The Ringer NBA Show - 'Group Chat': Is Cavs-Celtics a Real Rivalry? (Ep. 187)

Episode Date: January 4, 2018

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier sit down with Haley O’Shaughnessy and Paolo Uggetti to discuss the less than impressive Cavaliers-Celtics game and ask whether the teams have a real rivalry (0:50). Then they test out a new segment, "Illusion vs. Reality," in which they review the Raptors, Thunder, Nets, and more (10:30). Finally, they try to separate some of the middle-of-the-road teams from contenders and wannabes (30:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Basketball is very good. The Rockets are better without Chris Paul. Janus will win the MVP. What if Kyrie Irving is actually God? Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to group chat. My name is Chris Ryan. I am joined as always by Justin Verrier.

Hello. Haley O'Shaughnessy. I'm back and I'm better. Are you better? No. I'm back. And Palau, Getty. What's up, man? What's up? How's it going?

Sam Darnold's PR person to my right. Guys, we're going to talk a little bit. We're going to talk about the NBA. It's been a minute. I love sports. Yeah, it's a new year. It's the same league. But old teams are doing new things.

And what we're going to try and figure out is whether we can believe our eyes. We're going to play an NBA illusion versus reality. But first, I want to talk about the game and these storylines that have been dominating our week, which is this is this Cavs Celtics world. I'm looking at Haley. Because I have the distinct feeling like Haley's not really here for this. For the Cavsaltics. Is that because last night I wrote about how boring it was?

Yeah, like I'm curious. You've been on ICYMI. Every night we have like sort of a roundup of all the games. And I was just wondering like whether or not you were like, were you anticipating this game? Are you just kind of like, I'm dumb with this stuff? No, it's not that I'm done with it. I just wanted more from it. There was no tribute video, which I kind of get because if you're going to have a tribute video.

To Isaiah Thomas. To Isaiah Thomas, then you're going to want to go out and dominate on the court of the guy who traded you away. Yeah. So I get that. At the same time, that sucks. It sucks that he didn't have. It sucks that he didn't play. Jay Crowder had his review video.

Did he really? It was a, I believe it was a mini, like when they were introducing him, they did a little short montage. Oh my God. My dude got a mini doc? That's really wild. Jay Crowder got a digital short? That's great. That's great.

That's great. That's great. It was animated. Here's the thing is like we get into this sort of part of the season and we as people who follow the league want to work ourselves up to these like, you know, these turning point events in the season. But this is a cabs back to back. They can't play IT. Love got hurt early. No one could shoot last night.

They're working Thompson back into the rotation for better or for worse. And we got what we got. Did this game send any kind of statement to you? No. I mean, the game was just whatever. I mean, and this is my counter to everybody complaining about Isaiah fatigue. to begin with. It's like, what else are we doing here? Yeah. There are only so many incremental Markle Fultz, like, injury updates, injury and scare quotes here.

That, like, I mean, him coming back is really one of the few curveballs will get the rest of the way outside of, like, teams making big trade. So I don't know. It fell flat for that reason because we didn't get the one thing that made it kind of interesting. Yeah. Even in saying that you had made, it's kind of force, because that's how I felt about it leading up to the game yesterday. It was like, everybody was talking about Isaiah, you know, his every shot, oh, wow, like he drove, when he played against the Blazers, it was like, he drove to the basket, like, wow, he didn't, he looked aggressive, he looked explosive. And I'm like, okay, we get it. He's back. And if you would have played last night, I think it would have been different. But if, because he didn't play, just kind of, like you said, you fell flat.

Like, I was passively watching the game. I wasn't even paying attention to it. Well, yeah, but I'll counter. And I'll say that also in wanting Isaiah to come back and be great, I think it's also that people really want the. calves to be able to counter the Celtics and for them to go like head to head and for it to be very exciting at the end of the season like come playoff time and you know that's what also sucked about the game was that Kevin Love opened like zero for eight yeah and then did something to his ankle right yeah it was awful you know everyone was shooting poorly I think there's also I mean it's been

three years where it's a faya company that that the calves and the warriors are going to be in the finals and there doesn't feel like there's that much of it and in last year it was hardly even a question about whether or not anybody could beat the Warriors, right, in the finals. So we're creating these, like, ideas of, like, these little obstacles that we have to kind of get past. Where it's like, oh, interesting. Are the Celtics rising? And I actually do think that, I think that it's going to be like an incredible Eastern

Conference finals, if that's what it winds up being. But it definitely feels like two two boxers who are not showing their best punches yet. We're WWE-eeing the league. We're WWEing the league. That's so hard. I mean, what do you? guys think about Kyrie though? I feel like he's more interesting than ever at this point.

Because obviously ESPN dropped this big story. Jackie McMullen really kind of got into Kyrie in a way that he hadn't really opened up about at all this season. I want Jackie McMillan to be my therapist. I feel like I'd figure some stuff out. Yeah, or just talk to me on the phone for like five minutes

a day. I would pay for that. Yeah, but I don't know. It's just, it's weird because Kyrie this year has always been about, like, I just listen to Radio Lab. This is what I think about the world now. Let me just like whisper to Mother Earth sort of shit. And it was funny reading that story because it was the first time where I felt like

totally sympathetic to his plight again. Like, oh yeah, it kind of sucks to be LeBron's caddy and to never really kind of being able to ascend the glass ceiling. He puts on someone's own kind of individual greatness. Like there's this story Kevin Arniewicz wrote when DeAndre Jordan almost went to The Mavericks once about how DJ always felt like the junior executive in the Clippers just because he's grown up in there.

