The Ringer NBA Show - 'Group Chat' — LeBron James and Kevin Durant at Their Best (Ep. 174)

Episode Date: December 7, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier are joined by Paolo Uggetti and Haley O’Shaughnessy to discuss peak LeBron and KD (1:45). Then they wonder if some teams would've taken a do-over if given a second chance to make managerial decisions, including the Suns, T-Wolves, and more (18:33). Finally they tackle some NBA anomalies, including Bradley Beal's recent performance and DeMarcus Cousins's solo success (40:20). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to NBA group chat. My name is Chris Ryan. I am joined by Palauugetti. How's it going? Justin Verrier. Hello. Haley O'Shaughnessy. Hey.

wearing a Kauai Leonard hat that she is worried makes her look too pale. It's too close to my skin color. It's good. It's kind of like NFL camo wear. You know what I mean? No. Yeah. Like the camo colors that the NFL coaches wear?

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. You just need a headset. Yeah. Guys, today we're going to talk about a lot of stuff today. And it's easy to talk about the two best players on the planet on any given day. You can just rack up the hits if you want to get the page views rolling if you talk about these guys.

But last night was special. last night, Wednesday night, I think we got to see fully operational, platonic ideal versions of LeBron James and Kevin Durant. And it was really exciting. It was like, you know, I listen, I love Led Zeppelin. I'll listen to Led Zeppelin for like three or four months in a row. I'm like, this is just pretty much the best band.

You're really leaning into the middle age of your... I think you need to update that. No, I don't, you guys might age enjoy listening to a podcast too, and they'll appreciate the reference. Why don't you say future or something? No, you can make Snapchat future jokes

and I'll do Zeppelin Joplin. And then, so anyway, you listen to Led Zeppelin 4 and you're like, this is great. And then it kind of like fades and you're just like, oh, yes, you're already having this school.

And then it comes back around and you're like, oh man, this is the best thing ever made. Stairway. That's how I felt about LeBron. Just love that so long. Yeah, that's how I felt about LeBron and Kevin last night.

LeBron James, 32, 11, and 9 versus the Kings leading the Cavs. They're 13th one in a row. he was unstoppable last night and in a way that he wasn't pressing everything was flowing through him he was he was remarkable last night did you get a chance to watch i know that you were yeah i did a lot of quinn cook on the mind but okay i just want to point out that Quinn cook having a last name that goes along with like the whole chef curry thing yes is you can't ignore it so sorry no i know

but yeah i watch democracy dies in darkness haley i appreciate you all right all right but yeah did watch LeBron, especially in the fourth quarter. It was just amazing. And I think that, yes, we should focus on LeBron, but something else amazing that speaks to him is that three of the starters combined for 10 points. Yes. So that's, I mean, also, Kyle Corver was amazing.

But yeah, it should be about LeBron. I really have been enjoying the LeBron love show. Over the last 10 games, LeBron is 28 and 8, and Kevin is averaging 21 and 10. And they were just doing this screen and slip play where basically like Cab would come up

and set a high screen for LeBron but barely like not even connect and just slide down to the basket and every single time LeBron would just throw this whipped bounce pass it was incredible. Yeah it's kind of like the mid-sized version of what boogie and AD are doing just to see guys that are a little bit bigger and just to not have a point guard in that setup

it's almost more dynamic and interesting because it's just such an oddity out there. With LeBron specifically I go back all the time to what you said earlier in the season, just like how much LeBron is going for it this season. Yeah. We heard kind of just the messaging, just like what he was saying,

what was being written about him. It seemed like he was just going into the season looking to be the MVP to be that guy again. And it seems like in Kyrie's absence, he's even leaned more into the whole CEO LeBron thing. Yeah. And I look at last night, I mean, apparently they drew up a play.

And in the huddle, LeBron's like, no, I'm going for it. And Tylo was like, okay, let's just do that. They said they had some play called Chicago or something like that. And then LeBron was like, actually, I'm just going to do a step back three-pointer. Right. Classic. Classic LeBron.

Like, he's always done that. Corver had the best quote coming out of last night. And these are from Cleveland.com and some of the other guys on the beat there. He's like, he's just demanding the ball. He's like, give me the ball. We're about to win. Like, that's great. I think it's like self-awareness is really impressive.

Like, even when they were struggling, it was like, okay, he was like, chill. Like, just give us time. Yeah. We're done like 10 or 12 points from a lot of the game. We're going to be fine. And, like, with LeBron, you're going to be fine. And then he goes out there and says, okay, I'm going to prove to you guys that we're going to be fine by going off. And it's like nobody has that kind of control over a game like that.

And it's just so impressive. Justin mentioned the idea of, you know, in the absence of Kyrie. One of the cool things about last night for the LeBron, and this actually segue was pretty good for Kevin, is he's just playing point guard now. He's actually playing point guard and power forward at the same time, a lot of the times. But he's bringing the ball up. he's like overseeing this entire chessboard. He's making the right move every time.

The cool thing is though, is it sounds like Isaiah Thomas is on his way back. LeBron had said that he has been visualizing playing with Isaiah Thomas by playing with him on 2K. I'm surprised now at his point in his career, like what we know about LeBron, he can't just visualize it in his head. He can't just play 2K in his head without like the physical.

