The Ringer NBA Show - Giannis Antetokounmpo’s Supermax Is a Referendum on the Small Market vs. Big Market Debate in the NBA

Episode Date: December 16, 2020

We are joined by Sports Illustrated’s Michael Pina as we take our last pod before the start of the NBA season as an opportunity to pontificate on Harden trades, who will win MVP, and the best League Pass teams of 2021 (44:33). But before we get into all that, we break down every detail of the bombshell news that Giannis has inked a supermax extension to remain a Milwaukee Buck (1:15). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Jonathan Tjarks Guest: Michael Pina Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Rob. We ran into some technical difficulties this week when we're recording the pod, but luckily our producer, Bobby Wagner, was able to stitch it all together. So you're going to hear a shift in my audio in the middle of this episode. Don't be alarmed. Enjoy the show. We'll be back to you with a CRISPR cleaner group chat next week. Hello and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly NBA group discussion where the show goes on. Let's get it. I am Justin Verrier, joining me back from vacation in Greece. It is Jonathan Tarks. it's good to be back Rob Mahoney is also here Happy Small Market Celebration Day to all of you Well we'll see about that

And special guests today A man of many internets But soon to be of Sports Illustrated Michael Pina What is up my friend Are you guys doing This is a pleasure, a joy We'll see if you can

If we can blow up to that By the end of this Today we're going to talk Of course about Janus And his new $228 million payday. We'll also, on the back end of the podcast, get into some early entrance survey questions

because the NBA season is less than a week away now. All that and more just after this. So, Janus is back. It didn't seem like we would end up here considering the past couple days, past couple weeks, were a little more mysterious than I think we probably would have expected going into the off-season.

His teammates were giving him pens that they wanted him to use the sign. The optimism that seemed to be emanating from the shores of Wisconsin didn't seem to be there any longer. You saw teams like the heat and the Raptors and the Mavs circling the situation by making moves to clear cap space for 2020-1.

But here we are. Janus is going to stay a buck for five more years after this one. Pina, let's start here. Are you surprised considering the weeks and months leading up to this that Janice chose to stay long term right now.

I don't think I'm surprised. I don't think that would be the word to describe my reaction. I mean, the timing is a little odd, I guess, just because he does this press conference last week, I think, and he does not really address the Supermax in any constructive way.

So why did he not sign the Supermax before that press conference? And it could be more of a celebratory situation. I don't know. But regardless, no one will remember that in a year or two. And everyone in Milwaukee should be parading through the streets right now. Yeah, because he also had a lot of different type of contract options he could go with. You could go to the LeBron route. He could go to the one plus one, two plus one, whatever would make sense financially

in order to set him up down the road. He could just not sign an extension before December 21st, which was the deadline to do so, just play out the season, see what happened, and then do something in the summer. But Rob, you're about this for the site.

He didn't do that. And I guess this isn't the best interest for him or for the bucks. Or I guess where do you end up here in terms of just like how this all played out? I mean, a gigantic bag of money is certainly in his best interest. He was going to get. a great contract regardless. He was going to get the contract of his choice regardless. Like Michael said, I'm a little surprised by the timing, but in the other way.

And like the why didn't he just play out a season, collect more data, understand more what the bucks were building with this kind of renovated group, and then make his decision based on all the information that was out there. I kind of thought he was going to go that route, but this is certainly a huge win for the bucks that he was willing to commit this early. I mean, this is just something you don't see in the NBA anymore in terms of players of his caliber are committing to markets of this size. So to get that kind of commitment, unmitigated success,

and now the Bucks can hopefully start, you know, taking steps forward rather than having to watch their step, hoping they don't anger Janus in some way in advance of his free agency. All right. I want to talk about the Bucs specifically first. There's a lot of ways we can go here,

but I do want to talk about what this means for them. My question is, do we feel better about them this season as a result of this? Because I feel like, and Pina, I'm curious how you think about this, we were pretty mixed on their moves a couple weeks ago. They didn't get bogged on, but they did get Drew. They seem a little bit better, but not appreciably better.

I don't know if they would have been the odds-on favorite to come out of the East. I think a lot of people still like them, but certainly weren't as much of a Goliath as they were last season. Do we think just not having this lingering over them, Pino, we could start with you? Do you think this matters in the wind column? Do you think they're going to be a better team as a result of this? Yeah, I mean, speaking to what Rob said earlier, I think, think the logical reason for Janus signing now is everyone can excel in the organization, everyone except Mike Budenholzer, who is probably still on the hot seat.

But, like, you know, I think I'm in agreeance with all you guys that Drew Holiday is a big upgrade over Eric Bledsoe. Soss Castillo coming into the picture is just, I mean, just hanging the banner now. I miss that. It's great. So, you know, they sacrifice. some continuity. I think they lose some shooting,

and I don't know what their starting five or their closing five will look like, really. So that's a little eerie, but I don't really see another team in the East that is just predominantly like a juggernaut right now. So I would still feel pretty good if I was a Bucks van, and even better after Yonnas signed this deal, which gives the front office more breathing room

and a little bit more flexibility with how they want to build this season and then going forward. Charks, what does it mean for Drew Holiday now? I can't imagine a bigger winner than him or maybe more specifically his agent as a result of this. I mean, when a team trade is, what, five first-found picks for you? You kind of have a lot of leverage.

So that was a given regardless, I think. I mean, he's sitting pretty for sure. Yeah, not only does he have more leverage because the Bucks can't do probably literally anything to get a player approximating his caliber, but he also, Yannis, took another big free agent off the market for next year. So Drew, you would imagine, has more

suitors. So it's really a double-edged sword. I can't imagine he's not thrilled about this. But my question, I guess, is, so this is clearly a long-term move for Janus. Do we think, Rob, like, this is the team Janus can grow with long-term

that would have been in his best interest. Because I think next season, we expect them to be pretty good. But you look around the roster, like, Drew is in a spring chicken. I mean, he's young because he came into the league young. but he has a lot of miles on his leg. He's had injury concerns.

Chris Milton also up there in age. He's now on a max contract, so that's going to be a concern. Do we think ultimately that the bucks were the best for Janus, if you're looking at the landscape? Well, he could have played with other stars. He could have played with other young guys. If that's what he wanted, clearly it wasn't.

Clearly, they did enough in terms of shifting the pieces around to accommodate what Janus thought could be a really good team going forward. And it's tricky because, as you mentioned, The young talent is the part that really hurts you. And it's what hurts a lot of contending teams, especially the dynastic ones, is they aren't able to kind of refill their rotations as guys leave. The Bucks haven't had that problem yet in terms of, you know,

core role players being picked apart other than the ones they were willing to let go. But unless you're really invested in like the Bobby Portis, choose your own adventure game, I don't know who you're looking at on this team and saying, oh, that's the young guy that's really going to blossom and take the bucks to the next level. Dante Divenszo's good. We've talked about him a lot and how important he's going to be. for the bucks. I would be a little bit nervous, though, about their ability to take substantive

steps forward without just having to leverage more and more draft picks via trade, more and more swaps, like whatever they have available, because clearly nothing is nailed down at this point other than those core guys. And how you go around building around them, it's only going to get harder and harder. See, I would say, though, that's the way the league is now. You kind of have to decide when you're going to go all in because you really can't win now and will end later anymore, right? Look at the Bucks, Lakers, and Clippers. I'd be the three best teams in the league, and they have no draft picks available. I think that's not a coincidence. That's just how it has to be. Well, I think that brings up the question. Do we think the bucks are as good, given the price that they

paid as a team like the Lakers or the Clippers? I would say that, like, yeah, the Lakers and the Lakers and the Clippers definitely overpaid in order to get the stars that they have, but they got two of the best guys in the league. And while you can argue maybe the Bucks overpay for Drew Holiday, got them Janus in the same way overpaying for Paul George got the Clippers Kauai. I don't know. I would still even, despite all that Paul George has been going through over the past year,

specifically in his internet travels, I would still pick that duo over Drew and Yanis. I think that's important. Okay, just not have a question. I'm kind of curious what y'all think. So who's the Clippers third best player, would you say? Zubach.