I thought that was just so human and so relatable, and it's kind of the same thing with Kyrie. I don't know. I guess I understand him from a different perspective. It was definitely the most humanizing story, and I think that this has had so many twists and turns and is ultimately going to, I think that this story will actually be defined by whether LeBroad stays in Cleveland or not,

because if he stays in Cleveland, you'll have a Boston-Cleveland kind of rivalry at a turning of the page in the Eastern Conference over the next couple of years. For now, though, I mean, I think that we do have ourselves, with Boston, man, they're kind of like, they remind me of the Spurs from 2011 right now. In terms of, I don't know how he keeps just, they go 12 deep with guys. He can play any combination of guys, double digits.

Stevens can have Rozier one night going off. He can have a Morris going off. He can have Irving kind of providing that tick, tick, tick whenever they need a bucket. I keep waiting for them to regress a little bit or to level out or for something to, to change with this team. But Boston just keeps showing themselves at the class of the Eastern Conference. Yeah, I think what they're doing

with their young guys is unprecedented. No team has been able to have this level of success that I can remember. I don't know if you guys can. With rookies playing such dramatic roles, I mean, Tatum is shooting still, like, around 50% from the floor. Like, even the best, most productive rookies

of the past, like, let's say, decade, they don't lead to winning basketball. They're not net positive simply because, like, there's just so much going on to figure out. They're always playing for bad teams. And that's mostly because when you get your Anthony Davis, your Carl Anthony Townsend, it's because your team is bad. Right.

Right. And you're like, okay, we've been waiting for you. It's your turn. And maybe they have big counting numbers, but the wins don't come. But with Boston, it's like they weirdly have this ready made culture of winning. And none of these guys have to play above their heads. So, I mean, we were laughing last night because on Slack, Sean was like,

I can't believe Terry Rozier is a thing now. And you were disappointed with that. Terry Rozier has been a thing for a long time. Now people are just seeing it. Thankfully, Brad Stevens can help it all. But you know what I mean? This is closer to like a really good college team where everybody is kind of all coming out of being a really good high school player.

But now they're sort of all trying to figure out whose role is what. And they've got a really good coach who's like, here, go do this. Well, right. Even the randos on the bench are helping. It's not just like Tatum, you know? Just the thief. I just had like a weird like I'm on a ranger podcast talking about the Celtics

and global TV. Well like it's Like Stevens kind of forces you to do this right Because he's like the anti-fibbs Like he doesn't like ignore He doesn't just like play the guys that Thibbs wouldn't but he like Figures out how to incorporate them into the offense

into the system and like do we Going back tying it back to Kyrie Do we give Kyrie kind of credit for seeing that And being like oh like that's like a Proper destination for me I know I know that it was eventually the cabs is shouldn't trade him there, but he,

you know, he probably had like some improvement in it. So like, how do we, do we think Kyrie, like, this is what he was like, I want to play with Gordon Hayward

and Al Horford and everything else is good. Not with like Jalen Brown. Yeah, I'm sure he was like, Jalen Brown's good at defending and I know Jason Tatum a little bit through the Duke Grabevine maybe, but I don't think he was like,

yeah, you know, semi-ogele is just going to be like a really effective. Terry Rojure is going to be a really effective backup for me. I think he did that first of all. Also, the Celtics weren't on his list. Yeah, That's the other thing.

The story kind of outlines how the Celtics came about later in the process. It seemed like he just wanted to go somewhere. And if anything, he wanted to get away from Cleveland because it seemed like he realized that the whole setup they had there was a little bit toxic. Especially because Dan Gilbert, I guess, was the GM for three weeks. Apparently. Haley, I know what your answer is going to be, but is this a good rivalry? No.

Okay. Is this a good rivalry? I think it has the potential to be one. It isn't one yet. I think the wizard Celtics is actually more interesting, especially after that Christmas game where John Wall just wants to like dunk on everybody and just like shit on everyone so there's that.

Yeah, I was gonna say the Wizards is probably more fun of them but like we want this one to be a rivalry so bad so I kind of hope it becomes after the season. Do you guys have like a particular, not necessarily like a rivalry like Notre Dame Michigan or something like that but like one in the NBA that you really are like oh I have circling this to watch it every time it happens.

I'm trying so hard the same as you guys to make Wizards Celtics a thing. Right. After last year I was like, oh, it's happening. Sometimes the wizard just can't deliver, but I'm still hopeful. Kelly Ubrae does have some just like, I want to just like punch someone, sort of vibe going to him. Thunder Warriors.

That's what I was going to say. That's a good one. Thunder Warriors and I was going to say Thunderwolves. And Thunder Rockets. I'm not ready to give up on that. The one I'm looking forward to hopefully over the next five years, depending on what happens, is Sixers-Lakers. But like the matchups this season were really fun when

There was a lot of attention on them, and I found them very fun to watch. So I'm kind of hoping that becomes one. That's a good one. They'll both be playing for a lottery baker. There you go. Thank you, Justin. Let's talk a little about NBA illusion versus reality. So we've gotten into the 2018.

