The Ringer NBA Show - Harden to Philly? Simmons to Brooklyn?

Episode Date: February 5, 2022

Bill Simmons and Kevin O’Connor discuss the trade rumors around James Harden and Ben Simmons. This conversation originally occurred on Spotify Greenroom. Hosts: Kevin O'Connor and Bill Simmons Producer: Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Head into the Ringerverse to stay up to date with all things superheroes and nerd culture entertainment. Hosted by a rotating lineup of superfans at The Ringer, including Mallory Rubin and Van Lathen, shows will provide instant reactions to blockbuster releases, insightful backstories on canon, and mind-bending theories, as well as fresh takes on the latest news and rumors. Check out The Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, welcome to a special weekend edition of the Ringer NBA show. My name is Kevin O'Connor, and I hopped on with my boss. Bill Simmons on Spotify Green Room, and we recorded a live conversation right after

Sham Sharani from the Athletic dropped a report about Ben Simmons and James Hardin having traction. So we talked about what we're hearing in that situation, what to watch for this next week, and what we predict will happen by deadline day Thursday afternoon with Hardin and Ben Simmons. Here's our conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you, everybody, for joining us on Spotify. Green Room today got Bill Simmons in the house. He gave me a call Bill. And we decided why not just have this call happen live on Green Room to talk about the latest report between the Brooklyn Nets and the Philadelphia 786ers with some James Hardin, Ben Simmons stuff. Sham Sharani reported that the Nets are now open to listening to offers for James Hardin. And that with Hardin, there's some challenges with their offense. They get two different systems with Hardin on the court, with Hardin off the court. And the team would like to play more. more of a consistent style and what Hardin can do for them. Bill, what are you hearing with the latest here with Hardin and Simmons?

What are we going to be watching for this next week with what could be a massive blockbuster deal? First of all, very professional intro, KOC. Very professional. Really, really sounded like serious, weighty. It brought them the table. I'm just, I'm doing this green room. I have a strained hand.

I heard my, oh, no, that's sorry. That's James Harding. Yeah, look, there's been breadcrumbs really. The story drops, what, two weeks ago or a week and a half, whatever it was. And I was really suspicious. I thought it was coming from Clutch. I thought they were trying to drive Benson and stuff. But then you watch everything that's happened with the Nets the last two weeks,

and the breadcrumb starting to drop and hardened missing games for random weird injuries. And that four-point game he had the other day. And then, you know, more and more people are talking. And I think at some point, when did you start to think this was not just smoke being blown around that we actually had a brush fire? What day was it? Yeah, it was around the time of that report you're mentioning, the Jake Fisher report on Bleacher Report. And I think it was Zach, hello, last month in December. Zach had mentioned the rumblings of it, but at that point, it didn't seem real.

It probably wasn't until a week or so ago or two weeks ago that I felt like, oh, this actually has a shot at happening. And the thing is, Bill, it makes sense to me. Like, it makes sense for Ben Simmons to be, if you're Brooklyn and you feel like Hardin might actually walk this summer or you have any reason to believe that he might walk, and we don't know that he's talked to the front office yet. But if he does indicate for any reason he might leave this off season, if you get Ben Simmons there,

that's a great fit next to a potential full-time Carrey Irving at some point later this year with Kevin Durant. They love the switch screens on defense. He can be a facilitated. tater for them in the half court. It makes sense for me for Brooklyn to want Ben Simmons is my point here. That's why I kind of started to feel, okay, I see the logic in Brooklyn doing this. All right. Counterpoint. The last time we saw Ben Simmons, he was basically in the fetal position during the Atlanta Hawks playoff series and then has decided not to play since. And we have no

idea what's going on with his head and where he's at and what kind of conditioning is in, all that stuff. I think the upside of Simmons and the ceiling of him as a player, we're penciling that in as a reality. And I mean, how is that a safer bet than what we've seen from James Hart in the last year? I have no idea what to expect from Simmons as a player. You're right. On paper, he would solve a lot issues for them. He'd give them a transition game. He'd give them a defender who can defend every position. He doesn't need the ball. You'd still be able to revolve around KD and Kyrie for the scoring. like I get all that, but what Ben Simmons am I getting? Like, what intel have you had?

This is now we're in month nine of him basically disappearing. Nothing that matters. I haven't heard of any intel that would indicate that Ben Simmons is going to come right back and be a all-NBA talent. But I'm not sure how much even if we were hearing that those rumblings, like if Shams drops a sore story that Ben Simmons is eager to come back and ready to commit to winning a championship and Brooklyn. I don't think that matters.

Like you don't know what you're going to get necessarily, but what I do know with Simmons is that some of the stuff, like the shot criticism saying he's soft or like the stuff that we've actually seen on the court, him not shooting, the reluctance to even do stuff outside of what has going comfort zone, passing the ball to fidele in that game that sticks against the Hawks. I mean, I think with him, with Brooklyn, if you're playing with Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving and you guys,

and you got like Joe Harris basing the floor and the guys they have on that team, I'm not sure some of the Ben Simmons flaws actually matter that much because of, yeah, the offensive responsibility is going to be handled by those guys. If you're Simmons, all that matters is him fully embracing what they need him to do. And that's the type of stuff that he was never able to do in Philadelphia. Because in Philly, they never had a point guard that can shoot trees like Kyrie Irving. Nobody's had a guy like Kevin Durant who can do what he does. with Simmons in Brooklyn, what it would be is be the defender that you've been in Philly

for years, an elite defender, a potential defensive player of a year candidate. And then it's set screens. It's run the offense in transition. It's cut to the rim. And maybe, I mean, who knows? Maybe he would at this point spot up in truth freeze. But I don't think that's even a necessity when he's surrounded by the guys that he would be for the Nets.

