The Ringer NBA Show - Hawks Outwork the Bucks to Win Game 1 of the Eastern Conference Finals. Plus: Rick Carlisle Is the New Pacers Head Coach. | Real Ones

Episode Date: June 24, 2021

Logan and Raja first touch on Thursday morning’s news that Rick Carlisle has been hired by the Indiana Pacers to be the new head coach (0:38). Then they talk about Trae Young’s incredible performance in Game 1 of the Eastern Conference finals and mistakes the Bucks made down the stretch (9:56), as well as the recent hiring of Ime Udoka as the Celtics’ head coach (27:03). Finally, they get into the Western Conference finals, where the Suns are up 2-0 on the Clippers going into Game 3 (32:48). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What If The Len Bias story is about University of Maryland Phenom, who was the second pick of the 1986 draft who went to the Celtics and just two days later had one of the most tragic and shocking deaths in sports history. The podcast investigates how biases death changed the trajectory of NBA history, sparked America's cocaine panic, and made a lasting impact on the world of sports and far beyond. Check out What If the Len Bias story on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's popping? Real Ones. Logan Murdoch here. Sasha Mac on the board.

Raja Bell. Raja, I was doing the rundown this morning. We were planning to talk about, Trey Young, the Celtic stew coaching hire. Here to talk about it. You know, preview a game, game three between the Sons and the Kleppers.

And, you know, just a normal little, you know, pot. And then right before we get on the pod, Rick Carlisle, it's been reported that he is the new coach of the Indiana Pacers. Now, we both know that the Indiana patients have gone through their level of troubles, and we know how Rick Carlisle left Dallas just basically said,

I don't want to coach Luca anymore. I can't do this. I don't want to do this. And I need to walk away. And then I thought he was just going to walk. I don't know if he was going to walk out into the sunset, but I thought that he was going to take some time. And what I'm increasingly figuring out as coaches just need to coach,

and immediately he gets to. Pacer's job. What is your immediate reaction to Rick getting the Pacer's job? Going back home. That man knew he had a Pacer's job lined up. That's what you say. That's my immediate reaction. Like he knew he had like he knew that the Pacers through back channels was going to be a great opportunity or at least he had a great opportunity to get the job. And so I think it's a good look. I'd like like Rick Carlisle, you know, back in the day, I guess you would call it now with Ron Ron and and and and Jack. and Jamal and J.O. They had really good teams,

so he's familiar with how the Pacers work as an organization. He's familiar with the town. He's familiar with having to sell the town to some degree. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of things that I think are great. Plus, he's a great coach. Rick Carlisle is a really, really, really good NBA coach. So I like it for him, but it speaks to, you know,

that unwritten kind of language that's spoken behind closed doors, right? Like, it's taboo to talk about it. It's tampering and all of that shit. But come on, dog. Like, wait, are you saying tampering happens in the National Basketball Association? Right. Come on, bro. No, I would never say that.

I could never say that. Oh, okay, okay, okay. But I like it. I like the move. Ultimately, I like the move. Like, I think it's a good move. What do you think this says about his relationship with Dallas, man? Like, where he, you know, had a great thing.

He could have coached in Dallas for, you know, a few more years at least, as long as he wanted to, as long as he kept the level of success. And he said, no, fuck this. I can't. I don't want to coach a generational talent in Luca. I want to go somewhere where I'd imagine. And I'm just thinking where I'm less stressed, where I don't have to deal with this shit.

What does that say about what's to you from the outside looking in like me? What that might say about Dallas and that relationship that he had there was it? Do you think it was that toxic enough for him to be like, no, I can't even fucking, I can't do this. Well, I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I'll answer it first. It's one of two things for me, right? It's not purely a Luca conversation because I don't know. I would just be speculating, but it would be one of two things.

it would be him and Luca weren't on the same page, right? It could be that. I don't know unequivocally. Or he was so tied to Donnie that, you know, and what Donnie's vision was aligning with his vision, that he didn't want to go through whatever that looked like, you know, with the guy who's going to take Donnie's place. Maybe he didn't see eye to eye with that cat, that there was someone in the organization, whether it be a player or in that front office, like president GM type of role that he was not getting down with. What say you? I think that it says a lot about, it would seem like it says a lot about the dysfunction in Dallas.

And also, there have been reports out there that, you know, him and Luca were at odds with the offense, right? And we all know that Rick Carlisle is a guy that is won hard on his point guards, but also really controlling of his point guards, right? And even when it's a Ray John Rondo, who we both know is one of the smart. guys to play. And in Luca right now, I see it as a thing where this Pacer's team, a bit younger team,

he could have a bit more control over this team in a way that I don't think he could have with the Mavericks as, you know, Luca's finding his power as we've been seeing over the last few weeks. I just see it as a thing where he can get more control with this organization

and more control with this team and kind of mold this pace just team into the vision that he wants to. There's some pieces there. I think that there's always been, you know, the Indiana Pages have always been a solid organization. You know, they haven't always, they,

you can always just imagine that, you know, they might not be title contenders, but they'll always be in the mix of something, right? And after the PG, after PG left, you know, they reinvent themselves,

Victorola Depot plays really well. They're a team that can scare some folks in the postseason. And, you know, sometimes that's just, that's just what it is. You know, you're always around, and there's something to be said,

for that. But when you get a coach like Rick Carlisle, he'd probably imagine wants some more control. So I think that this is, it's more of that than anything. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, coaches, like you see a Monty Williams kind of reinvent himself as a coach and even be, you know, really candid about how he's evolved with today's player and his coaching style and philosophy. Not everyone can do it to that degree, you know? Like, I think to still be coaching, you've had, you have to evolve, but maybe not to the degree that Monty has. So that's a great, I mean, that's a great point. I hadn't thought about it like that.

