The Ringer NBA Show - 'Group Chat' — Should We Be Worried About the Cavs? Should We Be Excited for the Knicks? (Ep. 154)

Episode Date: November 2, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier are joined by Haley O’Shaughnessy to discuss the Cavs and the Bucks (0:57). Then they bring in Jason Concepcion to examine the current state of the New York Knicks (13:15). Finally, Haley O’Shaughnessy returns to tackle some more teams, including: the Suns, Nuggets, Timberwolves, Pistons, and Pacers (24:52). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Whether you need a room tonight tomorrow or beyond, you definitely want to download the Hotel Tonight app. So what are you waiting for? Get in on these killer last minute deals and download the Hotel Tonight app now. Basketball is very good. The Rockets are better without Chris Paul. Janus will win the MVP. What if Kyrie Irving is actually God? Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to another edition of NBA group chat.

Thank you to Isaac Lee for our new theme music with Justin Verrier. Hi, hey, Haley O'Shaughnessy. Man, I guess we have to talk about the Cavaliers. Yeah. Because that seems to be the story of the week. It started with the Cavaliers.

We are ending with the Cavaliers. They're not good right now. This doesn't seem like a well-constructive basketball team. They don't seem ready for the season. Okay, but did it ever? Like, remember two weeks ago, we were like, oh, are you falling for it? everyone was falling for it.

I feel so validated right now. I feel like you have the take, so just let him fly. Well, okay, so first of all, I don't think that LeBron always does this in the regular season, or he has since he's been like, I need to save my body because I know that we're going to the finals, because I know that the East is trash. Right, seven years kind of does that.

Right. So part of me is like, okay, maybe he's just doing that again. But the thing is, like, with this roster, I'm not entirely sure you can put it on such a low cruise control. Yeah, I'm with Haley on this one. I look at just the offseason that they have. I think we were very much skeptical.

We were. Yeah, this side of the table was skeptical. Someone over there was ready to put like 500 bucks. In retrospect, extremely glad that didn't happen. Well, you look at what they needed in this off season, you're like, oh, wings to play against the Warriors. It didn't get that. They went after Paul George.

All of that fell flat. Paul George, Jimmy. like literally everyone they were supposed to get. They needed an upgrade, especially at the wing. They didn't get that. Defensively, they were always bad. They turned it on in the playoffs enough that they can kind of get to the finals again. But that was always going to be a sore spot.

And also ball handlers. You look at like the whole thing last season was LeBron was griping about not having guys to kind of spell him to kind of give him some time off to be able to take those plays. I mean, he was pretty much throwing shade at Kay Felder the whole season as a result. Yeah. And they didn't get any of that. You have Jose Calderon already playing way too many minutes. Every, well, the last two years, it's like.

like, let me get this over-the-hill point guard. And then they act like it's going to work and it's never worked. Yeah. You guys done? That's it. Wait, I also want to throw a stat out there because I saw this morning, I think this is very relevant. You got data. Dave McMeneman of ESPN said that it was the most lopsided losing streak of LeBron's career.

So they lost the last four by a combined 63 points. Several points. And that has not happened since his rookie year, which it didn't even happen. That was 61 points. Chris. Kyle, play my music. This is Sparta. I don't care.

I'm dying on this hill. We are going to be here in six months talking about the Cavs' finals chances against the Warriors because this is not a normal team. It has never been a normal team. So judging them against things like, do you guys have ball handlers?

Is the defense right yet? Yada yada. Like, did you not get Jimmy? Mutage Juni not get Paul. I don't think this team is well-constructed at all. I don't know if Tyloo can coach. This Derek Rose thing might have been a very bad idea. The Dwayne Wade thing might have been very worse.

Tristan Thompson is hurt. Kevin Lovin is a very bad defender. I don't think it matters. They have LeBron. And unlike Kyrie, I do trust my eyes. I do believe in what I've seen before. And until told otherwise, like, I'll just be happy to be wrong. Have you ever seen a picture of LeBron there?

Has anyone ever seen an actual picture? Okay, no, here's my thing. I kind of agree with you. I do too. I can see where you're coming from. And the East is worse than ever? Like, the Celtics are your own need. I feel like the East might just tear itself apart all season.

I know, but I think that they are actually, so I think that this might, I don't even think that the East's parody will, like, play into the Cleveland's hands or not. I just honestly don't think that they think the season is even started yet. I just look at, I mean, I guess that's fine if you're saying that the Cavs were always going to lose to the Warriors anyway. And I'm just looking at their team, I mean, even going into the finals, their ideal scenario is worse than last year.

Like, Isaiah Thomas, even if he is moderately healthy, is worse than Kyrie Irving. Like, even from a defensive standpoint, he doesn't have the body to throw at some of those guys. And, frankly, Dwayne and, frankly, Dwayne-Crader. Being on the floor at the same time is not, they're not even playing Jake Crotter that much. Right.

Because he's not good. He's like an APR. Right. So I just think when you look back over the last three years of this team, we're talking about a team, that went to the finals and then fired their coach, a team that went to three finals and then fired their GM or parted ways with their GM.

