The Ringer NBA Show - ‘Group Chat’ — Drinking the Kool-Aid … or Not (Ep. 144)

Episode Date: October 13, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier are joined by Haley O’Shaughnessy to chat about the ballooning hype for Joel Embiid (1:20), the possible precariousness of the "new old-look" Cleveland Cavaliers (8:50), and the awkward roster fits for the revamped Minnesota Timberwolves (18:55). Then, they bring on Paolo Uggetti to debate the meaning behind Kyrie Irving’s bizarre comments regarding the Cavs (26:10), whether Kyle Kuzma can maintain his impressive preseason performance (35:55), and if Carmelo Anthony will be good for the Oklahoma City Thunder (38:35). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. Wanted to make sure you're listening to the Bill Simmons podcast this year. We stepped it up with the guests. I don't even have time to list all of them, but let's just say we have had a who's who of A-listers, A-minus listers, B-plus listers in sports, pop culture, movies, music. I mean, where else can you get Kevin Durant, Steve Balmer, Jimmy Iivine, and Charlie's Theron in the span of six weeks, nowhere. The answer is nowhere.

You can find that literally nowhere other than the Bill Simmons podcast. We are in year 11. It's been an honor to do it. I hope you subscribe the Bill Simmons podcast. Check it out. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer MBA show. This is a little one we're calling group chat.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am joined by Justin Varyer. Hi. Haley O'Shaughnessy. Later on, we'll have Palo Ugetti join us to talk a little bit of Boston Celtics. This is basically an informal conversation between some Ringer staffers. We just can't leave the game alone. This is going to be going through some of the storylines happening in the week.

We're going to kind of interrogate some of these narratives. We'll give away some prizes for listeners who stick with us for the whole show. Just kidding. No prizes. Let's get started right now talking about Joel M. Bid. It's definitely the biggest story of the last 24 hours. Especially for you. So we had an informal watch party for Joel M. Bid.

Shout out to the Russian streaming site that we needed to get to see footage of this. Surprisingly clear. Yeah, it wasn't bad. You know, this was held in Uniondale, New York, lovely Long Island. And Joel put on a show. 22.7 rebounds, three assists, a block in just 15 minutes. Classic. Am I drinking Kool-Aid?

Am I crazy? Is this guy Olajuwon for the millennial generation? I'm ready to start the MVP hype, and I'm like sort of joking. People are saying that, though. I think if he plays, let's say, 65 games, which we're already going a little too far. Yeah. I think he's a legitimate top five MVP candidate. I'd like to add that his odds aren't on the MVP list yet.

What's up with that? I don't know. He's still in the field. So we'll have to see. Whereas Lonzo Ball, his odds are already on. What are Lonzo's odds? Too much. Whatever there. They're not good. Embed, last night, the Nets and the Sixers are going back and forth.

It's a big homecoming game for Kenny Atkinson and the Russian version of the Yes Network. I don't know what we were watching. Had a lot of coverage of a lot of Kenny Atkinson's family being in the crowd. But it was back and forth for a little bit. And then you blink. and Bede's been out there, and there was like an 18, 19, 1 run the Sixers went on. It's hard to keep yourself in check. There's been so many years of wandering through the desert as a Sixers fan.

But can you describe what you saw from him and how he like changes the game on both ends of the court? Yeah, I think you hit it right there. It's just, I know it was a preseason game, but the Sixers were down at one point, and he just gets on the court and literally everything changes. He was on the court for like only a few minutes, and all of a sudden the Sixers were up by 20s. He's just like, he's like a monster on the court. He just seems like, like he doesn't buy. along there. And he's just like, he forces his way and his ball skills are just better than

literally everyone there. He's playing at the top of the key for most of the time that we saw him. And this is a little bit of post up. Right. Right. And it seems like he knows what's going on. One of my favorite clips from the game last night was him pushing Ben Simmons into his spot. Yeah. And he was like, no, I'm supposed to be here. Yeah. Yes, we can add that it's preseason, but I don't think it's overhyped because last season happened. And he averaged like 25 minutes a game. We saw the exact same thing. Right. Is this ever going to be anything more than like a thought experiment? I mean, I don't know. I think that's up to the doctors. But I do think it's like a good thing for Philly, especially how recent events have gone,

not only last year, but just like, you know, Markle Fulton. Yeah. It's a touchy subject for you right now. But like, I mean, this is great. This is great for basketball and it's great for the Sixers. He hit the deck a couple of times. And I think that there's going to be a degree to which this happened with Duran a little bit when he came back from some of his foot injuries.

Like every time he would kind of come up limping from like a twisted ankle or something, there was just like a lot of breath holding. And Embed hit the deck a couple of times. There was one time where he banged into D'Angelo Russell on the block and did like a little dance that was like, did his knee just give out? Because it looked like he was hopping on one leg. Blake Griffin used to do this a lot with the clippers when he first started. I used to always say it looked like a baby kind of just walking around,

but like you want to keep away from like sharp corners. Yeah. It's kind of what Juel Embed is at this point. And even when he's like jumping up, I catch my breath. And I saw a lot of people on Twitter say the same thing. Just because like anything with him, you just worry that something's going to go wrong at this point. He wasn't helping yesterday. I saw one time he fell and then he just like laid down there.

