The Ringer NBA Show - Giannis vs. Harden, a Budding Personal Rivalry | The Mismatch

Episode Date: February 28, 2020

We parse James Harden’s comments in response to Giannis Antetokounmpo passing him over during the All-Star draft (16:28), before breaking down which middle-seeded Western Conference playoff teams should be the most feared (22:47). Finally, we take a look at the lowly Chicago Bulls, who are getting good minutes from Coby White, and try to determine which of their young players most deserve to stay for the long haul (44:34). Host: Chris Vernon Guest: Jonathan Tjarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's Microsoft.com slash teams. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon, and this Friday is the last without Kevin O'Connor. He will be back with us next week for the mismatch. But filling in once again from the ringer.com is Jonathan Charks. Hey, Charks. Hey, man, I have to get my takes out one more time, I guess, before KOC gets back. Well, you may have some today, considering we've had a very busy week,

including last night. The game that I ended up probably watching the, most of was the Oklahoma City Sacramento game because Sacramento had been playing good basketball lately and though they were going to be without De Aaron Fox, it looked recently like, hey, they may end up being able to jump up in this mix. We have talked about the teams that are going to be fighting for that eight seed, the grizzlies, the pelicans, the blazers, the spurs. But then Sacramento, because of their recent play had gotten within, well, even after last night's

loss, a half a game of the Spurs, and they were only going to be one game behind both Portland and New Orleans. So they were kind of getting in the mix. Well, you know what them, right? Chris, what happens with Sacramento? What's that? Your guy at Bagley was out. They started winning games. That's not the reason they started winning games. Trust me. They have had such a strange season, but they've been playing well. They were playing great last night. And they're up on Oklahoma City big, and then, of course, gacked it away, and you get into the fourth quarter and you get into a close game with Chris Paul. And again, we talked about this earlier in the week, Charks, and this is the reason that I

really like Oklahoma City when it comes playoff time as a team that I would not want to be facing. And it's because it seems like when push comes to shove and you're in these nip-tuck games down the stretch, this guy delivers over and over again, whether he's getting in the lane and making a shot or he's setting somebody else up. He just takes over games. Yeah, they've maximized what they have. And like we talked about earlier this week, that three point guard lineup has been killing teams. But when you're talking playoffs and you're talking a first round series against an elite team, I still have some questions. Like, do you think they could beat Houston for real?

But are they playing an elite team? Houston's pretty good. They've been killing it since the trade. Houston might not end up being the four seed. We know that, right? And they may end up getting higher, considering that the way they play, they're only, look, they're a game back from the Clippers.

They're two games back from the Nuggets. Houston may keep on winning. You know, I mean, they're eight and two in their last 10. They've won five in a row. They've been playing, as you said,

great. They got the third best point differential. I guess actually the fourth best point differential in the conference. I could certainly. I could certainly see Houston moving up. But even if you want to say that, I mean, I saw Oklahoma City beat them twice this year. But that was before the trade.

They were not very good before the trade. All right. And let me speak on this because I know, look, inevitably there's going to be people coming out there and say, oh, you're just a Houston hater. You just hate Hardin. And so, of course, that's what you do. Look, I like their style of play.

I obviously watched them destroy the Grizzlies the other night. I like this whole five short guys. thing. I think it's very difficult to match up with. But here's what I would say. And you and I talk about college basketball, interestingly enough, earlier in the week, or maybe it was last week. And when we were talking about John B-lined, and then we were talking about Shaka Smart and some other guys. And those guys were like each other in the sense that in college basketball, you play against somebody when it gets to the NCAA tournament that you cannot replicate and it is very difficult to face.

And so it could be the Mike Anderson teams that pressed you the entire time, or even Bruce Pearl's early Tennessee teams, or it could be Shaka Smarts VCU teams, or it could be this one-three-one that John B-Line was running at West Virginia and then some at Michigan. Or it can be Syracuse and their two-three zone, that they could have not that great of a team that ends up going very deep in the NCAA tournament

because teams just don't see it enough and it's very hard to replicate. And I'm saying all that to tell you that I really believe that that's what's going on with the Rockets. And I do believe that the rest of the season, they are going to win like hell. They changed this in the middle of the season. All right? These NBA teams do not practice during the season very much. And so when you switch and you're comfortable with it in the middle of the season,

and then you're not playing anybody like this, any other game, you're going to get beat. But when it comes time that a team can prepare for it and a team can just decide, okay, there is only one team that I have to focus on. That's where I think it will come into play. And that's why I don't think that this will be as dangerous as it looks during the regular season. And people can discount my opinion on this or not, but this is what I would tell you, that with those teams, say that Syracuse team that I was talking about, two years ago, three years ago, whatever it was now, that Miles Bridges, Jaron Jackson, Jr., that whole Michigan State team.

Oh, that was brutal. I remember that. I had, or even you could go back to the Ola Depot, Cody Zeller team. I mean, that was two lottery picks on one team. They got beat by his own. But anyway, go back to that Michigan State team, okay? So they play Syracuse and the one off. They get knocked out. second round of the tournament, a team which I will forever remember because I had them winning the tournament that year. I promise you if that Michigan State team got to play them seven times, it is a different story charts. But if you play them in a one-off, you're dead. And I do think that is the case with a lot of these NBA teams. They're not going to be practicing. You don't really know how to match up or what you want to do against it. And they're going to beat the crap out of people. I really believe that. But I do think when given the extra time to prepare that it's not going to be one of those things where people say, well, what do you do? How do you match up? These guys are smart coaches and they will figure out how to punish Houston

for doing what they do. I mean, maybe, right? Like, Quinn Snyder's a smart coach. Utah had two years to match up with Houston and they came up with nothing, right? So like, let's talk matchups. If you're the OKC series, do you think they can keep Adams on the floor against Houston? Like, How is that going to happen? I think you punish them for being small. You know, interestingly enough, years ago, and it's a different lineup because they had that front line of Adams. They bring in Perkins. They had Ibaka.

