're the problem with the young dudes. You know, we don't win, we don't, we don't succeed. Without, we, we're going to make this happen. And then he got hurt. And then they went to the Eastern Conference finals without him.

And that changed everything. Logan, like, they came back like okay bro like you're you're rolling this team for the second year for that 17 18 years a little bit different now the 18 19 Jason got his stripes yeah they did it they go to the eastern conference finals without kairi and they looking at you like yo what you mean what are you talking about yeah 17 18 18 so the 18 19 year it was like okay his role kind of changed and the respect level was a little different and the whole like you're like, oh, that's Kyrie, Olympic champion, NBA champion, hit that one of the biggest shots.

Their perspective on him was different. And Kyrie's perspective was different in terms of like how he viewed Boston and how, you know, he said he had some personal things. Remember, he went and found his Native American heritage. Like a lot of things started happening personally with Kyrie. I think with the family thing, wanting to be closer to his roots. His grandfather passed away. Like there were a lot of things that were.

tugging at at Kyrie in that moment for sure, yep. So he's separating himself in terms and so by the playoffs that year he checked out. He just,

I mean, mentally he just was not there. There was one play against Milwaukee where he like called dudes off on a break to cover Janus. How do you think that turned out?

Like, how do you think, how do you think he defended Janus coming full speed on a break? Tyree did this. Like I got him and like,

I was like, Kyrie, what are you doing? like even on your best day you can't stop a full speed yonis like and so the relationship was sour um i just think i think even jason because remember they had the same agent you know duke guys had the same age i think jason might even hired his agent because because karee you know the duke connections and that type of thing obviously karees had multiple agents since then but even jason kind of not pushed off of him but was

like, you good. We're cool, but, yeah, you ain't the OG I thought you was. You ain't the guy. So I think even Jason was just sort of like, yeah, this ain't working. Well, that's interesting you say that. That's interesting you say that because I was at the, I was at Nets Celtics in January. I mean, you obviously were there. And I think one of the biggest things that I saw, I think it was Kyrie's last game in Brooklyn.

It was last game as a net. And I remember after that game, you know, Kyrie is dapping up all the Celtics players, right? Including, you know, I put it in my piece, including, including Jason and Jalen and Marcus Smart. Now, I remember talking to Marcus Smart during my time out there. And I'm just like, so how did, based on all the things that, you know, Kyrie has done, you guys are still cool with them.

And he said, no, he's a brother to us. We can't really control his decisions, but he's still a brother and within the fabric of our group. not necessarily Boston at large or the Celtics group, but like our group of team, how do you think that that relationship is healed, at least among players? And what is,

what do you think overall, like they, how do you overall think that they see Kyrie, even though he's gone to now two teams since then? Yeah. I think what happened with Jalen and Kyrie was the player association. They both served and they both started, and they started talking again.

And they started having more conversations and having probably more in common than they thought. And I think Kyrie has always been very complimentary of Jason and Jalen since leaving. He's always, and maybe that was a means of an apology. Maybe I was his means to like, you know what fellas like, I just wasn't in a good place during my years in Boston. But, you know, he's always been complimentary. And I think they've noticed that. And I think that he's always been good with guys like Marcus. I don't think he was like a total jerker.

I would say people like, well, it was all his fault. What happened? It was like it wasn't all his fault like the implosion of that team, that 1819 team. But a lot of it, he had something to do with it. And, you know, like, you know, and then there was a situation with Gordon Hayward, as you mentioned in your story. Another reason that Jalen felt slighted was that Brad kind of put him back in as a starter where Jalen was like, wait a minute, man. And, like, you know, during that year he was out, I was balling. And now Gordon all of a sudden gets a spot back, even though Gordon really since then has never been physically himself.