Yeah. That's kind of what he is. He probably has like an Xbox. where they just beam the game into his brain and he's just like, this is a prototype. Virtual reality. Yeah, but it's black mirror. I don't know how much to trust Isaiah, though.

It seems like he's been saying that he's coming back since like August. Yeah. So I honestly wonder like when he is actually going to come back. But it is kind of a sign that as I think Chris was on the side of the fence where telling everyone to not worry about the early results and kind of the devens and everything like that, they look pretty good.

And if Isaiah is back in the mix, I think they're going to be pretty dangerous. Like the harsh reality is that he kind of peaked last year, regardless, I think. Isaiah? Yeah. So it's almost like how much are you

going to get from him? I'm really, like it's going to be one of the most intriguing storyline in the second half because I don't think he's going to add that much

to the team itself because he was in a totally different system in Boston where he had to be the go-to scoring guy. So with LeBron, I feel like there might be some headbutting in there.

Maybe, but I mean, I just, when Isaiah Instagram that, or tweeted that, there was that tweet about like his quote would be like,

are you acting like I didn't bust your favorite point cards ass last year. I'm really excited for his comeback. I wanted to ask you guys just a quick straw pull,

Cavs, calves all the way back, Cavs for real now? Sure. So these 13 game win streak were just kind of like... I mean, what do you mean back? Like,

last year... Do you think that they are the best team in the Eastern Conference? Oh. I'm not convinced of that yet. They don't have enough

besides LeBron still. Okay. Yeah, I'd say they are, but it's kind of by default just because the east is still weak. than the West. I think so because if, like, if Kevin Love keeps playing like this and I find myself fruiting for him every time LeBron passes, like, passes him the ball.

I'm like, I'm willing to shot in with like, I don't know why. I don't know why I find myself being like, please make the shot because otherwise LeBron is going to be upset. So if you keep playing like this, I think they're the best of me. I'm very high on this team. I'm very high on this team for winning 13 games in a row. They still have a move to make. They still have Isaiah Thomas coming back.

They have Amman Shumper out. I know that he's not. Amon is a very up and down player, but they're going to get deeper as the season. and goes on, I love, love Granddaddy Wade and just like this sort of washed Alleyu play that he has every three games. But he has like a good game every three or four games. And he just does, he is like the perfect Twilight Banana Boat player right now. And how about Jeff Green? Jeff Green is this is, enjoy this. Jeff Green and Kyle for ever just coming in like, yeah, well, that's my worry though, is that, yeah, they're, they're kind of in a groove right now.

But the same issues that we were worried about early in the season were worried about at the end of last season in the playoffs still exist. They don't have enough wings to go against the Warriors. They still don't have the sort of like impact defensive players. Sure. So I think they do need a move in order to kind of be a force in the finals. But as far as the ease, I think they are the best. All right. Let's talk about the West and let's talk about the Warriors. Because last night, Golden State played Charlotte. They won something like 101.87. Durant had 35, 11, and 10 in the first game without Steph. It was also without Dremont. So he lined up with Clay, Quinn Cook.

I think Jordan Bell and Zaza was, I think, also in the starting lineup. They played 12 guys, 11 of them played double-digit minutes, and Durant played, I mean, a lot of the game, even though Quinn Cook was in there, Durant was running the offense. And it was wonderful. This is the most charmed by a Warriors team that I've been probably since the, like, their regular season, record-breaking regular season run two years ago. Yeah, but there's some variation. And isn't that always what we complain about the Warriors? It's like they're the same exact team we've seen and they're just too dominant. And we never know.

Like we never have to guess what's going to happen. But there's something deeper here. Because it's like when, so the argument for why Kevin should leave Oklahoma and the argument for why he should go to Golden State is, was this about like maximizing his scoring potential. And just like, he is the perfect system scorer and he just needs to be in an offense or the ball moves. And he needs to be in this system that really. understands his skill set. But actually, I don't care about that.

And what I care about is this idea of Kevin Durant elevating Jordan Bell and Quinn Cook into like playable NBA players and taking over a game by himself. And they were like, they were pulling Michael Kidd go-christ off him and just out of mercy at certain points. He looked like George Gervyn, but with a three-point shot and like the floor vision of Larry Bird.

it was nuts last night. Not to connect it back to LeBron, but it's kind of why we like watching LeBron because he just elevates everybody else. And then he takes over when it needs to be done. And there's like an aesthetic like appeal to that that we just don't get with a team. Like yes,

we're going to praise the Spurs and watch your beautiful game YouTube video and talk about their, you know, motion offense and all that. But like at the end of the day, we want a guy pulling up from 30 feet to win the game. Yeah. It sounds like to me what Chris is saying

is you wanted him to be more like LeBron. Yes. I mean, what I'm saying is the idea of taking one of the true generational talents and putting him with the three other guys that are also generational talents, while impressive in terms of what it winds up accomplishing, was sort of to me,

it dulled the impact of what Durant can do if you say, hey, you can play five different positions if you want over the course of like two or three possessions. You can run point guard and play center on defense. He had, I think he had like three or four blocks last night, including one on Kemba that was like, he just basically like spotting. Kimber from down the floor and was just like, you're just definitely not going to get this layup.

