The Ringer NBA Show - ‘Group Chat’ — Anti-Melo, Pro-Kristaps, and the Lavar Ball Conspiracy (Ep. 160)

Episode Date: November 9, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier, Haley O’Shaughnessy, and Paolo Uggetti discuss whether they are hyped or concerned about some teetering teams (1:59). Then they debate some hypothetical coach trades (29:19) and play another round of Take Tank (37:04). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Basketball is very good. The Rockets are better without Chris Paul. Janus will win the MVP. What if Kyrie Irving is actually God? Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to NBA group chat full house today. As always, Justin Verrier. Hi friends.

We also got Palau Getty with us. What's up? And Haley O'Shaughnessy. Hey guys. Haley's coming off the night shift. We do these posts every night called NBA in case you missed it. And Haley was just telling us about how she's now becoming non-nocturnal animal, where she's like, I need to go get like dinner at midnight because I'm so jacked.

A steak dinner. From Minnesota Golden State. Yeah. And by the way, speaking of that, I think that we would be amiss if we didn't bring up, take Jeff Van Gunny's lead and bring up China at least 37 times during this podcast. You guys got any China notes you want to drop? Anything? Love the food.

Yeah. Yeah, Freely Angelo in 2017. Well, maybe. I mean, yeah, I bet like whatever he did, it probably won't. Do we want to wait into Chinese criminal justice? Louis Vuitton. They were in a Louis Vuitton shop. I remember I saw a ball family, like, whatever that Facebook show is,

and they were getting like Ferrari. Yeah, that's right. Good thing he's stealing that. Very on brand for the big ballers. Today on group chat, we're going to do a little bit of hype and concern for various teams. You know, there's so many teams bunched together right now. It's kind of an exciting moment. I can't remember previous seasons, but it feels like usually there's a little bit more separation

at the beginning of the season. And this year, everybody's 6 and 4, 5 and 5 or 4 and 6, and then there's the Hawks. But, you know, there's a lot of teams all grouped together. They look good one night. They're like bad one night. So we're going to try and see who we should be hyped about, who should be concerned about route.

We're going to talk a little bit about those bad teams. We're going to pick our poison of those two-win teams. And later on, we're going to do a little bit of some creative coaching trades. I don't want anybody to lose their job, but I just want to move people around a little bit, get some new voices in the room. Spread the well. Yeah.

All right. Let's start out with this hype and concern. Last night, Minnesota, I thought, played admirably against a KDLISC Warriors team. In the first half, sure. I thought they looked fine. I felt like the third quarter was like when the Warriors pretty much became the Warriors. They're now the president. It's like customary now.

You know, they start slow, and then it's like once they get up by 15, and it's like, okay, game over. A lot of bad transition passes. Steve Kerr loses it once a game. There's like some Nick Young Javille on the court at the same time. I can't believe that my life is real. And then they open up like a 17 to 2 run and it's over. I want to ask you really quick because you watch the game, right, Haley? I mean, we all watch every basketball game.

Every single one. Just the vibe at Oracle, a little flat? The vibe at Oracle? So here's my thing. That's what you want to bring up. Kerr has been talking about, I will get to the timber walls, but Kerr has been talking about the mental fatigue involved in this run that they've been on and how it's spiritually and mentally they need to replenish themselves.

but I wouldn't discount the crowd. You know, usually at Oracle, it's just like so hype, especially around those big games. This is a national TV game. Do you think that the fans in Golden State, to some extent, are a little bit like... Freaked out? Or no, how do you...

Like, they're just like kind of used to the riches, man. I don't know that that's what I would be concerned about coming out of that game. Maybe they have too many rich people in the stands and they can't afford to get there. I saw L. Adams there. And I was like, does he have to pay for those seats now?

He was kind of high up, though, right? He was pretty high up. And I wonder how many times he has to go to those games before they're like, all right, can you pay for this? I'm sure that they're a little weirded out and not used to this. But it's like once the third quarter came around, it's like, okay, I remember this. Right. You know, this is what feels right.

And also, I know that you guys said, like, okay, the Warriors come around the third quarter after they start slow, but also, like, any Wolf's fan will tell you all last year, the third quarter was when they collapsed. I was kind of looking forward to a close Wolf's game. they've been pretty good in the clutch this season, or at least they've been competitive. It looks so much better, like dramatically better than last year in the fourth quarter. But the game was pretty confusing last night, especially since they looked great the first half. They had a lot of energy, especially on defense.

I thought they were doing really well. But, man, Jimmy Butler just did not have a good game. Yeah, what's up with him? He seems like he's the guy, if any of them, who hasn't really fit in with that team. I actually would not worry about him because I think that if you look at statistically where he's at, You know he's not really averaging that many points, but he is like really their caretaker. And he is making it all happen.

We brought up before how he allows for Andrew Wiggins to have these open cuts. That's absolutely true. I think that last night what happened with their offense was it kind of exposed that the Timberwolves, when they're not like ball sharing, they are a one-trick pony with like three ponies. Yeah. It is total isolation ball and that is not going to win games. And they don't shoot well from three.

