The Ringer NBA Show - 'High Upside' — 3-and-D Specialists (Ep. 117)

Episode Date: May 29, 2017

The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor and Jonathan Tjarks discuss the best wing players in the 2017 NBA draft. Topics include: Justin Jackson's upside (8:00), Wesley Iwundu's sleeper status (14:00), the importance of basketball IQ (18:00), the next Malcolm Brogdon (23:00), and the best dark horse wing prospects (28:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Larry Wilmore here, host of the podcast, Larry Wilmore, Black on the Air. Now, in my latest episode, I talked to Senator Bernie Sanders about the state of the Democratic Party and the polarization happening in America and Trump's rise to power. And Trump picked up and he said, you know what, I feel your pain. The establishment is ignoring you. I, of all people, am going to take on the establishment. Well, he lied, of course. Yeah.

But that was his message. So you can hear this episode in full and subscribe to my show by searching for Larry Woolmore. Black on the air on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, mobile, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, welcome to High Upside. I'm your host, Kevin O'Connor, and I'm joined today by the ringer.com's Jonathan Charks. Today we're going to be discussing the 2017 drafts, wings and forwards, 3&D role players and their importance in today's NBA. Charks, what's happening? Nothing much, man. How you doing? I'm doing really well, man. So far with High Upside, we've spent a lot of time thinking about and talking about the elite players, the big names in the draft, like guys like Markell Fulks,

Fultz and Malik Munk and Jonathan Isaac, Filty Frank Nicotine, Lanzo Ball. I think that's what a lot of people spend their time focusing on, just like in the NBA. It's about LeBron and Steph and other guys like that. But the league is made up for the most part of role players, guys who fill responsibilities, enhance the skills of their primary option teammates. And so the guys we're talking about today, the wings, swings, forwards, whatever position designation you want to give them. That's our focus.

So Charks, how do you see teams using these type of kind of filler role players in the NBA and the NBA playoffs? Well, it just seems like you never can have enough of those guys. Like there's always room on your roster for more guys who can shoot threes and switch screens

and guard two or three positions. And it really feels like that's, as like, has been discussed endlessly over the last few years, that's just the way the league is going. You have to have two, three, or four these guys on your roster or in your rotation. Because if you don't, you can't space the floor for your best players and you can't guard anybody. And if you can't do those things, you're not going to want many many games.

Who are some of the guys that kind of stand out to you that do fill that role in this year's NBA playoffs? Oh, I mean, you know, you got guys like, I guess the classic ones. I mean, I'm Boston's full of them. Avery Bradley, Jay Crowder. You got guys like in Cleveland, Amon Shumper, J.R. Smith, kind of. Golden State has like five of them. I mean, San Antonio, Jonathan Simmons and the Spurs.

Jonathan Simmons, Danny Green. All the good teams have multiple guys who can do these things. The thing is, like, historically, these guys come from everywhere in the draft. Like, Bruce Bowen, kind of the original three-and-e guy, was undrafted, which is, you know, hard to believe looking back. And these guys fall in the draft. A lot of them, I think, are hiding and playing sight. And so, like, I think this is represented nicely.

and our big boards on the ringer's 2017 NBA draft guide, which people can view at NBAdraft.com. And you have more traditional big men that other sites have ranked in the mid, mid first round or even like the early first round, kind of behind some of these people that tend to fall in the draft. What's your rationale behind this decision? I just look at it in terms of value positionally. You look at the teams, like Portland's a good example.

They have three first round picks in this year's draft. They have what, like four centers in their roster? Pretty much every team in the league already has multiple centers. And the way this league is played, the game is played right now. You can pretty much only play one at a time. And every once in a while you can play two at a time. But for the most part, you just only two or three of those guys on your roster. So the guys, so A, there's fewer spots for these guys, and there's more of them available.

So just in terms of the value where you can get them in the draft, It's not as like, back in the day it used to be, oh, if a guy six alumni can play, there's always spot from on your team. Well, that's not the case anymore. Unless someone's really, really good, I feel like they're very replaceable as a big man. So I'd rather all things being equal take a wing over a big, unless I really, really like that big man. What do you think? How do you have your board set up? It's similar to yours in the sense that I have a lot of those wings that we're going to discuss.

