The Ringer NBA Show - Giannis Antetokounmpo Leads the Milwaukee Bucks to the 2020-21 NBA Championship | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

Justin, Rob, and Wos come together live on Greenroom after the Milwaukee Bucks take the 2021 NBA championship in six games against the Suns to talk about how the Bucks pulled off the win (0:30), what this gut-punching loss means for Chris Paul’s legacy (21:08), and whether this championship will end the small vs. big market debates (35:27). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On R2C2, C-C-2, C-Sabathia and Ryan Rucco guide listeners through everything going on in the MLB, NBA, and NFL. They also talk to friends, athletes, and celebrities about the world of sports, and much more. Check out R2C2 with C-C-2 with C-C-Sabathia and Ryan Rucco on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier. Joining me, Rob Mahoney, Big Wise, and gentlemen, the Milwaukee Bucks are your 2020, 2021 NBA champions. Wise, can you believe it? Yeah, I can.

I picked them to do exactly this thing before the series started. As I said, I said Yonis not only was going to play, but he was going to get better and stronger as the series went on. I proved to be a genius and prophetic, Justin. Where's my reins? Where's my money? I don't know. I deserve something for being this damn right.

They're here. You're not the only prophetic one because, bucks in six, the prophecy has been fulfilled. Brandon Jennings and attendance. What a beautiful day. Love you. It's true. It's true. So let's start here.

So I would say that I am among the most cynical people, not only online, but maybe in existence. Like very little shakes me, very little, like gets me emotional or tied up in the moment, just many, many years of sitting on my hands as a just unbiased, reporter. I have to say, like, Linsanity got me. Ray Allen shot in the Miami finals got me. This performance from Janice and Teddekumpo, my God, like, I was in awe of this entire thing.

And I have to say, like, I was getting pretty emotional when he was hugging his family and just sitting there crying, man. That was, what a moment. This feels like a very important moment that you could identify in real time, right? Right. 100%. And that's, not to take away from the contributions of Chris Middleton and Drew Holiday in spots and everybody on the Bucks who contributed to this championship, P.J. Tucker on defense, but they've won this championship in six games because Janice was great. He was all time in the history of the

sport. Great. That's why the Milwaukee Bucks are now your NBA champion. And I have to say, It's not that I never, that I ever disliked Janice. I always liked Janice. But this playoff run, I've come to admire the guy. All of the stuff that we say about grit, perseverance, determination, all these cliches that we always throw out in sports actually applied to Janice to Tocompo throughout the postseason this year. I think there were Buc's performances early on in the playoffs that we were all just scratching

our head, shaking our head. And round by round, game by round. by game. Janus did nothing but get better, get smarter, get more determined, and just be great. Like, this guy is, like, this performance on a level. I'm not going to say this is better than Jordan in 93 against the Sons or better than LeBron in 2012 or better than Shaq in 2000. I'm not going to say it's better, but it's at the level of those guys. It's special. It's special. Exactly. And what makes it special and what makes those kinds of moments emotional is that Yon it's just as a high, like as high a give a shit factor as anyone you will find in the sport.

And so to see that rewarded and to see his was laid out him taking steps, being a sharper player incrementally year after year and series after series that we get to trace this journey with him and we get to see him in this kind of moment payoff in this, on this biggest stage, that's an incredible thing. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking about as he was taking over there late in that game. the wrap on both him and the bucks is that the reason why they're so good in the regular season is because they give a shit, right? And that ultimately became something that people used against them in the postseason

because other teams care as much then and thus they were matched by that. Obviously, they were foiled by some more technical strategic things, but it ultimately became the thing to define the bucks, both for good and for bad. And this, it just felt like Janus won this game by giving a shit more than, than anyone else there. And it's just like, it's funny, like back in the days, I remember editing out of pieces, like how the old cliche of just trying an effort is a skill, right? It just seemed like such a banal, like, bullshit thing to say. Like, for Janus, I think it is. And I think it maybe won and swung the series for the box. Just think about how many times he tried to chase

people down for blocks in this game. And he got a couple goal tens in the process. He ended up with five blocks on the game, but he was just going after everything. all the time. And the bucks figured out on offense when and how they could look for him to maximize his touches to get him free dunks, get him looks inside.

But I mean, this is just an incredible closeout performance from one of the great players in the game and a guy who hasn't even reached his final form as a player yet and he's putting up 50 in a game like this. Rob, he scored half their points. That's absurd.

It's insane. So 50 points, 14 rebounds, two assists five goddamn blocks. and probably the biggest number that jumps off to me, not the 50 points, it's actually 17 for 19 from the free throw line. This guy not only grew a new ACL in between the Eastern Conference finals and the NBA finals, but he learned how to be just like a proficient free throw shooter,

or excuse me, free throw shooter. And honestly, it swung things. You could see like everything warping as a result of them not being able, them being the sons, not being able to put Janus on the free throw line and get away with it. How much of it do you think was the 65,000 people outside the arena holding up their hands to live? lend their energy to Janus in those moments.

That wasn't energy, my friend. That was something else. That's legal in Milwaukee? No, but seriously. I think the free throws, again, it just speaks to the guy's mentality. He struggled early in the playoffs, throughout the playoffs.

