The Ringer NBA Show - 'Group Chat': The 12 Questions of Christmas With Bill Simmons (Ep. 182)

Episode Date: December 21, 2017

The Ringer's Justin Verrier is joined by Danny Chau, Paolo Uggetti, and HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons to discuss the Christmas Day slate and beyond through 12 questions, including: "Who are the 76ers?" (1:50), "Should the Cavaliers trade the Brooklyn pick?" (14:50), and others. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the NBA group chat edition of the Ringer NBA show. I am Justin Verrier. I am not Chris Ryan. He is currently in Philadelphia, eating a bunch of slow-roasted pork and commiserating with a bunch of Markhal Fultz fans. They tell him that everything is fine there.

With me today, though, we have Paulo Ugetti. How's it going? Danny Chow. Merry Christmas. And joining us from the Cabana Suite at the Sunset Gower Studios, Mr. Bill Simmons. Happy holidays. How are you guys?

Great. So we're doing a little different today. with the holidays coming up. Obviously, Christmas is a big deal in the NBA. We have, what is it, five games on Christmas Day on Monday. And so we're going to do 12 questions of Christmas focusing on some of the teams there and really just kind of getting a snapshot of the league. Starting off, Sixers versus Knicks, noon Eastern on Monday.

We'll start with the Sixers. First question, who are the real Sixers? The team that started 11 and 7 are the one that just lost seven of its past eight. I mean, look, I'm not here to give any hot takes here. I think there's obviously somewhere in the middle. I think Embed missing, you know, three of his... So he's missed, what, six games in total, three in these last eight games. I think that plays a big role in their slide.

I think without him, they don't really have a guy who can kind of create laden games. I think that's kind of where you lose it with Simmons being. being the guy he's just not comfortable taking shots anywhere past 15 feet late in games and that's kind of like 8 feet I'm trying to try to be you know I'm a little worried I'm not gonna lie

we watched him that game was it last Friday his back just stiffening up as they played him like 50 minutes and be yeah that was I don't know I mean back was an issue going into the draft and that's like the one injury other than the foot one that kept him off the court for two years I also saw that like they were saying that they don't know the actual reason or

when it actually happens, so the Sixers aren't being very clear about that, which, I mean, it's very Sixers of them to do, but also, like, doesn't, like, provide a time for them going forward. Like, they say he's going to miss the next two games, I'll be back for Christmas. But, like, I don't know, like, any uncertainty with Embedon injuries and the Sixers as a whole, I mean, I'm sure we can get into Faults for sure, too,

but it's just worrisome for the team. Let me ask you guys this. Yep. Let's say, hypothetically, you get $100,000 if Joe Embedead plays 65 games or more. in any season in his career and if he doesn't, you'd die. So 65 games

once. But if he doesn't, you die, let's say $500,000 right now. Those are two options. What would you pick? Hypothetically. I mean, I risk it. I risk it.

Danny also has a death wish. Let's just put that out there. I wouldn't go near whatever the other side was for the 65 games. I don't think he ever. does it. It just don't. There's been too many injuries already,

and it just doesn't seem like it's NBA schedule. You've got to play 82 games over the course of seven months. It doesn't seem like he can play six in a row. Well, I think, especially given all talk about how, like, there needs to be less games in the season, I think like it would be smart for them never to play

65 games if they can get away with it. You know, that way he can get ready for, like, be rested for the play out. It's kind of what they're doing already. Right. I'm saying hurt. And that's why I think I would not take the bet. Like, I would say Like, he's not going to play. If your best player is somebody that a game goes into overtime and your entire fan base is immediately petrified

and he's only like 23, like that's not a good sign. It would help if they had another play other than just a bead post up and just going at some of those big. That's the subpart of this question is you're asking, like, which Sixers team is this? I watch them and they don't seem to me like they're well coached, and I don't trust the rotations that he has and the offense that they have,

and it just seems like maybe there was too much losing and too much weirdness over too many years. years and he just can't adjust Brett Brown. But you see basic stuff. Like there's games where you're just like just put T.J. McConnell in. Let him run a real offense. Ben Simmons, like that OKC game, Paul George just shut down Ben Simmons. That was it.

He took him out of the game. All right, what's plan B? There's never a plan B. And that's what would worry me. When I watched that game, the one thing I thought of was they could really use someone like Foltz. They need someone that can create a little bit off the bounce, someone that can stretch the floor when he doesn't have the ball.

And really all they had was in Bede. Like, yeah, maybe McConnell would have done a lot of, little bit, but I just don't know what they have. So at that point, I almost kind of, I feel sorry for Brett Brown because it's really, that's one of his few options that he has. Simmons is incredible. He's still a rookie. Right.

And it's really hard to play well for seven straight months. Just in general, Jason Tatum has games when, as you know, I watch every something game. Jason Tatum has games when he's just, you know immediately. He's like, I doesn't have it tonight. He's being a rookie tonight. And then there's other games where it's fired up. He doesn't need to have it. Simmons has so much pressure on him.

with the way they've built that team that, you know, you have these games. And it's like Friday night national TV and Paul George is like, I'm shutting this guy down tonight. That's tough. He's 20. That's kind of the thing, right? Like, we're asking, like, which team are they? The problem is that, like, the expectations got too high,

like way too quickly, especially for a team. But by who? By their fans. Yeah. Their fans are the ones to play. I mean, their fans have them in the finals. It's like year four now. The overall was 42 and a half.

Yeah. It was a lot. But I know, speaking to what Powell was saying before about, like, maybe 65 is just like, a good amount of games. You look at what the spurs are doing. The best thing about them is they don't need anybody for 82 games. Like I think about this in regard to Anthony Davis. Like, yeah, there's some issues there and clearly he needs to get right and they need to figure

out the perfect solution to kind of making the most of what he can do. But like, if you have 65 games of Anthony Davis, like for most teams, that would be enough. Right. And there's just kind of been a regression for a lot of their players as well. Covington, who had an incredible first, you know, 20 games of the season, he was shooting like 46% from three. In the last 10 games, I actually looked this up after yesterday he shot two for 12. In the last 10 games, he's shooting 30% from 3.

What are his stats since he signed that contract? No, seriously. That's fair. Yeah. That would be a good split. Because I do think, like, there's human nature parts of this too, right? He goes from, he's fighting and scrapping, and he gets weighed by a G-League team and all that shit. And then he gets this huge contract.

He's got a lot of people in his life. He's making real money for the first time. And that's, you know, that's a lot to deal with. and all of a sudden your focus is off a little bit. I still think that guy's excellent. They need to figure out who is the second creator when teams take out Simmons. Because, and JJ's been,

he's had his moments this year where he's been awesome. But they're putting, compared to the responsibility he had last year in the clippers where he just ran in a circle and occasionally got the ball. Now he's like the facilitator.

I feel like I've seen a couple. Then he won more. Yeah, crunch time like games where it's like, okay, JJ, go and like create a shot or like find a shot. Yeah, they force them to put on the floor. That's not what you want. That's not what you want.

Yeah, since like Orlando. I think it was a bad sign when they had to trade for Trevor Booker. That was like their fourth big and already kind of pretty big rotation. To me, that signal that they weren't really sure about Embed and they're not really sure about what they have going forward. So, I don't know. Do we think they make the playoffs? I never thought they were going to make the playoffs. I was never, I hate to be a cynical asshole about it, but I was just never convinced that Embedd could play 65 games.

Yeah. It was really, really suspicious of it. So Tuesday night I watch Janice and LeBron. Janice is like, that guy's just built to play basketball. He's 82 games. If he gets hurt, it'll be a complete fluke where he lands on somebody's foot or, you know, like some crazy Paul George injury. Like there's going to be no conventional basketball injury.

That guy is a freaking specimen. And went toe to toe with the goat of athletes, LeBron. I'm not going to say he's to go to basketball. But then they had this moment at the end with the little loose ball and LeBron almost had it. And Janus gets it back. and LeBron finishes on the ground, and it was like, whoa, LeBron is down. So anyway, you know with the honest,

you're getting 82 games. And I think with Simmons, you're getting 82 games. I don't know what I'm getting with Embed. Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see if Simmons, even if Embed doesn't play the rest of the season, let's see what he can do with that type of team. I think it's a good test,

an early test and probably an unreasonable test at this point of his career. Well, people, the other thing we should mention is they do the first 16 games or so you can get away with stuff, and eventually team scout you and they figure out your habits and especially with the rookies. And it does seem like teams have figured out Simmons a little bit and now what's the next step?

