The Ringer NBA Show - Grizzlies Conceding Their Season? Plus, Pistons-Wolves Scuffle of the Year! | Real Ones

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

Logan, Raja, and Howard mf’in Beck are back with another Real Ones, and they start the pod off with the Pistons-Wolves scuffle that broke out over the weekend. Was the fight something to be concerned about, or was it overblown (01:48)? Will the suspensions of Isaiah Stewart, Ron Holland II, and Marcus Sasser affect the Pistons' playoff seeding? What’s the fallout for the Grizzlies following the firing of head coach Taylor Jenkins? What is the reasoning behind Jenkins’s firing, and why did they do this just before the playoffs? Howard makes sense of it all (20:42). Plus, the mailbag! (58:16)  Should there be new stipulations on the draft lottery to prevent tanking? The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hit the mailbag! [e-mail] Hosts: Logan Murdock, Howard Beck, and Raja Bell Producer/Audio: Clifford Augustin Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there, Howard, motherfucking Beck in the cut. Cliff on the boards. Victoria on the video. We have a fun slate today, but I think we're going to take a bit of a curveball onto the slate. We're going to talk a little suns, talk a little Memphis. But beforehand, we're going to talk about some crash outs. Raja, did you see the brawl in Minnesota between the pistons and the Timberwolves?

And what are your thoughts, sir? That wasn't, that's a, I mean, what am I thought? It wasn't a brawl. I mean, there was some pushing and shodding. shoving going on like yeah i saw it but what are my thoughts uh i mean shit happens right like you're out there competing um people get upset words are thrown around it's a little physical eventually somebody gets pushed more than they want to be pushed and shit erupts it was unfortunate that it landed where it landed in the front row um can't have that we've already touched that on this pod and

many other pods like that brings in a whole level of of uh liability that the league can't can't have But other than, I mean, other than that, like, I mean, I know in today's news cycle, like, we just blow everything up. Everything is like every loss, somebody's getting fired or they're not an all-star. Every win, a motherfucker's a champion or they're the best player on the planet. Like, that wasn't shit. It really wasn't. Like, it wasn't shit.

Like, they got, they got upset. Mofo started pushing and shoving. Oh, well. I love it. I love it. I love it mostly because, because, Because like there's so often, Raja, where like this is always about like, players from previous era is dumping on the modern game.

It's usually about like threes and everything else. It's more fun, though, actually, when it's like, you call that a brawl? You call that a brawl? You ain't seen a brawl. Go to YouTube and go or do it. It's the NBA Cobwebs account on the social media accounts. And you can see like what brals actually looked like when they were brawls and when like guys are seriously throwing down. And I wasn't in any yet.

Let's be clear. I wasn't in any either. Like by the time we came around, they were still like, you know, nobody was throwing real punches. Like, if they did, it was very rare.

But like, come on. By modern standards, this one was alarming in, in terms of how many sheer bodies were in that moving scrum and the fact that it fell into, it was a, dude,

it was a scrum. That was a rugby scrum. That was a rugby scrum, man. But that's the thing. Like, it's not, in the old days,

punches are thrown. And you, and you see, it and you see like actual like you know fists flying this was like just a moving pile of bodies that fell into the front row which is bad very bad don't do that don't don't get don't get fans endangered like primary thing here um and we've seen it not just mouse at the palace but like there was the nix nuggets brawl way back in the day my first season on uh not my first season wasn't even really a brawl either though Howard the nuggets nix but it bro when carmel no

kind of like smacked him and then ran all the other way from the court. Carmelo Carmelo backpedaled like a cornerback for like 50 yards to try to avoid getting punched. But Nate Robinson and J.R. Smith rolled into this into the first row seats at the garden. Yes. That's fair. That's fair. So yeah, that like that that happened and those guys were going at it. But you like anything that ends up encroaching on the fans and the seats is a problem. And there was just a sheer number of bodies here. And we have like, like, coaches being, like, J.B. Bickerstaff and Pablo Prigioni being ejected. So, like, it was a spectacle, but it's not like a serious, serious brawl by historical NBA standards.

And, like, the suspensions just came out, you know, and they seem about appropriate. And Isaiah Stewart's history has something to do with him getting more games than everybody else. It wasn't like, remember Kareem Abdul-Jabbar puts Kim Benson? Like, he got elbowed. Did you guys see this clip where he gets elbowed the chest? he takes a breath and just ah oh get into

he like side he like side snuck him right or like I'm thinking about other great braws this is we shouldn't condone this but I'm gonna just go there anyway like wasn't there like a time the Celtics versus the Sixers when like Larry Bird punched like Dr. Jay

and somebody like held Dr. Jay up or something to get punched or something like that but it was a brawl between the Celtics and the Sixers we don't have that no more. There were all kind of brawes man everybody was getting scooped and slammed and like punching like back in those days like it's just hey man it's it's really you know i mean nobody wants to hear this but like to to put that to put for it's hard to get both things right it's hard to get people to like you often hear the NBA fan all these guys don't

care they're out there just kind of going through the motions like you know you get that argument sometimes from some from some casuals and stuff like that but what i would say is you know it's it's hard to ask people to pick up how much they care and the level of intensity with which they play. And then at the same time, ask them not to get close to that line where emotions are going to boil over. Right. So like the harder you play, the deeper you get into a season, the more that's on the line, you know, typically the closer you get to the line of like, hey, man, like this, I'm going to,

I'll fight you for this, right? It means more to me now. Now, that wasn't a playoff game. But I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't all the way mind being close to that line. I agree with Howard. Like we can't be in the stands. Things like that can't happen. We don't want to be fighting every night.

But if you told me, I was going to get cats that were at each other's throats a little bit more. And because of that, I was going to get a couple of these, you know, every few months. I'm okay with that. Yeah, for sure. I think also, like, with the NBA. And I know, I know, like, shouldn't be in the stands and fighting. But I feel like specifically, I think it's because the Pistons game was. so just viral and everything that you can think about it.

Like, the Miles and the Pals was so monumental. It just effectively legislated it out and for good reason. But, like, the stigma that NBA fights against, say, like, hockey or, like, even NFL football and college football, it's pretty jarring, right? Like, it's really hard, to your point, Roger, to switch that, to switch that, that, that, flip that switch, right? where you're in such a competitive environment and you're literally like fighting for position and all these things to not expect the other thing to happen

and just turn it off and be like, it's a real, just weird thing to do and an environment to be in. But I do think that specifically when we talk about NBA basketball or fights in basketball, it seems to have a different connotation than when we talk about any other sport. That's always been weird,

but like that's a bigger conversation about like, you know, and stuff. I'm not going to get into that. I just say the psychology of it when, you know, the old guard, for the most part, when I came into the league, those dinosaurs still existed where like, yo, you don't really talk to the dude you're about to play against. Like, we're going out there to the jump ball circle and no one said a word to anybody other than like a fist bump or something like that because. The Kurt Thomas is, we're about to get, Charles Oaklees, you know? Yeah, we're about to get this cracking. Like, I don't want to be your friend right now. This is not, This isn't friendly for the next however many minutes we're all on the court together.

So that kind of like transition to more of a, you know, a brotherhood or fraternity. And I'm all for that. But it got it got to a point even when I played where, you know, guys would try to befriend you at the jump ball circle. I was wired the other way. I didn't have the, I didn't have the room, the margin for error to not be like razor sharp. Right. So like I couldn't be your friend and then go do what I thought I had to do to be effective.