Chark said this in his piece from yesterday. He said, like, this is his opportunity to become, like, the best two-way player in the league. And you saw it last night, like he said, both on defense and offense. Well, I mean, I think that's the one thing I've been most disappointed with. And this is something that Danny Chow and I talk a lot about in the office, just casually about KD, because he was a guy I was really excited to see this season. I'd mention this a few times, maybe on the pod, but I just wanted him to be that guy this year. I wanted him to take the challenge of being LeBron's foil to heart and really kind of step into that number one role. And it seems like he's more concerned with being like an ancillary guy,

like weaving his way into what Golden State is doing, kind of being this chill bro on the side in the Bay Area. And I think that's most best represented by just him saying he wanted to be all defense more than anything going into the season. It's like he will be a more complete player, but I don't know if that necessarily makes him more interesting as just like a superstar and a guy that we're all kind of following. No, it doesn't at all.

And what's interesting about that is that, what, two, three weeks ago, he had that quote. I don't remember exactly what it was, but he's like, I'm not interested in being the main guy. Yeah. You remember that? I don't remember exactly what he said, but he's like, he didn't say role player, but he was like, I don't want to be, like, necessarily the leader of anyone team. I don't want to the face of it. And I think that this year had seemed like, and it was interesting listening to Kerr with Bill.

So if you guys haven't had a chance to listen to the Bill Simmons pod with Steve Kerr, it's a two-parter mailbag. and if you like basketball, you should listen to it. It's awesome. But Kerr talked about two things. One was, it was really interesting to hear how deferential

and obvious it was to him that Steph was the most important player on the Warriors. He's just like, you know, we look at the on-off numbers of Steph and they are not beneficial to us when he's gone. There's that famous clip of Kerr doing that

in the middle of the game, like saying to Steph, like I'm one of those miced-up things. Yeah. It was like, Steph was a little grouchy and Kerr's like you have 10 points but look at your plus minus that's why you're about yeah he'll and it was like yeah it was like he goes seven for 18 and has like you know however many points and he's just like but then he's like plus 32 and he was

talking it was just really interesting to hear him just be like the warriors as a thing is is dependent on Steph the other thing he said was that um you know like he was talking about this malaise that had sort of settled over the team and he was just pretty candid about it like we've been playing long seasons for now the fourth season in a row. And it takes a lot out of you to go to the finals, to win the finals, to go through the celebrating, to go through the losing, whatever it is. And he's like, we're coping with that,

but we'll be fine. We're going to be a switch team. Like, we're going to throw the switch at some point. And last night was the most excited I'd seen the Warriors bench during a game. Like Clay Thompson literally spent most of, whenever he wasn't playing, he was out of his seat every time Quinn Cook or Caspie or Bell did something. Right.

maybe because they weren't sure how it was going to go. Right. It gives them something to butt up against. It's the uncertainty, right? And, like, I think they also kind of have to create these, like, games within a game. Like, I remember early on in the season, there was, like, a Nuggets game. And The Silent Reporter for the Warriors said they were playing a game where, like, between timeouts, they would not, they didn't want to let the Nuggets make a three. So, like, that was, like, their motivation thing, I guess, something along those lines.

And I'm like, that's really weird and specific. But, like, if you're the Warriors and you're going, and this is, like, your third year doing this, like, I guess it makes sense to have some sort of more. motivation. And now the motivation is the rockets up in the West and then like doing it without Curry. That's like you soccer when you were blowing out the other team. And they were like, well, the coach was like, we'll get five passes before you shoot. Exactly. I remember that. Do you want to talk a little bit about Quinn? About Quinn. This is his first start last night. He like, they played really well. Well, I just always think it's exciting when an undrafted guy gets his chance, especially like, this is the spotlight. It's the Warriors. And it's, I didn't know

him and KD were friends or like childhood friends, but that's also cool. He set him up a lot of times. There was one incredible like only Kevin Durant with his seven foot like sport vision could have made like from one elbow part of the key to like across the court in the deepest part of the corner and quick quicks just had like five seconds to take a quarter of three. Right. And he shot 50% from three, which is cool.

But the other thing is like, can you imagine getting pulled up from the D league the same day you make your first career start? for the best team in the league. To start for Steph Curry. Right. In North Carolina. I was just very excited about that. Yeah.

I would say that one of the more annoying parts that's just coming incredibly apparent if it wasn't already is that not only are the warriors, the warriors with their starting lineup, but they are apparently also the spurs with their ability to just either rehabilitate or find guys on the scrap heap and make them into like pretty good NBA players. Oh, oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say that's kind of their whole shtick, right? Is that even while they're blowing teams off the floor and winning like 70 something games, They're working in Jordan Bell. Patrick McCaw is like an actual like 20 minutes a game sort of player. And so.

Yeah. And their whole thing is basically we all look alike. We all play similarly. Similarly, we all screen for each other with the ball moves. And so you lose Steph and obviously you lose something. But they're, yeah, you lose Dremont.

You lose the entire defensive identity of the team possibly. Yeah. 100%. It's just like everyone kind of is so used to playing all the roles that they can just fill in better than any other team. It's just like, but it's, but in that same sense. it's why they're kind of bland

when they're all playing that, when they're all healthy. This is why we're even talking about it today. Right. You know, it's like if they had just, if they had just beat the Hornets last night at full strength, I would not have been like, got to talk about the Warriors today.