We got into 2018 here. And there's a couple of trends happening that I just sort of thought we could just gut check about, you know. And the biggest one, and Danny wrote about this last week really well, is this Raptor's Juggernaut, which on any given night, DeMard de Rosen is just Mori Ball Kobe. Kyle Lowry looks mean and lean. They have like a deep bench of young players

who run their asses off. They can defend the rim. They can rebound. They can shoot. I mean, they are probably pound for pound the most complete team in the East. And they have, what, the third best point differential

in the league, I think, right now. They have a top five offense and a top five defense. That's the recipe for a championship contending team. Haley, Toronto Raptors, is this an illusion or is this a reality? I think that I'm going to get some heat for saying this, but I could realistically see them. From Toronto fans? Really? No, from everyone else.

Oh, from everyone else. Because I could realistically see them sneaking into the Eastern Conference finals. I think they could go to the finals. They are so complete. I'm serious. No, they are so complete. We're fine. Go ahead.

What a hater. What a hater. He has a whole other aspect to his game now. I think in December he was shooting like above. 40% from three, which is like way better than what he was because we were like, oh my God, he's above 30. He's amazing. But also they've completely changed their offense.

Their ball movement is amazing. They're not depending on Kyle Lowry as much, which as we've seen in the playoffs can be really detrimental. So yeah, I could see them there, even though I think that everyone is kind of forgetting about them because we've seen the same Raptors team over and over and over. just basically like this is this weird team that has these routinely has these incredible regular seasons that nobody actually gives them any respect for because we're also conditioned to be like when are you going to fail in the postseason? Because we've seen it, right?

Yeah. Cool. But having said that, like we still don't know like what they're going to do in the playoffs. This has been the same case every single year. And I think we always bring this up with the Raptors that the obvious parallel is the clippers. There's just like you count on continuity and you say, oh, it could happen eventually. And to be honest with you, is what I used to say about the Clippers when people would bag on them because they didn't have postseason success. Because one, a couple shots mean like a win for the Clippers.

Yeah. Chris Paul's thing. A hamstring pull. Right. Like is the difference between, yeah. The whole crazy Rockets run from their bench that one game whenever that year was. I get it. Having said that, like, I don't, I can't think of a team that just like tweaked a little bit of what they do and it made like just a significant difference.

Like OG and an OB has been great, but you're saying that's the difference between them making the finals and not. I don't know if that's the case because the calves are still good and the Celtics are even better. But this team has already gotten further. Well, this team a little bit different has already gotten further than the Clippers ever have. Only because they play in the East. Okay, that's a good counter.

I love DeMar. Shout out USC, of course. And he's had two games with five threes. I think his last few games he's made five threes. I think he's only had one of those games his entire career before that. It's just pretty insane to think about. So, okay, I'll buy into the fact

that he's shooting more threes down and the offense is, you know, doing better. But I think at the end of the day, like, I hope this lasts just long enough to give us a competitive second round series so then we can't see Celtics Cavs in the conference finals. Like, bombed out by, like, Miami. Right, exactly.

Polster's just like, I figured you out, you're gone. Next, illusion versus reality, we've mentioned these team once or twice before is the Thunder. Never heard of them. Beat the Lakers. handily behind the torrid shooting of Terrence Ferguson

rookie of the year rookie of the year Terrence Ferguson Russell Westbrook is averaging 31 points per game in his last 10 they are somehow weathering a full on publicity assault by Paul George to let everybody know that he is

not currently a Laker but that doesn't mean he won't be down the line Paul George played really well against Lakers last night and hugged his dad court side just to hammer home the, this is a local game for my family. Yeah, like mid-game, too. That was wild.

Yeah. That being said, you know, you can read all about, like, the different ways that they've started using Mello and that they've benched Justin's doppelganger, Alex Sabrina's, to bring Josh Eustace in. I do think that one of the keys to this, aside from different people learning their roles is Billy Donovan has expanded his rotation a little bit and is using different guys in different ways to Carrie Johnson's coming in. it was pretty dire in the beginning of the season

when it would be the starting five and then it would be like the Raymond Felton show in the second unit with one of the other guys. They seem to be figuring some stuff out slowly but surely is this just a team that's playing now at their level or do you think that there's another gear for this team and we could be looking at a Western Conference contender? I feel like on talent alone there has to be another gear.

I remember you writing about when the trade went down how this was like who cares how efficient this was like it was going to be a lot of fun. I think we're finally getting to see that which is nice because, like, I want to believe in this team, you know, like, I want to believe that there are going to be a problem for either the Rockets or the Warriors in the Western Conference. Like, I think that's the key, though, the fact that Donovan is incorporating other guys

because come playoff time, like, you're going to need a random performance from, like you said, Houston again. So it's, it's, I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic with this. The defense is legit. Yeah. Like, I think they have the potential to be the best defense in the league. I think Roberson might be defensive player of the year right now. They have two of a perimeter defenders, which is what you need if you want to be

serious in the spring. Yeah, they're like top 10 wing defenders. Paul George is like on another level kind of becoming this like very, very, very rich man's three and D wing sort of guy. Even Westbrook, like the advanced numbers are kind to him. It might be because he plays so often with these guys. Or he's getting so much help out on the wings now. Yeah, right? That too. I'm still a little concerned because while they settled into the roles, it seems like the roles are similar to what it was last year, where it was a little bit rust dominant. And that means fewer assists. I think they're like when I checked a few days ago, they were getting fewer assists than even like before. Okay.

So I wonder. As a team. Yes. Right. And it was more, so more Russ, less of everybody else sort of thing, or at least more ISOs. And so I do worry if that's going to translate, especially in an era of like ball movement threes that you're still just trying to basically be the Chicago Bulls from the Thibs era. Yeah.