We're talking about a team that got rid of the second best player on the team who was supposed to be the future of the franchise. Like, nothing about this team is normal. Yet somehow, some way at the end of the day, they figure out a way to get there. You know what I mean? And I look around and I do think that if they can start to tinker with their rotations,

if they start to get guys healthy at the right time, They have more depth than Washington, and they have more experience than Boston. And I do think that that stuff will come into play in the playoffs. It is going to be an incredible test of switch flipping at the end of the season. And we're going to find out whether or not, if you've got LeBron, can you essentially be in like second gear for the first three quarters of the season? I don't think that this team will turn into an elite defense overnight, but everything that we know about basketball, about team construction, about where you need to be in terms of like point differential or offensive and defensive rating or whatever. I just think that like, okay, but they have LeBron. And I don't even like being simplistic like this.

I want things to change. I don't like relying on received wisdom like this. But I just have never been, he's never proven us wrong. He just goes to the finals. That's just what he does. LeBron is like one of the like two people in the league right now who can just no matter what take over a game

and decide he's going to win it. Right. But I mean, and the other thing is like in. The other one is Campbell Walker. Yes. I love you so much. actually Victor Oladipo. And they had that team meeting.

And it said LeBron was upbeat in it. I'm like, yeah, because you're LeBron. You know you can do whatever you want. Because he just spent like a million dollars dressing up like Pennywise and throwing a Halloween party. It's very comforting that the other team you mentioned is the heat with Dian Waiters is their best player. Yes. No, but I mean, they're just more vulnerable than ever.

And I think you go into the playoffs. I think like it's possible that the Wizards get their stuff together. They swing a trade. I think they might be able to contend with them. I think if any of these teams that are kind of on the fringes, if Milwaukee maybe gets an Eric Bledsoe, someone like that, I think it's possible. And it's kind of like, it's like an apocalyptic situation.

And you're like, oh, we have this gamma ray. It's been fine before. Like, it took out Mothra. Let's just rely on this gamma ray. I'm just sitting there. I'm like, no, let's like get a new gamma ray. Let's like find the doper technology. You die first in one of these movies because you're worried.

You'd be too worried. I'd be like, it's all right, kid, don't worry about it. You'd be like, no. We've got to get a gameray. Okay. I'm not sure that like I've been saying, okay, the wizards are the ones who can surpass them. But I'm not entirely, like a lot would have to happen. It's not even just the bench.

It's like already this early in the season. I'm like, you guys cannot close a game. Oh yeah, especially when John Wall tries to be Russell Westbrook and just does a very poor imitation of it. Yeah. That's worrisome to me. But for me, I'm like, okay, the Wizards, the Celtics, the Bucks. They're the only ones who can. Yeah, those are the four.

So I think it actually depends more on them and what they do than the Cavaliers. In the Hornets. All right. Let's talk about another team that maybe isn't quite living up to expectations. That's Milwaukee Bucks. Janus, making the leap, MVP candidate. We're all excited. But the team itself is stop and start, right?

And maybe that's like fine for the beginning of season. A bunch of teams are sort of bunched around 500. It's not a big deal. But when you actually look underneath the hood a little bit and you check in with some Bucks fans on Twitter, granted not like maybe the best representation, but a lot of box fans are like out on kid and are really upset about their offense, which is actually, you know, you actually, you know, you think about Janice, you're like, oh, the offense must be doing it. But they're actually like really frustrated with this offense. Right. Actually, I would argue that the defense is worse and more

troublesome, especially like from last night's game. That was like a huge example. But all of their defensive problems are problems that young teams just have and have to work. out. Like last night, like they had tons of fouls, especially in the fourth. The honest got in foul trouble, but I think that two of those were actually offensive. But that is a young team.

You know what I mean? They let someone go off in the fourth. Granted, it was rookie Malik Monk, and like I said, like I've seen that a million times as a Louisville fan, so you know, I'm still haunted by that. But I mean, you have to be able to like guard and stop a guy like that. I'd be more worried about the defense. And last night

actually, like they assisted on, it was some crazy number. Like they assisted on a super high number of their baskets. I think who had like a career high scoring night? Was it Chris Middleton? I think so. Yeah, and then 43 points.

And then Yannis is like always, you know, stunning. So seriously, I would be more worried about the defense. But I know that they're upset with Kidd. I've seen that on Twitter too. Yeah, I mean, Janus has been great. We all love Yonis. I think he's exceeding our expectations, especially at this point in his career. I think not to be reductive, but you look around at the league.

You look at that game the other night against the thunder. and the Thunder have three really good players or two and a half, as one might say. Oh my God. As you might say. But like the books only have just one guy and you look at the roster, I think you're starting to see the cracks starting to form. You look at the entire east.

It's kind of a one superstar conference at this point. And you wonder how long that could take them. And I think the box are a prime candidate to make a trade. I think they need to at this point. So when you look at this team, is there like a way you think that, Is there like an obvious fix, right? Like is there like a you guys can't start Thon or you guys can't, you have to play this person over this person? Well, they started Henson last night because he's a better two-way player and their defense still look terrible.

Yeah, they're relying a lot on Thon, which I think is not a good sign. I mean, it's good to get him these reps early on. Well, kids kind of a gambler, right? Like this is like his thing is like he's going to take a guy and he's going to make him better through experience, right? I mean, that's sort of what he did with Yon is. Right, exactly. I guess just the expectations have risen at this point. You don't have the time to do it.