I think the stat was that the only reason they were in the game is because the Warriors had, I don't know, like 13 turnovers in the first half or something like that. So if there's no other way for them to, you know, improve the three-point shooting, then it goes back to your point. Like, they're just, like, a bunch of guys who can do one very specific thing. Well, yeah, I think the problem is they're also just not taking threes. And I look at, like, the outline is of a team that Tom Tibido coaches, but yet he's not getting the results that a Tom Tibado team normally would. Yes. I never know how to understand teams that are like, they're seven and four, but they have a negative point differential differential. It's like, when that happens, I'm just like, okay, like, wake me up in 10 more games. But you were saying, like, the inverse Tibido, it's like a bizarreo Tibido team. Right. Yeah. And I think I looked at the day, data before this, and it seems like their first unit is really good. Like, I thought Taj might not have been the best fit for them. I thought he's a little bit more of an old school player, but he's hitting some three, so that's worked. The first unit is very good in playing way too much.

A lot of that is Tibido. A lot of that is because their backups are very, very bad. Like, you have Jordan Crawford trying to run your second unit in 2017. I just don't know where you're going to get that. A little bit of the wizard syndrome. Right, right. But there are some good signs, but with their second unit, it's just not strong enough. and I think he needs to not make it so separate.

For example, like, Jamal Crawford and Gorgie have a really good connection that's very evident. But the thing is, you can't just exhaust the starters and then, like, bring in this second unit that, like, is all Shabazz. And he's trying to save the game. It's hockey units, kind of hockey lines. Yeah, and I think also just like you watch, I mean, obviously the Warriors are like disproportionate. And we can get off the Wolves in a second. But there's a disproportionate amount of talent on the Warriors compared to the wolves. But the Warriors have a system in place where guys like Nick Young.

can really help your team whereas the wolves like you're saying Jordan, the rookie Yeah, they're like Shabazz you are now Jimmy Butler It's almost like the warriors Like unless they have to They're not relying on singular talents

While the wolves are by far relying on Their singular talents like bawling out And weirdly talent seems to be a little bit left out He is not the most forceful Unicorn I will say that He's not a unicorn I would be worried about barging down the door Kevin O'Connor wrote about him this week and it was more about his defensive struggles

But do you like what you're seeing from him offensively? I mean, the numbers are there, obviously. Yeah, I think Kevin brought up a really good point about him, not only on the defensive end, but just how we look at these sort of guys. You can have all the talent. You could have the entire package, even with talents. It's like intelligence is there. He's a smart player. He does everything right. But there's some of the nuance loss in his game.

And I wonder if the success of Anthony Davis has accelerated, like, what we expect from him. But at the same time, he should be better. Like, I still contend that he should be in the MVP conversation. And the fact that he isn't there, I think that's what's keeping them between a team that's seven and four versus a team that gets just completely blown off the floor by the Warriors. Let's move on to talking about the thunder in terms of our hype and concern. So I guess we are like mildly,

we are like hyped with a lot of reservations for the, for the Timberwolves. But for the Thunder, four and six, and this is sort of the inverse. They're four and six, but they have a positive point differential. At times they look, well, I don't know if they,

have you seen a Thunder game where you're like, man, the thunder look incredible right now. Early on in the season, I don't remember exactly what game they play, but it was like, Okay, Melo's hitting threes. Russ is moving them ball.

He had a triple double, but only like 15 points. It's like, okay, this is an very ideal version of the Thunder. We hope that they would be when they got Paul George and Carmelo, but now it's like very disjointed. They look out of sorts to the second unit, again, like not great, just as like the wolves. And there's like, okay, we knew it would take time for them to fit in, but at some point they can't just be this isolation team that, you know,

that was the case when Russ was there. I think that there's like a little bit when you watch them. It's like they're almost being. too nice to each other. Like, they're like, I don't want to, like, Russ, I think Russ is, like, taking bad shots still, but that is part of the, part of the deal. But there is, like, a weird, like, I don't want to offend these guys going on by everyone involved.

Well, okay, so I would actually take that optimistically. Because right now, yes, they're not really sure who should hit which spot when. But even, like, so against Sacramento, the big three shot 15 for 54, which is horrible, right? But in the 54, you also see that they're all getting shots off. Yeah. They're all sharing the ball. There's not that, like, awkward tension we were worried was going to happen. And I very much think that that is a good sign, especially for later in the season, as they do find out their spots.

Well, yeah, they keep feeding mellow, and mellow is just not a dynamic offensive player. Like, I know this is a bit that I do now, but, like, he is marginally better than a replacement-level player at this point. Like, he's fine on offense, and defensively, I think he sacrifices a lot. And, like, we talked about this going into the season. He had all these quotes about, oh, I'm not going to go to the bench. I'm not even really going to rebound. And he's doing exactly that. So we really shouldn't be surprised.

Do you guys notice that Justin's voice gets like, imperceptibly? I'm like, only because we've been working very closely for, like, the last six weeks. Like, I noticed that whenever Justin talks about Mello, did Syracuse, like, beat Yukon in the tournament or something like that? They never beat us. That gets a little bit more intense. But I take your point. Like, I have watching a lot of thunder, like, the Mello thing is. he is like a glorified chucker from outside, man.