Oh, really? Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and we will be right back with NBA group chat. Today's episode of NBA group chat is brought to you by Binge Mode Weekly, which is back in your life with a bang. Mallory Rubin and Jason Concepcion, who did one of the most critically,

podcast of 2017, Binge Mode, where they covered every episode of Game of Thrones with the depth and scholarship of doctoral candidates. Well, the doctors are back in the office and they're talking about different topics every week on Binge Mode Weekly. The first episode, they talked about Coco and Pixar movies and coming of age stories. This week, they covered their three favorite episodes of Black Mirror. Black Mirror will be returning at the end of the month. So to get ready for that, you can listen to them, talk about Black.

Mirror. And then in 2018, Mal and Jason will go back to the Binge Mode library and go deep on Harry Potter. So we're all very excited about that. Subscribe to Binge Mode if you haven't already. It is one of the best podcasts you can listen to. Okay, guys, I wanted to do this thing called takebacks. I guess no takebacks would be what it was really called. But it was basically born out of whether or not Sam Presti would do things differently after these first 25 games or whatever, whether or not there was anything about how he set this team up. He's like, ah, shit.

And then if you look around, there's a couple of situations like this. So I just wanted to kind of throw a few out there. The first one is basically, if Sam Pressy could go back in time, would he still do Oladipo and Sabonis for George? If he knew that Oladipo under his contractual control could be this good if they could just figure out a way to play with him.

Or is it just like, Ola Depot would only be this good if he was the number one option on a team where there were no expectations. Here's my thing. I think he would still do it because I think in a way you're you were committing yourself to Russ. You paid him all the money. So you're not just committing to a player. You're committing to a style. And I think that in that way, you're not going to serve like you, you, you already saw that with Russ, really good role players or semi good role players like are not going to take you very far. But you saw that with Durant and Russ, that would take you to the Western Conference

final. So in a way, it's a gamble, but it's a smart gamble because you know that if If anybody could play with Russ, it's probably other stars and not like middling role players. So he has to elevate because that's not how he plays. So I think he would still do it even though it's, I mean, it's not looking good right now. All right. What would you do canter for Carmilla though? I think I still might. Okay.

Because you get Canter off the books for next year, potentially. Like, whereas Mel, there's a chance you might opt. There's no way anybody is paying Carmel or Ennis Cantor that sort of money that he's going to get. Listen, I know I have a Mel fetish at this point. But it still made sense for the way the team was going. I mean, to swing for the fences and the same thing Paula was saying about Ola Depot, I still think you make those moves. I just think it's more on Carmelo to fit into the actual team

and to weave his way into the fabric of what they have established. Apparently fitting it means just scoring single digits a game. And they win. Yeah, I think the mellow issue is more management than it ever happening. Yeah. And I agree exactly with Paulo with Ola Depot. Now, yeah, he's becoming this amazing, fun player to watch. but he's taking his own threes.

That's why he's shooting better from three. He's making his own type of offense, whereas before he, yeah, he had to fit in with what Russ wanted. He kind of looks like Russ now. The way he gets up and down the floor. Well, he had plenty of time to watch him posted up in the morning,

waiting for a three. Did you watch the Bulls game last night? The Pacers' Bulls game. He had 27 and 8 last night, and he hit the game winner. Yeah, I caught some of it. It's really fun to see what he's doing. Yeah?

Yeah, it is. I can't say that. Pacers are a little low on my watch. rankings. Well, the Pacers and Bulls were a tough hang. Yeah, they, I mean, we don't have to spend much time on that. Okay, let's do some other takebacks. Or would you do this again, you know?

Haley. Yes. If you were Brian Colangelo, would you trade the number one? Would you trade for the number one pick? Yes. A hundred times yes. Is it that dramatic because we're like two months into Fultz season?

I think we're two months into Fultz's season. There is no sign of him returning to basketball for a structural problem in his shoulder, which does not require apparently any surgery. Jason Tatum is leading the league in three-point field goal percentage and looks like he's been in the league for five years. And every given any given night, you can watch Donovan Mitchell, Dennis Smith Jr., Nilakina, any number of guys look way farther along than a non-existent number one pick who people are. now like would you trade him for C.J. McCollum? Would you do this? Would you throw him into a deal? Let me ask you guys a question here. As you stared deeply into my eyes. I did a little Fultz research. Do you know where Markle Fultz is right now physically? I thought you meant like literally and I was like, really? No, I don't. Metaphorically.

He's not with the team, I take it. Is you in Delaware? He's in Kentucky. Okay. He's at some like physical rehabilitation center in Kentucky. And I guess nobody said anything. And then someone Is Kentucky the new Doha? I'm like, why are you saying, why are you using this tone about Kentucky? What is wrong with Kentucky? That's just a little outside of physical rehabilitation centers? I mean, it's not like the Mayo Clinic. Yes, exactly.

But I was just so surprised that we lost track of Markell. And all of a sudden he's in the deep south like sipping gin and tonics or something. That's what happens when you have him beaten Simmons on your team. Like they're like overshattering any like storylines I feel like about folks. That's true. I'm also just worried about his mental state. Like, I was cruising through his Twitter. I'm sorry, Chris.

I was cruising through his Twitter yesterday because I guess is what you do when you want to research somebody. But he randomly last weekend retweeted a video he did before the draft with the Players Tribune about his like signature move about his signature spin move.