That pays off so much more than coaches who don't let their, you know what I mean? It pays off in the future. So it just depends on like, are you willing to wait it out? Right. I guess the big thing for this team is just Jabari. Like, what are you going to get when he comes back? Because I think if he does come back and looks like the type of guy he was before, I think this team takes another leap perhaps into maybe a top tier Eastern Conference team

without ever having to give anything up. But other than that right now, I'm just kind of wait and see mode. I really am not struck by this team. I don't think that they're going to really push the calves at all. all. Yeah, get a solid point guard and that would really help. But I mean, honestly, like, sure, Janus is there a one star and you said, like, in the Eastern Conference now,

we're like a one star league, but the bucks have a lot of really solid role play guys. I mean, rookie of the year, granted in the week year, but still Chris Middleton, I like them. Yeah. All right. Haley's going to come back in a little bit and talk about the Sons and the Nuggets and the Wolves and some teams

that are maybe outperforming expectations. But before that, we're going to hear from a quick word from our sponsors. And then we're going to talk to Jason Concepcion about the Knicks. Today's episode of The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by My Bookie. You know who's going to win, right? You're only listening to this podcast for the memes and the lulls. You don't need any information.

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games because they're happening in another dimension. But the thing is like is when you say three, do you count one as one of the numbers? I'm asking. I just want to know. I just want to start a dialogue. What's your problem? You actually start at 10. So these games actually don't count. Right. That's what I'm saying. So if you go like if you say three

and then two games before is that, do you count three and two and so then there's one left over? I think so. How big are Frankie's feet on the moon? On the moon? On the moon? Are we even sure that if he was on the moon, would it they be feet? Well, are we talking meters or are we talking?

I know. What are they in the metric system in France? Are we sure? Or the moon. Yeah. Jason, the Nixon, R3 and 4. Let's just pretend. Sure.

And Christopps Prozingis is one of the 10 best players in the NBA. Sure. Five? Not yet. Okay. I think he has top five potentials for sure. Is he one of the 10 best? I wouldn't...

15? 15, I'd say. 15? for sure. 15 feels right. We did a group post on the ringer just kind of serving Nick's fans and you were by far the most sober.

Yeah. I'm trying to just keep it under control right now because when I saw my son absolutely barbecue Tristan Thompson who we now find out is injured. But is he? These are the questions we need to be asking. I just want to know.

I just want to know like how do legs work? How did tendons work? I just got very excited. He's doing things that I didn't, I did not expect him to be a legitimate candidate for scoring leader this season. Like I thought, okay, 25 points a game, sure. But, you know, it seems unlikely that he would win the scoring title, but it doesn't seem crazy.

And it would have seemed crazy three weeks ago. I mean, he's like unguarded. He's unguardable. I can't tell whether there are beneficiaries of good teams. kind of easing their way into the season. A little bit. Or they are actually taking advantage of the fact that, I mean, or whether they're actually good.

You know what I mean? Whether they're actually not as bad as we thought they were going to be. And Christop's enough to win on any given night. Yeah, I don't think they're good. I think their problem is actually going to be that they're too good to be super bad. Yes. Like, I wonder if we look back a few months from now and we'll say, oh, this is actually worse for them because Christops is so good right now that they can't tank to the level

where they get the type of guy they need next thing. You were talking about this the other day, right? Yeah, because they have a lot of money tied up in Tim Hardaway Jr., Joe Kim Noah, whose body is made of chalk and is suspended. Moon dust. You know, is there dust on the moon? I just want to know. And who's suspended for a number of games whenever he gets healthy for over-the-counter PEDs.

And it's cancer. Yeah. They need cheap young talent. I mean, that's how you build in the NBA. They're looking for that second star. it's not, you know, Nilakina, I like, but is he ever going to be one of your top three players on a team that's capable of winning a championship?

You know, like, I don't know if he projects that high. Who's the secondary star on this team? They're looking for them. They have a couple things going for them, though. Sure. Okay, so first of all, they have weirdly immediately become lovable again, which is like they take a year off from being lovable. They'll have like a bad, crappy veteran team that's overpaid

and they all hate each other. And then they have young players and they look good. They have, they're always going to be a phrasian destination no matter what. Are they? Yeah, I feel like it's just New York's cool. Like, it's really nice to live there. Like, and if you get paid really well and you live in New York, like, that's fun. I got to tell you, I agree that that will come back.

I just feel like the stink from the way they handled Mello and poisoning us over the summer is real. You know, Zach Lowe reported, our former colleague, Zach Lowe reported that, it's a destination of last resort for a lot of people just the way they treat their players. Like obviously Phil is gone. A lot of that regime is gone, but James Olin still owns the team. Sure.

And like people are, there's going to be a residual, like, didn't like the way the Mellahappan thing that's going to go through the league. But I think in a year two plus like, I kind of think Scott Perrin seems to know what he's doing. To some extent.

I mean, that Tim Hardaway Jr. contract aside, was that his? Yeah. Was it his? No, it was Mills. Mills.

Mills is last resort. It was like, that was like when, someone's child, like, grabs their phone and then accidentally orders, like, $500 worth of apps. And then David Griffin fell off the map as soon as that happens. And you realize that, like, rather than actually go through Apple customer service to try and say, like, I didn't mean to do this, you're just like, I'm just going to take the hell. I'm just going to eat it.