Yeah. He has that like LeBron thing of like, when you know when you go down, everybody's watching kind of thing and you just kind of play it up like, oh, I've managed to return to action after like accidentally getting elbowed in the ribs a little bit. Just to tease out my fantasy here, let's say MB does play 60 games, right? What's the ceiling for the Sixers here? You get the eight seed? If he plays enough games, I think you're looking at maybe like six or even like breaking into the top five at that point.

Better than Milwaukee getting into that. He's such a game changer. I don't know how you defend him. I don't know how you score in the paint while he's there. We always talk about who is the eventual challenger of the Warriors. I don't think that team exists right now. But the Sixers, if things go right with some of these guys, they have not only like the versatility and the shooting and some of the other stuff,

but they have the size. Like, Ben Simmons is huge. Like, Markle-Fult has good size. They have Roco, who's like really good for what he does. This team makes sense. And if it all comes together, I mean, this is a force in the East. that might be better than Boston even in two or three years. I love it.

I love working with you. Ben Simmons missed a couple of like five-foot shots, though. Yeah, and do you want to talk about Markell's free throw shot right now? Do you want to talk about Markelle's free throw shot? I don't want to put you in that state right now. No, I'm okay. I'm fine. Things can be corrected.

I've seen Markele Fultz make shots. There's a lot of like, hey, we'll just get this guy who's a pure athlete. He's like a dog of defender. You can dunk his ass off, and we'll teach him how to shoot. And it's like the Kauai thing. And I think people are going to try and do that with Josh Jackson. Like, people are going to, like, we've done this a couple of times. I'm not worried about that with Markell Fultz.

He will eventually revert back to, like, a decent form, right? I mean, maybe. Come on. I think he does have more to work with than some of the guys that you mentioned. He could shoot. He's a good basketball player, you know? He has a lot of time. His voice just raised to really high pitch, which is AK, that's a lie.

Well, I think the discussion that we've been having recently, which I think is a good one, is, why did they always key in on Fultz anyway? Like even when the Celtics had the pick, it seemed to always be Fult at number one. Why wasn't anyone ever talking about Lanzo as a potential number one pick? Because I think he fits this team potentially better than Fultz

because he has the shot and he's a good distributor. I've been starting to develop an answer for this question because I asked it myself a couple of days ago and I was just like, wait, what? Why don't we take Lanzibol? First of all, let's just leave out all the off-court stuff of like the idea that you're not just drafting a player, you're drafting like a circus that comes along with it.

Because obviously Los Angeles is a place where they're like, please bring the circus. Like, we want it. Sure. But I think that Lonzo's measurables or whatever, like, they don't necessarily read as, like, dynamo athlete. He's kind of like, like, Jason wrote about Lonzo today for our point guard week and just sort of like the almost rebelliousness of the way he plays, which is slow,

his jump shot has a hitch. He doesn't necessarily explode up the court with a burst of speed. It's really, really down to his incredible court vision. And it's his ability to see a point. play before even the other participants in the play see it. So I think in some ways, I can understand why if you're just like looking at different prospects, you might be like, you know what, we want this guy who seems closer to James Harden now with his body type and his scoring ability than a guy like Lonzo who, you know, maybe is not fast enough for this

league or whatever the major concern was. So I'm starting to talk myself into, I understand why they did this. I'm going to be a little bit more annoyed if it was like, it becomes very obvious that Dearon Fox was a better pick and that he's just like immediately a really great two-way point guard. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, especially with Simmons, it seems like he has to play point guard on an offense. And while the defensive side of things, he's probably going to be a big, like you really just want shooters around him, especially in Bede. That's why they got Reddick in the first place, and they'll probably replace Reddick with someone like Avery Bradley. So it does make sense from a structural standpoint, yeah. Let's move on from the bottom to the top. So the Sixers have been

at the bottom of the NBA for a while. One of the top teams have been including Cavs for the last few years. a new look Cleveland Cavaliers, the new old cabs. An old look. I have wavered on the Cavs where I'm like, you know, at first I was just like, not only do I think that they will win the East like at a canter, but I think that they can really give. I can't believe that you had that tape. And now, and then I had crisis.

And I had a crisis of faith. And now I'm back. So am I falling for it? I think Cavs fans are definitely like falling for the Cavs. You're a capital F falling for it. Am I? Yes. Derek Rose and Dwaynewayne.

No, not Derek Rose. I'm just mean like the roster. They're like all these guys that chip on their shoulder. The gang is back together, making one last run. The class of 2011 is here. We're going for it. Where's Darren Williams? Yeah, I have a confession to make.

We've been talking about this a lot and I've been very anti-cabbs, anti-Rose. I saw like two highlights of them the other day. It's really good. It came back. It came back, right? I'm in on his team. Yeah. I saw like one play of Dwayway blowing by like the ghost of Matthew Delavadova or something in a preseason game. And I was like, D. Wade's back.