And for Brooklyn, I don't know how much more they'd get than Ben Simmons. Maybe you did. So that's the thing. Yeah. What else is in this trade? Well, so my understanding is that from a Philadelphia standpoint, like in that Sean's article, he mentioned, well, what more is Philly going to give? Are they going to give Tyrese Maxi? Are they going to give Matisse Thibel? What first round picks are they going to give? My understanding is that from Philadelphia's standpoint, there's no chance they give up Maxi. Thibble even is probably as unlikely in that deal. It would be more like an older player like a Danny Green in that situation. And for the Nets. Oh, boy. That's the risk there for Brooklyn.

Because if you ultimately, though, the key here, Bill, the key is what James Hardin tells the nets. If Hardin indicates to the nets that he'll likely walk or will walk, that's what's going to determine what Brooklyn can reasonably ask for. Because if there's any indication that Hardin will go this summer, Philadelphia is not going to give up two first-round picks and Thibble and a protected first. That just wouldn't happen. And in that situation here, we don't know all the details yet. But Harden. Well, hold on. There's one more piece, though.

From what you've seen from James Hardin now for a year and a half, is he worth the big price that Brooklyn paid for him to begin with? Probably not, right? No. He's never gotten into a fully in shape. And, you know, I just don't think he's a top 10 player anymore. Now, you could argue he's just been in a weird situation. but how was it that weird of a situation like he did get to play with the healthy kevin durant um he didn't show up for training camp

in shape and yeah the kairi thing is is weird but you know in the boston playoff series last year those three guys together we we were wondering if this was potentially the greatest offensive team of all time you know so it's it's just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that everybody has just decided if we're to believe some of this stuff and if we're to believe Hardin wants out that everybody's just like, yeah, this didn't work. Like when did NBA players become like, you know, like my daughter and her friends where it's just like you're just bouncing around and I like this guy now I don't. Like NBA players are like this now. It's bizarre. I mean, with Hardin though, can't you kind of understand though? I mean, he's proven he'll do anything it

takes to get where he wants to get to. He pushed his way out of Houston. He hired the sports agency Wasserman and then dumped them as soon as he got to Brooklyn that helped facilitate his exit from Houston. And now in Brooklyn, he comes here and he's expected to be able to not carry the load like he had to do for years in Houston. Now, Kyrie's a part-time player because he's not getting vaccinated in New York still requires vaccinations to play in an arena. And Kevin Arant is out right now with a sprain MCL. And I mean, who knows? We'll see how much that could limit Katie the rest of the year. If you're Hardin, there has to be some appeal in going to Philadelphia, forget about the people he knows there, forget about Michael Rubin being an owner, and forget about Lori and Tad Brown.

From a basketball standpoint, Hardin, if you're looking at playing with Joelle and Bede in the spacers, like Seth Curry in the back court, playing with a guy like that, to me, that would have a lot of appeal to be in that situation from a basketball standpoint, forgetting about everything else rather than dealing with some of the drama in Brooklyn. I mean, don't you feel that way? Even a little bit? Go back to Hardin, though. And, you know, you're on this. I just don't think he's the same guy that he was two years ago. And especially like when, you know, those two years, when they really came close to win the title, what am I getting? How do I know that he fits with Embed? because to me that's a pretty weird fit

because I think Hardin there's really a one-man show everybody standing around and watch me aspect to how he plays and if he's a facilitator point guard which we've seen him in transition he's fun to watch but Embed you know he's

playing at the highest level he's ever played and now I'm putting Hardin there who doesn't move if he doesn't have the ball is that a problem with Embed I don't know like I just don't think it's a slam dunk where you just go oh yeah, you put these two together, watch out. It might be.

But from the Hardin we've seen in the last two years and the fact that Embed, honestly, I think this is the kind of team he has now, even though it's definitely limited from a ceiling, from a talent standpoint, it does fit him better. It's all around him, right? Everything is geared toward him and him doing stuff

and he's, you know, the alpha, for lack of a better word. And now you're bringing Hardin into that. Is Hardin going to be happy? We've seen Hardin, like, really get unhappy. multiple times the last few years. So he's going to be happy with Embed? And is Embed going to be happy giving up the steering wheel half the time? I just don't think that part's a slim dunk,

especially with all the assets you'd have to give. And I just way hard and handle the last couple weeks really makes me nervous if I'm the Sixers. And this is my one chance to cash in for Embed, right? Is this the best I can do, I guess is my question? In terms of the last few weeks, how he's handled it. What do you mean by that? with the injuries sort of stuff,

like just small little things. Yeah, like, all right, so the stuff comes out two weeks ago. Why didn't he just say something? Why didn't he just say something? Why didn't he say like, hey, I made an effort to come here a year ago. Hey, you know, this is,

I came here to play with KD, my friend. I don't know where there's noise is coming from, but I'm a net, I want to be here. There's the reason I chose the nets. He didn't really do that. And then you see the six-game losing streak, and they just seem really dysfunctional. And it's hard for me to believe all this stuff's not related, right? Do we think Kevin Durantz and Kyrie, but especially Kevin Durant, would sign off on a Hardin Simmons thing?

Like, based off what you recorded 15 podcasts of Kevin Durant. You know the guy. I would say he does, like, flow and movement, but I think, I think. I think, I don't know, I thought, watching that Celtic series last year, it sure seemed like that team was going to be pretty incredible. So it's hard for me to say this didn't work. The Kyrie piece is the piece, right?

This is all the dysfunction that he brought to the situation this year. Maybe that was too much for James. I don't know. I mean, maybe he didn't want to play with him. Hardin did have that, what seemed like a joke recently. He's like, I'm going to put. I'm going to give him the shot myself. Right.