Well, this is where Porzingis is actually so important. Like, the fact that he's playing so well now might, like, hurt them in terms of the draft. But now it's like, oh, guys around the league, maybe when they do get cap space in, like, in, like, 20 years or whatever they do actually have it, like, oh, let's go play with Porzingis. He's the next guy. I think he's the type of guy that people would want to win with. Yeah.

I mean, that's the whole point of the NBA is get a guy like that on your team. Get a top 10 player, top five player on your team. And he will be that. I don't think anything speaks more highly of the, like, of the way that we have evolved as basketball fans

than the fact that Frank Tilakina, Nilakina, Frankie Smokes, has nightly defensive highlight compilations. now? Like five minute long. The hive is buzzing. Here's Frank guarding a guy. His hedging is so great.

Look at the way he angles his body, guys. Ice. Look at that dude, ice. Aware of the pick. He's really good. Defensively, he's really good. He's top 15 in steals, averaging two steals a game. His defensive instincts are great.

Not a good shooter. Right. And his handle is extremely rickety. Can we chat a little bit about not being a good shooter? Yeah. This is something you wrote about in this case you wrote about whether or not the league is catching up to the sort of model of Magic Johnson. And basically this idea that with Janus and Ben Simmons, have we already transcended the idea that you need to be a good shooter to be the point guard? And, you know, there were plenty of point guards that are not, like, I would say knock down shooters.

And then you've got like Rondo. Right. But could we actually have already changed the channel to like, there's some paradigm shifting going on? And, like, shooting isn't as important from every position in the perimeter like that? I think the difference is you need to have shooting around the floor that's not your point guard. And also, the thing with Simmons and Janus is they're just huge. And they can run at you at speed and they can see over everything. Yes.

And so, therefore, you know, they can really get anywhere they want to on the court, which mitigates the need for that three-pointer. Does that work when a guy is normal size? Like, you know, Nillikina size? Sure. Does it work when they're under 610? And without a handle, I think Lanzobal is as the example for the answer being no. Yeah. And Nillakina will need to develop a three-pointer.

Right. I think it's becoming more that the rest of your roster needs to be able to shoot. Yeah. So it's not so much more like two or three guys. Now you have to have four at a minimum. Right. And like you look at the warriors, they're successful because everybody can shoot. Sort of the invert Stan van big man with shooters.

It's now point guard with shooters. Yeah, Simmons is out there, like, tossing it back to Embed on the fade to the three point line. That's basically impossible to guard A. And B, when you're talking about Janice and Simmons, you're talking about two guys who can get from the three point line to the rim in two steps. Yeah. And jam it on anybody. Yeah, that's the thing about Janice is like he takes off from the dotted circle. Yeah.

And you have to guard him out there. Yeah. That's so wild to have that be like a move. Yeah. You know, like, it's just like, well, you could do a jab step and then you can try like, no, this guy just can take off from like 11 feet and make something happen. Yeah.

All right. So when do you think the honeymoon ends? For the Knicks? Yes. Or the, well. Last night. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because the rockets are exactly the kind of team that's, the rockets have victimized the Knicks a lot over the years.

and they're the exact kind of team that victimizes Nix. There's a lot of motion puts their defense into total disarray. You have to communicate against them, and you have to communicate on switches, and it's not going to happen. I think the honeymoon will roll on, especially if Porz Ingus keeps scoring 25, 25, 28, 30 points a game. Because Nix fans just want to see their young players develop.

Like, put those young guys out there. Nila Kina, play them big minutes. Hernang Gomez, throw them out there. I see it. It's surprising that the Knicks haven't been lovable and bad simultaneously in like forever. Like that seems like a pretty easy combination. It's just like, oh, let's invest in hope and youth. Like that seems like a pretty easy thing, but they've never been able to get it right.

Yeah, I mean, like every time if you look at the, the interesting thing about the Knicks is they have this reputation for being terrible at drafting, but actually they're quite good. Yeah. They're quite solid drafters, you know, Neney. Channing Fry. Channing Frye, Areza, these are all good players. They're rarely drafting from a position of power and they often get useful players. Yeah, but the thing is like, with the exception of guys like David Lee, they don't stick around to find out what's going to happen. Like if they had drafted Jermon Green, they would have traded him.

This is just like I will regret saying this now, but the Perry, Hornacek and weirdly Steve Mills, who I don't really, all I know is that he has been present for all the disasters, which is sort of like guilt by association. they seem like they're all singing from the same hymn book and Hornacek actually gets to run whatever he wants to run this season. I know that there's a lot of debate about whether or not he knows what he's doing or not. But I think they look pretty good, you know? They'll probably beat the Suns on their next game

and like that's 500 and they could keep trucking along. I agree. There just hasn't been like a jump, a Jack Rabbit team who's gotten out to like an 8 and 1 record yet. So like there's a lot of hope there. Okay. Thanks for joining us, man. Thank you guys.

Okay, Haley's going to come back in just a second. but first a quick word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Ringer MBA show is brought to you by Wish. You want to save big? Over 300 million smart and thrifty shoppers have discovered Wish, the mobile mall app that connects you to thousands of merchants. Wish makes it easy to shop fashion, shoes, electronics, kitchen gadgets, and more directly from the makers.