They had Durant. And that's the way they were able to take a Golden State to the brink. You know, slow the game down. Now we're playing the game at my pace. We're playing a game more in the 90s than in the 120s. and I'm just destroying you on the on rebounding like there's a key word there Chris uh durant yeah if they had Durant yeah but he's not wrong that door in Oklahoma City you you punish people for going small the other thing is of all the teams Oklahoma City plays

three guards to devastating result why would they be because I think the issue is they use Adam so much than the pick and roll like their whole game is pick and roll with a big and so like well, that big, Adams were Gallinari, right? If you spread it out and they're going to screen their man onto Hardin and Westbrook. So like Gallo and Adams, can those guys stay on the floor defensive? That to me is the question. All right. I think that when you get, when it comes down to it and somebody is going to be able to prepare

for them that they are going to be able to give them problems, much more problems than what we are seeing. I don't think this is as devastating in the playoffs as it is during the regular season. But them doing it in the middle of the season is, I mean, it's genius. I guess my question for you, Chris, so we've been talking about the teams you don't want to see. Who's the team you want to see at a two, three, four? Is it Denver? So it's Denver Clippers Rockets, right?

They're all in the same mix. Oh, 100%. Who would you want to see if you're Oklahoma City, right? It's Denver, right? A hundred percent. Look, and this is not a slight on Denver. I love the collection of talent that they have. Well, I mean, I guess you could say it's a slight.

But, I mean, you've got to prove it. They won in seven games. against the spurs and then and then dame did them in in the second round you know and so to me my question with Denver is do you trust Murray and Harris I feel like Yokic kind of

carries them in regular season and those guys didn't play very well last year in the playoffs Murray had moments for sure certainly in that Spur series but again like I just no no the answer

like when it that's what I'm talking about these games, they typically come down to who's the best guy on the court or at least the guy that's the true alpha and I'm going to take over this game and I'm winning this game. End of story. And that's why, to me, Paul scares me because he's got the ball in his hands too. So that's why Paul scares me more. You know, because so many of them, you know, it comes down to the very end and it is close in the last five minutes.

and that's the guy I would want. Like I'm saying, and I tweeted this last night, past the L.A. teams, they're the team that I would be most fearful of. Interesting. So you think you're the third best team in the West? I think they are the team that I would be. That's a pretty good take.

I like it. Yeah, Oklahoma City is the one I wouldn't want to see. Absolutely. Interesting. They are the ones that I would not want to see. They got a good home court advantage. And they got real talent on that. team now.

And Paul is... See, but my concern, Chris, like, is their wings. The concern is Craig Paul being healthy. He has not stayed healthy throughout playoffs. So he has to stay healthy. But if you told me I'm getting totally healthy, Chris Paul?

Because, like, to me, they start Lu Gwen's Dort on a two guard. And then their other wings off the bench are Terrence Ferguson, Abdel Nader, and Hamadu Diallo. Like, that's my concern. I feel like they don't have a lot of lineups they can go to outside their three point guards. They only have the one weapon.

Like, I don't trust any of those guys in the series. But everything tightens up so much in the playoffs. Right? In terms of number of players who are playing. Yeah. I mean, you shorten everything. I think you still need about six or seven guys, though. You need, like, five guys you trust in a closer and one or two guys off the bench. I agree with you. I agree with you. And they just can't get stomped when they don't

have Paul or whoever on the floor. Now, immediately, when I said that, I got the whole day. Did you forget about Houston? What about you? Houston, right? This kind of stuff. Like Houston, to me, I look at it and I say, look, look, they have two devastating players and it appears that if they're going to be able to be awesome at the same

time. There's a couple things. Number one, their third guy I think was, especially when you would get into these playoff games, you would say Eric Gordon, right? There's no question. Unquestionably, it's Gordon.

He's had some big moments in last couple of years. Well, but he's also, he's hurt. And he's been bad and hurt all year. So if you just say, hey, we're going to take this one guy out, not out, but he ain't getting 40. All right. Then when it comes playoff time, who are you counting on? Who are you counting on? This guy is going to give it to me that night.

I feel like I trust this because that's what happens. I mean, look, you watched it for years. with Harden and Durant. I'm sorry, with Westbrook and Durant, where you would just decide, like, one or the other, we're going to try to focus on them and that they don't get their monster numbers,

or if they do, they do it on an extreme amount of shot attempts. So if they score 30, they're not doing it on 17 shots. They're doing it on 30 shots, right? And so who's the next guy that steps up, you know, after those two? you get past those two.

But see, to me, I trust Houston's guys in their roles. They've got a lot of wings with size who can shoot. So you have Covington, you have Daniel House. You have guys who are going to spread the floor. And those OKC teams, you could load up onto Westbrook and Durant because they had no shooting. They're playing like Cephalotian and Andre Robertson big minutes. I understand. So you would take Covington's a guy.

It's tough because he's not the guy to score, obviously. That's what I'm saying? But I mean, you are going to need that, though. These things slow down. You know what I mean? Nobody's going to be playing them. I will trust, I do trust Gordon. I think like if I'm taking between Gordon like Dennis Schroeder, I'd take Gordon over him.

Fair enough. They, uh, I mean, he's gotten some chops in the playoffs. He's a good defender. He can get hot. He's a pretty good ball handler too. Let me tell you who is extremely confident in what they've got going. And that is James Harden. And James Hardin.