There is probably more control to be had. You don't have that super, super, super star like a Luca. Hey, let me ask you a question real quick. What's that? This is, and we weren't probably going here with Luca, but Luca's brilliant with the ball in his hands, right? I was thinking the other day about, you know, how gifted guys are with the ball in their hands

and what that's like playing with them at times. And it's, I'm not tapped. in all the time, bro. So you know, you're plugged in way more than, has anybody ever described playing with Luca as being difficult or ever voiced a frustration? I, because I hear you talking about Rick and him getting sideways about the offense. Their offense is him with the ball in his hands all the time. Oh, okay. Wait, hold on. Before we get to this, this is via Tim McMahon, and this is to your point. Shout out to Sasha Mack for putting this quote in. Rick Carlisle said this about the patience. It's a team of skilled, unselfish guys that play hard.

it's always possible that moves could be made before the season, but I think Kevin Pritchard and I are both excited about getting the roster healthy and seeing what this team can be. I do want to get to the point, a question that you said about Luca, but this goes back to your point of him may not being aligned with Donnie Nelson being gone, and it seems like he can, based on this quote, and, you know, this is just a quote that this is, it's all bliss right now.

It's all money. Like, you know, they haven't gone through any times together. But he's talking about how him and Kevin Pritchard can put together a roster and put together somewhere together. And that goes back to the control thing. As for the Mavs, Rick Carlisle told ESPN, it's hard to put an exact finger on it. It's just a feeling that I had that it would be mutually beneficial. My hope is that J. Kidd will be the next head coach of the Mavs because he and Luca have so many things as common as players. Hmm.

I've never seen that before that was interesting to endorse a coach I don't know what that was I don't know what that was was that like oh well shit have Jay kid deal with that

because they so similar I don't know what was that what was that what was that what was that? What was that we're just getting like as we're potting

what was that what do you think about that quote I don't know I think I don't know that he has any see that's why I asked you about has there ever been you know as you're doing

your report and digging around the edges Have there been frustrations ever with teammates about playing Lucas style of ball? Not yet. I don't believe so. I haven't seen anybody say that. But I could see why somebody would not like playing with him. Just because they're standing around and he's such a ball hog?

He's just not a ball hog, but you have to have the ball in his hands. He's his one offense. He is ball dominant, right? Like that's what he does. It's not, I mean, there are different ways of skin to cat. I don't think there's much to that with Rick Carlisle, man. Like you heard, you know, I think you've heard lately. This year, you know, people have lobbied for someone to get the job openly.

We talked about it in the pod before, right? Who was that? That was a little. Dame, Dane. So I just think that's the day and the age. I'm also trying to get J.Kid on the team. J. Kid to coach him. It's a J.K.K.D. thing, huh?

Yeah, I guess it's a J.K.K.D. thing, I guess. But, yeah, I don't know what to make it. I don't know what to make of these closest yet. We just got them. But, I mean, the bottom line is Rick Carlisle is a solid coach, Logan. They're not winning. Like, it's not, like, it's not, like, change. the like the whole trajectory of what the Pacers are. I don't think the Pacers are winning a title any time soon,

no matter what. They need a generational star to do that. And I don't think, unless you draft one, I don't think that that's just going to, it's not going to happen. Nobody's going to Indiana. This is what it is.

All right, man, let's take a quick break. And we will talk about the postseason. And we are back. It's time to talk about Hawks bucks. The Hawks, beat the bucks in game one. 48 points from

Trey Young, bro. He shimmied him and John Collins just came to get... This is how out of pocket this team is in a good way. This is a good way. These motherfuckers. In a third quarter

of an Eastern Conference finals game, Trey Young is throwing a al-you off the backboard in traffic to another player in John Collins. This is how lit the Hawks are right now. I'm just going to go around and ask you this. Are the Hawks title contenders now,

and we just, just was just ignoring this the whole time? Like, me and you are both on the same page with this, been on the same page throughout this playoffs that we don't think that the Hawks, we thought the Hawks are ahead of schedule. They're just a fun team that will eventually lose, right?

One of those teams. I don't know anymore. I don't know. I think that they might be title contenders. What do you think, Roger? It's my bad, man. It's my bad Atlanta Hawks. I apologize.

I do, because you have to put them in the conversation for being able to win a championship. With what their offense is, if teams are going to continue to play them the way the NBA plays pick and roll now, which is in that drop coverage, allowing Trey Young to be at his most brilliant offensively, yeah, they're a title contender. Now, what I would say to that is, and it's not taking it with the Hawks, I love watching the Hawks. I don't have a rooting interest in this series.

I don't. I don't care who wins. I mean, your favorite team is about to sweep and go to the finals anyway. Yeah, so I'm straight. I'm straight. But I do think Milwaukee is the better team. And it's not a shot to Atlanta. Like Atlanta did what they're supposed to do. Like, I think they have a shot.