He walks off the podium and it seems like a ha-ha, very funny jokes, but maybe it's actually, it's embedded in like some serious frustration. Like, really, this guy just can't get vaccinated. And I have to carry the load and be tired by April, May, June. That's the one thing I feel like, you're right about Hardin, Philly. It's not a guarantee. And it's not a guarantee because the version of James Hardin that we saw this season is not the MVP or even like the no-brainer all NBA guy.

He's just not that the season. Did you think he should have made the All-Star team? Because I thought two weeks ago, yes. And then when they named all the All-Stars last night, I actually thought he shouldn't have made it. I thought there were better guys that got left out than the up and down season that he's had. I would not have put him on.

Like Drew Holiday, guys like that, maybe. Jared Allen. Somebody, yeah, Jared Allen, 100%. Somebody from Charlotte. Like Bridges in Lamello. They've been bawling all year. They don't take games off. They didn't show up out of shape.

I thought Hardin should be in the All-Star team, but I really regretted thinking that after the last two weeks. Wouldn't it have been funny if Jared Allen did make the All-Star game over James Hardin? Oh, my God. Yeah. But you think, like, from the Nets perspective, we have no idea when KD's coming back. No.

So he could come back next week. He could be fine. He could also, who knows, we haven't really heard that much about it. It's like Davis all this show, and showed up for the Wakers. He was fine. Yeah, I went to the game last night. He looked awesome.

So maybe that'll be Durant. But for now, we have, Joe Harris seems like he might be out for the year. We have not seen Durant. Kyrie only plays part-time. It doesn't seem like they're changing the vaccination piece. And if you're Brooklyn, maybe you're thinking this isn't your year.

And you get Simmons, you try to rehab them, you get a ton of assets back to kind of replenish what you gave up to Houston. And you still have a puncher's chance, like once we get to the playoffs, if Durant's healthy, who knows. But I'm more bullish on this trade for them than I was two weeks ago because, man, that hardened number to the thought of giving him an extension and not knowing like where he's going to be mentally or physically two years from now, that really makes me nervous.

Right. There's a scenario here where how many years? I love Embed, as you know, I did a whole thing on my podcast last week. I have no idea if he's going to be able to stay on the court three years from now. You know, like the history of big guys is a little sketchy. And then the hardened piece, I don't know either. So if you're Philly, you're going all in on two guys who just aren't sure things the same way. Like, Yonis, I'm penciling in.

Yonkich, I'm penciling in. You know, John Morant, that makes me a little more nervous because the way he plays, right? but you have to think long term, like, how safe of a bet is so-and-so? And Harden and Bede together, it's definitely a gamble. There's no question. Well, and that's also why for Philadelphia here, despite the fact that they might feel that they could wait until the off-season and get hardened for less than they could right now. Yeah.

For them, well, if you do that, you're wasting an MVP season by Joelle Embedde. Like he is ludicrous this year. He's one of the best bids that we've seen this century. And if you're going to waste that just to get, just to maybe get James Hardin for a bit cheaper, that seems in some ways like you're not respecting what you have this year in Joel and Bid, with what you could be.

And with Hardin, there's no guarantee it works, but bring in those players that, like, what was the line more he had four years ago? He talks about, I don't know, increase your risk profile. I think he told that the ESPN. You know, we want to raise our risk profile. You have hardened and bade. Your upside is enormous.

And the downside could be low. But the upside with those two guys playing together, they could beat you in any single way, any single game, depending on the series, the personnel on the floor. You could play a more perimeter-oriented style through pick and roll.

You could play with ISOs. You can play with the low post. I mean, those guys together could be an absolute dominant force in the half court, when the game slows down in the fourth quarter of postseason games. That's the upside if those guys work out. And I think it's one of the rare trades that could actually be mutually beneficial for both teams.

With Brooklyn, they get, like you said, you're extending the window, you're getting a younger guy, three years left from the contract. He can screen, defend, facilitate, do all the stuff Blake Griffin did last year and was important to that team before he fell off a cliff. And with Philly, for all the reasons I just stated, I mean, to me, like, it makes a lot of sense on paper for both teams. That's my main feeling that I have about the situation here, despite how big of a deal it is, it makes sense on paper. And I agree with it on paper with the caveat of we have no idea we're getting from Ben Simmons. But then the other caveat is this is a terrible

outcome for Brooklyn if this is how it ends, unless the picks are just out of control. Which they might not be, you know, like we talked about earlier. Because they gave up all this stuff. They got to rant to sign the extension. They gave up all the stuff, and it seemed like they did the right thing, right? They're going to always be in the luxury tax. They'll always have enough money to do whatever, et cetera, et cetera. But now, I don't, whatever this hardened trades that ends up being, it won't be as bad as all the picks they sent to Houston.

And then on top of it, you have to worry about, you know, that your fans having PTSD with a, all of a sudden you have all these first-round draft picks out, but you don't have a sure thing team anymore. So you're banking on Simmons, who as we just watched, disappeared because his coach was mean to him and they tried to trade him and he didn't play well in a playoff series

and we haven't seen him since. So that's like a healthy amount of pressure for him versus going to Portland, right? Like if, and sadly, I think Dame is really, I think he's probably out for the year. So I think Dame for Simmons is probably off the table. But like if Simmons goes to Portland, Portland or Indiana, that's like the perfect place for him to get his feet under him again as a

player that I think we both like. Going to Brooklyn, you're back in the fire, man. How is that less pressure than Philly? It's less pressure because you have Kevin Durant and Kyrie for at least half the games on your side. And they're the ones facilitating. They're the ones running the offense primarily. For Ben Simmons, when he was in Philadelphia, it would be, you know, like who else is going to do it. They didn't have anybody else last year that could take on that responsibility. And I think in that sense, that does alleviate pressure off of Ben Simmons.