Like the Devin Robinson's of the world, Wesley I Wund, who's ahead of. some of those big men. The thing that I found fascinating, though, was like, it's not like this conversation is necessarily new. Like, this happens a lot of the time. Like, you look back at last year's draft, some of the guys who slipped. I know everybody on draft night talked about Patrick McCaw, who fell to 38 to the Warriors. You could talk about Malcolm Brogden from the Bucks, who could be this year's rookie in a year. He went 36. Like, some of these guys, they fall every year. Why do you think it is that teams haven't necessarily a judge? to place a higher value on these guys in the 20s range.

I'm not talking like lottery picks, but in that post-laughtery range 15 to 30, it's just kind of unusual how a lot of them haven't shifted up. They're just hiding in plain sight, it seems, every year. Well, I think it's a couple things. The first is that they're being asked to play such a narrow role. I think it's probably easier for these guys to bust out. So, like, if your job in the NBA is to shoot 26-foot catch-and-foot shots

and guard the best players in the league, there's not much prep for that at the college level. The three point line is much shorter. College defense is more team-oriented. You're playing fewer good players. And NBA coaches don't really trust rookies that much. So it's just hard for those guys to get minutes. So it's like, oh, I draft the guy who's not going to play.

And it's like, well, we can always find a guy like that on the street anyways. So let's just wait for the second round to get them. Whereas big men, I feel it's also easier to scout big men because there's fewer good ones, and they're asked to do more, like, a big one plays with a ball in his hands, you get a pretty good feel for what he can do in the NBA, whereas a guy who shoots like four threes off the ball and moves it, it's easy to kind of lose track of him in a college game and what kind of, and what really is valuable at the next level? I mean, what do you look for for you in terms of three and D guys? What are your main kind of criteria you want to see at the college level?

So I wrote an article about this on the Ringer this week just about how these guys are found and how they're found really, throughout the draft. I mean, sometimes a lottery pick can fall back on three in these skills if they don't necessarily reach their potential. And then there's guys who go on drafted where it's like, huh, you know, maybe in a couple years, if he just improves his three a little bit or his defense a little bit, he can't fill that role eventually. So I mean, you do, I think I need to see at least an indication of three-point potential or defensive potential. I prefer when a guy can come in and shoot right away. Like, that's, that's what I care about. about because I think so much of success on the defensive end of the floor has to do with effort.

And I think I think changing someone's three-pointer or improving someone's three-pointer can be a lot harder because of historically just how frequently it doesn't happen. I mean, we talk about so often with guys, if only he improved his three-point or if only improved his three-pointer. But really, sometimes a guy just needs to fall into the right situation to improve defensively. As long as they have like a foundation athletically, rather, I think that they can become a good, plus defensive player. So I do like to see three point potential from a guy early in his career.

Charks, who are some of the guys that, like, we're talking about here? We haven't really given a name to a face yet. Who are some of the people that people should be thinking about? I mean, I think the guy most people are looking at right now first is Justin Jackson at UNC. He's one of those guys. Everyone's always saying, oh, if he could have one to shoot. Well, he shot well this year. He shot seven threes a game at 37%.

He's 6-8-6-9 wing player. He was UNC's main option. If you watched the A&C tournament, you probably saw him. He was their best player on a championship team. And he's probably the most high profile of his quote-unquote three-n-D guys. Then you have guys like Sandarius Thornwell, who went to South Carolina, took him to the Final Four. You have Luke Kinnard, who's more of a pure shooter from Duke. You have Josh Hart, who was one of Villanova's best players two years ago once the national championship game.

and then you have a few more off-the-radar guys like Devin Robinson of Florida, Wesley Lewandu at Kansas State. I guess there's a lot of names. We're still a lot of names that you guys, but those are kind of the bigger ones. There's Terrence Ferguson, who was a high schooler last year with Australia.