I think Milwaukee's a better team. It relates to what you're asking me because when Milwaukee decided to change coverages slightly and not, first of all, they size down. right, put Janus at the five. Even Janus at the four, Bobby Portis at the five, if you're not going to drop your big all the way into the paint, giving Trey Young the space that he needs to create, then they're going to chew you apart.

He's going to wind up with a bunch of buckets and other people can eat. When they changed, like in the fourth quarter, Trey went cold for a while because there were bodies in front of them. There was less space. The way you have to get to Trey Young is with with a little bit more touches. physical. Like, you're just letting him operate in space. High pick and roll up out at half court. There's nobody attached to him. The big is, I don't know, 16 feet back in the paint. This man is operating as the smallest guy on the court in as much space as he wants.

That's a recipe for fucking disaster, man. Like, you have to have him size has to overwhelm him and dropping a motherfucker back all the way into the paint. Excuse my language right now because I'm hot. Like, that's the dumbest shit I've ever seen. bro. You can't just watch him do that shit for three quarters. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's funny. It's funny, though, because you got the sense even in this game that the Bucks were the better team. Like, when they turned it on, they turned it on. And I want to get to the Bucks and their lack of execution to put it lightly down the streaks because I think I'm going to get you mad again. I want to get to that in a second. Oh, so it was up. No, they were bullshit. They came out on some bullshit. They came out of the Gates.

looking like that shit was fucking preseason basketball. I got to you. I want to talk about the Hawks for a second because I do want to get them there just do because we have to talk about the bucks because down the stretch they were just all some BS throughout the hole down the stretch. I do want to ask you though,

you're a defender, Raja. We know the type of player you were. Ice Trey is being mad, disrespectful in general on his way to 48 points. And I'm smiling as I'm saying it because I liked it. This dude, a screen, shimmies beforehand, and hits a three in the face of the bucks. What do you do with this kind of? How do we feel? I love this swagger, but I also know the other side of this

swagger. I love it. Like, if this dude, if you're going to let this dude do this, then you're just, he's going to do it. And I respect it. If you make the shop after a shimmy, I get it. I do it. On the other side of that, Rothera, what is the feeling when someone just blatantly disrespects you like that. And then your team does not respond. This dude shimmied in your face and you lose the game. How do you feel on the other, how would you feel on the other side of this? All right. Can I address the, can I address him and the way the Hawks are playing first? Let me do that. I think it's still. Like if somebody's going to let you act a fool and you obviously, there's a joy that they play with that I like to watch that, that off the backboard shit. Like that's, they're playing with.

That's a joy. That's a, you know, um, social density you have to do to throw a bull. the backboard. I know, Eastern Conference finals. You out there having fun, bro, and I love it. And so to that point,

if a dude's going to let you shimmy on him, shimmy on his ass, and then you better knock it down, which he did. From my perspective on the other team, though, I'm hot. Like, I can only do so much

as the man tasked with guarding Trey Young. Can you dig what I'm saying? Because they're screening me over and over. So I have a choice. Like, I can go under it if it's really high, right? but he's got stupid range.

So he's going to get as many shots as he wants off of that. Or I can climb up and try to get over the top of that screen, but now I'm on his back and he's coming downhill and there's no resistance to him until he gets inside the free throw line. I can't do anything with that. I'm on his back. So I guess what I'm saying to you is I would want to take, not dirty plays on him, not cheap shots at him,

but I would want to make him pay for that by being as physical as I could on every possession. Can you dig what I'm saying? Like, just within the flow of the game, there are shots that you can take on people that are not outside of the scope of basketball, the cumulative effect hoping, you know, to wear him out. But if they're just going to let him operate in space

and I have no help on those screen and roll situations, then I can't do it. They were setting so many screens just outside a three-point line, right? And you could see how great, they have great defenders on the bucks. do. You go, you set a screen if, if, uh, if, if, uh, if, if, if, uh, if, if, if, is, is the initial defender is the initial primary defender. You do a screen, you switch PJ Tucker onto him. You do another screen. You switch Janus onto him.

Trey didn't give one fuck about this. He's shoot, he's shot in the face of Janus from like 35 feet out. He doesn't care. I, my question you is, though, it's funny because I'm looking at the stat line right now. I see some Iverson. vibes on this. Do you, do you see any Iverson vibes with Trey Young? Just from a stature standpoint, and just like he is their primary offense, especially on that 0-1-6ers team, where Iverson was, he had to give you guys 35 and give you 38, 48, 48 for you guys to be in, and this was like early 2000. So the final score is like 99, 98 or whatever, but he had to give you that offense. I see that with Trey Young right now. Do you see any similarities between

the two? Yes and no. Like stature, yes. Having to carry the load of your offensive responsibility for the team, yes. You know, obviously, you know, Chuck didn't shoot like he shoots from as far as he shot. He was more of a rim finisher, you know, mid-range. He shoots some threes, but their styles are different. Didn't play out of pick and roll as much as Trey Young. I mean, he's in prick and roll predominantly.

