The Ringer NBA Show - Giannis, Harden, and Luka Have Broken PER. Plus: Are the Raptors the 1993-94 Bulls? | The Mismatch

Episode Date: December 3, 2019

The high-usage superstars of the league have all become so dominant and efficient that they’re in line to break historical PER records. Do we need to adjust the record books to reflect the 3-point era (3:00)? Plus: The Pacers have righted the ship while the Jazz haven’t, and the Raptors are more legitimate than anyone could’ve predicted (18:30). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Mismatch on the Ringer podcast network is brought to you by State Farm. Just like basketball, the game of life is unpredictable. Talk to a State Farm agent and get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected and help you handle whatever life throws your way. Unpredictable like the three best PER seasons and NBA history happening this year. Get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected. Talk to a State Farm agent today about combining your home and auto insurance. Today's episode is also brought to you by DrinkWorks Home Bar by Kurek, much like a premium

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That's drinkworks.com and use our code, RingerN-B-A, R-I-N-B-A at checkout. And remember, please enjoy responsibly. Drink-Works Home Bar is currently available in California, New York, Florida, Missouri, Pennsylvania, and Illinois, with more states available for pre-sale today at DrinkWorks.com. Welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k.a. Kevin O. Bomber, A.k.a. Kevin O. Kavanaugh, Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Kavanaugh.

Kevin O. What's going on this Tuesday morning, man? Well, the first thing on the docket is that is now 12 straight wins for the dominant. at Milwaukee Bucks who have moved to 18 and 3 on the season. The best record in the NBA after killing the Knicks last night. Yon has had an easy 29 and 15 in just 22 minutes of play. And they obviously lost some guys to free agency, most exclusively. Malcolm Brogden, who I happened to see play in person last night and is fantastic. They lost Chris Middleton for a time with an injury.

That has mattered not. have been a dominant team so far this year, sitting at 18 and 3, and now 12 in a row. What do we make of this Bucks team just not only keeping on trucking? I think general consensus was they might take a little step back after an unbelievable year last year, but it appears there is no step back, Kevin.

I would say the Yana sent to the Kumpo dunk last night on Julius Randall, when he drove the lane and from outside the restrictive of area just leaped, stretched his arm out like Michael Jordan and Space Jam and dunked the ball over Julius Randall is a symbol for what this Bucks team has done over this 12 game winning streak. It's just really remarkable to watch.

Well, and Randall is no like wimpy guy. He's strong. That's a big strong guy. And he just got bullied all the way to the, all the way to the goal and then got spiked on at the end. I mean, what's going on with Janus right now? is about as crazy a thing as we have seen in a long, long time.

And in fact, so far this season, he is putting up the best PER number that has ever been in NBA history, Kevin. No one has, not Wilt, not Jordan, you know,

and they are the ones that litter that leaderboard in terms of the best PERs ever. And this guy so far is having the best. player efficiency rating season that has happened so far. And you're ready for this one? You're ready to me go ahead and knock you on your ass at the very beginning. Knock me on my ass, Chris. On the very beginning of the pod.

I ain't even waiting. We're not even teasing this out. How about this? Okay. So Will Chamberlain had the record going into this year of the best PER season in NBA history. 31.82, okay? And then the leaderboard is as follows. Wilt, Wilt, Jordan in 8788, LeBron in 0809, and then Jordan, Wilt, LeBron,

and then you have Curry's unbelievable 15-16 season at 31.46. Now, say whatever you want about P.E.R. I think we would all agree that those pretty well line up to amazing offensive seasons that have taken place over the years, and it is a collection of the best players of all time. That being said, that was going into this year, that wilt number, right? If you look at it right now, the greatest PER season in NBA history is Janus and the number he is putting up right now. Now, how about this? The second best PER season in NBA history as of right now is Luca Donchich this season.

The third best PER season in NBA history is James. Harden this season and then fourth would be wilt right now about 20 games into the season we are witnessing the three greatest PER seasons ever recorded in the same season and it would move wilt down to number four if this were to hold this is crazy what is happening with these three it's nuts man it's nuts and it's similar with other advanced stats too can look at something like box plus minus for example on basketball reference.com. their their BPM number has Luca and Janice and Hardin still in the top 10 too. That number doesn't go as far back to the days of Wilts Chamberlain.

And I believe it's since like the 75, 76 seasons because that's when they have good enough box score data for that number. But regardless of your feelings on a single number metric, I have a lot of mixed feelings regardless of like how much you love stats or hate stats, it's at least. a reflection of these remarkable seasons that we've seen from some of these guys so far this year, man, like this MVP race with Janus, with Luca, with Hardin, with LeBron, with Pascal Seacom, whoever else who want to throw in that, we're witnessing some historic basketball right now. And the number at least is an indication of that, even if it's something you don't care a hell

of a lot about, just watch the games. And you will see just the magic that we're witnessing on the court. it does feel like records are just going to be absolutely shattered. With the way that basketball has changed and the scoring being so high and these individual seasons being so crazy, you know, I heard Bill bring this up on a podcast last week where he broached the subject with House. Like, you know, seeing these numbers, are we going to end up looking back on this as an era like we did like we're like the steroid era where it's like all of those. all of those numbers in baseball, it's like, okay, those were numbers that were put up against your peers. And that's the only thing that we can judge you on. But those numbers look silly as compared to nowadays, right? Once upon a time when I was a little kid, I could rattle off