That's good content. That's resurgling. Let me remind you guys. Let me remind you guys how good I am. There's no newspeg to hook it to because he hasn't been playing. Sometimes, you know, what? That's the problem with the media these days. We're all driven by headlines. And if it's

good content, it deserves to be recirculated to just have a second chapter. Sure. Also, there's no hooked. That would be like a very editor, I think, to say. So, yeah, very on brand for you. I'm just, I'm just looking for the-don't you recirculate when it's relevant. That's what I'm saying. Ask me whether or not I want to see Markell Fultz in the G-League. Do you want to see? No. Did you say G-League or D-League? It's G-League. Okay. Yeah. Just making sure. Yeah, neither. I don't want to see him in either one of those. I do not want to see him in Delaware.

Would you do the trade again? That's the question. Yes. Okay. I went back, just FYI, I also did some research. And I went back and read what people were saying about Markell Fultz. And nobody could have called this. Well, okay, but saying do the trade, I want to be clear, does not mean drafting Markell.

But it does. Okay, so is that your question? Or is that your take? Basically, like, now they don't have that, like, the pick is now, like, you know, they gave up a lot to get him, you know, and I just, I'm just saying, like, if you're Brian Colangelo and Embed and Simmons and Sharich and Covington and JJ is basically your starting lineup anyway, like, Markell doesn't even, I don't even know what Markell does here. It's like you could have had another wing. You could have done all sorts of stuff for that number three pick. And instead, we're kind of in the spot where we're at. we're just like yet another draft pick in limbo.

The same way that Embed and Simmons were with their injuries, the same way Okiforah has been with his ability to play. And the same way now we've got, you know, Nerlins and then Al, and now we got Markell. It's actually like a pretty tattered history when you think about the height of the pick that they're making. All right, we don't have to keep talking about Markell.

I want to ask about some other ones. Paley. Yes. If you're Magic Johnson. Okay. Do you make the lawns open? Okay. So this is what I think.

about that. I really think that Magic Johnson has way too much pride to take anything like that back. Sure. I don't want to make this sound like I'm predicting anything about Lonzo's future. Because I think he's one of those guys who like two, three years might surprise us into being the player everyone thought he was going to be. Okay. Here's what I want to say. He should take it back because the plans for next year's Lakers or what we all think it's going to be is a win now team. Let's get LeBron.

Let's get Paul George. Lonzo's not ready for that. Lonzo's not a part of that. You're yanking him when you need to win games. Yeah. He's not a win now type of prospect. He needs time, clearly. Is he a win and ever type of prospect?

I think those concerns are valid. I'm not willing to move off my initial analysis of him or just idea of him. I still think that around better players, he would be very good. I don't know if that necessarily means he's going to be a superstar. I don't know if that necessarily means he was, like, worthy of the number two pick,

but I think he's the type of guy you want on your team. And if you're looking at the Lakers, they kind of need those guys. If you're saying Brandon Ingram is our kind of de facto Kevin Durant, he's kind of a KD Light where he's the score, he's going to actually be the one putting in the bucket. You want guys to feed him, and I think they make a natural duo for that reason.

I think that we need to lose the expectations put upon him based on the number two pick rather than just like throwing him in like the dumps are all together. That's obviously hard because you have Lefar talking all the time and everybody just, he's such a compelling figure. But I mean, I agree with you. Like I wouldn't take it back if you're magic because I feel like the backlash if he wouldn't have taken Lonza, it would have been even bigger even if Lonza would have like semi-panned out. Yeah, there's no way.

I mean, he basically... The narrative is too strong. It was written in the stars that this was going to happen and it actually came through. So I don't understand... I can't imagine a scenario in which Magic Johnson

coming back to the Lakers, bringing back Showtime, bringing back legitimacy to the Lakers organization and a homegrown talent who has basically been pining to play for the Lakers since he was born

is like right there and he's a point guard and you're just like, eh, you mean you did the DeAngelo Russell deal. Like that was like the bolt level left the dock after that. Do you take that back?

What? The DeAngela Russell deal? Right? Yes. No, I don't take that back. I think that it was best for all parties involved. I don't think that... I don't think it would have worked here. It just was one of those things where I think he kind of like... I'd sort of alienated himself from the team.

I think that he had issues with like both ways going with trust with the coaching staff. And I think it's in the perfect place. I would argue that was more magic's doing than anything. He basically writ him off before he even got to the team. I think that is the concern with magic. He has a very specific viewpoint on how things go. I mean, he's been tweeting about it since, like, for the past 10 years. Yes.

So, and it seems like he's taking that approach to the team. And I don't know if that's necessarily the most prudent way of going about building a team. And there's been a few times this season where, like, you look at the Lakers and you're like, wow, like, Lanzah would be nice next to a score for his guard. Yeah. And you're like, okay, could DeAngelo would have been that guy? Sure. You know, like, it's original history. And I think they made the right move.

But in the same way, you always wonder, like, what if with DeAngel? Because I think, I mean, he's injured right now. now, but I think he played really well at the start for the net. For sure. All right. Another no take back. Would the wolves' ownership take back giving this much control to Tom Tivodeau? All right.

Here's what I think. You guys, hang on with me through this. I think that they... So normally when we have a coach front office hybrid, right? We always regret the front office part. These guys get drunk with power. It's never like, oh man, he's such a good GM. I wish you wouldn't coach.

Right. Okay, that's what this is. Think about all the guys he brought in over the summer. Right? Jeff Teague, Jimmy Butler. And we, Taj Gibson, who everyone was like, whatever, but he's actually playing really well. Right.