I mean, I don't know what percentage at the time, but it's a pretty high percentage of the time. So yes and no, Logan. Man, I don't, I don't know, dog. Like the, again, so you talk about the Janus possession, right? Yeah. That Janus where he shot it. Janus, what the fuck are you looking at? Like, he was looking away from the play.

Let's transition into the bucks right now. Yeah, let's go into the box. Like, he's looking for a screen, I have to guess, right? And, and, you know, Trey is a gifted score, bro. He caught you looking away. He was deep. You didn't expect it, and he pulled it. But I think generally speaking, when that length was on him,

him when those drew holidays, when those PJs, when the Janus's were on him, you know, field goal attempts became a lot harder for him. He's not super athletic. Like, he's not beating you off the bounce over and over again. He'll, he's kind of like shifty, so he'll shift you and create some space to get a shot off. But with length, he struggled at times to finish. What happens is they just keep running pick and roll until you get Brooke Lopez in it. Yeah. Right? Or until you got Bobby Portis, but Brooke was worse. And at that point, those cats can't switch. They're in a drop coverage, and here he goes.

He gets what he wants, which is coming downhill. Either you go under and I pulled the three or you go over, and I'm downhill into my float game. The other part that was missing for the Bucks was they're getting no touch on the rim run, right? They're getting nobody coming from the weak side. Real talk, the Hawks were struggling with that down the stretch too on those couple timeouts when they came out. They were getting no touch when Drew Holiday and Chris Middleton were coming off of Janus,

and now Janus is rolling. And whoever's in that weakside corner or who is in that corner on the backside of that has to come over and take away the big at the rim. Neither team did that very well. So it was kind of frustrating. Obviously, I think, I still think Milwaukee is the most talented team. But how much is this postseason has come down to coaching in that way? And I think it always comes down to coaching. But particularly in this series, how much do you think that down the stretch this game has come down to coaching as opposed to talent and coaching to

scissors down the stretch. Because there was a time when Milwaukee had complete control of the game, three minutes left. And it looked like they were going to win easily. They turned it on. Okay, yeah, y'all was cute. That was a nice little run, Atlanta. All right, we're just going to pick and roll and throw Lopsianas the whole time and the game is over. And what do you think about coaching down the stretch, though, for the Milwaukee book?

So, again, I thought Bud should have went to that small lineup earlier in that game and tried to contain that man before he got up to like 30 at halftime. Do you know what I mean? he had an 18 in the second half, right? Yeah. So once you made the adjustment, it, you know, paid dividends, but, like, it took him a while to get to it. So down the stretch, Logan, I thought they were in the right defense.

I thought they had the right, they had the right personnel on the floor. What happened to them was, like, they had control of the game, and fucking Atlanta just out hustled them for, I don't know, they got four offensive rebounds. John Collins winds up, knocking a three down out of the corner off of one of them. Capella gets an offense rebound. They just got outworked. And I don't know that that's on coaching.

Like I give bud to business all the time, but that's not, that's not coaching, man. That's, again, Milwaukee not for one reason or another, not understanding the gravity of game one in that series. Okay, but like, I think that goes back. I think that goes back down to coaching rounds. And you could say that. And I think the biggest thing was the last three possessions of the game for them. I'm going to read this to you. All right.

As I wrote it down, I was so, I was just so, I was steamed. first one, first play down the stretch. But Janus doesn't touch the ball, 25 seconds left. Pat Connington gets a wide open three airballs, right? Right. Second play, they take 10 seconds off the clock, give the ball to Janus, he goes to the free throw line. No, it was just a greedious clock management.

He makes them both cool. Then the last play, off-balance shot from Middleton. Just like, just not even, this wasn't a, he had a cool look, wasn't a great. shot. That's out of timeouts. Those are set plays out of timeouts. That's when I think it goes down to coaching. And that's something that we've talked

about a lot when we talk about Bud and this Buck's team, not just this season, but seasons in the past where down the stretch they just don't, they don't have it. They don't have a good play where they can just get a quick bucket. It seems

like it's just so hard down the stretch when it doesn't have to be with all that talent. We'll say you. I disagree. with down the stretch. First of all, they had run, they had called two timeouts prior to that, that Chris Middleton play where he hit Conitin, where they got,

they ran great action and got Janus right at the rim. Like two great, and, you know, ATOs after timeout Jones. Like, so those were, those were good. That one you're talking about with Chris Middleton, they ran like a screen, the screener taking Chris Middleton, like down the sideline into the strong side corner.

Yeah. Like Chris Middleton was bad last night. like that's supposed to be a Chris Middleton bucket. That's why you draw that up. And Chris Middleton drove it and, you know, kicked it out to Pat Conantton. Pat Connotton ain't supposed to had a ball. That shit wasn't drawn up for Pat Conantin. You know what I mean?

Like that's Chris Middleton shoots that ball 85% of the time. He just didn't shoot it last night. And so I will give you the next possession, though. They looked like they were searching for a three and trying to do everything they could. And they were, you know, the Hawks were just like, no, fuck that. Throw it to Janus. and we're going to foul him. So like, I again, I give Bud the business.

But last night, I don't know that that was blood down to stretch me. And I think that was, I think that was just, you know, Chris, what they didn't have last night more than anything, Janus was, I mean, sorry, Logan, was their fucking closer. They didn't have Chris Middleton. He's their closer. Six of 23 from the field, O of 9 from three point range. That's what he does. This is, and, but also you had Drew Holiday, 33 points.