and I would tell you that, you know, the top 10 in home run hitting. And it was, you know, and you would get to guys like Harmon Killebrew or Eddie Matthews. And 500 home runs was such a huge deal and there were like lithographs with there's the 500 club of the guys that have done it and like now i don't want to say it's meaningless but like nobody gives a crap and that i couldn't even tell you who's in the top 10 anymore there's a bunch of guys that have hit over 600 home runs um at this point and you do wonder if the record book is just getting torn apart with the way the basketball is being played right now sure and you know part of that is a a symptom of the fact that league pace is higher than it's ever been since the 85-86 season.

Teams are playing fast. Teams are shooting more threes. Teams are playing more analytic savvy basketball to raise their efficiency and therefore raise their raw scoring numbers, their raw block scoring numbers. And that's what makes it so difficult to compare error to error with, especially if you're looking at points, rebounds, assist, the typical, you know, slash line a lot of people use to talk about players. this is why sometimes like looking at a per possession or per 36 minute number is a bit more valuable,

especially per possession, because you can at least regulate what a player has done between errors with the game being so much faster today than it was just five years ago, way more faster than it was 10 years ago, way faster than it was 20 years ago. The game drastically changes between errors. And the rule changes have changed things dramatically. Of course. Even in the last couple of years, you know, I do a show with Tony Allen every week, who's one of the great defenders, perimeter defenders in NBA history.

And he will constantly tell me, you know, when he goes to games, that the way they call, if you grab a guy on the perimeter, or you put a hand on him or you put an elbow on him, like even you're talking three, four years ago when he was that guy that you would put on the best player on the other team, a lot of that stuff gets called now. He couldn't, he finds that he could not be as physical, as he was even three, four years ago, you know?

Would you like to see defenders get a little bit, getting a little bit more leeway in terms of pushing and tugging and being more aggressive, like the days of Tony Allen and Bruce Bowen and Ron Our Test and guys like that? I do think that defenders being able to be more physical is, I do think it makes for better basketball, right? Is there a difference between more people wanting to, watch it versus what is actually better, right?

Um, is there a way to, is there a way to make basketball better by giving the defense some of their advantages back where it's actually a better product, um, yet it may not be as appealing. So that's, that's the hard part right now, right? Well, it's tough though, because like then, you know, then last night, you have, uh, the sports business journal reporting numbers. that numbers this year are still down in terms of TV ratings. TNT down 23%, ESPN down 20%, a lot of the RSNs, the local sports networks are down as well.

The 13% total just into one month, and it's early, but still, yeah, we did, we did. We covered this and I, you know, look, I stand where I stand on this. I do think, I saw Mark Cuban broached this subject over the weekend, and I thought it was really interesting that he was talking about how, you know, someplace like the NFL or some of these others, that you can, you know, that they are the ones that are kind of married to cable. Yes. You really need to have, you really need to have cable. And that the next frontier of this streaming, which is what everybody did, there's a lot of

people that don't even have cable at their house anymore. Yeah. Right. He's right. He's right. I'm with them. And so I do think that, you know, because you got automatic viewers just by the fact that you, you were one of the channels. that was in everybody's house. But now, in many cases, you're not a channel in everybody's

house anymore. And especially with that younger generation. And I will tell you as somebody with kids, they couldn't tell you anything that's on TV. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Really? It's crazy. It's all on their Kindle. It's all on their iPad. It's all on demand. There is nothing that they, like the same way that I knew that, you know, whatever, what time the Fresh Prince was on or when Saved by the Bell was on. Do they not watch like Nickelodeon or anything like that? But again, it doesn't have to be at a time.

Interesting. Because I mean, I remember always had like tuning into like Dragon Ball Z or like, you know, I'd want to watch certain shows at a certain time every single day or every single week. There is not one thing. The only thing is my son is a massive sports fan. So the only thing is games.

That's it. I would tell you that is the only thing. And how about this? My dad is, how old is my dad? My dad's seven, he turned 73 in the spring. My dad doesn't watch anything live. Nothing. He's 73, Kevin. Everything is Apple TV or taped. You successfully taught him how to use the technology. Well, no, he once he got Apple TV and he got Netflix and he got Hulu and all these different things, like that's what he wants to watch. He's got, he's pretty good at learning. a lot of older people, my parents have had a hard time, especially my dad with some of the technological aspect of navigating to Netflix. It's not hard at all, actually. It's quite easy.