He's playing a lot too. All right. All right, Paul. Okay. So I think that he did a really good job in the front office. He's not doing a good job as the coach. They're like rarely doing set plays. Their defense is a mess.

And he's supposed to be a defense. of guy. He can't... And he's playing a starter's 40 minutes now. Right. He's like wearing everyone out and I think that they're really upset about it. Yeah.

It doesn't look like there's great chemistry either both with him. Like it doesn't seem like they have a lot of respect for what he wants them to do and also among the team. So yeah, I would take back the coach part but not the front office part. It seems like this team is missing a NOAA.

And I think people thought, oh, Taj and Jimmy have played for him in Chicago and they're going to teach these kids the right way. But they are missing. I think Jimmy has parts of that in him, but he is kind of a little bit more of a difficult personality, whereas Noah is just such a classic, like, leave it all in the field gladiator guy.

And that even though his body eventually broke down probably because of that, and also because he was wearing like Lecoq Sportive sneakers for most of the beginning of his career. Some Pujos. They don't right now have somebody who is, not only like I am his, Tibbs is floor general, but I am also like,

so 125% bought into the things that he preaches. And Jimmy seems to be more like, what he's asking us to do, like, we're doing it. And then like, these idiots don't know how to execute. You know, and he's like, yeah, and now it's become pretty much a nightly thing on Twitter to like, be like, oh, look at Jimmy yell at Taj.

Look at Jimmy yell at Carl Towns. Look at Jimmy say something kind of sarcastic about how many minutes he's playing, but also sort of mean it. I mean, I don't know what the solution is. I don't see Tom Tibido waking up one day and being like, oh, yeah, it turns out rest is important. Well, to your point, like, I feel like Noah would connect with Towns. And he's kind of the most confounding player on that team because he's been good, but not as good as we probably want him to be. And so I think in that sense, you're right, like somebody like Noah would probably connect with Towns more so than somebody like Jimmy who's just telling him like play defense.

Let me take this one step further. Would you still do the Jimmy Butler trade? Yeah, 100%. Because here's my argument. Yeah, you have to. Here's my argument, though. I think if you just don't import Tibbs altogether, you don't let him be the coach or the GM,

and you just kind of build with the youth, you get Lori Markinen instead of Jimmy Butler. Now you have a much more dynamic team. Or Donovan Mitchell. Or Donovan Mitchell. I think you just kind of, there was this assumption that because Towns was so ready, NBA ready, even though now we're starting to see that he isn't,

like maybe his body, maybe his game is, but maybe not his just approach overall. but I don't know why we hit the fast forward button on this team and said they need to be in the playoffs. They're so good, they need to be in the playoffs, instead of just building more out through the youth, taking advantage of those few precious opportunities at the top of the draft and saying,

no, we're just going to try to go for the third or fourth best team in the West. I see what you're saying, and that makes sense, but you have to think about the actual mentality of the pieces that they have. Everyone, it's very clear, except for Jimmy, with the young guys, is trying to get. their's. They're trying to get their shots. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So you need someone like... Are you talking about the bench guys like

like Shabazz? No, I'm talking about well okay yes. Always Shabazz. Yeah. That's never a question but I'm talking about Wiggins and Carl. Yeah. Right. They're always trying to get theirs. Jimmy and Thibs have very much been the adult but I guess what I'm wondering is would it help if it was more of like a Laker situation, a young Thunder situation

A six situation where they all... Yes. They were just like hey this is we get to 40 this is like basically a title winning team for us. Let's go do this together. They have been on the outside looking in of the playoffs for such a long time that I think that there is some anxiety. I think there's some anxiety around the ownership there. You know what I mean?

Like it's been a long time. They dealt love. They got Wiggins, but Wiggins didn't turn into a franchise player is a very good player. But this kind of goes back to what we were talking about with Durant and LeBron earlier, which is these different situations where you see these incredible talents put in positions every once in a while to basically play at their maximum ability. And

are you seeing that from Towns? Or are we seeing Towns being even though you look at Towns's line and you're like oh man, 32 and 15 must have a good night. But then why is everybody yelling at him and why Well it's a defense right? Like that's where you're like okay we know you can score we know you can pass football we know you can be

an offensive dynamic player but can you defend and like the problem is that this team needs him to defend it's not like just like just for him to prove his worth It's just the team actually needs a seven-footer, like, you know, a guy to be a rim projector. And he's not being that. Yeah, I would just, I'm a little worried that there seems to be mounting evidence and, like, kind of noise that's saying towns, you need to get your shit together. And not only from the media, because we just bitch about everything, but from his own team, Jimmy Butler is just riding his ass constantly. And he still hasn't put it into gear and being like, oh, by the way, I'm a top five talent.

I should go and do what these guys do. I think this ties to your point earlier, which I kind of now agree with. Maybe if you don't have Butler in there, there's like a different kind of chemistry. I think you still make the gamble and if you have the availability to get a superstar like that. But in a way, you're right. Like there would be less pressure, more time to, you know, move the young guys together and have them succeed. Especially in the West this year, I feel like they would still make the playoffs with those two guys, right? They could.