So I was still kind of wired like that. And guys were already like, hey, man, let's just go through the mode. Let's just get this done tonight. You know what I mean? And I never understood that. Like, I never really got that. But I watched the pendulum swing all the way to like, you know, everyone's cool with each other for the most part. And that's okay.

Like I'm not saying that I have a problem with that in any way, shape, or form. But like, if you want cats to really get after each other, they've got to get closer to the line of wanting to fight each other than some people are comfortable with, if you really want them to, like, compete, compete. And ultimately, I think that makes the game more entertaining, to be honest with you, right? Like, not fighting all the time, but, like, a good competitive edge every game, I think is great for the game and the watchability of the game, to be honest with you. I've never been one of these people who, like, tried to glorify the 90s or even the 80s with all the,

like, oh, it was better when there was fighting. No, it's not better when it was fighting. Like, the fact that they've cleaned up the game over time, Like on some perverse level, it's entertaining when we see those old clips and we go, oh, man, look what it was like back in the day. But let's be real. That does not make for a better game. And the violence doesn't need to be part of the game. So we don't want to glorify that.

But I do think, I'm curious how Raja feels about this because we've talked about this on this pod many times. We're, you know, like living, playing on the edge, there's an advantage to that and sometimes in the necessity of that. And I think in the case of the Pistons in particular, as I'm looking at, this. Like we kind of know who the Timberwolds are more or less. The Pistons are new. Like this is, this is their breakthrough season. J.B. Bickerstaff is in the running for coach of the year. Cade Cunningham is in the running for all NBA. Malik Beasley's in the running for six man of the year. Like these guys are coming on strong and these suspensions are now hitting us at a time where they're right down the stretch. They're still locked in in a seating race.

Right? Like the pistons, as we record this, are 42 and 33 fifth in the east, two losses behind the Pacers, one loss ahead of the bucks. Those three teams are still jockeying with a couple weeks to go here. And the pistons now, because of these suspensions are going to be without Isaiah Stewart. Like, I mean, it's not the most, it's not like losing Kate Cunningham, who they've already been without recently because of injury. But now they lose Isaiah Stewart for, he's a been suspended two games. That's the announcement that came out just as we were about to hop on. Ron Holland suspended one game, Sasser one game, and then on Timberwolves side of it, Nas Reid and DeVincenzo, we just suspended a game. And the Timberwolves are still in a seedings battle too. Like right now, they're in, you know, a tie for seventh and eighth with the clippers. And they're only a lost back of the Warriors for sixth. So there's real world consequences. But all that's to say, Raja, what do we just learn about,

if anything, the Pistons and how, how, like, does this give us any insight into who they might be in the playoffs? Like, we already knew they were kind of a feisty team. The suspensions aren't great. Fights aren't great. But is there some, is there some silver lining here about like

the character of the Pistons in terms of going in as this young upstart in the playoffs and what they might be able to do? Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. Yeah, I think we kind of already knew it though Howard but if if anyone was unsure about whether whether or not they would stand in a paint and like be 10 toes down like that they they should know now right like and I think you know I've always said you give me you give me something like as a player right like if

I'm coaching a team and I have these two equal you know parts basketball players in terms of skill level and one of them is just way aggressive and over the top and is getting into some shit sometimes and the other one is kind of like meek, give me the overaggressive one, I think I could scale it back. I don't want the one that I, it's harder for me to put the fire in you than it is for me to dampen your fire. So I want teams and players, you know, provided we're not too far over a line to have that edge about them. And it's certainly a team that's trying to cut their teeth and make a statement.

And, you know, we were on here with Ben and we were, you know, we were talking about them being able to potentially win a playoff series. If you are a team like the Pistons coming into these playoffs, no one gave us a shot at it. It's us against the world. You fostered that mentality and that kind of like backbone all year. Like that's been that's been in their DNA cooking since the time they went to training camp. So, you know, the fact that it that it showed itself, you know, this late in the season is unfortunate for the suspension reasons. But I like them even more than I did. And I liked them already. Is that what you and Rashid were talking about on

Friday, Razia, where there's just certain players that just have whatever it is for the postseason that you don't really have to teach and don't really have an adjustment process as opposed to, you know, the other teams that could be fish out of water when it comes to the playoffs. Do you think that the Pistons

have shown you to this point that they can be ready for an environment like that? And maybe the adjustment period just isn't, is going to be slower or faster than and maybe another team that's fish out of water? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's going to be TBD, Logan. I mean, clearly, you know, there's a part of physicality

that comes with playoff basketball that they seem to be ready for, right? Like, you could see that, you know, in what they do, right? Like, they're not going to run away from the actual physical fight, but there's so much more that goes into playoff basketball and being ready to play at that time. Like, we're talking about concentration levels. We're talking about guys' ability, you know, within those concentration levels to stay locked.

in on a game plan to execute over and over again. You're talking about discipline in a way that you can have all that toughness. And like I was unable to do in that series against Kobe, not go over the line because now we're in a playoff scenario and I can't cost myself these games. So like there's a lot that goes into determining whether or not they're ready. We'll find that out. But I think the first thing you want to know about your team is that you're tough outside of like, you know, we're good enough to earn our seed is that we're tough and we're not

knocking it back down from a fight. And I think you know that about them. And then, you know, look, the playoffs, the playoffs are just a different animal. Like some people are going to sink and some are going to swim. You won't know that until they're in them. Okay. So we talked about the piston side of this. What about the timbrewell side of this fight? Like, what do you think is the out, what comes to mind when you see their point coming out of this, this, this, whatever, this brew. Ha ha ha. Does it bring them together? Or does it, does it show cracks in? what they even have going this season, which has been disappointing thus far. Personally, I don't think it, I mean, their cracks are their cracks, but I... Because they seem to be a team afterwards too, because they won the game. Yeah, and I think, but I think,

you know, whenever you have something like that, they kind of, someone has to stand up for somebody in a way that's going to cost them something real, and they take the opportunity to do that, that's galvanizing. Like, dudes, dudes understand the code. Like, we might be in a funky,

place as a team. We might not all be loving on each other the same way that we were a month ago. But if somebody from one of these other team tries one of my people out here on the court in a way that is disrespectful and I think he's in harm's way, then that's my brother. And I got to stand up for that. And sometimes that just reminds teams like, hey, we're family, bro. Like we're all in this together. Whether we hit a rough patch or not, when push comes to shove, I ride with you. And so I don't know what comes of it for Minnesota, but I don't think it's a fracturing moment for them. If anything, I think it would go the other way. I also think that Minnesota, despite whatever cracks we have seen this season or just the adjustment to Julius Randall instead of towns and everything else.

Like it has been a little bit of a funky season, but like guys, they've actually, they've come around. Like they're 11 and 4 over their last 15 with a net rating of plus 11. And their morale seems to be pretty good too, right? Like it doesn't seem like they're breaking apart at the seams. I mean, I'd rather see them fighting the pistons than each other. But yeah, last 15 games, and, you know, small sample size, all that stuff. But like last 15 games, 11 and 4, fourth best net rating in the NBA behind Oklahoma, Boston, and the Clippers. So two of those teams are, you know, expected to be in the finals.