Like, he's a fun player, but, like, he is really, like, just, like, I shoot threes. You know what I mean? I was just going to say, I wonder about Stephen Adams. Like, I don't feel like he's being used properly, and now we keep seeing these guys who used to be playing with Russ, like, thriving in other places. Like, I wonder if you gave Stephen Adams more usage, you know, if his usage rate went up on a different team. I wonder if he would show us like, oh, like, I'm kind of an all-star level player, or do you think, like, how do you think he's being used?

I think, to your point, I was looking at, like, just the lineup data, and, like, it's pretty, skewed because not a lot of teams have played a lot of lineups, but they're starters without Mello and without Roberson, two of the guys that I've really been picking on this entire year, you put in a Brinus and Grant, they jump to plus 24 in that reading. I think it

speaks to, you look at their team right now, it looks like the thunder from last year. We talked about this with the Rockets. They're really good on defense, but they're disjointed on offense. And I wonder if it's the type of thing, maybe it's just comfortability or maybe it's a long-term concern where Russ and maybe even Paul George, they work better with kind of

role players in there as opposed to Mello who's going to be just a third star. Yeah, it was that strange Blazers game where they were getting rocked and then Mello got tossed for, I guess, jumping into Nerkich. We can, that's a... Punching someone in the face, yeah. Or was Nerkich like flopping a little bit?

And as soon as it became the Ramin Feltin show, they got back in the game and they kind of quaked down. So I think that the thunder are kind of the inverse to the wolves. We're neither too hyped nor too concerned about either, but it's interesting to see them having just how small the margin is for results. Either one could flip with the other. We wouldn't be that surprise.

I think one of the reasons, now, you said about towns, you were like, oh, Anthony Davis' success kind of skews the way we view towns. I think that the Celtic success with a bunch of new players and with young kids stepping up is skewing our opinion of some of these other teams that have got new rosters and younger players. And it's like, oh, so Kyrie comes in, you lose Gordon Hayward and you rattle off 10 games in a row. It's making other teams seem like they're failing.

The offseason was so exciting because you were like, okay, all these crazy additions, like, what are they going to actually do? We thought, okay, there's a little bit of hope that they could give the, maybe not give the Warriors some trouble, but maybe create more successful teams, especially atop the West. And now the Celtics are doing over there the East, but now you see the Thunder and the Wolf struggling. And you're like, okay, so what are you going to do here?

What's the end game? Is it just going to be Warriors sweep everybody in the playoffs? At least the Celtics in the East are giving us hope that, okay, they can take down the Cavs. Well, and especially for the Thunder and the Wolves, two of those players that each of them got, Jimmy Butler and Paul George, could have went to the Celtics. You know, we were all begging for that. And it's like, well, they ended up with Kyrie in the end, and it looks like it might be for the best. I look at the Celtics and I just see there's a foundation in place already. Like Brad Stevens' system, just what they do there, not only like they go out and pad their roster with high-level guys, but they also backload it with a bunch of guys who are really interesting, have some upside.

can just fit in right away and all of a sudden they're a good team. Terry. Exactly. Terry Roseir looks legitimately good. Like Jason Tadam went out yesterday and it just didn't matter because there's just so many these guys that are just ready to fill. Baines was really effective against the Lakers yesterday. Daniel Fis.

I don't know how he pronounces last name but he's been bawling too. It's whoever you put in there, Stevens apparently can make it work. 10 game streak plus 9.2 net rating. Best defense in the league. And then my other two notes are Tatum is hurt and a curse word, Kyrie. So I'm still from Philadelphia, even though we're not going to talk about that. How big is Al Horford's loss? If he's, for a while, he would be really detrimental to their Perthrund. Concussion, right? Yeah, he has a concussion. I don't know how long he's going to be. I don't

think they've said, but when he's on the floor, the difference between their 100 points per possession is the largest. So he makes the most impact when he's on the floor and everybody else. And I think, you know, we talk about how Kyrie left LeBron because, you know, he wanted his own team. But I think that you saw a little bit of it last night. Without Horford, Kyrie, kind of becomes like the, okay, I kind of have to do it all by myself kind of thing. And that is good in some sports, but also problematic probably in the long run. So Horford, I think, is kind of like the balancing force of that team, the linchpin of how everything around him thrives. I think Tatum and Brown have thrived because he's been in there. So when he's not

out there, like, that could be the only problem I see in the Celtics right now. This is the big thing is that there are horrific, unfortunate injuries like Hayward, but this kind of Horford injury is going to happen to these teams over the course of this season. And I think that we sometimes, like, we especially at the beginning of the year, we read these things as only in terms of like, you guys have all your pieces ready to go. But like, it's going to be interesting to see how Boston deals with inevitable injuries, probably a Kyrie injury at some point that will take him out of the lineup. And what kind of, what, what they, how they respond to that. Yeah. He's kind of the guy that they can't lose there. Because like you were

saying, like worst case scenario, they spread the floor and Kyrie goes to work. And I hate that I love watching him play so much because I hate him as a human kind of. But they're always going to have that ability to do it. And I mean, this is kind of among their worst case scenarios right now. The fact that Hayward and potentially Horford are out and they're still rattling off 10 straight. I mean, it's a good sign going forward. Yeah, Kyrie currently leading the team in points, assists, and steals playing 33 minutes a game. So, I mean, like, he's also got a 22 PR.

Is he an MVP candidate? Yes, absolutely. Like top three right now? Well, let's just, I didn't prep you guys for this, but snap. Like, who are the three guys? Yonis is definitely in there. LeBron. Lebron, Janice and Kyrie.