Of course, you still have the expectation of winning and championship expectations. But there is a difference between playing for the Nets than playing for the NICs. There is a difference there, undeniably. I mean, regardless of how hardcore the Nets fan you are, and that might be listening to us right now, there's a difference in terms

of pressure, media coverage, reaction to games where you screw up. I'd say in Philadelphia for that, man. matter. Like there's a dramatic difference in the way that team is covered compared to the nets. So I definitely think pressure would be alleviated for him in Brooklyn. I'm a little less worried about that, Bill, to be honestly, like with Ben Simmons, the Ben Simmons concerns that I've had since before the draft with his shooting ability, shooting with the wrong hand, like the mental makeup stuff that Draft Express had written about at the time pre-drafts,

that matters in like 20 situations. But there are a handful where it doesn't as much. I think Brooklyn's one of them. I really do. So, Kyrie, all roads kind of lead back to Kyrie, right? It's never for Kyrie's fault, but the dysfunction is just always there, just coincidentally, whatever TV's on, which is pretty crazy. But do you think, do you think Hardin, is there any other team for him? Just thought exercise. Like, let's say he really wants out. He told Brooklyn, I don't want to sign this.

Is there another team that could trump whatever Phillies? thing is because really that's the best way for Brooklyn to get what they would probably want in a Hardin trade. You need the second suitor. It's just them negotiating with Philly. That becomes a lot harder, especially if Philly feels like, hey, Hardin doesn't want to be there anymore. We're in the driver's seat now.

You're going to lose them this summer. And we'll figure out a way to get them on our team this summer. So is there anyone else out there that could just be like out of nowhere? We're in. Like, could the Celtics be in on this? Just throwing that out there. And would you want them to be in this? You hit your quota, Bill.

No, but you're right. You're right, though. Like, somebody could step up. Could Washington, could Washington be in this? Well, I don't know why you would be. Could they raise their hand and say, hey, here's Bradley Beale. Let's start with this. Well, they're in the desperate category for sure.

You know, like a very desperate team. Like, well, first, let's consider the. The teams on Hardin's list a couple years ago when the trades happened was Milwaukee, Miami, Brooklyn, and Philly. So those are the four teams. Milwaukee's not trading for him now. Miami, I don't think that they have the pieces. Duncan Robinson would be in that deal. But I don't think they have the pieces that Trump. Yeah, it's going to be a deal.

It's just not enough. But other than that, I mean, I think Boston is a team that you could throw onto that lump. The Wizards, if they were desperate, I don't think the Knicks have the piece. pieces for it, though I would love from a storyline perspective of Hardin goes to free agency and he goes to the next. That would be just be kind of cool if that would have happened. Yeah. In the East, Pistons wouldn't at the bottom. Magic wouldn't. In the West, I don't. Like Memphis, no way. No, no chance. Utah doesn't have the assets and I don't think they would

do that anyway. Dallas. What's that? What's that? What's happening? What's happening there? It's just not realistic. Dallas, probably not. Minnesota, no. Clippers don't have the assets. Lakers, impossible, unless for some reason, Sean Marks loves Russell Westbrook. Blazers know.

Pelicans, why would they risk that? Yeah, why would I already go there? And why would it go to Boston? Why would you go to Washington? Spurs, Kings, Thunder. I mean, there's just limited destinations. Yeah, but if you're in Boston, this is your division, you're throwing your hat in the ring just to fuck with the process, right?

They're like, oh, we want in on this. And you're trying to just drive the price up. You just want collateral damage all over the place. So you're like, oh, you know, we'll talk Jalen Brown and some pigs. And what are you thinking? Like, you got to play that out if you're Boston. Do you want the Nets to get more, though, if you're Boston? Or do you want?

No, what I don't want is for Philly. to basically steal hardin for like Ben Simmons and a couple of pick swaps. I think that's the worst case scenario for the Celtics, where you want Philly to have to dent their team a little bit if they're going to get this guy. And then you think like, think of all this stuff Philly was going to give up for him a year ago. You know? And what would it do? It would have been Ben Simmons and at least four or five first round picks plus maxi plus five, or one of Maxi and Thibble, right?

and now it's probably 70% of what they were willing to give up a year ago. They weren't going to win the title last year anyway. This worked out great for them. How about Atlanta? This might be a stupid one because they have Trey Young. But there were some stuff out there this past week with at least Portland offering them like C.J. So they could use another ball handling presence on that team behind Trey. That's, Trey and James Hardin together is how are you competing with that?

I mean, seriously. Next the other thing with Philly. It's like, how can Thibel be in a Hardin trade? Who is playing defense on Philly? You're going to have James Hardin and Seth Curry and Maxi. And who's guarding any swing guy? Who's guarding like Jason Tatum? Which is why Danny Green is likely the guy in that situation.

And most like you get away with giving cork mods or Nyang. But Philly does need to give something else up on the deal. Like you can't just give up Ben Simmons. There needs to get a salary in there. The Nets have like a catastrophic salary luxury tax, right? Aren't they like one of the highest of all time? So if they're trading hard and I'm sure part of this would have to be Philly's got to take more salary in some form.

Like I don't see them just being like, cool, we'll take Danny Green. Like if anything, I think Philly would have to absorb contracts from the Brooklyn side to knock down the Brooklyn tax bill. I mean, that's why the Portland trade happened today, right? they called the clippers and they're like hey take norman powe by the way that wasn't the only team they called like the nicks were down the road with that too they didn't want to take blitzows contract but i think norman pow is getting floated around just to get under the luxury tax so i wonder does like joe si even care about the luxury tax i mean uh what is it alibaba stock right but at some point you care way down the past year yeah at some point if you're paying 125 million in luxury tax plus your payroll for a team that's going to lose in round one and might not have Durant healthy for all we know. Like, you're going to care about that a little bit. You know what else is amazing about this?

