The Ringer NBA Show - Giannis Trade Rumors Brewing! Plus, Joe Mazzulla Wants … Fighting? | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

Howard Beck and Raja Bell fire up the mics with ‘Ringer’ senior NBA writer Michael Pina to kick off the show by discussing the current disaster that is the Milwaukee Bucks and how other teams are preparing for a potential Giannis trade demand (6:45). Then, they get into Michael Pina’s piece on the Ringer dot com, Six Overreactions to the First Week of the NBA Season, pointing out the one Michael regrets most and the one Raja loves (27:32). Later, they talk of Joe Mazzulla’s wild quote that the NBA should allow players to fight again (36:31). Hosts: Howard Beck and Raja Bell Guest: Michael Pina Producer: Brian H. Waters Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Tara Palmieri. I'm Puck Senior Political Correspondent and host of Somebody's Got to win. Brought to you by The Ringer and Spotify. The 2024 election has been upended with Joe Biden off the ticket and Donald Trump facing a new challenger, Kamala Harris. If you want to hear what the insiders are really saying about the race, join me Tuesdays and Thursdays as I break it all down with lawmakers, journalists, and political strategists. We'll go deeper than the headlines to the anxieties at the highest levels of power. And of course, we'll chew over all the hot political gossip as we head into this historic election. Be sure to follow. Somebody's got to win at Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the real ones.

Howard Beck, Senior writer for the ringer. That is Rajabell. And joining us today on a Friday for all the NBA festivities. And my God, are there a lot of NBA festivities? Our pal senior writer, Michael Pina, Pina, thanks for hopping in with me and Raj. listeners, it's a Friday. We're going to try to have guests on Fridays as often as possible.

Might be our talented friends from the Ringer Network. Ringer.com. Might be others, coaches, players, whoever. But yeah, we're back to twice a week. Tuesdays and Fridays all season. My God, guys, there's a shit ton of stuff going on.

Including on my mad dash to get to this computer so that we could do a podcast. I saw that Joel and B. meeting with the media for the first time in like a month. Thanks. Thanks for chatting, Joel. How are you guys doing?

Slow motion here, man. Coming off a Halloween. I mean, you know, we still got one that we have to take around. The older ones kind of do their thing. But yeah, man, I'm chilling. Slow morning. Pina, your kid's too small trick or treating. But did you dress the baby up?

We dressed them up. Yes. Little Wesley was a ketchup packet. and Maya was a stack of French fries. So we had fun. It was great. We did go trick-or-treating, but they didn't really get out of the stroller. It was just an excuse for me to go grab candy around the neighborhood.

And it was very successful. Nice. How old are they, Michael? Two and ten months. Oh, man. Yeah, that's good stuff. Yeah, it's good stuff. Good way to put it.

It's great when they're at an age when, A, you can just put them in whatever you want and there's no complaints. There are no position to argue. And B, you can have all the candy because, like, two-year-old's not scarf and all that. Baby's not having that. 100%. It was phenomenal. It was terrific, yeah.

Great stuff. Good job. That's some good dadding right there. So, guys, I was all teed up with the last couple of days thinking I was going to come in with a fiery rant about some, so well, Joel and Bede stuff. But one, we have late breaking news that he spoke to the media today, and I have not been able to see it all. And two, who knows, he might actually play in the next few days. So I'm going to save that, plus we talked a lot about Embed on the Tuesday show.

So I'm going to table that. I do want to talk about Michael Pina's piece about some early overreactions across his early overreactions. I should point out. I definitely want to talk about the wild interview that Joe Mazula gave this week and that Katie Baker and I wrote about on ringer.com. but speaking of overreactions or potential overreactions, I want to start off with the Janus deal, the Janus stuff, the Buck stuff. It's a freaking mess.

Another meltdown last night, they lose to the Grizzlies. And hours before that, guys, we got our first major trade rumor, trade rumbling, seeds of a rumbling, something of the season. My pal Bill Ryder over at CBS Sports reported that teams are preparing for a potential Janus under the Cumbo trade demand or maybe just preparing for the bucks to get desperate enough to do it.

It's not clear exactly what, but Bill said this, Bill Ryder said this, quote, there's a rising sense of confidence that if things go badly in Milwaukee, that Janus could be available for trade could force his way out of Milwaukee in the next year. He also said he wrote that teams are circling and hopeful, or excuse me, that was a Western Conference team executive telling Bill Ryder, teams are circling and hopeful. And another executive saying, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened by the trade deadline. Guys, this feels really, really early for all this. And yet

at the same time, not because it's not about just this last week. It's about where the bucks have been over the last couple of years. So, Raja, first thing that hit you when you saw or heard this, or I mean, Pina wrote some overreactions earlier this week.