So we'll see. That's interesting because I would have thought, like when I was watching them, I was like, oh, this is great because, yeah, it's the Rush show. but now like Paul George instead of Victor Oladipo from the perimeter. Like wait, well, Victor Oladipo of last year, I should say, is like definitely an upgrade. And they have Mello doing a lot.

Like there's a lot of plays where Rusk runs past everyone. And then Mello has a wide open trailing three because he's out of shape and not as fast as Russell Westbrook. But that actually is something that Paul George talked about, which was that he had actually been carrying a little bit more weight coming in, you know, as a Pacer's player was just like a little bit bigger and he was just like, I just can't keep up with Russ at the body type that I'm at. So he got into like more cardio and he like loosened up a little bit.

And it's just like this idea that basically it takes a while for these guys to adjust to playing with Russ and to playing with each other. But I don't know. I mean, I think that they have a shot injuries dependent. I think they could take a game or two off of the Warriors in the Western Conference finals if it came to that. It's the spurs and the Rockets are the two teams where I'm just like it. really just depends on health. You know, I'm not really sure the spurs are just quietly just like

having another great season with, without Kauai Leonard, essentially. So I'm not sure what, how far the Thunder can go. I want to see the Thunder play some of their marquee games that we saw them in the earlier part of the season. I kind of want to see them, those happen now, you know? Yeah, and to your point, I think it's great that they've kind of figured everything out, but I think it's still a little disappointing that they're better than the Nuggets and that's the big victory when we thought that this is the type of team that should be on the level with the rockets and spurs. And I think they're clearly a cut above that. Well, you know, and Haley, this isn't on the list, but I just wanted to ask you, like, there's also been a market improvement in the wolves.

Yes. Yes. What's the question? Well, they'll be, they could be paired up against each other in the Western Conference playoffs. That'd be fun. We'll see. Yeah. But I think that the thunder would beat the wolves in that scenario.

Yeah. Because, yeah, like you said earlier, this rotation is much improved. And a rotation isn't something that. the wolves even have. Right. Like we were saying earlier, like, oh, Brad Stevens, this is amazing. He's making all these bench players fit.

The thing is, like, the wolves have like Shabazz Muhammad. And, yeah, Tias Jones has been great in Jeff Teague's absence, but they just aren't deep at all. The wolf situation kind of reminds me a little bit of the Cavs where they lost Tristan played Channing Fry more.

Like, I think they've, like, what I have, 16 and 3 when Chating Fry plays double digits for the calves. It's like, you lose. something that you think is essential to your team, Jeff Teague for the wolves, Tristan Thompson, for the Cavs, and it just kind of makes everything click elsewhere on the floor. Do you think that

the wolves, like, have, are the wolves going to be too spent by the time we get to the playoffs? Yes. Yes, I mean, it's bound to happen. The minutes these guys are playing is insane, but like you said, I guess you guys need like a Terrence Ferguson. You don't have that on your team, maybe?

Absolutely, yeah, Terence Ferguson is the new Go-S-S-7 guy. Who knows if Dibbs would play a lot? Can the wolves make a trade? Do they have anything that they can? I think that other teams are higher than Gorgie than most people would think. Okay. I think that a lot of people think that...

Just Gorgie for Booker straight up? Yeah. No doubt. I think a lot of teams think that Tibbs misuses him. Yes. And makes him look like a poor defensive player. Interesting. So him, undeniably at this point, Tyas as well, has to have some appeal.

They can't afford to trade him, though. No, they can't. Because it's like, okay, well, so we have Aaron Brooks. Yeah. That sucks. So, I mean, that Shabazz Muhammad for like cash consideration. Hey picks? I think so, right?

Yeah. Sure. Sure. Got some picks. Throw them in there. Yeah. Let's do another quick, a couple of quick more illusion versus reality. So do we decide the Thunder was an illusion or reality?

I think this is real, what they are now. I think anything above this. Title contender is an illusion. Yes. Yeah? That's fair. Okay. Okay.

Kenny Atkinson, leading the Brooklyn. Clint's to the playoffs. That's our guy. It's like, it didn't play, which is nuts. Let's do it.

I mean, if we talk about the Celtics and we talk about what they're capable of and what Stevens is doing with these guys, I'm like, bowled over by what Kenny Atkinson is doing. Because every time I'm like,

they're going to lose like 10 in a row now, right? It's, nope, they have another great Karraslovak game, another great Dinwiddie game. You know, now they have like Stauskis and Okafor in the mix. OkaFour, by the way, two games in, minus 32.8 net rating. Good job, guy.

It's a process. By the way, nets five years. Title team? Wow. Is that what we're saying here? In five years? In five years. Give this team like a frontline star, like give them the number one pick two years from now

when they actually have their picks again. I think they could be really good. I think they could be the type of team that has established a winning way of playing. Yeah. Like they're second and three-pointers attempted, which is if you look at all the data, it suggests that the more three-pointers you take, the better they usually are.

All of their younger guys that have, like, upside or starting to show things, like Levert, as you mentioned. I think he's... All the guys they drafted where people were like, it's interesting, but he's going to have to learn how to shoot, or he's going to have to... It's like, all those guys have now, like, done that. Yeah.

I think that they're, those guys... Like, okay, so, first of all, I don't think that we should analyze the success of this Nets team on their schedule. or their, sorry, their record. Because they have a really tough upcoming schedule. Do they? Are they on the road? Yes.