Oh, he has some good one. This is good. He did a sit down with Rachel Nichols. And I feel like this hasn't really been blown up yet. People aren't. Let's blow it up then. I haven't seen a lot of conversation about it. But he does at one point say he thinks he's the best player in the league.

He does seem a bit miffed at the idea that like say NBA.com has like an MVP ladder and he's not even in the top five, to which he says I'm still leading the league in scoring. And he says that, you know, there will come a day where people appreciate it more. And then it gets to the best part of this interview. which is her bringing up and shout out to Rachel Nichols she brings up Janice Antecoompo goofing on him on national television when it was time to pick the all-stars

and he looked at the board and it was James Harden, Trey Young and Kemba Walker and I'll let you hear the clip because they asked James Hardin, Rachel asked James Hardin about this particular instance that was on national television.

I'm between Ken by Trey Young. Wait, you don't want to dribbler? I want somebody that's going to pass the ball. That's what I want. Yonison T'Cupo makes a joke on the air about, I want to take someone who can pass. I'm taking Kimball Walker instead of James Hardin. I have his more sister to him, I think.

I don't see what the joke is. But I don't even, I didn't even see it. I don't pay attention to stuff like that. I just know none of them can mess with me. You know, when it's all set and done, you know, they'll appreciate it more, you know, but I wish I could just run, run and with seven feet and run and just dump. Like, that takes no skill at all.

I got to actually learn how to play basketball, how to have skill, you know? I take that any day. Do you think that in the end a title is going to give you the respect that you think you deserve? I mean, it is, and I will get it. You feel confident about that? Very. All right. All right, Josh.

Man. Man. Number one, you know, he says I didn't see it. He had a... He obviously saw it. Come on. He had an absolute awareness that Janus had done that. Of course, look, these guys, their phone goes off immediately, you know, from one of their buddies.

If they didn't see it, I promise you, somebody close to him within two seconds told him. It's a 20-second clip. Of course, he watched it. He says, I average more assist than them, or, you know, and then he says, what's so funny about that? Like, he doesn't even... He doesn't even... get that it's humorous at all. And he says, none of those guys can mess with me.

But then it gets to the good part, which was this is the clapback at Yonnas, which is the I wish I was seven feet and could just run down and dunk it. That doesn't take any skill. I have to have skill to do what I do. What cracked me about that, like that is pretty funny, but isn't he also telling on himself? Like, I'm the best player in the world. man, I wish I was seven feet tall I could dunk on people.

I'd be amazing. Like, yeah, if you were that, you'd be the best player in the world. There's no high classes in basketball. Like, you don't get extra points for being smaller. Is it, do you find Giannis Antecoo to be unskilled?

He's very skilled. Not as skilled as James Harden, obviously, but he's very skilled. Yeah. But if he was James Harden, high, he wouldn't be the same player he was now, obviously. But this is where you know,

and look, I got to say this, everybody knows I'm not a Hardin fan. man, he's going to win me over if he embraces being like the heel, the villain. I mean, really, like just totally, everybody hates you. Just embrace it and go with it, right? Because then it's weird. The pendulum can swing. I like this.

I really do. I like that he, because he's being honest. That's what he would say to his buddies. And yet he's saying it on television with Rachel Nichols. You know, he's, like, that's what he really thinks. Now, he may be goofy. But he really thinks that. He really looks at it and goes, bro, yeah, yeah, Janice Antigumo winning MVP's.

Like, this guy runs down the goal. He's seven foot tall. He runs out the ball. He runs down the court and just donks, right? Like, what does that take? Look what I'm doing. And I'm averaging X amount of points. I was averaging 37 points a game or whatever he was averaging.

You know, like, it's, it's hater stuff. But that's how he really feels. I mean, yeah, he's not wrong. The degree of difficulty for what he does. is much harder, right? Like, it's harder for a guy hard in size and speed to just dominate a game

than Janus. But the flip side of that is like, yeah, that's why you're probably going to lose. You know, it's harder for you. Like,

game was about making it as easy as possible. Well, and what I like is he could have played, I gotta be honest with you, he could have played the safe role, right? I don't really pay attention

to what everybody says. I just keep on playing my game and, in the end, you know, the stats and the record will speak for itself, you know, you know how everybody does, right? Instead, he's like, great, that's how impressive. Like, I wish I could just go down the court and run and dunk on people. Like, what I have to do take skill. I mean, he is crap. You know what my thought was? He is, he is taking away from him. There's just no way around it, right? He is, he is, uh, he's throwing a turd in the proverbial punch

on the Janice Anta de Kumpo love. Do you think this is like Westbrook's influence? Because Hardin didn't really talk much before. You think this is kind of Russ gassing him up a little bit? I don't know. Russ doesn't, I think he probably just takes it, takes it all in.

And then Rachel did a great job of asking questions that would goad him. You know that's going to get under his skin. Like, there's just no way around it. Well, because like, right, how many times was Hardin'way talked before? You're talking about him embracing the heel role.

He really doesn't ever say anything. No, Oh, and Westbrook. So I don't know how much info that is because Westbrook doesn't talk at all. Like, I listened to Rachel on with Bill Simmons last week, and he even brought it up. Like outside of like maybe like a fashion interview with like a GQ or something, like when is the last sit down interview you can remember with Russell Westbrook? Like even in the playoffs, you get Kauai to sit down and do interviews. Like, I can't remember the last time I saw.

He gives sassy quotes, though, even if he's not doing a sit-down. Like, he'll give you something for the, you know, for the clips. Yeah, but I'm talking like something like that, like what we saw with Rachel sitting down with James Hardin. Russ doesn't do that. You know what I mean? Yeah. He doesn't do it. And now Hardin will probably never do it again because this will get blown up.