He had embarrassing free throw moments. Like, embarrassing, like airballs, complete bricks just looked, just looked bad up there at times. But again, to Janice's credit, it never affected his game in the sense that he stayed in attack mode, he stayed understanding

that his best stuff came in transition. He attacked the trees, guys like Clint Capella, guys like DeAndre Aiton. He just kept going at them no matter what. And he was rewarded by that, with improving free throw shooting as the series progressed, specifically at home where he was just exponentially better at the free throw line.

And I do think it's important what he was doing on a defensive end too because they shut Phoenix down defensively. I can remember in the first two games of the series where we were talking about Phoenix's three-level scoring was making them tough to beat, right? Tough to guard. And Janus, whether it be guarding Paul and Booker out on switches, straight up just swatting, ate and shit.

One-on-one, like, yo, just like get the hell out of here. Chase down blocks, everything. He had everything working on defense. He looked like a defensive player of the year type of guy. I mean, you know, you can't, you just can't discount any of the things that he did tonight. He was unreal. I've been pretty resistant of the shack comparison that's been floating around with

Yannis just because they don't attack in the same way. You know, it's like evaluating. players by the end point of their shot versus the process of their shot. Like Janus does not play like Shaq. Doesn't have a lot in common with Shaq honestly, except they both score a lot around the rim. Except I think at this point, we can safely say

no one knows what to do with this guy when he plays like this. And you can see that just by how much they have to foul him, by how much they have to hack and try weird things just to take away anything that he can do. Even Aiden just looked like he was totally in his head

at this point in terms of what he needed to do where he needed to be. We saw him bite on a Janus, pump fake on a three in the first half. Yeah, that was wild. I can't find clearer evidence that a guy is just completely out of his mind in terms of what am I supposed to do? Like, what am I supposed to take away from this person? How defenders look when Shaq was in the post is how defenders look when Janus has a head of steam going in transition. That's what it is. So we have a question from Alex

Furier, which sounds like my alter ego, my variant. How much does this finals performance rise Janice's stock among the superstar tier of players as he ascended to the level of multiple times superstar champions like LeBron, Katie, Kwai, Steph. And I know like in the aftermath of winning a title, we often get recency bias and want to put that player who won it and led their team to the title to the top of the stack. So they're now the best player in the league, right? But I have to say, I saw this stack going into the game, which is very, very convincing to me that Janus has a good case for this. If Janus had won the end of the finals MVP, which she did unanimously, by the way.

He'll join Michael Jordan as the only players in NBA history to win MVP, defensive player of the year, finals MVP, an all-star game MVP in their career. Wow. That's pretty, him and Mike. That's pretty freaking neat. And, you know, I think the thing about superstars and how we sort of measure them and grade them, I think all we ever want to see guys do is perform the way that we know they're capable of performing in the most difficult circumstances possible, which happens to be

the postseason, round by round, team by team, the challenges get bigger and bigger and harder and harder and harder. And that's the point of winning a championship is that you prove that every single challenge gets met and your team is victorious because of your greatness. There's no other way to state it. Like they beat the Hawks. Well, you know, Janus and up getting hurt at the end of that series, but he was great in that series, right? He was the one that put them a position to do that. Brooklyn, the same thing. He struggled very early on in that series, but he got better and he was great.

And against Phoenix, he comes back from, again, like, when I'm watching this championship DVD, like that, you know, that, that moment when Janus's knee bends backwards, and it's like, they're going to change the music, and it's going to sound like everything. is going to shit. And then they're going to show Yon is coming back, dunking on people's head, swatting shots, killing people in transition. It's amazing.

But that's what I say all of that to say. That's what becoming, not that he wasn't a superstar already, but people have to see you pass these tests. We got to see you ace these calculus-level math equations, man. And he did that thing this postseason. And I'm happy for him. him. Yeah, he was a superstar already, but now he's a superstar with the formula.

He gets the ring, he gets the trophy, and we get this empirical proof of what a championship around Janus looks like, and it can look like no one else on his team scoring more than 17 points in a close-out game, and he's just so good that he can carry over the finish line. I mean, really for the Bucks in this game,

it was Janus being absolutely dominant, and the Buc's defense taking the Sons completely out of their identity. And that's a repicable formula. Like, imagine if they come back next season with, I don't know, a better player in Pat Conantin's spot. I've seen somebody snarkily say in the chat, what about the drop coverage? Yeah, what about it? They switched the ton in this damn game.

They mucked it up. Phoenix looked utterly lost to start this game. They dropped 16 points in the first quarter. That was the Bucks defense basically killing them. Chris Paul was extremely passive to start the game, but the Bucks were switching everything. and they were like, go ahead, beat me off the dribble. And nobody seemed to want to do it until campaign came in in the second quarter. It completely changed everything.

So as this game was going along, as it seemed like the bucks were going to have this one, I could hear in my head just the dashboard confessional playing. There it goes. And every time they showed Bud, I was like, vindicated. Rob, does it feel like a vindication, these last four games, games is turn around in the series for one Mike Booden holdser, the meme of all MBA memes finally turning it around and winning a title. Hands down.

Is that too much? Is that too much to go even harder on the dashboard confessional references? It's good. No, I mean, I think Bud coached a great series overall. And honestly, in a lot of these series where initially the Bucks would come out with some warts with some weird things in their coverage, they would iron them out, they would fine tune, they would tighten the screws. And that's what we saw, you know, especially in this series, where even just something as simple as who drew Holiday is guarding and how.