And there's also the insecurity of like, yo, I know you coached Gordon in college, but like this is a different time. Like you go, I'd imagine that because I'm not there like you are, but I'd imagine that he's like, oh, is Gordon the Golden Child now because you coached him in college? I mean, at least that insecurity is there. And they introduce that insecurity by doing that, right? Totally. Totally, Logan. There's always been a perception that Gordon received some favoritism. And I might even talk about him off on the player, even the Celtic fans. Believe me, like, you could bring up race when it comes to some of the Celtic fans on how they assess the players. But there was a lot of fans who were hard on Gordon. Believe me.

I mean, I used to, you know, when he was not playing well, there was plenty of white fans who were yelling things at Gordon that were like, you know, you suck, you bum, all that. There was plenty of fans who were not happy with Gordon Hayward in turns or just that it didn't work out. Right. So, you know, to say that because to me, there's this perception. I don't want people to think the only black players here from fans. There's plenty of players, whatever. If you don't play well in Boston, they're going to get after you. But anyway, like he had felt that insecurity because of that.

That was just one of those things, right? things that he kind of felt like second best again, you know, second fiddle. And that probably adds to some of his feelings. Then I also thinking more recently this year where the association with Kanye West, where he talked to me about that and the fact that he didn't immediately like kind of disassociate him. Yeah, because your article comes out. I just want to make sure that we have the timing out. And I just want to say full transparency.

And when I wrote my thing, Gary Washburn has been the person that has been on this beat and has gotten Jalen at every step of the road. But one of those instances is when Kanye said some anti-Semitic things on Twitter and also in various interviews, you know, you sat down with Jalen and was like, well, what is your association with Donda Sports now? And for the moment, he said he was going to stay. and the next day he reversed course after another outburst from Kanye. Where was it? Where did you, can you walk me through how that kind of came about, how you approached Jalen where he was during that time? And what position was he coming from when you were interviewing him after that transpired?

Definitely. Well, it was in Chicago and Kanye had made these controversial statements over the last few days. And, you know, Jalen has signed for a, like, marketing deal, but also to help the school. Remember, there was a Donda school that Jalen definitely wanted to have part in, right? You know, I think kind of LeBron James might set the course for like, hey, y'all can not only contribute to the school you went to, you can start a school or you can help kids get an education and prepare them for the future kids of color. kids who are disenfranchised or for underrepresented community. So he was definitely more participant in the school than like, you know, and, you know, you were there in San Francisco when Ye came to a game.

And he was, you know, I think it was the regular season game in March of 2022. Or Yee was court side and they took pictures. But there was an association of friendship there. But I talk to Jalen and I said, Jaylen, like, you're going to probably need to talk about this because the demand for you to figure, to either say like, we're good or we're not good. And so he told me that he didn't want to necessarily, he wanted to talk, have some conversations, do some thinking. And also, he was worried about the school. He didn't want these kids to be left out in the street without an education. So he was like, I'm not going to just walk away from this.

And then, so that's what he told me. There was some vitriol that he received because he didn't automatically disassociated itself or break ties. And then the next day him and Aaron Donald from the Rams both kind of, I think their folks collaborated and they both reached a statement of disassociate themselves with it. But Jalen was more concerned about the school. And the kids and the people on the Donda Academy basketball team. And he thought he could, he thought he could separate the two.

when we both know that that's not realistic. And he thought that he could separate what he was going to do with the school from this guy who was one of the most famous people on earth and has influence beyond anyone can imagine. And I think that he thought that he could separate that from both of them. And that was never going to happen. No, no. And I think he had to, and I think he need to have that explained and understood.

And also, you know, Jalen's a dude that's a real, he needs to beat things explain. And I'm talking more like, he needs to say he doesn't want to hear what you heard. He wants to hear it himself, right? He wants to hear what he probably wanted to read up on what Kanye was talking about, what he was referring to. Is this dude just making crazy statements? Is there some basis behind these statements? Is there some facts behind these statements? Why is he saying this?