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by using ringer MBA as a promo code get that Kuzma jersey just download and open your wish app find things that you didn't even know you needed and enter my code ringer MBA for 20% off your purchase okay thanks to Jason for joining us that was that was illuminating and uh we're Haley's back he's back from the moon and let's talk about some teams that are maybe like kind of outperforming their expectations a little bit and we'll start with the Sons because I think the expectations were this is going to be the worst team in the league and they will be lucky to score 80 points a game and now all of a sudden they're 500 right? Yeah, close to it.

Yeah, they're 3 and 4 I think. Have they lost like one game under Triano so far? Yep, 3 and 1. And Bender back? Bender's here. He never was here before so he's not really back. They look good. T.J. Warren looks like like the second score that Booker needed.

Yes, but you know like those days when it's pouring rain and then you're like... No, we live in Los Angeles, so I don't do that. True, true. But being from Kentucky, I'll just let you guys know about what rain is. So, like, it's going down, then you're like, stopped and you're like, I'm going to go to the store. But then you go outside and it starts again.

Yeah, that's what you're... The storm is coming. Yes, and maybe it's like going to be a lighter rain. But, like, rallying around the fact that, like, being around this coach was miserable. Like, you could kind of get that from, like, the Sun's locker room and being around a guy who didn't want to be here was miserable. It's easy to, like, go on this spree of like, oh, we're united now. This is a new start. But at the end of the day,

like, the tools are still young. The tools still aren't exactly there. So I'm not hopeful that they're going to like make the playoffs or anything. No, I don't think they'll make the playoffs, but it is interesting. Like they were the biggest reason for like teams lopside of point differential. I think like Portland and Oklahoma both had like were one and two. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, oh, they played the suns. Yeah. Single handedly made Lanzo ball look good. Yeah. Like that's the only reason all of his stats are up. Yeah, I know. team I think it's encouraging at the very least you want to see signs of life from some of these guys I mean we were talking about this just last week we were saying oh it's kind of people are

freaking out about how bad they were but maybe was just probably an optics thing sure that they were always intending to be bad that being bad is actually good for them in the future I think this is kind of the right level of bad you want from a team like this yeah it's not like two every week or something like that yeah you're not getting calls from Adam silver and on the same time you're seeing some things from the young guys that and Booker really needs to be a front line score. He needs to show things on the defensive end. T.J. Warren, a guy that I really have never liked. But when he's going off for 40.

Why haven't you liked him? Just because he's got that weird mid-range jumper game? Yeah, I'm never a fan of those type of guys. I never saw the shooting there. He was always a score first and maybe not enough of the other stuff. Didn't get enough guys involved. I felt like he was more of a stopgap sort of guy at the wing. And he still might be that. But, I mean,

if he can score 40, that's a sign of life that you didn't have before. But I think you want to see Chris do things. I think you want to see Bender do things. This is good. This is about as good as it's going to get for Phoenix. It's wild to see how much crisper and like with a, like just, they are a decidedly different team under Trano than they were under Watson. It's like, you wonder what Watson was doing. Well, everyone says that his stuff was like elementary. Right. You know, so it's just like that frustrates players. Yeah. You know what I mean? Especially if you had like a good college coach or a good former coach, like that is

very frustrating. Yeah, I guess being Tyson Chandler's like really good friend isn't qualifying for our head coach. It's not a good thing to be. I mean, it didn't get them Lamarcus Aldridge so. Let's talk about another team that sort of turned it around. I think we had much higher expectations for them. So the Nuggets who kind of continue to win games and this is one of those teams where like

if you check a box score at the end of the night, you're like, how did you guys win this game? Everybody here scored 12 points. And yet Yokic has like six points and 28 assists and 28 boards and you're just like, oh, I guess that might be it. But they are kind of recovering from an early

season stumble, and they were a really sexy pick for a playoffs team. Have you seen anything to them in the last week that's like, oh, they figured this out? I think last night was probably as hopeful as you're going to get. I think just because we expected the offense to be there. And when you score 129 points on a Raptor's team, that's pretty good that Danny Chow will say is the best team in the East. Right. I think that's what they're going to have to do because I'm still really worried about the defense.

They're relying a lot on Jamal Murray, which I think was kind of like the sneaky story about this team going into the season. You look at Millsap, you look at Yokic, Wilson Chandler's fine. Gary Harris is apparently like the second coming of James Hardin or whatever. But Jamal Murray, they don't really have a point guard. They got rid of Jemir Nelson for some reason. Just to add Richard Jefferson, who's 40 and doing questionable things to stay on the court. Playing Moodye now. Yeah. Right. I think you need something at the point guard. And I think Murray is starting to show signs of life, but I'm still a little concerned that he's going to be the guy there. Yeah, they're really only playing Moodye a 21 minutes a game. So it's not like

they're like riding him. So they are asking Jamal to do playmaking and I, you know, obviously when they have somebody like Yokic who's creating from that position, it's sort of it's sort of a paradigm changing idea about like how you run

your offense. Like do you really do just need somebody to bring the ball up if somebody is passing out of the post like that? Right. What do you think about their chances to get to the playoffs? I mean, have you revised your opinions about them at all? I'm not. I'm not. sure just yet because I need to make sure that what happened last night can be consistent and not just like random you know like once a week type thing like when all of them are clicking

together on offense and also like Justin said their defense has to be better yeah so I'm not sure the defense is going to come I think that them clicking like that on offense could be consistent but you know what are we like seven games in yeah I mean two weeks into this season which I guess is part of a larger conversation about like the way that we've sort of been evaluating this team's where we've already panicked about like three or four different teams Some legitimately, though. Yeah. You're talking about the Cavs again?