Are they going to start posting them up more? How do they get in the ball? Does he have to add now because they've figured him out? The shot would help. I think like, yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think there was a report that like Brett Brown was like, oh, like we want Ben to take more jumpers now and they're going to try it out as if it was like some kind of experiment

which seems kind of weird in the middle of the season. But that's kind of what they need, I feel. Yeah. All right, getting to the next part of this initial matchup the New York Knicks. The question is, are the Knicks good? It's difficult. They're definitely more entertaining than I think all of us expected, right? All right, so 16 and 14 currently, eighth in the east. They're 13th on offense, which is surprising, considering Christops is in and out of the offense, and there really isn't much there besides Michael Beasley.

How many games has he missed? Like seven? It's a few, yeah, and Tim Hardaway Jr. was pretty much their only other option. And he's been out. Yeah, that's a scary one too. So I don't know when he's going to be coming back. Fifteenth on defense, even with Ennis Cantor playing significant minutes for them. They beat OKC with LKP this weekend. Good home crowd. Really good home crowd. That helps them.

Team seems to like each other. Good chemistry. Kyle Quinn, great chemistry guy. Cancer. Great chemistry guy. And when the Zinger's out there, they have, he's toe to toe against you name the player. He's like, all right, you got that guy?

We have the Zinger. So I don't know. I still, he's another guy where can he stay in the court. He seems to have dumber injuries. And Bid is like he's had surgeries and missed seasons. and has now back and multiple knee and all this stuff. Porzingis just seems like he has bad luck. Yeah.

Fluky injuries. Did you see the thing about his trainer, the story that came out today? His trainer is not only did his brother slash agent find this guy, but he's a former bodybuilder and an MMA fighter, a trainer to the Stars, who has trained Shaq, Bradley Cooper, Jeremy Piven, Rampage Jackson, Andro Agassie, and Justin Bieber. And he's really into rest.

So pretty much after every game, he won KB to do absolutely nothing. I mean, this would be a good. ringer story, but I think there is a certain height when you have to worry about guys and durability. And I don't know whether it's 7-2 or 7-3 or whatever, but Rick Smiths and Algoskis and Sean Bradley, people like that, like very rarely do you see the just slew of 82 game seasons from those guys because they're big and they're moving around a little more clumsy. I don't know. I mean, my brother has always brought up the fact that, oh, these guys are, these giants are playing AAU ball, you know, so early on in their lives and they have so much more

tread on their tires early on. So by the time they get into the NBA, you're dealing with high-level athletes, huge guys on defense. It adds up to a lot. It's the same thing that allows him to be good, which is he can literally extend over any player and shoot it over him,

which means he's like one of the better go-through scores because you can just give him the ball and he'll jump and he'll shoot right over the defender. That's like the very same thing that is causing all these fluke-cangers, I feel. He does have when your team's playing him, he does have that, how are we going to stop this guy side to him?

then there's only like eight guys in the league like that. I think Kyrie's like that too, but when he gets going, you're like, uh-oh, now what happens? You just kind of have to hope they miss. Yeah. So, I mean, listen, that's even having him and how he's played this year is the best thing that's happened in the next, probably in 15 years. Right. So just then being 500 on Christmas, if he's healthy, that's a huge win for them.

Yeah. I think the one question that we've talked about a lot is just, is he too good and are they too good with him to be really tanking? And so I wonder going into the deadline, like, should they? maybe just trying to sell off anything in order to bottom out. They don't have that one expiring that they could go get somebody and they don't really have contracts people would want to take anyway. Yeah, I feel like Porzingis making this leap makes the hard way signing look that much worse.

Yeah. Oh, worse? Yeah, actually. Well, but they were screwed anyway because for me it goes back to the NOAA signing. Because once you have NOAA, it's like you can't, there's no way to really fix it short term anyway. Right. So I think they're additive as well. We're screwed with the cap.

Might as well go get some dudes. The Noah revival. Listen, I'm not defending the Hardaway sign. But, you know, Hardaway and Cantor are big contracts, but those guys are also solid rotation guys that help them. So I don't know. I don't know what they should have done. The Noah Revival game, I guess it was, was low-key one of my favorite points in the season.

Where he played two minutes. Everyone, I guess Madison Square Garden was cheering for him. Just not ironically. They were very much in favor. Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess he just didn't get back on defense. He got pulled and, like, hasn't really been seen since.

Yeah. There was like a two-minute stretch in our NBA Slack, too, where all of the NBA guys were just like, oh, yeah. Those are my favorite moments, yeah. We should, our slack should be pay-per-viewed. It really should be. It's hilarious. That's taken on a life of its own.

Like, even when I wasn't working here a few months ago, when you guys used to bring it up, I was like. You were jealous of it? I want to know what's going on there. It's better than anyone would think. Well, like today, with Chris Hop's trainer, it was like, okay, who can come up with, like, the best joke to describe what he looks like. Yeah, well, he looks like across.

between Joe Rogan and literally every New York Peter writer I've ever seen in my life. It's also a great place to go anytime somebody's favorite poor gets hurt for the one person, I'm like, fuck me. It's like cockwork. It's usually Concepcion after, it seems like Porzengis is out for the year, but he's fine.

Yeah, I get the sense that Chris Ryan doesn't go on NBA slot as much as used to. The fault stuff, I think, really hurt his feelings. Okay, so the next one on the docket. Cavaliers versus Warriors is what I'm excited about. I've been watching a lot of them lately, so kind of been saving it for this matchup. 3 p.m. Eastern. First question for the Cavs.

Should the Cavs trade the Brooklyn pick? And now, obviously, there's the whole LeBron isn't going to come back next year, which you really trade off an asset that can build for the future. But let's say, Steph, his injury lingers. Does it open up a window that wasn't there before? The Cavs also looking pretty dominant. They've lost two games in the past 39 days. I don't know.

It seems like things are kind of aligning where maybe they would want to take a push. Look, they still have the 28th ranked defense in the league. Sure. So I feel like if they want to make that final push with this last season of LeBron, potentially, they do need to make moves. But I don't know if it's a move that, you know, I don't know if they're going for, you know, a franchise guy. I don't know if that's going to be the thing that puts them over the top. I think they just need to fortify their actual bench. I'm looking at the standings to see where Brooklyn's records.

So they're 11 and 18. they are in the bottom there's like a bottom 12 right now but really there's only two teams that we can definitively say are going to be in the bottom is Dallas and Atlanta Chicago's had this

bizarre rejuvenation which I think is the single strongest team in the east kind of fun to watch there's a little Chris Dunn going now marketing I mean the whole thing who's going to get punched in the face I don't give a minute

oh yeah there's a weird so it's fun to see who's going to handshake Meritich. But that Brooklyn pick, I don't know where it ends up. And like two weeks ago, I would have said guaranteed not in the bottom eight. But now you see some of these lower teams coming. The Lakers don't seem like they're going away, which is the Celtics fan who has the two through five pick.

They're just good at home. Yeah. It's a good home team. The crowd's into it and they like the team and they have an ingram's coming on. LA effect. So I could see that Brooklyn, it's conceivable. They fall into the bottom five. Yeah, I like what they do.

I mean, we've been saying this. Well coached, yeah, the whole thing. They have no incentive to be bad. And so some of these teams, I wonder as the season goes on, are they going to drop off? I don't know. All right, so who are the candidates for that, right? You have... Well, Orlando.

Orlando, 100%. Charlotte's going to have a moment soon where they all look at each other and they go, what do you want to do? Yeah, especially if Clifford doesn't come back? Yeah, should we tank this? The Dwight Bolivirus never fails, man. Everybody loves that, dude. I think Phoenix will make at some point start to make the

necessary moves to tank. Sacramento, same thing. Yeah. Clippers. I don't know what to make of the Bulls thing. I think Hoyberg's like, FU, everybody. We're winning games.