Let's run through a few more of these takebacks rapid fire. Haley, I'm going to go to you for this next one. Do the sons wish they could take back taking Josh Jackson over Deeran Fox, Frankie Smokes, Dennis Smith Jr. Or most importantly, the rocket to the moon, Donovan Mitchell. So do you really want me to talk about Jackson or do you want me to talk about Donovan? We're all clearing out for you here. Okay. I want to tell you guys a beautiful story about a little girl.

Wow, okay. My parents... Kick back. All right, I guess I ruin that. The little girl's me. My parents told me all the time growing up about Daryl Gorphus. Right? Yes. Louisville legend brought us our first championship.

Lifetime Jazzer. The most beautiful full circle thing happened the other night when Donovan Mitchell broke his franchise rookie scoring record. That was such a lovely thing to watch. Wow. I know. I know. But also I just want to say it's so validating to have a Louisville player just kill it in the NBA. And like right away because everyone's like, oh, Terry Rozier, like fun, hipster, off the bench guy to appreciate.

Gorgie Jang, great role player. But, I mean, and okay, going into history a little bit like Earl Clark, Francisco Garcia. But it's so fun for someone to be exciting like that. And I also think it's really cool. It's the same franchise. But I want to give this time also to Paula, who wrote an amazing piece on Donovan Mitchell. Yeah. Well, it was like, I felt really like Haley this week.

because I've blocked about Donovan Mitchell and the wolves. It was kind of like, okay, I hope I impersonated her well. Your hair's looking a little blonde. It's almost hitchcockian. Yeah, you're wearing the same color jacket too. Sort of, yeah, yeah, you're right. Well, I think Donovan Mitchell, I think the comparison I met in the piece was he kind of looks a little bit like Damian Lillard in the sense that like he's so aggressive. Like you almost want the way he's aggressive.

That's what you kind of expect it from Lanzo. Maybe not in a scoring sense, but in up and. down the floor kind of sense. And I think you're seeing that so much from Mitchell. And he's like not afraid to take it. Like the jazz literally need him to be that way right now. And he's doing it. And it's so fun to watch.

Like the way he just can pull up so quickly for a three, but also like fake you out and go to the rim and score like super like he's so nimble and fun and fast. And like all the things you said. And you also pointed out that while he had early season struggles, shooting the three pointer and shooting at all. Is it his field goal percentage going up like 10% a month now? Yeah, it is.

And in your piece, you said with catch and shoot especially, he was like shooting 44% or something. And that with pull-up jumpers, he was the best of all rookies. Yeah. Justin. See? There you go. Just takes time. We've completely neglected talking about Josh Jackson, the number three pick.

We're number four pick at the NBA draft. I was just going to circle back to this. I think Josh Jackson's fine. Okay. I honestly, his offense is going to be a work in progress. His shooting is going to be a work in progress. His handle is a work in progress. Yeah, everything except for his defense.

But he's like a total badass on defense. Yeah. I think what, 2.3 steals a game right now? Yeah, and he gets after it, and I think that's the type of guy I want on my team. Like, he's probably the type of guy you're going to need more around him, which is why the sons, it's good that they keep getting top five draft picks because we'll have enough of that already. Because I think he's the type of guy that can lead your team. I think he's like an emotional sort of leader, and that's fun. Would you do?

They would never do that. I was just thinking like, Josh Jackson. I don't know, they might, it's the sons. They might do what ever playoff wing defender if you could get like a haul for him. I just think if you could get something for him. We're talking cabs here? Yeah, I was kind of thinking about the Brooklyn pick. I know that that's a great pick, but I was just wondering, like, will the next year's pick be definitely better than Josh Jackson?

I think so. I don't know. Wasn't the scenario that with Kyrie to Phoenix, it would have been like Josh Jackson plus something else? And they said no. Right, wasn't that the rumor? Yeah, I think so. The thing about Josh Jackson is... I bet they'd do a take back on that.

Right. Earl Watson would. Earl Watson would definitely do a take back. Let's burn through like one or two more of these. Clippers signing Blake and sign and trading gallo instead of rebuilding Justin. Anyone who says no to this, I'm just saying like walk out of going on. Have you watched a Clippers game recently? No, actually, they are falling into the Pacer zone.

Yeah. It's just very sad. Like I had to watch once when I was working a night shift the other day. I was legitimately upset at the TV for even existing because it's just like there's so much like grouchiness and malaise and DJ doesn't seem like he wants to be there. He's trying out new hairstyles. None of them are really working. It's just like, it's just a very bleak scenario.

They need Milos. They need some burgers in just the postgame locker room to really lighten this thing up. But I don't know how it gets better in a significant enough way to really kind of regret that. I really thought when they hired Jerry West that they would go the rebuilding route. And I think they eventually will. But it was just, it's just not fun to watch. And it sucks as a fan because you want like the late game. You want a late game.

Yeah, you really want to just put something on. Yeah, exactly. If the Kings and Clippers were good this year, life would be far from perfect, but much more palatable. All right, let's wrap up this pod by playing a game called How Is This Happening? Because there's a lot of stuff happening in the NBA right now,

but there are these like sort of under, you know, undercurrents where you're like, wait, how is this happening? And the first one I want to go to Justin with because this is a pet project of his is how TF is boogie this good without AD in a, with a New Orleans team with like an old carburetor from a Chevy than a chassis from a Ford

Dodge Dodge axle, wheel axle. Like what is going on and how is Boogie driving this bus into the playoffs? And a few spinners to go along with the concoction you've made. My latest gripe in the office

and I have a lot of them, Lord knows, is that Anthony Davis has been way better than DeMarcus Cousins and yet everyone keeps saying that DeMarcus cousins has been better. You want to know why DeMarcus Couss is better? strong groin. Yes, his left ad up.