Well, and what's crazy is with my father, my father, how about this? He's now to the point where, say, he'll watch, like, some show that he wants, like, he watches every single St. Louis Blues game. He still lives and dies with them, right? But there was a night over the weekend. I called him, and I was like, oh, my God, did you show? see that and he was like, don't tell me, I've got it taped. He tapes games because, you know, it's eye opening because he ain't on social media and he's watching something that is like on Netflix or something. So there's no like rolling score. He can really be surprised at what happens

in games and tapes them and then watches them whenever he just do it. It's great because he doesn't live on the internet. He doesn't live on social media. He's not watching something that has a rolling scoreboard and so he can actually watch the games later. So anyways, that's the whole next frontier. And I do think Cubans right about that. But I have told you that you spent the last 40 years of NBA basketball promoting superstars. And the three biggest stars by far right now, I would say are LeBron James, Steph Curry, and Kevin Durant. Well, Curry and Duran aren't playing. And LeBron's on the West Coast. And Curry is on the West Coast whenever he does play. And so I do think that's hard. When you're talking about your biggest stars are playing in many cases at 930 Central, 1030 Eastern.

I think that, you know, we saw the ratings go down last year. And I do think there's a LeBron effect to that. And you also have even the guys that you were promoting that are in the central and eastern time zone. You know, the Knicks don't have anybody now that people are going out of their way to watch. And it's a big market. The Bulls really don't have anybody that you're going out of your way to watch. So some of the big market teams don't have huge stars. And then Zion Williamson got hurt.

you know, and they put him on TV, what, 40 times or whatever. Or you could even mention somebody, you could even mention someone like Kyrie Irving, one of the most popular jerseys, one of the most popular sneakers. And right now he's not playing either. Yeah, I'm just saying, I don't think it's the product. I don't think it's the basketball that has hurt the ratings. I think there's a lot of mitigating factors. Yeah, I'm, I'm with you.

It's put it this way. It's not just one thing, no matter typically whatever big issue you're talking about socially or or with the business like the NBA. It's never just one thing. But it's a lot of these factors put together that combine into just the fact that I think the biggest one though is what Cuban touched on. The fact that these games are on cable. They are not on CBS.

They're not on Fox. They're not on NBC. Everybody has those channels if they have a basic cable TV plan. And the only things they would have to worry about is NFL network. And the games aren't even on NFL network on Thursday. nights anymore. They're on Fox this season. I tell you this, if I'm the NBA, if I'm the powers that be, and I could have a redo, I'd go back and I put the MAVs on 40 times instead of the Pelicans, you know? I mean, if you can have a redo, because you give out that schedule

and you give out that national TV schedule based on what you think is going to happen, but all anybody's talking about, like so far, Janus and what he's doing night floor. And Luca, Luca is the thing. I mean, but how many of their games that if you don't have league pass are you watching? Honestly, like how many times you get in to see him? And he is exposed to a monster national audience. All us basketball heads are watching it and are aware of how ridiculous what he is doing so far is. But it's not like he's on center stage all the time.

And if you could have a redo on that, certainly he would be one that you would be putting front and center to promote your product, right? Well, you know, it's, you're right, but also, like, you can, you can get the idea of how great he's been just by watching the game on social media by looking at his highlights on Instagram, looking at scrolling through Twitter and seeing everybody talking about him and the videos and the articles that are, are created about him. You can get an idea even without seeing the games, too. And so that's part of that. But that doesn't help the ratings is what I'm saying. I know, no, I know. It doesn't help the ratings, but people still know. It's just.

Because that's what happens. of college. I mean, how many times did you go out of your way to watch Zion or watch Trey Young when he was kicking? Or even like back in the day when it was, you know, you knew Jimmer Ferdetz's BYU team was going to be on and he was putting up that crazy season or whatever it would be. I mean, I go out of my way all the time to watch college players all the time. And that's just not, right? In the NBA, it's not the same. It's just not. And I do think that West Coast thing hurts the most. I do. Sure. Having the biggest stars over there. And, obviously a couple of them being out.

I saw a team that has been very hot, the Pacers, who I bailed on early, not bailed on, but I just, I thought that maybe. You dumped them. You dumped them. I said that, look, it was my, it was our, what was it, our overreaction at the very beginning of the season, and I said they're going to miss. I underestimated their depth last year and guys that they are going to miss. And look, there's six plays right now in the Eastern Conradict.

conference, but I saw them in person last night. T.J. Warren has totally found his bearings with that team and has proven to be a guy that can play totally within a winning concept. Progden has been fantastic, and they've gotten Miles Turner back now, and so they got Turner and Sabonis, who are a formidable front line that most of the league have a lot of trouble matching up with. Jeremy Lamb has been very good for them. I mean, he's only gotten to play in 11 games, but he's averaged 17 a game so far this

year for them. And they got some guys off the bench that can do some stuff. And just they are a totally solid team that are going to be, you know, they're going to win a bunch of games. They'll be well over 500. And they'll be a hard out when it comes to the playoffs. I don't know if they have the, you know, the playoff performer, the I can take this game over and drop 30 on you guy. But they got a bunch of good players, and they are just decidedly good. That's what they are. They're good.

They fit your eye. They don't play guys who suck. No, they really don't. Yeah. They really don't. I mean, you know, it's like T.J. McConnell and Justin Holiday and Doug McDermid and the other holiday kid. And that's kind of who they bring off the bench.