We're making the playoffs. Well, he kind of needs that narrative to turn around for him because it was kind of like, okay, should they get rid of him? And now it's like I keep seeing like, oh, like they should commend Fred because he's gotten the team back on track. And it's like, sure, yeah.

So I think for them it benefits them to keep winning. I mean, I don't know. Like the crowds into it too. Right, yeah. I don't know what's going on with Mirich. It's like the punch was like a reverse. slobotomy? I don't know what's going.

He's looked great. Yeah. And he's... Well, he took the last year and a half off. He did... There was a moment. I mean, I have old trade value columns where he's like 38th. You know?

And yeah, it's like, this guy's good. This guy's going to be an all-star. Yeah, then we realized he couldn't shoot. But now he kind of can. It wasn't that long... He can shoot. I think he just didn't care. Right.

It wasn't that long ago that he was the best player in Europe. Yeah? Wow. He was like the crown jewel for a while. I think they would be, absolutely insane to trade the Brooklyn pick. Right. I'm not doing it unless he agrees to stay.

Otherwise, I'm just dangling it as like, oh, you want to get better. I'm also not positive they need to trade the Brooklyn pick. Because when Isaiah comes back, I think that's going to solve some problems. If he's even 80% what he was last year, that takes a huge burden off LeBron. Why is Danny smiling?

But they're already like an elite offense. Yeah, I don't know if that's... But that's why I say this, though. LeBron's doing way too much. Yeah. It's not sustainable. He's playing like it's round three. Even last night,

he was playing like it was game seven in the finals. He never used to play the regular season like that. He would use the regular season to try out stuff, kind of assert his muscles in big games. Now he's playing every game like it's game seven. I don't, unless he's figured out some sort of training that just nobody has figured out in the history of mankind, I don't see how it's sustainable.

Which wouldn't be that surprising, but yeah. Or maybe he's just figured it out. Maybe he's figured out like Brady did, like the first. perfect blend of whatever. Yeah, he might be having his best season of his career. I think he's playing the best he's ever played. Which you wonder is how long that's it going to continue. Like we talk about his next destination.

I wonder if this might be the last of peak LeBron. And like, yeah, maybe we said this before. Five years ago. It's going to become the Spurs question. But at the same time, it's going to happen eventually because he's a human rather than like this culture and the Spurs. What was the year, second Grant Lane year, the 27 game streak? I was doing TV.

that year. I remember that, yeah. And he started out, and he was shooting 60% after like seven weeks. Right. And I went on TV, and I was like, I think he's actually trying to do this because you could watch from the shots he was taking. He was only taking high percentage shots. And I thought that was the greatest I'd ever seen him play.

Or he's like every game he's going eight for 12 or, you know. But now it's like the way he's playing now, it's, his team's not great. A lot of old people can't play defense. three points shot now, like a consistent one. He's shooting over 40% from three. That's what I'm saying. That's how you reinvent yourself, I guess, you know? And all of his other numbers are up to.

Yeah, even the free throw shooting, which people kind of got out of them last year, because for some reason was just figuring out his fanics. Defense has been better. Defense has been better. So I don't know. Do you think that team's good? I think it's good. I don't know if it matches up well against the top two

teams in the West. Do they have another player you would even consider thinking about? for an all-star All-Star invitation. I don't think. I mean, Kevin Love. For a while,

I thought Kevin Love was playing really well. He's scoring like 20 points and he's a conversation. I'll give you that. I think he's in the conversation. He just gets in because the East is so weak. You know who's really good for them? Kyrie Irving.

It's almost like they need him. It's almost like it might have been a mistake to trade him. Yeah. Yeah. I think it'll take a while for them. Like, I'm sure LeBron is going to welcome Isaiah. Because it's another person to load up some of the offensive responsibilities.

But at the same time, it's going to feel like it's going to be a while for them to get used to that. I would also say, Isaiah, not, I love the dude. He brought me a lot of joy. Not a hundred percent easy guy to play with. Right. Like, he needs the ball. You got to send him picks. You got to run a lot of handoffs for him.

You got to run stuff to make him look better. Yeah. And LeBron, it's always been LeBron's team every year for, it's like, this is my team and you'll fit into how I play. I think that's going to be, I don't know. I wouldn't say fascinating, but it'll be interesting to see how they mesh. Yeah, there isn't really an obvious trade candidate. I mean, I wrote down DeMarcus, Marcos, Salle, DeAndre. I wouldn't.

Would you trade DeMarcus if you were in New Orleans? I wouldn't. He's probably like the seventh best player in the league this year. I do think he's low-key worse than people realize. Oh, I think it's high-key. He leaves the league in balls, leaves the league and turnovers. It was like five or six turnovers a game? Yeah.

It's like, it's 5.2, I think. What did you guys think of my suggestion in Slack that miss shots plus turnover should be on its own? It should be its own. What was it? It was miss shots, points plus assist minus, minus, miss shots plus turnovers. I think should be a stat. You should make a ringer PR type of thing. Just, just to own it ourselves.

I love miss shots and turnovers. I think like every time you miss a shot, you lose that position unless you got the offensive rebound. Nobody has offensive rebounds anymore. And then a turnover, you give them the ball. So if Wake Westbrook misses that game the other night, he had 23 missed shots and six turnovers. 29 times the other team got the ball, basically, unless they got the offensive rebound. Versus like what LeBron's doing. I mean, I love the idea, but I feel like marketability might be a little low just because it takes the ball to explain it.

You can't really put it on the traditional box score. Yeah, it did take me two minutes right there. But I thought it was interesting when I did the pod with Steve Kerr, asked him what he looked for. And what did he say? said, like, I look at our turnovers, our assist, and other teams opposing field goal percentage. This is the coach of the best team in the league. Those are the only three things he cares about. And yet, we're like, oh, that's what else were else spoke triple double?

It's like, nobody cares. It doesn't matter. It kind of helps to have two MVPs. You don't have to look at anything else. Yeah, you're right. Just like, how are we taking care of the ball? These awesome guys on this debut. David West just coming off the bench.

I didn't really have a warrior's question, so the cop out. Where do we agree on the Brooklyn one? I would say no. Keep it. Keep it. Keep it. Just to be safe. I would try and throw a couple pennies to the Mavs to try and get Nirlins, maybe.

You and I both still like Nirlins. I'm in on Nirlins. I am too. I've seen him do it. That's the thing. It's like, Okafer, I saw him do it in college, but not really in the pros. But I've seen Noel be dominant defensively in games. He would hope.

I do like the idea, let's say cousins. I do like the idea that if you can resign him after the fact and you can get rid of some of your bad contracts in the process, Like, it kind of walks the line enough to where, yeah, maybe if LeBron walks, you still have something going forward. Like, it's not a lot, but at least you have something. Well, if I'm looking at the teams that could potentially do it, the teams that would, like, punt on a season, basically. And it's just you going on the line, it's Brooklyn doesn't have any one. I don't know who Charlotte's, the Charlotte target would be. I guess Kempa, but that's just.

Doesn't make sense. Kaminsky destroyed the Knicks on Monday. Yeah, he'll have moments. Orlando doesn't have a guy unless they went for Vucevich Phoenix no Sacramento no Well Gordon would be in Chicago no who Gordon for the Brooklyn pick But when the magic

I don't know if the magic would do that I don't see that one God I would love to watch him with LeBron though That'd be amazing I don't see that Jonathan Simmons seems like a Cavs guy but he's not he's not LeBron trying to recruit him Yeah Casol and Conley I don't see it Dallas doesn't Harrison Barnes like that would

No and then Atlanta's I'm kind of into the nerlands thing if they were able to do that I don't know how but I don't know when he's coming back from the thumb thing but yeah that'd be an interesting the thumb up his ass

what happened to what's the thumb thing he's taking the whole year off you're getting a totally fresh nerlands a lot of hot dogs in Dallas so you don't have a warrior's question it's basically who's your favorite warrior oh Danny I mean

like my actual answer is probably Pat McCaw but my cop out answer is Katie He's just looked incredible since Curry's been out. He's basically taken on the Curry roll and the Draymond roll together. He's averaging almost like three blocks a game. His assist rate's gone through the roof since he's taken over. He's averaging 30 points over the last like nine games.

Durant's December is outrageous. It's remarkable. This is what I wanted to see from going into the season. I thought he would like kind of... I think he wasn't ready for the season. I didn't think he looked at those first two weeks. See, it seemed like that whole team wasn't ready for the season. and I think the coach knew it.

I knew this is going to happen, but I'm still mad. I've been the most impressed by West out of all, like, obviously the ones. But West, I thought, was finished. And he's making plays in big moments for them. And seems like he's the leader of the team. Because the dirty secret with the Warriors is Draymond hasn't been the same this year. And I don't care. I'm not going to look at the stats.

I'm just saying what my eye test sees. I don't see the same fire that he had last year. You see a little bit, but not like, you think about like the 25 game, would they win 25? He was possessed during that. And now he kind of knows regular season. I don't need to be that way. But they also fed off that. And there's games where like that Laker game the other night when they just don't have the right energy.

And I'll be interested to see if you can turn it back on because I think as you get older, it's harder. I would say my answer for me for a favorite word is unleash Katie, like this specific Katie, not the one for. No Curry, Katie. Final MVP. Finals MVP, yeah, exactly. But I do say I just enjoy on a night-to-night basis watching Clay. I'm down with that.

Yeah, like, just because, like, you never hear from him. You never, like, unless it's, like, talking about scaffolding in the middle of New York, like, you never hear from him. And he's just, like, there and does this thing. And I don't know, I find, I like that. One of the best shooting seasons of his career. It's not the best. I think he's been really good this year.

Yeah. He's also, like, starting five of every time he shoots, I think he's going to make it. Yeah. Which Tatum. is weirdly like that for me too now in the Celtics. Every time he misses, I'm like, what the hell? I thought we had a deal.

I thought you made every shot. And like the thing with him was that he didn't have a shot, right? Yeah. He's the big issue, the weird dark Celtics. You know, every team has like the super internet, like conversations that nobody else even understand. A big Celtics conversation is why does Tatum only shoot nine times a game? Because every time they give him the ball,

it seems like he can score, but yet he gets his two shots a quarter and that's it. So there's a lot of like, nobody wants to question the president. But there's a little bit of, eh, you can probably throw him, get him to 12 shots a game, right? Tatum's shooting 51.5% from three. I know. You thought I was kidding. What the hell?

He's kind of amazing. He's like, he's basically like a 50, 50, 90 guy. Right? What's his field? Yeah, no, he's at 50, 51 and 84. Right. Which is that you could get that up pretty fast, but it's like, this is my point. He takes nine shots a game.

He's like a 50, 50, 80, 80. Give him some of Kyrie. You thought I was kidding. Why are you sick? Why is this bother you? I have like a strange psychic allegiance to the Philly fans. Because we have too many of them on the staff. We got to fix that.

I do wonder what Tatum's future is in the league. Like who is he? Is he going to be like a fine line score for them? 100%. Is he going to be their best player eventually? Yes. Wow. Well, Kyrie is only 25.

Sure. Yeah. I think that the thing with him is, I was there for Paul Pierce's first year, and Paul Pierce was, I think, two years older. And similar games, tall, long arm, stuff like that. He's just so much more advanced offensively than Paul Pierce was. Paul Pierce was a baby. He barely knew what he was doing.

Tatum has like seven moves already. You can post him up. He's got, yeah, I wrote about it last month. He's got that swoop from either side, that Dr. Jay swoop. He's got pull-ups. It's crazy. I don't understand how he's this advanced. Doesn't make sense.

He's kind of like the manifestation of how, much better players have gotten at a younger age and how much earlier they start to refine those moves. Because like okay like you said like Paul Pierce probably wasn't that refined when he got to the South Xen and then somebody like, he probably started super early on and he's like working on these moves because somebody told him you should

work on this. Shout out to Drew Hanlon. Exactly. So it's like okay now he's there he knows that to do them already as a rookie which is pretty insane. His footwork is really crazy. I had no idea he was going to be this kid. When they started when there was buzzed that this was the guy they wanted and I was like really? So I'm in college

he was good, but... Also, shout out to KOC. I mean, he was... O'Connor was the first guy who was just like, this guy's gonna be a superstar. I was like, no way. Still a rookie wall to hit, so...

What was it? You know, the thing with the Celtics, oh, we're gonna talk about them. I'll wait until we get to them. Actually, we're... Yeah, we could just transition to them now. They got screwed with the schedule because this London trip.

Like, this grind they're through, their whole goal right now is just to get through it without hurting, getting anybody, like, severely hurt. By the time it's done, they're gonna have played like five, more games than any other team. And they need to get through this stretch.

And if they can get through the stretch, once they get to London, it's like the finish line. It's almost like with our website where it's like, oh, the holiday week's coming. Once we get there, we get our stores up, but we'll be good. And they need to get to this London game. And then after that, it's going to be the rest of season's easy. It's a lot of home games. Well, then they just have to wait for Gordon. You got the Lee Jenkins.

Yeah. Oh, did he? The Lee Jenkins treatment today. Oh, I didn't see that. I didn't read it yet. generated either. But it should be interesting. The specific questions I have,

I guess we'll jump to the second one first. Is Kyrie Irving a top five point card? Yes. Okay. Yeah. It's more interesting because the other question is John Wall a top five point card. Kyrie Irving is so much better than John Wall.

I can't even entertain that conversation. What about the defense? His defense, I will say his defense, now that he's kind of calmed down a little bit, his defense, it's not his defense as much as the teams. There's a specific type of guy who kills this Celtics team that I hope they don't see in a playoff series.

Old Depot is a good example. That guard, the inside outside guard who can get to the rim and also pull up, they just can't without Bradley, like you took Bradley for granted forever. Not to have Bradley, it's really hard to guard those guys for this team. And that's one of

the, the other issue is like the big overpowering center. Orford, there's just certain guys he's not going to be able to guard. Right. So They probably do need A rim protector Just someone One more guy

Would make me comfortable Yeah Yeah There's if they saw Who knows with Detroit Detroit? Detroit's been so up and down But if they

They saw Detroit In a playoff series I'd be a little nervous Interesting And then like Dragich is the type of guy That just kills them Like these herky jerky

Guards that They don't really have the right guy To guard him Yeah I don't think they're gonna make it Would Isaiah Booker's another Fit that bill

Which one? If they were to match up Cleveland, Boston What I say fit the bill of the guard to give him the problems. Can we all agree that Isaiah that comes back

is not going to be the Isaiah we saw last year? Because that Isaiah was completely reckless and thrown his body around and bouncing off the basket support and I don't see how you play that way when you've had this hippie thing.

Yeah, I have no idea what to expect from him. Apparently he's going to go to the G League this week to start off. Yeah, interesting. I hope it. The best story would be if he could come back

reasonably close to where he was and then we have Celtics Cavs and he's in there and the crowd has such affection for him. That's going to be really complicated. All he needs to do is be better than Jose Calderon. Not a high bar. That's it.

And he'll help their defense? Oh, no, he won't help. Well, he will help them by proxy, like you were saying. He takes the offensive load. LeBronkin kind of, you know, quarterback a little bit more. Yeah, for sure. Cav still favored in the east?

Yeah, I think so. I always default to the best player. Yeah. I think this is, the Celtics is currently equipped to have a much better chance to compete in any playoff series, just because of their length than Kyrie. And Kyrie can go toe-to-to-to with LeBron in a game, 5, 6, 7, doesn't matter. Yeah. Kyrie's incredible, by the way. I don't know if I mentioned that yet.

Incredible. It's pretty okay. He's absolutely incredible. Well, I do think it's interesting, the other side of that on the Christmas Day matchup with John Wall, because the team kind of fell apart when he wasn't there. On the other hand, I don't really know what they are right now, the Wizards. they're kind of just middling somewhere in the east. I don't know if they have enough of a top gear to really even compete with the Celtics like they did last year in the playoffs. It just doesn't seem like there's much there.

Well, like we're talking about them more than we are about the Raptors, I feel, and I feel like the Raptors is a better overall team. Like the Wizards need kind of the third guy, and otherwise, like, they don't, I don't think they compare to the other teams in the East right now. Danny Chow looked at my run down before this and said, where am I going to talk about the Rats. There you go. I'm just open the door for you, Danny. It's okay. We can stick on topic. I kind of see the Wizards as like the Blazers East. Similar, you know, backcourt, you know, star power. Rest of the team's a little bit iffy, but...

Be careful for Portland fans. They somehow figured out a way to take that personally. I want Wizards! What the hell? What do you mean? We have two of the best people. Where's the league? I think you're right, though. I think they're on paper they look better than when you actually watch them. Sure.

I mean, is there anything to this rivalry between them and the Celtics from stemming from last year? No. Well, you got the Morris brothers now. Yeah. It's true. That'll be fun. I don't know whether that's good or bad for the rivalry. To me, the Wizards seem like they should be Bradley Bills team, and they were going to eventually have to realize that.

He's been top five. kind of leap guys for me this year that I've just been caught him on certain nights like wow he's really figuring this out now he's great he did seem to not know what to do when wall was out like originally like the first game right after it it was almost if they pretty much just ran dribble handoffs

for him the entire time because they had nobody to create and like kick out to him and I don't know if he has that part of his game kind of refined yet but clearly he's taking a step forward he's very much like earlyish Ray Allen I see yeah like the destiny for him would be 05 Seattle Ray Allen when they built that whole fun playoff team around

all this good stuff Ray Allen could do and I actually think he's better than Ray Allen. Yeah. I mean, I think an interesting wrinkle on this potential rivalry is just the fact that Kyrie and Wall are actually going to be playing against each other now. And I feel like maybe this is just me projecting, but I see a lot of rage in John Wall

and I think a lot of it has to do with how much success Kyrie gets and how much attention he gets, especially with his sneakers. You know, his sneakers have obviously connected with, you know, the basketball-loving culture a lot more than Wall's, like, Wall... Simmons kids have a deal? Simmons kids have the carers.

Yeah. They weren't asking for the John Wiles. I don't think they exist right now. Yeah, they haven't existed for like three years. I don't think he has a shoe contract. No. Well, that's kind of like Wall's whole thing. Like, he's just always been like the forgotten or the underrated guy.

And, you know, we're asking, like, oh, is he a top-five point getting in? I don't think anybody's... None of us said he is. Yes. There you guys. But that's what I'm saying. That's kind of what drives him, I feel like,

because it's just like he's underlooked and everything. I don't know. He's a level below Kyrie, I think. I just think Kyrie, there's a group of eight or nine guys, and then there's the next group, and John Wall's not in that first group. He's just not. I wonder if he's a step-a-low-lid-lid-lid.

I feel the same about both. Yeah. Wizards Blazers. I think John Wall would be more fun to play with. Yes. I would not have fun playing with Damien Lillard. All right, we're going to take a quick break and get back to the rest of the Christmas Day.

matchups. This episode of group chat is brought to you by State Farm, with over 19,000 state farm agents nationwide. You get an agent that gets you as well as Chris Paul and James Harden get each other, which is the focus of the ringer's first NBA relationship goals video. Chris Ryan, Jason Gallagher kind of break down just the relationship between the two Rockets All-Stars this year and how they've had so much success on the court. One ball, but not much a problem for the Houston Rockets.

So be sure to check that video out on the ringer.com, The ringer's YouTube channel, YouTube.com slash The ringer's Facebook or Twitter. And remember, like teammates on the court or relationship with a State Farm agent, sets you up for success off the court. Go to statefarm.com to get an agent that gets you. All right, we talked about the first three games on the Christmas Day slate. Let's get to the second half. First one up, Rockets versus Thunder.

The question I have, and this is the one I've been thinking about for a while. time slot for this one. This is an 8 o'clock or Eastern, TNT? We're getting progressively later. That's a good one. It's probably the best game on the slate, I think, just because I just love watching the Rockets. Every game is just super interesting.

And it's so much fun to hate watch the Thunder. Go ahead, I didn't interrupt it to you. Exactly, no, it's cool. One thing I've been thinking about is, could this Rockets team beat the Warriors team before Katie joined? So the team that broke the record, but they don't have...

3-1. Yeah. Don't have KD in there to kind of really just change everything. I would say yes. Okay. I think I would agree. Like they could. Not that they would, but that they could.

Rockets have number one offense, number seven defense, Hardin's first in PER, first in scoring. Chris Paul also hasn't lost the game since he's played. 14 and no? 14 to no. This is as of Tuesday. Man, this is rough. I might just say no just because everyone else has said yes.

I love the Rockets. Dan Tony is my guy. But I won. That might be a reason why we should all be saying no. But it's just, I feel like the Rockets are not a team that can like change their identity mid-series. Okay. As well as the Warriors might be able to. I think the Rockets play a very specific way and they will continue shooting those threes.

and if it doesn't fall, then they're just going to... My question to that is, like, so you don't think, like, if they needed to, like, a go-to-scoring crunch time, they would just turn a ball over to Chris Paul now and he would just take over from, like, the mid-range or wherever he needs to go. That's works so well in the playoffs. He cannot do that against the Warriors in the West Conference House.

Yeah, that's true. Well, yeah, I guess if we're comparing me to the Warriors... I forgot that James Hardin's a choke artist in the playoffs and so is Chris Paul. I changed my answer. He does have knee pain that sounds pretty ominous. these days. James Harden does. Oh, really? He's kind of complaining about it. I'm kidding about the

choke artist thing, but I just, that Warriors team was pretty tough, that 15 team. They won a lot of battles that season. What I think is interesting is that I wonder if the Rockets can go smaller than the Warriors can't. Like, you're still putting Draymond out there. I think Draymond is kind of an Achilles-Eel on offense for the Warriors.

I mean, obviously, they're going to have enough there, but he's kind of the one that made that all work, but the Rockets can go pretty much PJ Tucker at center and just put five shooters on the floor. That's going to be a fight. That's amazing. So fun, yeah. So I don't know. I have noticed this year with the Warriors,

it does seem like teams are now just treating Draymond like he's Andre Roberson. They're just like, hey, there's your open 24-footer, just make it. Make it five times and we'll worry about you. And I think it is in his head like 10%, whereas like two years

ago he was just shooting it every time. Right. Now you can kind of see him thinking about it for a split second. Yeah, his shooting number is fell off a cliff last year. Yeah, and they have the end and the kids continued this year. And now it's like you're going to pick your poison. That's the poison you pick. Go ahead.

Make a 24-footer, German. Right. His shot looks flat. He looks a little slow and a little sluggish. I don't know what he's doing off the core. But I don't know. I'm a little worried. Yeah, it's been nicknack injuries.

I mean, he's out right now for shoulder. So I don't know. I'd be interested to watch Capella against the Warriors. I think he's somebody who's been really good early on this season. and he's kind of like, I just like would want to see that matchup just to see how they would kind of counteract that. I mean, that was always kind of the game plan, right? Right.

You needed a guy who could get those offensive rebounds to, you know, keep from the Warriors, you know, running off the break or whatever. I know we have to do this because it's a long season and we have to come up with narratives in the moment, all that stuff. But it is, we're not going to know with the Rockets until March. Yeah. I think that Nix in 2013 are a really good example of

they had that crazy too much stretch and everyone's making, they're shooting 35-3s a game, and Carmelo looked amazing, and we really started to talk ourselves into them. And then all of a sudden you get into playoff series, and Roy Hibbert's banging dudes and banging Tyson Chinler around,

and Carmela goes cold for one game, I'll sudden they're out of the playoffs. And with Houston, I think Powell is right, that that one style works, or you said, actually, your point. The one style works, but as Danny said, like, when that slows down,

when something goes different, what's playing B? I mean, Chris Paul is an interesting case because he can play that kind of slowed down mid-range game, but at the same time, he's very small. And Jonathan Charks makes his point all the time. It's that the margin for error for guys like that and the playoffs is so much smaller because the quality of competition just goes up way higher.

But wouldn't you want the ball with Hardin though? I'm the Rockets. I'm going down with James Hardin. Chris Paul's there, but he's running my second unit, and he's out there in crunch time, but... I guess the argument would be like they already went down with James Harden last year, and he didn't show up. I still feel like...