Well, I don't know if they're on the road. Okay. But I know they have a tough upcoming schedule. And they have beaten good teams. They've beaten Cleveland, OKC, Washington, the Blazers. And last night they beat the Wolves and Crunch Time without Lavert. But I think what we should applaud is kind of what you're talking about. Because if you took some of these bench guys and put them on like the spurs, we'd be like, oh,

pop did it? it again, you know, and it's like the Nets. I don't know if people are watching. Sure. People are fully appreciating it, but that is very impressive to me. One big factor last night in that, that Wolves game, was that the Nets shot 46% from three,

and the Wolf shot 9%. Wow. That's pretty bad. I don't know why I look at you. Like, you're their shooting coach. I do, so do you, I do like your thought. They're like, is you see them becoming kind of like Rockets East in a way? Well, yeah.

I think that they've established kind of a way of playing that leads to success if you just like input the talent there. I will say that even though I am high on them going forward, as Haley mentioned, the schedule is rough, but also they're expecting to get the Angela Russell back. And I think at the very least, he kind of mixes things up. You have Lever and Dinwiddie handling the ball right now. And that's just a third ball handler you have to figure out. They don't have their starting backward. I was just thinking we didn't even mention that.

To be fair, they're four and eight with Russell. Yes. And he's so bad on defense. So I think there might be some regression coming. But when you look at their box scores against the scoring totals against the wolves, I mean, they only had three guys in double digits because Joe Harris had a complete career night, apparently. But, you know, I think that when they get Russell back, that's just more points. You know what I mean?

I think that they need someone who's capable of doing double-ditches. But it's encouraging to see what Atkinson's done with the rest of these guys. So we'll call this a relusion. It's not quite reality. It's not quite illusion. Sure. Future reality. Future reality.

That's what we deal with here on group chat. One more before we take a quick break. Gerald Green coming in. Just, I mean, talk about plug and play. Apparently the Rockets don't need James Hardin.

Gerald Green certainly has a better hair situation going on than James Hardin. I mean, I think it speaks to old school seven seconds or less Mike Dan Tony where it's just you plug in the right type of guys you can shoot and run and kind of like be a little bit more flexible on the wings there

and it kind of just like brings out the best in them. No other team could have used Gerald Green. Like they just like let the rockets have them. And that's just like I don't get that. But I guess you're right. Like it's more about the system. Like he probably wouldn't be doing this. You know, I don't know.

Pick a team anywhere else probably. So I mean, good for them, I guess. Because like they kind of needed during the stretch because Hardin is obviously such a big part. What a crazy career he's had. Joe Green? He's played for a lot of teams. A lot of teams.

And he's kind of gone from like, just a show dunker into a three-point specialist. And he's like a pretty big glue guy, right? Yeah. I heard it. Like these big, big chemistry dude. I really am fascinated by Chris Paul season this year. I know he's played like five games, but this weird like Rondo, if Rondo could shoot

numbers that he puts up where he's like, I'm four for five with 14 assists. That's like, that's just, what are they going to do with this guy? When, like, if he ever decides he wants to score 30, it's going to be like a real problem for other people. But I think I said to Justin yesterday that I really, I think Eric Gordon's going to have a nice two weeks here. He had 17 and 6 last night. But I think more is coming because he's going to get a lot of those James Hardin looks. Unless Gerald Green steps in and takes him from him. Yeah. The one disappointing thing is they don't get to see Hardin and Paul together for at least two weeks, which I think is their biggest question going forward. Yeah, I think that's going to be

like not a problem, but maybe a possible issue. The fact that like they haven't gone that much time together come playoff time because I don't know like Chris ball we we like that's that's all we care about like you're saying like oh he's having these good games and like that's fine but like all we care about eventually is like how they do in the playoffs and how much they can compete with the warriors and if they're not kind of building that chemistry I think that could be possibly probably they were talking on dunked on a couple of days ago about Hardin won it like kind of gutting from the MVP a little bit and that there's like incentives tied up into his the deeas deal with winning it and how he really wanted it wanted it last year wanted it this year

if he's out of the running now by missing this three-week stretch and it's like basically LeBron's to lose, if I were hardened, I would do everything I could to just go into the pop program of just like, eh, maybe I'll take every third or fourth game off. And if they're up by 30 points or 25 points,

which they are very often, get out of there. Like don't play 38 minutes or 35 minutes just to like add to stats for an MVP you might not win. When you can stay healthy, healthy and and be ready for the playoffs. I think that he has a lot of spite from last year's MVP. But I also think that it's true that Chris Paul,

what he was saying before the season about, I don't really want to be the primary ball handler. I believe him. And the games that they played together, I was very impressed. You know, I was like, okay, so this is really, they're really going to do it against Troy. And they're also apparently like,

they know how to play with each other on a basic, fundamental level that that like the thunder guys didn't right the thunder guys were just like I don't understand how to keep up with rush this is nuts well it was the whole thing about how Chris said like oh like I never had to play off the ball but I actually kind of wanted to and it's like oh in this perfect situation you can do that so it's kind of like

it's almost too ideal but you know it's definitely it was working out well yeah really quickly before we break Clippers illusion or reality this like this mediocre average clipper I'm in. I mean, hey, no, come on.

I want to believe. Because Blake is playing, like, he's just about to, like, just, like, rip someone's head off every game. Have you seen the teams that they've beat lately? It's literally the worst teams in the entire freaking league. You got to beat down. You got to punch down when you're in a little-up of a situation.

There's only, like, four teams worse than them, right? Milos is amazing. All right. So good. I'm not betting any of my money on Milos and Blake staying healthy for longer than two. What a deal for you? It's great while it lasts. Yeah.