If he keeps up, I think he can make a dark coach run. And Hardin. Yeah. No Kawhi. I do think that the Warriors guys are going to cancel each other out a little bit this year. Guys are going to take nights off. Guys aren't going to play fourth quarters. I think Steph has been incredible this year.

But I just think that there are going to be too many guys who are doing too much for their teams to be ignored. Plus, it would only be Steph or KD. And like we've said before, people get tired of the same MVP over and over again. Yeah, absolutely. All right. I want to talk about quickly two more teams in this type of concern. So we're obviously hype to the extent that we can muster any goodwill towards a Boston sports team. But we're hype for the Celtics.

I want to quickly hit on the Jazz who lost to a Jared Bayless and Joellen Bede less and Markell Fultz less. Sixers over the weekend. That coming off of what I thought was like a really, really fun Jazz Blazers game. Where Rubio and Mitchell were like, oh my God, this is like my favorite backcourt. and then you live by the Rubio, you die by the Rubio. I think people are like, it's cool that Ricky can shoot now, but if that's like the number one option on the jazz offense, what's up with Roddy Hood,

where's the artist formerly known as Roddy Hood? Have you been watching any jazz recently? A little. I mean, I think it was kind of similar to with the Cavs where they had all these guys and we're like, oh, one of them will probably fill this role. Alex Birx. Yeah, he's ready.

And it turns out like none of them are actually doing all that well. I mean, when you have a guy like Hayward and he kind of runs everything that you do, He's one of the few guys can, like, create his own shot and do that. I mean, I think it's tough to replace. And the fact that Rubio is getting so many shots just speaks that he's like one of the few guys who could do that. And so he's just taking them. Right.

And Rubio isn't supposed to fit into that role. No. It's great that this is happening, but his 15 or some points per game is going to even out. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, that just doesn't keep up, even if he is going to get more shots than he's ever had. And Danny Chow actually wrote about this today and everyone should read it. And I love this line that he had, which said, Hayward was Evolution at Word.

so far this season, it appears as though the jazz are fighting against nature. And that is so true. They're trying to make shooters and scores. Athletic pros. Out of career role players. And they're trying to turn a rookie into someone who's experienced enough to be the main person on an offense. You cannot do that.

If you were just like, what's up? Is Utah on tonight? Watch it for Donovan. Yeah. Donovan Mitchell is like, this is really fun. And he is like, I don't care. I wish you guys could see me beaming right now. I'm a mother of two sons

He was like three for 21 I think like yesterday One of these days and like And it was like oh yeah You know just let him shoot Why not Shoot your shot He's shooting 31%

But he's so fun to watch Yeah he's also just such an aggressive defender It's like really it was really fun to watch Yeah like Kaylee's defense was like Oh he's a great personality Yeah well okay but also Okay whatever I think that this is also a great situation for him

Because he is like As a rookie is just getting the greenest screenlight ever. And so he's getting to go through a lot at the beginning. For him, it's great. For the Jazz, I'm like, you guys cannot be making him your first option. Expect that to be a good offense. Let's talk a little bit about, so, you know, obviously the Jazz known for their defense

to having a little bit of struggle early a season. A team, I don't know, I was going to say known for their defense, but I don't know if that was even ever true, is the Pistons. I guess I just associate Stan Van Gundy with well-coached teams. They're not known for anything. They're not for anything except for like having a pretty, good record this year and playing really well. Yeah, they're hard scrabble in Detroit. So, have you watched any of Detroit? Like, what are we, what am I missing here? Sparantly, you know,

but I will say that Andrew Darmann looks good. He's, if you see there's people out there putting the side-by-side shooting motion of his free throws. And it's actually really interesting to see how he's changed. And I know Haley wrote about this as well. So it's really fascinating to see how he has this like kickback with his back when he's shooting a free throw. So he starts lower now so that when the kickback comes, it comes at the highest point of the free throw, which makes him make it. He's shooting like 75% right now, and he was shooting for his career, like sub-40, I think. So, I mean, so hey, that's good.

I mean, Tobias Harris has been playing really well. Lankson Galway has a 70% effective fieldgo percentage. Like, where did this team come from? I don't know, but I guess good for them. I mean, good for Stanman Gundy's. You know, we keep kind of talking about how he hasn't been able to do the whole GM coach thing. But I guess it's kind of working out this year. I'm surprised that, like, the Reggie trade that was thrown out there for Bloodso and, like, how

it was also Reggie to the Pelicans which had been talked about a little bit like Reggie's been on the block and yet has played through it which is like I think a testament to I guess people can learn you know what I mean I thought that Reggie was just going to completely throw a moody and just be like I'm out like well okay so actually before the season

he told reporters that they had a team meeting and he actually told Andre Drummond like basically this is your team and for someone like Reggie Jackson to say that someone who was what was he writing on his sneakers in OKC MVP or starter or something? Was it whiplash? Seriously like... Rushing or drag him?

For a guy like that to admit the like, okay, like this is yours, he is really playing the game that they need him to play, the game that his talent ceiling can play best for the Pistons. Yeah, he's been really good. I think he and Drummond have like started to show some chemistry. I look at the roster, it's just a little bit

better in every spot. Yeah. Like, Langston Galway is doing well. Like Anthony Tolliver is the type of guy who's like, it doesn't show up anywhere, but he's... It's very stupid. Dan magic there. Yes, exactly. Like these random dudes.