And those guys are just like, certainly when they're mixed in with the starters, you know. And then they got those guys. I mean, they got guys like Sabonis can go big and Brogdon can go big and war. can go big. Every once in a while, Jeremy Lamb will have a really big night. So, I mean, they got enough, but I mean, they're just solid. They're a solid team. Like, I mean, I watched them play last night. There wasn't, there was like a sub bonus dunk that was pretty nice. But other than that, you're just watching that game. And you look up at the end and it's like, the experience of watching the Pacers is like, wow, Brogden had like, you know, whatever,

19, 8, and 6. Like, I didn't even notice. Because like, there's nothing spectacular. that takes place. It's just them playing solid team basketball. Well, everything you're saying, I can't help but think about an article that I saw yesterday on SB Nation by Caitlin Cooper. And she wrote about this great piece about how Sabonis is such a tremendous screener. Just the little intricacies of his game that make him such a formidable force

and springing loose a Malcolm Brogden in the pick and roll or Jeremy Lamb, the angles he takes and just how fundamentally sound he is as a screener, how he is effective on the role, and the little things that he does crashing the offensive boards to get second chances for Indiana, it's those little things that are in a way for a lot of fans, not exciting to watch that help make this team so good, despite not having a little deeper,

despite having other guys be out like Turner missing time, it's the little things that this team does that keeps them in it, that keeps them afloat, without their best player, Victor Ola Dippo. And for this team, you do hope Ola Dippo, when he does return, is himself at some point soon, because they have the pieces on this roster to at least be super competitive in the Eastern Conference, but they lack that guy that you're talking about. They lack that 30 point per game scorer who can go out and get a ton of buckets for you

against a set defense in a one-on-one situation. and Ola Depot the last time we saw him healthy, he showed that he can be that type of player. He had his struggles in the playoffs that Indiana lost, but that's part of the growing pains for a first-time player who is the go-to guy in the postseason. And with any of it, he has Brogden now by his side. And I think Brogden, we've talked about him before, Chris,

Brogden has been outstanding. And I think with him, his two-way play, the role he can settle into when Oledibo comes back as the complimentary go-to guy who can step up in times of need but is more or less going to be cutting and spot up shooting and defending his ass off. They could have a stellar back court and a stellar front court with Turner Sabonis and then a bunch of guys in between you can fill the blanks. This team could be really, really good if Ollipos himself. I agree with you. So it's very possible that they are adding their best player into the mix and help is on the way. regarding Sabonis, so much of what I watched Mark Asaw do for so many years is Sabonis,

which is catch the ball at the elbow, turn and face up, and he can bang that shot every time. But if you come out on him, he can find a cutter or he can kick it out to somebody shooting at open three. I mean, I watched him have eight assists last night. He is awesome. I love Sabonis. I really do. I think he is just a fantastic player who people don't get to see as much, but he is so good at so many things. And he rebounds his ass off, too. He's always in the mix. He guards when, you know,

like, you know, so many of these guys, we pick apart, we say, oh, Yokic is an amazing passer, but I mean, his defense, oh my goodness, or maybe he looks out of shape. Like this guy, there's no, like, there's no grand flaw in him. He can dribble, he can pass, he can shoot, makes his teammates better, rebounds, plays defense every time down the court. I love him. I love him. I hope he makes the All-Star team. He might as a front court guy. Yeah, he might, he might, yeah. He's putting up a big season. He's 18 and 13 right now. That is, those are, now that you mention it. We're, we're about a month away. I know. From when the, when the NBA is going to send out their ballots for people to vote for All-Star,

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All right, so while it has worked well for the Pacers, and their kind of new look team and having to do without Eladipo, what do we make of what has happened with the jazz? They have, they gotten popped a few times. So they got, they got, you know, just run out in Toronto. And then they were down huge last night at halftime. The ending score looks a little better than it was. I mean, they're down 18 to the Sixers.

Conley, who has already struggled a lot this year, went out with an injury. and he has really struggled for them. And I'll be honest with you, I saw them in person on what night? Was it Friday night? So this is before they went. And I mean, Royce O'Neill hit a dagger in that game. But, I mean, they were playing the Grizzlies who have one of the worst records. And it was a nip-tuck game for most of the game.

Like, I just, their starters are good. But, man, they really need Conley to be awesome. And he has not been because they go to that bench. Joe Ingalls has been miserable and he was miserable in the playoffs last year so this is just a continuation and they bring off Jeff Green Emmanuel Moodye

you know these guys have been losing players Dante Exum Dante Exum looks fat to me he just looks way out of shape yeah and Ed Davis who I liked in free agency shots fired

he's been bad for them wow shots fired I was not expecting you to say Dante Exam looks fat. He did. He did. I mean, what do you want me to say? I saw him in person. Oh my God. Look, they lost, you know, not like all stars, but guys that are really good role players. Jay Crowder, Derek. Like, you look at their rotation in the playoffs last year, Jay Crowder, Derek favors Ricky Rubio. And, you know, Conley's just, he's really strong. struggled and he

that's who really they've replaced him with they've replaced Crowder favors Rubio with Conley Green Moodye and it's like it hasn't because Conley has been bad

that hasn't been a good trade out. I just looked up I just Googled Dante XM weight and from from Andy Larson preseason Dante XM went from being

listed at 666190 to 6.6-214. I told you. And not And not only this, hey, he shrunk too. He gained 24 pounds and shrunk. Okay. Have you seen him? Yeah.