And why is he saying this now? And I think that was what he wanted. And he's one of them dudes. He doesn't want to be. that person. And that's one thing of him and Kyrie share in common. Kyrie, you can't tell, well, I heard, would you hear from who, where, when? Like, you've got to come with some more from facts with Kyrie. You can't just say, that's what people say. That's what I heard. The streets say. No, no, no, no, no. Who's the streets?

I remember hearing anecdotes just from Jalen in college and where he would, you know, coaches would would say like a game plan or something and like say like there's like a um a horns action going into a screen and he will he would stop practice and say well why do we do this on this action and why why are we scouting against this and it would stop practice but then he would get a better understanding of the play which ultimately I know on the surface I know on the surface it's like yo why are you holding up practice what are you doing but he's a guy that's like yeah let me figure this out it may take a longer time to do it but that would all always be. And I think that that's been something throughout his career that has kind of been

misconstrued. I think like, and it is also made people irritated. And I'm talking about people in college, also people within the Celtics organization that are irritated because he consistently does that. He consistently will say, well, he will, he will question everything. That's just something that he does. And I think that that is something that, that him and Kyrie share in common is that they question every single thing. And probably a reason why they bonded because they question everything. Everything is a question mark. That's a thing.

So when you're telling him Kanye make these statements that he might not have heard it or heard the context or saw the interview, he's going to be like, wait, let me see the interview. Let me send me some clips. Send me a story. Send me some information that I can better educate myself on it before I make this like decision to publicly denounce this dude when I'm hearing only what you telling me. for what such and such in the streets told me or was somebody texted. So I think that's why he took a day, like, to kind of denounce and disassociate himself. I don't know if he really denounced, but just disassociate himself with Kanye. Because he never really answers the question when you ask him about Kanye Weston.

Like, I tried. I know the Times tried. Like, he'll say, I don't want to answer about my relationship with him now. And I don't know. So I don't know for certain if he's talked to Kanye since. or anything like that, but that's always a point of thing for people. They always say, why don't you talk about him? Why won't you do that?

And I think, and this is just based on what I, and I know you've talked to some of the same people, but I think the reason why he doesn't speak on Kanye is I think there's a fear factor in that he doesn't want Kanye coming back at him. Kanye is a guy that will screenshot everything that will use his platform to disrespect or, you know, build up or disrespect, mostly people, and I don't think he wants to get involved in that. That is how I read it,

the reason why he won't talk about Kanye publicly anymore. I also think that what I kind of referred to him in this interview when I talked to him in Chicago that day was it's like a family member who just kind of goes off the cliff and says something crazy. You still love them or you still got love for him, but one of your close friends that just says something totally inappropriate. You take a step back. You just like, okay, man, like, either you figure out your issues or why you said that or why you're saying these things. And then I'll come in a few weeks or whatever. I think that was, I think kind of that's how I kind of asked them because I said,

we all have people that we loved or had love for friendships who just said something. And you were like, what? And don't get a twisted. What Kanye said was and is wild and reprehensible, you know, but terrible. Yeah. Terrible things. So hideous. So I don't think anyone's endorsing anything he says.

I think Jalen was sort of like, okay, I'm not going to just, can I, will I end the friendship over this or will I figure out that you maybe need some help and maybe you need some counseling and maybe I can be there for you to talk to to figure out why the hell are you saying these things. I think that was more his approach than like, F you, man. Now. But I think that's my overall thing with Jalen. I think that this is something that like, I think during my time with him, and it was just a great, it was a great interview.

Like he is if somebody that's really thoughtful, that is somebody that says what he means. But I feel like, and I'm sure you feel like that as an OG is just like, you're 26, you don't have to have it all the way figure it out right now. And I think that that's something that he is all, with his activism, with how he goes about everything. He is. And a lot of that also is just how, you know, people, you know, build things up and build him up. But I feel like that there's some ways that he can't, he can learn a lot more, right? There are things where he could just say, you know, I'm 26, I don't know it all. And that's okay.