Janus being traded was not one of them. but is it too soon for us to all hit the panic button on the bucks? Yeah, my first reaction was like, Jesus Christ, that's where we are already. Like, we're there five games in. And then, and then, you know, Bill Ryder is my guy. So I work with Bill for a long time. He's a friend of mine. So if he's saying it, I mean, they're rumblins out there.

And then I guess it's not too early. But that, my first reaction is Jesus. This is early. And so I'm inclined to take that stance five games in. but the more I think about the bucks, the more I think five games, even though it's not a huge sample size this year, I think it's enough to indicate that they haven't really,

they haven't fixed whatever it is they was fully off. You would think that two players, and I would just use their two stars, Janice and Dame. Let's say for whatever reason last year, it didn't look like it worked great. Dame had a lot of stuff going on. Sometimes it's harder than you think to integrate two stars into a lineup in an effective, efficient way.

I'll give you the year last year. But like, we're coming out this year and it should, you should start to see the fruits of it. You should start to see the complimenting of one another. You should start to see them playing off one another in a way that would project, you know, and you don't yet. And so I'm, I, you could be worried about that. There's something there. There's something to that.

Pina, sometimes we do this based on record alone, and it might be an overreaction because, you know what, a team can go one and four at any other stretch in the season, and it's not necessarily an all-out panic. So I try not to overreact to the first week of the season based on just a record, but like, I think this is more about, and I've said this about the Nuggets, too, to use this phrase, it's more about the fundamentals. And if the fundamentals actually seemed a little suspect anyway, like, what have you seen so far from the bucks, Michael, that would either support the idea that it's panic time already

or that we should all calm our asses down? I wouldn't say it's panic time, but I also wouldn't say it's time to calm down and everyone should wait this out. I think this team is bad. You know, they rank 28th in net rating. Their offense is atrocious. Their defense is completely incapable. Teams are just hunting Dame Lillard possession after possession. I mean, last night you saw Scotty Pippin Jr. enter the game, and they're bringing him into the action with John Morant, and Dame is just completely helpless. You have Cam Thomas throwing an Alleyoop off, Cam Thomas, throwing an Alleyub Lob off the backboard to Nick Claxton. Like, teams are just punking the Milwaukee Bucks this season. And it's all happening with, yes, Chris Middleton's been out,

hasn't played yet, of course, but it's all happening with Janus statistically having a marvelous season. And he is, you know, getting to the rim at will, dunking on everybody, just being his physically dominant self. But the chemistry, as Rajah just alluded to, the chemistry between him and Dame just is not there at all. And, you know, Doc Rivers is staggering them already. I think you need to play these two as much as possible and develop a two-man game that you can go to in crunch time or just improve throughout the season and have it evolve. And we haven't really seen that. And so that's discouraging and a little worrying. But I'm not going to say they should look to trade this dude yet. He's still in his prime and one of the best players alive. But it's

at the same time, I just don't see them like winning a championship or contending for a championship as currently built. Staggering is staggering. Like at this point, no, it is. It's staggering. Like you would, I mean, yeah, man, if we have three guys like that, maybe we figure out how to stagger them. You have two dudes that, you know, are supposed to be a winning combo at the championship level. Our objective isn't staggering them early in the season. Like that's that we're not worried about that. So that in and of itself is staggering. Like we're looking to put, hey, we're going to force feed this.

If I got to run you two and pick and roll 75% of the games and we lose them all, I don't give a shit. We're going to figure this out. So forgive me. But the fact that we're, you know, that's what we're talking about and they're trying to figure out how to stagger them, that in and of itself is very concerned. Roger, if I were going to, as I'm sometimes prone to do, say, ah, no big deal. Let's all calm down a little bit. Like, let's, let's apply some nuance here.

If I were going to try to like make a more optimistic case or at least a case for not freaking out yet in trading people. I would say, hey, listen, Dame just got there a year ago, and it was under really strange circumstances at the last minute. And then they fired your buddy, Hadrian Griffin, and then they brought in Doc. And this is Doc's first training camp with them. And Chris Middleton is still out. And they've got some new pieces that they're incorporating. Like, you know, chemistry takes time.

That would be like my reasonable pushback. I'd say, you know what chemistry takes time? And even for Janus and Dame with their first training camp under Doc, shouldn't we kind of. back off. Is that reasonable or is that just like Pollyannish at this point? No, I think I think to some degree it's reasonable because I'm not, I'm with you and Michael. I'm not going to like, I'm not panicking, right? But because, you know, this is five games and, you know, maybe you'll tell me that there was something going on behind the scenes through this five game sample or six games, whatever it is that, that, that I couldn't account for. And, you know, through 10, we look different.

But I do think there is cause for concern. I'm not saying panic, but there is cause for real concern. I would just say from from base basketball level, you walk in a gym with nine-year-olds, 10-year-olds, 9-10s a little young. But like, let's say 11, 12, when kids can really start playing pick and roll a little bit, the two best players fucking figure that out. They'll take three other kids that cannot play and just move them off to the side and they work and pick and roll.