There's just no way around it. Unless he embraces the heel roll, unless he goes for it. Oh, yeah. And then he just said, yeah, I said it. yeah I said it what I do take skill what that guy does doesn't take any skill

he's just a big mutant that thunks on people so what I kind of like it right I mean it's not a bad line for sure well it makes it

it makes it a little more it's like wrestling or something they have a game one in a couple weeks that kind of adds some spice to it does

the Lakers killed Golden State without LeBron and one of the one of the things that came out of it is obviously the Lakers, you know, this is this is proof of worth when you, even without LeBron. And I know that the warriors are no good, but when you can smoke people without LeBron James, it does at least give you a little bit of pride that not totally dead without him. I know the numbers with him on the bench. Pretty bad. Yeah, they're still not good. So it's nice to, if you're a. a Laker fan to see your team destroy somebody when LeBron sits down. And they did that once before.

Dremont, I couldn't believe that he is two tech short of a one-game ban because I would have figured Dremont going through this season and the level of frustration that he must be feeling. I'm actually rather impressed that he's that far away from getting a suspension. Oh, and the other thing is, when I looked up at the, I looked up the number of techs guys have this year, this is one to keep an eye on, charts, because when I was looking this up, Westbrook is right there at the top with him. Westbrook is actually tied for first with him now. So you're only a couple games away from getting a, from getting a suspension. if you're Westbrook, or I mean, a couple of texts away. And he got won the other night in that national TV game against the Grizzlies. Didn't they get ejected?

No, he didn't get ejected in that game. But the one he got, I think it was Kane Fitzgerald. I think that's who the ref was. But, I mean, it was deplorable. Look, I'm no, I'm no, I'm no Rockets Homer. But that referee hates them. Hardin got hit in a face and they called a foul on Hardin. And like, fair is fair.

I'm watching the game. And objectively, he gave, like, Westbrook like, screamed and won, and the guy gave him attack. Like, he does, like, you're, this is one of those, your reputation precedes you, but he, they, they, he can, he can get a, uh, tough whistle sometimes. And there's obviously some of these reps that hate them. Um, Westbrook and Dremont are tied at the very top for the most technical fouls. And they're both two away, uh, from getting a suspension.

You want to try to guess, try to guess, have you pulled it up? the others. No, I don't have it. Okay, the others in the top five. I was shocked by one of these. There's no, I mean, I really have no idea. All right. This is a tough one.

Marcus Morris. Okay, that's not shocking. That's not shocking at all. And Kyle Lowry, that's not shocking either, right? Yeah. Kyle yells at the refs the whole game. Five is what shocked me. The fifth most, to Marjorosen.

Oh, wow. Yeah, that is surprising. I would never have guessed. I mean, and then it's Jonas Valenchunis and Patrick Beverly and Tray Young are all tied. And then Andre Drummond. The Demard de Rosenwood is shocking to me. I can't believe he's that high in technical fouls. Long year down there, San Antonio.

Well, and in the course of looking that up, I went to see, I was like, I wonder how many is the most technical fouls someone's gotten. And now, because they give you a suspension, if you get a thing, If you get too many texts. That's like the best record in the NBA. Yeah. Like 41? He had 41 technicals in 80 games. Rashid was a legend, man.

He was really a legend. I mean, 41. I mean, he was playing in like Air Force ones with the Velcro unbuckled. Like he really was a legend. There'll never be another Rashid Wallace. No one like that will ever come up again, I don't think. I mean, 41. you, I don't even know, I mean, I could do the math.

I suppose it is possible, but not with losing the game checks and getting a suspension after you get them when you do now. 41 in 80 games. That was in the 2000, 2001 season. All right. So we covered the Draymod and the Lakers killing a Golden State. regarding that particular game and those two teams,

LeBron will be coming back. They have a big game against the Pelicans this weekend. But there is news that there's going to be a meeting and that Steph Curry could be returning. I already have March 1. So it'd be like Sunday.

What do you think? I think it'll be good for Golden's. I mean, obviously getting Steph back. But I think they got to figure out what Wiggins looks like with other good players around him. I think that's like the big question.

out this team. Because they traded for Wiggins to get him in a smaller role. But since he's been in Golden State, he's just jacking shots like usual. It's a bad team with no talent. So he has to learn how to play a secondary role. So that'll be good practice for him. And that is one of the things that gets brought up is why. Why?

Why is Steph Curry coming back, right? They got a horrible record. And so what? Just to like, so you win a couple games that you wouldn't have won? But that's the truth. A, basketball players love playing basketball. And so if he's uninjured and he wants to play, that's the reason. You know, because the idea is, God forbid, he get hurt at the rest of this season,

which is a throwaway season anyway, and that jeopardize next season, where they should be able to come back and be an outstanding team again. But you do, as you said, you want to see what you've got when he's on the court and evaluate, you know, how Wiggins looks and who you want to keep and who you want to get rid of. And the other thing is the guy wants to play basketball, right? So there's the answers. It's not about how many, you know, they should be trying to lose as much as they can. You and I have chronicled several times in our few weeks together, Charks.

This draft ain't worth, you know, and they got a $50 billion stadium with all kinds of people spending all kinds of money. You might want to give him some entertainment this year, at least for the last month they could have some fun. Yeah, you only get so many shots to play at a high level. You don't want to ever take a year off because you never know if you can get it back. Right. Steps in his 30s now. And he could get hurt,

but he could get hurt playing pickup in the summer. So I got to let him go. Well, we don't know about getting back as Ben Simmons, who we talked about on Tuesday. Still no great clarity on when he will be back. And then they lost M.B. And the news appeared to be good regarding MB, no major structural damage, revaluation in a week, and that this is not something that would jeopardize his season or his ability to play in the playoffs.