And the Clippers have also been very good recently. So Minnesota's interesting right now. Like, to be where they are in the standings looks like a huge disappointment. and a come down from last season. But I don't know, man. Like, they're looking pretty good at the moment. And it's like the West is just funky, right? Like between that whole grouping, right?

Like, all right, we're probably writing off Memphis. We'll talk about them later. No one's sure what to make of Houston. They're going to be the second seat. And we're all still going to be sitting here going. Like, are we sure? Are we sure they're good? But like Denver, Lakers, Warriors, wolves, clippers.

I don't, I don't know how to parse that group. I think anything goes. And the Timberwolves have quietly been one of the hottest teams in the league post-All Star Bright too, right? Like they have the only reason why they probably haven't gone up in the standings is because, you know, the Warriors have been holding firm post-Jimmy Butler, right? Like, they have been playing well and been neck-and-neck to get out of the playing race. And, you know, we'll see what happens tonight with the Warriors.

And, you know, they have a tough schedule going forward. But, like, Timberwolves, they're only a half game out of the playing. or out of that tournament. So, I mean, they should be good. And whoever plays against them, they should get out of that. And we'll see what happens with the wolves. Hey, let me tell you about one of my favorite bets that Fanduel has right now. They're called Player Performance Doubles.

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Me and Raja and Sheed were like talking about it in real time and it was one of those things in a podcast where you're like, oh, this shit, this news went down. What the hell is going on? Here, here. Oh, my God, what the hell? This information is just coming in at the moment. But now we have a little bit more context, right? Taylor Jenkins has been fired. It was a big athletic story that came out.

It was really good. You guys go check that out. I think it was also an ESPN story that came out today about saying mostly about the same things. But the crux of the situation is this. Zach Climman in Memphis Grizzlies front office decided to gut Taylor Jenkins' staff and replace it in the offseason. And his new assistants implemented a new offense that did not play to the strengths of

John Morant, their best player and franchise star. And then John Moran gets upset and they fired Taylor Jenkins. Then in a twist of fate, put in a coach that actually championed the offense that John didn't like. So I'll start with Beck here. Where the hell are we with the Memphis Grizzlies? And where do we go from here? Where do they go from here with nine games left in the season?

I did make some calls about this in the last couple of days just to try to get a better sense of it. Because it was weird, right? Like you guys were reacting in real time on Friday going, wait a minute, there's nine games left of the season. Who fires their coach with a playoff-bound team still top five or six, whatever they were? the time with nine games left in the season. Like, that just doesn't happen. Like, people were scrambling. The stat people were scrambling. The Elias Sports Bureau was scrambling. Oh, is this ever happened in the history of the league? And like, it is incredibly unusual. And the warning signs were there, right? Now, there's a piece of this where it's just injuries. Jaws missed a ton of games. They lost Brandon

Clark again. He's really important for them. There's a, there's an aspect of us where if they just we're healthy, maybe we don't get to this point. But what I've learned over the last couple days is like, you know, and I haven't read all the coverage of ESPN. I saw the athletic story a few days ago. There were cracks behind the scenes. Like there just were cracks. There were fissures developing between members of the coaching staff itself, I think, and also between the coaching staff and the players and all of that was leaching into what was happening out on the court. And we can talk about the offense and we should, but it was, you know, defensively, which had been their backbone for a while where they really had just, you know, eroded so badly that

it became untenable. So what I will say about the timing is this. I was as shocked as everybody else. I thought it was unusual. And I actually thought in real time my first impulse was this is a mistake. Like, you've got some instability going on here. How does removing your seasoned head coach who has, these guys have all come up under and who has been one of the better head coaches in the league, who everybody agrees is going to get snapped up as soon as somebody has an opening this summer. Like Taylor Jenkins is not going to be out of work for very long. And I think he's still highly regarded in Memphis too, for that matter. But as much as I was shocked in the moment and as much as I thought this is more instability

by removing the head coach, I think where I've landed is this based on what I've learned. There's a realization that at a certain point this season has kind of kind of. of gotten away from you. I don't think anybody in Memphis expects that replacing Taylor Jenkins with Thomas, I think it's E-Sullo. I don't think anybody who, you know, is a rookie coach in the NBA, you know, no one's expecting like there's going to be some magical turnaround. This is not going to put them in the conference finals. They may not even be winning a playoff series. But where I admire what the Grizzies did is this. We see so often in this league where teams just don't have the conviction to do what needs to be done, or they know something's going the wrong

direction, or they just, they just, they're too worried about optics or the politics of it or whatever, they concluded that things were not going to turn around under Taylor Jenkins. So why are we waiting to meander through the rest of a regular season, get our butts kicked in the play in or the playoffs, and then fire him. We already know we want to make the change. Let's just do it now. So kudos to them for having the conviction to decide, we don't care how it looks that it's nine games left. We already know where this is going and we already know what our conclusion is. What are we doing waiting for the offseason? Ross, you want to take this or being professionals is what you're doing? Okay. Yeah, go ahead. Being a professionally run organization, bro. Like,

you're saying that firing him is unprofessional? Yes. So nine games left in a season. Yeah, right? With nine games left in a season, Howard, and you're admitting that like if you're the franchise saying this cat's not getting us better, we don't expect Issa, whatever his name is, To help us, like, there's not going to be a reset button that he hits and we're going to have this. Like, we're just saying we know we need to make the move. So we'll do it nine games before. If they're at Roger, Roger, by the way. By the way, Roger, hold on.

No, no, no. By the way, they gutted his staff in the summer, which meant they didn't fuck with him anyway, right? Already. So that's the time. That's where I was going to say, thank you, Logan. That would have been the time to do that. That would have been the professional move. But my bad, Howard, this is the only thing I'll say, if I were in that front office,

I would have never advocated for because I don't believe it puts, I don't believe that you can put a team in the best position to be their all in nine games in a playoff run. And ultimately, I'm trying to help them be the best version of themselves. And so I would not have advocated for it. And my understanding, I think that's fair. And like I said, my initial reaction was you're, you know, this is not helping you. Firing your head coach with nine games to go is not going to put you in a better position to advance in the playoffs. I don't think anybody there believes that either. I think this is more, I think the way we should interpret this is this is a concession. They've conceded that things aren't going the right way regardless. With Taylor Jenkins, without Taylor Jenkins, we think we're going to land in the same place within the next three, four weeks. And if that's the case, let's at least see what things look like. Because behind the scenes, again, this is my understanding of things, having had a few conversations.

My understanding is like things are worse than what we are seeing, right? So you're telling me it was untenable. If it was untenable, that's, I mean, that's where we're at. Yeah. Like players are pulling away. Players are not following the system anymore. Defensively, offensively, and I think especially defensively. So if you, Raj, if you're in the front office and you see and you can tell this much better

from that vantage point than we can from the outside, if you saw that your players weren't responding to your coach anymore, as decorated as that coach might be or as respected as he might be, as much success as he might have had with your team. If you've already concluded, it's done. He's cooked. They're not listening. Do you wait the few? Like, I could still make the case for waiting a few weeks because that's the normal

course of events. What I'm saying is like, I do admire the fact that they decided we already know the conclusion. So why wait? And we're going to lose the first round at best anyway. If you want to give a real one of the week for that, like, okay. Like that's a real move. Like I feel you like you.