It's great. guys with facial hair is what we've decided. Real quick, would you trade D'Andre at the... Absolutely. They are never in this position. They always get to the playoffs and then their guys get hurt and then it all falls to bleep. But seriously, trade while other playoff teams are desperate for a big.

You are going to get so much more from the cats. Did they need another set? Milwaukee. No, I'm just saying that's like the team that's been... Yeah, Milwaukee would be interesting. That would be fun. I say keep D'Andre because you've already screwed your team with the guys. Gallo contract.

Yeah. Like, and with the Blake contract, you've really kind of set your future up to where you're in the middle for the next year. Double down on mediocrity. Yeah. Also, the Wizards would 100%. Wizards would be interesting. I wouldn't give up Porter for him, though.

Yeah, that's the thing is that the wizards would have to subtract so much to get DeAndre. That's the thing. And if you're going to subtract a lot, I would just be like, trade what you have to trade for boogie and just like go down in Kentucky flames, you know, with that, with that lineup and see what happens. All right. we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and we will be right back with NBA Group Chat.

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So I'm just looking at the standings, and you've got a lot of similar records out there. And I kind of want to see from you guys watching games, watching these teams, whether you're seeing any separation that maybe isn't reflected in the standings or whether you think that there actually is a lot of parity in the sort of sub-golden state level. So let's do the East, because we were talking about the East to start the show. And do you guys think that there is a three-team group at the top of the Eastern Conference, or is it a four-team group? Do you think the Wizards are yet into the conversation where we'll be like,

yeah, man, maybe the Wizards? No. I don't think so. I think they can be. I've really liked what I've seen from them over the past few games. It seems like they've just figured it out. It's another team where when we talk about the Raptors and continuity, we kind of don't factor in that a lot of these guys on the Wizards are young.

Ubra is growing, Porter is growing. Beal is probably an all-star this year. And I think what they have there, especially in the small ball lineup, is dangerous. And I think that's the type of team. If you just maybe get one more piece, like you deal another one of your first round picks at the deadline, like they've done, I think, the past two seasons. I think they could do more.

Trey Burke, G-League player of the week back. Oh, man. Yeah. Not yet. Like he said, it could happen. But I just don't think that they have enough right now. Yeah. Yeah.

If you're already asked me to believe that the Raptors are in the top group, about. I don't think I can... So you don't believe that even? No, I do. Right now, I do. Yeah, because the way they're playing, I think that they belong in the top three of the East. But the Wizards is kind of a reach for me. I think, like, I'd rather get interested in the bucks, possibly getting up there. That's the more interesting conversation is this glut of teams in the middle of the Eastern Conference,

which is basically Milwaukee at 20 and 16, Washington at 22 and 16, Detroit to 20 and 16, the heat at 20 and 17, kind of surprisingly, quietly getting above 500. the Pacers hanging around there and then like the Sixers and Knicks I think are like happy go lucky stories like we'll all feel good if one of those teams gets into the playoffs. Look at you lowering the expectation. I'm not lowering expectations.

They just like they're running and beat out there with a swollen hands to like because like he thought it would be cool if they beat the spurs and it's like who's making the decisions? Yeah. Like he's like I can't squeeze my hand but I'm going to play tonight because I think it would be cool if Brett Brown beat Popovich.

First of all, so he just knows he can beat the spurs by himself if he plays. That's weird. Second of all, is no one telling him, like, we don't want to see you break your hand or do something really extreme to your hand where you miss two months? What if Markell isn't playing because he's actually the shadow GM of the entire team?

Which is why they make so many ridiculous decisions. Yeah. Well, I mean, in any case, the Sixers will go as far as Embed takes them, but Embed's body is, like, showing some signs of deterioration. I thought it was so odd last night how it was like 50 minutes before the game, or something. He's out. He said that about his hand.

He was like, I can't shoot. It's so small and it really hurts. And then during shoot-around, he said he decided he was going to play. So I guess that was his call. I don't know. And then he played the most minutes of any sixers. He played 35 minutes. And then it is like beating

the spurs on a back-to-back when they're on an East Coast trip and they had like a celebration in the locker room and like it was like weirdly like, what is this, Butler or something like that? Like did you guys just win a sweet 16 game? Well, it goes, I think it like, it goes back to the whole expectation things. We've talked about, like, it got so high so fast.

And now if they don't make the playoffs, it looks bad on them. And, like, I think you mentioned this yesterday on the source to say, like, if they don't make the playoffs or they struggle, then it's like Brett Brown. Yeah, it's always going to be a question of whether Brett Brown is Brian Colangelo's guy because he never got to hire his own coach when he took over for Hinkies. So we'll see what happens with that. But think about their bench, though. They kind of have a reason.

To be bad or to be good? To not be that great. Yeah, absolutely. I don't believe in that bench at all. This is the problem with the process, and we've talked about it. I'm actually like a low-key hinky-eyed. I love it. This is the problem with the process.

I can feel Twitter reverberating. No, it's just like once you've finally got the guys that are your core, you're still not going to be good for another two years. Yeah, I think that the difference between, I would rather have him be than Carl Anthony Towns, but Carl Anthony Towns, you're never like, do we have to wrap Carl Anthony Towns and cotton balls and send him to Barbados for six. month period just to get some sun.

It's just something. You know what I mean? Okay, so of that group of sort of average Eastern Conference teams, Milwaukee, Detroit, Miami, who's real, who's not there? I think for me, the bucks are the most real

because they have what everybody else doesn't have. It's just like a star. Yeah. So I think just when you have that, I mean, we know this in the NBA. Like, that's just how the league works. And so I think that like, if Giannis goes on a stretch where kind of like how he did at the beginning of the season. And he hasn't been playing bad.