Flash. That last 20 minutes a game and then like, what, 60 games combined? Yeah. Between the two of them. I get it. It doesn't really make a lot of sense. I think the big concern for me is that in order to balance the court because you don't have shooters and Rose and Wade, you're bringing Kevin Love at the five now, which I get it. Like you want to be a little bit more versatile, but how long is that even going to last? Because you put him next to someone like Embed, and Embed might actually just step on him and he might be broken forever. So my favorite part about Kevin Love being at the five is actually how. it was presented to him, which we found out from a press conference. Kevin Love told everyone that LeBron told him in practice.

He was like, no, because they were trying to figure out who was, they were trying to figure out who was taking the four or the five. And then LeBron was like, oh, you don't know, like, you're going to play the five this season. And then on Mike and Mike this morning, Tyloo was like, actually, you know, I guess Kevin told LeBron and Santa Barbara that he was playing the five, but it was all my idea. Yeah. And he kind of laughed at the end, but I'm like, dude, don't turn into David Blatt.

I actually think it's better to have, even though that does somewhat undermine Ty Loo and his intellectual property, I think it's better if LeBron actually is involved in these decisions because it shows like a degree of engagement with the team. Like it would be worse if LeBron was like, I haven't spoken to my teammates in four months. For Cleveland it's way better. Yeah. It's nice that they're going to Santa Barbara together, maybe trying some wines. It seems like that's LeBron's kind of vibe these days. Well, my favorite Instagram of the summer was Kevin Love in Napa and it was right after LeBron had been there.

and all the hashtags and Kevin Love's pictures were just like, just missed JR must have not gotten the email from Channing. LeBron left me off the group text and it's just like him solo at some winery in Napa. Are you telling me your favorite Instagram from the summer wasn't the 20 Banana Republic ads on Kevin Love's Instagram? Those are brutal, man. I think I might have to unfollow him. Because now I feel like I'm getting like the automated AI ads where like just because I'm following Kevin Love, I have like 35 Banana Republic ads in my feed anyway.

Is it getting to? Is it working? I don't like Bidata Republic that much. They might be a future sponsor for... It's probably the strongest take we've got. Alienating people right off the bat. That's the way to go. Kevin Love does look good in some she knows, though.

Okay, so you and I are getting a little bit... I'm already there on Cavs Mountain. You're climbing up it. And you're saying, give me your hand. Haley, you're at base camp. Diving off of it. I want nothing to do with this. So if not the Cavs, is there another team...

We're going to talk about Boston a little later with Powell. But is there any other Eastern Conference teams that you are getting good vibes from. The Bucks, like, did we just forget about them? Everyone is healthy this year, which is going to be a change. But Washington, when the Vegas odds came out and it was like 48.5 wins, I thought that was very low. The Eastern Conference is worse for them this year. They won 49 last year? How many they won? They won 49 last year after getting off to a 6 and 12 start. Yeah. Remember everyone was like, oh yeah, they're going to, yeah. Right, everyone was like blow out. Yeah, exactly. They were going to fire him. They were going to trade John Wall. So now I'm like,

how could they not win 49? The Eastern Conference is weaker. they have everyone back. This could be a good year for the Wizards. We saw this like weird Jordan quote today, this Michael Jordan quote. What was it exactly? It was just basically like super teams make garbage teams too. Make the 28 other teams garbage or something like that.

Subtouch is my team sucks. Includes the Hornets. It's just like now that Batum is gone. We have no chance. I do wonder whether this will be a funky regular season. And teams like Washington if they want to push hard can get can rack up some wins because it does feel like it's going to take a little while for Boston to gel. It seems like Cleveland, with all the experience,

that veteran experience that they have, might take some games off, you know? They might just be like, you know, let's just be a top four, top three C. I could see that. Rose will need rest. Wade will need rest. Isaiah's not even coming back until December. Right. Florida vacation for LeBron.

Right. So they might not come out of the regular season. I thought you're going to say they might not come out of their cryo chambers. Their wine baths. Yeah. You know who this opens the door for, though? The ringer's own Brooklyn Nets. How would you say that it opens the door for them?

If the entire East is full of bad teams, maybe this singular bad team will... Is this something you believe? I think I do. Or at least I'm talking myself into it. I'm just super into this team. I think they have, like, if you're thinking that the East is there for teams that just kind of like put in the work that just show up every day and are like decidedly average, I think average can get you pretty far.

And that's what I thought about the Charlotte Hornets, speaking. of which before Batum went out. I don't know how they're going to paper over that injury. He's a big part of that team. But the Nets have a lot of guys that are super intriguing. Jeremy Lynn, if he stays healthy. Russell is like, was the top two pick like three years ago. And we all said he was the next hard.

And all of a sudden, like, obviously the shine has fallen off. He did a lot of bad things with the Lakers, especially with his social media. Yeah. But it's just like, these are good NBA players. I really like what they have. I think Kenny Atkinson, the pride of Long Island is just. Give me their starting five. Moskov, Lynn, Russell.

Ronde, and I guess, Damari Carroll. and then the shell of Dorcas. It's foolish to be out on Danielo Russell already. I agree. Any other recent high draft picks that you're not selling your stock on, especially Eastern Conference? Victor Oladipo. Is he recent enough? Yeah, that's recent. That's within this decade. I feel like he's mad enough after what happened last year.