But you never know, the revaluation in a week, they could say, hey, he's still not better yet. Like, we don't know a timeline. It's clear that the Simmons thing, at least just from what I gather from the reporting, the Simmons thing scares me a lot more if I'm a Sixers fan than the Embed thing. Because Embed, you know, it appears, as long as there's no big structural damage, then he'll be able to come back and I will have Joel Embed playing for my team. It may not be the case with Simmons because even there was just no great clarity on a timeline for that, Charks.

Yeah, and you don't want to rush Joelle Embed back. That's like the last guy in the league you want to rush back from an injury. for sure because I mean you never know you never know when he's going to get sick during the playoffs or whatever anyway you don't want an injury possibly you know being a reason that he could be out right yeah but the Simmons thing is scary because they're not saying anything really it's all very vague don't expect him back soon okay another injury uh that took place and I actually feel bad for Phoenix because I had mentioned Sacramento getting in the mix Phoenix had a chance to get in the mix.

You know, I mean, Phoenix right now, they're a game and a half out of the nine spot from Portland. And so, yeah, it would be a long shot, but you could. And Kelly Ubre, bad injury, and now they're going to be without him. And the numbers, when they were healthy, the numbers that they were able to put up when they found some lineups were actually very good. But they just, they've had a, they've had an injury riddled season and now losing Ubre for the rest is a killer. Yeah.

So what they were doing since like early January, they had started starting in McHale Bridges. So they were playing Rubio Booker in the back court, Ubre bridges on the wings and Aden up front. And those lineups were plus 20 and significant amount of minutes. I saw them come into Dallas and smack the hell out of the mouths a couple weeks ago with those, with those groups of guys. And without Uber, the whole thing kind of falls apart. And it's what you were talking about with the Warriors.

Not having those guys together just kills your team because you can't build chemistry. You don't know what you have. Now it's their lost season. And now you're starting to see with Phoenix, like, it's hard to build a good team up if you lose guys.

And now Booker's going to miss the playoffs again. And now he's coming into next year, next year kind of feels do or die for Phoenix with Booker, doesn't it? If they're bad again next season, the clock might start ticking. I mean, yes. I mean, he had to get in as a, you know,

if Lillard doesn't get hurt, you know, in the last game before the All-Star break, Booker's not in the All-Star game. And so, you know, if you're near five for him. Yeah, because then it is holding you back from getting individual accomplishment and you're not playing postseason basketball. And so how many years do you want to go doing it?

Yeah, and it's taken Phoenix probably four years to find. So they finally have a core with a young core. They have Aiton, Ubre, Bruges, Booker. And now one of those guys is out. And now next year, it's do or die. If those guys aren't all rolling together, then they're starting over again. Now this 10-year-old building product resets to zero.

Well, because then you look and you say, okay, who do you vault? And obviously this stuff changes. Look, nobody expected, did Dallas to have the record that they have, or Oklahoma City they have the record that they have, or the Grizzlies to have the record that they have. But it stands the reason that the Blazers could very well be better.

Like, look, they're not going to be worse when they bring back their guys. If you assume they get the Zach Collins's and the, and the Nirkages of the world back. And then the Pelicans stands the reason they could be better next year. The Kings. You know, these teams, the Timberwolves, these teams are going to be getting better too, right? And so now while you're, you found it and you're getting better, like a lot of these other teams are going to be getting better too, right? And so where do

you find yourself in the pecking order even when you do get better? You still might be the ninth best team, you know? Because other teams have good young talent too. It makes you wonder about Memphis. Like the assumption is going to be, okay, next year, year two with your year three with Jaron, and we'll keep building forward, but there are no guarantees. Like, every year is a new challenge. Every year is different. And it's hard to build success long term in the West for these young teams. Well, I mean, and look, Sacramento was ready to take the leap, wouldn't you say?

They added some veterans. They ended last season where they were kind of in the mix. And they ended right outside of the playoffs. But then they end up firing their coach and they do this. And they go and they spend stupid money in free agency. And then they bring in Luke Walton and they go do this trip. before the season that messes them up and then the buddy healed relationship

with the coach doesn't do well and they change their style because they were just flying up and down the court under Yeager and now they were slowing it down more under Luke Walton and then Bogdanovich you know is a restricted free agent and that they got to go through all that crap and they piss off buddy healed

in the off season because they don't you know give him the contract that he wants until they finally do and yeah like you say charts you never know wouldn't you say they were among the most promising. And then, you know, they ended up getting Marvin Bagley for six games. And Dan, Fox got hurt this year.

And Buddy Heald got mad. I mean, but if you had a core, look, there's very few I would have taken over them for young. You know, I mean, like, to me, if you got Fox and you got Bagley and you got healed in order to stretch the floor, like, you got to mess it up not to be able to build around that. And they messed it up. The margins are just so thin. And they got injured. Yeah, of course. And then if I look at like, to me, Phoenix and Memphis.

So that, the undercover trade with that was that trade where they sent Javon Carter for D. Anthony Melton. And that right there could flip those two teams in the standings. And Melon's been amazing this season. And that's a trade no one was talking about in the offseason at all. Yeah. No, Melton has been fantastic. Well, and also, you know, we'll see if Josh Jackson is able to have a

career, you know, the former number three pick. He's gotten to play recently. What have you thought of him, by the way, in Memphis? He's been pretty good. I mean, again, it's in losing efforts, right? And they're obviously not, they're not fully stocked right now. And so he's kind of forced into being able to play. But, you know, I mean, the hope is that the kid has grown up.

It's not his basketball talent. Well, what about a jumper, though? That was the concern, right? No. How has that looked? No, you're still not terrified. Right? Is he baking him, though?