He never falls to the ground, clutching his groin and you're like, oh no, this guy's never playing basketball again. Right. I think it's a little confusing, though, because the pelicans are a minus 12.2 net rating. They're the bizarre of thunder. Well, when AD is off the

core and Cousins is on it, they're actually a giant negative. And when they were playing the Warriors, the game where Boogie, let's point out, got kicked out of. They went on their big run when Boogie was off the court. And so I think it's a little bit of a small sample size. It's called leadership. Maybe look it up in the Cyclopedia Britannica. I do feel like they have kind of done a good job of filling out around them. Like a lot of the guys are going to catch a lot of flack because they're just

spare parts. As you mentioned, Jemir Nelson, who wasn't even on the team to start with. Ryder night for Jemir. St. Joe's strong. Rondo, like the stats hate him. Like he's, I think he's still a negative in the net rating. Everybody else does too, apparently. everyone else those two, but he's like, he gives them kind of like a steadiness that I think they appreciate. But I-Tuan Moore is like having a career year. He's been very good from on the outside. Darius Miller. They just imported from like Germany or something like that. And he's shooting 40% from three. So I guess this is a very long way of saying, I think they have enough that fits Alvin Gentry's system, which they had done a terrible job at before. And the whole thing

about the Suns, the seven seconds are left less era. It was it kind of elevated guys that that kind of just fit what they do. And it's now hard to get those sort of players because everybody wants those players. But they seem to have found enough where it's like, okay, they're eighth, seventh seed in the West type good. And then we get to watch Boogie and KD

in the first time of the playoffs. That'd be great. So like last night he had 40 points in 22. Yeah. Just 40 and 22. Whatever. But I don't think, but like to Justin's point,

I don't think that that's sustainable. That's why I didn't work out in Sacramento, right? Like he couldn't carry a team to the playoffs by himself. Like nights like last night, It's super fun to watch him do that. But he's remarkably better with the AD on the court. Obviously, I'm not breaking any news here, but I think it's fun to watch Boogie now,

but I think AD needs to come back for them to be like a contender. AD covers a lot of his biggest flaws. Buggy still doesn't play a lot of defense. He has four blocks last night, I think, but still, like, he's a below the rim type of player. You're not going to get the same sort of athleticism and imposing force in the blocks when you have a guy like him there. I like watching them play when they're on the support together for sure.

Uh, Haley. How T.F. Did the Spurs revive Rudy Gay? And is this the 37th version of, man, Greg Popovich is the coach of the year? The Spurs just did it again. Yeah, he is, but it's also circumstance. Yeah. With two of your scores out.

Uh-huh. With Tony Parker out with Quy Leonard out. Anyone who is a score. And Kyle Anderson got hurt too, which I think is going to probably put a day. Right. Anyone who can come in and give you aggression on offense is like a $20 bill on the ground. You know what I mean? So it's like they really need him right now. He looks. I'm not going to say he looks. He is very important to them right now. So I think everyone was

like, oh, you know, Achilles injury like 31. He's done. But no, he's still aggressive on offense. He went to that Kentucky rehab center. He did have a great higher education. All right. All right. This is, we're all letting our biases come out today. And so yes, Rudy Gay in Connecticut University. University of Connecticut. Although it's probably important to point out that he was just really wishy-washy at Connecticut was kind of shitty to watch and was throughout his entire career up until this point.

A lot of pent-up frustration. Yeah, I think it probably helps that like this is his last stop. He needs to do it. Powell, how T.F. is Bradley Beal suddenly the wizard's best player? I know that this has an obvious answer. Yes. But we are now getting to see a much

an expanded version of the Bradley Bill universe. I think this is who Bradley Beal. Beal has been all along. He just needed the space to operate and now he has it. It's kind of a little bit, well, it's kind of like a little bit like the buggy thing. Like with John Wall out, like you're going to need somebody to play in there and like score. So I think he's fulfilling that in itself. So I mean, I don't know. He's just a lot of fun to watch and I really enjoyed watching him and the Wizards need that right now. Like otherwise they wouldn't stay competitive in the East. Yeah, but he sucked. Like the first five games that Wall was out. Like he literally, he's

Thank you, Haley. Like, I watched those games. He's not like, 30%. He needed to get the kinks out. You know, work it out. Like, he's not used to this. That's what's going on with Markelly. You just got to get more than a king's out.

Come on. I'm in drop 51. Stop trying to make Markle happen. I'm 100% with Haley. I think even the 51 points was a product of the fact that they didn't have anything else. And that, like, everything had to be Beal just hoisting shots because they have nothing else to really operate the office. Like he took, what was it, 37? Yeah.

Because the only option they have was, Brad, do your thing, my dude. I like Bradley Beals bringing like, you know, Marbury Iverson game back. You have time, Pollo. You have time in this season. Let's end this spot on this nice little note of savagery. That was good. So for Haley, Justin, and Pollo, my name is Chris Ryan. Thanks for listening to Group Chat.

We'll be back next week. Basketball is very good. Nice.