Has Victor Oladipo been mad a day in his life? I know he plays mad. Maybe on wax on his tracks. No, his tracks are smooth R&B. He's a really good singer. What, you don't believe this? I've seen the videos. Yeah.

It's ancillary to whether or not he can make a jumper. No, see, that's the whole thing is I don't think that he's going to make any jumpers. And that's fine. He needs to get back to what he was good at. Drive fiercely, draw fouls. You know, everything that like people, myself included, like he made us believe, okay, you're like going to be somewhat like Dwayne Wade. Yeah. Like last season, it was kind of like, oh, my God.

Well, he was in a tough spot. He was on a team. He was second fiddle to a guy. That's why he was hardly even second fiddle because like when you watch, I was a was watching Russ highlights yesterday. It was so thrilling to watch Russ, but for some reason while I was watching these highlights, I think we were just like a top 10 Russ plays of the year.

And I was like, oh man, I must have sucked to play with him. Because you just either get out of the way or receive a bullet pass from like six feet away that you're not expecting because you assume Russ is just going to take it to the cup every single time. And there was one where I was like, oh my God, I can't believe Victor actually finished this play because it was like, was that the cross court bounce pass that went through a guy's legs? and then O'Dipo finish with their layup,

but it must have been really difficult to be a Rust teammate. Yeah, his whole career, I don't know if he's been in the perfect situation to take advantage of kind of what Haley's saying here with just kind of being a driving kick sort of guy, a guy who can create mayhem. They brought Alfred Payton in pretty early into the Orlando Magic career. I mean, he was pretty much expected to just be a better shooter with the Thunder.

I don't know if that's necessarily his game. And now you look at what the Pacers have. I don't know if he's the best fit with Darren Collison, but, you know, they have some shooting around him, Boyan Boganovich, Sabonis. his dude from the Thunder. I mean, it makes some sense. Turner has some stretch to his game.

If the Pacers are going to be good, he really needs to be that guy anyway. Yeah, Villal Depot will be a really interesting case study. When we go through these teams like the Nets and the Pacers, I kind of start to agree with Michael Jordan. There's a chunk of teams that have actually been tanking or started that process, and they're just, like, really bad.

Yeah, but what he's trying to say is, like, all in the East. Yeah, I guess so. I think there were five really good teams at East. I don't know if anyone besides Cleveland could win more than two games off of Golden State. But I think that there's some talent in the middle group there. I think the bucks, we're going to see something from the bucks this year, one way or the other. Well, the irony to everything he's saying is like, it's his fault.

Just make a better team, dog. What do you do? It's not like these guys are going together because there are only a few competent, like, situations. Like Chris Paul was in L.A. They couldn't even get like five guys on the court who were actually good. I know. Yeah, what's the last big free agency signing Charlotte had? I mean, Lance Stevenson probably.

Seriously. And they traded for Dwight, but yeah, that's a, it's not necessarily a hotbed. They couldn't even create any fake buzz about Steph coming home. You know what I mean? Like every, like any competent PR team, I know, any competent PR team or any like competent local media can feel like. Dell calls their games. Yeah. You couldn't like ask whatever one favor from Dell?

I feel like Tate was even trying to see that. Tate was like the only guy who was just like Steph's going to go back home, under Armour is going to take, I'm like, first of all, it's like a conspiracy theory beyond, but like I was surprised that they couldn't get any juice going for like any Carolina guy to be like, why don't you come on back to the cradle of basketball? Is that how they talk in Charlotte? Yeah, that's how they talk. Let's talk about another team, not unlike the Bucks, who are hoping to make a leap, and that is the Minnesota Timberwolves, who finally inked Andrew Wiggins to their five-year $148 million contract extension. They had to do it, I guess. I mean, like, I get, because this is the same thing

with Embed where I'm like, do you really want to play this guy going into his RFA? Right. Do you want to alienate him?

It just seems like bad blood is the only thing that could come at that. Haley, you were avid wolves watcher. Right. And I'm in support

of this Wiggins contract. I know that a lot of people think it's way too soon for what he's shown so far. But the thing is

is when you watch enough of him, you know that he has all the tools. He'll show flashes and it'll be amazing. He can be the

dominant person that they're paying for. And the other thing is that on defense, which is what everyone gave him so much shit for last year, the problems are effort-based. So if you have the athletic potential

and you're being put next to Jimmy Butler who will lose his mind if you're not trying, you're going to make the leap this year. And the thing is, the worst case scenario is that maybe they don't get along, maybe Wiggins' personality, which has been described as passive, doesn't like that kind of feedback from a player,

but it didn't really work with Tibido. And that's always kind of concerning for me in a locker room is when you have like a defensive-minded coach and then you don't see it on the court. Someone's not listening. Now they have veterans, it has to be this year. So we will see very soon whether or not he's going to turn into the guy that Glenn Taylor wants him to be. It made him handshake before.