Sir, Barclam? No. Marcus. So would you take Drew and Middleton over Paul George and whoever the Clippers third best player is, if picking those two guys? For next season we're saying specifically? Yeah. Probably not.

No. Would you take those three over LeBron, AD, and let's say, Dennis Schroeder? Well, Davis is different. It's number two. I'm sure that has had to come up here. But he is probably their third best player. Now, who would it be? Tres, maybe.

just a couple of peers LeBron A, D. and Dennis Schroeder. I think you nailed it. No, but I hear your point, John. Well, how much do big threes, that third seat? How much does that matter? Or can you make that up like the Lakers did last season, much to our surprise,

but we'll probably have a better job this season doing in the aggregate? Because the buck's bench is the issue, right? We think those three guys at the top of their lineup are going to be very good. But I look up and down the roster, I'm saying, man, DJ Augustine is going to play a lot more minutes than you would like to. Bobby Portis is going to be functioning. I guess, like, their stretch four, and I don't know who else they would turn to there unless they want to play middleton there. It's just, it gets pretty thin pretty quickly. And I don't know what pathways they have to really improve those spots. That's the problem. I have. Buyouts. They have to be a buyout team now. Like, are the bucks a team that a guy who gets bought out wants to go play for? I don't know. How many guys on the biot market are really important? Like, we go through this conversation every year. Marvin Williams played.

probably better than most expected. He was probably among the handful of guys who actually make the rotation. But like the PJ Brown myth has really just screwed us up completely because a lot of these guys just come and they don't actually play significant minutes for these teams.

Sorry, go ahead, Rob. I mean, I can't believe I'm saying this, but Marquief Morris was kind of important, right? Like it was, you're right. So, I mean, there are definitely our cases. But I think in terms of the bioparket, what concerns me is this free agent class that the Bucks just had,

where, you know, let's just say they're not exactly in the front of the line for whatever bracket they're spending in. You know, if you're spending mid-level money and the best player you're bringing in is DJ Augustine, who's a fine player, but certainly has his flaws, may not be playable in long-term in the playoffs. Like you're adding Bobby Portis and Bryn Forbes and Tori Craig. Like, these are solid NBA players, but they're not the guys who are making a difference in a final series or a conference final series. So, you know, can the bucks get those kinds of guys in free agency or at the, in the bio market, that's a huge, huge question for them. I think it's kind of the looming one in terms of, you know, if you don't have a lot to trade, if you don't have this young talent,

and you can't get those, even the kind of really cheap veteran guys who are going to come ring chase with you, how are you going to make this team better? I think they're really good as is. I think they're probably in a position to contend for the title as is, but they're going to need to keep taking steps, and I'm not sure where those steps come in. All right. So the take that I'm kind of circling here is kind of a bit of a zag. So I think that if Janice wanted to stay with the bucks for sentimental reasons, great for him. There's a big pile of money in front of him. Like, I can't imagine I would make any different decision.

Clearly, he has a bond with that franchise that is different than what we've seen from previous superstars. That's great. But how many times have we said the sentimental decision is ultimately the right decision? Subjectively, like, I don't want to get into that argument. Whatever Janice decides is fine with him. But objectively, I look around and I say, there are better spots for him. I say, it basically comes down to a one-to-one.

Would you rather stay with the bucks? Or would you rather go play with the heat? I know they would have to move a little bit of money after the BAM at a bio extension, but you're probably playing with BAM, Jimmy, maybe one of Hero and Robinson, let's just say theoretically. I might prefer that situation. And the situation that really sticks out to me is going to play with Luka Danshich. If it's Luca Donchich, maybe Christop Przingis, maybe you could trade him someone else.

And Janice, that's clearly in my mind the better solution. And so I don't know. I think it's a great win for small markets. It's a great win for the bucks. Let me just say that. Like the buck's great job. This is probably one of the biggest moves since like the Kareem, like the Kareem error and the Oscar era. But I don't know if two years down the road we're not saying this was probably not the right decision.

Pina, what do you think? I would have loved to see Janus play with Luca. That would have been incredible. I think just aesthetically, watching those two run, pick, and roll would be just, I mean, good Lord, I'm sweating right now talking about it. But, like, Janus would not be the guy on that team. And I think there is the chance that he would catch the same criticism that KD caught a little bit for going to Golden State and joining someone else's team.

So when you're a two-time MVP back-to-back in your mid-20s, going to another team where maybe you're not even the best player is pretty questionable, I think. So maybe that was a factor for him. But I mean, at the end of the day, like, Milwaukee could win the title this season. But I get what all you guys are saying about how difficult it's going to be to improve the pieces marginally around the edges. But, like, at the end of the day, Yannis is, like, all the role players are only going to be as good as Yonis can lead them.

And Janus has parts of his game that need to improve. Like, that dude needs to develop a reliable mid-range jump shot in a postseason series. Like when it's nut-cutting time and they take away the three-point shot and they take away the kickouts and they take away the paint. So, like, I think that that is a variable here that we need to discuss as well, along with Coach Spud, you know, being less rigid with his rotations, with, how he is stylistically and how they're going to play on the defensive end. So these are variables, I think that they can control a little bit

for better or worse. But like, yeah, I mean, to answer your question, I would have loved to see Janus play with Luca. That would have been great. That's the thing. It's not like a theoretical. Sorry, Charks, you heard Bud,

so I could see you sharpen your teeth. Go ahead. No, I was just, I was going to say, I love Michael's point. I think, like, if Chris Milne's number two and Drew Hodage is number three, that should be good enough. if you're the two-time MVP.

Like, there's no more excuses for Janus. I feel like he hasn't gotten that much, like, heat for losing in the playoffs. But he hasn't been great the last two years, right? Like, he could be a lot better. And now it's, now he has his team. Let's see what he can do. The best thing that ever happened to the Bucks was the clippers imploding almost immediately after they did.

No, but I think that's a great point. I think people forget that Janus is 26 years old. Like, he is the young piece who can grow into something more, even though he is the two-time MVP, which is, really scary to think about. And as we just went through with the Lakers, like we can fret about supporting casts all day. Like we can pick guys apart who are coming off the bench,

who are going to be the fourth and fifth starters. But to y'all's point, like, it comes back to those starts. If you have those guys, then you're going to be fine. And if, you know, Janus is clearly one of them. If Middleton and Drew can kind of Voltron into one as needed during the playoffs,

bucks are going to be in great shape. Yeah. Well, here's my point, though. We've gotten to the point where a star player, who takes the giant bag of money in front of him to play with the team that we're all pretty much agreeing was not his best option in his title pursuits is hailed. But the guy who left money on the table in order to play with better players to play in a better situation, who literally just won the title as a result of that is Pan.

So clearly I'm talking about Anthony Davis. and while Davis's exit from New Orleans was certainly like just not in like his his best moment, I wouldn't really cape for him in terms of like his specific exit plan. But the decision specifically was ultimately, I think, what we would want from from players in a vacuum, right? We would want them to go do the LeBron thing, to go and pursue titles no matter what. It's all about rings, yada, yada, yada. And he gave up money to do it.

And yet that is not what we're saying is just like. as is heartwarming, as Janus staying, and potentially two years down the road, being in a much more compromised situation, and having to, in the worst case scenario, ask out, force his way out, and potentially this gets really more messy than it could have been. Are you making the won't somebody think of the Rings argument right now?

I guess I am. It's weird, though, right? I mean, it's all methods with these, right? I mean, the guy who stays with this team is usually not going to get panned, period. Like, we're very, as a society, we are very comfortable with inertia. Like, that's just something we're good with digesting versus Anthony Davis. The way in which he got out of New Orleans was not exactly palatable. Yeah, but like, I don't know why are we excited about guys staying?