I am. And then, you know, a team like the Sons can go from, oh, God, like they're making the Sixers of 2014-15 look like, you know, the Lakers with Kobe and Powell and the Mar-O-O-Dum. Right. But, you know, they'll figure, like, this Nuggets team's going to go through its lumps. I'm really curious to see where the separation is going to come in the West because right now, you know, they have like these teams out at the bottom where it's like New Orleans, obviously dealing with a bunch of. bunch of, you know, with the injury for cousins. But right now it's like, New Orleans is three and five and the Lakers are three and four. But everybody else is 500 above.

Oh, and the Kings and the Mavs suck, but I wasn't even talking about them. But that whole Phoenix and above are all bunched together. Right. You know what I mean? And so I'm curious when the separation will come and where it will come. Will it be bunched up where the seventh team could get to the fourth seed really easily? And how that will affect how teams play on a night-to-night basis. Yeah.

Things aren't as clearly defined. as I think we thought they would be going into the season. I think part of that is just because the Warriors have maybe started a little slower. I wonder if that's a product of just when the season started this year too. Chris Paul is out so the Rockets just aren't the same team that we thought they would be.

Kawhi Leonard is out. So the Spurs haven't taken that leap. So we were a Spurs Warriors game on Thursday night that were kind of like mildly which of course means the Spurs will just like work them tonight. 100%. Rudy Gay is going to go for 50. Yeah. But I do think that those three teams we just mentioned will eventually separate to the top.

And then everyone else we're going to have to determine. But those three will go to the top and like they were last year. The funny thing is it's almost like this, like the same way we're talking about Milwaukee, where we were like, oh, Milwaukee, we had these high expectations, but they're not quite as good.

Strangely, like, I actually find watching, like, the wolves, I'm not impressed with a single performance by them, yet they are. Did you watch the Thunder Games? I did watch the Thunder games, and I thought that they were, like, by far, like, the Thunder should have beaten them in both games.

I think the most impressive thing to that as somebody who's watch the wolves a lot the last three years is that they were able to take a very close game and close it. Never happened before. You still never happened. Four of their five wins have come

with under three points or less. That is one major solution because I was telling you guys like in a little bit ago that they lost so many games last year. In the third quarter even. Right. Like where they would just get worked in the third quarter. So what's the change?

Jimmy Bellar. Okay. Jimmy Beller and then also what Jimmy Butler gives the other guys. Andrew Wiggins, for example, the first the reason that they won ended up winning the first Thunder game. I mean, he literally just opens up so much for him that he never had before.

And it's a different, I don't know exactly, you know, it's not the traditional like, oh, spacing, like spread everyone out, but he lets him cut and it's been amazing to watch. The Wolf's fun. No. I refuse to watch them for the most part, just because I find them to be a slog. Yeah. Like, I'm sure it's fine, but like even towns,

that's a guy I really loved coming out of college. I really wanted him to be the next guy. Like, as someone who had to watch Anthony Davis a bunch, he was always kind of the guy you wanted Anthony Davis to be because he was defensive, like, just monster, had the potential to be that. But also was big enough. He could shoot already.

He didn't have to develop that on the next level. And I look at him, I'm like, why aren't you in the MVP discussion? You should be that good. Carl is really hard to watch on defense. Yeah. Really hard to watch on defense. He's spacing out a little bit a couple of times. I've been, like, people have been, like,

he does. And it's frustrating because it's like, we're like, dude, you have the athletic tools. Like, you should be able to do this. And especially, like, against the Pelicans where he's facing two former UK guys. And also, like, Anthony Davis, you got to think, like, when Anthony Davis is about to play him, he's like,

this guy is taking my spot as, like, the power forward to be in the conversation. You know what I mean? He's kind of surpassed him. And because, you know, Davis has been stuck on a couple of pelicans teams, so they, like, really go at him. There's a couple of teams, though, like, with the wolves where I'm, like, profoundly unattained by their bench units,

and that's, like, a big part of it. Like, sounds like I don't actually... You're not into Boz? Yeah. Not Shabbaz, just Bob. Yeah, it's like, I find, like, I actually enjoy watching, like, the weird thunder second unit with Felton and Abrinas and then one of the stars. He's really good. Yeah, he is.

He's really fun. And, like, I enjoy it. We've come full circle. Yeah. Whereas, like, the Wolves bench unit, whether it's with or without Jamal, I'm just like, God, this sucks. Because it's, like, Tibbs ball, but with guys who are bad. Right. I will say that Tyos Jones is getting more playing time because he's very frustrated with Teague on.

defense and he is entertaining. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure Tee loves that. Yeah. I will say that we were a little worried about the wolves there for a little bit. They didn't start as hot as we thought. They would, but we look at the standings now and they're effectively third in the Western

Conference. I think it's big while some of the teams that we expect to rise to the top are still kind of figuring things out waiting for guys to get back. Some of these teams are just banking wins, which if you think about it, I mean, people, we always say that the beginning of the season doesn't mean much, but it kind of does. Yeah. Like, and I think there's actually been evidence. Magic are going to go to the playoffs.

I bet I 100% think they're going to the playoffs and I want 100% give it to them based on the fact that they got off to a really hot start. They believe in themselves. They can beat any team pretty much. I was present in, not in Philly, but I was present for a Sixers team that started the season 10 and O and like pretty much went to the finals off of that in 2001.