These guys are doing what you're telling them to do. Yes, 100%. Every Bradley, like, is a little bit better version of KCP. Like, the fact that Drummond is hitting these free throws, that's very good. I mean, I was just going to say, 64%,

it's still a couple of points a game if you do that. You know, like... And also, the other thing is that means he's staying on the floor longer. Yeah. And like, four more minutes of Andre Drummond doesn't seem like a lot. But that means you're not playing Boban as much. You're not playing Eric Morlin as much. Like, even from a cap standpoint,

they, like, divested so much money into Aaron Baines, like, just to bring him in because he had to play so much because Andre Drummond couldn't play on the floor. And so it's like, you're getting a little bit better everywhere, and I think it's starting to show up. The ripple effect. I'm worried about Tobias Harris. Like, I don't know how much longer he's going to be. Is that because he is playing, I knew me to say it. I was waiting for the melody to come up. This dude is like getting to the line once a game. Yeah. There's some really weird, I would like to actually look into this, but there are some very strange trips to the line stats going on right now of like people getting

Calls are not getting called. Oh for 7 yesterday. And a couple of days ago, he shot 14 for 16. I mentioned this in the NBA. It's like, but Wiggins didn't get to the free throw line last night until the fourth quarter. He's bouncing off like three different players. That's probably for the best because he is pretty ugly. Come on.

Come on. Don't you want him to thrive? I don't know what's going on. All right. So we're like, I think the theme of what we got here is like cautious hype, cautious concern. It is only November. So we're not losing it. We don't know anything.

But I'm very interested to see these. teams as they like take different teams are taking different games seriously and different teams are catching good luck you know what I mean like I'm impressed with the pistons because not only are they beating the teams that are beneath them they're actually getting into it with the teams that are above them they're beating the warriors they're like if the warriors are going to have an off night we'll be there to find them you know what I mean and so that's like basically the difference between being the fifth seed and being the eighth seed I think it's worth mentioning that they're also playing far more efficient offense last year they took so many mid-range shots and

this year, and they didn't take a lot of three. Maybe that's the deregification you were talking about. Honestly, maybe it is. But this year, he spread out a lot of people. And, you know, we saw, like, when he drafted Luke Kinnard, that's obviously what their goal was. But they are playing a lot more efficient in terms of shooting. I actually look this up.

Damn, you got Luke Kinnard stat? No, Red Jackson's stat. There's seven points better per hundred percent of he's on the floor, which is the highest of anybody on the team. And I think that's, like, I don't know. I find that really surprising. So maybe the deregification is actually the reggieification. I like it.

My column. There you go. Those are some okay teams. Let's talk about some crappy teams really quickly. And I don't want to belabor this. But let me ask the group, what two-win team are you least concerned about? Those two-win teams are the Chicago Bulls

who have already had a fight that ended with a man going to the hospital for a broken face. In there. The Atlanta Hawks. Who I can only name two players on. The Sacramento Kings, who I'm really glad I couldn't figure out how to bet they're over.

And the Dallas Mavericks who are not playing Nerlans Noel and are really bad. Are we saying long term or for this season? This season. I mean, obviously, like, the reason why these teams are in where they are now is because they have some long-term issues. Right. But this season, who do you think will pull themselves out of their slump here in the beginning of the season? I like the Bulls. I know that they just had a fight and all that, but they have probably the, I mean, Sacramento has the Aaron Fox. But I like Lori Markinen a lot.

And so I think that having that going forward, even with the season, you can kind of base it on the fact of like, oh, come watch Lori shoot threes and make threes. You know, and like there's a little bit of hope in that, a little bit of, you can sell in that. So I think if I would pick any of these teams on, I'd probably pick Chicago. To get themselves together a little bit. Yeah. Zach coming back eventually. Right.

When is Zach Levine coming back? How do you get an Adidas deal before you actually get back out of the court? Probably being a two-time dunk champion. Or going to. Yeah. But now he's going to have to be the dunk contest. every year for the rest of his life. It'll be like going on stage and singing my way.

It's like no one will let you do it. No one won't let you sing my way, Zach. You have to go on. We're not letting Zach. I don't know. Like the Kings will look good on a given night and they get blown out really bad. I think that explains their point differential. But they're young.

So that happens. Well, then they're also old. No, that's true. Actually, they're like both sides. I also think that if I had to pick a team out of this group, if I can just throw this out there, that alarms me the most. It's Dallas.

Oh, for sure. Because they're the ones who don't seem to know who they are. Carlisle still playing Berea. And it's like, JJ is not going to get you into the eighth seat here and give Durk a sendoff worthy of his stature. It's like, you're bad, play Nerlin's, let Dennis Smith cook. I've kind of been thinking about this and we're going to get to coaches a little bit later. But I have been wondering about like, is Rick Carlisle really your rebuild coach?

Can he allow that to happen? He is not the Brett Brown kumbaya mistakes are also successes type. Yeah, I've been worried just because of the way that they're yo-yoing Dirk around kind of in and out of the line, starting lineup. Like, they're starting with the five now, almost out of like, just passive-aggressiveness toward Nirlins. I know, is that spite? Yeah.