Can he space the floor? He can. He can. It looks better than when he was a rookie, you know. That's good. But he's also not the kind of guy that you're closing out with the fury of hell, you know. Yeah. As long as you're like at least closing out at all.

And Phoenix has been left open all the time. Oh, no. And you obviously have to fix that in order to long term be able to a guy that can play. but I mean, he doesn't take them. I mean, geez, even in the few games that he's played with the grizzlies, he's taken less than three a game. And he shot crappy. So is he passing him up.

He shot crappy, but I mean, he is what he is. He slashes, you know what I mean? He's more apt to go to the basket. And there's still a place for guys like that. It's not, you know, it's not as prevalent as it used to be, for sure. But you find a way to be effective. And he's long and F. I'll tell you that.

Yeah, he's definitely an athlete. No question about that. All right, let's get to some of the other news that we wanted to get to. Utah made the switch. Okay, so what happened, Chris, with your guy? What was going on with that? Do you have any idea? The story went that Mike Conley was told at Shootaround

that he was going to be coming off the bench and he went home and he took a nap and then he came to the arena and they said, actually, you're starting and Ingalls is going to the bench. And so you never know. Like I've been through this before where sometimes, I mean, sometimes like a general manager, like a front office can get involved on this. There's sometimes where players can get involved in this. Like, I mean, here, I'll just give you a couple examples from my history of being around a team.

I have seen, and I'll give you two situations. I have seen one time when I was very young reporter, I got my head ripped off in a press conference by Hubey Brown, who is the obviously legendary broadcaster. And I loved Hubey, let me just say. But Hubey Brown screamed at me at a press conference because I asked him about starting, it was actually Bonzie Wells over Mike Miller, okay?

And so I said, Coach, I know. Some names. I know. Huh? Yeah. So I said, Coach,

I noticed he started, blah, blah, I brought up and he goes, you try to be a wise guy, huh? You a wise guy?

And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And he's like, yeah, you try to be a wise guy, huh? Real wise guy.

And I was like, what are you? Like, I, I'm, Charx, hand to God, I'm sitting there

befuddled. I'm like, I don't know what I did, but this, this, guy is like really mad at me. You know what I mean? And I'm young and he's intimidating, right? Because it's like, it's like an old professor, you know, sitting up at the thing. And he's like,

he's calling me out. And then everybody else is like kind of looking at me. And I'm like, I don't know what the hell's going on. So anyways, a little bit later, so the next game, I go and I used to do all the pre games and I used to do all the post games. Right. So I would go there in the recorder when the coaches like stand outside their locker rooms, right? Yeah. So come to find out. like after I leave the arena that night, a guy calls me. So Jerry West and Hubey Brown

have had this blow up over Bonzie Wells and Mike Miller. All right. Jerry West is the GM and president of the team and Hubey is the coach. They've had a blow up, like a knockdown dragout about this. Hubey's like, you know, I've been coaching for 100 years.

I'm going to play the guys I want to play. And Jerry is saying you're playing Bonzi Wells, blah, blah, blah. So they're into it over that, right? So by the time I get to the press conference, Hubey thinks I know that that's the reason that he started the guy, right?

He thinks I know and that now I'm asking about it. Now, to his credit, the next time I showed up to a pregame, he pulled me aside and apologized and basically said, you know, like, look, I was off base there, blah, blah, blah. You know, I didn't know.

You know, because I said, look, man, I didn't know anything. I promise. I had no idea. I just noticed that we had a different guy starting and I had no idea that there had been some knockdown drag out behind the scenes over this. But I got jumped at. So that's what I'm telling you. There's one example. The other one is where David Fisdale, when he was the coach, he took away Mark Gassau's captaincy in the middle

of the season. And you know that that led to him being gone, that that relationship went to hell in a handbasket. But there was a, there was like a practice one day. And then, a bunch of the elder statesman, Zeebo, Tony Allen, Mike Conley, all those guys. He calls them all in a room and he says, I'm taking away Mark's captaincy. And they say, no, do not do this. Don't do this, right? And then they came out that night and they had a different lineup and they had taken away Gassau's captaincy and whatever.

And so that is like, what I'm saying is that was like leading up to tonight. And nobody would have any idea how that happens. And so somebody, some reporter got the story that Mike Conley was told. was going to the bench. And something happened between then and game time. And I gave you two times of where I've known examples of that that had nothing to do with, you know, just a coach's, you know, change of heart. Like something probably happened. Somebody standing up. Sometimes an owner can get involved, you know, that can take place. And so hell if I know, but I know this. They tried the Ingalls thing off the bench at the beginning of the season. And, you know, and, you know,

Joe Ingalls was awful. And then they brought him back in the mix. And then when Conley was out and Engels started to look like old Joe Ingalls, you know. And so he ain't the one. But Conley may not be, you know, if you're a front office and you say, we traded Jake Crowder, we traded Grayson Allen, we traded a first round pick, we traded Kyle Corp. You know, we traded all this stuff. And we're paying this guy $30 million.

You're not bringing him off the friggin' bench, Quinn. Couldn't you see that as a possible scenario? Yeah, I mean, I could just see Connolly saying, I'm not doing that. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. No, he is not that guy.

Trust me on that. Okay. There is no way. That's what I was wondering. Oh, absolutely not. No. No. That is just not his personality.

He would never, Mike Connolly would never tell them I'm not coming off the bench. That's just not, that's not him. And even if he was upset with it, he would never let anyone know. that's the that's the kind of dude he is you know he's the kind of guy that he would just keep on and playing and he would not he would not let you know that he would say nothing about it

he would say coaching matchup whatever that's right he would just say i'll do whatever look clearly this hasn't you know worked like we wanted it to and i'm willing to try anything and i think any of us are willing to try anything to try to make it work that i i could tell you that's just quote word for word probably you know that is fascinating then what happens That is a nice little, uh, little mystery. Yeah, because who knows? Because it was, it was reported that he was going to be coming off the bench. And I thought, yeah, there was like a story in the athletic about it.