Like, good players figure that out. So this, this kind of the seeds of the doubt are that those two don't seem to really, they're too good individually to not blend. And if they're not blending, then I think you have a bigger problem. So the other thing is like Lillard himself, I'm trying to find the quotes as, as we talk here. Lillard's quotes after the loss last night were kind of alarming because it sounded like he wasn't actually sure. like whether this makes sense if I could sum it up that way. Like his quote, I heard it earlier.

I haven't found it yet. But it was basically the effect of like he's used to playing a certain way. And it's like, wait, hold on. It's been a year now of trying to adjust to Janus. Is this an indication that like dame's never going to adjust? And the thing is like, guys, we've all seen versions of this, right? Like I watched and Steve Francis got to the Knicks and him and Marbury trying to figure it out. And it's like, no, these are two guys who just both need the ball in their hands all the time.

certain guys in this league, I think Iverson was this way too, especially like ball dominant guards. And Dame is not like any of those three. He's a different style. But some guys never figure out how to be the complimentary star or co-star or whatever other role that is not just primary high usage go-to player. And so now I'm wondering, like,

Dame wanted out. Dame wanted out of Portland. I gave all the benefit of the doubt. to the idea that he would figure out as the older of the two stars how to mesh with Janus. Like, Pina, what are we seeing in like dame, I don't know, game, body language, anything? Like, you know, like you mentioned it being targeted. Okay, yeah, fine. He's always been like a liability defensively.

But you're supposed to overcome that by being this absolutely killer pick and roll two-man game. And if that's not working, that I'm sorry. At that point, you're just screwed. Yeah, there was a sequence last night, which, by the way, like, losing to the Memphis Grizzlies when they don't have Desmond Bain and they're completely depleted with their bench is, like, inexcusable. And, like, that wasn't even a competitive basketball game. But there was a sequence last night where, you know, I'm not really big on your turn,

my turn as a point of criticism over 100 possessions in a game. But there was a sequence where Janus dribbles up. doesn't even think about passing the ball and bricks a two-point jumper, which is just not what you want if you're Janus or if you're the Bucks. Very next possession, dame dribbles the ball up the court, doesn't look at any of his teammates, bricks a two-point jumper. And I'm just like, this is, it's incredibly frustrating if I was a Milwaukee Bucks fan to watch a sequence like that because there wasn't even attempt for them to come together

and use just like synergistic skill sets that should, compliment each other perfectly. We haven't seen Dame set, you know, according to Sport Radar, we haven't seen Dame set one ball screen for Janus and Tentacumpo this season. And that is like obvious, it's an obvious inverted pick and roll that should have a lot of success. You see Pat Conitin has used it for years with Janus to let him get downhill or force a switch and get a mismatch and then work out of that.

So I just, I don't know. It's like there's a, there should be more will from both parties. I mean, there was another play. I know I'm rambling a little bit, but there was another play last night that was disturbing where, you know, Janice calls up Brooke Lopez to run a pick and roll. And it's Jaron Jackson Jr. and Zach Edy, and they just switch it. And Janus is up against Edy and the floor is, you know, there's no driving lanes. And he pulls up and he misses a jumper.

And it's like, Dame's just standing in the corner. So I don't understand what the process is. It just looks very broken when I watch them play. Yeah, that's, I didn't watch last night's game. Sorry, trick-or-treating, but, um, sorry. You know, like trick-or-treating with an iPad in your hands walking around, like watching the game while. No, I'm not that, dude.

But, but I'm like, I'm kind of mentally picturing what you're talking about as you're going through it, Michael. And the first thing that popped in my mind is what we think, talked about last pod briefly Howard, which was the coaching change, how it could affect a team when you don't really change pieces that much. And not that Milwaukee didn't change some pieces, but we referenced the Lakers and how the ball is moving, the people are moving, and it feels different when you watch it. And I did watch the Bucks. I forget who they were playing a couple. You don't get that feel. I actually feel like when I watch them, you know, under Budenholtzer,

when they were more championship level. Even though it might finish with Janus or finish with Chris Middleton or Drew, the ball moved a little bit. People moved a little bit. And again, I don't have stats to back that up. Like I didn't do the numbers on that. But that's what I was feeling watching them play during that heyday in a way that I did not

see the other night. It was very much like Michael was kind of talking about. And I guess when you incorporate a Dame Lillard as a skill set, you know, and you take Drew away from it, you're probably going to be more static because he does need the ball in that way. But in the possessions that we're not going to be static and we're not going to play pick and roll. And I'm talking about like there shouldn't be many of the ones you're describing where we're coming down just pulling up a jump shot with nothing. But we we should be in pick and roll with either one. I don't care. Janus with the ball, Dame with the

ball. Those two, again, we're going to stay in that until we get that right. But if we're not to be in that. Let's just move a little bit. Let's get the ball moving. Let's get people moving. And then let's finish it with one of you two on a catch and a close out or, you know, whatever your advantage is after the ball's moved and people have moved. And now let's play. And that really does solve a lot of problems. I mean, it sounds simple. It sounds like, you know, everyone in their and their mom would know that. But it really does change the math for defenses. And then, you know, we're talking about percentage points of effectiveness offensively. Like, you're looking for any little advantage. You got to get.