Because I think all of the data that we do know about what fans gravitate to, and I'm speaking specifically about ratings, are super teams. And what everybody seems to want, especially every time I look at my timeline, is transactions. And so didn't David just give us everything he want? He gave us a title winning team in a huge market. And he just, like he created a super team, which as we've seen is like just what everybody actually watches. Well, I mean, I think it's pretty telling that in this podcast, we've done a lot of congratulations to the bucks. And not per se a lot of congratulations to Janus, even though he's the one getting this amazing contract. he certainly earned it.

This is a win for the bucks in the grand scheme of things. Janus could be great anywhere, could play anywhere. There is a finite amount of Janus on to Kumpo in the universe, and the bucks have cornered the market. That's kind of a big deal. I love super teams for sure, but I also, as someone who watches a ton of league pass,

like, I don't want a Milwaukee Bucks organization to just, like, not have Janus on it and have to watch that. Like, watching the, like, I was, kind of excited when the Detroit Pistons got Blake Griffin. I'm excited that the Charlotte Hornets have players that I want to watch now. I think that's pretty good for the league. At the same time,

I agree. I wish we could watch a like I want to see Janice and Luca also at the same time. So it's like this weird dichotomy and I can't really put my finger on exactly where I arrive with how I feel,

which is really a wonderful place to be in life. But I do think I think it's just like it's untenable for small markets at the end of the day to have these guys continuously leave after their second contracts. And so I think from that perspective, it's good for the NBA that Yanis is staying. And Justin, don't worry. Like in two or three years, Middleton will be older, Drew will be older. Maybe we'll have us whole thing over again. And in worst case, in five years, she's 31.

That's still pretty young. You'll get your moment, your transactions. Just slowly patient. see this brings us to our next segment here how much does this contract really matter so on the one hand i think you could have the discussion about the supermax finally really working here because while a couple players have signed it in the past like i think that this one is probably the biggest one so you had guys like wall sign it you had guys like russell westbrook sign it but i think we would all agree that when they did sign it it was viewed as an overpay

in the moment. This is one where the value is probably accurate to the player who is getting it. And we always talk about how the most undervalued asset in the NBA is actually the superstar max player who is way better than everybody else, the LeBron, the honest, et cetera. On the other hand, how much do contracts matter? Because simultaneous to this, the Clippers sign pulled George to a five-year max deal. And I do wonder two years down the road, if Kauai doesn't stay, are we getting into a Blake Griffin situation where the clippers cut the cord and all of a sudden that isn't as much of a heartwarming situation, staying home, yada, yada. So I think there's this weird push and pull here where it's like, yes, maybe this means something for the Supermax. By on the other hand, maybe this actually is just ultimately going to end up another example of the pitfalls we're talking about of signing long term deals and competing long term money.

Yeah, I mean, I think contracts are a state of mind these days more than anything, right? Like, Hardin'Ast out with two years left. It doesn't really, you're right in that sense. It doesn't really matter how long your contract is anymore. I kind of like, I take the supermax on a case-by-case basis. Like, if Rudy Gobert were to sign a supermax, that would be a total disaster for the Utah Jazz, for sure. but I wonder like will other players going forward follow in Janus's footsteps just like in particular those who would play for the small market franchises just like players after

LeBron followed in his footsteps and left to win because they saw how he was lauded for winning championships so I think that this is like there's a select few players who kind of qualify for I think the next one might be Nicola Yokic in Denver. We'll see what he does. Will he stay because Yonis stayed? Like I have no idea. But I kind of just take the Supermax case by case and try

not to overreact to what one player does in one particular situation. It's hard too because there's so few straight analogs to Janus as a player, to the relationship he's had with the Bucks, to his standing in the league, and even to Milwaukee just

as in terms of its market size. Like there's a lot of the teams we talk about as small market teams are really just kind of mid-market teams or just teams that are just outside, you know, New York, L.A., San Francisco, Houston, like that group is, those are huge cities. Milwaukee's like the fourth smallest NBA market in the league. And if you look below that,

it's some teams with them pretty interesting young players. You have New Orleans in that group. You have Memphis in that group. Like that's where that conversation gets interesting years and years down the line, hopefully with the John Morantz of the world, with the Zion Williamson's of the world, like can a market of that size,

a Milwaukee-sized market, teams that, I mean, again, Milwaukee's like half the size of a Detroit or a Minneapolis. If those kinds of teams can keep this talent, that's huge for the league. I just don't see this as anything but a pretty exceptional case, given all the pieces involved.

Yeah, I guess the question I have is, ultimately, is Yonis staying best for the league? I think the league would make the case that making the small markets viable, is a huge win. They could sell to the owners in New Orleans, like you're saying, Rob and Memphis, that like, yeah, this can happen.

There's still a chance that your player won't just immediately flee to Los Angeles as soon as possible. On the other hand, I don't know. They're also in the state where, like, ratings are really a concern going forward, especially during this pandemic years. And we talked about this in the past.

I do wonder how plugged in a lot of people are going to be to this season when there's just going to be game after game, there could be COVID absences, there could be injuries more than usual, just considering the pace of the season. And I don't know, like, is it better to have small markets successful? Or is it better to have, you know, super teams like we were saying? As far as the ratings go, though, you know,

if the problem is that there aren't enough games in the NBA season that matter because there's already an overly long season, there's already load management, there's already all these mitigating factors, taking a player like Janice off a team and plunging the bucks into kind of mid-playoff or eighth-seed type irrelevance, that's worse for the league, ultimately, I think. You know, like spreading the talent around,

I get the appeal of the transaction market of the super teams. Clearly, you need some of that balance, but to subjugate what has been a contender for the last couple of years into mediocrity, I think, would be much worse. You don't miss the Brandon Jennings' bucks? the Monte Ellis

bucks who are just dying to get into that a seat every year. What's weird is that they were and until this year almost are the Ersan Alyossova bucks fundamentally. I mean he's the great through line of the organization even though he left and came back many times but like that's what that team was.

All right. Let's pivot here to how this affects some of the other teams in the league. So we've mentioned this up top but there were three teams very clearly lusting after Janus just just daring him to not sign that supermax and to come next summer to their organization or perhaps even sooner things got really dire. I look around the landscape right now and I say to

myself, what are the heat going to do? And there's currently a superstar who is not really excited to be playing for his team in Houston. And I wonder if that ultimately isn't going to be the next option for a lot of these teams, and in particular, the Miami Heat. Pino, what do you think? If you're the heat, do you immediately turn your attention to James Harden now? You know, I guess if you're the heat, you have to, like, I look at it on two different, from two different perspectives. On one hand, like, if you do trade for James Harden, like, are you really tying yourself to Jimmy Butler's timeline? And are you worried about Jimmy Butler, a guy who's 31 years old,

who played the majority of his career for Tom Thedobedo, like when is he going to break down? And do you feel like your window is right now to win? On the other hand, like, if you think that Jimmy is going to look like this for the next, I guess maybe the life of his current contract, and you assume that Bam is going to continue to improve, you assume Tyler Hero is going to continue to improve,

and you have Duncan Robinson who you can lock up for the foreseeable future when he hits restricted free agency, and you just went to the finals, are you fine with that as well? Because I think, like, if you trade for Hardin, the fit is just so weird, assuming that they have to give up Robinson and Hero and different pieces.

Like, the shooting and the passing is really what makes Miami go, and the defensive versatility. So, like, you know, add Hardin there, you're taking the ball out of Bam's hands and kind of mitigating what makes him such a special offensive player. I don't know. I don't know if that necessarily makes you,

I don't think it's as open and shut as some people seem to assume, I guess. Okay, see, I was thinking about that. To me, they fit really well. If you have Hardin, Jimmy, and Bam, I mean, Hardin's a great shooter and passer, right? He's not worse on defense than hero. A pick and roll with Hardin, Bam, is disgusting.