So it's like you can really do a lot for yourself by having a great start to the season. Right. Their energy right now feels like Miami's second half of last. season. They're like, you know what, we're a unit. So funky. You have no idea where like all the points are going to come from on any given night. It's a perfect situation for Jonathan Isaac to just

do stuff. Apparently, Aaron Gordon is like, is just amazing. Better than Seth Curry from the three. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I've been saying that. 60%? It's up there. It's wild. Is that sustainable? Probably not. That's saying the entire season actually. 60% from three.

Yeah, the entire season. The shot doesn't look bad though. Yeah. Like, I'm encouraged by what he's doing. And Vusivik is like, I think they've been able to Kevin O'Connor wrote about this a little bit the other day. I think his stretch provides more space for some of these other guys. And just allowing guys like Fornier, who were fine, to do a little bit more. I mean, when they have the space, when they have opportunities, I think these are the guys that are good enough to take advantage of a soft eating conference.

Yeah. Let's wrap this up with a little bit of buying and selling the Wall Street way. Is it about to crash? Like, what does that mean? Yeah, I know, seriously. I want to hear about you guys buying and selling stock on a couple of players here. so I'll just toss some names out of there. All right.

Let's start with Victor Oladipo. Mr. Indiana. You know, that's my boy. Yeah. I'm glad to see him thriving. This is exactly what I was hoping for. Now that he's out from under the yoke of Russell Westbrook. Right.

Him and Kevin Ali. Right. Well, I mean, what are you going to do when you place like a lesser player trying to do the exact same thing next to like one of the best guys. Yeah. Let's just be clear. Like, I watched those games last year. Like, Ola Depot sucked.

It wasn't like Russell's fault that he was like. Even when they let him handle the ball, like in the second unit in the playoffs, like he drove in, like, passively would not draw fouls. I'm like, dude, this is supposed to be a game. Like, you're not posted up, like, on the perimeter anymore. Like, this is what you're supposed to be good at. I 100% chalked this up, by the way, to the Oregon-style uniforms that Indiana's got now. I'm not in on this.

Yeah. No, oh my God, I love them. Are you serious? They're dope. They're fine. Just in one for Christmas, so this is very weird. I'll rocket if you buy it for me. Which player did you get him?

Depot. So, this is uncomfortable. I'm taking it back. So you're buying more Depot stock? Or do you think this is as high as the stock is going to go? I'm just keeping my stock. I'm happy for him. Okay.

I'm kind of selling. Nice. I don't really get it. That's why I like. I've never been a huge old Depot fan. I know he went second overall, but that was a really weak draft. You're looking at a guy who career-wise is shooting 35% from three. He's currently shooting 50%.

I just don't know. I mean, I think he works for this team because he kind of has to be the guy. And we talked about this going into the season. Right. If the Pacers are going to be good, Oladipo really needs to be the front line guy. I'm just not sold on him being that dude. I think, you know, they're reaching for stars.

And Sabonis isn't going to shoe 100% from the field for the rest of the season. The Aaron Gordon Factor. Buying or selling on the 5 and 3 Detroit Pistons. Haley. Well, I mean, the Pistons overall, I'm not really sure how long they can keep this up. Tobias looks great, but he's also like very inconsistent. So we'll see how that.

He also definitely thinks that he's like vintage mellow. Someone called him Diet Mello on Twitter the other day. Did he respond? I don't think so. But it was a great line. Wow, that's great. It's really good. I'm stealing that.

I am proud of Drummond, but right now through 20 attempts, he's shooting 70% from the line. Where you go? Great. But at this time last year, he was under 50% and that obviously dipped down. Sure. Tremendously. So hopefully this will even out at like 60 something. 60 something.

That would be a still huge improvement. Right. The Lakers game put the fear in me. Yes. They should have kind of gone in there and taken care of a team. That's pretty bad. How are you going to end that trip like that? Yeah. The Lakers are looking to get like smash on a nightly basis.

They're just like not all there. So you can get in there and get a victory. So yeah. Right. I mean, you're kind of counting on a lot of things maintaining to the season, drum and shooting free throws, which like I hope so. Yeah. That'd be nice for him. Stanley Johnson can't have zero points.

Right. You know what I mean? It's because he's on defense. Right. Yeah. And we're as we're recording this, there's some conversation about Reggie being involved in a trade for Reggie Jackson being involved for a trade for Eric Bloodsoe,

which should be interesting. I don't get that, though. That's positive if you looked at it before the season, but... I would not necessarily want Reggie Jackson as the point guard for my young team. Well, if everything they're doing is... Well, I'm going to positive for the Pistons. Yeah. If they're doing everything off the pick and roll, like who is running that with Andre Drummond?

And isn't Bledso kind of just a diet, Avery Bradley, to a certain extent? I guess so, yeah. That's true. I don't really get that. So you're buying piston stock or are you just keeping what you have? What a conservative. I know, I'm like, I'm not taking any risks. You know what? I'll buy a little bit. I'll buy it. I'm not like, I'm not selling the farm to buy the stock.

I don't know where the points come from. Yeah, I'm selling. I wouldn't be surprised that they made the playoffs just because I don't know who's filling out the east. Right. Other than that, they're not going to be a force. This is pretty easy when buying or selling Benson in stock. I don't even know if you can afford it. Oh my. At this point, like, no, yeah, I can't.