But I think that, you know, he has been thought of as his Renaissance man, some his, some on him because he puts in the work and some on other people who just who typecast him. And he said this in the story when I talked to him. It's like, you know, people have built me up as his voice. I don't know if it's the best thing, but I'm going to keep talking. and you could kind of tell that he's kind of figuring it out. How was, do you ever just when you're covering him just be like,

yo man, you're very smart, but you're also 26, man. It's okay, you got the rest of your life to figure this out. And it's okay to make mistakes. And I feel like he is so scared of making mistakes publicly. Yeah, I think the thing,

okay, the thing that we've seen in the league, especially recently in some of the dudes, you know, like John Morant, like, okay, what makes, some of these dudes happy. And you've been around the league long enough, Logan, to know. The life sometimes makes these guys happy. The women sometimes makes these guys happy.

Video games sometimes makes these guys happy. The like drinking, hanging out, smoking weed, whatever makes these guys happy. In addition to the game, with Jalen, we don't know what makes him happy. Is it winning? Like, I think the hoop makes him happy. I think he told me, like, this is my sanctuary. I loved a ball. Like, I asked him about, like, being a person who, you know, like a thinker, a activist, you know,

because it's hard to be that guy, that activist and also act like you're just all about playing a game. When you feel like, as we referred to earlier, you're a pawn in this game. So there's a certain amount of you, there's a certain amount of, you, there's a certain amount like you can smile and then big. There's always a confliction. There is always a compliction when he, when you're trying to be what he is trying to be. And then Jalen's not a dude who like, you know,

like Jason's a guy that loves his fatherhood, you know, loves his fam, dozens of commercials. I mean, Jason's on every, like I asked him other day, Jason,

you really drink Corona? Like you was on a Corona commercial. Like, oh, well, you know, he was just laughing. Like,

it's that movie. It's an old movie called Celtic Pride where these Celtic fans kidnap. So Damon Wayans plays like his role is like Carl Malone, not off the court, but like he's the superstar for the Utah Jazz. And they're playing the jazz in the finals. It's a 90s movie. All right.

So before your time. So these maniacal Celtic fans, one of them Dan Aykroyd, I forgot who the other one is, kidnap this Carl Malone figure, this played by Damon Wayans, and they have them in their house, and then they're talking about you're just this, you're the model of like, we hate, you know, you're just all about yourself, you're all about the marketing, you're all about the glitz and the glamour.

And they said, okay, we'll let you go if we could watch TV for 10 minutes and not see one of your commercials. watch it literally watching TV for 10 minutes and then like at the ninth minute what it like what a like frosted flakes commercial and there he is like you know and they're like that's jason that's jason that's jason right now yeah it's a tape over your mouth so jason is jason you can see the joy in jason like you know he loves the ball he loves his family with jaylin jaylin jailon don't smile a lot you know and i'm not saying he don't smile but it's hard to do tell sometimes when he's happy. What makes him happy? I think his family makes him happy. His mom and his brother. I think traveling the world makes him happy.

I think learning makes him happy. I think talk education, fostering better education for young people, for young black people, for young people from underrepresented communities makes him happy. But it's hard to tell more. And most dudes, as we see with Jai and other these guys, they make it clear what makes them happy, whether it's the life, whether it's just hoop, whether it's video games, whether it's just sneakers, right? Yeah.

Like they just, they get a kick out of the life, which is fine. That's good. That's why you, you know, that's what Bill Parsons. That's why you lift all them weights. That's why you play all them AAU games and practice for 20 hours and sacrifice the prom and all that, because this is what you want. But Jaylen, though, it's hard to tell what he, what actually makes him happen. happy. Why he smiled, what makes him smile? Like, man, what makes you smile? Or do you ever relax? Do you ever not think

about the community? Do you ever not think about the, like, that's what I think that people are still wondering. And I think he likes that when people don't know what makes him happy. He doesn't want to be easily figured out. And I think that that's fine. Yeah, for sure. I think the other thing that that is kind of, you know, percolating is just his relationship with M.A. Udoca, right? And just, and I don't, I think that, you know, he spoke to me about it and it got some pub, just how he feels about M.A. But, like, I feel like the team is still kind of conflicted with M.A.'s Right. And I think it masked the fact that, you know, I think winning master fact that they're still kind of reconciling what happened in the preseason and just his dismissal. How do you think that,