And it moved throughout the series. It rotated from, you know, guarding book more to guarding CP more to ultimately this game, guarding book again a lot. But they had they had such clamps on Chris Paul already at that point. They already had a hand on how to guard him with other guys. They just had a better sense of, you know, their communication and when to switch and how to switch and who's doing what. and when Drew needs to fight through anyway and not switch, just such a great feel from the Bucks as this series went on in terms of what exactly they needed to do to take the Sons out of their stuff.

And especially having watched Phoenix get to this point and the way they were able to overwhelm and outwork and out-solve everyone they came up against, it was jarring to see them just not have answers, to see possessions that would end up with Jay Crowder and McHale Bridges passing the ball back and forth to each other because there was nowhere else to go. Yeah, it was, man, so much hot potato happening.

And not to say that people were scared. It's just like, that's not the son's MO, this ISO ball, this sort of just attack every single switch on the one-on-one dribble penetration stuff. And that's the point of defense, right? It's to get them out of the stuff that they want to do. They want you to play conventional pick and roll. They want Chris Paul to get. completely open mid-range jump shots against drop coverages. They want, that's what the sons generally want from their offensive

because they were willing to switch stuff in spots that were advantageous for them or just being like, nope, Drew, you're going to stay on that guy, just recover and stay on him. They played a smart matchup-dependent defense. That's what it takes to win championships in this league. We set it all series on. This idea that you come with a cookie cutter screen, that the best players, excuse me, scheme,

that the best players in the world aren't going to figure out how to attack, that's not reality. These guys are in the finals for a reason because they're dynamic, because they can problem solve on the fly. And so you can't just throw out the exact same coverages all series long.

You have to switch it up. You have to add an element of surprise. And they did that. And Phoenix didn't respond very well to it in the first quarter, although they did come storming back in the second. But even in that second, think about how much they had to do just to get those looks, right? Like they made a big thing on the broadcast of the fact that Chris Paul, just to get any look, had to basically run a one-four pick-and-roll to then set up a one-five pick-and-roll

to then hopefully get an open mid-range shot over, you know, or I say open over the top of Brooke Lopez, basically is what he was aiming for. That's a lot of shot clock to eat in the hope of maybe getting a good shot. and the Milwaukee was able to push Phoenix to that kind of place. That's why they're the champions. Yeah, well, Rob, you've looked at this series just from a strategic point of view, like pretty closely throughout the six games that we've had. Is there one thing that you could pinpoint is, like,

what turned it other than Janus just being incredible? Is it just like shutting off Chris Paul or making things more difficult for him? And thus just him getting to his other satellite players, almost like when you cut off the big alien spaceship in ID4, like it cuts off the other ones? Was that the same tactic here? Definitely like a brain alien, a mother queen somewhere. The Chris Paul thing hurt them a lot.

And really it was because when you take away Chris Paul and you mitigate his ability to set up other guys, Devin Booker can be a good playmaker, but he's not that kind of playmaker. He's not a guy who's going to constantly spray out to the perimeter, keeping your entire offense intact. And so once they took away Chris Paul, as Woz mentioned, they are not that kind of ISO-heavy team.

And so they forced them to be something they weren't. They forced them into increasingly uncomfortable positions. And they just kept building the pressure around Booker, who could deliver with some huge scoring performances and damn nearly won a couple of these games on his own. But when you don't have that support from corner shooters because you're not getting the passes out there, because a guy like Aiton is being walled up at the rim

by Janus and Brooke Lopez and taken away in that regard, it's just a lot for one premier score to handle. And they really needed Chris to be at a high level, in all of these games. I'm not just saying it's all his fault, but it was an incredible testament to the defense the Bucks did to take that away, to take away that really dynamic element of their offense.

So the one thing I didn't think I would be saying at the end of the series is that the Bucks were the deeper team. And now they went seven deep, basically, and like maybe seven and a half, if you want to throw in Jeff Teague. But Bobby Borders was out playing a lot of those bench players on the Suns, like Cam Johnson, one for five in this game, campaign would come in and give them a little bit of a boost here and there in this game in particular,

but there just wasn't anything else. So you're really riding on the starting lineup. And it just seemed like a combination of Paul falling off versus maybe some of the youth starting to show for some of these young players. Aiton had probably his worst game of the playoffs tonight, maybe not statistically, but certainly just from an optics POV. And I don't know. It's weird to say, but like there's some real James Posey stuff going on here with one Bobby Portis.

Like, he, forgive the pun, opened my eyes to what he could do. In the first quarter, I think he made two, three-pointers, made another jump shot. Those were incredible pressure relief vows, right? Like, it's like, all right, there's a guy you have to guard tonight, y'all. Which means everything for the Bucks offensive in half court, which, let's face it, they weren't exactly lighting the world on fire in half court this series, right? So Bobby Portis making those early shots was incredible. And yo, I was watching the first, you know, the first half of this game

where nobody could score. And clearly everybody was feeling the impact of the moment. And it dawned on me. I was like, this is why we love this shit. Stakes. Like, this shit matters. And everybody on the court understands it. And so they're playing horribly.