No, Drew was, look, Drew kept them afloat while Chris wasn't doing his thing. And Janus was quiet early. Drew played phenomenal. Yeah. But he's not your closer. And Janus really, Janus is like your 1B as a closer. Chris Middleton is the dude who in the net series who had the ball like trying to create shots down the stretch. That's Chris.

That's Chris Middleton. He's their closer. He's their versatile score. And he was off. Game two. I mean, honestly, the Hawks already won this. They won this split already. They already got the split.

They're fine. They're playing with house money. I think the bucks win and win pretty big in game two. I don't know what's going to happen beyond that. Do you, do you, do I still have the bucks winning the series. I'm just, the Hawks have had just a perfect storm. And I, I don't discount that. I do not discount that.

I just, you know, things have just gone their way in a way that's like, it's just in a magical way. We're just, you know, when you, it's like their deaths. It's similar to the Phoenix Suns in a lot of, ways where it's just like a lot of breaks are just going their way this season or in this post season. So I got the Bucks winning in it, winning game two and ultimately winning the series, but it's kind of, it's looking a little shaky. What you think? So I'm not really, I'm with you. I think the Bucks won this series. I remember I, I thought I had the Bucks in five, but I said

they were all going to be really good games I thought. Like I thought that the Hawks would push them. They'd be good entertaining games. And I thought I had the Bucks in five. I'll, I'll, I'll give you, six maybe now, right, after they stole that game. But I do think the bucks are the better team. And I think, you know, you were really close to saying, Trey have 48 and they lost. What do you do? What do you do now? Now, if so was a fifth, I get it. But like, you were really, really close. So Trey's going to have to do that. And I can't, boy, but if you come out there if you come out there with that boy again in the drop coverage, here's what you need to do. If he, if Brooke Lopez is going to play and you're going to have him in a drop coverage because

you're stubborn, you know what you need to do with Brooke Lopez? Post his ass up. Do you remember? No, no threes? No threes. You know what old Brooke Lopez used to look like with the Nets?

Oh, I do. That was all post work. He's got footwork. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Capella was playing Janice. Make them, you have to, he has to produce something

to warrant being on the court allowing trade to score them points. I'm going to make you more mad, Raja. I think I'm going to make you more mad. I'm looking at the stat sheet. Brooke Lopez won three of seven from the field.

Four of those shots was from three point range. Come on, man. What the fuck? Come on, man. Come on, man. You okay? Are you good? Are you good?

I mean, it's a good chess match, though, right? Like, you thought, I thought Janus would guard, you know, I thought Capella, you know, that'd be a good thing for Brooke, be out there, try to draw Capella away from the room. They put Capella on Janus. Like, but now you got to make a choice with Brooke. Brooke, you got punished John Collins, bro, or Danilo Galanari, whoever the fuck they put out there. They're giving up, you know, five, six inches. You got, you got to punish them, man.

Run some shit. him on the block, get him off the court. You know, man, Copella, we all saw what happened with him and Embeddy, held his own. Yeah, last night. He had 12 and 19. Yes, sir. Respect that. Say a quick break.

And we are back. Let's talk about the Celtics real quick. They decided to coach, M.A. Udoka, former assistant of the longtime assistant of the Spurs and the Nets, was on Steve Nash's staff with the Brooklyn Nets, basically Raja is going to take his vacant seat in Brooklyn soon. But now he's in Boston. Now D-DUGO is in Boston.

What do you think about this, about this move? Brad Stevens' first, well, second big move after trade away Kimba, but his first coaching hire, what do you think? I like it. First of all, we get another black head coach in the NBA. I think that's dope. That's where we're going to start. Secondly, I think it's dope for the NBA and the programs that they put in place for their players.

I was with IMA Udoka at the NBA Top 100 camp probably 13 years ago, I don't know, 14 years ago. And it was a program linked with the NBA Top 100 for high school seniors, a coaching clinic provided by the MBPA, right? So Tony Bennett and Brendan Sore put it on, and they walked us through a bunch of coaching things. We did all kind of stuff that week. EMA was part of that with me. So that's where he got. Luke Walton was part of that. These are guys that are NBA head coaches now.

So that's pretty cool for the NBA and the resources that they try to provide for their players. I think the Celtics have, like Brad Stevens knows his shit. Like whether he was able to ultimately get them over the hump or not, he's a really smart dude. I think he may's going to do a good job, but I think they have a bigger problem.

What's that? And this is just me personally, is their roster. They've got a lot of talent. Like, they've accumulated a lot of talent. Guys are all-stars, burgeon in on superstars in some cases. but you have to have, you have to have quality vets that establish culture. I talk about that all the time.

You got a bunch of really young NBA players trying to teach other younger NBA players how to win and how to be pros and how to conduct themselves. And they haven't conducting themselves poorly, but it's a hard thing to do. Like that's why guys keep around the Udana's Haslums. It's why, you know, Kurt Thomas's and Brian Grants were around. real late into their career. It wasn't because they were still averaging. You need to have those type of people in the building,

and they don't have a lot of those. And look, I watch those games. There's not a clear delineation of roles in Boston. Now, maybe I may could get that figured out. But maybe it's a case of guys that they have there thinking that there's something that they're not. And we talk about this all the time. somebody, somebody has to take a back seat.