What is the problem there? I don't know. I mean, but to your point about, like, maybe trading Ricker Carlisle. Yeah. I don't know. I kind of feel like he's good to have around because he was able to pull together a title team, which is spare parts. Yeah.

I think, if anything, maybe it's not to this lower level of type of guys, but if you got just a little bit more, he's just a little bit more. the type of guy that if you had one more marquee star, you can really build something around. Right. And I think that he's probably good at making scrap heap guys into NBA players. So, like, not that Seth Curry is a scrap heap

guy, but... But, like, he can get the most out of a Seth Curry. He doesn't seem to be able to get the most out of a Nerland-Nole who thinks he's probably better than Carlisle assesses him to be. I don't know if that is the problem with the center rotation, but it is such a mess. I mean, Dirk

can't play defense anymore. And that's, like, Watching him has been hard. It's tough. It's tough. And there's also, I hope I'm saying this right, Sala, not even going to try his last name, who had like five blocks either night, has randomly started, like plays eight minutes sometimes,

looks like he would play well along Nerlands, but like we're not seeing that. We're not getting to see them practice that on the court. Yeah. I think Atlanta is probably the team I would want to be, if I was any of these, just because like the system is there. They win accidentally.

They're just going to do the Brooklyn thing. Yeah. And like, some of the guys are like not that bad. I mean, Baysmore's good, like, Schroeder is like, I don't support him as a human, but... Torian Prince. Yeah, Tori and Prince is good. I really like him.

Like, Deadman is shooting threes and looking a little good. So they're almost too good for their own. They don't really get stomped a lot. Like, not like the way the Kings will obviously just like give up in the middle of a game and just be like, oh, we're losing. So like we're going to lose by 30. What is interesting, though, is two weeks ago we would have been having the same conversation about Phoenix who are now like just a competent NBA team. Yeah. So, all right, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors.

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Today, you play, you win, you get paid. It's pretty easy. All right, guys, Powell Haley, Justin, Chris, here for NBA group chat. And I wanted to do a little thing here with you guys called Coaching Trades. I love this. It's exactly what it's called. Coaching Trades. That's not a mystery.

I think that in this time in America, I don't want to see anybody out of work. We're trying to put people to work, not out of work. So I don't want to put eight coaches on the hot seat. I just want to mix it up a little bit. So I'm going to throw out some coaching trades. You guys jump in and tell me whether you are my trade machine. ESPN has not built this for us yet.

My first one is Tibbs for Kid. Because I think what Minnesota needs is a little bit of creativity and a little bit of like outside the box thinking, which in Brooklyn and in Milwaukee, kid has shown himself to be like, I have an idea and I'm going to see if it works. And whether it's playing Janus a point guard or saying like let's play a bunch of these kids

together. Let's like everybody's 610 to stand in a line and see if that makes it hard for people to shoot. All these things that are just like a little bit more creative and I think also good for younger players, Kid does. But apparently cannot coach defense at all because the Buczer have one of the worst

defensive records, one of the worst defensive statistically teams in the league. Tibbs, while now overseeing a terrible defensive team usually is good at that and could bring discipline and like at work ethic and repetition to this group of young players who are maybe ready to take the leap. So straight up, Tibbs for Kid. Justin. I like this one. Okay. This is my favorite of the bunch. I don't know how I feel about Tibbs as a coach anymore. I feel like he's starting to show signs that he might be past his time. Yes. But I do like the idea of him almost being like a house flipper where he

comes in and takes a team that's on the low and just like builds equity into it. And they need a defense. Like on the defensive end is where the bucks should thrive, especially with all those young, long guys that they have, Bledsoe should help to that cause. And they're not there. And I wonder if getting a new scheme in there, maybe trapping a little bit less, maybe

like relying more on principles would really help them. I don't know if this is low hanging fruit, but I would not send Tibbs to Milwaukee just because they have a lot of injury prone guys. Oh yeah. I'm sorry, but like... don't leave the hospital.

Yeah, exactly. So that's my main talk to that one. This would be the Jabari Parker suite. Also, like, Milwaukee General. God, if kids are already showing like this kind of defense, like Minnesota needs help on defense.

And they are looking better. I am seeing like a lot more from Andrew Wiggins. But I think that also is probably just Jimmy Butler, you know, on the court. You really don't believe in Andrew Wiggins.

No, that's not true. I do. Okay. I do. When have I ever said anything negative? I just feel like every time

we say something cool about Wiggins. You're like, but not really, though. He still has another mountain. Wiggins is great, but he has a lot more potential. He doesn't have his own canoe, so. I would just say I don't want Fibbs corrupting you on it, so I'm out on that. So, okay, you guys, the millennials are scared of hard work, so they don't want to go to Milwaukee. Let me just eat my avocado.

Here's my next coaching trade I got. Eric Spolstra to the Cavs for Kevin Love. This would involve Ty Lou being out of work, so I'm sorry, Tailu. so I probably go work at a candy store get all the lifesavers you want I just think that

the Miami thing they obviously are not as good as we were hoping we well you do you not hope I guess like that group of guys so I wanted them to do well you didn't care yeah I didn't really care like I know Dion is a thing

but like I find him tough to watch but you have a lot of time for Spolstra yeah I really like Spolstra as a coach I would love to see him in a competitive situation let's get the Beatles back The heat was back together, man. Gets Spolster coaching Wade and LeBron,

figure out what to do with Derek, fix the defense, install some offense. What do you think? She's an assistant maybe. Beasley? That's right. The gang back together.