He just looked into his eyes and see that he was committed. The thing about the wolves is that not unlike Charlotte, you kind of can't let Wiggins go because it's not like you're going to get someone as good as him to come as a free agent. Right. You keep Wiggins and, yeah, like Haley said, like the worst case scenario, you sell as high as you possibly can on him if it doesn't work out between him and Tibbs and Butler, right? Right. I mean, the alienated Kevin Love because they held on to Ricky Rubio as if he was this, like, precious gem that they'd never had before. And it makes sense. Like, this is the heyday for the wolves.

I think Wiggins is a flawed player, but like these type of guys just get these contracts and you just don't want to lose an asset like that. There's a lot of fit issues, as Haley was kind of pointing to. I think offense is honestly the biggest one. defensively I'm not that concerned just simply because of what towns like his potential and just what he was at Kentucky. Wiggins' whole thing was his defensive ability when he was coming out of Kansas.

It's just offensively him and Butler, that's an odd fit and that's not a lot of shooting. You're kind of counting on towns and like Tadj Gibson was taking way too many threes in a preseason game. That's what he's going to have to do. How many games of Minnesota win last year? 31. Okay.

I'm thinking a lot about this week because we've been doing these best case, worst case, and so we've been looking at what we think teams in the best case scenario could do this season and what would be like the disaster for them. And you know, when I was writing about the Sixers, I had been thinking about stuff that Hinky had said back when he traded Michael Carter Williams and got rid of KJ McDaniels and that was that 2013, 15 trade deadlines, something like that. It was February 2015. And Carter Williams was like the reigning rookie of the

year. And obviously those trades wound up working out pretty well for Hinky, except that he lost his job. But he was really big on the idea that really great teams don't go up five wins at a year, that they make a leap. The biggest example of that would be that Thunder team that went from like 30 wins to 55 or 50 wins or something like that. And that was the first year they made the playoffs and they eventually lost to the Mavericks who would go on to win the finals that season, but that they made this huge leap. There's a couple of teams like the Bucks and like the Timberwolves that I wonder

whether or not that same logic applies or whether or not they are internally holding themselves to that same standard. Like, what success for the wolves? Is it just the playoffs? Is it Bithseed? What are they looking for, you think, internally? Look, Minnesota's a special case. They haven't made the playoffs since 2004.

Right. So even if they just creeped in, even if towards the end, the guys were like no longer as freshly like, oh, we're going to be great, we're going to be a problem. You know, like they started hating each other. Even if they eke in, they're like the seventh eighth seed, like that's great. You know, they're happy. But I do think for Tibido, his big. biggest thing is not even where they finish its defense. He was aggravated last year.

You can, yeah. It's not about where you finish. That's how you do it. His biggest thing is like, are we going to have a competent defense? Because I know that that drives from crazy. Right. For maybe Minnesota fans, you got Jimmy Bellar and Jeff Teague. If you get anything less than 16, you might be upset. What do you think? I think they're about a year away from like the Blazers era, like Malays. Yeah. Where the Blazers are now just because I think you get to a point where just the playoffs is not enough. I think of the early aughts hawks, just those Josh Smith, Joe Johnson teams, like to a certain extent that was great because Atlanta never has winners. But after a while, it was just like, all right, how many outs to the Pacers are we going to do here? Yeah. I think the

wolves kind of have a buffer this year. I think just how disappointing things were last year, he's almost created this gap in expectations to where if they just make it in, they're fine. They probably should be a top four seed if we're just talking about raw talent. Yeah. And talent's like making a step up from last year. You'd think that that would happen. Yeah. He's the big one for me. I mean, he should be in the MVP discussion every year ago. Yeah. He's that good. Yeah, it's sort of strange. I mean, like when Hinky took over the Sixers, that was coming off of a couple years

of mediocre, if somewhat successful Doug Collins' teams. And eventually, a very bad one that led to Doug Collins' exit. But this sort of Evan Turner drew Holiday, Iguodala, pretty good, win 40-something games, maybe make a playoff run if Derek Rose's knee explodes.

Like, that was sort of like the outlook. And, you know, that now it's sort of like we've gotten to this point where I think so many teams are like, we're just going all the chips are in. So it's like there's a bunch of teams that have new faces that I think are going to expect results. And mathematically, some of them are not going to get what they want. Like, whether it's the thunder, whether it's the timber wolves, like somebody's going

to come up a little bit short this season. Right. And of all the new teams in the West that are loaded now, or I don't know if I want to say loaded when I'm referring to the wolves, but their offense is the most questionable when we think about like automatically clicking. Yeah. And that includes a thunder. I think that the rockets, like everybody's just kind of overreacting.

Oh my God. there's one ball, who will bring it down? Like James Hardin didn't play shooting guard for years and years and years. So I think that the wolves probably have the most questionable offensive fit, like you said, with Butler and Wiggins. But Danny Chow wrote a really good piece on how they could fit, essentially, pointing out that when Wiggins was forced to pull up jumpers last year, he didn't do as well, but he finishes really great around the rim, and Jimmy Butler is better at that.

Yeah. So it could work. I mean, it's possible. It's just a matter of will it and how it will turn out. I want to talk more about some of these new faces, and we're going to go back to the Eastern Conference, talk a little bit about Boston. To help us with that, we're going to bring Palo on.