And they were like, oh, yeah, this move is going to help you Ingalls be a starter. And the story just flips. And it's like, actually, Ingalls come off the bench. Yeah. Something happened between that announcement and when it was actually supposed to come to, uh, fruition. Um, one guy I did want to mention here. we highlighted a rookie that doesn't get talked about all that much. The last time we did a show, that was Kevin Porter Jr.

Maybe Cleveland's got something with him. The most recent is Kobe White, who has... He was getting buckets. Really? You know, I saw him opening night and was incredibly impressed. It might have been one of his best games, seriously, like his first game. He was... I thought this guy is really a bucket getter.

a dynamic player too and he's got some you know some fire to him and I liked what I saw and obviously the season has not gone you just look at the percentages and they're pretty dismal but the kid has been blazing for the last week

how high were you on Kobe White coming in the draft and what do we make of this recent scoring spree and getting to play a lot under Jim Boylan finally see I was a big Kobe White I had a number four so I had it Zion Jah,

1, 2, Clark 3, Kobe, 4. So I really liked him coming out. And I knew you could get buckets. He's very, very fast, got good size.

I think the concern with him is, is he going to pass the ball? He's actually not passing at all this year compared to how he did in college. I think he was at like

four, four, five assists in college. He's at two, two and a half. And if you're going to be six foot four and you're not passing the ball, you're probably coming off the bench.

And so that's the question, right? It's like, because we know you can get buckets, but Caine is And your plan with Zach Levine, you definitely bear it distribute a little bit. So after seeing him, and we have not, you know, look, he hasn't even played 82 games yet. Do you feel good about that ranking?

If you could redo it, would you redo it? I'd still take him over Culver and Barrett, I think, because he can shoot. To me, if you can't shoot anymore, it's just hard to have you too high in these drafts. So you know your role at least if you can spread the floor. But is he going to be the player the Bulls need to get over the top? Unless he starts passing, it's hard to see. If you are a new front office, because there were rumors, even reports that came out of the All-Star Weekend, that, you know, Chicago, they were running around, Rysoorff was running around, you know, trying to find replacements for Garform and Paxson. So let's say they bring us in, right?

They said, you know what? Those guys on the Ringer NBA show, they seem brilliant. We should hire them. I mean, you know what the Bulls do. They might do something like that. Their track record. It's never out of the question. So now me and you get cop our flights and we go do our press conference.

Now our first order of business when you were me and you are meeting is all right. Now what are we going to do with this? We got to identify what is our core? Because we're not going to say it's Levine and White and Markan and Wendell Carter. Like I would start with Carter, who's obviously. obviously been out, you know, got injured again. Another guy that's lost a good portion of a second season. They need to replace their trainers.

Their guys always get hurt. It's crazy. So I'm a big Carter fan. Do we look at it and we say we want to, who, if we're running the bulls, we're building with what in mind? To me, I look at Chicago, they got to get somebody who can make plays for other people. Like, who on that team makes life easier for their teammates or raises their game? I need a guy who's going to get assists.

Yeah, because that's not really Satteransky either. Yeah, he's more of like a secondary guy. He's not very fat. Like to me, if I'm looking at these rebuilding teams, you've got to have someone like Jha or someone like Trey Young or like Luca, someone who's going to make life easier and raise the games of everybody else.

You need a playmaker. Who's my guy, though? Who's my guy? Like, all right, so let's do this exercise. Me and you were sitting down and we're saying, all right, we're going to now we're going to start keeping guys. We're lining them up all on a wall, and we're going to keep guys going forward. Okay?

So if I take – say I take Carter, right? He's probably the guy on their team that I was most high on of the young guys. So I'll keep him, right? I think he's totally solid. And I want him, right? Who's the – and you're probably taking Kobe White? So now we get down to – I'm assuming that. No, I mean, I take Levine over Kobe White.

You would? Yeah, I mean, Levine's a proven score. Like, that's value in that. Okay, then that's what I'm saying. Do you look at that as duplicates? You know what I mean? If you're saying, we got two guys, neither of which particularly make everybody else better, you know, but this is kind of what they do. And we got one of them that's on a rookie contract.

I don't know. I mean, look, you and I probably wouldn't work well together. Because these pods went okay. Come on. These are the discussions, right? You know what I mean? I'm saying, what do I need to Chicago? What do I need to go for?

I lose every night. Well, you still suburbals that I get buckets. That's valuable. Okay. We lose. I think I've got to get a passer. That's like, forget everything else. In this draft, I've got to get to me either lamello ball or this guy,

Killian Hayes in France. I want a big playmaking guarders and it passed the ball. All right. Because that's the floor for the team that's somebody who makes everybody else better. And then we'll figure it out all else out from there. Well, and how am I'm going to my mind. have fallen. Nobody cares about Markening now. He's a stretched big man. He's been hurt a lot too. He doesn't fit with boiling, obviously.

All right. Last thing. Speaking of college prospects, if I'm going out of my way this weekend, I'm going to try to catch a game because I want to at least have a good awareness or an opinion of prospects. Is there any that I should circle? Okay. The game with the weekend for sure is Auburn, Kentucky. That's going to be on Saturday. So that's got two guys. Everyone's. Everyone's. talking about top 10, and that's Isaac Acoro at Auburn, Tyrese Maxia, Kentucky. And I'm concerned about both players. I'd be curious what you think. So O'Coro is a 6-6-6 wing, but he doesn't really shoot very well.