Think of the Nets a few years ago, right? When they rose from the dead, they lost all their picks and, you know, scrapped it together with this team of like Ossell Rans and pickups from other teams and like the D'Ang Russell types and Kenny Atkinson, and all of a sudden they were like in the playoffs. It was like, what an amazing story? The Nets, they're really building.

Now it's like, what is the Nets culture now? It's Durant who's hurt. It's Kyrie who's, you know, the most erratic guy in the league of any star. It's hard on who wants out. And a bunch of old guys and minimum players and Patty Mills. And that's your team. It's like a complete 180. I mean, winning a championship is the goal.

But winning a championship does not mean having the most fun being part of a team or watching a team and rooting for a team. Because you're right. Just a couple of years ago, the Nets had all these feel good vibes, a great young roster. Cap space. We got cap space for two max guys. This is going to be great. The potential is everything. And then you get those guys.

And it turns into where we are today. They paid the rant who they knew wasn't going to play for a year. They, which I think was the right move, but the rant's like, you got to take Kyrie. They're great. Kyrie's awesome. We'll take them. And it's just, I think that's one of the craziest outcomes. Should we talk about Portland quickly?

Yeah, let's talk about Portland. What's on your mind with them? So they got under the tax. They dumped Powell, who I think, you know, Rob Mahoney was on my podcast this week and was saying that was one of his favorite trade pieces because he's somebody we know can play in a playoff series, right? and can defend different guys. And he's definitely a heat check eye,

he can shoot threes. The clippers were not the team I expected to end up with Norman Powell. And I'm trying to figure out what the quippers are doing here because they're in the middle of the pack. They were stuff today about Kauai. Once he's he coming back, will he come back, might not come back,

probably not coming back. Paul George needs more arrest. I don't feel like he's coming back either. So is it just a case of, hey, this is an asset, let's grab it? Or do they feel like if we can just get to the spring as like a five, six seed, maybe Paul George comes back? Maybe Kauai can, you know, by round two could be at like 98%.

Like, who knows? I don't understand it. I think they should have made the deal, but I'd love to know what the logic was other than that's a great asset for us. Let's grab it. So with the clipper side, by short answer is I'm not sure. the longer answer is I'm not sure because they're not done yet

there's a lot of stuff out there about Luke Kinnard being involved in trade talks at the moment like with them I just don't think they're done yet and until the dust settles it's going to be kind of hard to know but I think regardless of them returning

they're just trying to build the best roster that they possibly can around those guys I mean like they're going to be in a situation now where they can put out a lineup of Batum, Covington, Powell, Kauai, and Paul George. That could be a five-man lineup where you can think about what they did

to the jazz last year. With their ability to switch everything and space the floor, that's five guys who can all switch screens and defend multiple positions and shoot threes. And besides Covington, make plays off the bounce. I mean, like that,

the potential there for whenever Kauai and Paul George return, whether it's April or whether it's October. I don't know. I love the deal there. It's the Portland side where I'm a bit confused. Like you said, they were having talks with other people and nothing, nothing of value back besides Keon Johnson. Keon Johnson's a super athletic young player.

No, I can't see. It was a salary dump. That was it. It was pure and simple. We got to get out of this contract. And he's playing pretty well right now. Let's trade him. That's what it was.

You gave up two first round picks to get Covington. Like, it's crazy. I know. When was the last time you watched Covington and thought that he was good? I mean, he's maybe four years. I mean, like Blazers fans got duped last year. What did that deal happened? They were told, well, we're getting a lockdown defender.

No, no, no, no, no. Covington's great off ball. On ball, he's very average or below average. And he can't score anymore. He's falling off there. I've never gotten it. And I know like in the advanced metric community, there were people love them.

Peral Bob and I used to argue about it. I just never understood it. I remember when they played the Celtics, what was that, four years ago, going to those games and just hoping he would shoot as a Celtics fan. Like the more he was involved in Phillies offense, the better it was for us.

And now it seems like he's declined even more. I think to have something like that who just can't shoot, you better be in an awesome situation. Like I heard, I heard you and Berno with the, with the real ones guys, which was really entertaining.

I enjoyed it. Verno was really, I think, did we drug test him after that podcast? He was wired. He was on fire. He was on fire. He was about as gregarious as I've ever heard him.

But his stuff about Jaron Jackson, how he unlocked it from Grizzlies guys, I thought was great, especially Brandon Clark, who looked like a bum last year. Right? He looked good two years ago. Last year he looked like a bum. And this year he looks awesome again.

And it's because Jaron Jackson, like, you know, putting them next to each other. Now Brandon Clark makes sense. I've never, I haven't seen a lot of situations where Covington makes sense. You know, in the league we have now to just have a guy who you just, teams are leaving open. Well, I think the Clippers are one of those teams. Maybe. That's a similar, like, what, that lineup I just mentioned, Covington, Batum, Kauai. George Powell.

That's similar to what he wasn't. Here's what I put in, though, instead of Covington. Because I went, I don't know if you saw the game last night, but Abaka looked awesome. That was the best I've seen Abaka look in like two, three years. And I don't know if they're thinking of trading him, but the way they are. Yeah, he's on that list of potential guys. He's in expiring, right? Mm-hmm. Yep.

Man, from what I saw in person last night, I would trade for him. I think he looked very. Very Sergei Bacai. I was surprised. I thought it was over. Meanwhile, Trevor Arisa was like decomposing in the corner. I don't understand the Trevor Arisa thing at all. How about it, even Bradley, but he shrivel up into the ball yet? But when was last time, Arisa's another one? When was the last time he was good? Like four years ago? Three years ago? Well, how old is Arise? Like, 2018? 36 years old? 36 years now? Look, great career. No shade throwing to Trevor Arisa, but it's been over for a couple of years now. And he was playing crunch time for them last night. Without a move, is there any hope for the Lakers to save the season? Without a move, no trades.