Now we're joined by Palo Getty. Palo, me and Justin wanted to talk to you a little bit about the Celtics. Celtics. It's not a team we talk about a lot at the Ringer. Very little. It's not a team that has a lot of support within our staff. No, it's but a strange week because it started off, what was it, Monday or Tuesday,

Lee Jenkins had an Isaiah Thomas feature, and Isaiah was not particularly, fond of Danny Ainge in that feature. He talked a little bit about how he felt like he didn't have any warning that this trade was coming and he gets dealt. And he just sort of put out what a lot of people had been saying before, which is like, how are you going to trade a dude who did this for your team and put the team in front of like maybe his personal well-being during the playoffs.

Yeah, I mean, he said that he probably would never talk to him again, which is kind of an extreme statement. But knowing Isaiah, he's probably going to follow through with that. Yeah. And of all the like those changes that happened this summer, I think. Isaiah Thomas woman is the most kind of raw emotional one. Yeah, especially because of all the emotions about Kyrie Irving. We're going to get to Kyrie.

With the Isaiah stuff, I mean, it's kind of buffered a little bit about the fact by the fact that Isaiah is not going to actually play until possibly 2018. But the guy who went to Boston in return was Kyrie Irving. And Kyrie, who looked good yesterday against Charlotte, right? Like, he's been having like a pretty good preseason. He looks like he's really comfortable. But he's still popping off about Cleveland a little bit. And this was sort of strange because I think Kyrie is definitely enjoying the spotlight in terms of just like having opinions.

Which all power- He has opinions, yes. He has opinions. But maybe, I don't know whether or not, I was just wasn't listening to him when he was in Cleveland. But he gets asked these bullshit questions by the meeting. He's like, oh, I definitely have an answer for that. Let me tell you. Yeah, he has answers.

I don't know if they're like based in anything factual. Yeah. He's almost kind of feeding into his own celebrity that he's built for himself for the year. It's almost like he's playing a character now. Yes. The point where he backtracked on the fact that, like, he thought the Earth was flat. But then even while doing so, I think he's even more full shit. Yeah.

Like, I don't know what to think about him anymore. I basically just am out. He's very confusing. The whole thing is really weird. Like, well, first of all, I want to say, like, let's pour one out for Gordon Hayward when he, like, owned a day in the summer, July 4th. Because he's become extremely irrelevant. It seems like at this point, it's all about Kyrie, which is really weird. No wonder his haircut is so dramatic these days.

It keeps getting higher. I don't get out of stuff about it. Yeah. So it's really. really fascinating and weird what Kyrie's trying to do because he's talking about how Boston is a real live sports city. Yeah, I don't even know what that means. So was he, was he calling into a radio station or was he just like, I'm just going to share this. So he's driving and he was like, man, I live in a real sports city. Yeah, he's like, I'm driving in. I live in a real sports city. And then like, I think what was the more shocking part was like he explicitly said Cleveland at night, things were dead. Which is like, okay, you don't even need to go that far to say that. We get what you're saying here. But the fact that he's making that explicit choice. It's just really weird to me. Like what's his end goal behind this?

Is he doing it on purpose? Does he know that he's doing this? It's a really fascinating subplot into how the Cavs and the Celtics are going to be inextricably linked throughout this whole season. Yeah. To me, I read it as this is a real live sports city that recognizes me and who I am. Yeah. Whereas LeBron, obviously, is the guy in Cleveland. He has the huge billboard, all that stuff.

Kyrie made a very clear when requesting for a trade, not demanding, that, uh, He wanted to kind of go and do his own thing. It feels like he's just kind of leaning into this. He wants to perfect his craft. To your point, though, from earlier, I know exactly what you mean where it's like, I even feel like now he'll get confronted about this comment, and then he could just be like,

well, that's because boom roasted. I was just playing a trick on the media and showing you guys how you just go for sound bites all the time. In the meantime, he's kind of right. I mean, like, Boston is like a probably more vibrant sports city. I went to one wedding in Cleveland like 15 years ago, It was pretty quiet. You know, like, so I guess, like, on his small sample size, I could see what he's saying.

Boston is very passionate about the sports. I think the one thing I would say that's going to be really, like, you were talking about the Boston-Cleveland relationship. I'm also interested in the Boston sports media, Kyrie relationship. Yeah. Because Boston sports media does not make any money on having a good relationship with Kyrie and not questioning him and not questioning his contributions. So the honeymoon will end. Right. Like when he struggles going, like, I don't know.

know, like five for 15 from the field, is not defending. The fans that make up that real live sports city are totally going to turn on him as well. So what is he going to say that? You know, is he going to be pleased that he's at a city where it cares almost too much about a sport? Right. It's really, like I said, it's an interesting thing going into the season because that relationship between him and the media, him and the fans, was not really there in Cleveland because it was just completely overshadowed by LeBron.

And then you can point back and say, that's probably why he wanted to leave, but is it going to be good in the long run for him. Take the personalities out of it for a second. Did you like watching the Celtics play a little bit of basketball yesterday? Do you like what you're seeing? Do you think Kyrie is like basically an upgrade on Isaiah and that they're going to be like this exciting team to watch?