I have watched Utah recently. It's nice to see Ex-M on the court, even though he does not look good. He does not look like the Dante X-M that I loved before the 24-20s. No, you're used to a long, slender, defensive-minded athlete. And he is, he looks like Boris D. Oh, come on. He does. And Boris Dio was wait.

Maybe he's trying to honor him. They're both from France. Maybe he's trying to honor Dio. But Dio is obviously an infinitely better player. XM is just like, boy, you're firing shots of XM OVA. I like that jazz team. I hated the Moodye and green signings, but whatever. I loved the Conley and Ed Davis signings.

And Connolly's just not been good for them. And that's the thing. What's wrong with him, Chris? Come on. That's the scoop. What's wrong with Mike Conley? What's the scoop? I really don't know. I do think that there is, I think that when you have played for 12, 13 years of your career and you've been the guy.

No, I'm saying you've been the guy. The ball has been in his hands. Come on. It has. This is no excuse. No, I'm not making an excuse. Listen, you're going to learn as you get older. There are reasons and there are excuses.

And you can decide if it's a reason or an excuse. but I would tell you it is a reason why he has struggled to adjust is because he has been in control of the offense and he has been the guy that with 10 seconds left on the shot clock, he's never played with anybody that can dribble for God's sakes, much less being off the ball so much, which he has. And it's a different type of team than he has ever been a part of. He has been playing pick and roll with a big that, you know, rolled for many years and now pops out in March. at Gasol. And Rudy Gobert is, he ain't popping out. He ain't ever shooting the ball past six feet.

And so I just think there's adjustments to make. I think with Conley, I look at this number is what worries me most. He's shooting 48% within three feet of the rim. For his career in Memphis, he was at 58%.

That's a number that scares me. A guy who I don't seem to think he has as much explosive with his first step or around the rim. He just looks like a guy that doesn't have that same pop he had before. Not that he was ever dunking on guys or anything like that. But he was able to elevate it, at least able to elevate enough around the rim to score efficiently in that area.

That's a number that scares me. And, you know, you and I texted about this last week, though, but like, he's still getting only like three or four, four fewer pick and roll ball handling possessions per game. It's not a drastic drop off. It's not from 17. to three, it's from 17 to 14. I would also tell you that, now, again, this is just my opinion. I would be interested, and maybe it would, maybe this will fly in my face because I

haven't looked this up. I'd be interested in seeing what his numbers are when he's on the court without Rudy Gobert because Gobert, he's never standing at the three point line, right? There's always somebody in that lane, always. There's always somebody in the lane. And therefore, there are always defenders in the lane. and when things had spread out more in Memphis and Fisdale moved Mark Gassau

all the way away from the basket things changed and things opened up and you saw a different offensive Mike Conley because he's a diminutive guy but if you're always driving into an area where their people are, it's a different game and maybe that would just fly in my face maybe he's not better when they bring in their backup

I suppose their backup whoever they play is probably like Tony Brad some and whoever they bring. But I don't think that Gobert is a great big man fit for Conley. That's what I would say. For it's worth, Conley with Gobert off the floor is shooting 3 of 18 from 3, 6 of 32 from 2 point range. So it's only 106 minutes, but that's, yeah.

And that's like the type of thing that I think there's something to that. Like, you're right. Like it's probably a difficult adjustment for him to have a big and a soul that can pop or roll that can short roll and pass out of that going to a guy like Gobert who is primarily a lob threat. A loud explosive finisher around the rim, though he can finish with touch two, of course. But the thing is is how is that not something that can be good for him though? Gobert is one of the best. I know. The best.

But that's never been. Conley. Conley does not throw lobs. Like even with Jared Jackson last year, I bet he threw, I bet he threw less than five. I'm not kidding. I bet Mike Connolly threw less than 20 alley-ups and the whole time he was here. I feel like, I feel like we're coming up with, what if he's just gotten old? He's a guy that had an Achilles injury two years ago that required surgery to alleviate the pressure off the Achilles. And now last year he was great. But this year, 32 years old, you know, yes. it could be situationally based.

Maybe it's tough adjusting everything. Like family, adjusting to a new state on the other side of the country. There's a lot of factors here. He can't breathe. He can't breathe. It's also possible. He actually, you know what?

It's also possible that he's unhealthy. He actually did mention that to me when I saw him. He was like, you know that whole thing? They talk about the altitude? He's like, that's real. He's like, even when we go on the road and then we go back, I still have to like adjust. like every time.

Wow. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I just think there is an adjustment period that goes on. He's too good of a player. Yeah, he is. He is.

He is. And I hope to God he does figure it out though because I've loved, I've loved watching this guy for years. Obviously, like you've seen him up close for years. But this guy for so long in Memphis was, I think, one of the most underrated pick and roll playmakers in the league. His ability to create for others, his ability to score himself to be a guy who's versatile can score off ball, off screens, can spot up, unselfish player who played hard defensively. Like there's nothing to dislike about Mike Conley as a point guard. And the idea of him in this Utah offense at the time I wrote like, this makes them contenders.