And to me, I look at a guy, I'm not drafting a wing who can't shoot anymore. Like, when's the last time a wing who can't shoot has been a great NBA player? Look, and this is really, really, really testing me because now I'm having to change the way I think about players. in terms of guys that I've really liked. And it's a mistake that I've made over the course of the last couple of years because I didn't see it changing as drastically as it did. Now, you can suck on the – you can be a bad defender, but if you can shoot the shit out of the ball, you're going to get on the court, right?

And I always liked the guys that I knew at worst they're going to be able to defend, especially coaches will put you on the court if you're able to really defend. And that whole pendulum has swung, and that's just not so anymore. So, like, guys like Jeremy Evans, right, at Cincinnati a couple years ago, I really like Jeremy Evans. And it hasn't taken in Golden State. And Javon Carter, another one that you mentioned, I really like Javon, right? But, like, offense now matter so much more than being the, I love the pit bull type players, the guys that are doing anything they can,

the scratch and claw to do anything. But if they can't, if they can't bang down shots, it's a hard time getting on the court now. And it's all, I'm saying all that to lead up to this. You would probably trip out over this. So I've watched Kentucky as I have watched Auburn,

okay? You know the one that I really, at the beginning of the year, and I know he struggled recently. The one I, when I watch the games, and I say, give me that guy, it's the

friggin's kid. Oh, okay, yeah. Right? I watch him and I'm like, this guy, you want to talk about a foxhole guy.

I mean, you need a big rebound. You need a stop. You need somebody to slap it off of somebody's leg out of bounds. You need somebody to dive on the floor.

You need somebody to fight. Like, that kid is there for it. I love him. But he probably can't shoot good enough, you know? Yeah. I mean,

it's six two point. Con Carter's a slasher. What's the point anymore? Oh, no. I would have taken that kid. That Hagan's kid, and he may end up being a good pro. I mean, you never know, right? It's not like, what if people would have just discarded Kawhi Leonard because he couldn't, he wasn't some kind of great shooter, you know? Like, there's some of these guys that are going to be able to get in the NBA and greatly improve their shot. that they are once not guys that were dead-eye guys, but that now all of a sudden, you know, they can knock that shot down with regularity.

Okay, so Chris, you know what's interesting about that? So with Hagen's, this is a good example. So because Hagen's can't shoot, like, it's a pretty simple, like kind of thought process.

Because Hagen's can't shoot, he has to have the ball, which means everybody else around him has to be able to shoot. And that's the question about the guy in Kentucky, it's Tyree's. Maxie. So he's been stuck in a secondary role because he's a better shooter than Hagan's,

because they say we can't have Maxie with the ball, Hagen's off the ball, no one's going to guard Hagen's. So now the question is, can Maxie be better in an on-ball role than he is in Kentucky because he's not getting those reps with the ball on his hands because the other guy can't shoot. And that's why Maxi is being talked about as a top five pick, even though he's only getting like 13, 14 points a game and playing off the ball. Because the idea is if Maxie was somewhere else with a ball in his hands, he'd be able to do more. And the other thing is this, I will say, Cal Perry, who I've covered, as I did for many years,

this guy is a great evaluator of talent, okay? And there's a lot of guys that he doesn't even use to, at their maximum, that end up in the NBA, and they are much better than they ever showed us, even at Kentucky. And obviously, Devin Booker is the greatest of these. but also Gildes Alexander for the course of, you know, for his. And you know who the biggest one is?

It's Bam. Did anybody watch Bam and think? So I'm just saying this guy, he evaluates players and he gets a kind of player. And even sometimes where they don't look like, you know, they're all, they're cracked up to be at Kentucky. When they get to the NBA, they're much better NBA players. Now, that can be reversed because Tyler Uly. didn't have an NBA career and Kevin Knox has been

Kevin Knox I was going to say. Yeah, he's been abominable, you know, this season. But there are other guys, you know, so there are both sides of that, but generally the Kentucky guys, even if you don't see it completely at Kentucky, there's many times where you see

him at the next level and they're even better than they ever showed you. Yeah, Kentucky is, one of the hardest teams to scout every year. Because every year, all the roles change. Every player is kind of being stuck in a role that may not fit their games. And you're kind of have, you're really having to guess and evaluate and project forward. Like what I was saying with Maxi, like, you're just not seeing what he could be in the NBA

because of the role he has in this team. So you're having to look for like small flashes of games. So you're saying, okay, well, Maxx is playing not really a passer. But like on the one or two times he passes in a given night, are those passes good passes? how much you can project forward. And like you were saying with Bam, there wasn't much to go on. And you really had to watch Kentucky very carefully.

I didn't think Bam was that good because he would just roll under the rim of Kentucky, not really being much of a rule outside of a catching lobs. Now, I guess the NBA is real expanse. All right. I am going to go out of my way, and I'll try to catch that one tomorrow because if nothing else,

you get amazing sideline entertainment between Pearl and Calipari. That's true. Those two guys who have a long history of being rivals. Charks, I can't thank you enough for filling in for KOC the last couple of weeks. And being such a good friend to him also through all of this. He's had a tough time. But Kevin is going to hopefully be back next week.

And thank you so much for filling in while you have. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I just want to thank you all have a great little show here. I was glad to pop in. It was a real honor. But obviously, it's his KOC show. I'm glad he's going to be back. We miss you a lot, buddy.

And we're hopefully this will help, man. Getting back in the rhythm of work and stuff, getting back to your routines. Yeah, my man. Thank you to Bobby Wagner, as always for producing. If you dig what you're hearing, go give it a rating and review on iTunes, five stars, five stars. It really helps. And we will talk to you on Tuesday.