get it moving. If I put my Polyanna hat back on and I said, you know what, Middleton gets healthy. He's a really key piece. He's a two-way player. He, you know, he stabilizes their defense, gives them some, you know, presence on the perimeter, uh, gives them some balance. Maybe everything falls into place then, but I can't even say that with a straight face in part because also if Milton could come back and then be gone again after three more games because dudes always hurt. Um, but it also just, it feels like the disconnect or lack of synergy to use Michael Sturm between Janus and Dame. I don't know that Middleton changes that.

I don't know that time changes that. And time is usually the ultimate answer for chemistry concerns. Right, I just need more reps together. But like, by the way, while they're trying to do this, while they're trying to smooth all this out, the schedule is fucking crushing. They're about to play starting tomorrow. Cleveland twice, home and away. Utah is a soft one, but then at the Knicks,

then home against Boston. And it falls off a little after that, you know, Toronto, Detroit, Charlotte. But just even the next, you know, four of the next five games, they might be two and eight. And, you know, more reps, but more reps while you're all grumbling

and having to like fend off everybody else saying you're already done. and the league is already circling like buzzards trying to pick off your franchise star, which leads me to this. So, one, when I saw Bill Writers' report yesterday, I poked around myself, and I went two for two with executives that I texted. When I said, did you see the report? What do you think?

I actually had to count the number of zeros, and it was 10,000 percent true, what he texted back to me. There was a lot of zeros that I had to figure out. The other one said, not a surprise, not the first time it's come up. Thinks that Yonis prefers a bigger market, thinks that Yonis prefers East Coast over West, mentioned Brooklyn and Miami as potential suitors,

which was also in Bill Writers' report. But it doesn't sound like Janus himself is actually agitating yet. And guys, in the absence of Yonis actually saying, it's done, we're cooked, I won out. If I'm the bucks, and I think things are that badly broken, isn't the first move to trade Dame or to see if there's a market still for Dame? What is the market for Dame?

I don't know. I didn't ask that one of the two execs I texted with yesterday, but I don't know. Is Miami still desperate enough? Could you imagine the heat going, oh, oh, hi, Milwaukee, who stole Dame from under notes? Oh, now you want our help to take him off your hands. That would be an interesting conversation.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall for. I don't know. What do you, I don't know. What do you guys think? Real quick. Any chance of a dame trade? And would that fix anything? I guess it depends on what you get back.

Yeah, it would depend largely on what you get back. I'm with Michael. Like, I just don't know. And that's, you know, that's just, that's, that's a terror. I always feel for these dudes who are in a spot, maybe they didn't want a championship. but they've been great there, right? And then you take them out of that spot and you think that if you plug them into another team

that's on the verge of a championship, it's going to work, and it doesn't work, and it doesn't look good. And then, you know, it starts to kind of almost be like a, more of a reflection on them than maybe the situation or whatever. So I worry about the market for Dame. I really, if, you know, you're at a point in your career as a relatively small guard. I still love his game. But like, it starts to be a conversation in front

offices about like, yo, what is, what is that? Like, what is it now? What is it going to represent for us in terms of winning a championship? I don't have the answer. I'm not in those offices anymore, but that's a conversation now. Yeah. I mean, he's owed $54.1 million next year. And then he has a 58.4 million dollar player option that I would assume he's picking up during his age 30, six season. So the answer is he ain't worth that? I don't think so. And yeah, to your point, what Roger just said, like, he's 34 and he's undersized and the defense is only going to get worse. And if the offense is on heading in the wrong direction, then it's tough. I mean, you would think that in this environment with Janus and with Brooke Lopez, that his defensive

shortcomings wouldn't be so glaring. But if it's not really working in Milwaukee, where they've had this long held recipe for success on that end, then why would I, like, who is going to take him in and solve that problem? I just don't, I don't see it. Yeah. Yeah. I just, it's, even if you start doing the mental exercise of like, where would you send him? I have no idea where that would be given age and contract and fact that he does not, it's not like he's going to just go be somebody's spot up shooter, you know, as the third man, the third star. So, where I don't know. I don't know.