And when you think about what he could do for Mitchell, what he could become with Gobert, that has not happened so far this year. It's been the utter opposite. And so much of that just comes down to Conley, just not being good. But I hope whatever it is, whether he's just not healthy now, whether it's the altitude, whether it's the system, whether it's everything together. Like we said with TV ratings, it's never just one thing. With Conley, it's probably not just one thing in this case either. And I hope, I hope whatever it is, he's able to figure it out because this team,

without him being himself, is not going to be able to reach the heights that a lot of people think they can. Yeah, well, and I was very high on them because of that. And he has just not played up to anywhere near his standard. And the other thing is, like I said, Kevin, I don't like their bench. I don't. I mean, I just went, I, no, I, Jeff Green, Moodye A, Exum, no, no. I don't like Moodye A. There's no, there's no reason to like those guys. And Jeff Green, Jeff Green, we've been through him before.

Yeah, and XM I just told you. I mean, so. I still can't get over that. I don't, and Ingalls has been awful. And he was terrible last year during the playoffs. Like, I can't believe that the guy that emasculated Paul George two years ago is as bad as he is. But he has been bad, man. Like, hey, we argued about whether he looks like a basketball player.

He doesn't talent-wise right now. He's been dreadful. Just dreadful. Yeah, just to give your statement some context, he's shooting only 31% from three after shooting over 40% for his career, scoring only seven points per game, a sister down naturally because he's not touching the ball as much. His numbers are down across the board in terms of the third.

efficiency. And I wonder how much of that is with him also adjusting to not being a guy who has the ball on his hands as often. Yeah, I mean, he was bad last year during the playoffs. And he did not have a great season last year. He shot the hell out of the ball, though. And he is still a good playmaker off the bench for that team. Or not off the bench, but in a secondary role, I should say, alongside Mitchell and Rubio. All right, Kevin, we'll get right back to it. Today. show brought to you by Stance. Do you remember when Sox used to be the worst thing you can get at Christmas? Well, times have changed because Stance has completely changed the reputation of socks.

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Let's wrap back around because we started this show talking about the Milwaukee Bucks, who are 18 and 3 in of 1 12 in a row. And we survey the Eastern Conference and think about what these other teams bring to the table. Do you look at it now like the Bucks show? be the overwhelming favorite. If I gave you a team right now and I said, all right, Kevin, you got to knock off the bucks when it comes springtime, what team would you choose? Toronto.

Interesting. You are a believer. They've won seven in a row and Siakum's been out of his mind. I think Toronto, first of all, I'm writing about them for Wednesday on the ringer, so check that out when it's out. and I think a lot of the stuff that I hit in that article are sort of touch on what we're discussing here because they have the ability to play so many different styles

with their personnel. And you think about what they've done so far this year with Lowry having missed 11 of 19 games. I'm entering Tuesday night against Miami, a big game for them. They have versatility in the lineups that they can play. They have a number of guys that they can throw at Yannis at Akumpo. they have long defenders, Pascal Seacum, Ogey and Nobie.

They have gritty guys that are going to come off the bench that have been playing while Ibaka's been out like Hollis Jefferson or even Chris Bruchet, who has looked really, really good and limited minutes for them. Ibaka's back now. Lowry could be back tonight on Tuesday against Miami. This is a team that on the offensive end and the floor, they are not necessarily super dynamic. They lack that Kauai and Leonard player that.

obviously led them to the finals last year, but it's actually their defense this year that makes them so formidable. They are number one in defense so far this season. They are one of the most versatile teams in the league in the way in which they defend opponents. Sometimes you'll see them blitz picking rolls with Markersoll. Sometimes you'll see them have Marcusole drop to the paint. Sometimes you'll see them aggressively trap or double team on the post.

Other times they're just happy to play one-on-one and stay home. against shooters. They are unpredictable, and they have a lot. I just very smart, intelligent, savvy players that are also athletic and long, get their hands in the passing lanes. They're tough to score against. And if you're thinking about the type of team that you need to defeat the bucks, I think they check a lot of those boxes with their personnel.

All right. So how about this one, Kevin? I'm going to hit you with this. Hold on to yourself now because this could be devastating. So I was thinking about this the other day And you know how Kauai gets the Jordan comps sometimes Like that's how there's a lot of things Especially I know where you're going with this range or whatever

All right in in 9293 season The Bulls end up winning the title That's the year they beat the Phoenix Suns And then Jordan it walks away Okay The next year the 93-94 Bulls come back They end up losing in the conference semis to the Knicks in seven games.

But they won 55 games that year, the year without Jordan, and their unbelievable player, certainly for the year, was Scotty Pippin. And it's very reminiscent in Toronto right now, is it not? Because if you fancy Kauai

as the Jordan character in this scenario, Jordan walks away, and then this is the moment that Pippin become, you know, the lead dog on a team that could win 55 games and play in a, you know, they're one game away from playing in an Easter conference finals for goodness sakes. Without Michael Jordan. I think that we became conditioned to if you lose a guy like Kauai, you know, you're dead.