You understand what I'm saying? Like, I mean, somebody, and I see guys shooting shots in Boston at times, they just look out of character. Just a casual fan could watch that and be like, yeah, why is he shooting that? Like, that's not, you know, if a casual fan can say, why the fuck would he shoot that? Then you're shooting shots you shouldn't shoot.

And so that's a bigger problem for me in Boston. I hope, and it's funny, I hope it can get figured out. I do agree with you on the roster setup. And overall point of just Boston not being a culture fit for a lot of players. I mean, think about the players that have gone through there and haven't been successful, right? First you'd talk about when Kyrie came, it didn't work out, you know, for whatever reason. It just did not work out. Then you try to double down and try to get Kimba.

That doesn't work out. And then you're left with this group of people that you've drafted who, I mean, you can kind of see why they'd feel some type of way. You could, you know, like when Kyrie went out, Jason Tatum, a rookie, balled out, went toe to toe with Bron. You know, and then you bring all these guys back and they're like, nah, bro, we went to the conference finals without Kyrie. We are who we are. And it was just a natural progression. And I don't think that it helped. It helped in the moment, but it probably hurt them in the grand scheme of things that moment.

So let me ask you a question, because this is where I find, this is where I think Boston finds themselves. I don't know that either Jason Taitam or Jalen Brown right now is ready to win a championship as the number one. I don't know that. I think they could be in a few years. Can you dig what I'm saying? Like I think they're on that track, but I don't know that they can.

So like right now. So if you're Boston, like you just talked about those dudes like being like, what the fuck, man? Like I bawled out. What can you bring in a number one? Or are you taking the approach of like, all right,

Those guys need two or three years. We'll just keep supplementing, you know, with younger talent. Do you understand what I'm saying? Because there's going to have to be a point if you can't as one of those two dudes that you got to accept someone else coming in here that can. Or if you're the Celtics, you got to let them develop, develop, develop, develop until they can and only supplement with pieces that can kind of supplement them. Yeah. We'll see what happens. He has his work cut out for him here, man.

I don't have anything more to say than that, but I do like the, I do like to hire. He's been well respected. And it was, you know, in the ESP report from Wode said that, you know, Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown and Marcus Smart actually strongly recommended Udoca to be hired. Because, you know, they play with him in the Feeble World Cup in 2019. They really like, you know, what he brings to the table. So obviously, he comes in with respect. Let's see if that does something. I don't know. I don't think the subjects by any means are a title contender, but, you know, hopefully this is a good foundation for something in the future.

We're about here to talk about Roger Bell's sons who are up to O in the Western Conference finals. How are you feeling right now? How are you feeling about the Valley of the Sun right now? I'm happy for the Suns, man. I'm happy to be a former son. It looks electric. I remember those environments, man. when we were good and there was something to look forward to and there were hopes and dreams. So like, it's really cool, man. And that's one of the best plays in NBA history, man. Seriously, think about the stage it was on,

like the amount of time that was left. Like, that was, I mean, I know it's new and it's recent and you like to hold older plays from your memory bank in that esteem. But that's one of the best plays. Like, come on. Let me set it up. We're talking about the Alleyoop to Aiden. Also, to end the game, incredible pass by Jay Crowder, incredible pass.

Like, from behind the rim, behind the backboard, you only have a, you have a very small margin of error there. And it's funny because that was one of the plays to Aden where it happened so fast. You kind of didn't know what to think of it, right? Versus the dunk. And you know, dunks at the buzzer are tricky, right? Because you still have your hand on the ball. It's just, it's tricky. then his hands were over the rim.

You don't really know exactly. You see it and you're like, did that really happen? We need a replay. That was definitely a we need a replay play. And it counted. And it was like, oh, my good. Oh, my gosh.

Right. It was electric up in there. I wish you could, I wish you could go back right now like and experience it for like for the next game. I wish if they go to the finals, we need to get Raja back in Phoenix when they go to the finals. We just have to get it back in the building.

Let's start a campaign. Yes, let's do this. hashtag get Roger to Phoenix when we get on here hashtag hashtag that hashtag real ones live from Phoenix hashtag that yeah that's the one

hashtag real ones live from Phoenix let's do that but let's talk about game it was a very game one was a very very very physical game very physical game and it started when Ty Lou put Pat Bev on

Devin Booker as his primary defender and let me just be real Pat Bev beat the shit out of Devin Booker all game long. He just beat his ass. That was the, that was the, the, the, the, I'm going, and I don't, I think we talked earlier about physicality and sometimes with Trey Young and sometimes he just got it, not dirty in a way. I think Pat Bev told that line, as he always does.

That's the type of player that he is, right? He fouled the shit out of Devin Booker all the time and was just like, oh, man, you know, just one of those guys like, oh, did I do that? Oh, oops, excuse me. I'm excuse me yes oh yes I'm here and then it came to a crescendo when they I don't I don't you said he didn't head but uh Devin Booker their heads collided and Devin Booker's nose is probably broken right and what do you think that this physical is too physical for postseason basketball right on par what's going on and you're looking at me like Logan you're fucking stupid what are you talking about what

What are you fucking talking about, man? What are you? What do you mean too physical? This, like, they've tried to strip any physicality of any real meaning out of the game. They've done a good fucking job. Like, these games aren't very physical. But this game was more physical than you normally see. That's Patrick Beverly's job, bro.