He just hasn't been like transcendent. But like if that happens, then the bucks are back into, or close to that top tier, I think that's the team I want to believe in the most because they would be so much fun to watch them play against anybody in the playoffs. I think Janice's play is just quieted.

Right. By the rest of it. And I think that they'll go as far as Jason Kidd will take that. It's another guy who quietly might have one, this might be it. Yeah. If they can't get into the second. Yeah.

Yeah. In terms of the East, I would set the tiers as Boston and Cleveland, kind of above everyone else, which I'm sorry Toronto, that actually puts you... Second tier. Second tier,

even though you have more wins. I'm sorry. I would put Toronto on its own tier. I would put Washington and Milwaukee on the next tier, and then literally everybody else because it doesn't matter. Reggie-less Detroit.

Yeah, that's tough. AKA rudderless Detroit, yeah. Ish can't do that. Not into Ish Smith? I like watching it. Well, so last year, it was a thing that when Reggie came back, after missing the beginning of the season

and Ish had been the primary, the starter, the primary ball handler that they struggled. But then going into this season, Reggie was like, okay, Andre Drummond, it's your team. Like whatever. So they were a lot better with him. You can't hold on unless you trade for a point guard.

Right. You need another. So I'm worried about Detroit. Who was the other team in there? Miami. I heard Bill say this on the potty did with Kevin O'Connor the other day where he said some nights I'll watch them and I'll think, oh my God, they're so underrated. And then the other nights, I'm like,

they're the worst team in the East. And that is so true. Miami might be a better basketball team than Milwaukee. They just don't have that guy. Right. Exactly. To Haley's point 11 and 8 on the road, which is better than like three teams in front of them, but a minus 1.5 point differential,

which is worse than everyone except for the nets underneath them. That's wild. Western Conference. Golden State's incredible. Golden State's their own tier. Yeah. I think they're about to go on Golden State Island

a run. Yeah. I really love Steph. I really love watching Steph Curry play. He is also taken,

I feel like the accumulation of like the experiences of the years but like even like having the KD thing like this is the first time where I, the Steph swagger

is really out of control right now and it's really fun. The game last night you could make the argument that they maybe shouldn't be going to OT with Dallas. But man, like was there ever a doubt

that he was draining that when he basically jerked like three Mavericks guys off of him. But I like, like, I want these games, you know, like, because you're like, you need a late game to be like, okay, I'll turn it on if it's close, you know, because all the other games are not close. So I love it. I hope that they are able to like, obviously, like, if Steph keeps going like this, they're not going to lose. But if they keep it close then, it's fun because you get to see him actually flip the switch. Yeah. Someone on Twitter said recently, and I forgot who, so I'm sorry, but Katie raises their floor. and Steph raises their ceiling,

which I think is an interesting way to put it. Because he just takes them to another level. And even we expected Kevin Durant to kind of be the guy during the stefless era of the past few weeks. He didn't really do it. So it's interesting, but they keep losing guys from their core. Draymond Green is like her every couple days, and yet they're still close to a double-digit point differential.

Right now, they're plus 9.7. And their 73 win season, they're plus 10.8, Which is insane. Have you enjoyed watching them this year? The Warriors? They've had more games that have been exciting at the end. Yeah. Yeah.

There's no natural tension there. It's cool. It has like a little bit of like we're dealing with a three year hangover of like just being in every important game. But every once in a while like we can just conjure up these sort of exciting moments. They're like the Bloody Mary the next day. Yeah. In some cases, literal hangovers. Yeah, exactly.

So they're all in a class by themselves. Do you group Houston and San Antonio together, or is it Houston and then San Antonio? It's Houston, then San Antonio. Separate tears. I don't know what Kauai is doing these days. It just seems like he's taking a while to really work his way back in. I don't know if it's just the injury he suffered, if it's now they have this kind of Lamarcus-centric worldview going on right now. And he has to kind of...

Is that good for foreign policy? Yeah. Well, better than we have now these days. And so I am cautiously optimistic. I said the other day that they play like smash mouth football essentially, where it's like Lamarcus and then just like a really good defense. Yeah. And the fact that they've been able to do that without Kauai is amazing.

And if they get anything close to the Kauai of the past two years, they're going to be probably just as good as the Rockets. But that's a big if. I mean, I think I saw this roster at the Whitney when I was in New York this last week. It is like an art masterpiece that he is, I don't know who these guys are. And I'm like a basketball editor. Some of these dudes are just like, who are? are you? Who's Leverne? Who's

Bertans? Like, it's wild. Like, if any of these guys showed up on the Sixers or on any of these other teams, you'd just be like, man, they must be really scraping the bottom of the barrel. They're staying, they're 26 and 13 with these dudes. And, like, Manu's still a thing, too. Like, that's insane to me. Yeah, they haven't had, like, a breakout Dejanta Murray season or, like, Kyle Anderson contract year season, really.

They're having, like, decent seasons from these guys, but not, like, mind-blowing. And they're still, I agree with you. I think they're in that third tier, though. I think that that's probably right. The one thing I will say is like, yeah, I'll put them in the third tier too, but I think that would I be surprised if they beat the Rockets in a series? Probably not. I'll never be surprised if the Rockets are the series.