I love this. I think that this is absolutely what the cabs need, but I don't think that I could do that to the heat. Like, they will completely fall apart if Spolstra is not like mixing up the exact perfect formula. I don't know. White side might go crazy.

Also, it would be cool. So then the heat would start, Whiteside, love. Dion, Dragich, and Justice. Not about the starters for them. It's about their

bench and how you integrate it in. That is really where they're going to find their success. And somebody, the coach has to be like a mastermind. I wonder who in Miami

is a coaching mastermind besides our expulsra. Who can take over. Matt Riley back. Come on one more time out there on the bench. I would actually love that. That would be amazing.

Show the rings to bloodsport every day. You get so many more features after that. That's right. Excellent. Terry Stotz and Al-Farukamino for Carmelo Anthony. No, we need to give Donovan more time. Are you trying to submarine the Trailblazers here? They wanted Mello.

They didn't get them. Paul Allen probably wants another star out there. It would be interesting for that. It's just a chemistry experiment. Stott's, like, I really enjoy watching the Trailblazers on a night-to-night basis, but there's probably some, a little bit of message fatigue there. Like, they've been playing that playbook for a while. It's like built around CJ and Dame.

Mello would be. an interesting stretch forward playing on the same team of the Nerkich, and you rotate in any number of guys playing three, you go big, you go small. I don't know who would, I guess you could just straight up send Billy Witham to Portland, but everybody talks about how good Stats' playbook is, and it seems like what Oklahoma City needs most is finally to have some creativity on offense. I like this. I like Stats getting a change of scenery, you know, getting some actual plays involved. You know, who knows if Russell Westbrook is going to listen to him, but at least it's a different voice, because I don't know if Billy Donovan can do this, really.

I don't know what we know about Billy. I think this trade is the most Chris Ryan fan fiction of the bunch. Because it's like, I watched the Blazers, which you've been saying around the office all week, and you like mellow. So it's like, all right. You guys didn't see the one where it's Brett Brown for Dr. Gregory House to come properly diagnosed Markle Fultz's shoulder.

Okay, this final one and Justin alluded to it earlier, is Rick Carlisle to the Knicks to coach the new dirk. Right now, I don't know if the Knicks need any. help. Hornacek might just be as good as he was three years ago again. But Rick, get Rick out of Dallas and get Christop's a guy who can build an entire offensive architecture around him, although it looks like Jeff did that. What are you trading? Frankie? I think you have to give up a Frankie. A pile of James Dolan Blue CDs and Tim Hardaway Jr.'s contract. Tim Hardaway Jr. is such a maverick. Yes. Yeah, 100%. I kind of like the narrative of, like, not the narrative, but like,

you can say narrative. I'm just not a lot to say narrative anymore. We were talking about how Carlisle is not a rebuilding coach, and we were technically putting him on the Nix, another rebuilding team, but the narrative has been flipped in the sense of like, oh, the NIC should tank, the NIC should tank, and now it's like, Porzingus is a god, and they should go for the A-C. Like, how fast that has flipped is fascinating. Yeah. So you guys, do you like Rick Carlin in New York? I mean, I don't know if this didn't come through earlier, but I'm a little hesitant on anything

Rick Carlyle right now. Okay. if this Nerlands thing really is about them having a bad relationship. I'm almost 80% sure. Without any inside information, just like Rick Carlisle has had. Just like by watching them. Every year Rick Carlisle has a bad relationship with a player, I know that Nirlins would be exactly that guy.

Okay, last year, Chris Stops and Hornacek got into it. You know what I mean? Yeah, but last year was so bad for the Knicks. Turn the page. Yeah. You want to give me like one reading of the name Mello when we talk about it? Melo. Melo.

I do think Carlyleau would be good about what we were talking about before. He would make the most out of some of these, like, fringe guys that they have. Like Lance Thomas would probably be shooting 40% from three. And, like, the new JJ Beret would be Jared Jack or something. I would pay for view. I would watch Carlisleau, Coach Cantor. That would be incredible. Oh, that'd be great.

All right, let's wrap it up a little bit of Take Tank. Named after a video that we shot here, Jason Gallagher shot here. A little while ago, you can still find that on YouTube racking up the views. Take Tank was basically this idea where you presented take and the sharks buy or sell it, or rejected, I guess. So let's start with you, Justin. That's your take of the NBA that you want to offer up to the sharks. Hello, sharks.

So in Connecticut, we value excellence, especially in the basketball court. We're all about rings, success. And so, I would, I'd like to focus on the MVP race. What's your evaluation? What's your evaluation? I would like to focus on the MVP race. Yeah. I think that it's going to be one of the more interesting ones to date.

I think if you look at it's wide open LeBron James, obviously a candidate. Yonaisansa Ticoupo, obviously another candidate. Let me tell you about this guy I know. If you say Jeremy Lamb, I'm going to have you separated from the company. I'm not going to go that far this time. Maybe next week. But he's organic.