It was like four, four with like six minutes left in the damn game. It was, it was crazy. But I think Aitin, you saw that, man. There were certain times where in the fourth quarter he caught the ball. Yonis hadn't even gotten to him yet. He hesitated because he thought Yonis was going to be there. And then he takes a difficult shot and he misses it right underneath the cup, right? And that's what happens in these big games.

Like, not everybody's going to play insanely well. Like some people might not rise to the moment. And I think we saw a lot of that, specifically to start. start the game. It was just ugly. But then it makes every one of those Bobby Portis jumpers that much bigger. Every one of those like random 50-50 balls at a role player or even

every one of those campaign jumpers that much more important. I think the Portis thing in particular, what made him so important is he let the bucks continue to be big, to continue to express their biggest advantage in this series, which was their size, to the point that Frank Kimeski

got 11 minutes in this game. He did. And, Ellie, I mean, a lot of that is Dario Sarge being out of it. They really missed him and his ability to plug that spot. But that's how desperate the suns were for any kind of size was 11 minutes out of Frank Kaminsky. Yeah, that's how you know you're searching for something. Those 11 minutes from Frank Kaminsky.

So we're talking about stakes. So obviously we need to talk about the stakes for the star player on the other side of this verdict or of this victory. So Chris Paul, it was shaping up to be his big moment to finally rid himself of not making the finals and then to potentially win his first finals ever. Now it's starting to look like the biggest gut punch of his career that he was just there. And then maybe he had his injury or whatever happened here and it just didn't work out. To go from up to O to now lose 4-2 is absolutely brutal.

Rob, I mean, what do you think for our guy, Chris? It's like, can it get any worse, I guess is the question. He still got to the NBA finals. He still did something he had never done. before, played incredible basketball to get here, you know, engineered his team's run through the playoffs effectively. I see this is still an incredible accomplishment for him. Now, is he going to see it that way? Is he going to feel like pretty dispirited after this? I'm sure this is a gut punch to a competitor of Chris Paul's caliber. But he played like, again, within our understanding

of where he is in his career at his age, the injury he had, what this team was and their ability to get here. This is an incredibly successful season for him and the Sons. Like, make no mistake, this is not Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat. No, no. If anything, if my opinion of Chris Paul, which was already pretty high, has only gotten higher. He was incredible in these playoffs at his age. He battled COVID. He battled the shoulder injury. He had that incredible game against his old. team the clippers to send their asses packing. He had moments in this series. Like, he's 36. He ain't going to, like, he's not a spring chicken. This idea that he would come out and just be a

world beater. Every single game just doesn't track for me. That's not, he's not at that stage in his career. It sucks that they lost, but, like, you know, Chris Paul got got this team to the finals, man. Like, who would have thought nobody in their right minds thought Phoenix could make a finals this year. We thought, hey, man, they've amassed nice talent. The bubble run was beautiful. They could probably get a five or six seed and that is a vast improvement of everything

that they had been previously been doing. The idea that these guys would get to the finals playing the type of quality that we've seen them play in spurts in this postseason, come on, man. You've got to tip your cap to those guys. And Chris Paul specifically for the type of career he's had and for him to be able

to do this at this stage of it. And he'll be able to ring chase He'll do the Gary Payton thing when he has to. But right now he doesn't have to. He's like actually a great contributor. Well, just think about how many times in Chris Paul's career, he's gotten, you know, pretty far into the playoffs or all the way into the playoffs and then had an injury

that took him out of a series that derailed his season. In this case, everyone else had the injuries. All the other teams had the injuries. Chris Paul did too. And he was able to come back, play through those injuries, push his team even further than he ever had before. I think this is, again, It's not quite the fairy tale ending he would have wanted.

We can't quite put a bow on it in the way that would make it narratively satisfying, but still an incredible accomplishment for him to even come back and play in these playoffs as well as he did. So I don't disagree necessarily with anything that you guys are saying, but I can't help myself for thinking about Charles Barkley. Now, the comp is pretty easy going to the suns, making the finals, losing to a generational type of player.

And I don't know necessarily if, if we should ding Chris for this. In fact, I don't think that we should. Obviously, a Hall fame player, one of the best point cards of all time, that is bulletproof. That's not going to change. But what will happen is people will say, but he did not win the big one.

And I think that's important when we're parsing through the finest of margins with these elite top 50, top 25, whatever you want to say about Chris, all-time players. Like those little things start to matter more. And so, Winton will compare, let's say, Isaiah to Chris. We'll say Isaiah has two and Chris has none. And I think that's important.

It's a data point at the very least. So just to kind of water test this metaphor real quick, Janus is Jordan in this comparison? I mean, he's starting to look like it. Did you hear my stat from before? Mike Booneholzer is Phil Jackson? Whoa, whoa. Let's not be carried away.

If you watched the last dance, Phil was on some shit, man. He was just making stuff up about like dream catchers and whatever the hell he was talking. I like he would be a nut job in today's age but go no I mean we're all just out here making stuff up if we're being honest sure sure um but no I think it's important I don't know definitely don't want to kick him all he's down no trust me it would mean a hell of a lot for him to have won that ring I mean I think the prime example of this is Kevin Garnett just

think about what that one ring has done for his career and in the sort of the perception of it, right? There's this understanding that he was an all-time great, generational type talent because he won that damn ring, not that he wasn't. It's just like the perception it's set in stone. You can't even argue with it. Not only did he win the ring, he was the best player on that team in Boston. He was, you know, the main reason why they won that ring. Not that it wasn't a great team, but KG spearheaded that championship, right? And conversely, you could think of somebody like Chris Weber, who can't even get a sniff of the Hall of Fame, you know, because he never won a ring.