you know, Jalen, by extension, the rest of the Celtics feel about his departure at this point in time? I think they're still confused by, but I think they understand they've moved on. I think a lot of these guys are flexible. You know, they have to, they understand that this is a business,

this is a life, that, you know, EMA did some things that wasn't good, wasn't cool, wasn't, you know, that disallowed him from, from the job, from keeping his job, that basically got him suspended and now kind of removed to where now he can coach somewhere else. But I don't think they quite understood exactly what he did.

And the team, I don't think, did a great job of helping them understand. Now, there's also details that probably couldn't be released. Legally. So I don't think they could sit down to all 15, 18 guys. and be like, okay, let's write it down. This is what he did. So you guys can understand. Like, I don't think that that's going to happen.

And I totally understand it. I also think that there are, there's just things that the players know happens in this league. You've been around it. We've been around it. You know, employees date employees. Players date. Like there's things that happen in organizations, sports organizations and big business

organizations. This happens. I don't think the Celtics are any separate, pretty different from a lot of organizations. And so I think the players are like, yeah, we know what's going on, but that's fireable, or that's suspenseful. So I think that was, you know, and the fact that Jalen told me it all started, he hadn't talked to him. And I think that's interesting.

I think that's interesting. And so then I think he got some flack from that from fans who thought, oh, you turned on my man. Like, you know, I don't know why they haven't talked. I don't know what their relationship is in turn to like a, there's other players who have had constant conversations and communication with him. But with Jayla, I wasn't surprised because that's just who he is. He probably, hey, man, I need to focus on man in front of me,

Joe Missoula and the coaching. I need to focus on my task at hand. We'll talk when this all cleared up. Maybe that's how he fits. But I mean, publicly, you still said that he wants M.A. to get another job. You know, time and time again, and he's not the only one. Marcus M.S. Marta said that, a lot of other people on the team, hopefully that hope that that happens, that M.A. does get another job.

Now, as you wrap this up, the $290 million question. Mr. Washburn, where we're talking about this right now. We all know the all-MBA conversation. He makes an all-MBA. Jalen gets Supermax offered to him, and I'd assume that he will sign that if that is the case. I assume, right?

No one tones down Supermax, but I think that this also, this timing also is interesting because I think it's a bigger issue than just the extension and the comments he made to be. And I think there's a bigger issue at hand is that, and we've talked about this throughout this podcast, which is more than money, more than anything,

I think Jalen just wants respect from that, from the Celtics organization and consistent respect from them. I don't, at this very moment, I don't see him just saying, I want to trade, and I want to go to this team and this team. I think he said, I don't know, because he doesn't feel fully respected by the organization. and there's a track record to prove why he's not feeling that way.

Right. So from a Celtics point of view, how do they heal right now? Because they're going to give him the extension. They're going to try to give him extension no matter what, right? They're going to do that. And if it's a Supermax, I think that Jalen's going to sign it. And I'm sure you think the same thing. But there's a bigger healing that needs to happen. How does that happen for the Celtics and Jalen and does it happen at all?

Oh, I do think it happens. And the process probably starts now. Like, I'm sure that there's some management and coaching staff that were kind of unaware of what was going on or his feelings are now like, okay, okay. Maybe we do need to have more conversations with him, flesh out some of his feelings, figure out what's going on, maybe better explain what happened in the past. And I think that they'll do that. You know, I don't think he's unhappy in Boston. I don't think, oh, man, get me out of here. And the whole thing is this, Bogan, as you know,

most NBA players, if they like, you know, it's like, Jason is St. Louis through and through, right? Jason is, if there was a team in St. Louis, I'm sure Jason would love to go home and play there. It's not like Jalen be like, get me, I want to play for the Hawks. Like, it's not like Jalen is talking about, get me to L.A. I want to, I want the sunshine. I want the beaches.