But that's not the way typically business has done. in the NBA, and I actually do have some experience with this. Like I, my first gig ever back in the NBA after doing a little bit of like, you know, work on like TV and stuff like that was, was, uh, consulting with the team. I was brought in late in the season to, you know, come be around the team, watch practices, watch a game, get a feel for it. And then the report and what I was asked was, is this coach still have the ear of the team? Is this team still bought into the messaging?

And it was immediate. Absolutely not. They're out. And you could feel that. You could see that. You could sense that in the building. So if that's what you're telling me, then I do understand you saying, hey, this is, this is, this is, this road has come to an end, right? And that's essentially what I told this team.

This road has come to an end. And it was weirdly in and about the same exact time and part of the season. It was probably 10, maybe 15, uh, games left in the season. And that team didn't move. They just said, okay, we got it. We know we're going to be in the market this summer. If you're telling me in a world, Howard, I'm trying to be fair, that the gentleman who's getting the job right now is going to be one of the front runners to retain the job. And you want to give him a nine game plus playoff interview process to see what he can really do.

But I don't know that I believe that. If you were to tell me that, I'd say, like, okay, it's still kind of weird. Like I think Taylor Jenkins deserves the, you know, respect. if you will, to like finish the season out and see what you can do in the playoffs. Like I think I would argue that, but I could see the logic on the other side of it. But if you're just going to let this dude play it out

and then you're going to go out and get into the pool looking for someone with head coach and experience and bring them in there, I don't understand it. I got a couple of things on this really quickly. One of these things is I think we're speaking and we're not acknowledging the fact that the Memphis Grizzlies front office created this problem that they felt like they needed to solve at the end of the season

or at this stretch of the season. They're the ones that put this coach in place to be an assistant, basically cutting the legs of the head coach right in front of it while he stood, right? And when I heard about this and we got more context, I kept thinking about the Sacramento Kings and what they did in the offseason. Now, the Memphis Grizzly's front office is well, way more respected and rightfully so. But they essentially did the same. same thing where you place a coach as a figurehead, but you do everything to undermine his coaching ability. And there's something to be said for that around the league, right? Because whatever is going on in the building, perception in this league and perception in general is everything.

And the perception is, right now, for better or worse, is the Grizzlies don't know what the hell they're doing right now, because why would you put a coach and fire a coach with nine games left and then also put the new interim coach in a weird position to coach out these last nine games morale is probably shit right now and then try to give him an audition in the playoffs where it's a completely different game and they're going up they could go play up against either the lakers they could go play against the nuggets teams that have already have some level of championship experience with lebron and yogic and also are pretty much hitting i'm talking about the lakers or like hitting their

stride, that's such an unfair predicament to put them in, right? And then on the other point of this is you put in an interim coach that it would be one thing if there was an interim coach that the team loves. Like I'm thinking about Antonio Pierce of Marraders for that, you know, stretch when he first got the job and the players loved him and they rallied around him. I don't see that happening in Memphis. So when I get what you're saying, Howard, but when I think it through, I mean, this doesn't, one, the perception is bad.

is a league-wide perception that they are not doing what they're supposed to be doing and being professional about a situation, basically undermining a coach and not making him want of putting him in a position where he can't trust the people around him. And it's a bad position when a head coach can't trust his assistant coaches. Again, we just saw that in Sacramento. So, like, I feel what you're saying, but on the other side, like, perception is everything. And the perception is, Memphis don't know what the hell they're doing right now. We haven't gotten to the job part.

I think from the, I think you're right to the perception on the outside is, is you see all this happen and you just think, good Lord, what, what a mess. You know, you flushed his entire assistant coaching staff. Again, incredibly rare in the NBA that a coach is forced to turn over his entire staff at the direction of the front office. And that happened last year. And that was, that was a shot across the bow. That was probably an indication that maybe that was the time to fire Taylor Jenkins.

If you don't trust him enough to allow him to continue with the coaching staff that he constructed and you're bringing on all these other guys like that's a that's a bad sign anyway so i i i give you that and i think the perception of them has probably been a little bit skeptical because of that all the way through what what has just happened um but there's like there's some nuance here um and and i would just say like again if you've already concluded so they probably concluded almost a year ago right so maybe they should have fired him then okay Okay, they didn't. They kept Taylor Jenkins. They replaced all the assistants. The new assistants came in. They installed a new offense that de-emphasizes job, that de-emphasizes pick and roll. That's much more, you know, kind of ball and player movement. Like, aesthetically, maybe more pleasing, not more effective because you're just de-emphasized the best assets of your best player.

One of the assistant coaches that they fired with Jenkins, La Roche, was the one who, as I understand it, was the kind of the architect. of that new offense. Isolo, the guy that they've now installed, you know, he brought him in as a new coach, he's from Finland. He was renowned overseas as a pick and roll coach. And not just basic pick and roll, but as a really innovative pick and roll offense that he, he installs.

So not just dismissing anything you just said, Logan, but I will say in terms of like, are they in a better place now? it's a rookie head coach who just came to the NBA. He's not in a great position to succeed right now. However, we've already seen in his first couple games, and they've lost them both, but these are tough opponents too. They're going back to more pick and roll.

They're going back to where Jha has more control of the offense again. And maybe there's some balance in between, right? Like, I'm not a big advocate of like, just give it to the one guy all that. I hate heliocentric offense. I'm not a big fan of like 99% pick and roll either. I like ball and player movement. And I like what the Warriors do. But you've got John, he's your best player, and you should cater to his best talents.

And him standing in the corner or waiting for kickouts is not the best use of him at all. So they are, at least with this change, and you could argue maybe you could have done this without firing the head coach. Maybe you could have just said, why not have Esol's offense instead of La Roche's offense or whatever. But this is where they are. And I think it's going to at least put guys in a better position. and maybe they're at least engaged again, because again, from what I understand, there were some fractures there

and players were kind of going their own way. Yeah, that's interesting. Like, I didn't know the guy's background in terms of pick and roll and his ability to coach it, teach it and so on and so forth. It would be interesting to me. Like, I really would,

the question of whether or not when the job becomes available if he's actually in consideration for it, I mean, you're saying he's a, yeah, I mean, so I want to be fair to them, and I hear everything that you're saying, Howard. I would just go to what, to what Logan said, which is the dysfunction. Like, well, I would just take it a step further. Like, if you're going to deconstruct the old coach and staff, right, and you're going to implement a new offense and bring in a, you know, new staff that helps you get to those objectives.

And, and Jha isn't a part of those conversations, then either Jha isn't your franchise player moving forward. your estimation or you fucked up. Like that's not something that you take a player of Jaws, you know, ability. I'm not comparing him necessarily to Luka or Kobe or, but I mean, he is your Luka or Kobe or what have you. You don't bring in a new system and say, hey, guys, let's sit behind these closed doors as dudes who have never really done this and we're going to decide what Jaws going to look best doing.

That's not how that shit works, but you're supposed to go to John Moran and say, hey, John, listen, bro, we're going to bring in a new staff, like you to sit down and hear what he's got to say offensively or not. I'm pretty sure John Morant would be either like, yeah, I either like that or I don't like that. So I would say it's dysfunctional in that you even got to the point where you brought someone in and installed him and he then installed an offense that John Moran was like, what is this bullshit?

Right. Like that in and of itself is slightly dysfunctional. And I've said this before to owners in the NBA, to executives in the NBA. You got to be really careful. And I haven't said it to coaches, but any coach who might listen to this, man, fight for your staff, dude. Staffs are teams within teams. They're teams within teams.