I feel like this is one of those quandaries that may not have an easy or any solution. Losing. You're just going to lose. I don't know what to say. Wait for Middleton. Like that's your only option right now. Yeah. I think probably if you gave them truth serum, Mike Budenholzer and Adrian Griffin are both just

kind of maybe not chuckling, just feeling a sense of sense of. satisfaction, like, yeah, maybe, maybe issues weren't, weren't coaching. All right. Actually, you know, last thought on this. And we'll probably be returning to this multiple times because I don't think anything's happening in the next day, week, month. Where would Janus if he gets traded actually make the most sense? We don't have to go too deep on this, but just your, your first gut reaction,

where would you drop Janus if you could? Well, I mean, I dropped, I dropped Janice anywhere and I'm good. But, you know, Golden State was an interesting one. I know people had talked about that, you know, a while ago. Very intriguing there. But when you said the teams, the heat is actually a really interesting one to me, like on the East Coast because I think he actually, DNA-wise, has a lot of the stuff that I think he's a good fit for what they want to do culturally and whatnot.

So those would be my two answers. Peter? Yeah, I think Miami and Golden State are really sensible on and off-court fits. You know, a team that would actually, I think, be really interested here that could give Milwaukee something is, well, I was going to say the Houston Rockets are primed to acquire a superstar like that, given how they're constructed. And I'm sure Yumeo Doka would be pretty pumped to get Janice and Dentecoupo on his rock. The other one is the Oklahoma City Thunder. But when I think about Oklahoma City, that would obviously be really scary. And I kind of just like, why would they just, why would they mess with what they have is kind of how I feel about the Oklahoma City Thunder?

And I don't know if that's really stupid, but they're really awesome. And they have their superstar and they have their complimentary pieces that are awesome and ascending. And they have the best defense in the NBA and potentially one of the best defenses I've ever seen. So I don't know, I don't know, but I think the Rockets would be really interesting team to try to take him on. Yeah. It's funny that like the Nets get mentioned in this and it's obviously it's because of all the draft picks they've got. But like, once you send out enough to make up the salary, it's Janus and who? Like he's downgraded. Like it's not, it doesn't make any sense. The other thought, of course, I immediately had is, oh shit. Maybe the Knicks should have sat tight for a little while longer, right? Because the Knicks for the longest time,

we're sitting on a big pile of draft picks and you thought, well, they're waiting on Janus to ask out or Luca to ask out or MB to ask out. And when it was clear that all those guys were not asking out, they spent all those picks to get McHale Bridges and then they went and got Caronthony Towns. But the picks mostly went out to get bridges. And if Janus asks out in the next couple of months or even at the end of the season, because like they were a very viable destination. And maybe you spent those picks too soon. Don't do that to the next fans Howard. I know. I just, it's, I'm not going to dwell on it. I'm not going to belabor the point. I understand what they did and why they did it when they did it. I'm just saying. I'll tell you what, Michael, when you said OKC,

golly, that's that's a crazy thought. Because my emotions swung like from one end of the spectrum to the other with that. Like when you said it, I was like, holy shit. and then and then no, because I was right with you. I was like, yeah, I don't know if you really, as great as he is. I don't know. I don't know if you want to go in there and start messing around with it. So I felt you on that.

Speaking of overreactions, how's that for a segue? Michael Pina wrote a column earlier this week because he just couldn't wait. Couldn't wait to start overreacting to the three and four games that were in the books for a variety of teams. So he had six overreactions. I'm not going to torch you with all of them in detail, Pina. I'm just going to note them for the record. One was that Jason Tatea would win MVP. The next one was that Anthony Davis would win MVP.

Dyson Daniels will make an all-defensive team. Anthony Edwards has abandoned the mid-range. That sounds like more of an observation than an overreaction. You're not my editor, so I don't care what you think. If I were Matt Dullinger, I think I would have sent that item back. That's all I'm saying. Five clippers, not bad.

And six, bucks have solved nothing. Woo-hoo! Yes, the overreaction that is absolutely positively indisputable. In all honesty, in all seriousness, Pina, I admire the exercise because I'm afraid of overreacting after three or four games, but not you.

You're a braver man than me. which of these are you already regretting which am I regretting to be honest AD being able to win MVP you know since I wrote that they were three and oh they've lost two in a row

and I just think that you know I wasn't really high on the Lakers coming into this season and I think structurally there are some flaws there that will be really difficult to paper over. I just think he will have to have one of the all-time individual seasons for them to finish with a top four seed in the Western Conference.

And, you know, LeBron, this could be the year where we see real tangible, notable decline from him physically in a way that is just a total departure from this you know the all-time great that we've seen for 20 plus years and he obviously came really close to not scoring in double figures the other night and his you know he's overly relying on the three-point shot which has been true for him for so far but i just think when he attacks the basket it's it's just not there i mean the calves put evan mowgli on him and i know he's one of the best defenders in the NBA, but completely shut LeBron's water off in that game when Mowgli wasn't in foul trouble. And so I just think AD has just a lot on his plate.