All right, you know this kills me. I thought Davis looked awesome last night. He did. Davis was sensation. Like, to me, I left that game. I was really impressed by the Clippers because they definitely have, like, Ty Lou is, I hate when the coach of the year wins when they're like, it's like a 500 coach or like, you know, 44 and 38, you're the coach of the year.

But that team really plays hard for him. even when they're, and they've had some great comebacks this year, but even when they're down 20, they still fight. They remind me of like those Brad Steven teams from the mid-2010s. Like, you just, you think he'd be down 20, you wouldn't turn the TV off. But this, with the clips, like, I was shocked by Davis how dominant he seemed compared to everyone in the clips. And the clips were playing well, but Davis was just clearly the best guy in the court. And he looked like old school, top seven in the league, Anthony Davis.

So if I'm a Laker fan, I'm more encouraged than I was two weeks ago, right? Yeah, I think so. I mean, all it's going to take is, well, not all it's going to take, but one of the things is just shuffling that rotation and finding your best seven or eight guys. And I think the Lakers are going to look much different from the regular season when guys are in and out of the lineup and they're playing 10 guys on night versus when they're playing eight guys in the postseason. It's just a matter of, is Frank Vogel going to keep playing, Avery Bradley, 20 plus minutes a night? You would hope. I mean, you would hope it's going to be more Austin Reeves.

Can they get a buyout guy? Yeah, could they get a buyout guy? Like, that's likely at some point you'd think. There was one position last night. They left Eriza. He was, I think, the most open I've ever seen anyone in a half-card offense in an NBA game. There was, he was in the right corner. And there was nobody within, like, 11 feet in.

And like they weren't even considering him. It was like watching in football if he just decided not to cover the wet receiver. And he was just white and that was it. And the Lakers weren't going to pass to him either. So, you know, they need to put more shooting around Davis. But physically and athletically, that was the best I've seen him look since, I don't know, the bubble. So I thought he was going to be banged up all year. Didn't see that.

But now there's LeBron stuff where it's like, who knows when he's coming back. his knee and you know they put a lot of miles on an old guy to try to stay above 500 and what are they they're three games under now but 25 and 28 yeah i wouldn't would you want to see them in a playing game if davis is going to look like he did last night no so yeah so could he have like an imbid run where he just for three weeks is just putting up 35 and 15 like absolutely so yeah so in from the Portland side, the Nerkich piece to me is the one, I think he's playing really well too. That's somebody, he's pretty reasonable contract. You just throw him into the season on a contender right now, and that's a pretty interesting piece for somebody. And then McCollum, who I think

they're going to have a lot of trouble to trade because of his salary. I'd be interested to see where that goes. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's Atlanta. But, you know, so what's that? like Bogdanovich and a contract for CJ, something like that. Maybe. Maybe like something involving a John Collins. Collins is being involved in a lot of places now. Hearing about him with Portland, Sacramento, Dallas, Dallas especially. They like to appear in with Chris Saps, Porzingis.

I think that Dallas. Do you like CJ at that price? The price of John Collins. No, just the price of paying CJ like $33 million a year? No. Not at all. I don't like it either. I mean, he is a bucket, though.

He just, he's not a good defensive player. He hasn't developed in the way you would have hoped for as a playmaker, but that dude can score. I get it, but for $32 million a year, like, I can hope he can score. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't love it. But if he's a lot of money. It all depends on your team situation.

I think with Atlanta, the stuff, the stuff about him, you know, potentially being dealt there, that was before this recent. run that they were on. And in that way, like I wonder if things change there. There's probably not a lot of teams. There's not a lot of teams that would want. C.J. McCollum at 30 years old, making $30 plus million

dollars, can't defend, not a playmaker. There's not many destinations for him either, which is weird to say, considering how long he's been a good productive player. But I don't know. I think with this year, it's tough to find fits for

some of the guys that we're talking about, right now. And also, COVID's made the lineups weird. Like, if I'm Atlanta, I'm nervous about trading Collins when I haven't seen enough of him next to Congru. And Akangu has come on big time, right? That's a big reason they've started to win. And him and Collins makes sense together, like, as a combo.

And I don't, I certainly wouldn't mess that up so I could have another shooting guard who can't really guard anybody. You know, I, my guess with CJ is, I don't. I don't think it's Atlanta. I don't either. But, you know, there's some team that will talk themselves and tell them, and it'll be a two-for-one. It'll save Portland money, and they'll get something out of it. The trade that America needs is the Julius Randolph for D.R. Fox trade.

Let's just call that in. Does America care about that deal? Does America care about that one? No, they don't care, but it's the perfect trade. It's like, I don't know what to do with this guy. And the Kings are like, we don't know what you're this guy. And she's like, all right, one for one. it's perfect who should who should give up their first round pick for eric gordon

cleveland right yeah i think cleveland's one of them how about um how about my team that that that that'd be interesting the 14th pick right now middle of the first round that's what they want like i've heard and this is something i don't know if this is true but houston is telling teams that they have a late first round pick on the table for eric gordon so they should he's good let's let's let's let's let's let's I hope they do. Let's say that's true, and they do. Late firsts include from 20 to 30. Dallas, maybe. Cleveland at 22. Dallas getting in would be a miracle for them. I don't, Dallas and he used to no trade with each other. I don't see that. Memphis has the 23rd and the 28th pick right now. Milwaukee 24, Philly 25. Memphis isn't messing with this team. Cleveland's a team. Yeah. I think Cleveland's a team at 22. Maybe, maybe Miami, Chicago, 26. 27. Why not Golden State?