He's locally sourced in Latvia. His name is Christophez Porzingis, top three MVP candidate. He's going to finish third on the ballot. I'll buy it, man. You can take my money. Also, we are feeling the power of New York right now. When they talk about like New York Pickets Media Market, like, watch.

This dude is blowing up. I'm buying into it. Yeah, I buy it. Can I make problems with that? No, I'm in. Take my money. We wore a shooting sleeve sometime this week and I ordered one on Amazon. Really?

Yeah. I'm just going to wear it as a headband around the office. That's a look. Really? Before firing out blogs. No, I didn't really buy it. We could get you one of those with your steak dinner after the next day in case you missed it.

Okay. What's your take that you want to sell? Okay. So this is not like, something you'd go into a take tank. Okay, it's like a thing that I can't say that. Take tank. Take tank. Take tank.

This is not something you're going to be like, oh, I want to do this and sell this chocolate everywhere. I'm really big on the Shark Tank. Haley, here's just a quick thing I want to say, don't ever go on Shark Tank. I would be so, I feel like the person they were like, no. Like, reevaluate everything. Have you guys seen the sleeves? Great. You can wear it around your head. Anyway, I think that Kyle Lowry is super disinterested.

this season. Super disinterested. And I mean, his offense has seriously not clicked at all this season. He hasn't had one game above 20 points averaging like 11. And I was looking up quotes because the other day Kevin O'Connor brought up on Slack

that he seemed upset that the Spurs weren't interested in him this summer. Males has settled on him. Yes. So he told a reporter when the person asked him why his offense wasn't clicking. He said, I don't know, man. I think the way we're moving the ball. The ball's not in my hands as much.

They just want to try to get everyone involved And for me, I'm used to having the ball in my hands What a weirdo. I know. So I think that he's a little bit like disgruntled and upset. And the spurs thing. Yeah, I mean, why bring that up? Weird.

You should not bring that up anymore. Somebody basically asked him like a tossed off spurs like, oh, you know, weren't you rumored to be linked with the spurs this year? And this past summer. And he was like, yeah, I wanted to go there, but they didn't want me. Like, not really. And so now I'm back here. That's some pent up frustration.

Buy or sell it. You know, I've spent a lot of time around the New Orleans Pelicans, so I've invested heavily in sadness and just misery. And so I have to say, I'm going to buy in. But I need 50% of your company. Equity. Equity. I want to make it, I made 10 cents on every dollar that you make off of Kyle Lowry's

next contract. I might agree to that. We'll see. I got to talk to my partner. You have a deal. I don't know if I'm buying only because I think he's kind of having like a regular season LeBron syndrome without actually earning the ability to do so.

He's like, okay, I'll get around to getting good once the playoffs come around. But he's not good in the playoffs. And also, if he was LeBron, he would be so much more passive-agrifice about it. Yeah, well, that too. But I just more engaged. Maybe not necessarily good, but just more engage. Sure, sure.

I like how the only thing interesting about the Raptors is just a guy saying he doesn't want to play there. Midlife crisis. Poor DeMare. Powell, what's your tic tank? Gosh, okay. So mine's a little outside of the box.

It's not. You got to walk in. You make eye contact you and you say, I have the deal of a lifetime for you and you'll never forgive yourself. I think the Leangelo Ball situation in China is merely a distraction to distract away from Lanzah Ball's poor play

on the Lakers right now. He got a resolution. He got a resolution. He's right here. Wow. I don't want to say that it was engineered per se, but I think that... Engineered like a shark in deep blue sea.

Exactly. Coincidentally, we seem to be talking a lot about the other balls right now and not about how Lonzo is struggling. However, my take on Lonzo specifically is that he's going to be fine. So you think that LeVar Ball saw that Lonzo Ball's struggling

for the Lakers and he engineered a geopolitical international incident where possibly Donald Trump will have to weigh in to save Leangelo Ball from a big sentence for stealing an LV bag. I mean, it's 2017. Would that be that surprising?

Lonzo missing some shots. You know what? A little outside the box. I like what you're selling here, Chris. I'm buying. Let's do it. All right, Palo. All right.

Is that more or less likely that he could beat Michael Jordan 101? Seriously. Oh, it's way more likely that this is the case. Exactly. There you go. This is the worst John LeCarray novel ever. That's the case. Okay, until next Thursday, I'm Chris for Palo Haley and Justin.

This has been NBA group chat on the ringer NBA show. Make sure you listen to all the shows. Juliet and John on Monday. Kevin, Chris, on Tuesday. Sources say every other Wednesday and us on Thursday plus Bill Simmons has a tendency to pop up. Hither and yawn, thanks to Kyle, we are out.

Basketball is very good. Today's Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Wish. You want to save big. Over 300 million smart and thrifty shoppers have discovered Wish the mobile mall app that makes it easy to shop, fashion, shoes, electronics, and more directly from the makers. That way, you pay

60 to 90% less for what you'd pay in a store. I'm sure Haley will be buying her Christop's armband from there. And now for our listeners, Wish is offering all new users a free gift with purchase, but dedicated wish lovers, don't worry, you are not being left out in the cold. All listeners can download and open your Wish app, find things that you didn't even know you needed, and enter code Ringer MBA for 20% off your first purchase.