And when I see that the Lakers aren't shooting threes, they rank near the bottom of the league in three point rate and actually have a lower one than they had last season after all this talk of Reddit coming in and everyone's going to shoot threes, I just think this is a play-in team at best. and it would take just like Herkulean effort by Anthony Davis for them to finish higher than that. Raja, as I read the list of Pina's six overreactions to week one, which one are you buying? Which one seems most likely? If I'm going to ask you to overreact with him.

Yeah. Which one do you like? Jason Tatum? Winning MVP? Yeah. That seems like the safest of the six. Yeah, yeah. Aside from the bucks having solved nothing.

Yeah, that one clearly. We'll go with my number two. I like Jason Tatum. Yeah, I mean, I think he's been right on the verge of that, right in the conversation, like maybe, you know, outside of the top three. But like right in that group of players where you're going to make a case and certainly make a case for in the future having an opportunity to do that. I think, you know, obviously Jalen Brown and how good they are as an ensemble, like kind of

cast is, is. it might prove difficult for him to actually win it. But they're great. And he is continuing to get better and better. So yeah, I like that one. You know which one I found interesting, though? Because I talk about it a lot is the mid-range in Anthony Edwards. And I kind of talked about coming into the season,

why I was interested in watching them. And it had a lot to do with his figuring out how to round out that game because of some of the things I saw in the playoffs. So I'm interested in that one, Howard and Michael, just, you know, because, like, I know what the numbers say and whatnot, but I do think he has to be able to maintain a balance because he is such a tough bucket getter and a lot of tough buckets come in that two-point range. We're talking about situationally, you know, not over the course of a game and making that your bread and butter way to score the ball.

But like having that as a huge part of your bag last four or five minutes a game, maybe even just fourth quarter in general when we're going to need buckets and you just got to get to what you're most comfortable doing to get it for us. I just don't want him to lose that part of it. You can streamline it, you know, like for, for, you know, efficiency and, and, uh, and whatnot, but don't lose it. It's, you know, we're in like year 13 or whatever of this debate about, you know, analytics and how it influences

shot selection and oh well the best shots and most efficient shots are you know threes and at the rim so and then the qualifier is so yeah but if you're good at the midrange by all means take the midrange you just don't want bad midrange shooters taking midrange jumpers so where does that leave Anthony Edwards in this as a young star

who is still kind of you know discovering the extent of his powers and who who wants to be in an MVP discussion that right now involves Tatum and Anthony Davis, but according to Michael's list, did not at the moment involve Mr. Edwards. But he's in that discussion. He's on the fringes of that.

Should Anthony Edwards be embracing the mid-range on the premise that he needs that tool in the arsenal to get the Timberwolves where they want to go? Or is he falling in that other category of, you know what? Maybe this is not for you. Well, for the record, Anthony Edwards, was my preseason pick to win MVP Howard.

So I've got all my bases covered here. Damn it. No, I think that, I think, you know, him embracing the three point line has been something that his head coach has publicly called for since he's been his head coach. Chris Finch has constantly said we need to get him more engaged behind the arc, particularly on catch and shoot attempts. And we've seen that this year. and the other part of it is honestly

his shots at the rim have plummeted and I think a lot of that is because or somewhat of it so far and this is such a small sample size but the spacing just is not what it was with Carl Anthony Towns when you replace him with Julius Randall I mean teams completely ignore Julius Randall

when he's standing on the perimeter and those two still are obviously working out you know, their on-court chemistry, understandably so. And so I think that when you watch Anthony Edwards play, you know, last year, the year before that, when the spacing has been bad and clunky, he's resorted to long twos. And so this year, I think the improvement is just now he's taking the pull-up three

and he's pumped to take it and he's hunting those shots. And I think that's really good. And you're seeing, you know, his efficiency is sky-high better than it's ever been from an effective field goal percentage standpoint. So he just needs to, you need balance regardless. I totally agree with that. I mean, he's going to have to, you know, I don't know if he'll ever be as good of a shooter as like a KWI or a KD from the mid-range,

given his size, but he has athleticism. He has lift. He can get to his spots. And that'll be a key thing in the playoffs in the postseason for sure. But I think getting to the basket using your athleticism is also, I mean, it would be a crime if that was not a huge. part of his offensive arsenal. So it's finding how you can balance all of that to maximize this unbelievable skill set. But when I've seen so far, I'd love that he's taking a lot

of threes from the jump and just setting the tone for the season. Is your Clippers are not bad take because you were just so at the take for the Clippers. And I am still of the very firm belief that maybe not now, but they will be. They're going to be bad. I don't believe. Sorry, Clippers. I'm not. I'm not. I'm, I'm not buying the James Hardin show. All right. So Raja has a hardout in about 12 minutes. And I cannot, we got to shift gears here because I cannot let Raja miss this discussion.