But instead, this is a lot more like the 93-94 son, uh, 93-94 bulls where, you know, they lose Jordan, but that was Pippin's time to flourish. and Siakum, you know, it almost lines up. If you want to say Kauai's Jordan and Seacom's Pippin, because here's Pippin's moment. Well, and the interesting thing with that Bulls team, you have guys like Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong that stepped up their play. You know, it was primarily Scotty Pippen,

but it was other guys too. So now it's Fred Van Vleet. Yes, exactly. Now it's Fred Van Vleet, who with Lowry, again, missing 11 of 19 games so far the season, Van Vleet, if I were voting for all, All-Stars today in the East. I think I'd have him on that.

He's been outstanding for that team. I mean, he's playing 38 minutes per game, leading the NBA. He's putting up 19.7 assists defending his ass off. Van Vleet's been awesome for Toronto. So you factor in his leap that he's made this year. Obviously, we've talked about Siakam plenty. Everybody's talked about Seacom. I'd have him fifth in my MVP vote right now.

They've gotten the contributions they've needed from their role players. Never mind the fact that, like I said, Hollis Jefferson, Boucher, with Ibaka out, these guys have stepped up their games, especially in the defense event. I remember, I think it was a week or two into the season. Nick Nurse was like, Hollis Jefferson and Stanley Johnson aren't going to play

if they don't play defense the way we need to play defense. And Hollis Jefferson has been outstanding. Part of some of those bench units together, especially with Boucher and Hollis Jefferson on the floor together, have just been really hard to score against. Terrence Davis as an undrafted rookie coming in, getting minutes, being productive on both ends of the floor. Masayu Jiri deserves so much credit for finding these guys, Van Vleet, Terence Davis, these late round picks, say, Norman Powell type, and Pascal Seacum and then Nick Nurse, turning them into players on the court. This is a team from top down with ownership to front office to coaching to players.

They are top class. And I think moving forward the season, you want to see Seacom continue to make improvements as a playmaker for those situations where he can't get buckets and he can't score. And you want to see Lowry stay healthy after he's had some difficulty staying healthy so far this season. But this team, I underrated them into the season because I, in a way, I think I overrated the loss of Kauai. And by that I mean, this was still a top defense. with or without Kauai. I don't think anybody could have seen these leaps coming in the way that they have.

Anybody could have said Seacom would be get better. I think you may have sounded crazy if you were to say he would become an MVP. And that's what's happening right now. And because you have a guy in Seacom who, real or not, I say it's real, Seaccombe right now is playing like a top 10 player, maybe like the ninth or 10th best player in the league. and you have a guy at that level who puts you on the cusp of being a necessary guy to make you a finals contender. He's not a top three, top four, top five guy. But when you have somebody like this, you get a shot.

And the rest of that team is so good and so deep and so versatile with the best head coach in the league and Nick Nurse, they get a shot, man. They really do. You said this off the cuff. And as you were talking, I was trying to jot down as fast as I can. You know, you're probably going to have the vote leaders, you know, when the fans vote, probably, interestingly enough, Kyrie and Kemba. I think Simmons maybe. Talk about fan voting, right? Yeah, because all these other guys, you know, Van Fleet is Van Fleet going to get in?

And I agree with you, deserving. You're talking Brogden, Trey Young, you know, does he get in over Brad Beale and Zach Levine guys that are putting up big numbers on losing teams? you know, probably should. I just don't know where he fits in all of that. Beal should be in. Okay. So he won't. But does he get in over?

I mean, listen, Kyrie, Kemba, Brogden, Trey are certains, I would think. Beal,

as you say, certain, that gets me five. I mean, Simmons, Levine, Van Vleet, you're picking between those three,

you probably, I think me and you would say Van Vleet deserves it to be there, right? Well, yeah, it's, it's it's tight and also ben simmons could get in as a forward as well depending on how the vote

is structured or whatever i mean i'm i'm not saying that as a joke i mean it seriously it's it's it's like with with the all-nba vote you're able to put ben simmons as a forward or as a guard i don't know how it'll be an all-star this year all right last thing speaking of forward there's a forward that came back and then he won nba player of the week oh boy first the Western Conference and social media imploded yesterday once Carmelo Anthony was named Western Conference Player of the Week, especially after it's a week where like James Hardens going for like 60 points in three quarters or whatever he's doing. Like, what are they doing? Like, no offense. Look, and I get that it's a story. I get that it got people talking, but what are they

doing? He didn't even have that great of a week. I don't know. I've never cared about Player of the Week before. I'm not about to start caring now. You don't care. I don't care at all. I really, I could not care any less. I mean that sincerely. I don't care.

I've never cared about player of the week, Chris. I get those NBA communications, notifications, and then Woj and Shams and everybody tweets it out afterwards. I don't care. I don't care. Who cares? What have we ever cared about player of the week?

Well, we cared this week because it was Carmelo. Why? Why is a society do we do we look for things to get pissed off about? Well, that wasn't looking to get pissed off about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, people. It's like, who cares? Just let it go.

Whatever. No, no, it's only because it's Carmelo, because it signifies that like, hey, I know. This is like a giant middle finger to every NBA fan. Right, like, oh, we're going to give it to Carmelo. Like, what? Come on now.