Like, he was a great player. He won all stars. He did all of this stuff. Not having won a ring has completely shaded the perception of him. Like, you know, I know he wanted to get front office gigs. He can't get that. Like, you know, like, and, you know, look at guys like Tranty Billups. You know, that ring, it carries a cachet.

Like, it takes you to another level as far as your perception. You know, and it can be just one. Just one ring changes everything for folks. So I think, yeah, it is going to have an impact on Chris Paul in a way that not having done it definitely takes them down a peg in a way that might be unfair. But it's sports and these results have to have consequences. They do. But I do think a run like this is important in kind of correcting the record on, say, his clutch reputation, say some of the criticisms of him and his game that were out there. because I do agree that the rings are really important as kind of a cultural touchstone

as something that people of future generations can look back at, you know, I'm sure basketball reference will be up in 50 years and people will look back at it. I hope so. God bless basketball reference. But it's an easy way to look back and say, oh, these guys did it. Or, you know, these guys want MVP. These guys want, we're all MBA. Whatever your metric is.

But just in terms of the public discourse around Chris Paul, I feel like it's shifting to a more accurate place. We're getting to somewhere that respects him and his game a little bit more, even if he does never win a championship. That's a good point. I do think maybe humbling himself too, because people love that. They love to see a guy fall from grace and pick himself back up. I do think it probably matters to a lot of people, but I don't actually care about that. But I do think it matters to see him go to a team like the Thunder and basically will them into something to take a bunch of spare parts that were just throw-ins in order to make the Cap-math work for the Thunder in order to get draft picks

and then to go to the Phoenix Sons and turn them into an ending content. That part of it is very, very convincing. But does bring us to our next question with Chris. He can be a free agent this next summer. Do you think this loss or anything about this finals changes your opinion on whether or not he should return

or whether or not he should ring chase elsewhere? No. Yeah, I don't think he's at the ring chasing portion of his career. I think, look, I think Booker and Aiton are damn good players and the ancillary young guys with Bridges and Camp Johnson. That's a beautiful, beautiful starting point. As far as look at all the postseason sort of experience they've already amassed, like this team is going to be tough.

They're going to be very, very tough. They have some nice, nice, nice young pieces and building blocks, And I think there's no reason to leave Phoenix at this point. Shouts to James Jones in the job that he's done, putting this thing together. I know we never like to call ex-player's geniuses the way some of the Dorky White's are. But James Jones put together a great, great, great team. And I'm sure he'll continue adding pieces to this thing. And so, you know, I don't see why he would want to leave, Finney.

Well, here's the counterpoint. Didn't you just say that we didn't expect the sons to be here? No, and it's a young-ass team. These are dudes that have never done anything ever in their lives, right? Like, you know, Jay Crowder went to the finals last year with the heat, of course, and then it's Chris Paul, but like, Cam Johnson Bridges, all the players that I just, they never even been to the playoffs, let alone gotten this far. I think as a young team, you couldn't have expected them.

to do all of this. This is only to me just going to make them stronger and better going forward, man. They know what they have to, because I think this is the thing about getting this far is sort of gaining the information on what it is I have to do to win now. Like what positions are defenses and offense is going to put me in that I have to improve upon? If you've never been there, you don't know what's going to be on the test. Like these guys now have the knowledge of what.

what's going to be on the test and can go out and improve upon those things. So that's why I think it's a big deal that they made it this far. As a team this young, haven't seen this level of sophistication on offense and defense that you do on your way to the finals, man. I think that means a lot for them. Yeah, the reason we wouldn't expect them to be there is because they're so young. You know, it'd be a different thing if it were the Portland Trailblazers and a team of veterans. If Aiton and Booker and Bridges and Cam Johnson come back 10% better next season, that's an amazing team. Yep. So I do think in the afterglow of a finals, especially if you go this far, or afterglow of a big playoff run, especially if you go this far, it's tough to say, let's do something different, right? This works so well. Why mess with a good thing? But I do think as you step away, and in particular, as the front office steps away, they have to be considering all the different options. And I do think one of them that's probably going to be on the table is Ben Simmons for Chris Paul. I don't know if either side would do that.

But I do think it's an interesting trade-off where Chris, if you're looking at the West, it's stacked every year. It's probably going to be more difficult next season. The East, even though they have the Nets and now the Bucks, at the very least, you're probably in, I guess the Hawks, depending on who they are, at the very least it's a top-heavy conference. You're probably ensured a second round Eastern Conference finals birth more easily, right? And you have to wonder if Embeddede is the type of just transformative, big, man that you really empowered in Aiton.

He is the adult version of what Aiton is going to become. And so you have to wonder, like, does it make sense? And if you're the sons, let's say, you know, Ben Simmons is just the type of player that just you can't pass up on. Like, in that system with so many shooters and Aiton, like, does he not like make sense long term? I don't know if I would do it. I'm just throwing out there as a possibility.

It's just like an interesting thing to think about. I just, go ahead, Rob. Sorry. I know you love transactions. Let me jump on this Ben Simmons trade rumor. We just created on this podcast real quick. No, I would have a hard time. People are talking about this. This is in the ether.