And so like on any team, you could have a head coach. And by definition and by job description, he's the alpha. And you might have an assistant who's got an alpha personality and can't not have the alpha personality, right? And so the dynamics there, like, and the chemistry is a very, it's a very kind of precarious thing. It's like a chemistry experiment on any team and a coaching staff is a team within a team.

So you got to make sure you have the right people with the person that you believe is the right person to run the show. That was Taylor Jenkins. Let him have the staff. You can't be gifting people's staffs. I see it, you see it on different levels where people are like, hey man,

we like this head coach. You know, they did it to Mike D. Anthony to some degree. Friend of the show, Steve Curran them. Like Mike D'Antony, how would he like? They were telling Mike he had to get rid of Dan and he had to do this and he had to do that. Mike was like, I'm not doing that. I'm out because Mike knew his team. Now, you could say Mike didn't win a championship and all of that's fair.

But Mike was like, hey, man, I don't want you coming in here, you know, messing with my day to day. Those coaches spend so many hours together, bro. They're doing so much work together. They're together in an inordinate amount of hours. You want people that you like to be around and people that you don't have to fight for control with and people that understand your vision and are collaborative. and so you just got to be really careful when you do that. And I think all of that speaks to some dysfunction.

I'm going to be, I got to side with Logan a little bit. I understand what you're saying, Howard. I think this is a good time. Well, one, I want to acknowledge what Roger said in terms of like coaches. And I know Howard would agree with this, man. Like coaching staffs, it's like a circle of trust, man. If you can't trust your coaching staff, it's really bad for the entire team. And there have been a lot of coaches that have been fired.

And I'm not saying this necessarily for men. Memphis, but there's been a lot of coaches that have been fired because of some backstab and BS because they didn't trust a staff. That is a very common thing in this league, and I'm sure in sports in general. And that's something that you always have to look out for. And I don't know the situation and why. And Taylor Jenkins's role in the staff being cut, but, you know, it would have behooved them to have a bit more symmetry and trust there.

because I don't think we would be in this position right now. Either way, if they would have just made a decision. But I do want to talk about the jaw element of this. And I think Howard Beck is a great person to talk to about the Joss. I heard you guys name check me on Friday. Took me a little bit out of context, but that's okay. Now we're about to put you right back in the context. But I think one of the things, and to Roger's point about Jaya Morant,

supposedly supposed to be the franchise star, at least as the face of the franchise to us. But it doesn't seem like over the last couple of years, if you read the T leaves, that he is thought of in the same vein around the Memphis organization, right? And, I mean, there are reasons for that. And I'm looking at his basketball reference right now, hasn't played more than 67 games in a season.

That was his rookie year. Even his MVP season, it's crazy. Like, I thought he played more games. I thought there was a season where his MVP, when you got MVP votes, probably his best season in the 21-22 season when they went to the second round,

I believe. He played 57 games, right? He's not available. There's the off-court stuff that we've been seeing. If you read the T-Leaves Howard, is this Memphis saying, talking about what happened with Taylor Jenkins and changing the offense,

which is kind of unprecedented, just changing the offense, away from the state. style that your star player likes and expecting him to just go with it. Is there, was their president? And what, what are the T-Leave saying about how this came about for Jha? And is our perception that he is a franchise star actually reality or do Memphis think different? Ooh, I mean, look, in Jaws defense, his availability the last couple years has been more about injury than anything else.

There was the suspension. There were the incidents that led to that suspension. As far as we know, and it wasn't just the suspension, right? There was all kinds of stories, you know, stuff that happened with him and his buddies and the whatever Jha and that confrontation with the kid he played pickup with. Like, there was a lot of, there were a lot of alarming things, concerning things, I think, in Jaws' early career. it's been pretty quiet for the last, I'd say, I think, two years without looking up anything.

I think this is in his defense, like there's been a good stretch here where there is not anything to concern yourself with that job. I think he's put better people around him, right? Not even just like friends and stuff, but like, you know, security and like just an overall team around him that is better. There are limits to what, yeah, but there's a limit to what the franchise or the league can do on that, right, Logan? Like, you know, we can all sit here and say like, oh, you know, they got a clean.

this up, but like, you know, these guys are, they're grown men. They're going to do what they want to do. So I think like his image took a hit, his standing took a hit, the lack of availability and the injuries, like all of that has played a role in this. But like his playing style and his build plays a role in this too, right? Like, you know, Raja, you played with Iverson, like not the same, but like slightly built guys who play a super aggressive style who are always crashed into guys in the paints and like it's part of what makes them so much fun to watch like iverson was a blast to watch because of his fearlessness and so with same with ja but man that dude takes a beating he's on the court on his butt a lot and so yeah you're gonna lose games to that and because he's not a good

three point shooter you know that that that kind of limits how many ways you can attack and so i would worry about ja's longevity and his health long term um and I think that his availability, like all these things are sewn together. But he's still, he's your best player. He's a franchise player. Like, to Logan's question, like, is he the superstar that, that is ultimately going to be able to carry them on deep playoff runs or put them in title contention? I have my doubts. I think it's fair to have doubts at this stage, you know, what six years into his career. But I do think the Grizzlies are committed, fully committed to that core of John Morant, Jaron Jackson, Jr. Desmond.

in Bain, right? Like that, for better or worse, that's their big three. You can say you believe in that big three or don't believe in it, but that's their core. They've done a really good job the last few years of like finding like, you know, the Jalen Wellses and the G.G. Jackson's and like these, you know, kind of core rotation players who they find late in the draft or undraft or the G league, whatever, like they've done really well. And in a small market, you have to hit on those. So I think overall there's like a decent picture to be painted there. But I just, the question still comes down to like, do you believe in John Morant as a top five, top 10 type player in the NBA, which you need to win titles? Do you believe in that core of J. John Jackson Jr. and and Bain?

The West is tough per usual. So I don't know. I do think to the last piece of this, I think them addressing this now is a vote of confidence in keeping. John Moranton and trying to make sure that you don't lose him, right? And I think to the extent that the offense, for whatever reason, I think there were some wires crossed somewhere along the way here about what they wanted to do. But I think the offense, to the extent that it moved away from John, it's now moving back toward him for as long as this coach is in charge and probably under the next coach, like those are all probably good signs for keeping jaw happy, productive, and in Memphis.

When I think about Ja, though, like he's a very exciting player, Ross. but I haven't seen the transformation of his game, right? Like, he's still so relying on his athleticism and his will to play really, really hard. But the three-point shot is really alarming, right? Like, I think about a guy like Derek Rose. Now, Derek Rose had a lot more injuries, but he did eventually, in his MVP season, develop a jump shot.

Like, that's something that he did. And it's really concerning that Jaws is 25 years old right now and has played the league in a while, and it's been a claring thing. his, this has been his jump shot. And you see videos too. I saw a video the other day on YouTube just about like how quirky his shot is and just like how it's never the same of every time he shoots it. Right. Like it's not something that he has worked on.