I think they're going to be a better team. I don't know if it will be exciting. I almost want to pour one out for old school Kyrie here. We're running out of things before. We're going forward for Gordon Hayward and his limited media availability. There's three of us. There's three cups. We get one more part.

We get one more. We get one more. Yeah. I'm sure we'll be able to find a. Yeagermeister shot somewhere in Boston. At timeout or wherever that far is. But no, it's just like he was one of the last guys we kind of let do what he does,

like just kind of that one-on-one scoring. And I felt like in the playoffs, yeah, it wasn't the most efficient thing, but that was some of the most exciting basketball over the past decade. It's been Kyrie just going at the Warriors. That was like really fun stuff. And I think he's going to be a better player as a result of that. But I wonder if it's almost kind of like

tamping down that like wild spirit that kind of made him sort of interesting. Yeah. I mean, I watched just like a little bit of that Charlotte game when they had their starters in fully. And it did seem like sadly, it was like, oh yeah, this is like what it would look like if Isaiah Thomas had like a normal NBA body where it's like a really good crafty pick and roll player who has the ball in his hands and can just step back and knock down a three over pretty much any NBA player. Right.

I felt like a lot of Boston's appeal for a non-Boston fan last year was the degree of like scrappiness and like everybody was Mr. Fixit. and Isaiah was like a folk hero, but otherwise you just like maybe Olinic tonight, maybe Al Horford puts it in tonight. Like now it's like any other super team feeling kind of. But it'll be very interesting to see Brad Stevens deal with what will obviously be some different personalities on the team this year. Yeah, I think it's kind of like a refined version of last year's team because like you said, Kyrie is the quote unquote better version of Isaiah. And you have Gordon Hayward is probably the better version of the wing player that Jay Crowder maybe was for them.

So I think it's going to be really fun to watch them as strictly as kind of how we want not to compare them to the Warriors, but in the sense of like we recognize that they're just flawless and they're like a machine. I think the Celtics, if Stevens, like you said, kind of manages the personalities and instills his own style onto them pretty quickly and they're able to adapt to it. You're going to see a very smooth team, which, I mean, you saw Kyrie in that game last night. He had that move where he was just running down the court. He goes underneath his legs. I'm not even sure how that worked the move and you went to the rim. It's like you're going to see, I think, less of that, like Justin said, the original Kyrie.

but you might see a better team and a better overall player because of it. It's like how the burden of expectations just affects teams and just how you perceive them going into a season. We all talk about like, oh, everyone's the same on paper going into the preseason.

Preseason doesn't matter and all this stuff. But like it kind of does. It sets the bar. I think there's so much attention to the preseason this year. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of new faces.

We want to see certain things from them. The Celtics went from a team that when they won the East last year just in the regular season, that was exciting. That was different. It was kind of the scrappier team. without the star player kind of taking out LeBron, the guy who is the shining example of the star player in the NBA.

And now they're just a normal good team. Yeah. There was another shot was Jalen asked Kyrie what's different about playing in Boston this year compared to Cleveland and he was like ball movement, which was another Jalen's just asking you a question. He can be like, oh, different teams, different coaches, different teammates, both great experiences. You can just get out of that really easily. But it's interesting to contrast them with, say, the Thunder have been very like tempered in their they're just like, We're figuring it out. We're going to figure it out.

Don't worry. And they probably have more work to do than Boston because those are three guys who expect to have the ball in their hands for most of the game on the Thunder. But yeah, expectations, managing expectations. You don't usually see somebody who's like, I'm in the perfect place for my basketball abilities.

It's usually more like, yeah, we're going to figure it out. Another interesting thing Kyrie said was that he said, I understand the marketing of going into the Cavs Celtics opener. And I thought that was really interesting because it almost gives you like a picture into his own brand. be like why he's making these decisions. Basically, like, in my mind, it's like a bingo card of, like, things that are going to offend Cleveland and the cabs.

And it's like, what's going to be the next thing he's going to say that's going to offend them? Yeah, I wonder if you would have been on this press run if the game was in Cleveland. I feel like everything Kari says is just like a step-by-step process of the exploding brain meme going on. And so, like, the next thing he says is going to be completely, like, more ridiculous in the same vein.

But before we get going, I want to hear from you guys. Every week we'll try to do some recurring segments. But I wanted to do, I don't. care I'm dying on this hill. So one opinion, one take where you're like, I don't care if this is wrong. I'm dying on this hill. It's going to be right eventually. I don't know if I should do this in front of Apollo, but this take is that Kyle Kuzma is actually the new Landry Fields. This is a good one. I can't lie. I love Kyle Kuzma. I think this preseason has been way more interesting as a result of him doing whenever he's doing. But dog, you're not that good. And

like, it's at the point where Kevin O'Connor loved the dude. He gets all the best stats, but he's throwing stats out there like, oh, he shot this at the NBA combine, and I'm like, come on. Yeah. What are we doing? I think he's fine. I think he's going to exceed expectations. He's not Tron, though.