Like, his job is to be out there to touch him up, man, to, like make his life difficult. Whatever that means within, within, like, I have six. fouls. By the end of the game, I'm giving you five of them. If I, you know, hopefully they keep you off the foul line. Like, they're not five while you're shooting, but I'm taking them. And I'm hoping that by the end of the game, I've worn you out, or I've frustrated you, or I've done whatever I could do to throw you off to a degree that allows my team to win the game. So I have no problem with that. Now, the headbutt, I don't think it was a headbut. Like, it was just a, they collided. I mean, he went to reach for a ball and Devin Booker went to go at the same time. And, and heads his, it was

It was just too perfect of a situation. It just happened. Okay. It happened. But, you know, I get it. Sons fans are going to say, oh, he headbut him. He did not. He did not. Are you sure you want that invitation to Phoenix, man?

We're trying to get you to Phoenix. We're trying to get us to Phoenix right now. Any Sons fan who knows me knows, like, I keep it a buck, man. I'm still rolling with the Sons, but I don't think he intentionally tried to headbutt that man. So, you know, that's Patrick Beverly's job. And that's what I'm saying you've got to do to Luca. That's what you have to do to do to great. scores, man. Like Jerry, Jerry

Sloan usually say, oh, he wants to play in a fucking tuxedo. Like, we can't let him play in a fucking tuxedo. Like, because that was the, like, that's the way you have to try to affect great scores. If you just give them space and let them do what they do, they're going to eat you up. Now,

whatever Pat Bev was doing was effective, because the man, in part, held hold Devin Booker to five of 16 from the field. I mean, I, it was, it was It was effective. You know what I mean?

Whatever you want to say, it was effective. We got a campaign game. We got a campaign game, 29 points. He balled out. And the thing that I was wondering, and, you know, we got Chris Paul coming back for game three here in L.A. And the thing with the Sons is they have second. There's so much deeper than the Clippers right now in terms of like who they can go to

or scoring options and what they can do with the, with the, is this series with Chris Paul coming back and we don't know the status of Kauai? Is this, this series pretty much over in your eyes? Do you think that this is something that the, what are you thinking right now? Because I just think with the, with the sons, much more deeper team, you got Chris Paul coming back. With the Clippers, only one real bona fide primary score and that is Paul George. Reggie Jackson's been balling. I'm not, I'm not.

I'm not hating on Reggie Jackson. He's been playing his ass off. However, I look down the roster. You got Marcus Morris Senior, three of 11. You have Zubach. Four or five, 14 points.

Other than that, there's really, like there's a Luke Canard double figures, but he only had 10. The primary scoring is coming from Reggie Jackson and Paul George by and large. And that's a lot of pressure to put on those two, especially when you have on the other side of guy

like Chris Paul coming back. What do you think what this series, how do you think this series goes, is going to evolve? I think the sons win this series, but I'm reluctant to say that it's over, Logan. You know, you're going back, you're going back home. You know, it's corny, it's cliche, but some of these guys are going to play better at home. I've got enough of a track record now with T. Lu, he is going to make the adjustments. Again, you talked about campaign having that phenomenal game, not taking anything away from how good he was because he was great. A lot of that existed because you're in that drop coverage again with Zubach and Boogie.

And he's just coming down like Biden time, Biden time. And then he's hitting you with the lefty floater, right? Like you got to clean that up. You have to, you know, what is there an adjustment though for like, you talk about drop coverage? Maybe there's an adjustment for Zubach. But with Boogie right now, man, he has like two flat tires right now. I just don't, I don't know if he can. No, the adjustment may be a personnel adjustment.

just not putting him in the game. Do you understand what I'm saying? The adjustment might be, yeah, you see Lou Kinnard more than you saw more than the 11 minutes he played, or the 19 minutes he played. He had 10 points in 19. You know what I mean? I don't know.

I just know T. Liu makes adjustments. And that was the reason that the campaign was getting buckets. But so for those reasons, I think that the clips have a shot in game three to get game three. If they do not, then I have them getting swept out of the playoffs. But if they get game three, I think we get a series and the sun's still winning. I think the Sun's sweep one in five at the most if Kauai doesn't come back.

Honestly, I think that's what that is. It's been a cool series. I'm really loving the, even though Devin Booker was five of 16 from the field. After that, Noseberg, he made timely shots, man. Like, I really love this. I love this son's team. They do that. Oh, one other thing I wanted to ask you.

we know your favorite person in the world, Scott Foster. Did you see the out of balance call at the end? Oh, the Patrick Beverly hit it out. The Patrick Beverly hit it out, but it's off Devin Booker. Yeah, that's a shit. That's a shit. Like, I get it. Like, I get it.

But the spirit of the rule is, it's not off Devin Booker, man. It was a smart play by Pat Bev because Pat Bev already knew. If you put it to replay, they're going to say it's off Devin Booker. even though, like, if we're, me and you're playing pickup, obviously you're going to win. If me and you're playing pickup and you strip me out of bounds, it's my ball. It's just my ball. You're going to give me the ball. And then strip me again and again and again.