And that is alarming. What does John need to do going forward to help the grizzlies take the next step? Because I think a lot does right on his shoulders. Like I think he needs, he needs to stay healthy and he needs to evolve his game in order to. to be that franchise star for years to come. Yeah, well, in fairness, too, Jha, because you're not wrong at all in terms of the shooting. I'll get to that, but I think the trajectory of that

was altered obviously by injury and by suspension, right? So, like, he could have, even without the development of a jump shot, through sheer athleticism, explosion, just, and everything that he brings to the table, continued to take steps in leveling that team up in a way that we just won't know because he didn't get an opportunity to, over those those years right and then you know as far as the shooting goes you know interestingly because he has been injured a bit like that's typically when guys start to realize that they got to change something right

like when when the superpower starts to go that's when you that's when you see guys start to level up the jump shooting like even lebron i i think you could argue hadn't put that level of work in to become as good as he is now earlier in the career he just didn't have to right like it was like He probably didn't get his jumper until like, oh, nine, 2010-ish, right? He was like eight years in the league before he, like, got a jump. Yeah, like, but he, but he, yeah, I mean, it wasn't that he was, I mean, he couldn't shoot, but like, you, you have these superpowers in there, and no one can guard you when you bring them out that it doesn't force your hand into developing other parts of your game

that people that don't have them, you know, kind of organically have to have just to stay around the league. And so I think Jaws at a point now, Logan, where, you know, he's always going to be, a player that has to have the ball. That's the way he plays, right? So, like, thinking that you're going to have him in any real capacity with someone else that would be the number one and just have him hanging around and becoming more of a spot shooter and sometimes catching go guy. Like, I don't ever really see that as what John Morant is going to do as a player. But he can continue to take strides as an offensive player. And some of that speaks to maturity, right? Some of that,

Some of that speaks to, you know, level of professionalism and understanding that even if you still have these gifts, the injuries haven't robbed you of them right now. Eventually, Father Time's going to catch up and you're going to need, you know, a counterpunch to all of the great stuff that is your, you know, knockout weapon. And so, like, you know, I don't know. I don't know Jha at all. I don't know anyone in his camp. I'm just a fan. I just watch him play. And if you were to, you know, take some of the things. things that he does organically and pair them with, with, uh, you know, some, some better, some better skill work from the perimeter in terms of shooting the ball and stuff. You just become exponentially harder to guard, bro. It just becomes so difficult for dudes who are tasked with staying in front of you, um, to guard you, right? And so he, he needs to continue to do that.

And quite frankly, you know, that's, that's, that's just the ascension of any star in the league who wants to win championships. you come in looking like one player. They're always, they all have superpowers. They just look different, right? Whatever that is, you continue to ride with that, but then you sharpen up all the other tools in your tool belt to the point where we can win a championship with you.

And that's, you know, that ultimately is going to be, that's ultimately going to be the deciding factor on whether or not Memphis with the core that Howard talked about. And I like that core. I agree with him on some of the pieces they've been able to find and the development and all of those things. but like, you know, Jha is the centerpiece of that. And thinking that you're going to,

you're either going to have to change that offense to play the way he wants to play or you have to move him. He does not work in any other capacity at the level that you would need to pay him at. You know what I mean? So which leads me back to Howard Beck, who, you know, said what he said in San Francisco. Is there anything you want to amend from that? Like, as we talk about, as we're a month or two months, later from there. How does what you said in San Francisco evolve now to where we are now?

How does it play a part into it? How does it change things? The floor is yours, Howard. No, it's fascinating. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because it's really not that important. But what I said during our live show in San Francisco, which was, again, an absolute fucking blast. Thank you all for coming out. I hope we do it again. I think we will. I just threw out there that in the course of talking to people around trade deadline week. and in asking people, especially in the wake of Luca, like, what else to keep an eye on and what else is rumbling out there? And someone just kind of offhandedly, surprisingly, to me, said, keep an eye on Shaw. And the rationale, I don't think I elaborated that day, but I think I told you guys maybe on a follow-up podcast because I went back to my notes and everything else about why this executive from another team had said this. And what they pointed to was exactly what we talked about at the beginning of this segment, which is the offense changed. Jah got de-emphasized. His numbers are down. His usage is down. His field evils attempts are down. His points are down. Everything's down. It doesn't look like a happy situation

for him with this offense. That was why this person said to keep an eye on that situation in the first place. Flash forward now a couple of months. And where are we? Well, they fired Taylor Jenkins and the assistant coach who had installed that offense, this guy LaRoche. And they have installed as an interim basis, a head coach who already you've seen it the first couple of games is moving the offense back toward Jha. I don't think this necessarily means that they were worried about losing Jha or a trade demand or anything else directly. It probably speaks to the more fundamental thing, which is that if you've got a player who's got a certain skill set and he's your best player, your franchise star, and you're not catering to those things, then maybe you've made an error,

which they have now looked to rectify. So to the extent that this connects back to what I threw out there, regrettably, because of the way it went viral, two months ago, I would just say... I'm not mad at it, Ra, are you? I'm not really mad at it. Well, you guys weren't the ones taking shit from a bunch of freaks on social media. We don't be on social like that. We'd be living our lives.

You'd be outside. I know, that's my bad. It's my fault. I bring it on myself. But yeah, like, they... There was a reason to keep... There was a reason for this other executive to say what they said at the time, keep an eye on things.

It was because of the way the offense had evolved and because of the way it had marginalized Jha and his best skills. And now that has been rectified. So I still think, you know, everything always bears watching because, you know, these things are fragile in the NBA. But I think to the extent that the Grizzlies have, you know, made it, you know, drawn a conclusion earlier than the rest of us, it would have expected it.

but drew the conclusion, we're off on the wrong, we're heading the wrong direction, offensively and defensively. We need to fix it. We're firing Taylor Jenkins now. We'll see where this goes. If anything, I'm not saying that JAA was necessarily going to be asking out the summer anyway, but I think if anything, if you were going to put this on the Joss scale, how alarmed should people be about the possibility that he might be unhappy and want out?

They're in a better place now than they were a few weeks ago. because now the offense is moving back toward him. And presumably the play will follow too. Like I don't think we should put too much stock in their first two games. The first two losses under the new coach because, you know, they're playing really good teams. So there's not a lot of time. Seven games left for them to try to find a different rhythm. That's hard.

We'll see. Anyway. Not a lot of time. Seven games. Yeah. Roger fucking hates this timing. of this thing. I really fucking hate it. I really do how I tried so hard.

I tried so hard. I like I tried so hard. I appreciate conviction. Whoever he was on the ball with Roger, he was posing bail for him so bad, bro. I'm like, cease. He was twisted. Now listen, guys, I have this is 28 seasons as you know that I've covered

this league and the thing that frustrates me most as an objective observer who does not give a shit who wins, who loses, who succeeds, who fails. What does frustrate me is seeing teams that are just fucking flailing all over the place, have no idea what they're about, no particular values or convictions. The owner is letting people, you know, flail in the breeze. And look, not for nothing,

credit to the Grizzies for this much. They, from all reports, fired Taylor Jenkins in person. There's one up on the Sacramento Kings who did not. And then their GM didn't talk for a long time, but Zach Klyman got out there and talked to local media for a couple of minutes, whereas the Kings, from what I gather, kept anybody from speaking to it for like two months until Monty McNair finally addressed the media after they made the Deer and Fox trade. Like there's, there are right and wrong ways to do this shit. And the Kings did it wrong. The Grizzlies, like, these are low bars. A little less. A little less wrong. The Kings did it wrong. That's fine. But I also, again, to the conviction point. I can see that though. Do like act went on on your beliefs and don't worry about the

rest of it. And I think too many teams are, are just afraid of doing anything. We did it. Fuck you. You can get with that message, right? I mean, yeah. I mean, y'all ain't had that same energy when Nico traded, uh, uh, Luca. Because it was a catastrophic mistake. No, I'm just saying. I'm saying, I ain't get no, I could, I could, I could agree, but I ain't get no luck. Hey, yo, act on, act on those convictions, bro. Hey, there's one thing I can't stand. Is conviction? I'm talking to Howard right now. Act on those convictions. You're talking to Howard right now because this is a rare episode where me and Roger have been locked in the whole episode.