Come on. I personally would have a hard time moving from. We just spent months talking about and praising Phoenix's half court management of their offense through Chris Paul. and the idea that you're just going to punt that away for a chance of Ben Simmons, I would have a very hard time with that. Yeah, and I think another part of this is the Philly part where you're hearing grumblings about Damian Lillard

being disgruntled. And like, if I got a Dame Lillard option on the table for this dude, I have to see that through. I don't think there's any comparison as far as level of players at this point between Chris Paul and Damian Lillard. I think Philly, you know, maybe they're wrongheaded for this. I don't know.

But they probably think they can get something much better in return for young Ben Simmons, who, you know, some people think is already on his way to the Hall of Fame. They think they can get something much better for him in return than, you know, creaky, creaky body, Chris Paul. I'm just saying if he is creaky body, Chris Paul, you got this young spry, just thoroughbred, just waiting to be unleashed in a type of offense

with his good pal, maybe not good pal, Devin Booker. That might be complicated. That's the biggest reason not to do it. A little hairy. Right. I don't know.

It's an interesting thought experiment. These are the type of things that front offices wrestle with, the long term versus the short term. I doubt they would ever even consider seriously doing this next season. Jesus Christ. I forget.

about it. Just, no, the Simmons and Booker thing and now it's got me going down like that whole NBA problematic

stuff that happens. But yeah. Sure. Let's talk about this now. So already before this game, this was being hailed as a big win for small markets,

right? So for once, a team that didn't, the super team did not win this title. Uh, Waz, you're just chomping

at the, I wish the audio could capture the degree to which Waz's eyes just rolled into the back of his head. Look. It's taken away, my friend. I don't want to be the person that, okay, this is a different way to look at this. The teams that you can put together in small markets, when the dominoes fall in a way that is advantageous to you, you can win. if the universe align in such a way when you catch a couple of breaks,

you can win. And the point is that you got to be in it to win it. So all these people who are like, well, if I don't have a crazy super team and I'm not tanking, then I'm not in the game. That's stupid to me. That's completely stupid. I think what the bucks validate is this idea that, oh, I need all of the resources. I need to be just like LA be able to attract AD and LeBron

to force their way to my team in order to have any chance at a championship. That's nonsense. That's never been the case. So, yeah, really, some might call it a victory for small markets. I'll say it's a victory for people like me who want small market people to shut the hell up forever about it. We already had the Spurs doing their thing in a small market, but y'all still continued to bitch and moan about what's,

small markets can or cannot do. Now forever, shut the hell up. Small markets can do anything. Get out of here. So yeah, victory for the small markets, finally, apparently. No matter who wins, was wins. I love it. Yeah, it's tough.

I mean, to repeat the success of the Milwaukee Bucks, you have to find an absolute generational talent in the lower rec leagues of Greece in the middle of the first round. And not only does he have to be the best player or among the best players in the NBA, but he has to be so loyal. It has to be baked deep into his DNA

that he's willing to stay with a team like Milwaukee instead of play with, I don't know, friends or even elite talent like a Luca Donchich. That is the only thing that could bring you the same type of success. It's like, it's impossible. And like, to double down on that point, I don't think what the bucks did to build around Janus is all that different from what other teams did to build super like super teams.

Like obviously they they had Janus in hand, but they still completely unloaded the coffers of draft assets in order to get true holiday. They paid Chris Middleton a max contract in order to stay put. It's a brilliant trade in order to get Middleton, a second round pick in there. But it really isn't all that different. If anything, I think the trend is more you, if you want to. win a title now, you have to go all the way in rather than it is just small markets are back, baby. I don't think it's a broad trend so much as it's good to illustrate that there are a variety

of ways to build championship teams, that you can get a buy-in from a guy like Janus, that you can build a super team, that you can trade for great players if you need to do that, that you can draft great players. There's just more models when someone like Janus is willing to commit long-term to a franchise and win in this particular way. It's nice to see that payoff more than it is. Oh, let's, you know, there's some new, there's some new market inefficiency to exploit

in building a super team or building a champion. The variety is the point. Right. So this question is from Revin Elric. He asks, how can the bucks improve the roster at depth that point guard? I mean, that is an interesting point that they, as Rob alluded to earlier, they can get better here. I mean, just by adding the big ragu back in the mix,

they are theoretically a better team next season. Well, he just like a veteran minimum backup point guard would help a lot to his question. Little bits and pieces like that, you know, to the point where you can play potentially, dare I say, eight guys in an NBA finals game. Nine guys in an NBA finals game. It can be done. So, you know, the fact that they could find even just a little more role player help would be huge. Because they've gotten to the point where Brooke Lopez can stay on the floor in these kinds of games and be a big factor in a lot of them. That's huge.

that gives them a lot of minutes that they can then play with. The PJ Tucker trade obviously paid off for them in a big way, but there's lots of little ways they could improve this roster with all of their key guys still locked in over the long term. Are you worried at all about Drew Holiday going forward? Like, what is the, how many days did Drew Holiday have before he starts to like just thank God that Yana saved his bacon here? I mean, they don't win this series without him.