29. I don't know if they have the salary up the top of my head for an Eric Gordon, but I don't know. If they do get a late first for him, Cleveland to me is the number one team that makes sense there. He'd be perfect next to Darius Garland and that back court. Well, if you're Boston,

do you start looking at the east and getting ideas? Because did you see, I mentioned this Mahoney when we did our pod, 538. My Celtic fan friends were excited about this. 538 had the Celtics with as realistic of a chance to make the finals as the Warriors because the East is such a mess. We're like, wait, wait, is this real?

But if you add one more score to that team, so they always have two scores on the court at all times with the fact that Time Lord has been able to stay on the floor and Smart has found a little bit of a rhythm as the playmaker. and you put Gordon with the team we're watching right now. I don't know. Starting to tuck myself into getting my guts kicked in when they lose in the first round. I'm letting my guard down.

I mean, I think with the East, Milwaukee is the team. Like you said, you're penciling them in for being there in the future. You're also penciling them in to be there late in the playoffs. But other than that, what if Embedd tweaks his ankle or hurts his knee? Miami's had a bunch of guys in and out of the lineup all year. The Nets we've talked about their issues. The Hawks have been up and down. Bulls have some guys

in and out. It's open. It is open, but for Boston, to have 538, have them ahead of the Bulls and ahead of, I'm ahead of the Nets, for that matter. There's some really good advanced stats with the

SELTS. The other thing is, the schedule is lined up really nicely the next week or so. Like, as we've joked about, they've never won more than three games all season in a row. This is actually set up now. Like, they play Brooklyn on Tuesday. All of those guys, it's in Brooklyn. All of those guys might not be in that game for Brooklyn. You know, they played Detroit tonight, no Kate Cunningham. So you can see the Celtics all of a sudden at like 36 and 27, something like that with people going, oh, okay. Have you heard any Jalen Brown trade rumors? at all? Nothing. No. I haven't. Have you?

No. You say no, but not like a, like a no. That was a, no, there could be something type of thing. That's all I heard that now. No, I just, I don't know what the Celtics are up to. I can't, I can't get a feel for it. I think Tatum's the only like true untouchable. But as the, I'm just monitoring the Beal situation and knowing how. how scared franchises are of not keeping their superstar happy and the relationship of Tatum and Beal. And I just like, I can never say with 100% certainty that Jalen Brown is a Southwick.

Like, it's frustrating. But you're not getting up Jaylen Brown for Bradley Beal, though. You don't do that? No. Don't do that. That would be madness, especially with the way Bradley Beal is playing this year. That's how I feel. But, you know, we've seen teams tater.

I just get nervous. No way. I just want them to come out and say. You know what you do? You wait until the offseason when he forces a sign and trade to Boston to play with Tatum. That's what you do. And then it screws the Wizards. That's why the Wizards should be looking to deal Bill now.

I would be terrified. If I'm Tommy Shepherd and that Wizard's front office, I would be terrified that Bradley Bill this offseason says, you know what? I don't want the five-year max. I want to be signed and traded to Boston or to New York. or wherever it might be. Right. Because you don't have any leverage at that point.

You're like Philadelphia when they lost Jimmy Butler to Miami and they get Richardson back in return. There's nothing you can do in that situation. And who's to say that if you're Washington, maybe you don't even want to pay Bradley Biel to five-year supermax. We talked about the same thing. Joe House, Wizards fans, they don't want to give Bradley Biel that money at this point. No.

There's got to be people within that Wizards front office who feel the same way that have power and influence on the decision that are made. That could be a McCollum team. well beale and and lower did connect at the olympics before beale had a go no i'm saying keep bill and you trade from a column and you do something that reduces portland's salary stuff even more and you do like a two for one or a three for one you have uh you put our guy denny in there whatever whatever but

you kind of reboot a little bit but not really and with the bill mccallum two power scoring thing i don't know i thought you were saying beale in a deal for mccallum and then you pair up uh uh pair up beale with billard in portland the bear that i get going on yeah i can't they've got to get a real thing for they can't give beale up for somebody who's not like a top 40 guy right like if i'm trading bill i'm getting at least a bonus back well or sub bonus is coming back in a three teamer and i'm getting sub bonus what if it turns into a picks heavy package. I don't know.

Washington's in no man's land. And, you know, we all, we all took turns with the Washington jerk circle, the first two weeks of the season. It's pretty embarrassing to go back some of those takes. What's on Telf Jr.? Coach of the Year, Kennedy? Look at his rotations. And it's like, it's been a shit show.

And then it's like, oh, Montres Harris-Harris. Somebody's unhappy with him again. Like, that seems to be a recurring team. How many unhappy teams are we up to with him? And then Dinwiddie, who, how bad is his contract? I can't remember. I mean, it's like around 20 million average for the next three years. Oh, yeah.

And he looks so horrible. It was, you know, it was always illuminated that the Nets made no real interest in trying to keep him. When from a tax standpoint, they actually, I mean, from a right standpoint, they actually could have potentially had some advantages. right but they were good they were like no no go ahead you go yeah all right we covered everything i think we did i think we covered it all bill that was fun all right so we think yes or no yes or no yes or no and now we're up to over 5,000 listeners it says look at that i appreciate all you people out there that's nice i think the cap is 5 000 yes or no gun to your head is james hard and on the sixers next week yes i think yes too i think i'm going yes i this is such a lot of

loss for me. I had two weeks ago. I had the tweets like, where the fuck is this coming from? This is clear propaganda. Now it's like, wow, James Hardin's going to be in the Sixers. It makes too much sense on paper for both teams, considering the off-court stuff, the contract situations and the basketball standpoint, as we covered here, Bill, I think it makes too much sense not to happen for both teams. I'm looking at the chat. Somebody said, Jalen Brown for Halliburton. Harrison Burns in the number one. Huh. What do you think about that? If you're a Celtics GM right there, you get a call from the King's offering that.