Just like, yo, I agree with you. You're talking to Howard right now, Razzie. You're not talking to me. I've been locked in with you, this whole fucking pod. We both looked at each. That's all I'm going to say, Howard. That's all I'm going to say, bro. I'm basing this on what I've gathered.

That's fair. But also, I'm not giving you credit for a great conviction if your conviction was colossally stupid. All time. All time, stupid. All the time, stupid. All right. Okay. Let's get a handle on this. We will not be talking about the Phoenix Suns today. Just running out of time right now. I'm sorry, guys. But they're too depressing anyway. We don't need to bring people down. The Memphis Grizzlies being depressing. But read my story on the Phoenix Suns called the dying embers of the Phoenix Sun's historic flameout. Only on the ringer.com. Jesus. Speaking of convictions that went wrong.

Yeah, right. I feel a bustard long enough here to not have to not have to say bad shit about the sons. I did my job. I did my job. Bro, before we get to a mailbag, Ross, and yet you somehow shoehorned in your defense of Nico again. Good job. No, I wasn't defending, Nico at all. I'm not dependent.

I'm not defending. No, what he did with Nico is he sees Nico just down bad. He's like, he does say like you was wrong, but he just gave him a tap on the shoulder. Like get better next time. buddy. Yeah, that's my guy, man. I can't defend that.

But Roger, the trick is there will not be it next time. That's tough. Cliff. What's going on, buddy? You're talking about crashouts.

You know, Philly's the land of the crash outs. No, it's not. I thought the Bay was. Huh? The Bay. How you make that face? Hey, I played, I played, pre-pod.

You guys don't know anything about this. I sent Cliff a, a song by. I drew down and he was just very, very, very, very flabbergasted by what he heard. He was just like, I love the Bay Area sound, man. What's going on, Howard? What's up? What's up?

What's up? How are you feeling? How are y'all feeling? I just got over a week of COVID. So other than that. Man, that's still a fucking thing, bro. Ew. It's still a fucking thing, dude.

I finally tested negative this morning. Two people are bound in this pod. Rod's mad because he's not on vacation no more. He just started, he was like, I'm here. fucking Monday. So what the hell I'm here? And then Howard's just mad because he's, you know, just mad because he's Howard back. All right. Let's get this first one.

This is Drafix from Charlie. What-to-do, real ones. Welcome back, Logan. Congrats to you and Miss Lady on welcoming New Life to the World. I'm a father as well, two boys, four and seven. Enjoy them now because it only goes downhill from here. L-O-L, just playing. Congrats, bro.

No, he's not. No, he's not. I would like to hear the panel with an answer to a suggestion to help with tanking. I'd like to hear what Howard MF and Beck thinks. What if you have to win a certain amount of games to be eligible to have your team's name and a hat for certain picks? In order to be considered for the first three picks of the draft, teams would have to at least 20 wins. With picks four and five teams would need to at least have 15 games. Picks six through 10, teams with 14 or less wins.

They could be dispersed among those teams from a drawing of some sort. Kenny Smith said on inside the NBA, you could at least get 25 wins in the league just from playing hard. I agree with that. Roger, do you second that? Philly has shown us, sorry, Cliff, L.O.L. Just because you're tanking or positioning your team for better draft capital, that the number one pick will always bear fruit. That pick is not always going to be Cooper Flagg, Braun, Wembe, K, Cunningham, Ant Man.

It's no guarantee those top three picks are going to turn the franchise around. But if those picks would go to a team that has some sort of direction instead of betting it all, one guy to turn them around, I think it would make a world of a difference in gameplay. Raja is always telling us that it is hard just being the guy, night in the night out if and when that draft pick doesn't work out like intended he said attended but you are still stuck at the bottom just my thoughts y'all be cool real ones yee bay area lingo whatever that means ah um i don't know how to do it i don't know how to do it big uh gee that's what i did um big raja fan i like the idea i'm not mad at it i like the idea

maybe you needs to get hired by the competition committee that's that sounds fun i like that I mean, it promotes more competition. And we actually see to get to see rookies on, like, good teams. You don't get to see that that much. What was it? What was, could you give me the number of games again, bro? It was a long question. So I kind of like, yeah, yeah, I got.

All right. So for the number of games here, let me run that back. So it says here for, in order to be considered for the first three picks of the draft, teams would have to at least win 20 games with picks four and five teams would have to win at least 15 games, uh, pick six through 10 teams with 14 or less. And they could be dispersed among those teams from a drawing of some sort.

I'm, I always like competition. Look, I mean, play basketball for a living, okay? I'm not the most intelligent person in the world. So trying to figure out how to fix all these broken,

like, shoot yourself out some, you're fucking smart. Give me some grace. Give me some grace. Give me some grace. I'm not going to let you do that. But,

but I will say this. I'm always for, I'm always for competition. for the prize, right? So if the number one pick is the prize, then I'm always for a more competitive landscape to get that. Like, I just think that's healthier for teams and for leagues. However, if because you're just so bad

and the players that you have on your team, like aren't good enough to get it done, how do you get a team out of that space if they can never have a shot at the best players? So I just I don't I don't have the answer to that right like you're you're stuck in this spot if you're a bad team of you can't really it's hard to entice good players to come there via free agency in any real capacity because you guys are a dumpster fire right no one wants to go there if you're not going to get a shot at any of the best talent coming out in any given year I don't see how those teams don't just stay mired in the shit that they're in so like I mean I kind of like it but at the same time I don't I'm kind of iffy. The whole reason we have a reverse order draft is to help the teams that need it most, right? That's the whole point of the exercise, right? But the second you make it like if it were purely reverse order as it once was once upon a time,

then the worst team always gets the best player. And so now you have incentive to be really, really bad and you have the race to the bottom, right? So you get the lottery. Then you get different versions of the lottery and all the different reforms over the years, right? That's how we got here. But the league still has an interest in trying to make sure that bad teams have an avenue to get better. Whether it was because injuries, whether it was because they had a star who retired, whether they're just in a small market, nobody wants to go there.

There's only three ways to get stars, right? Draft, trade, free agency. Superstars don't go to certain markets in free agency. And they might keep you from acquiring them in trade, too, by saying, I'm not resigning with you. So the draft is the best way for smaller markets or colder markets, less attractive markets to get guys. The league's got to balance all of this. So like to the email from the listener about trying to incentivize teams to win down the stretch to dissuade tanking, there have been versions of this batted around, right? There's the whether you lock it in at the, at All Star or a few weeks after that, whatever, the losses matter before that, that certain.

point and then the wins matter after that. So now your lottery balls are connected to how much you win after, say, whatever, March 1st. And you add that to your losses before. Like, there are stuff like that that people have batted around over the years. And they're all interesting and they all have some merit, flattening the lottery odds even further so that there's even less incentive to be one of the worst teams. But now there might be incentive to go from 10th to 7th or from just inside the playoff range to just outside of playoff range. So you're constantly, every time you, tinker, you're just moving where the inflection point is or where the incentive is to maybe lose in March and April instead of winning. So it's a really delicate balance in fairness.