And then Jimmy doesn't need the ball either, right? Like, those three together, I think like if I was picking a team for Hardin, I would love to have Jimmy and Bam as my two and three. Like that team to me seems like a freaking dominant team. If Hardin like buys in, obviously. Well, who's spacing for you? Well, Hardin.

He can pull up threes whenever he wants. There's your space right there. Spacing on the ball, the next revolution of the NBA. Then Jimmy does his thing. You know, Bam rolls to the basket. I think it could work. What is Precious at Chua doing in this situation? space. Well, he's going to Houston, right? Any young guy with three potentials getting out of

there. Well, there's with the heat and Hardin, there's kind of the double question of what would you do personally, like as a basketball experiment, which I would love to see Hardin there. I think they could make it work. And then there's the question of what would the heat do, this team that has, you know, like actual principles of how they like to do business. And I challenge anyone who thinks this could work to read Tim McMahon's article on ESPN.com today about the Rockets with Hardin and their relationship and how much freedom he had there and think that that player could work in a place and a culture like Miami. I just don't see the conceptual fit. I have a counter for that. Shaquille O'Neal. Mr. I recover on company time. Mr. I don't really

get in shape to the playoffs. I do whatever I want. And they traded Karan Butler and Lamar Odom. They had a great young team with them and D. Wade. And they said, Shaq makes us better right now. let's go for it. The culture fit didn't last long, but it got him a ring. To me, like, if Shaq can fit there for three years, Hardin is in better shape than Shaq, probably, right? I would argue that, like, the heat are even more steeped in their heatness now than they were in the early 2000s.

Like, the Kool-Aid has been brewing there, and it really is stronger than ever. Like, I really think they have pretty hard-and-fast rules about what a heat player is and is not, and Hardin is just flagrantly in violation of half of them. He just would not fit their criteria, I don't think. Is the player you're describing Deon Waiters?

Because that was like a couple months ago. And like, to their credit, Dion Waders had abs for like a couple months and that was really cool. But they have taken some risks here. This is fair. But there is a Deon Waders level risk and there's a James Harden,

let's gut the young core of our team level risk. Those are, we're talking about pretty different thresholds. I think if you're counting on Gore and Drops, I read because Goren Dragics was huge for them in the playoffs. And he really hurt himself. He's getting older. To me, there's a risk staying this team together, right? Milwaukee's better.

Brooklyn's a lot better. Philly's better. The East is going to be much improved this season. So to me, I think staying pat is a risk too. Yeah. I think what this will ultimately do, no matter what, is get a few of these teams in the heat in particular to make conscious decisions about their young guys. So in the heat situation, you really have to.

to decide, is Tyler Hero, the guy you want to go forward with, or is he someone you want to get involved at the very least in trade discussions? And I think that's an open question. Like, we assume that Bam isn't going to be in any sort of deal for James Harden. We assume it's going to be Hero, maybe Duncan Robinson. Do you think that Hero is the type of guy long term you would want over the prime of James Hardin's career? Because right now you have two seasons of a top five player, perhaps the best offensive player in the league. And I think that's an interesting question personally. I would go with James Hardin.

I think Jimmy Butler, regardless of what we say about, like, how old he is and whatnot, like, I do think he, like, he is the heat. And like, he did stuff in the playoffs that I think is just completely, like, you can't replicate and you can't replicate like what he means to that team. But I'm curious what you guys think, because Hero did show that he could be down the round, like multi-time All-Star, right? To Rob's point really quick, like, I feel like, the heat would be the only team that would have already suspended James Hardin for his behavior so far.

So I don't know. Like I am factoring that into whether or not they should trade for him. And yeah, like to your point, Justin, he has two more years on this current contract. And then you're going to have to pay that dude a lot of money. Do you want to pay that dude a lot of money when he's going out in Miami every night? I don't know. That's probably not how I would want to invest. If I'm Miami, the value of continuity in a league where there is no continuity anymore,

like I have an opportunity to do that. I have these super young dudes who are really talented, who play and fit really well together, who like each other, who enjoy each other's company. Like, if I'm Miami, I look at that and I like it, and then I have some cap space this summer, not a ton, but I have some, and I could add a different piece that makes me marginally better, and I think that that could win the championship, frankly. How old are we on Tyler Hero being a future multi-time All-Star? Yeah, I saw you blanching there.

How married are we to that thing? Just because, like, Tyler Here, a really good young player, I think benefits tremendously from a lot of defensive help, from being in a good organization, from being on clearly an excellent team that went to the finals. You separate him and divorce him from some of that context. Are we sure he isn't just like a Zach Levine type of guy who, you know, put up huge numbers?

could be good in the right context, but I would bet the under on the multi-time all-star experience for Tyler Hero personally. See, that's why I'm thinking, if you have a chance of James Hardin, I don't know. Hero should not be the reason you don't trade for James Hardin. I think there's lots of valid reasons not to do it. He should not be the reason you don't do it.

I agree with that, for sure. I've never had Zach Levine, speaking as someone who likes the Boston Celtics, I've never had Zach Levine in my nightmares. Tyler Hero was frequently there a few months ago. So, like, I don't, I'm not saying that he's going to be a five-time all-star, but I think he's, like, a pretty, like, his skill is footwork, his ability to get shots up and create space for himself. I mean, he's really, really good, advanced beyond his years. Sharks, where are you on the hero experience?

I like what Rob was saying about fit. I think for sure, having, like, a guy like Bam, opens up so many things. for Hero in that pick and roll, having Butler there. I mean, because we say like multi-time All-Star, there's just so many good guards in the league, right? Like, Hero's a six-foot-four guy who's never going to defend. That's valuable, but there's a lot of guys like that. I mean, Devin Booker's made like one All-Star team right now,

and he'll be lucky with Devin Booker. Like, it's just hard to make a lot of all-star teams. Like, when you're talking that level of player, you're talking a James Harden-level player to make multiple All-Star teams. Well, so if it's not the heat then, what about some of these other teams? So Pina, this goes to your Twitter timeline recently. What about the Raptors here?

Do you think they should be getting involved? Yeah, sure. I feel like their whole future plan here was tied into this confidence that they could lure Janus in free agency with Missai Ushiri, his past relationship, their championship pedigree, having Nick Nurse as the head coach

who's like the exact opposite. of coach bud in every single way. I thought that that was their plan and now that that is no longer an option, how are you going to win another championship? I don't know if Pascal Seacom will ever be that guy. I like Pascal. He wearied me a lot in the bubble. So like why not take the flyer on Hardin now?

And I think that would position themselves to be potentially the best team in the or maybe just the most, like, I don't know, like the Kauai comparison is obviously there for sure. And this would kind of replicate that. But they would definitely be better with Hardin than they would be with Pascal and Norm Powell, which is basically the tenant of the trade offer that I proposed. So what was the offer exactly?

Pascal, Norm Powell, two firsts. Get it done. Boom. Is that enough for, James Hardin? That's my question. I mean, Ben Simmons, obviously. But, like, that's, he's looking back on it. When they gave up for Kauai, they gave up Damar de Rosen and Yacquipurdle.

Like, looking, like, going, as you go back in time, that looks more and more insane, doesn't it? Like, they pulled that off. Like, that's not a gamble at all. Well, the one year was the gamble. Right. And he also, like, maybe didn't have a leg at that point. We weren't sure if he had, like, gangrene or something more serious. Whereas Hardin is, like, actually one of them were, like,

reliable superstars in the league if he's willing to show up. Because I think you need Pascal there, though, don't you in Toronto? Like, to go for a title with Hardin, you need a number two, right? So if you lose Pascal, the team isn't like that much better in Houston, is it? I mean, I like OG and Anobi taking more steps forward. I hear what you're saying, for sure. Pascal's super valuable on the defense event, especially. But I don't know, you got to give that up to get the superstar.

are and Hardens just on a different level. Well, I think the Raptor's position is what makes them such an interesting surprise trade candidate over the next 12 to 18 months. You know, they're going to have to do something to shake up what they have. They've got a lot of really good pieces. But no, their front court has been completely revamped losing Sergei Bach and Marcassau. Eventually, they're going to have to make a decision on whether Kyle Lowry is a piece of their future in some way or not.