Right? Because, hey, look, they want the, they got the buzz. They got the buzz. And they got people talking about it. I'll give them that. Hey, and you know what, in fairness, they have won three games in a row. And Portland, who is, I think they're a game and a half back out of eighth place right now. You know, they were looking dead in the water.

He has at least helped them win some games. Yeah, I was going to say, you said he didn't even have that great of a week. It's like, he had a good week. It was good. Carmel has been good. Camelo's averaging eight. Yeah, yeah, the team had a good week too. Yeah, it just shows you, right?

You're three games away from being back in the mix. They won three in a row. The record still stinks, but they're game and a half behind the Sons and the T-Wolves who either of them are hard to believe in over the long haul. It's been cool to see Carmelo and he hasn't necessarily shot well out of it yet, but it's been nice to see them using Carmelo on the pick and roll as a screener often. He's shooting out of the pick and pop.

He's rolling to the rim sometimes. It's fun to watch. It's cool to see Carmelo used in this way. he's still, you know, jacking up mid-range, still posting up a lot. But I think that's by necessity right now in Portland's offense, partially by design. It's not like he's stepping outside of himself to do that. But he is playing his role and doing the things that they need him to do,

trying on defense. There's still, he's still not great, but he's trying. And he's setting screens, rolling to the rim, doing things that we haven't seen a lot from him in the past. It's cool to see that. I'm happy to see Carmelo playing well through six games, and I hope it continues. All right.

Last thing, I did not prep you for this, but just answer honestly. Is there any, because the ACCC Big Ten challenges going on at a bunch of other college tournaments or kind of in the college tournament season. I know Michigan and Louisville are playing against each other. That's number four versus number one tonight.

Also Duke, Michigan State, both those games are going on tonight. Are there any college players that you are attempting to go out of your way to watch recently or over the course of the next few weeks? Honestly, I think the last week, or so, Chris, I've been focusing a lot on what's happening with international

prospects. Lemel ball, R.J. Hampton. I think right now I'm sort of starting that pivot. It's towards back towards college basketball. I just, you know, there's been some good games. We saw Ball versus Hampton last week. That was a good game to really tune into.

With college basketball this year, this is really the time to start doing it. You're right. Well, it's interesting because I was perusing Gavoni and Them's thing on ESPN yesterday. Their new mock. Yeah, where they did the new mock.

And the thing that stood out to me right off the bat was, boy, this is really guard heavy. I mean, there was only a few, there was only a few big guys involved. And I do think that the way the NBA, you are seeing the transition, you know, and I talked about this a couple months ago. And I'm watching these games and I'm thinking of myself every night that maybe it has just totally flipped where the transition from college to the NBA for like a guard or smaller player, that used to, especially point guards, it used to take a couple of years and that nobody was good immediately. But now we are seeing not only good, but historic numbers being put up

by first and second year players and that maybe the transition is actually a lot harder for the big guy now coming out of college, because we have seen some big guys that it has taken a little bit longer because of the way the game is played right now. And when you see the success of Luca and Trey Young and these guys, while big guys were taken ahead of them in some cases, I do think that it's unsurprising that you're seeing a board littered with Anthony Edwards from Georgia and Lamello Ball and R.J. Hampton and even the little kid, the maxi kid from Kentucky and on and on. Or Cole Anthony from North Carolina, since you mentioned the ACC tournament, Cole Anthony potential top five pick, a likely top five pick.

Yeah. And yeah, this year's class is super guard heavy, which was one of the focuses in my preseason preview of the draft class. It's like there's so many teams that already have a point guard or at least a guy that they want to invest in. And yet we have a draft class coming in in which it is guard heavy like you said, Chris. And I do wonder if maybe this was something brought up to me by a couple of executives

and agents before I wrote that piece last month, does this mean this is a year in which teams can target a rotation playmaker on the cheap, whether it's in the lottery or middle of the first round or even late first round, where you can get a guy entering a year in which there's not a lot of talent at playmaker in free agency. And maybe you can find that guy in the draft instead, whether it's a high pick or not to get a rotation playmaker for your own team. Yeah, to your point, four of the 10 that are ranked on ESPN's top 100 players that they

have updated, four of the 10 are point guards. Cole Anthony, North Carolina, RJ Hampton, was playing overseas. Nico Mannion at Arizona, Maxi at Kentucky. If you want to slide him at shooting guard, you can. Oh, and then Halliburton, the kid that Charks just wrote about. You mentioned lamello ball, too. Oh, yeah, and Lamello. Jeez, Louise, that is a bunch, huh? A bunch of guards, very, very guard heavy, which makes it fun to watch. And there's still a couple of big guys.

Obviously, Wiseman's got the suspension. That OB Toppin kid really made an impression for Dayton. Looks good. Yeah, over the weekend playing. All right, next up for you is you say you got a Raptors article coming out. Raptors on Wednesday, yep. Cannot wait. Kevin, I will talk to you on Friday.

Sweet. See you, man. Thanks to everybody for listening to another episode of The Mismatch. If you dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars.