The Ringer NBA Show - 'Group Chat' — The Joel Embiid Experience (Ep. 163)

Episode Date: November 16, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Justin Verrier are joined by Haley O’Shaughnessy to examine Joel Embiid's career-high display in the 76ers-Lakers game, Ben Simmons, and the state of Lonzo Ball (0:57). Then they give out some first month awards (14:30). Next, the guys are joined by Kevin Clark, who tries to explain the enigma that is the Orlando Magic (36:50). Finally, Haley rejoins the group to look ahead to an exciting Warriors-Celtics matchup (45:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Basketball is very good. The Rockets are better without Chris Paul. Janus will win the MVP. What if Kyrie Irving is actually God? Basketball is very good. Hey everyone, thanks for listening to NBA group chat. My name is Chris Ryan. Today I was joined by Justin Verrier and Haley O'Shaughnessy.

We talked about last night's amazing Sixers victory over the Lakers and Joel M.Bee's star-making performance, if he isn't already a star. We did some first month of the season awards, and then we were joined by Kevin Clark to talk about The Magic, and Justin Ahealy and I also talked about tonight's Boston versus Golden State clash

between the two best teams in the league. It's the game of the season. Let's get it going. Embeddead wants it against Randall. Joel M.B. Got it. He's got a career high 41. Oh, it's NBA group chat in the spirit.

is in the building. Woo! It's a gospel brunch podcast. Because I saw the light last night, Justin Verrier. I was moved Haley O'Shaughnessy. That's great. I went and saw Joelle Embed destroy Los Angeles for the second straight game. In person.

At the Stable Center. I didn't see him against the Clippers. I went last night against the Lakers. Praise him. And we have to talk about this. This is not Sixers colored lenses, man. This is an important story because Akema Lajewan back. Sure, yeah.

first of all, always love when a guy plays up to the size of the gym he's in, where he's like, this is like a big game. People are watching. Los Angeles has got good, like, the Lakers definitely have good fans. No shots at Isaac Lee. But he was like, I want to, I want this game. Right. He kept his personality, which is great.

And just, it's just a dominating force the entire time he was on the court. To be fair, he did dunk all over the clippers the night before. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, he wiped them out. I was just saying that, like, It was just awesome to watch him. I was kind of like, well, they've been in L.A. since Saturday. Right.

We know from Instagram that they have at least been to hide once. He and Markell went to the Pacific Ocean, not very warm this time of year. Sure. Like, he could be having a little cold. Markelle did not look like he was enjoying the ocean. I would as much. What does he look like he's enjoying anything? That's not, you know.

So he comes out. To be fair, the L.A. oceans are so cold. I know. They are freezing. But why jump in them? You're a professional basketball player. You're supposed to. It's not cold therapy.

Yeah, you could get a cold. Which speaking of that. That's why I sound like early 2000s Lindsay Lohan. I'm coming back from a cult, so I apologize. That's a lot to unpack. So then they beat the Clippers. He has an incredible game. He wrestles with Willie Reed, does the choke sign,

just basically is like I own L.A. Takes out a sublet and staples. And I have very low expectations for this Lakers game. I thought maybe he would be on like a limit limits restriction or something. Nope, comes out. 34 minutes, 46 points, 15 boards, 7 assists, 7 blocks. Why did you have low expectations when? Because I just don't, I want to keep myself together with him.

And it's like, okay, he's a lot of minutes against Clippers. Maybe he'll just come out and play like 25 minutes against Lakers. Okay, that's understandable. Maybe this is the end of a long road trip and they're like, you know what, we did what we came out here to do. Right, but everyone wants to bring it against Alonzo. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I think it's that. I also feel like he's the type of player, like when you hear stories about 80s era football players

where they're like, oh, I went out and did cocaine right before the Super Bowl. Not to say that Joe M.B. did cocaine. No. But the fact that he'd been partying and he'd been out in L.A., I feel like that almost fuels him. I also feel like it fuels him to just have people try to talk junk to him. Yeah. And he just wants to go back at them and dunk over.

So this is basically a 4x-by-100 relay race. Like the Sixers are fourth and pace. The Lakers are third. Both teams were like ripping and running off, makes or misses. And they turned the ball over a ton. They're two of the worst teams in turnover percentage. But the best part about it, I mean, the NBA stuff we can get to. but you could tell right away that definitely Ben Simmons

and pretty much Robert Covington just had Lonzo's playbook. So they would both kind of hang back like safeties in the sort of mid-court area. And his Lonzo would try to get that break going. And Lonzo's thing is to throw that early pass to a guy above the break. And surprise everybody. Ben would just jump it.

They would either tip it or intercept it. And it just completely spooked Lonzo. And then in the middle of the first quarter, I think, at the end of the first quarter, Brett Brown puts T.J. McConnell on, T.J. McConnell just guards Lanzo in 90 feet. It's just, whole court press Lanzo ball.

It was awesome. It was like completely talking about the game. They had no countermeasure. The Lakers only looked good when they were playing all the guys that are not on billboards, with the exception of Kuzza. But it was like KCP, Clarkson,

Boget, Brewer, those were the guys who kept the Lakers in the game because otherwise, if you were just like, wait, how come the Sixers aren't up 25 right now? That's how lopsided it looked out on the court. Yeah. But just, a breakneck game.

Like, I can't explain it. And the crowd was even just like, whoa, whoa, like looking back and forth. And I think that one of the things I took away from this was that initially I, watching a few Sixers games. And you guys jump in whenever you want to just tell me to calm down. No. We love this. Keep going.

I was like, I'm really into this team. They're really exciting. I want to see a little bit of like tactical sophistication with what they're doing. Because right now they're making the most passes. I think they're making the most passes of any team in the league. They're whipping the ball around. They're moving it well. But I'm not sure, like, the Ben not being able to shoot thing makes watching basketball

feel awkward because everything you're expecting to happen doesn't happen. They're like, oh, right. So he's got eight feet of space here. You should nail this. Nope. He's either, like, go in and do a hook shot or he's going to throw a no-look whit pass to JJ Reddick in the corner from like 22 feet away. Right.

JJ and Covington are like their saving grace. Yeah. Yeah. I think I've been encouraged over the past few games. I went to the game on Monday, and although they're a young team, this should, like, theoretically be a clash of two of the youngest, like, up-and-coming teams in the NBA. But the Sixers don't play like that.

There's, like, a level of sophistication that they have, and I think, well, for one thing is that the rookies are also old. But even Ben Simmons, for his first year in the league, like, he just plays with the level of poise that's like, I don't want to just overshoot this, but it's LeBron-esque. He just has, like, the body control. he has the court vision and he has the ability to know when to use his strength versus when to like kind of get around guys. It's like it's really exciting to watch him.

He also, so initially in the first few games of this season, there was a little bit of troll concerning going on about how Ben and Embed were taking up some similar areas of the court where like Embed really like to stand at the top of the key and play like the garnet role. And Ben also sort of like to stand at the top of the key and play floor general. That's taking care of itself. And I was, initially I was kind of like Traditionalist like why is this Behemoth standing at the top of the key? He's the only, it's like obviously the inefficiency would be to put him down on these lower

smaller guys. But now I really like this Garnett role for him because it keeps him super engaged in all the sets for the first three and a half quarters of the game. And I think it kind of maybe saves his body a little bit to go low at the end of the game and basically be the closer.

Yeah. Because at the end of the game they would just dump it into him and they were playing Randall on him one-on-one, which was basically like go jump off a cliff. And then when they did try to start doubling, he just moves the ball right out of there. He just gets it right out of there. So it's not only just Embedd's individual accomplishment,

the fact that he says he's only at 69% healthy, very nice. Nice. It's the fact that, like, they seem to be getting better. Did he really say that? Jesus. He said, I think I'm only 50% healthy. Oh, my God, I love him so. He's actually 69, and then he looked at the camera.

He's the only one that could pull that off, and we're not just, like, rolling your eyes out. Did he wink or anything? I mean, everything he does is wink. I would say that the coolest thing that happened, though, was, like, was sitting in the Lakers. I was a civilian last night and didn't go as me, and I wanted to be able to cheer. And watching Lakers fans turn on Luke Walton because he wasn't doubling in Bede and just watching, like, the Sixers bring the ball off the court, and they'd be like, double him, what are you doing?

And it was just like, wow, this guy can, like, turn a gym against him. to coach. Yeah. Julius Randall was on him way too often. Yeah. It does speak to, like, his versatility. That, well, for one, it speaks to the Lakers' over commitment to small ball, where it's like they don't have enough big guys.

And it's just like, who do you throw on Embed? The only guy who gave Embed problems last night was Bogot. Yeah. Because, yeah, I think that's the way to do it, especially because Embedit hasn't been doing well from three. Yeah. Like, I was watching him during that Clippers game. And John Gonzalez, who was sitting next to me, which is just getting pissed the whole time because

he does this ridiculous pump fake from the top. from the top of the key where no one is falling for it, especially because he's not shooting well from three, and then he just keeps doing it. That's like all of his offense starts with that to a certain degree. But other than that, you really need to put a big body on him, or he's going to just stomp you.

Yeah. I mean, it's just the only guy, like I said, the only guy giving problems with us Boget. Where do you expect them to be in the east? I think that there's going to be some regression in terms of, first of all, like, they'll just have injuries. I mean, they'll just have, right now they have like a pretty tight rotation. Right.

They are a little shallow. I don't think Covington can continue to shoot at this clip, although, like, shout it to Robert Covington getting paid, but also, like, on a really good deal for the Sixers, frankly. You know, I mean, like, they rely a lot on JJ and his outside shooting to stretch the floor because from the perimeter, you know, Ben is not a threat. But this group that they have can be almost anyone on any given night.

And that's really exciting. It's the first time that's been that way in a very long time. It's like before the Doug Collins years. to feel like every night you have a shot against any team. So that's really cool. As far as the Lakers go, let's talk a little. I'm not even here to be like, let's get Lanzo ball in this pod for SEO purposes.

But do we, are we concerned? He's just kind of fallen in the back of my mind. Yeah. I feel like he hasn't. And Luke's mind because he got benched. Right. Yeah.

Well, but that's necessary right now. They can't play their young guys in games like that in the end. I would argue that they should be playing him through all that. Like trial by fire. Yeah, just trial by fire this. Just like make sure he knows like how to play through these sort of things. I was encouraged early in the season despite the poor shooting.

Just because when you watch him, especially up close, you see how he gets everybody involved. I was like the last person on this hill. I have since died on this hill myself because he just can't shoot. Like it really just throws off everything he does because he also doesn't have the dribbling ability and the handle to kind of get by guys. Right. So he really doesn't provide much on offense other than. passing the ball. Or even like the ferocity to get to the rim. Yeah, he's very passive.

He is, I could see him being good against teams that like sagback or play compact defenses and he's good at unlocking defenses with like sees passes that other people don't see. He starts breaks where there aren't any breaks happening. But for a team that's playing like they've all been snorting riddalen for three days, like he's just not going to be, he's, he can't play with a team that's that aggressive with him. And I felt like, I felt like, Like, you know, like, I don't want to be, this is hypocritical because I'm like, Markella doesn't have the yips. It's, you know, he hasn't even played. But, like, Lonzo was shooting like, he had the yps.

You know, his shot looked very, very, very bad. Yeah, and when you just, when you just said, like, yeah, you know he can't shoot, it's not that he's making, like, you know, for a game. He's literally sometimes making none a game. Having said that, I'm still in long term. I still think he is a cerebral type of player. I think if you had a good team, I still think he would be really good at it. But I don't think he's going to be the type of player,

and maybe this is too soon to say this, but it doesn't seem like he's the type of player that's your number one. I don't think that's unreasonable to say long term, especially since Magic had that comment the other day where he was going to, they said, we're going to let him shoot like he wants to shoot through the season, and then we'll revisit it after the season, which I think is the right move. Because if you try to tweak too much mid-season,

it kind of just throws a guy off more and it becomes very much. process of being on the road and like the the whole NBA sort of production line of like games like I don't know that you get that much work done on your game your individual game during the season right I mean you hear those stories all time of guys saying that they fell out of shape during the season right nobody practices right so you really don't have time to work on the mechanics and all that stuff which is what he needs he needs to work on the basics I would say that if we had one lesson that we learned and tell me if you guys agree with this from the first few weeks of the season it's that I think because we got so hyper on this rookie class. And because we have seen guys like towns come in and just completely impact the league and change the fortunes of a team. We're kind of like, okay, like rookies, rookies can come in right away.

But for the most part, you know, the NFL recently has started just bringing rookie quarterbacks in and playing them right away, but it's traditionally like accepted for there to be an apprenticeship period, you know, and in the NFL and in the NBA too. Like, you know, I remember there's been plenty of situations where Draymond Green really only started

playing because somebody got hurt, you know what you mean? Like it's not like you bring Draymond in. You're like, this is what we think he should be doing. So I think that that applies to Lonzo. It applies to Markell. I think expectations are really out of whack. And I think those teams are in very strange positions because on one hand they want to sell tickets and shirts and put these guys on billboards and be like, look, we're going in the right direction.

Yeah. But on the other hand, it's like there was guys need to learn how to play the game first. Yeah. It's partially like the ball family's fault for just building up the hype all this. But also because Justin very. or take shots at LaVar Ball. We can write that post. I think we've been writing.

I think it's also that, but it's also the fact that this is the biggest drama to the season. The fact that on draft day, Danny Aange basically just said this guy isn't our guy for Markle Foltz. It kind of set up this long-running thing where it's like, this is what we're worried about. Because the warriors

are not going to create inherent drama within the season. We know who's going to win. So we turn to the rookies because these are the most exciting guys. And I think because of that, we've been watching every Lonzo game, every Fultz, like, YouTube video of him shooting with the wrong hand. Every IG story where he's smiling or not. All right, guys, so we are 15 games about into the season. And we figured it would be a good spot to kind of take a step back and give away some awards, see what we think of the season so far. So let's start at the top with the MVP award.

Pretty straightforward. And we've discussed this a couple weeks ago. I think we started talking about the way the race was shaping up. I guess I know that some traditionalists get annoyed if MVP discussions happen any time before April or something. But we can just call this of the month. Of the month. Right? We're one month into the season.

Okay. We're not saying that because my answer is kind of, I think, not sustainable. Well, let's find out. I was wondering if this might be a unanimous decision by our board. Let's say it on three. One, two, three. Chris. Who did you say?

Kyrie. Oh no, I said prison. Yeah, we both said prosaingias. Kyrie. Yeah. It paints me. It hurts deep down. Did you miss Danny Chow putting in our slack earlier that his stats are not that impressive?

I did not miss that. In fact, I was holding on to that. Like with deep. I also did not miss that you were like, I disagree. Yeah. No, I'm very much in on Kyrie despite the stats. Here's my concern with Kyrie. Sure.

Jump ahead here. I think it's very Derek Roe. Rose-ish, where Kairi isn't why they're excelling. It's clearly Brad Stevens in the system and what they're able to do with whatever parts they throw in there, which is why I actually have Brad Stevens coach of the year.

But I think Kyrie in the same way Isaiah Thomas was kind of the bullet, whereas like the gun is what actually is the power behind it. Sure. Is the apparatus. I get it. And he's just like the means by which they're like winning games. Because he's the one

who's scoring. Granted, a very talented means, but I see what you're saying. Sure. Let's get something 100% clear. I did not want to say this. This is just for me using the logic that MVP awards usually have, which is A, the story of the season. And I think that Kyrie

leading this team to the league best record without Gordon Hayward after losing him in the first five minutes of the season, they've been gutting out wins. I don't even know if Kyrie has had like a signature victory. I mean, he's had really good games, but you know, he's been playing great.

He's played through this, a couple of little, uh, small injuries, um, plays 30 minutes a game, 22 PR, 20 points a game. I, I, and the fact that he is doing this with a group of me, you wrote about this, Haley,

like all of these random new Celtics who are stepping into new roles, they're playing without the defensive sort of stewardship of Avery Bradley, but they're an even better defensive team this year than they were last year. Right. Horford's been in and out. And through it all, Kyrie has led this team to win after win after win. But like Justin said,

I think that that speaks way more to Brad Stevens. Right. Because he really knows how to play to people's strengths. And there's no way that Kyrie just decided, you know what? Like, I was so mad all those years in Cleveland. I didn't want to play defense.

Like that is also in part Brad Stevens. Right. And so I would say for similar reasons, that's why Porzingis is our MVP pick. because that roster is even worse. I feel like if anything, I would give executive the year to Danny Ains for picking the right rookies, getting Jalen Brown in there, he really looks like a type of guy you can win a title with. I think the Knicks have like two good players.

I was trying to convince myself that Tim Hardaway was actually good yesterday and it just didn't happen because he took the most insane shots at the end of that game. They're already 9 and 5 the Knicks are. They're over under was 30 and a half. So they're already a third of the way there. Which is freaking insane. Yeah. Like, I just think Porzingis is the best player on the court most of the time.

And the only reason they have any shot. Do you think that what do you think about the fact that we spent the first two weeks of the season obsessed with Janus? Janus is the MVP. Yonis, Yonis, Yonis. And then we changed the channel. Like, did something drop off with Yonis? Or has things just, I think we just turned our attention elsewhere? I think the latter.

Because Yonis is always going to do what. You know, I mean, he's always going to take over the games and be the buck's, like, main guy. I just think that's, like, other things have emerged and been more exciting. Even, like, I put this as second place for MVP, but, like, angry, vengeful LeBron has been very entertaining. And I think that he is, like, slightly embarrassed by what happened in the middle of the first month. And so he's, like, I mean, all the things, the Instagram post after the New York game, it's just, like, I think that we are going to see, like, this. fire underneath him that comes out like at least once or twice do you buy the idea that that fire could burn him out before for the most important time of the season?

I think they're asking a lot of him. I watch that game against the Mavericks on Saturday. And it's just like if he's not the one doing it, I don't know who it is. Kevin Loving's stepped up in that game and you're really getting nothing from any of those positions. So if I had a ballot, which I put my top four, I had Prazingis. I had Harden second. Like we overlooked the Rock just because they're just rattling off wins. But he's been very good. And I haven't really been watching because I'm more interested in how he and Chris Paul kind of congeal. The rockets are kind of having the season that

I think the calves were hoping to have quiet victories. Yeah, exactly. Just quietly put it like just moving through no drama. Everything's working. We're working on this thing. We're adjusting that thing. But in the meantime, we're putting away Ws. And, you know, I think as soon as the calves just got to that

around 500, everybody smelled blood in the water. And now it's become this circus that, you know, it happens every other year for a LeBron team. It seems like. Right. All right. So, Kyrie, Christops, Chris Stops, I think we are unanimous and rookie. Yeah. It's your boy. Ben Simmons. Yeah, it'd probably be better to talk about like our second place.

Yeah. That's actually interesting. Yeah. Who do you have second? I kind of have a tie between Dennis M. Jr. and Donovan Mitchell. Interesting. It's hard for me to put Donovan Mitchell like a solid second. To see him with truthful eyes. Louisville's own. Yeah. Well, that, but also like we can't ignore the like history. shooting has not been great. Although he has been asked to fill the cup a lot. Right, right. And I think that as the season

goes on, or maybe, you know, next season we'll see that all this repetition has really helped him. But it's hard for me to put a guy shooting like that in second place, but also he has games where it's like he just lights it up. It's interesting. They're actually doing with Donovan what you were saying that you wish they did with Lonzo, which is let him play

through it. And I think he's like such a competitor that you can see. He knows that there's a lot of betas on the jazz team. Like even Rodney hood and these guys who were supposed to have step-up years. Right. Like Donovan's like, I want to, I'll take 21 shots. If nobody else is going to do it, somebody has to score.

And I think that really relieves like Rubio because he never, I don't think he wants this burden of like, oh, I have to put up all these points. And I think it's probably been really difficult on him to be relied on like that. Yeah. And I think for that reason, I like those guys long term. I like what it means for them two years, three years from now. But because their shooting percentage are so low, I didn't have them on my ballot. but I had Tatum second.

I had Tatum second. Oh, Tatum. Yeah. I also had third Kyle Kuzma, aka Kyle Sousma. I had him too. And I'm wondering when that becomes something that everybody feels comfortable saying.

It's almost like we're scared of putting another Lakers rookie, you know, like giving them the full recognition. But if Kyle Guzma was like on the jazz, we'd be having the exact same conversation that we just had about Donovan. Yeah. He's very good. Like I was in doubt early in the season just because I didn't know if the shooting would translate.

he's actually not shooting from three all that well. I think Kuzma is at like 32% maybe under, but that's literally the only thing he's not doing well. He's shooting like 50%. He's starting for a team. He's playing solid defense. I think he just makes sense. I think he's a guy you could just plug and play.

Brian Wynhorst was on the Ryan Russo Show a couple of days ago, I think, and they were talking about Embed actually, and they were talking about this idea of when a player begins to understand what he's capable of and realizes that the other team can't stop him. So he was comparing it to the LeBron's first playoff run.

And he's like, Embed understands that no one can stop him. It's really interesting to watch Coosma play because I think he thinks similarly. Right. Like he doesn't want to take lots of shine. But there is almost like this hesitation in the entire arena on Walton's part, on the team's part, where it's like, could this guy just be the number one option? Should we, there's a real hesitation. He almost had the dunk of the year on Embed last night.

and if it'd gone down, we would have a completely different conversation today. It beats facial expression after that was like, that could have been. Yes. Which was amazing. But what you're saying is it speaks to just the labels we put on guys based on where they're picked.

Like how many chances did Anthony Bennett get simply because he was the number one overall? Exactly. And if Khrumma had gotten cold, it had started cold in the beginning of the season, people would have been like, that was just summer league, that was just preseason. I expected that, yeah.

A Lakers. Shout on Megan Schuster, by the way. way, who literally the first possession Kuzma had in Summer League was like, that's the guy. Wow. Yeah. Chow Shuster. All right. So I think we're all, are we all in agreement? Wait, I just want to say, I forgot about Tatum because I actually forgot

he was a rookie. He has been playing great. He's having also the classic rookie of the year season, which is just already solid. Right. Yeah. Right. He's a vet. Yeah. But yeah. I mean, are you, are you into Tatum season so far?

Yes. I love him and Jalen together. That's a great deal. I think we all have the same coach of the year. Yeah. Brad. Although, I will say Pop being able to put together a decent team with what they have on the court right now is insane. Like, Marcus Aldridge was trade bait and we thought he couldn't fit in there like four months ago. And now he's, I think, like, top 15 in P.R.

He's like a legitimate first option for that team while Kauai's out. So he deserves some love. I have another shout out for Coach of the Year. The combined 19 and 9 of Stan Van Gundy and Tom Tibido. who we threw under the bus a couple weeks ago saying the leave had passed them by. That's true. Detroit and Minnesota, both being good. Minnesota, I think we hoped and expected it would be good.

Detroit is a bit of a surprise. Yeah, 100%. And it's pretty fascinating just to see Stan Van Gundy turn Luke Knard into an NBA player immediately. I also think that Hornacek deserves some praise. Absolutely. It's not... LeBron agrees with you.

Exactly. I loved that quote. LeBron was saying after the game, which is so funny because there's this thing where now we just just asked LeBron what he thinks about everything, even when it's not related to him. And he said after they played New York, I think Jeff Hornacek is finally, with the release of the old fella, he's finally allowed to implement what he wants to do on the team, which is obviously like Phil Jackson and the triangle.

And then Christop said the exact same thing. And yes, their offense looks much, much smoother and better than it did last year, which was just like confusing. You know, everyone looked confused. LeBron takes any chance he can to throw shade at Phil Jackson. Was that kind of love? Yeah. Although him going at Nilkina, I really didn't appreciate it.

I didn't like that. Kind of a jerk move. I think he, I agree with you, but I also appreciate the fact that LeBron understands drama. Yes, he's TNT. He could have just been like my bad little guy and run past him, but it's the garden. Like do something crazy. That's true. Make it dramatic.

That's true. Speaking of Millikina, he is my biggest surprise of the year. Wow. I did not ever see him play basketball before. this NBA season, didn't really know who he was, thought it was just, I mean, I had no doubt that he would be eventually fine, but it's very rare that a rookie is praised so passionately for his defense. I love it.

And it's just been such a surprise to watch him out there. And now all these, like they're the Knicks Film School Twitter account, just putting together defensive montages of Frank Nolkina on a nightly basis. So that's my biggest surprise of the year. Haley, what's yours? I would reiterate what you said earlier and say the pistons. Yeah. Because I think that a lot of people were really low on them after what happened last year.

Because it's like, yeah, they started off with Reggie injured, but then when he came back, it kind of got worse. So I think that people were like, even when he's healthy, it's not going to be great. But I think that we all knew going into the season, everything had to fall right for them. You know, Drummond had to be better. Reggie had to be, you know, more selfless. And their outside shooting had to work, or at least they had to take a lot more shock. like traditional Sam and Gandhi offense. And they're second in the east.

So hopefully that continues. Yeah. I had them second on my ballot. I had Aldridge third and I had the magic first. Aldridge. Yeah, we had. Aldridge is another case like Janus of the first week or two. We were obsessed with Aldridge's Renaissance and then we all got bored and watched.

It feels like two years ago already. This is what happens with peak NBA TV. Everybody's moving on to the next thing. So Aldridge is number one. I had Aldridge third. I had the magic one, simply because I debated between them and the Pistons, but I think the magic, I didn't see that coming at all,

whereas the Pistons have at least had some success and they had Drummond, so it's like splitting hairs, basically. For biggest disappointment of the year, I went with Markell and Lanzo having slow starts, just because I think we had so much hope and we were positing them. I mean, the full thing, no matter what the reasons behind it, is tough.

I don't think it's, I also, we haven't had really like an update in a while about what's going on. You know, it is just, it seems like a real, the indefinite, they weren't kidding about the indefinite part. He's with team.

He seems to be enjoying himself. I caught him laughing a bunch of times last night, but. That's great. The number one and number two picks struggling like this is sad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mine is something,

so those are huge bummers, but mine is someone who was absolutely supposed to be, way, I think, better than he was the last two seasons, which is a high bar. And that's Carl Anthony Towns. Last year, or, I mean, last night against the Spurs, he did have a big game, and it was his birthday, so happy, belated. Shouts to Scorpios. Yeah, shout to Scorpios. But he should be having a bigger year. Like, don't get me wrong, he's still averaging 21 points on a team with Jimmy Butler and Andrew Wiggins. But I think that there were much higher expectations

for him. And I think that he should be in the conversation that we're having about Porzingis, that we're having about Janus. And it's interesting because we praise those two so much for how exciting their offenses. But the big problem with Kat is still his defense. Can we go out script a little bit here? Sure. Is Cat on the wolves and the way that the Thunder played obviously better without Mello, but just in general, like the sort of problems that they've had in the beginning of the season? Super Team Backlash? Hmm. That you, there's, not that there's only one ball, but that even just philosophically,

there is a hierarchy to basketball lineups and to basketball teams that doesn't support true, true big threes. Right. There needs to be a Bosch. And even in that case, there needs to be a Wade, which is, I think Butler is really playing a really good Wade role this year. Butler's like, look, I can pass. That's fine.

Wiggins never. And I like to play defense. And Butler, you feel like really is. Winning is the most important thing to bother. Absolutely. And if Wiggins takes the winning shot, as long as it goes in, it's fine. But I wonder whether or not the big threeification is going to be a short-lived trend. I think even last year, Wiggins and Carl might have both thought that they were like the number one option.

This year, it's much more imperative that that's cleared up. Yeah, I wonder if this is a case of where we are in the season too. Like, obviously teams that have an established hierarchy are going to be able to put things together quicker. Whereas it took the big three heat, what, that entire season just to really kind of come together to figure out who plays where and like when someone goes when. I will also say that despite all the concern over the wolves, they're third in the west right now. So I am worried long term. So I also wonder if this is a regular season versus a playoffs sort of thing too. Whereas, yeah, maybe it makes sense in the regular season to reel off wins to have a hierarchy.

But when it comes to the playoffs, you really need two, three guys to just go in there and be superstars. That's what wins basketball. It's like not to be reductive, but like you look at every freaking good team in the playoffs. Those are the guys who have several guys that can do it. Yeah. So for the calves. Caves. Disappointment.

Yeah. For me, Kyrie Irving, simply because every time he opens his mouth, it's a giant disappointment to the entire world. It's good. I'm also a little concerned now about my Charlotte Hornets. I think they're five and eight right now. Okay. I'm pretty pretty bad. What's the problem there?

I just don't think they have good. players. Jeremy Lamb came back down to Earth. Like Dwight Howard definitely fell back to Earth very quickly. Like even when they were playing well like his shooting numbers weren't as good as they should have been. And I was like, oh, that's not a good sign. It wasn't a good sign when he showed up at preseason with weird contact lenses into. And like Nick Batum is back so he's really the only

guy that can dig them out of this. But I think they might end up at best kind of like bottom playoff team. Okay. Very quickly. Let's do the Tony Allen Memorial Real Good Guy Award, aka the low-key dude you're in on either because of how he plays or his social media. Mine's Jonathan Simmons. Okay. Oh.

Super energy guy. He, okay, so it just came out that he told reporters that LeBron James called him over the summer and was like, dude, play with me. And he was like, no, because I want to beat you. And now he's playing on this team where he's on the bench. Yeah. You know what I mean? He started like one game, but he's still, he's not like bitter about it.

He comes in. He's a super good energy guy. not afraid to drive to the rim. We'll literally go against any huge guy in the league. I just love it. Yeah. He's one of their five most important players on that team. Which is cool to see.

He comes in. He definitely brings them something. Mine is Enis Cantor. Easy one. This dude showed up like five days ago and he's already standing up for his boy. It's like if family in all caps. Right.

It's as if someone at Sweet Green tried to step to me and Danny Chow was like, get away from him. So Danny is Ennis Cantor. Yeah. Don't go near his Kail Caesar. I have to go with a slightly less charming, I think inherently charming person, but Eric Bledsoe, because of, I'm really happy for him for straight with the Bucks since he joined the team for wins in a row to go from where he was, exiled from the sons, you know, tweeting from the salon,

getting indefinitely kicked off the team by Ryan McDonough, but then traded to a great situation for him in Milwaukee. and immediately making an impact. And I love watching Eric Bledsoe play. I think he's had a lot of really tough breaks in his career with injuries. And I don't know that he's ever been in the really, was he played on two good teams? And you know, you could make the argument

that you make your own luck. But it's awesome to see him play on a team that really deserves having like a great player like him. It's also the weird example of an addition to a team that doesn't seem to have disrupted the team. It should made it better. So moving Brogden to the bench was actually, it's just improved their

rotation and their depth. So shout out to Eric Gordon for having a second act. Bloodso. Eric Bledso, sorry. Did I say Eric Gordon the whole time? No, just the last time. Sometimes I do get Eric Bledso and Eric Gordon confused,

but I've met Bledsoe. I slip up Paul Millsap and Al Horford like three times. We're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and then we're going to talk to Kevin Clark a little bit about the Orlando Magic, but we'll be back to play guest the narrative with the Warriors and the Celtics game tonight. Let's take a second to chat about the NBA show's sponsor. And that's Hotel Tonight. It's an awesome app for finding and booking great deals at great hotels.

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the hotel is where the room service is. So this year, pull out of the pull-out couch and get a room with hotel tonight. Today's episode of the Ringer MBA show, group chat is also brought to you by Wish. You want to save big. Over 300 million smart and thrifty shoppers have discovered Wish,

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Alfred Payton's team So I was redoing the NBA 50 So Drexler's off Aaron Gordon is in Yeah George Mikan's definitely out We're gonna put Jonathan Simmons in Where's Vooch?

Yeah Vooch is going to replace Nate Thurman And so those are the only changes Okay It'd been made Jury still out on LeBron and all those guys I think the funniest thing you've said on Slack Since I've started working together I mean you've said incredible things to me in person

But on Slack, the funniest thing you've said is when Christops didn't play against the magic, and you responded to that news with Aaron Gordon Flew Game. Yeah. No, no, it was, yeah. So Christops obviously scared of the magic. Right. And for good reason. He ducked him.

Yeah, for good reason, the magic destroyed the next that night. So a couple problems with the magic right now. So first of all, they still have a winning record. In case anybody doesn't know, feel good story of the season to start with, right? Sure. Yeah, oh, definitely. One of the biggest surprises, if not the biggest. Right.

Are the magic for real posts? Right. And it's not, it's not just the magic or good. It's the individual improvement. Like Aaron Gordon, Terry Stott's was saying this yesterday. The Illinois Senator wrote about it. Terry Stott said he's never seen improvement like Aaron Gordon, where you're a 29% three-point shooter,

and all of a sudden you're hitting 50% of them. And maybe it's just a small sample size, but like the stroke is good. He's hitting dagger threes. Like he has the confidence. And so, I mean, I kind of believe, like, if Aaron Gordon's not going to shoot 50% threes over the entire season. But if he becomes a reliable three-point shooter after being really bad for his first three seasons,

I kind of agree with Terry Stott's. Like, who's better? So are you low-key making the case that he should be the small forward of this team? I mean, I don't know. It's such a jumbled mess. It's such a jumbled mess right now. I mean, and that's part of the – so the shooting has obscured a lot of a couple of other issues. First of all, you know, when Alfred Payton was out,

they went five and one and they had incredible ball movement. So that's one thing that's aside. But also, just the shooting has carried them in so many situations that they, A, the ball movement hasn't been as good as it should be. But B, you know, I don't think we know who our best guys are right now. You know, I mean, I just think. But that was charming in the beginning of the season. It was like, wow, they got a lot of tools.

They got like, oh, they can hit you with this Swiss Army knife of a bench. It's so interesting. Right. And so, I mean, Shelvin Mack was getting minutes last night. Obviously, Augustine was hurt. But, like, you know, I just think that Vogel was still finding out what his rotations are. At one point last night, the Magic went, the Blazers rather went on a 17-0-0 run in which the magic turned the ball over seven times. So we obviously have, there's some runs to be had against us.

Seems good. Yeah. And so I just, you know, I love this team and I love individual improvement. Evan Fornier is playing really, really well. we always knew he was a good offensive player, but he's a complete player right now. Bionbo is not a horrendous contract. I just want to say that. I get heat sometimes because everyone's always like, what are the bad magic contracts?

I don't really say Bionbo. Do you people hit you up on Twitter and ask, what are the bad magic contracts? No, no. I was on a pod with Bill last over the summer, and they were like, who are the bad contracts you can dump? And I said, we don't actually have any, like, outsized horrendous contracts. For what Bialbo does, I think he is a bad contract. if he's not starting he's a bad contract because he's getting paid like a starter.

I think in a vacuum it isn't a bad contract but within the context of what you actually does. It doesn't make any sense to have this many. We have Isaac too. Isaac's been hurt. Isaac is hurt currently. Right, but I think if you want him to ascend

to that kind of four or five hybrid role and not necessarily have another big thing. No, I know that, but I do... The two things that we need because Vooch is not that is, you know, defense in a post presence. Right. And Vooch wants to stretch the floor, and that's great.

But I don't really know Vooch's role if we have other outside shooting, and we have other, you know, guys who can hit 15-foot jumpers. I just don't. We've long argued about Vouch and his role, Marrier and I. Well, like a week, but sure. Mostly Danny Chow and I. Yeah. But, you know, his role in modern NBA.

I mean, 15 years ago, which would have been a phenomenon. He's just not, you know, he's not that anymore. It's fair to say they've had the results they've experienced recently are, you know, it's a contribution is the fact that they've been on a West Coast road trip. They lost to the Warriors by 10. Yeah. They lost to a Denver on the night when Yonogh went nuts. And they lost the tight game to Portland last night.

So it's not, I wouldn't really raise the white flag yet. I guess the question about Orlando that we were asking before this season is, what's the goal here? And do you want to draft from the John Hammond? sweet spot of the mid-first round, or do you want to lose a lot of games that you get one of these top three guys? That's a great question. So I would like to miss the playoffs again. That would be my hope, maybe get the 10th pick, get one more piece going forward. I think that we're not there. We don't have, we're not the Sixers. We don't have the pieces where it's like, okay,

we're going to go forward and this is our team. If Elfer Payton were an elite point guard, then we're talking about something else. First of all, we have to sign Gordon and Peyton presumably after this season they're going to be restricted for agents. That's one thing roster construction-wise. We need to keep an eye on. But I do think we just do one more piece to pair him with Isaac. If we start here and we just start building towards it and we just start drafting with the 18th pick,

that's not going to get us there. Yeah, I think they're similar to the Knicks in that their surprising start has been exciting for now. Yeah. But unlike the Nix, I don't think, like, Prasingu's is obviously a frontline guy. and Jason Concepcion has been saying the fact that Porzingis has stepped forward and shown to be a top 10 level guy, that's enough to satisfy not getting a top pick in this next draft. I don't know if Aaron Gordon has reached that status.

He would need to show himself to be an all-star in order to make good on this being a playoff team. For you to come away from the season being fine with the sixth seed. Right. I mean, there's two different things. I think Aaron Gordon can get this team to the playoffs. I mean, I just think that his game has improved immensely, and I think you can get there. it's two separate things. Like you said,

am I happy to be the seventh seed and lose to Cleveland in five games? Right. Not really. Right. I'd rather miss it. You don't want to be Detroit from two years ago or whatever it was

who just got in by the skin of their teeth, got worked by Cleveland, and then almost seemed to have a hangover with it for the next season. Right. You can't take that past this season or these playoffs. Who are the keepers on this team besides Gordon, though? Like I look at the roster and I'm like...

Isaac? Isaac. And then... Four and... Maybe Simmons? Is Fornier? Oh, no, Jonathan Simmons. Yeah.

Yeah, Fornier is a keeper. Jonathan Simmons. Who sees himself as like a LeBron contemporary. So that's great. I love that. Spot the lie. I want to ask you one question before you take off. You're one of my, like, you're like a true NBA fan in the sense that you view the NBA

through the prism of your home team, of your team. And those are like the most interesting fans to talk to you because I'm always curious what your observations are. I just found out about the Warriors. couple days ago when I had no idea they were that good. What's the best team that you've watched this year? Warriors aside, what's the best team you've seen Orlando play? Oh, geez.

Certainly not Cleveland. No. Because Cleveland was terrible. The team that play the magic the best, I mean, it's hard because, I mean, we were rolling through some good teams. We destroyed the cats and one of their worst losses in history. I mean, I don't. The Celtics game.

The Celtics game, yeah. I mean, I think I was just trying to build. the other day. I mean, the Gordon Hayward injury is a basketball tragedy, and it bumps me out, even as someone who is just very parochial and territorial about my team. I don't think you can get a raise just for saying that. Okay, cut this whole thing. I'm sorry, the whole reason I showed up was to try to do that. No, it's just

the magic have been such a weird team, and when you hit three, that's that sort of what happens, is that you can beat good teams, so you can't really tell who's good. I mean, the Blazers impressed me yesterday, a lot. The Warriors, obviously, were incredible. The Magic, by the way, were winning that game in the second quarter and I took a screen grab. The Warriors. Really? The Warriors. Good.

So I'm going to pass down to your kids. Okay. So we're going to come back and talk a little bit about tonight's Warriors Celtics game. But thanks to Kevin Clark for talking about the magic. Thanks, buddy. Basketball is very good. Okay. Thank you to Kevin Clark for that incredible Orlando magic insight.

I know I feel smarter. Dustin. Yes. I know so much about Orlando now. A little sadder. Honestly, just hearing it. A little sadder. Game of the year tonight?

the year, sure. Sure. So far? Yeah, so far. No, the entire rest of the season. Well, nothing will add up to it. Here's the thing I hate about the Warriors. They don't give us games the year. The thing.

They do them in the Western Conference finals and the finals that they have great, you know, the Memphis game from a few years ago and they got the record was awesome. But nine times out of 10 as someone, and I'm looking at Jason Cahill, as I say this, as someone who has gone live after a Warriors game that was supposed to be exciting and tight,

and been sitting there with the remnants of my own life and my own failures as they win by 25 points. I find it hard personally to get worked up for Warriors games. That being said, this is in Boston. Boston is the hottest team in the league. Boston has one of the best players in the league going full guns right now. I don't know. I'm pretty excited.

I'm trying to keep my expectations tempered. Haley, after this game, what's going to be the headline? Like, what's guess the narrative? I would love if Boston. Boston won and all of a sudden we start having that like, is Kyrie better than Steph debate? Oh, yeah. Just because, not because I believe it, but just because I love drama like that. Right.

And I think that would be really fun. And I also think that if Boston won, it'd be really, really hard for the crowd that says Boston is going to get out of the east to not just become everybody because it's not that unreasonable anymore to believe that. Yeah. I think one team is going to ascend to. front runner after this game. I think it's very likely that's going to be the Warriors. I think after that Wolves game was it last week where they just blew them out in the second half, I was like, the Warriors are the Warriors now. I feel like if they do anything like that against the best team in the NBA, like the other best team in the NBA, then it's done.

To be fair, I'm done with them for the rest of the season. The Warriors, watch. Yes. Hit me in the playoffs. Now, do you feel, would you rather watch the best team every night? No, I would rather watch it up and coming team. Every night. But I remember with the, I think when the heat were the best team, because there was so much drama surrounding them, and because teams actually did try to bring,

bring their best against them, because there was a little bit of, you know, you ruined it every, you, you ruined the league by joining forces. I felt like that was must-see TV. The first few years of the Warriors were incredible

because you were watching almost a new kind of basketball being invented. But now I agree with you. I'm just kind of like, wake me up in May for these guys. Well, with the heat, with those heat teams,

there was still less of, a talent disparity than there is now with the Warriors. So the only time a Warriors game is fun is if they semi-collapse or if something happens, like the Wizards game against them was one of the most exciting all years.

Someone got ejected in that game. Bradley Beale and Draymond Green got ejected and it was so much fun. My guess the narrative is going to be wow, Marcus Morris really went after Draymond last night. I just feel like it was interesting watching when Bogot and Bede were going after each other last night and I was like, oh yeah, he's

got his number a little bit. I'm still waiting for somebody to pull Dremont's card a little bit. Yeah, it almost was Beal. Yeah. Like, they were in like a headlock and like one point in the game. But that was mostly Beal.

Like, Dremont actually did the right thing for once. Yeah, right. Good guy, Dremon Green. Right. Yeah. Okay. So, any predictions about tonight?

I mean, what do you have, do, what do you think that happen? I think that the Warriors will win and actually think that they'll pull away before we want them to. So maybe like the third,

early fourth. But that's not what I want, but that is kind of what I think. You guys have been talking about how the Celtics are reminding you of the Spurs. So I think it's going to be a Spurs game where Boston goes up 20 early and we freak out. And then the Warriors have like a 40 point swing. Sure. I think at some point the Warriors are just going to wallop them because like this is the type of game that they should get up for. Yes.

Because they probably been hearing the past two days like, oh, the Celtics might be coming for you guys. And it's just like, hold up. We have five all stars and you're playing a rookie and a dude with a flat top against. us like fall back. Okay. All right. We'll see. Great.

For the record. We don't have a show next week, so happy Thanksgiving to everybody in advance. And we will be back the week after that with NBA group chat. Until then for Haley and Justin, I'm Chris Ryan. Basketball is very good. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show was brought to you by Hotel Tonight, an awesome app for finding and booking great hotel deals. There is no more crashing on your air mattress in your childhood bedroom this year.

Instead, lock down your holiday plans with the hotel tonight. Book a room up to seven days in advance everywhere and up to 100 days in advance in certain major cities. Or wait until the last minute, if that's your speed. You can make a break for it when Uncle Tony starts talking politics. Whether you need a room for tonight, the holidays, or beyond, you definitely want to download the Hotel Tonight app.