They don't do any of this without him. well make the case I mean he's not a perfect player obviously he's had some really rough offensive games also some really indispensable ones but the defense he played in this series is what changed it we just we just detailed all the ways in which you know them taking Chris Paul out of this thing

marginalizing him I mean need I say the like all time steel he came up with against Devin Booker and the lobby through like so many of the big plays in these playoffs came from interchangeably Janice and Chris and Drew and it's the balance between those three guys that makes that team so good. They really did find a nice working relationship

not only in key moments but with kind of like three man weave type actions and stuff that can involve all of them at once. I think those three guys work really well together and I, Drew has had some dreadful shooting performances. I don't want to excuse that. I'm just much more into if you can take out an all NBA guy on the other team or marginalize him,

that's a superpower. in its own right. Yeah, you know, I think the bucks, if the formula is that they're just going to be all world defensively and Janus carries them on offense and just ekes out enough buckets, you know, have at it. Yeah, I'm of the mind that Justin is. And like, there were times where Drew Holiday was dreadful.

Most of the time, you might say. There's times where he was just dreadful. on offense. And the thing is, you know, look, we love being smart and nuanced about this. And defense matters, but it's not as valuable as offense. It's just not, like, you know,

finding a reasonable facsimile at what Drew provides on defense, particularly as a perimeter defender, is just not as valuable as getting buckets. It's not. That's just an empirical fact, you know? Like, there's studies that show this. Like, it's, like, offense is.

more valuable. People who can score officially on offense are more valuable than these defensive stalwart type of guys. And, you know, hopefully he'll go into off-season and figure out a way to be better in half-court situations for this team going forward. But yeah,

there were times where he was just and it's not just about missing shots. It's about taking horrible ones. And missing them, you know? But I think he will be better in the future than what he show this postseason. I don't think this offensive performance is the

true holiday that is just going to be forever. They were calling him Eric Bledsoe at points, all right? Well, the one thing I will say is it did feel like the Bucks finally found the formula for success they had been searching for

in the playoffs for the past two, three years. This seems repeatable to me, especially in a long series. It seemed like they could just find a way to grind on an opponent defensively and put Janice in positions to be the best version of himself.

I wouldn't say that about this team in the second round. I wouldn't have said about them in the Eastern Conference finals. I don't know if it's just the opponent. I guess we'll see next year. But like, if they could be this team, I know feel a lot better about the buck's future, especially when we start throwing in the

super teams like the Nets, Lakers at full strength. Like there's going to be competition for that best team in the world status probably as soon as tomorrow. Yeah, I don't know. This feels like a much more complete, more confident bucks team than ever before, which is important. That's what I'm saying. I mean, I'm with you, Waz, that the single most important skill set of player can have is shot creation.

It's just, it is the most important thing, period. But we just watched a final series in which the better defensive team won. Like, the sons are the better offensive team, and they just got handled. So, like, that's where someone like Drew and not only the fact that he can lock up Chris Paul, but you can move him over, that he can defend Biggs. There were stretches of this game where he was just in everybody's head, bothering everybody's layup attempts, challenges, switches. He can handle so many of those assignments to the point that the flexibility of where to put him

is what made the buck so effective. That's a huge impact to have on an NBA finals. Right. We said it at the top of the last episode that we did. Just the harassing style of defense, the effort, the aggression, like that seemed to turn this series more than anything. And that's replicable with guys like Drew, with Janus, and some of the other guys that they have in this team.

But at that point you bring up Rob just brings us to my last question here. I do think we should talk briefly now that we have the Bucks as our title winner about the Asterisk's question. So this is going to get asked. Do you feel now that the Bucks have won this, do you feel any differently than before? I'll go to Waz first because I know Rob's answer. So let's actually kick this around a little bit.

Nah, I don't feel differently. You know, two teams relatively healthy to the most essential players, you know, save for Adario Sarich, who he would have been pretty important in backup spot minutes in this series. Like we mentioned Frank Kaminsky being dusted off. Both of these teams were relatively healthy, and there's a high level of talent on both teams, both relatively well coached.

Right. And so great talent, great scheme and strategy for the most part. And the Bucks came out on top. This is, that's not an asterisk to me. I think had this been Bucks versus that version of the Clippers that we saw or Sons version of that version of the Nets that we saw, I'd be like, you know, I would be pretty disappointed. But I think two teams relatively healthy, high teams. talent teams, I'm fine with it, man. This is a championship. They persevered. They had the injuries not work out in their favor. Some would say, maybe they got the great training staff and preparation or whatever that

allowed them to not be hurt. We never really offer that side of the injury argument. So, no, it's not an asterisk, man. The Bucks won this damn championship. And Janus did his damn thing in the process. You're right that it will be asked, though. And the fact that the Bucks won it is part of the reason it will be asked, which is part of why that question is such bullshit, because it's so, it's so based on the

outcome and not on the process. Like, you know, if we're going by like a call to ball while it's in the air mentality, the fact that the Bucks won shouldn't change your evaluation of the season at all, all these teams were on equal footing in terms of their schedules, in terms of the difficulties of the season, the challenges of the logistics, all that stuff. The only argument I would possibly hear would be about teams like the Lakers and the heat and the quick turnaround between the two seasons and the fact that that might have disadvantaged them in some way. but even these two teams fought through injuries. They played through injuries to get here.