I really think he was concussed and they'll never tell us. That was too weird of a collapse. I've never seen anything like that. He went from there going to win the game to his entire postseason was over, and he was like, what, three for 23 or whatever? That was too weird. Yeah, does speak to the changes that they made

this all season though, where I wouldn't be too worried, at least in the regular season, if James Hardin does go down with his knee pain. I mean, Paul has been amazing. And I think it's really one of the most shocking things of this season where he's been comfortable being deferential. He's basically the leader of a second unit. And yeah, it's a really good second unit, but it doesn't seem to bother him. I think it's like the type of thing. What you don't see in Mello is Chris Paul's just kind of killer instinct. And I think it's leading Chris Paul to be fine with the role he's playing as a secondary guy. You don't think Mello likes OKC? It doesn't seem like he's really going to the steakhouse and really enjoying it. What a tough spot for him.

I almost want, Carmelo's career is almost like a video game reset. He's like, let's do this again. Just didn't turn out. I was playing a season and so, eh, let's just start over. Right. I would just want to start over with him with Detroit taking him in 2003 over Darko. And just start the whole thing over. I think it's a completely different career.

He learns from those guys. He learns how to be a pro. He eventually comes in and starts taking over their offense in, like, about 2005, and he's a freaking top 40 player. Yeah. We're at the point where he's starting to look like Iverson, like, before he went to the Grizzlies. Like, he's that level of he won't just change who he is. Yeah, he's been really bad.

He scored four points, I think, the other night. Lowest ever? I think so, and a brainist had 11. It was like my fever dream. Oh, gosh. They've been a fun hate watch team this year. Yeah. Listen, I hate ISO ball.

I hate stat counting. I hate players that ask the scores table how many assists they have just like from a hate watch basketball standpoint. They bring almost everything to the table for me. It turns of my hate watch. I really enjoy hate watching them. Their offense is so bad. I feel bad for Paul George.

And yet Paul George has kind of made his own mess. Yeah. Ola Depot's doing what Paul George could have been in Indiana. He's doing a better version of it. And Paul George made it seem like that wasn't a good place for him and it wasn't good enough for him, and now he's in a worse place? Like, there's just a lot to love.

That's actually my question for the Thunder. Is Paul George a number one option on a contender? That's always been the rub. He's like kind of 1A. He's kind of settled into the Chris Bosch role that Mello should. Like, he's a really good defender. I think he's leading the league in steals. Not the role he should have.

I know. He's pretty much being used as a spacer a lot of the time. His three-point percentage, I think, is above his regular field goal percentage. They should run the whole offense through him and play Westbrook off the ball. I just want to see it for a week. Whatever they're doing now is great if you want to win somebody

the MVP and win 45 games and losing round one. But if you want to actually potentially win a playoff series, they have to run it through George. Well, like, that's the thing, right? They're kind of like halfway in between letting Russ be completely russ and then also trying to work in the other guy. So it's like not working at all. It's no man's land.

Yeah, exactly. It's no man's. That game the other day when he was like 16 for 28 and the other guys had like 15 points combined. That's unfortunately probably. who they are. I would be trying to trade Paul George if I were them. They're not winning the title with this team and they got to get

something for him. He's not staying. They have to really think about it. Cabs? I don't know if Sam Presti can really eject. He's really kind of made his bed with this team. I mean, you'll be left with Russ regardless, but I don't know. If you're just going to be resigned to that future anyway, why not just go for it this season is kind of how I think.

Go for what? They're not doing anything with that team. At least hope that like some sort of coaching change maybe or some sort of like different like chemistry just like kind of matriculates to the there, I don't know. That's the thing. For Paul George to be a number one option

on a contender, it would have to be like the perfect situation. It would have to be Paul George on the title winning Pistons team. It would have to be Paul George on that 60 win Hawks team. Right, right. Or Paul George on that 2014.

I don't think he's good enough. I don't think he's good enough offensively the stats back it up. How much do we think Donovan is at fault here? This is the question we're just. discussing today. But when you build a culture where everything is built around one guy, getting triple double, winning the MVP, nobody else boxes out on a rebound so he can come in

and get it. And that's the culture you've built. You can't just change that in a year and be like, all right, now you have to involve some other guys. Right. That's the thing. They created, I hate to use the word monster, so I won't. But they created what they created.

They created this situation they are in now, which is like this guy plays a certain way and he's used to a certain way. And they can't deviate from it. You were basically saying MVP play differently. What you did literally earn the best honor we have in this game, but now you have to play completely different. Or, you know, this might be who he is. Right.

Maybe he should just be on teams when he does what he did last year, and just the supporting cast is a better version of what he had last year, and that's your best chance. But I don't know. Westbrook, three Abrinas and Stephen Adams. Let me tell you. I know this can't happen because they just traded, they just signed Coventon,

but you're asking, like, what's the best position for Paul George to actually succeed? To me, it's like in that Coventon role, but a little more. So, like, it's Simmons' team, but when Simmons has those moments, like you're kind of sharing Alpha Dog with him

and then you're doing all the stuff Coventon's doing, that would, to me, would be his best situation. Well, that's the thing. Like, if you replaced Paul George, if you replaced Tashon Prince with Paul George on that team, or if you replaced, you know, Andre Iguodalo on that Nuggets team

that surprised everyone, than lost to the Warriors. Or, you know, on the Hawks team, if he replaced, you know, Kent Baysmore. Like, I think that's, like, the ideal role for him, because he can do all of those things, but at an extremely high level. So we're saying Paul George has become rich man Xavier Bradley now. I basically want him to fulfill a utopian team. That does not have, like, a clear hierarchy.

And, like, the complete opposite of that is a fun there. Do you know who has Max Caspace this summer? Or around that? Philadelphia's 76ers. I'm just going to put that out there. Do you know that Jalen Brown's stats in year one and year two are better than Paul George's stats

and Jimmy Butler stats in year one and year two by like a significant margin? Interesting. Yeah. Just throwing that out there. That's a good one. Just saying if you're saying could Jalen Brown be Paul George, well, through two years, he's Paul George.

Do you think the Celtics are going to be better than the Warriors in two years? I don't know. I'm not rational. I mean, What should we say? I have the hottest take of all time when do you want it. Right now, immediately. I wouldn't trade for Anthony Davis.

Okay. Not interested. I'll give you my 40 cents on the dollar offer, but you're not getting Tatum or Brown, and you can have my draft picks. Just because of the injuries? Yeah. You know what?

I like my team. I like the team I have Hayward's coming back. I don't want to trade for Anthony Davis. Can I just root for this team? This is my fate. All my Celtic fans. friends, we were talking about this. This is easily my favorite Celtics team

since probably the last bird team with Reggie Lewis and Dee Brown and Brian Shaw and all those guys. I love that team. But we might even be drifting into the 80s. All of us love this team. We don't want to trade. We want to root for these guys. It's like they're a cut above, a cut below

the hated super teams. So if they were to add Anthony Davis, it would become a little less likable. Yeah, then we're like buying. It's like the same shit everybody hates when everybody does it. I like the team we have. Let's go. Bray, we're back, fix his ankle. Let's do it, man. I don't want Anthony Davis. I know it's heresy to say that.

I mean, Anthony Davis is top five player. I think he would fit perfectly what they do too. I'm well aware. Can I just be happy with my team? I've already one titles. I love having Jaylen Brown. I love Jason Tatum. I've already one title. We have more picks coming. Let's go. I've Kyrie. We have a superstar already. Why don't go with Anthony Davis? Boston wins too much. This is the luxury. No. But stay in the court, Anthony Davis. I'm going to trade everything.

I'm going to mortgage everything for somebody who's had, what, 22 different minor injuries at this point? But also, I mean, imagine him on a team that has a good training staff. I don't want to go there. I'm incredibly. I'm incredibly loyal to this group of dudes, and I hope they don't make a weird trade. That's all I'm going to say. I love watching this team.

My whole goal is I just want to be excited to watch the Celtics every day. I love this team. I don't need Anthony Davis. It's like if I'm having a great dinner and Danny comes in and be like, here, try this beef stew I made. And I'm already like downing a filet mignon. I'm like, you know, I'm good. I don't want the beef stew.

So the beef stew is Anthony Davis in this case? Well, he's like a great, he's like the son and undone. He's like that level of beef stew. But it's still too much. It's too rich. I'm good. But what if it actually happened? If they traded.