We need Raja in this discussion. Raja, I need to hear the former player, especially the former player who carried himself a certain way on the court at times. Okay. I need to hear you on Joe Mazzula's thoughts. on fighting and such. Joe Mazulah was on a Boston radio show called Zolak and Bertrand. Shout out to Zolak and Bertrand.

They asked a very simple question about what, the concept of altering the three-point arc, right? Have it end at the sidelines. Get rid of the corner three. Semi-nerty discussion about basketball strategy and the style of the game and how we're paint the court and all this stuff. And Missoula ignored it entirely and says, first of all, let's entertain more important rules that would make the game better.

So there should be like a power play where a take foul or a technical, you have to play five on four for five seconds or three passes. That was one quote from Missoula. And then later in the same discussion, he says, he basically advocated for bringing back fighting. He says, quote, the biggest thing that we in the NBA rob people up from an entertainment standpoint is you can't fight anymore. We should just bring back fighting. Raja, this is why I need you in this discussion, Russia. Man. You've been known to throw a forearm occasionally or, you know, get a little chippy out there.

Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. I mean, listen, I'm obviously, my tone itself is clearly very dismissive of the idea we should bring back fighting. In the column that Katie Bakes and I collaborated on, I'll find that at the ringer.com as well, I certainly questioned the sanity of this particular stance, which did not sound tug-in-cheek from Missoula, but then again, he always looks deathly serious. So, uh, Raja, fighting, good? Fighting no good. That's what I tell me. Fighting bad. We're not starting any fights. Um, I want to say, I mean, PowerPlay wouldn't so outside the box for, like, interesting, interesting, man. Like,

You do a, you do like transition defense drills in basketball all the time, right, where you line up like five across the baseline and five facing them across the free throw line. You throw the ball to one player and the corresponding guy on the free throw line facing the baseline guy has to go touch the baseline. And then now you're playing five on four until the other guy gets back in the play. It's always a fun part of practice. I always enjoyed it.

So that was interesting to hear that. Fighting, no. And I want to give. I want to think that Joe, I don't know him well, was basically saying what I would say to anyone asking me about the rules is like, I miss the physicality sometimes. I don't need it to be 70s, 80s. Do you know, I'm not, I'm not lobbying for like the bad boys' pistons and, and that's not what I'm lobbying for. But like we've stripped so much out. We've just stripped so much physicality out of the game that like some of us, some fans don't enjoy it as much all the time.

Like I can get into some games where they got stuff going on and their actions and, you know, my basketball upbringing can appreciate like what's going on out there. And then there's some games that I watch that are just come down, shoot a three. Get it off the rim, come down, shoot a three. Get it off, come down the rim, run pick and roll, get a switch, dance, shoot a three. Like, I don't love that. Yeah. I don't.

And I'm not here to, like, ran on it. But what I'm saying is, like, I'm hoping what he meant was, like, there is a way to, to still have scoring up and reintroduce some elements of physicality to the game. Like, for whatever it's worth. Like, they're players that, that made livings playing in the NBA for specific and certain skill sets that could never play in the NBA right now. That was, that was all really eloquent and plausible, logical. but he actually said we need fighting.

Yeah. So I can't defend that. I can't defend that. Mazzula didn't say, you know, let's bring back physical play. Like, we should give defenses a little bit more room to like what a. No, he said, let's just bring back fighting straight up. I didn't have a great rant to go into about the fighting because like I can't support that. But so I took it where I wanted to go with it.

Like, I didn't know where he's coming from with that. And what was the last time you saw like a real like real fist flying? Yeah. in NBA games. Like, I don't know. You're talking about going, you're going way back. Was it?

Chris Childs and like, like, them dudes were throwing a few blows, but like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not supporting that. No.

And he even went into a tangent about how like, in the other sports, they're allowed to have these base clearing, or baseball, base clearing brawls or, uh, hockey. They got bench clearing brails.

Base clearing, base, bench clearing. Um, it's been a long, it's been a long day so far for me. Uh, bench clearing brails at other sports.

and he's saying, hey, they can do it. Why, like, why have we eliminated it? I don't know. Well, might have something to do with the malice at the palace, Joe. I know you're a little younger than me. Maybe you've never seen the YouTube clips. But, dude, like, the league had a serious crisis. Their bench clearing brawl didn't spill into the stands.

Yeah. Yeah, that was a serious crisis back in 2004. So, no, probably bad. Pina, resident Celtics fan. Did you want, do you care to defend anything? that Joe Missoula said? No, but as I told you over text, you know, geniuses like to think outside the box

and just have a lot of respect for his basketball mind. I think, you know, Joe Missoula is antagonistic by nature. He's very confrontational. I think he means what he says. And I think that, you know, his coin, what was the, it was like everyone should have five coins, which is actually that was totally. insane. And I think,

it's one of the craziest things I've ever heard. Roger, this part of the interview, he says we should all have five coins, not just NBA players, all people at Earth should walk worth five coins. And at any given time, you could give that coin to somebody and now you have to fight. Yeah. Okay, Joe. Like, I, like, what? I mean, so once you give away a coin, like, you've got, you got four now.