The Rockets fell off and they did not play particularly well without Chris Paul for that couple of games. He was out for that more recent injury. But when they're on, they're amazing. I think that they can honestly push the Warriors in a series. I wouldn't be surprised if that went like six or seven. During that five-game losing streak, also Clint Capello. kind of crossed with Chris Paul as being out. Really?

Yeah. I think that to beat the Spurs in like a playoff series with Popovich, they need both of them, definitely. I hope for like I'm just really feeling good about Mike Dantone. This season it's really great. I feel like a lot of his ideas, he's essentially the architect of modern offensive basketball and it's like it's cool that this is happening for him.

Are you Danny Chow right now? No, it's just going to be sad when Popovich takes his lunch again. when he's just like cool cool now you have to shoot mid-range jumpers because I have like four seven footers standing at the rim and Danny Green and Kauai Leonard running you guys off the three point line and when in the regular season

you're either playing bad teams or good teams that aren't trying and you get to shoot your 35 footers and oh by the way Ryan Anderson will have an annual thumb injury or back injury and bang goodbye young Davos is about the dunk on it for as much as we're like oh the raptors have to prove it I think like the Rockert still have a lot to prove

we can speed through the rest of this I know that Minnesota and Oklahoma are probably bunched together here. What I want to know is about these six, seven, eight teams. And even nine and ten. So Denver, who I feel like I don't watch enough of and then we'll routinely see, like,

put up 135 points. You know, so I don't know if Doug Moe has come back to coach them or something, but... This is like your third Doug Moe. Is it my third? I feel like I make Doug... And I never get responses either. I never in like a good Doug Moe dropped.

We're just like a little bit too up. 20 and 17, positive point differential. Yokich is an all-star. Sure. Murray's been better. I think he's taken a step forward with their weird point guard list sort of lineup.

The fact that Paul Milsap isn't there is probably helping out a little bit. If they had Paul Milsap, do you think that they would be up around the Timberwolves? Do you think they would have been past the thunder?

I think if they would have happened this whole time, then maybe, because I remember at the beginning of season, they had trouble to melting together, Yokkich and Milsap. So I don't know if they would have

figured that out by now and that's obviously going to be a thing once he returns. So I don't know. I'm, I like the team. I like the players on there, but I just, I don't know. They're clearly below that.

They don't have enough else. Yeah. The difference between the East and the West, really, it's, I think that the East is much more competitive and talented this year. But I really enjoy watching Denver in Portland when I, I watch Portland a lot. And when I see Denver, they're always fun to watch.

Whereas, like, the 6, 7, 8 teams in the East are a little bit harder to get through. No offense to the Indiana Pacers. Oh, 100%. I think the Pelican. are mildly interesting just because you're kind of they're on a razor's edge there where if they don't make the playoffs

like everyone could be fired so there's just like that whole like almost like office drama sort of going on there. Yeah, right. And then so do you think of that group so the nuggets, the Blazers and the Pelicans

are kind of like in that bunch right there would you take any of the teams that are outside of the playoffs right now? Clippers, jazz. I'm not going to say the sons. Clippers are jazz and put them in that group. I might put the Clippers

based on how they played more recently like even though the pel. Come on. I'm sorry, Heyley. Is that because you don't want Blake Gryford? No.

Okay. Although I am. Yeah. But no, I don't think that the clippers can stay healthy. It's as simple as that. I do think the jazz are interesting, though. If they get Gobert back,

their defense is like top 10, even though they haven't had him all year. Right. They're relying too much on Mitchell, which is great for Mitchell, but not great for their success this season. And if he hits a rookie wall, it's like kind of the bottom is going to fall out.

Right. I think that the jazz defense, defensively, I agree with you. I just think that the jazz, like, if they get Gobert back, like, are in contention here. But I would not be surprised if this is the playoffs. If this one through eight is winds up being the playoffs. Oh, for sure. I think that's the most likely scenario. Although, I think they're just weird vibes with the Pelicans.

It should be so much better, especially on defense. And there's just, like, kind of malaise that's just infected that team for the past few years. Yeah, because they're not, if they're not going to be contenders, not contenders, but if they're not going to be a real playoff team, do you have a real playoff team, do you have a couple of guys on that team who maybe lack motivation? Yeah, I think you could say that

especially defensively. For all this talk about Rajan Rondo being kind of this savior, he's not been good. Advanced numbers hate him. And there are people in the organization that question whether or not his impact is as real as some people think.

Yeah. Any other, I think this team is in a upper, a group above or below where they are before we get out of here. Seems pretty defined here. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to ask,

you guys think the Lakers are better than their record. No. No. They're more entertaining than their record. Do you think they're better than their record? No. Okay.

They're among the worst teams in the league. They're in a bad spot. I didn't think that they were going to be just bad. But you always watch them. They're all young. Right. I mean, young, like we said before,

it's unique that the Celtics rookies are winning basketball games. Right. Like, young guys just do not win games. And, like, what is their team? Like, they're all, like, 12 years old. Like, Kuzma is really good. And I So you're saying Luke Walton's not as good as Brad Stevens

You could say that probably Brandon Ingram has amazing nights Where you see flashes and you're so happy And then he has off nights Yeah Two good games a month They miss Lonzo Right? I mean like they kind of do

Are you convincing yourself No No I think that he would make them More competent Like I think the game last day I would have been more competent just from an offensive standpoint. Like, I just think he does more than, like, Jordan Clarkson.

Lanzo effect. That's true. The ball effect. I will be back next week with the other big ballers at this table for another episode of group chat. Thanks for listening. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.