It's not like, get me to New York. That's like, like, where are we talking about? Like, there is no team that I look at and be like, yeah, that's the city for him. Like, I think that every place, every place is a city for him and no place is a city for him. He'll make it work, but I think he'll travel to where he wants to go. I think he'll bring his family to where he is, like he has a boss of where his mom is here and his brother's here. So I don't think that there's like this team that's like prepping. Like, I remember years ago, and then the backfiring when the wizards were like saving all their coin to get Katie in 16 thinking DMV kid and he'd ready to come home and Katie didn't even meet with Washington.

Like it was sad. Katie was like, no, man, I'll just come home with the offseason. I'll just come to PG. I'll go to PG mall in August, September, man. I'm not trying to do. I'm not trying to play for the Wizards. And so I don't know if there's this like organization that's built for him. I think he just wants to be happy and it can be anywhere.

And I think it could certainly be Boston, especially with $290 million on a table. I think winning will cure all. I think if they win a championship. And I think his legacy is important. He sees Garnett come back, Pierce come back, Ray Allen come. And the numbers raised and the love that they get. And when they just show up to a game, they get a stand in ovation. And like, there's nothing like being revered in Boston.

It's such a great sport. And there's just isn't, it's like, hey, man, during, I was, it felt when I was there for a week. And it felt like just a very family old school type vibe that you see. Like, there were like, I haven't seen an arena because I've been chase all the time, right? I haven't seen an arena where you, in a minute, where you have season ticket holders that have been there for 70 years, right? Like it seems like one of those type of environments, right? It's like the one, you could tell, like, it's one, they know it. It's one of the last ones left.

It's one of those types of, types of mecas in Boston. It's one of those types of places, yeah. Totally. So I think the current players, they look at how those guys when they come back are treated. Now, they don't have to live in Boston when their career is over. They can move to wherever they want to or whatever. But when Garnett comes or Pierce comes, they show them on a videotron. Even Big Perk, when Big Perk comes to, goes to the garden, he's like a God.

Yeah. He played a solid career. He played eight years. I mean, but, you know, won a championship. but he is revered like Scalibri. Like there's guys when they come back here, even if you were a member of the team. Cedric Maxwell is still getting love in Boston every time.

Major love. When the Red Sox won to 04 series, Dave Roberts, the manager of the Dodgers now, stole a key base in the comeback against the Yankees. People still talk about that. That was 18, 19 years ago. He came back with the Dodgers and got a standing O at Fenway because he stole a base.

He stole the base, like, that got in a scoring position, and he scored on a base hit, like during that major 3-0 comeback for the Yates, like, this is a town, and I'm not from here, so don't know, Gary, ripping boss on. Gary, Gary, from South Central. Gary from South Central. He said, yeah, yeah.

I did not know how it was going to be when I got here, and I see how people become, especially over the last decades, when the organization has become more diverse, and there's been more openness, in terms not only organization, but the city and also kind of garnett kind of broke the barrier of

like not even free ages. He was traded, but like major players want to come here and want to play that weren't drafted. And also I think that like for Jalen's sake, and I think this is the argument of him staying. And I do think at least he's going to sign an extension

if it's $2.90. I think he's just going to do that. But more than that, on a bigger thing, he wants a legacy like Bill Russell. He do. I don't know if he's going to get there, but like, that's where, that's what he wants. And he saw that Bill Russell has done that in Boston. That's something that he always looks towards. And I think that it's the perfect, it's the perfect place that he wants to be in at this point. I don't think at this point he's, he's thinking about leaving. It's more of, can y'all just respect me,

please? Like, come on. I think that's the biggest thing. And so we'll see what happens. I totally think. I mean, if I look at like, they're an All-Star weekend at the, at the, at the Legends brunch, Jaylon, they did a tribute to Bill Russell. Jalen was on stage with Dr. Jay and Karim al-Dibar. I mean, he's 26. And there's Jalen giving his, like, tribute with not only OGs, but legends on the stage with him. Like, he's got to look at that and be like, damn.