If you're the person, like, let's say, seven people have walked up and handed you a coin like you just look like an easy win, right? So you've accumulated. Maybe you're an asshole. They all want to kick the shit out of you. Or that? You've got now 12 coins to use? Or did they go dead when you use them?

If I'm going to interpret a little bit on Bezula's behalf, I think maybe if I put down my coin in front of you, Raja, now you're obligated to throw it on your coin. And whoever wins the fight, that would be you, walks away with both coins. That would be my guess. They're like challenge coins, right? Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah? So these are like skin.

Like we're walking like these are like Like in gangs of New York With like the dead rabbits we got skins on the wall All right all right I'm sorry It's just that's bizarre That's bizarre that's bizarre And the the power play thing

Like I try I actually pinged a couple of people On the analytics side to just say Can you just tell me Is there any Is there any data out there Within NBA games Not because we don't have power plays

But there are five on four Transition plays and other stuff. Is there any data out there that could tell us what the percentage of basket scored is? Because I got to think if you actually had a true power play in the NBA, five on four, it is almost an automatic basket or automatic shooting foul. It's not entertaining. It's not entertaining. No. This is like this is this is absolutely stupid. Well, for a, well, it is. It is. By the way, there is no data. I asked for data. They said, they said, no, there's no data. But yeah, that's basically an automatic basket or shoot.

You 100% couldn't play a possession like that. You would have to be like you got a, you got like a three or four second head start on a possession. And we're going to infuse the fifth defender. So if you can find the shot within four or five seconds, you got that true advantage. If not, you just have the advantage of a scrambling defense. But yes, players are too good.

Like you get a bit, you can't do that. No. No. Pina, is there any part of this that, you found compelling or defensible? or are you ready to just concede the point that the coach of the Celtics? I'm going to remember everything he says if he ever runs for political office, and I'm going to do everything I can to keep him out of the government.

Because some of his ideas are just, they're out there. I do, you know, I forget if it was you or Katie Baker who wrote that the way he dodged a question about the three point line was suspicious, just getting everyone off the scent because that is Boston's great advantage. It's just like, we're going to just bomb away from the three point line and spread you out and everyone can shoot. And that's kind of what's driving their success right now. So I don't know if that was a tactic on his part in the interview. Yeah, I will say this, and I noted this in the piece that Katie and I did, which is that considering that Missoula arrived in this position, with that last minute promotion after Emay was dismissed, that Missoula was one of these like super serious basketball guys.

He's up on the podium. You ask him a question. He asks was a very straight, stern face in very basketball terms in a way that I consider to be, you know, borderline dull at times. He's very mechanical. He's very just about the X's and O's. And those things are important. I'm not diminishing the game that actually exists in this game.

I'm just saying like there was not a lot of, I don't think personality there. or he's not going to sit up there and, like, tell a story, right? He's going to give you some X's and O's and response just about everything. And now, now I'm like, man, this guy might be my favorite coach interview in the league. Like, I can't wait to hear what comes next because any given week, there's some, there's some wild stuff. We talked about it on the pot a couple weeks ago about, you know, his like, none of you guys are invited to my funeral in 40 years. Like, all right, cook, Joe. I love this. He's a weird dude, man.

like I'd like to, I'd really, I'd like to have a beer with him. I'd like to find out, are you, is this all for shell, bro? Or are you that weird? See, it comes off like a very weird dude. He does, and I think he is. And there's nothing wrong with that. Weird is good. I actually, the Celtics should start selling T-shirts.

Like, in Portland, they have the sign. Keep Portland weird. Keep Missoula weird. Keep the Celtics weird. That should be a thing now. Like, considering they're a team of pretty bland personalities otherwise, if Missoula is going to actually keep things lively. So I'm good.

I'm good with that. Or is he smart enough to be the lightning rod? Like, hey, man, just keep it over here. There's something to be that said. Yeah. No, there's a lot to be said for that. That's a real thing. And I don't know if he's doing it for that intention.

But having everything be kind of like people firing at you or criticizing you or questioning you as opposed to your players is actually a good move for a coach. So all that said, I think we. We've reached Roger Bell's hoard out. He has fatherly duties in and around. Pick up line, baby. Yeah. Is that, do you have to have the big Dodge minivan?

Is that your look at pickup? No, I love minivans. I rent them everywhere I go, but my wife's not letting me buy a mini van. Good, goodbye your wife. That's a good call. Yeah. All right, Roger, go go play carpal dad. And we'll see you Tuesday.

All right, Raja is out. It's time for us to move on as well. Pina, thanks for jumping in. Always a pleasure. And Raja and I will be back on Tuesday.