Like, let's just chill out. You know, it's just like, we're not, like, not everybody missed the boat on this guy. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like the case for him comes down to he's better than Julius Randall. My counter is Julius Randall. Not that good at basketball. The Lakers, not that good of basketball.

Yeah, that's going to be, the Lakers train at its status in the station. It will be very interesting in seeing when it leaves. Because I think that. It seems like their December is really tough. They do an East Coast run where they have to play Cleveland, then they come back and have a real like murderous row of Western Conference teams come through. And I think that could be the one there. They go like two and 12 in December or something.

When the rest of like the fan base catches up to the NBA at Christmas, know how they always say that about NBA fans. Like the Lakers are going to be long gone. You don't have to worry about them. So for me, I think I'm going to do something a little more conceptual that I've been wanting to rant about. Conceptual, good. Which is the fact that I'm going to die on the hill of, I'm already sick of people saying to everything, to a player, to a team, to a game.

It doesn't matter because the Warriors are still the Warriors. So you're going to die on it does matter, Hill. Yes, it does matter. Everything matters. Like, this whole offseason, one of the most compelling off seasons we've had, all of the things that happen are what's going to make the 82 game ride that much more compelling. Because there's so many questions that we're trying to answer because so many guys switch teams. And that's going to be interested in itself.

Like I'm making the case, I guess, for the Rockets, the Thunder, the Spurs, the Celtics, the Cavs, of enjoying the storylines within all those teams without having to always come back to the generality of the Warriors are going to kill everybody, which I get it. It's almost like I'm going up to you and saying, I had a good day and you're telling me, well, you're going to die eventually.

You know what I'm saying? Well, it's like if you don't want to look at sports in that existential way. Exactly. You know, you want to have their feel like there could be some possibility of something miraculous happen. And there is, like, what if an injury happens?

You know, like there's always so many different configurations. For the Warriors, it's a little bit higher degree of difficulty. have to have like a three-way segue accident for them to actually be knocked out. My, I don't care I'm dying on this hill. I'm dying on Carmelo Mountain. I like it. Get out of here. I feel like Carmelo has gotten trashed so badly over the summer.

Well, because he is trash. Yeah, I hear that. I really, I'm excited to watch him play on the Thunder. This is like a really good fresh start for him. I think that's the most talented team he has played on since Denver. I mean, I guess there was that one Knicks team that won 50-some. games, right? With Jason Kidd.

And then when he forced out Jeremy Lynn. Because they weren't any better with it. Is that the original sin of Carmelo Anthony for you? Is the ending of Linsanity? I think that's a big one. I think it's also just playing basketball. But tell me about this. So is it an aesthetic problem with his game or what?

Like, what's your major issue? Yeah, he's almost kind of the shining example of players who go for themselves and kind of aren't winning players, essentially. Like, he's basically the old Kobe Guard example. Do you have any faith in that changing in a different scenario and a different scene like in Oklahoma City? Oh, definitely not, especially after... He's doubling down. Well, first of all, if you want to get deep...

This is turning into... I don't care I'm dying on this hill except Justin killed me on my hill. Well, first of all, people don't change. Let's point that out. And also, like, on Media Day, they were all talking to him. Like, first of all, someone brought up coming off the bench and he scoffed at it. And, like, I get it. You're probably better as a team with Carmelo starting at the 4.

But the fact that he won't even, like, consider it as an option. Not a good sign. I think he was probably reacting to the idea of like, why do I have to come off the bench? Like, why am, why is it, why are we starting with me? And I think that that was sort of one of the problems in New York is that all the changes that were being asked of that team was starting with Carmelo. It's like, will you play the four? Will you do this?

Will you do that? Will you make way for this person? And I think just because of like everything about Carmelo's career feels like it's out of time, right? Like the contract that he had was unmovable. His game is not modern enough. He doesn't pass enough. He doesn't play in this way.

I just think that as a some night's first option, some night's third option, as a guy who could do what Derek Rose is going to do in Cleveland, which is play the first few minutes, come out a little bit early in the first quarter and then lead the second unit and be the like hero ball guy. I don't know. I'm expecting a lot from Carmelo this year. I'm really excited to see it. It's pretty mellow. It's the lifestyle. I think it would be right to top this off with the man himself. You know, he had an Instagram post early this week.

At the center of your being, you have the answer. you know who you are and you know what you want. Take that carrie. What does this mean? Justin just wants to hear, yeah, you know, team played well tonight. We got to keep a moving. That's like putting in all close to my life. Okay.

Thanks for joining us for NBA group chat. NBA show will be back next week. I'm sure Verno and Kevin O'Connor will have you taken care of next Tuesday. Just while we have you here, the ringer is doing the NBA preview Paloosa. Monday and Tuesday, we are basically going for two straight days with a ton of of video content. We'll have previews of the conferences of the teams, fake documentaries, uh, guests, special guests coming by. Some of your favorite ringer podcast will be doing video bits. We're really excited for this. It's starting noon Eastern time on Monday.

And we'll be pretty much going with you straight with some breaks for sleep until Cavs versus Celtics tip off on Tuesday at 7. So, uh, definitely hang out with us. You won't be able to miss it for Justin Haley and Palo. I'm Chris Ryan. Take care.