Like, and I know he won't show that. He will be, you know, I just had to give respect to Mr. Russell, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he had to be like, damn, I mean. There's only a couple franchises you can really do that with. it's not even close. Like, there's grandfather's age. And it's just like, there he is on the stage celebrating Bill Russell with Karene and Dr. Jay, like Dr. Jay.

Like, I'll say, quick story. So I was at the Hall of Fame with my wife. Okay, we went to the Hall of Fame dinner. Dr. Jay had just gotten a statue put up in Amherst. And Hallframe was in Mohican. son. So he drove, he came late. So he comes, we're in the back table, he comes, somebody sitting here, no. And so my wife does not know who he is. I have to text her under the

table. Like, that's freaking Julius Irving. Julius sits at what table. I mean, Logan, it's doing what, 73 now? Yeah. Like, there was, like, there was like fans, droves, just like, you, it was like, it was by Michael Jackson. It was like, it was like big. It was, it was, it was just this like still around him. People want his autograph, taking pictures. And he was just chilling. Like, he's the coolest man in the room at all times. I saw him. Yeah. Yeah. My wife was like, well, Mr. Irving, you're probably,

like, these people are waiting for you because he was just like, well, what should I do? And she's like, well, you're going to have to start taking some pictures or sign some autographs. If not to go, it's going to go stay here or tell him that you're not going to do what. He goes, okay so he just starts taking pictures and signs autographs or whatever and so like that was last year and I'm like that's like legendary stuff like that's stuff that like will last like be Russell and Kareem and there's Jaylon and there's Jaylon on stage with these two gentlemen masters legends of the game that's got to resonate and I think it does but I think there's also that seriousness to be like you know I can't act

too excited. I got to act like I've been here before. And maybe in the previous life or maybe in his dreams he has. But I just think he wants to smell the roses. But he's just so locked in and focused. And there's

so many other things he wants to do. Fascinating guy. Before we get you out of here, it is Thursday. And it is a segment that we do every Thursday called Ruin of the Week, where we point out a person, entity, and our organization that won the week. And I'll go first and then we'll see, we'll see where you go.

I'm going to go with the Goldest Day Warriors, man. Last night, one of the big wins that I've seen from them and that they showed a little heart last night. I know that there was the call against Dallas and there's a protest, but nah, nah, that was a huge win from the Goldest Day Warriors. And it showed some life. And so I was really impressed with what I saw from them last night. Who's your real one of the week?

I'm going to go for the Fairley Dickinson coach. Tobin Anderson, okay, they beat. Okay, so they weren't even supposed to go to tournament because Merrimack and their conference won the tournament, but they're not eligible because they transferred division too. So they kind of got snuck into the tournament, then they beat Purdue, then he gets all, I love these kids, these kids are amazing.

I love my school. Then three days later, signed to deal with a coach that I own to take, Rick Petito could be on that list too, because Rick, Rick back in the, Rick back in the game, we all thought Rick was dead, right? We all thought Rick was gone. He was always gone. For sure. 70 years old, back in the game, back in the major college game.

So I'm going to say to FDU coach because he went, he flipped 16th C to a five-year deal in like five days, man. You can't, like, you can't beat that. Yeah, there you go, man. Gary Washburn, man. Thanks so much for coming on, man. This was really, really. a pleasure, man. Oh, always, man. Always. You know you're my guy, man. I feel the superpowers

from being a real one. Hopefully it will last longer than like the next 15, 20 minutes. You're a real one at all times, man. And that has been another edition of real ones. This has been our Thursday edition. You can catch us every Monday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcast. Roger will be back on Monday. Until then, we'll talk soon. Talk to y'all soon, man. Hala, tap in, all the things. Bye.