That's from JC in the Chesae. That's interesting. That's a lot. So you'd think about that. If you're the Celtics, that's a lot. You'd think about it. I love Jalen Brown, but man, that's a lot. I mean, you figured could Barnes replace 70% of Brown's offense?

Spot-up shooting, a little bit of creation here and there. Yeah. Good defense. Yeah, because you get 18 points a game from Barnes. And then what is the upgrade with Hallibur? And I guess that would depend on how much. If that was like an unprotected first, but I can't imagine the Kings doing that.

Then again, I don't know what the Kings are doing just in general. I thought they should trade Harrison Barnes a year ago. Remember that? He had like a real market. He did. And then there was stuff earlier this season about them wanting to keep Harrison Barnes because they have a playoff mandate to make the postseason. And now you're hearing Harrison Barnes' name involved in a whole bunch of stuff out there

because they're realizing he's valuable. They've offered him for John Collins too. I'm just not sure exactly what Atlanta wants for Collins. I'm not sure what the Kings are targeting with Barnes. It seems like he's involved with everything right now. Everything that you hear about with the Kings. It's Harrison Barnes related. I'm not hearing much about Fox for that matter at the moment.

That's because he's looking for apartments in New York. York. Man, Barnes, Halliburton, and a number one for Brown. That's a pretty good idea from JC. I like that. I think I would do that. I love Jaylen Brown, but man, that's a lot. That feels like $0.25 in the dollar.

You've been King's? I mean, you've seen it. You've seen the Halliburton Games without Fox. There's, that guy is really good. I might be too high on them. I'll fully admit it. But, you know, I just think it's so hard to find. actual point cards who can run teams.

How many are there? What Halliburton did in late December, he played six straight games, I believe all without Fox, average 23 points, 10 assists to four turnovers, shot 50% from three. He was ridiculous what he did. He was just complete command of the offense

and even though the King's lost games because they always lose games. Halliburton looked unbelievable. Looked unbelievable during that stretch. And I hope it's unbelievable. Like all NBA potential. Exactly. Like all NBA type of guy.

And if I'm the Kings, like I look back at that stretch and that's... Yeah, I'm not trading him. I wouldn't trade Hallibur. If I would not. I would be able there. I agree. All right. A brief recap for the people who join late.

KOC and I think that there's real smoke with this hard and stuff based on the fact that how erratic the last two weeks have been, all the intel that has come out. Some of the agendas that are pretty easy to see with some of the... some of the stuff that's been floated out and how unhappy the net scene. So that's one. Two, we think Portland's salary dumping, just plain and simple. There's no other explanation. We don't understand what the quippers are doing, but we like it.

We don't understand it. I don't think there's a master plan. We don't fully get it, but we like it. We like Norman Powell. It feels like they just got him for free. We think Fox for Randall could happen. What else? What am I missing?

Fox for Randall was the idea that you liked, right? I think that's going to happen in some form. So is there any reason to believe that will happen? Or is that like just a gut feeling type of thing? Well, you have... Just to clarify for me and for the listeners. Well, you have Wes with the major Kentucky guys, ties, right? With the Cal Perry and all that stuff.

So if anyone's going to believe in Fox of any of the other 29 teams, it's going to be the Knicks. he's a good culture guy by all accounts like a great guy i just don't think he's played well this year but you could say what better person to trade for than anyone on the kings your trade everybody is a compromised asset you know you're buying you're buying like a stressed asset basically so that would be their case and then the randle thing i do not understand what happened him this year but the next things have turned on him in an alarming way i i almost can't believe it he's like the least popular nick i mean rightfully so yeah rightfully so the way he's performed this season his defense fell off a cliff he's taking poor shots making silly decisions on the court he can't shoot

anymore and you just paid him a bunch of money after he had an all-nbba year and he was rightfully a all-n-a guy last year i know he's just falling off i mean if i were a nix fan i'd feel like i remember when mark blunt signed that new big contract oh yeah it's like 15 years ago I always hated Mark Blunt. Yeah. My dad was so upset. I think I wrote a whole column about that back when I used my fingers work. We were like, oh, my God, the Celtics had been duped by Mark Blunt.

He played hard for six weeks and got like, what was it, like $50 million? It was some crazy number. 60 million? You said your fingers don't work, well, you should do voice to text. Voice the text to write some articles. Google Docs has a great feature. It works well. I've had some finger movement the last couple weeks.

You never know. There's signs of life. You never know, KS. You did write that in bead thing for your five. Yeah, that kind of, there was some life. There was fingers are moving, keys were getting pressed. That came out great. I loved a video of that on your YouTube.

Thank you. Dylan Berkey edited. Yeah, Dylan Berkey, our guy. That came out really great. All right, thanks for listening. Let's do a Bill Simmons plug. Where's your YouTube channel at, Bill? Yeah, YouTube.com slash Bill Simmons.

And then all your stuff is on YouTube.com slash ringer, I think it is. Yes. Yeah, so Sunday, I'm doing basketball. When is your next podcast? Next podcast is Tuesday, The Mismatch with Chris Vernon. All right. Well, if more stuff happens, we'll pop on Green Room again. This seems significant.

All right. Thanks for everybody for listening. Thanks for having me, KOC. Absolutely. Thank you, everybody. Thank you so much again for listening to The Ringer NBA show. You can catch us all over your feed this next week. and find me on the mismatch podcast feed every Tuesday and Friday with Chris Vernon. And then on

Wednesdays on that same podcast feed, I bring on people from around the ringer, around the NBA, to talk in depth about some topics happening around the league. So be sure to check that out on the mismatch feed and stay tuned on the ringer NBA show. And also check out Spotify Green Room. We're going to be having live conversations. We get other people like Mark Stein on that app talking daily with people listening, asking questions. Spotify green rooms are good time, and I look forward to doing more of these with Bill in the future. Thanks again.