The OG Pascal Fred Van Ville thing is nice, but you want to be able to add a little more to that. I'm very curious to see what they shake out now that they're kind of free of the possibility of getting Janus. Let's let's hit the dry erase board. Let's get the weirdest ideas up there on the wall and see what sticks. Yeah, I'm almost more afraid of what Toronto will do now that there isn't an obvious option for them. Like now they're the wild card team. They could just stay put and just keep just producing these guys, bringing them out of like community college and all of a sudden they're just like the next star rookie that we've never heard of before, or they could just like swing something that we're not expecting. I guess if I'm looking at the landscape, though, like it's hardened and who else? I think Bradley Beal,

we would assume, is going to hit the market within the next year. I think that's fair to say, but it does seem like just based on the recent CEO, the Russell Westbrook move, he's at the very least going to try that out. But if it's not Harden, it's not Beal, like, the market's looking a little rough here. You're kind of waiting for the next star to really just say that he was, wants out. The 2021 free agency market is just, it's getting bleaker and bleaker by the week, especially as these contract extensions keep coming out. Are we going to count Ola Depot? Or is that even off the table now as like a stock quote unquote star? I mean, what do we expect from Ola Depot this season and like going forward considering what he's been doing the past couple

seasons? I would say that other teams seem to not think he's a star in terms of the way they talk about him in terms of the way the packages could be coming to. together of a potential trade if that ever happens. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of consensus that he's a star level player right now. Yeah. Well, the one question I have is what do the Mabs do? So I think they would have

clearly been in the running for Yannis. And if you look at who else is out there, do we think any of those guys is the right fit next to Luca? Charks, you're close to that situation. Is there a guy that makes sense to target now that Yonis is off the table? That's why I asked for Ola Depot.

I think he would fit very well with those If he can be back to the player he was, he'd be a great number two perimeter guy, I think, guarding point guards, playing off Luca a bit. That's the guy I would go after next summer if he's going to be free. I think that makes a ton of sense,

if he's healthy, obviously. Charks, I have a question for you. Sure, hit me. What do you think about Rudy Gobert in Dallas? I mean, him and KP, I don't see what the point of that would be. It's just too big and slow. I think you have pick one or the other,

and I'd rather have KP then, Rudy. The one thing about KP is, like, I was thinking, as I've been thinking about the Mavericks in this preseason, like, oh, man, how great would it have been if we would have been able to see what they could actually do healthy against the Clippers if they were able to finish that series as they started it? And then it occurred to me that this just might be

what they bargained for with KP going forward. That this is, they're just in this perpetual limbo state with him and his injuries where it's like, can you count on that guy to, maybe as a number three player, but to be your number two, it starts getting really dicey, I think. What about Kauai?

Do we think Kauai will fit next to Luka? You're just sewing chaos in this podcast, Justin. Well, listen, like, are we sure Kauai's going to stay in with the Clippers? Like, if they don't get to the finals this year, are we sure he's going to stay considering his recent history?

I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be best to be sure of anything that Kauai is going to do at any point in time. That's the problem. He is the chaos agent, not me. if you were Kauai, like, where would you go that's better than playing for the richest owner in NBA history and right near your hometown and an organization that lets you live in San Diego? I don't think he's going anywhere. He's not eligible to sign an extension right now, which is probably why he hasn't, frankly. And we're talking about, like, players, you know, Anthony Davis came out the other day saying that he signed a five-year deal because he's worried about his health.

I believe that Kauai also worries about his health. I believe players are thinking about the pandemic and how that is influencing the league's financial picture right now and they want to secure the bag. So I would be kind of surprised, honestly, if Kauai did not resign with the clippers barring like a complete meltdown in the playoffs. I mean, he's reached, he controls the team flight status.

When you reach that status on a team, it's a pretty good spot to be in. Yeah, it's been a particularly lucrative situation for people around Kauai, allegedly, reportedly as well. Hey, you know where else you can go? That's a nice warm weather destination. Tampa Bay.

I hear it's nice this time of year. Point of order, to what extent are we obligated to call them the Tampa Raptors? I remember when the Hornets were displaced to Oklahoma City, they were kind of like the New Orleans slash OKC Hornets. Are we actually worming Tampa into the name for the Raptors this season?

I'm disappointed that there isn't like a jersey. Like they have some sort of training camp logo where it's like a raptor biting into a palm tree. Like, why can't that be one of their alternate jerseys? It looks great. I mean, maybe not dirtbag enough for Tampa would be my only complaint. It needs, like, flashing lights on it, like almost like a sketcher. We can get there.

Just like a little less design and a little bit more like walking down a boardwalk, you know, airbrushed T-shirt kind of vibe. See, I was thinking Tampa's more of like a canasta playing town, you know, more of retirement center than a than kind of a Jersey Shore facility. Different demographics for sure. Right. Tampa contains multitudes, I would say. Sure.

Or just toad. So yeah, quite a Toronto. That is my thesis here. Any takers? No. Not, don't think so. On that note, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the rest.

of these teams heading into next season. All right, it's here. The 2020-21 season. We've been waiting days and days for it to start since the bubble. We're going to do a quick entrance survey just because I don't think we'll have a podcast before opening night on next Tuesday. We could run through these relatively quickly. But based on our conversation about Janus, let's start here.

MVP, Charks. Is Janus in line for a three-peat here? Or do you have someone else at the top of your list for MVP favorite today? I think no chance for Yonis to win again. I was going to say Luca, but then I saw some of these pictures from Training Camp but I have me a little concerned about his MVP chances. So I don't know now. Can we talk about just the culture of passing around photos at unflattering angles of some of these guys?

Like, I swear to God, it's like someone takes a screenshot of their TV and it just so happens they catch James Harden at like probably one of his worst moments of the day. And all of a sudden it's just a referendum on like everything about him. I know this guy has clearly not been like prioritizing his health and his wellness these days. But come on, man. He's a freaking athlete who is probably like reeling off a stepback that nobody else can do two minutes later. Just can we give him a chance and can we take at least like a couple photos and have a sample out there before we just like really dog him for this stuff?

It's getting really out of hand. I like Hardin, and I get upset when people hate on him, but that picture, he looked exactly like Rick Ross. Like, there was no difference whatsoever. So, I mean, sometimes, like, you just got to kind of tell it like it is, I guess. Justin, is this a personal problem for it? You seem very concerned about unflattering pictures getting out online and people discussing them. No, I have a mustache now, which the audience can't see, but all of the photos look at of me these days.

No, so Luca, I think, is the runaway favorite for MVP. The odds favor him. I was looking at Fandle earlier, and he is a plus 410. Janus, surprisingly enough, this was right after the extension, plus 480. I don't know. Both of them don't really jump out to me. I think Luca is probably going to be in the mix, but he almost seems like he's too obvious nowadays.

I don't know. I go back to my Jason Tatum take from a couple days ago, a couple weeks ago. I just feel like it's going to be someone who just like, we don't expect who just plays above his head and just like blows it out, every other team out of the water. Is there anyone else that you guys can think about who might be on that dark horse list? I got somebody. I was looking at the fan duel odds here. Dame Lillard plus 1900. I mean, his team can finish top three in the conference.

top four in the conference. He averaged 30 last year. Everybody loves him. He doesn't take time off. I mean, that's basically it, right? He's never won the MVP before, obviously. Like, the narrative is there for him to capture it. I don't know.

He's just so lovable and awesome and staying with his small market team for his whole career. There's so many few guys who do that. So, like, if they're just, this was the year for him to actually win the MVP. I think this would be the season. So, dame's kind of my, like, my sleeper pick.