I just am not very persuaded by any asterisk talk when it comes to the challenges of this season in particular. This was a tough field to navigate. I thought both these teams did it really effectively. But yeah, but that is why I would push back only slightly. I do think we've gotten to the point here where Asterix is a stand in for illegitimate, and that's probably because we use it so often in baseball

associated with steroid use. And so, like, yeah, you definitely want to diminish the feat. I would use the asterisk more as just added context or like a caveat. This season was so much different than every other season we've ever had before. The bubble was also so much different of a postseason than we've ever had before. And I do think that matters. And I do think it matters in particular because of what we're talking about the buck. The reason that they won were all saying is because of defense of just how much they try.

Yonis gives a shit. that probably mattered more in a postseason where it was more of a litmus test, more of just a marathon than ever before, and especially one where a lot of the stars just dropped out here and there. The Bucks won the title. I am very happy for them. I love Janice. Like, I love Janice.

I'm glad that he had his moment. But there's a little bit of a caveat here that they didn't really have to play all the best teams with their best compliments of players. That's all. it's all say. If your argument is that championships should be explained in context, I agree. I don't know that that's what an asterisk represents, though. I mean, it's it's, it's, it's see below, right?

It's check this little footnote out and we'll explain a little bit more to it. That's how I view it. As people who are in the NBA content business, I would hope all championships have the asterisk see below. Please, please listen to these pods. Please read this stuff. But at the same time. all asterisks aren't created equally, right?

It's not like, well, you know, a lot of Babe Ruth's records happen when there were no black people allowed to play. Like, that's a pretty big deal when you consider the contributions of black players throughout the history of baseball. But like, you know, there should be more asterisk then.

That's what I take away from that. Just put an asterisk on everything. Listen, Granlin had footnotes, man, and people love those things. Why can't we just put footnotes on everything anymore. Lord, have mercy. That's a bigger.

CMS questions are too big for this pod. That's true. As we were recording this, by the way, one Irvin Magic Johnson has been tweeting, he notes, if Chris Paul opts out of his contract with the sons, his first call should be from his best friend, LeBron, James, and the Lakers.

His next tweet is a big three with LeBron, Chris, and AD will eagle an NBA championship, which I take to mean that magic loves Spotify Green Room and is a big fan of the group chat podcast. Because he just wanted to give us content. Exactly. Listen, if Chris Paul opts out of his deal, which is like $40-something million,

to what, sign the mid-level? The taxpayer mid-level. The taxpayer mid-level? Now, listen, we've heard about the fringe benefits being provided to KD in Brooklyn. Are the Lakers that type of franchise? I don't think so.

The Lakers, like, have. money, but they're not like rich, for real, right? It's not like a balmer situation or a Joe side situation. Like, their wealth stems from being owners of this team. It's not like some independent wealth. So, you know, I don't know that they could do these, pull off these kinds of shenanigans of getting not to besmirch Chris Paul, not to say that he has side pieces, but that's what was implied. Like, these guys, the fringe benefits are like, yeah, we're buying condos for South Beaches and aunts. I mean, for side pieces and entourage members

and all of these fringe type of things like how many fringe things could you do to equal walking away from $45 million for the taxpayers mid-level? You know what's really ironic about this situation? So Chris, obviously, as the head of the players union, changed the rule from an over 36 rule to an over 38 rule,

which means basically you can't sign a player to a long-term, deal as a way to prevent teams from signing guys for one season and just paying them out after they retire. If this was still the previous rule, he probably wouldn't have as much of an incentive to sign with the sons because the sons, I believe, can sign him to a three-year deal because they still technically have his bird rights. If this wasn't the case, maybe the most he can get under the 36 rule, which I believe he is right now, he can only sign like two years or maybe just one big year.

And so this would have been more in play had he not done that. So just a little interesting cap wrinkle for you guys. And now he just gets bags full of money and gets to reside with the NBA, you know, the Western Conference finalist. Not bad. Right. Not bad at all. All right.

Let's wrap it there. I believe we'll be back Tuesday next week to talk some draft, talk some offseason. Rob's favorite topic here. Thank you all for joining us throughout this. marathon of a season, season plus. Let me say this. If you are a fan of just one specific team, if you aren't like these internet trolls that just like the NBA and like the drama

of it all, like Rob, go out and thank your beat writer because my God, this was a total slog of a season. I love this game. I love what we do. But I have to say, like, watching this much basketball,

having now a year into this thing. Like, it's been trying just mentally. and physically. So thank your beat writer. Those guys don't get paid enough. But yeah, good season, guys. Salute.

Salute. Great season. Well, great postseason. I love the playoffs a lot. I'm not going to pretend to be a fan of the regular season that we had. But the playoffs provided a lot of drama, a lot of high-level basketball, a lot of greatness from Paul George to Kauai Leonard to Janus to KD to, Luca Donchis, just some incredible performances.

So I'm thankful for that. And I do want to give a shout out to my man Ben Goliver of the Washington Post because he is the single biggest Janus fan I have ever met in my entire freaking life. So shouts to Ben, I haven't seen him since the whole pandemic thing. But shouts to Ben Goliver, bro. Janus Inc. Janice Inc. is going strong over there with Gulliver. All right. Thank you to Sasha Ashall on production. Thank you to Pat Mulbowney for shepherding us through all the green rooms. We'll be back next week.

Congrats to the 2021 NBA champions, the Milwaukee Bucks. We'll see you next time.