Well, first of all, if they. What's a reasonable trade? If they ever trade Tatum, I'll be devastated. I fucking love Tatum. Jalen Brown, you could talk me more into it. But I think he's going to be great. Yeah, if it was Jaylen Brown and all the picks they have and whatever else, I don't know. I guess it would make sense on paper.

We're still like two years away from me. Did you see them celebrate the Indiana game? It was like watching a Division II college team. They're like such not an NBA team. They love each other. They pull for each other. That's what I want. of it. Yeah, them and the Sixers. It's like I find myself envious of some fan bases out east

just because it seems like it's a lot of fun going on. The Lakers to a certain extent, I don't know. Oh, it does lead to the next question. Timberwolves and Lakers are the last game. 1030 at night. Who is staying up to watch his game on the East Coast? All four of us? Yeah, probably. Danny's ready. Danny will be going for seconds. I don't know what the Christmas dinner is that night at the Chow House, but I'm sure there will be leftovers. It's one of the few times I'm willing to watch the wolves.

wolves are a tough hang They don't quite have the hate watchability of the thunder Tough hang And Butler's Clearly like has rested control of the team from Townsdown Has become the guy And Towns is handling it weird I don't know what the hell Wiggins does

I don't know what he is and what he's doing Yeah He's in a horrible shooting slump That's what's going on He's basically First of all It's always funny when teams overpay two guards But you can

it's so easy to find a two guard who's just going to jack up shots and intermittently try on defense. You definitely don't need to pay $30 million a year for that, which is what they just did. And I don't know. I saw them in person two weeks ago and I was concerned about their chemistry,

ploddy language, the way they, the plays they ran, post-ups for Taj Gibson. It's like, what are you guys doing? Tibbs loves Taj Gibson. He loves him. They use towns completely incorrectly. It's not really a huge. hate watch. It's more of a cringe watch. It's a

cringe watch. That's what I do. It's a good way to put it. Well, this is the question I had is who will have the better career, Carl Anthony Towns or Anthony Davis? I just think Davis is better. I think Towns needs to do something before we can even have this question. Towns gets his stats, but when you're watching it live, it's never amazing. Davis is amazing.

Yes. Now, I just said I wouldn't trade for him, but he's still amazing. I will fully admit. He's in the top eight. And if it's a cell to get him, I'll talk myself into it. But, of it. Of course you were. Yeah. But he's just better than Towns.

Yes. Towns is those games. He had a game, granted, it was against the Kings. If I remember correctly, like he just had like 27, five blocks, five assists. He was like an all-round player. I was like, okay, like that's who you're supposed to be. And you just don't see it consistently enough to be to even probably like entertain this question.

Yeah, do that every night and get off Instagram and just like get back on defense. Well, they also have the Jamal Crawford issue. Their bench is terrible. Yeah. Jamal Crawford, who has won at least two more six-man-in-of-year awards than he should have won, and the media loves him, and he's an awesome guy.

If he was here right now, we would all fall in love with them, and he'd be an amazing guest. Great hang. Great hang. Unlike the Timberwolves. But if you're playing him at Crunch Time, there's something really dramatically wrong with your team. And that's what happened with the Clippers' last few years,

and that's his Timberwolves thing. I mean, yeah, exactly. Charks wrote a piece on this, basically comparing the two teams that the wolves are the new clippers. They're the new clippers. It's true. And it's like the same kind of dissatisfied look.

I was a big Tibbs defender, but the way he's beaten people on the ground again, it's really hard to defend. It's just, it's a long season. You guys don't need to play 42 to 45 minutes a game in fucking December. It's absolutely idiotic. The game has passed them by, and he hasn't caught up. And also, like, it's good to use your bench.

I think the biggest lesson we've learned from Popovich this decade is that it's okay if your best player is not playing for a two. months. Like, you figure it out. Listen, the Hayward thing is awful and I'm still kind of recovering from it, but it did allow Brown and Tatum to play. And it allowed Terry Rozier to get more minutes. And you kind of have to just spin it into a positive and guys have to step up. And it's just crazy to me when teams don't use the regular season for that. You should always play 10 guys in the nine or 10 in the regular season. We were talking about their bench and how bad is. I think like the bench itself

allows tips to be the way he is too, because there's nobody who he can trying to turn to? Or do you think, or do you think? I guess that's my question. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It's both his problem from a coaching perspective and a GM perspective. But wait a second, though. Is Shabazz bad now? Yes. Is he bad because Tibbs doesn't believe in him or is he actually

bad? Because he was good two years ago as a bench guy and now he's not. Well, he's Zach Randolph in wing form. Like, he's only good in the post. Okay, then make it word. This is my issue with OKC last year with Canter. It's like, can't play Canter. It's like, why? Canter can't

post up and he gets rebounds. Like, I'm watching all the other shitty guys in your team. You can't figure out how to use canter in a playoff series? It's weird because they don't quite have enough shooting to allow it to happen so that he's like constantly in the post when, you know, they need, I don't know, like Taj Gibson out. Yeah, but if you're playing towns and Butler and Wiggins together with Teague, you could at least let me see Shabazz for like a week with those four.

Just a check-out. There's no shooting for him. Yeah. Belly's been out. So that's her. But yeah, they don't play Cole Aldrich. I really like Cole. Cole Aldrich is at moments.

He's another one. The deep cut. No, on the Clippers, he was good. Yeah, okay. This is like the cancer conversation. It's like, we know these guys have succeeded. And if they're not succeeding, and I'm not positive, it's their fault.

Right. You know? Yeah, they paid Gorge and Jing. Baines is good on the Southwix this year for what he is. Last year he wasn't good. It's like he wasn't being used correctly. Now they use him correctly. So is Tibbs in any kind of throw?

I guess, like, what would have to happen for that? We'll stay away from that one. We've gone too deep on that one. places. Last team-related question. Who will have a better career, Kyle Kuzmur, Alonzo Wall? That's a good one. I'll say this.

I'm very much a Lonzo apologist. I see all the issues. I think the shooting is a legitimate concern. He did have one nice jumper the other day, and everyone freaked out about it. And over time. He just plays the right way. Yeah, he made a 14-footer, and the Laker-Natsers reacted like he just cured pro-lio.

Right. The form Look at that That's what he's gotta do And say that's the first time that's happened this whole season Right 25 games in It's like a comment

But no I just Look at the way he moves the ball He gets everyone else involved I think he could be scrappy on defense It's not there now But I think he could get there I don't know I think he still has enough potential

To be like your third best player I don't think he'll ever be a superstar But I think he'd be like Your third guy Danny's confused I'm so conflicted. I mean, like, I obviously have a very soft, very big soft spot for Lanzo, wrote my first piece for the ringer about his family. And I think recently he's shown

a bit of assertiveness, a bit of aggressiveness, especially pushing the ball that has really kind of brought me over. I think that the shooting concerns really did worry me for a while. They still do, obviously, but I'm willing to stay patient. I believe in youth. I've Danny made the crucial point. He's fixed some things that were really concerning. He's so much more aggressive. I thought that Kobe Knight game was the best I'd ever seen him. He looked great in the fourth quarter.

Yeah, he was... No, in the overtime. He's got an attack. It almost seemed like it took him 20 games to catch up to the speed of the NBA, which makes sense because he's 20. And we forget, like, these dudes are young. Go look at C.J. McCollum's rookie stats. Go look at Kobe's first two years.

Like, it takes a while. I'm more encouraged than I was. I still can't envision a scenario where as a shooter he's any better than Jason Kidd at peak Jason Kade where he's, I can't imagine him ever scoring more than 16 points a game. But I think he could be a better version of Ricky Rubio. Would we take that? Yeah. I mean, he's crafty. Like he gets rebounds.

He kind of knows the angles. He kind of jumps in there. Fun to play with? He's not a great athlete. Like, if he's going to do everything. He gets blocked at the rim. He gets blocked a lot. And Kevin O'Connor has that stat.

where when he goes right, like he's shooting like 20% from layoffs this is a few weeks ago. It's weird because like he can play off the ball and that's kind of where I see his athleticism. He's actually really explosive off two feet. It's just he kind of has Derek Williams syndrome where if he's jumping off one foot,

it looks like he's not getting off the floor at all. So that's why like when he was doing that running layup to try and win the game or tie the game, tie the game, David West, who is like 50 years old, blocked it easily. This was the Ruby. issue. Rubio cannot finish at the rim

and it prevented him from ever becoming an Oscar. Well, to fold Kuzma back into this competition because you asked okay who would have the better career. It was so interesting to me because I went to Kobe's honorary night on Monday and it was packed with a bunch of these crazy Kobe

fans and then you go up to them asking so how do you feel about this team and you know how do you remember Kobe and compared to this team and there was more than a few of them who said I actually see some of Kobe more in Kuzma than in Lanzo. mentality, which is just insane thing. That's why Kobe left.

But that's what I'm saying. It was just so funny to see how they're still tied kind of to that Kobe figure. Because it's like Stockholm syndrome. And like they see some of it in Kuzma, which is hilarious to me. But also like, okay, they seem to be kind of already resigned to the fact that like Lanzo is not going to be who they kind of expected them to be, which is, I don't know. I wouldn't give up on Lanzo yet. But yeah, I think for what we were hoping, it does. we just haven't seen the signs yet.

And at some point, those first year, second year, you have to have some moments, you know? Tatum has had moments already where you're like in big games on the road. He's made plays. You're like, holy shit, Tatum, Jesus. And Lonzo just hasn't had enough of them. And compared to, like, I've said this before, but if you just switch bodies with him and Donovan Mitchell this year,

and Donovan Mitchell was what Lakers fans thought they were getting with Lanzo, I know they're different players, but if he was just doing that in Alonzo Ball jersey, we wouldn't be able to go outside. The Laker flags would be, like, we'd be getting our eyes poked out with them. They'd be going bonkers. Donovan Mitchell was so much better than Lanzo.

And yeah, he's a little bit older, but I do think there's a lot of we want it to happen, so we're looking at all that in the fourth quarter, he was so aggressive. And it's like, think of how we sound. We sound like soccer moms. Well, the one thing I was wondering at halftime when they did the whole Colby ceremony

was you look at everybody, out there and you wonder, do the Lakers know what they're doing? Because you look at all the principals in the Lakers' organization now, and it's like, oh, it's magic. And Luke Walton, former Laker. Oh, Jeannie Buss, like, the daughter of a famous Laker owner. Rob Blanca.

You have Kobe's aging. Kobe, they still, like, honor as if he's, like, their best player on the team still. The draft pick that they got was... He's played for two years. Yeah. The draft pick that they got was just the biggest celebrity in the draft, and, like, maybe they should have went with Tatum.

And maybe Donovan Mitchell would have been a better pick. And I'm starting to wonder, like, have they really shown many signs that they're any better than the past few years where, like, everyone just wondered, like, what is going on? Well, I wonder if the move was to also maybe trade down and go from two to whatever. Like, we don't know. Nobody knew Donovan Mitchell was going to do this. No. He was definitely a fast riser. But if you just do that draft over and you trade backwards and you dump a contract in the trade, you go from, like, two to.

the 12. What's funny is that Denver pick, which was the Mitchell pick, was basically available. And I think from a Celtic standpoint, because from what I heard, they really like Mitchell. And Paul George was happening that night. And all their focus was on Paul George. They could have easily trumped the Utah trade. The Utah trade was basically 24 and what for third. Trey Lyos? Yeah. For 13? Not a lot. And what, like the 20-something, like whoever, whatever pick was used to get Tyler Leiden. Right. Celtics had more than enough picks to trump that, but they thought they were getting Paul George and they needed all this other stuff.

Right. But kind of crazy that Denver traded that pick. You know who they could use? Donovan Mitchell. Wow. Their biggest misstep in the last three years. If the Celtics had gotten Donovan Mitchell, we would have just quit. We would have stopped the NBA and had to start over because this has been too much. Well, Haley would have been wearing Celtics stuff every day to wear.

But think about it, though. They take Moodye. They take Murray. They take Murray. And they could have had Mitchell and didn't take him. So they ended up with two guys, we're on the fence with Murray, right? I know it's early, but there's been flashes that's it. He's heating up now, but, I mean, I'm...

Moodye is going to have a good career in China. And Mitchell is going to be like a seven-time all-star. Mitchell is fucking good Seven, wow, okay Mitchell is good He's good He's getting a lot of options All right, maybe three time all-star

His usage rate is Through the roof So I want to see what it looks like On a more balanced roster Yeah, but I test He 100% passes Yeah, absolutely He can get to the room and shoot threes

It's like where else do I need my point card to do He can beat anybody off the dribble And he can shoot threes I'm in Yeah And he can finish Ricky Rubio go-to score Shocking that didn't work out

Yeah. Well, they need to do something about that. And that's a team in general. They're 14 and 17, I think. They need to trade one of Goberra favors. It's just not working with them at the four and five. Yeah, but that's easy, though. Favor's is an expiring,

and Rubio is done next year. And they could basically just team them up together and just dump the contracts. Yeah. Hood is always heard of take it. I don't know. They've had a lot of injuries this year. They have so many guys, but none of them.

It's like the coin flip. Like kind of thing. Favors is a Celtic guy. That's on the radar. for them, I think. That would be good. That makes sense. Yeah.

There's a flyer for one year. That's, if there's a buyout, there's some buyout guys, potentially the thing with the Celtics is they have the 8.5 from the Hayward, so anybody who becomes a buyout guy after the trade deadline, they would just be able to trump any, you know, be like, hey, oh, Derek favors, you got bought out. Here's $8 million to play with us for one year.

Yeah. But that's the kind of guy they need. Bigger, more physical pseudo-center, who probably can't stay in the court, but it wouldn't matter if he was playing 10 minutes a game. Yeah, rookie of year, Mitchell I still think Simmons is the leader there I think Mitchell is

I mean, put it this way Simmons won first month Mitchell 100% won second month and now heading in a month 3 Mitchell's still winning that month I think if the Sixers make the playoffs I think that's a big case for Penn playoffs. Okay

I think they're the 80th seed Yeah, I was gonna say I think this squeeze in That's How many games am I getting from Mbid? 65. Depending whether or not you want to live, I think, is what we decided. So you're saying, we're saying Boston, Cleveland, Toronto, Detroit, Milwaukee, Washington, Indiana, all in? Those seven?

I'm going to... I have all seven of those in. I think Indiana is a playoff team. Yeah. All right, so that eight spot is the Knicks. I don't think the Knicks are going to end up there. Miami? Or Philly?

I think Philly, yeah. I would bet on Miami. Okay. Yeah. All right, we need to wrap this up quickly. we already talked about who wins the East, who wins the West. Warriors still?

Is that even interesting of a question? It's too early. Okay, too early. The better question is how many teams can win the title? I asked KOC that on my pot a week ago and I've already changed my mind.

He said six. Six? Because he had Toronto in there. I think it's three. I'm sorry, it was how many teams could make the finals? Six. He had six.

Yeah, sounds about right, yeah. It was three in each conference with Toronto is the third. team in the east. I would bump Toronto and maybe the Spurs. I'm still not sold in the Spurs. I want to see them

figured out with Leonard. I think two in the West. Yeah. I agree. I think two in each. And I would say two in the East. I don't.

I'm not going to talk myself into Toronto. We've been out on this road before with them. Danny? The Raptors are good. All right. Well, so if Oji, if he can come like be a little late bloomer, second half of the year

becomes that team becomes more interesting I like OTO because he's somebody like in crunch time if he's out there I'm like ah fuck that guy's okay Canadian I'm a little nervous

oh well no he's never he's never gonna have that kind of scoring output but he's good what he can do on the court is just what number did he go that was in the outrage

23 yeah it was in the 20 range I thought he was what did these teams do all year right nobody knows How does he go 23rd? How does Kuzma go 27th?

These guys all have scouting departments. Main thing with OG was that literally no one knew what was going on with this. Yeah. Okay. And he came back like way quicker than anyone thought. It's fine. Denver has Tyler Lighten. So we'll be fine.

Wow. Oh, man. All right, I think we need to wrap it up here. Thank you for joining the group chat edition of the NBA show. For Bill, for Paulo, for Danny, for the homie, Chris Ryan and Haley O'Shaughnessy. Thanks for joining us. Merry Christmas. Basketball is very good