But I love Jason Tatum, too. I want to get that on the record. Yeah, that was just red meat for, for Pena. For you, you're just tossing it into, into the cage for him to chew up there,

Justin. I would have said Robert Williams, if I really wanted to impress Pina. Gang, gang. Before, before we go too deep on the Dark Horse stuff, I want to circle back to something Chark said about Janus.

Like, why do you think he is definitively, open and shut a non-starter for you as an MVP candidate. You just, when you went two in a row and you lose in the playoffs, I just don't think the vote out could be three. It just doesn't seem like that's how it goes. There's definitely that. There's definitely that invisible tipping point somewhere.

I'm trying to figure out where it is with him. But especially I kept going, you know, I think Luca is obviously a really strong candidate, especially in the camp of guys who are really good on good teams, who it's clear that that team doesn't quite have everything it needs. needs yet to be a true contender. And I think he'll get a lot of buzz for that for elevating them. But then if I get to the end of the season, I'm just not sure I'm going to see an argument that Luca is better than Janus.

Like I think we're going to have this very interesting, nuanced, lively conversation about their offensive games and how they compare and what Luca does and what Janus doesn't. And then on defense, we're just going to like, oh, Deonis plays defense. We're going to put that off to the side to have this spirited debate about who the MVP should be. But like, in what world is Luca a better player than Janus? the season's end. That's a good point.

That's why I go back to KD at plus 1,400. How has he looked in preseason? Have you all seen him to the Nets play? What did y'all think of how he's moving? It looks pretty smooth. Yeah, it looks good. Although his legs look like toothpicks even more so than they did before. And I'm almost wondering if like one of these things.

What happened to a little picture shaming, Justin? What just happened to this whole picture shaming thing? It lasts like two minutes. I watched the entire game, man. It's a sample size issue. You know, we're going to put a ban on anything. that could be considered like putting a curse or a hex or bad juju into the air about KD and his leg injuries. Only good thoughts about KD's health and maybe needily thin legs going

forward. Well, here's a question that I think we're probably going to have to face at some point. If a player misses some time because of COVID, let's say it's two weeks. Are we going to hold that against them in the MVP conversation? Because oftentimes it comes down to games played and stats they put up, wins they put up. Like if Yannis is gone for two weeks and he didn't do anything wrong in order for that to happen. Are we going to hold it against him? I think we'll hold it against James Hardin probably. I don't get much benefit of the doubt if he has to miss time.

I mean, I'm going to say being a super spreader is a net negative for your MVP chances in James Harden's case. Let's move along here. League Pass rankings. So who is at the top of your league pass dial these days? Pina, why don't you go first? It's kind of a boring pick, which is not what you want for the top of the league pass rankings. But I really want to watch the Golden State Warriors this year.

I'm very excited. I was watching Steph last night against the Kings. Just watching him at three is a joy. I missed it last season. I missed it in the bubble. I'm really curious to see what Draymond looks like. I'm really curious to see how Andrew Wiggins fits in now that he has a much less responsibility and much less pressure. And like all of the Instagram videos of James Wiseman, I'm just like, I'm totally sold.

He's going to be the MVP in two years. So, yeah, I'm just really excited about the Warriors again. Wait, what are these Instagram videos? Like, I just, you know, you see them popping through. It's like where I get all of the, like the John Wall footage of me that I get excited about is just like the Houston Rockets official account posting him dribbling a basketball and looking really fast. So I get really excited.

That's where we are with the media today, which is really, really a great state of affairs. I would say point of order on this podcast, you have to mention Kelly Ubrey, whatever team he's on, has to get. Tsunami Poppy. I only refer to him as that from now on. Yeah, I feel like Underdog Steph is the best version of Steph. And you could already see that play out last night during that preseason game. It's just like it has so much more momentum and excitement behind him when there are like real stakes to some of the stuff he's doing. Not just like completely mowing down teams in the middle of March, but like

every game probably matters, just like a little bit more now for the Warriors, which is pretty exciting. Well, Rob, who's at your, who's at the top of your list? I almost didn't pick this team because I thought they would have more nationally televised games, but they only have 12. And that's the Brooklyn Nets. Give me the all you can eat buffet of Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, and forcing the previous team to figure their shit out basketball. That is a really appealing combination in a way that I've never even really been a Kyrie guy in terms of being really invested in his style of play or even the aesthetics of it. But something about this fit and something about the unpredictability of it. I mean, I'm in on a night-by-night basis.

And Rob, there's going to be eight post-ups a game for Kyrie. Like, we're changing the league right now. The post-up wasn't dead. It was just, you know, waiting for Kyrie Irving to get back from injury. I'm already tired with the Nets. I've staked out my claim on this hill already. It's just like the Kyrie pawn stuff, like him making his triumph return.

Like I just, I can't do any more of it. I'm sorry. Like, I'll watch the games occasionally. You can't be- That's what a pawn would say, Justin. You can't be pro-chaos and anti-nets.

Those are not compatible positions, I don't think. I stand for the pawns, my friend. I'm a man of the pawns. Charks, what about you? Week pass ranking. I was going to say the Nets, but since Rob already picked them, I'll go with the Pelicans. Like, I feel like we were robbed of Zion last year. We didn't really get to see him play too much.

He came back in the bubble. He was really out of shape and kind of just huffing and puffing and puffin. I want to see like fully activated, fully realized. I think he said there was going to be no minutes restrictions. I got to see that for sure. All right. You guys are all wrong because the correct answer to this question. is the Washington Wizards.

Like, Russell Westbrook is playing with Bradley Beal. There are young guys who may or may not be good. They're going to score probably 158 points every game. They're probably going to give up 169 points every game. Like, this is exactly what League Pass was designed for. The teams who will not be good, but they will be thrilling. Well, plus a crucial attribute of any league pass game,

they play on the East Coast. So you get that early, the early start before you get into like the national TV game or the headlining game of the day. You know, got to get that East Coast time game in as early as you can. I feel the same way you do about the Wizards, but about the Hawks. Like, I think their offense is going to be scintillating and incandescent, but defensively just a total train wreck. And they're perfect for League Pass. Absolutely. Yeah, Wizards, Hawks, those games are going to be wild.

It's going to be like 150, 145. I just can't wait until someone on the Hawks throws the ball at Trey Young, Kevin Love-style. Like, I will be watching for that specifically. Who do you think it's going to be? Who do you think it's going to be? Oh, it's Rondo, for sure. It's Rondo. The odds are off the board.

No question. Yeah. Really quickly, though, Sharks, you wrote about the Wizards on the site. Where are you in your optimism for the Russell Westbrook era in D.C.? See, what I was kind of saying in the article I wrote yesterday, was I actually think the Beale-Westbrook fit could work. But I think their young guys don't really fit around them. And it would not shock me if they traded some of them.

Like, remember that Ubre for a Riza trade two years ago? That could happen again, it's my guess, to get more veteran guys around Beal and Westbrook. They're all in for better or worse. Yeah, that trade really worked out for them. Is Ernie back? What's going on? Ernie never left. This goes remains.