I just want to piece. I want to taste it. Oh my God. That IPO. He's great. He's awesome, man. How do you feel? I feel electric.

He, he, uh, the hairs on the back of my next stand up every time he has the ball. I never know where he's going to pass it or if he's going to take three steps and just jam it. He is, I keep saying this out loud and now it's starting to be true. He is Jason Kidd and T-Max body. But I just. Okay. Sure. It took me a second.

to process that one. But maybe. I just, I love it. I love watching him play. The Sixers actually have like a weird logic to the way they work right now. I'm not like in love with their fourth quarter rotation sometimes when it's like last night like it was like five minutes left.

They were up by six and Ben was throwing alley-oops to Jared Bayliss. That was not a good idea. So I'd love to see a little bit more like definition to their to their closing lineup. But they look good, man. They're going to be like around 500, I think. Yeah. You know when somebody like, make, has this highlight and you're like. like in the back of your head, all of a sudden, you're like, LeBron, he has done that.

Yeah. It's also like when he's driving up the court and then he goes from fourth to fifth gear, he's basically unguarable. Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that because when I saw him in Summer League, not this past year, but the year before, I was asked one of those games in Vegas. I was like, man, just the way he carries himself is very LeBron. Yes. Like, I don't know if it's just like the monotone facial expressions,

but he has like poise and he has the big body and he has just this, like feel like he knows where everything is going. Everything, the ball is whipped everywhere, too. Like, the passes have such, such speed to them. Can you believe that we are having a Sixers conversation and haven't yet brought up Embed? I know, but that's actually good for Embed. That is good for him to go out. And if he has 12 and 10, nobody's just like, what's the matter with Embed?

Or if he has a left-hand contusion, we're not having, like, a group, like, obituary for his career or whatever. It's like, everything's fine. Are you worried that they eventually will not? get along no I'm not worried about that okay I can't worry about that I was thinking control what you can control right if they win they'll be fine that's what I think right I think the same thing for the Cavs I think the same thing for any NBA team it's like as long as they're winning cures all chemistry problems right right yeah so I we would buy Simmons stock but we can't afford it

since I got to have my personal little platform there Justin are you buying or selling Campbell Walker stock I want all of it yeah I'm gonna buy every single piece even though it's gonna cost too much like I'm gonna go into bankruptcy just buying Campbell Walker stock right now. I just get the vapors watching them, man. Can he get, like, can he jump up a level, not in terms of his quality of play, but in terms of like the level of respect he gets? Right.

Like, is he going to be in the conversation? Because last year, so often it was like him and the Hornets were never in the conversation. Yeah. We were never talking about them. I think this would be the year just because the East is going to be soft in terms of all-star bids. I think if he doesn't get one, it would be just like a travesty. Yeah, Kyrie, him and John Wall should make the All-Star team. Right.

I think Isaiah Thomas. kind of like blocked him out a little bit because that was like in a right nowhere kind of like oh yeah there's like another really great guard here right I think it's taken a while for people their first introduction to Kebba from the first couple seasons they catch up to what he is now sure like I was even skeptical going I hate to admit this going into the NBA just because I'm like what is he in the NBA right he's like a big shot big heart guy yeah and those guys guys guys yeah look at Shabazz similar type of player just didn't work and then like he came up in an era of point guards where it's like

Chris Paul, guys who were distributing very classic point guards, but the league is kind of caught up to him. Yeah. And way, like, he's caught up to the league because he wasn't a good shooter. And now he's like a plus shooter. It's sometimes on the floor now, he's the best guy on the floor. And you look at what they have, like, Dwight Howard, like, what are we going to get from the rest of the season?

Mleek Monk, like, I like him, and we all like him, but, and we all like him, but is he going to be the type of guy you can count on? I think Malik's going to have, like, ridiculous games and then games where you're like, you have to get this guy out of here. Yeah. I mean, Kempba's making it all work. Do you think, okay, that's what I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you, like, do you think that the change in roster, like, guys like Malik and guys like Dwight are making this happen for Kemba or Kemba is

making everyone look good? I think it's a little bit of both. I think Dwight, he's really brought it this year. I said to Kevin Clark in the office, former Orlando resident, that Dwight can only thrive in the most boring cities in the NBA. Except for before the season. Yeah, because now they're popping up. He shouldn't be getting in trouble in Charlotte. There's nothing to get in trouble with. Even Jeremy Lamb has looked good like by association. Wow, this has really turned into the Huskies alumni. I know. I mean, the fact that they're doing well without Nick Batum, like, and they have to work

Nick Batum back into that team when he was like the only other good player on that team last year. I think it's a good sign. That's a plus. If I'm dying on a hill, it's that Steve Clifford is a top five coach. Wait, playing his music, Kyle. Give me it. Love it.

Give me Steve Clifford, top five coach in the NBA. I love that dude. I don't think anybody's attacking that hill. It's just you being like, let's fight. And everybody's like, yeah, he's a pretty good coach. All right, let's party on this hell, then. Let's party on this self. Like the aggressive guy in the cafeteria.

For Haley, for Justin, I'm Chris. We'll be back next Thursday with NBA group chat. Thanks for joining us. On the moon. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Hotel Tonight. Things change.

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