But anyway, I don't like this ruling. How do we, even with replay, how do we get this shit out of the, like, I don't like this. This isn't, it's not, it's not cool. Yeah, I don't know, man. I've wrested with this. First, I mean, that play, that ball. was off of Devin Booker, right? But like if you slow it down to micro seconds of film, it's off of Devinville. But but anyone who hoops knows that that ball's off Patrick Beverly.

Yeah. Right. So, so, right. So like, I don't love that. But once you, you know, once you open Pandora's box, so to speak, with the replay, you open yourself up for all of that. Like, how do, I don't know. What's the answer just to not have replay? I'm fine with no replay. I don't love replay. I can also understand why people like, right? replay. I think also you can have a bit more nuanced though, right? Like, yeah, it came off of Devin Booker. However, you know, like, you know the play. We saw it. That's it. No, you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't do that. Because now you got motherfuckers like Scott Foster and Zach Zorba and all of them refs. Like, you're just going to leave it up to the, like, you're going to go to replay and then grant them the latitude to be

like, ah, nah, but you can't do that. If you're going to use replay, that shit's got to be off of Devin Booker. So this is just unintended consequences. That's just going to have to ride, right? Is this what you're saying? Or you're going to have to get rid of it because I don't think you can have three officials over there and give them the breath to be like, nah, come on, dog. Like, you already know that's, we cannot open up that fucking box.

Yeah. Who wins? Who wins tonight? I got Phoenix. I'm going to take the Sons too, bro. I'm going to take the Sons. You just said that the series isn't over and then was like, I'm going to pick them to win game three. I said if they win game three. The series isn't over, right?

Like, because I could see, you know, I could see those guys playing better and stuff at home. I just don't think Devin Booker has that type of offensive performance again tonight. I'll follow up for you. Will you ever pick against the Sons for the rest of the season? Because you have a. Hell no. No, no.

I will. When they see the Bucks in the finals, there'll be times where I have to pick against the Sucks. When they see the bucks in the final What would the parade be in Phoenix if you guys What is the main thoroughfare? What would you, where do you guys have? What's the, that's a great question.

Let's not, I don't want to ask that question. Let's not do that question because that might take. Don't change. Let's not do it. Let's do it. Let's get to Row one of the week. I'm going first. Rew one of the week is none other than Magic Johnson

because I go, I wake up this morning, like I said, about do the rundown. And I go on Twitter and I see this man lifting weights on a on a yacht on the coast of Greece. Oh, fuck it. I was like, yo, man, like, you're a legend. You're a legend, Magic Johnson. And he was like, I'm on vacation, but I'm still working out.

And I said, go ahead, Magic Johnson. Live your best life, homie. I respect the energy. And then, like, there was another, he was just driving videos from Greece off his yacht. And, you know, there was another one where he was like, he posted a video of, like him off the coast of Greece or somebody posted a video off the coast of Greece. And he is over here like, yeah, you know, you can hear him in the background. Like, yeah, you know, yeah, y'all just come down the night, you know, and I will pick you up and it's all good.

Woo, woo. And he's bringing friends over, like, wow. We need, Roger, we need to find a way to be able to go to vacation with Magic Johnson is all I'm saying. That shit looked amazing. It looked great. Magic isn't phenomenal. I'm watching this man, Curled. He's 35s, 40s right now.

He's in great shape. I see Magic. Do you see magic? A real one of a week, Magic, Johnson. Real one of the week, magic. Man, look at that frigging boat, man. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Okay, well, my real one of the week, I mean, I can't go to anyone else for me. It's, it's Trey Young. Yeah. It's ice Trey. I mean, what he's doing, as frustrated as I can get with the teams for the way they guard him. I mean, it's fantastic to watch. And he makes some tough shots. He's also dropping a ton of dimes.

I think that part of his game gets overlooked so much because of how much he scores the ball, but he really is playing phenomenal. They're great to watch. You know, game seven against the Sixers, game one against the Bucks, Ice Trey's real one. Respect. Man, this is what? Nice little fun episode.

Nice little playoff episode, right, man? Yeah. You guys want to follow more on the Ringer NBA show. Check out the mismatch on Spotify. Also check out group chat. Also check out the answer every Friday. And follow the Ringer NBA on Twitter for all your NBA playoff needs. Also check out Black Girl's songbook with who, Roger Bell.

Town legend, Danielle Smith. Make sure you check out R2C2 with who, Roger Bell. Vallejo legend. They're really close. I feel like I should say the same thing, but Vallejo legend, C.C. Sabathia. Exactly. We're also, we're going to be putting your mad hoopers on our Monday episodes during the playoffs.

So please leave us a voicemail at 510469-0-2-94. And tell us why you're mad. shout out to Lethro Jenkins for giving us to tell us why you're mad to start last podcast, that was fun. We might do multiple ones to start this one, man. So please tell us why you're mad. And somebody said

the last one, I don't know if you listened back to like the fully edited version, Roger, but somebody was like, I guess it was one of our, somebody from Australia was like, to Ben Simmons, shoot the ball, shoot the goddamn ball. I'm out. That was just it. It was 10 seconds

and it was out. It was great. It was awesome. Shout out. Thank you to all our fans, man. We will see you guys on Monday.