There's some Isaac Bonga slander happening here. Like, what about Banga is what I would say to you? You know, I'm kind of increasingly into Rui Hachamura. And I think this is my, you know, everyone has their preseason hype machine running in the back of their brain where they get too excited about a player. I mean, I saw him like shove Kevin Durant over for a rebound the other night. And it was like, okay, like, I'm suddenly very invested in this experience. That's a good place to pivot here. So the next question on our list here, who is your most intriguing?

player, Rob, are you saying it's Rui or do you have someone else? Well, I mean, really, it's Kevin Durant, but we've talked a lot about him already. I think, you know, for the fifth season running, it's probably Ben Simmons for me. And the like, will this finally work or will the rubber meet the road in terms of finally needing to trade one of these guys' conversation? I'm very hopeful about the Seth Curry, Danny Green influence. But if history has taught us anything, it's that once you join the Philadelphia 76ers, there's a decent chance

you just never make another three-pointer again. I hope that's not the case for those guys. I hope that it all can fit and work very well. But Ben in particular, whether he is all-NBA player for the Sixers and leading them on a deep playoff run, whether he is the new franchise player for the Rockets,

and they have this all of a sudden kind of invigorated rebuild around him in Christian Wood or something. I'm very interested to see where his season goes, and he's certainly talented enough to take it a lot of places. Yeah, I was watching their preseason game last night,

just a little bit in the background. And there's definitely like a verve to that team that just wasn't there last year. I don't know if it's Danny Green just being like a consummate good guy. I don't know if it's Seth Curry doing the same thing and just running around already looking like he's JJ Reddick. But there's like a life to that team

and just like an enthusiasm that was just completely absent last year. So I'm curious how that kind of trickles down to the rest of the roster. Charks, who's on your list? I'm going to say Devin Booker, and Cat. I think those are the two guys kind of on the clock. Their teams are on the clock and their teams are set up for those two guys to just get

buckets. Like I love watching both those guys score. I almost seem going for like 30 a night every night. I think it doesn't work out this year. All of a sudden, those two guys, like, all right, what's happening in these franchises? Like, those are the two guys, I think kind of, they're the next pivot point after Bradley Beal and

Hardin is those two guys. Do we have any confidence that the wolves will be in the playoff race? I think now that it's 10 seeds. I think that's, I think that's the underplayed story is the playoff race is 10 seats now and not eight. Well, and if the rockets don't have Hardin, you know, that's a, that's all of a sudden a playoff spot that

we're maybe counting on in our projections that's suddenly a little more up for grabs. Yeah, I just look at the standings, even with 10 spots there, and I just don't know who is going to be bad at this point. You'd assume that the Kings ultimately will be bad, and maybe the Spurs, just given how much youth they have up and down their roster these days,

but like the Spurs make things happen. at the very least I expect them to be in the 10th seat, if not just like completely blowing out expectations and being like eight or something even higher. See, I would say though, you have to always remember one team's going to get hurt. It was Golden State last year. They went there, the 15th seed.

Like someone always gets hurt. And this year with COVID, maybe two or three teams get knocked out the race. It's going to be wild with COVID especially. Pina, who's on your list? I'm really intrigued by Jamal Murray. he had I mean he was one of the best players in the bubble average 27 shot like 45% from the three point line look like Steph Curry played like Steph Curry you know statistically he kind of plateaued in the regular season from year three to year four I'm really interested to see which who is Jamal Murray which is the real version of him is he going to be an all star should we be is he a shoeing to be an all star based on what we just saw it, was that leap real? So for a team that went to the Western Conference finals and felt

like they should have beaten the Los Angeles Lakers, like there's a lot of expectations and a lot of pressure on him, like I'm fascinated by Jamal Murray. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because I was thinking about putting Yokic in the MVP race, but now I'm not sure, like, wouldn't Murray be the guy because it'll probably be the leading score of that team. It's kind of interesting dynamic with those two guys. Do we think the nuggets will be good enough to get Yokic into a conversation like that or get Murray into a conversation like that. I do wonder, even just in terms of regular season performance, where they're going to shake out if they're not more of kind of a, end up five, six, seven in the West kind of situation.

See, I feel like to me, they're going to be a really good regular season team. I think the concern with them is the playoffs and their defense on big time players, but in the regular season, they score so many points. I think they'll be okay. And they've continuity, too. I hope so. I mean, they're a lovely team to watch when they're rolling, always very interesting, a good team to have in the mix.

I just, I find myself a little down on them these days just relative to a pretty stacked field. I mean, it's, you know, some team is going to have to be a casualty of the numbers in the West. I could see the Nuggets as a, you know,

having a case for that. Okay, so like, if you have the two L.A. teams at top, who do you have a three and four in the West right now? Like, kind of in that,

if it's not Denver. That's an impossible question to answer. I'm sorry. It just is. I mean, Dallas has to be in the conversation. Yeah. Portland just based on their offseason.

And I'm going to say it, I think the Phoenix Suns could win a lot of regular season games. Okay. Okay. But, I mean, third seed regular season games is a lot of regular season games. I mean, what does Chris Paul do if not just like grind on young people in order to get them to play above their heads? Like, this roster is set up perfectly for him to just like turn it into something.

I would agree with the Phoenix take, but they have, I think, nine back to best. backs in the schedule that's been released, which is the most of any team that has playoff expectations. So I don't foresee Chris Paul lacing them up for all those, which is troublesome for them. But like, what about the Utah Jazz? I mean, it's just, it's, it's stacked. It's continuity, yeah. Yeah, if Gobert comes back and like they settle his extension, like, they should be better than they were last year, just because they'll have Boyan, they'll have hopefully Mike Conley settled into his role.

and they'll have everything that they had before. Yeah. I think the Jazz, it could be a scary regular season team. The Conley Renaissance is coming. I'm prepared for it. I think the Jazz have a really strong case to be a three or a four, like just by continuity,

by the pieces they have, by getting Bowion back. Like, there's a little bit more stability there than a Nuggets team losing Jeremy Grant and all of a sudden relying a lot on Michael Porter, Jr. or a Dallas team to really elevate and be more consistent throughout the season than they've been.

You can see very easily how Portland gets into this conversation and how people are so high on them just for the chaos of this range. And Damien Lillard is a sure-handed player. They have all of a sudden a very deep and interesting team. You could definitely talk yourself into them. It's a brutal group. Not an easy thing to sort through for any of these teams. Yeah.

In the discussion about Jamal Murray or even Yokic for MVP, I think there are two things working against them. One, there's that whole axiom that like everyone starts zero-zero in the preseason. I actually don't think that's true because wherever you set the bar, well, it's literally true. Wherever you set the expectation bar in preseason colors how you view that team throughout the season.

So if we're saying for the Nuggets, they were a team that should have beat the Los Angeles Lakers or they, at the very least, they could have given them a run for their money. If they don't oversee that, we'll say, like, well, they're fine. I don't know if Yokic really did much for them. And all of a sudden, they're just not as sexy as a,

pick for MVP in those sorts of awards. Number two is Michael Porter, Jr. Like, has anybody asked him if Tomom Murray is going to be an MVP candidate? Because I think he is like both the piece that's going to take them to a next level or potentially just drag them down, kicking and screaming to his level.

I'm here for Porter. I love him. He's in a space to floor for those guys. It'll be great in the regular season. He definitely seems like someone who's just willing to sacrifice and accept a role. That's totally, based on everything that we've heard. Well, on that note, actually, the guy I had on my list was DeMarcus cousins. Another guy who in the preseason is just...

Well, that's a deep cut. Well, he's just, like, looked like old school Demarcus cousins. And I don't know how long that's going to last for, but if they get anything approximating like New Orleans boogie, Sacramento boogie, they just found like a all-star level talent for literally nothing. I don't know how he's going to mesh with like some of these other places. players, like if James Hardin comes back, is he going to be okay with Hardin just being the side show and all of a sudden, boogie being like the center of reason and like the old

sage there just like trying to calm everybody down? I don't know. But I'm just fascinated to see like what he is at this point of his career. Christian Woods backup is a answer. He started though this past game. I don't know, man. I can't wait to find out. Let's move on here. Bold prediction. Charks, do you have one? I know you're just like stewing on something bold right now. I'll go with, I think it'll be either Dallas or Denver is the number one seed in the West. I think the L.A. teams are take it easy. They're going to rest their stars. It's a long season. They're planning for the playoffs. I think these are kind of two young teams, a lot of talent, who are ready to go now. So I'm going to say they push for the one seed because I don't think LeBron cares about seating.

I know Kauai doesn't care about seating. So I could see the L.A. teams kind of chilling in the regular season. Very high on Denver. That seems like a lot, considering what we just said about them. I think regular season they're going to be fine. To me, it's like a playoff issue. But regular season, they're just going to score so many points. They'll be fine.

Pina, what do you think? Can I think bold? Do you want to get off your chest? This is bold, bordering on insane. But John Wall is going to be an all-star this year. Yeah. Wow. That is bold.

I love it. You know, I don't like watching the preseason because I get these opinions. But he, I mean, he looks like he did three years ago. He looks super fast. He gets into the paint. He's setting up open three-point shooters. He's trying on the defensive end. Like, I can see him averaging 20 and 10 heading into the All-Star break,

even though it isn't a real All-Star break. And, like, if Hardin is still there, putting up those numbers, that means they're probably within a few games of the top seed in the Western Conference. They could be a four, five, a six, whatever, but they'll be in contention. So, yeah, that's my pick.

And there's really no other rationale for me to justify it. It's totally... Well, I guess the bold take is the Achilles is no longer a big deal. That's really the bold It's fine. It'll be back. The Achilles is overrated. The ACL is the

new Achilles. There we go. Yeah. I do think, though, like, whoever ends up in Houston, if Hardin isn't there, like, they have the opportunity to put up a load of points. And so going back to the multi-time all-star conversation with Tyler Hero, it's probably in his best interest to reach that goal if he does end up in a situation like Houston where he's just putting up shots left and right.

Like, I could see a pathway where the Rockets just trade for a bunch of young guys for Hardin and all of a sudden Wall is taking like 20 shots a game. I mean, is there, I don't know how bold to take this is. If the Rockets end up trading hardened for Ben Simmons, is there a chance that team still makes the playoffs? You know, Wall and Simmons are not a good fit together. There's a lot to work out. But I could see if a trade like that ends up happening,

them worming their way into like the play in games as like a ninth or tenth. And John Wall is like such a gamer in those kinds of situations. I could see them squeaking their way in, even if they do end up giving up part in the middle of the season. I think, you know, the spacing would be a nightmare. But I just am so compelled by the talent of that kind of combination that I think they still might be able to pull it off. If you eliminate like the hard feelings that PJ Tucker has,

that Eric Gordon has, that all these guys feel towards Hardin and towards the organization, then, yeah, I don't think it's that. bold at all. I think they could definitely make the playoffs for sure. But those guys are all really good enough right now. I don't know that Eric Gordon would be too upset about Hardin leaving though. Maybe Tucker would, but Gordon would be like, oh man, here's

some shots. I get the ball again. This is fantastic. So this actually leads into my bold prediction. So I'll go here. I think the Philadelphia 76ers are going to the NBA finals. I'm back, baby. Like, I don't know long term about this partnership.

Like, even if it works out, I could see a Joel and Ben Simmons just parting ways just based on like their stature and like how young they are and perhaps competing agencies get involved here in some fashion. But I look at the east and it seems wide open. And last night, man, perhaps again, like Pina, I'm just like I'm lured in by the siren song of preseason. But man, it just, it seems like it works. It seemed like it makes sense. Like they have shooting now. Juel is like just messing around. he's taking like step back, pull up jumpers.

And while you do not want to see that in a regular season game, it just seems like it has a little bit more of a spirit to him. And this team is just so talented. And I just think if like they could just organize it in a way that makes more sense, like they are a force to be dragged with. All right, Justin, I'm curious. So like, who's closing games for them in the playoffs in the fourth quarter? So you would assume it's Ben, Tobias, Joel, right?

Every time. I think Danny Green is probably going to have to be in. there. He started last night's game. And then like, Seth Curry is going to be the pivot position, right? Is he going to be able to guard guys or is he just going to get picked off left and right, just like J.J. Reddick used to on the defense. I'm not even saying that. I'm like saying, like, who's the Jimmy Butler who had did it two years ago for them. Like it's Ben Simmons closing games off the dribble. That's going to win the east. Well, did you not just hear me talk about Joel and Beads pull up midrange jumpers, man? Oh, so it's, it's Embeddeed now. He's running the

offensive in the post in the fourth quarter. No, I think it's a good question. I, guess the converse of that is like can't they just draw up good shots like not to go all like 2005 henry abbott on you but like can you just like isn't a good offense like what you want in that situation not necessarily a hero ball player oh to your point just like yeah to your point like watching last night like i cringe every time joel and b takes a long too but they were coming last night off of like pick and pops with seth curry wide open in the flow of a normal offense as opposed to him like jab stepping and doing a rip-through move before shooting. So like it looked a lot cleaner, which is what Daryl Morey obviously envisioned.

I am totally buying all of this, which makes me think this whole pot is just like a, this is your brain on preseason basketball PSA. Be warned everyone out there watching pre-season. Watch responsibly, please. Isn't this team the team before Butler was there when it was like Bell and Ellie Osova spotting up off Joelle and bat team had shooting? they lost the Celtics in the second round. But like Seth Curry is an actual good shooter,

not a Marco Bellinelli shooter, you know? I mean, Joelle and Ben are also theoretically better than they were two or three years. Are they, though? That's actually a good question. I don't know. Rob, what do you think?

What's your bold prediction? I'm going to be honest with you, Justin. I cycled through many different milk toast, tepid level predictions. You? I got nothing for you. I got nothing bold. I couldn't even get up to like medium level spicy on this take.

All right. Well, give me a salteen cracker ass take that you want to get off your chest. Salteen cracker ass take, I think a lot of people are going to eat their words about the clippers this year. I could see them coming into the playoffs and just ruining people. And not because like any magical thing has been fixed, but because I don't think there was anything that was that broken in the first place. Sometimes teams get into a little bit of a rut

in the middle of a series and they lose the thread on it. I think that's what happened to them against the Nuggets. I could see them being terrifying. And the regular season will be whatever it will be health-wise for them and however seriously they want to take it.

But I still would want absolutely no part of them in the playoffs. I think they're going to be really, really good. That is absolutely my favorite take that I've heard on this podcast so far. I could not agree more. I'm so here for the Kauai Revenge, Bench Tour. It's like, I want to see it so bad. So bad. Well, and it's as bold as it gets,

Clippers will be good. Yeah. Well, here's the question. If you look at their roster in comparison to Lakers, like who's the more talented team on paper top to bottom? It's a conversation. Such a dangerous phrase is to use with the clippers on paper, but it compels me. I can't argue with it. Yeah, I said this last week, I think, or maybe it was the week before. Like, that's the problem with chemistry issues. You could solve it by going on like a bowling trip with everyone on the team or you could just be irrevocably broken and like it just doesn't make sense and you can't fix it ever. That's that is the Clippers. Sir Jabaka, man, he's the chemistry guy. Him and Kauai are friends. That's all I need it off the whole time. I think the key is understanding that we're all

already irrevocably broken and you start from that place and then you can get pretty easily to the Clippers winning the title. So now that's a good take right there. Now you're getting spicy. People are broken. Let's go. Jesus. All right. Let's wrap it up here. Finals picks. Pina, who is going to make the NBA finals this year?

I have the Clippers. Rob, shout out to you. The Clippers over the Milwaukee Bucks. All right. Rob. I'm a coward and can't even stand by my own take. So I'm going to pick the Lakers. Jesus.

But I mean, I'm right there with the Bucks again. Like, you know, some people see a wall and go around it, Justin. I'm plowing through it with the honest. Like, I think the bucks are going to get to the finals this year. What they do there, big TBD on who is even like finishing games for them. But I think they're going to be good enough to win the East. Sharks. I'll go Lakers Nets.

LeBron versus KD one more time. All right. And I am going with the Sixers, as I mentioned before. And I'll go with the Lakers because I am also a coward. All right. That's a good place to wrap it up here. Pena, thank you so much for joining us, man. Yeah, thanks for coming on.

Oh, my God. Thank you. This is so much fun. We can catch you soon at Sports Illustrated. That is true. I start on January 1st. So I have a couple more weeks here to wake up at Lord knows whenever and kind of just eat cereal for every meal and just enjoy not having a job for a little while. All right. We will be back next week at the same time and the same place.

Until then, enjoy the hoops on Tuesday, and we will see you right after that.