And the league has grappled with all this over years. I will just say, and I put this line in my story about tanking last week on the ringer.com, people can go check that one out. But this is not the worst we've ever seen, right? The mid-2010s, when the process was going on in Philly and a lot of other teams were doing various things, especially the multi- year tank. The league freaking hates the multi-year tank that like the Philly like the Sixers did. I mean, damn.

But you get it every year. Every episode. It's your team that is at fault for all this. The branded tank? The branded tank. That didn't work out right now. It didn't work out bad though. Like, you know, you got two franchise stars.

No, I always say it worked. Like you got M.B. and Simmons. That M.B. can't stay healthy and that Ben Simmons like suddenly forgot how to play basketball or whatever and had back problems. It did work. You got two franchise studs, and that's the point of the exercise.

So teams are always... And you had more... I mean, you had the Markell Fultz. They could have... They could, I mean, they would have produced. But you know what I mean? Yeah. No, you're going to have misfires.

The whole thing is, the draft is a crapshoot to some extent. You're going to have misfires. So when you give yourself more shots at a top three pick, that you can have misfires like Okafour and Fultz and still come out ahead of the game with Simmons and Embed.

and, you know, who knows, if they had just kept Jimmy Butler years ago, where things might have gone. But anyway, sorry, Cliff. There's, there's, the incentives to tank are always going to be there. This is not the worst version of what we've seen. But when you have teams like Toronto and Utah and others,

where they're literally like benching guys to start the fourth quarter so that they could put their G league players out there because they're trying to make sure they lose the game. Like, that's not good for the league. I don't, like this stuff, I don't handering over this stuff. I'm not pro clutching. I don't really care, but it's a problem for the league because the league feels it's a problem for the league. They have an image problem.

They have a people turning off their TV and complaining that there's nobody worth watching in March problem. They have teams complaining about each other as they out tank, try to out tank each other and them sneering at each other problem. Like, this is an ongoing concern for the league. It's ongoing conversation. I have no doubt the competition committee is going to be addressing this in full in the offseason. I won't be surprised in the least if we see further reforms by next season. All right, good stuff. Blame the Sixers.

Next question. Pistons and Wool's scuffle question. This is from Robert Bruza. Hey, Rowan's, Pistons fan here. I was watching the Pistons' Will's game when the squab will happen. And like most fans, I honestly felt defensive of my team, the Pistons. When I'm mostly interested in it is that Dante DiVincenzo seemed really focused on Ron Holland, really interested in trying to flex and dominate Holland.

be the tough guy. Common sports thing. But Dante DiVincenzo is 28 years old and Ron Holland is a rookie 19 year old. Obviously they are illegal adults, but I think it is weird and inappropriably aggressive to target someone with that kind of age gap. Holland seemed a little bit more shaken up after the scuffle, which makes sense to me. Roger, what do you think? Is there any additional responsibility for a 28 year old in the league versus a rookie when it comes to violence on the court? Does Dante DiVincenzo get cred for bullying a 19 year old? Am I making too much of the age gap? Thanks, Robbie B. Let's go to the crash out correspondent, Roger Bell. Wow. Robbie B.

No, dude. Like, you're in a professional basketball league, homie. Like, you old enough to be here. You old enough to get these hands if push comes to show. So just know that. I don't. Squabble up. I mean, bullying is a real thing.

Like, it's a real thing. So, like, I can't apply it in this context. Like that's a step too far for me, Robbie B. Whether he had something going on, or whether they had something going on that caused him to be more of a target in the eventual like scuffle than anybody else. Like I can't really speak to.

Like I didn't see the whole game, but I don't see it. No. Like we're out there. I can't worry about how old you are, yo. Hey, let me see your birth certificate real quick so I can fight you. No, yeah, that's like being in the club back in the day

and shit starts popping off and you got to ask somebody like, hey, make I see your ID real quick before? Where does bottle get hit off my hands? I can't worry about that right now. So no, I don't see it as that. I do understand being a fan of the of the Pistons, like, you know, fans.

Bigger picture, that's always so fascinated in me is how, like, two fans from different sides of the, from different sides can see the exact same thing and just come up with these two, completely opposite arguments as to why it happened and who's at fault and who did what. And like an impartial person sitting there is like both of you guys are crazy. Like that, that shit just happened.

Like it just happened. We talk about somebody getting bullied by a 28 year old because he's 19. Robbie, thanks for listening. I love you. I ain't mean to like, but no, no. You out there on an NBA court. Now, how about this though, Robbie, to just, if Dante DiVincenzo is playing at like, let's Villanova in the summertime.

And there is a 19-year-old that's still in college. And he's hooping. And Dante DiVincenzo runs up on him and starts, you know, trying to fight him in that context. Like, I could see that a little bit. Like, right? But we're in the same week. And John Moran do that same?

Yeah. That's what you're going to say that. John Morant did that in his part. Like, wasn't a young boy hooping at his crib or something? Yeah. Yeah, that's different for me. But when we're out here on the same court, like, getting paid by the same people, representing the same league.

I don't see the age gap as being any kind of factor in it. I personally. One more question. Let's see. This is really random. This is from Buster. Buster Buzzynski. NBA player heel turn.

Logan, you might be good at this one. In 2025, John Cena is a bad guy. Who in the NBA has had a hill turn lately? Best one I could think of is Kevin Durant. I don't agree with that. But from the guy who played Madden with school kids in Seattle to now been a heel for years. Big fan from day one, Mr. Bres. My boy's name is Buster Bresenski.

That's fire. Yeah. Yeah, that's what so? That's fire. By the way, I don't think, just me person, I don't think Katie turned hill. I just think he's just fed up with the BS. I think that, I think everything that Katie has done in that way is kind of just been like whatever the media environment has suggested he is at that point.

Like, he really just wanted to come to debate at who. Like, I think if you're, I think if you. asked him in the moment and after he really just wanted to come to hoop. And then everything went the way it did. The last heel turn from a player, was it Jai? Is that a heel turn, though? I don't know.

Is that just somebody crashing out? I mean, no, like, I'm deaf of yours. Both, right? I mean, Braun, I guess was a heel turn. Yeah, I was going to say. I think Bronn in 2010 might, like, consciously became a heel because of this, right? Like he just, which made it fascinating, the move, all the more fascinating. I was trying to find something more that was more high profile, but like, I think that's what it is.

That's also 15 years ago. Like, is there anything since? Nah. Who? Oh. Like, could it be from like a owner or franchise that's like not necessarily a player? Like could a franchise have done like a crazy hill turn or like a move or something? I'm not sure.

Oh, oh, Nico Harrison. He'll turn. I'm signing off. Goodbye. All right. That was another episode. That was another episode of Realwoods. I am Logan Murdoch.

That is Roger Pell. That's Howard motherfucking Beck. Cliff on the boards. Victoria. On the video, man, is a great episode. Talk to you all on Friday,

me and raw, and potentially a special guest. I, all this shit. So, Bye. Must be 21 years and older and president's select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and older and present in D.C. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RGhelp.com.

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