So, I mean, there's a lot of guys. It's kind of hard to differentiate them sometimes because there's like seven or eight. These are three-D-ish players floating around the first round. Hey, Tate, I want to get your opinion on Justin Jackson. Yeah. Because Tate, Tate Fraser is Mr. North Carolina Tar Hill, Here at the Ringer,

And that's true. I want Tate, like make the case for Justin Jackson because I think he's just okay. He's just another guy to me. Yeah, I think the big problem with the Justin Jackson thing is that Justin is a guy that everyone thinks is going to play small for it. But I think he's going to play the two guard. He's going to be, we're saying he's three and D, but he's really going to be a shooting guard. So if you look at it like that, you know, Clay Thompson, 6, 7 and said Justin Jackson 6.8, I want him to go to the Bulls. I want him to go to a franchise that actually will.

actually, you know, groom him and make him good, not like the Doc Rivers Clippers thing where you don't play for two years and you hate basketball by the end of it. Like you boy, Reggie Bullock? Yeah, like Reggie Bullock or Bryce Johnson, what he's currently doing there. So I'm hoping Justin goes to like an actual franchise that wants to give him the chance to actually play the two guard and be good because he's already went through it too. Like his confidence was completely shot after last year at the combine and I think he came back from that. So I like that, you know, he's gotten over a hurdle already. that's my selling point on Justin.

Tate, do you buy his jumper improvements 37% this year on nearly 300 attempts? Do you think that's for real, the adjustments he made? He broke Shaman Williams' record for three-pointers in the season. So I do buy it. I've also seen Justin since he was in 11th grade, and I've always thought he had a good jump shot. I've always liked his form.

The main thing with Justin is that he also has the ability to get that little floater off. So it's like the freshman floater, right? in the NBA. He'll be able to get that little shot when he needs to when the jumper's not going in. And he proved in the tournament like he can guard Monk, he can guard Nigel Williams-Goss, he can guard all these guys that are going to be one or two guards in the NBA. And I think that was the biggest thing I was concerned about because when I looked at him, I was like, how is he going to guard Jimmy Butler? How is he going to guard Paul George? How is he going to guard

Yanut San Antonio. Well, he's probably not going to guard those guys. You know, he's going to guard the Malcolm Brogdon's of the world if he's playing the bucks. So I don't know. I think him as a shooting guard is what really translates. I don't like him as a three guy as playing the small forward though. Yeah, that's interesting because he played a lot of four too at UNC. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I think that's what he was trying to prove in the tournament by guarding those guys. I mean, there was a, there was a lot of back and forth behind the scenes where Theo wanted to guard Monk, like Theo Pinsa wanted to guard Monk because Theo was probably the best defender on the team, but Justin was like, no, I'm guarding him, you know? Like he took it

upon himself to basically, it was like to prove that I'm worthy of being a lottery pick. I have to show I can play defense and guard these guys at the one or two because that's what I need to do in the NBA. Do you think he was successful in that, Charks? I mean, he guarded Monk really well. I still worried about his athletic ability, though, as a two. Like, I don't know how like really fast and athletic he really getting down his Stans and Garden. I mean, I guess if he guarded Monk, but I don't know. I still seems more of a backup three than a starting two. We'll see, I guess. I'd say the guy that I like more than Jackson, and I think, I believe you're on the same page with me here, Charks, is Wesley I Wundu from Kansas State. What's your feeling on him and what are

the traits that you like so much about him, Charks? Well, to me, a guy like O'Wundoo, he falls in the category, like if you believe in a shot, because you only shot threes for one year at Kansas State, and he only took two and a half a game. So the shot's a big question mark with him. But if you think he can shoot well enough, he's 6-7-193, 7-foot-1 wingspan. He's an excellent athlete. And I think it's overlooked a lot of these guys is Wendu has a good feel for the game. He was the primary option at Kansas State. He kind of ran point for them a lot.

He moved the ball, found gets the pick and roll. And I think for younger players, you have to convince your coaches to play you, first off. And if your three-point shots not there for a week or two and your defensive stuff, you're doing a defense, you have to be a smart player. You have to have a good feel for the game. You have to make the right passes.

Because if you don't do that, you're not going to get on the floor. And that's what I think of Wendon, do really separates himself from a lot of the more specialized players in this pool. It kind of reminds you of like Jay Crowder a bit. I remember Jay's first year in Dallas. He didn't shoot very well. He struggled athletically at times, but Rick really loved his feel for the game.

How I moved the ball and made their simple play every time. So I have two thoughts on him. I think for one, at the NBA Combine, I thought he was completely overwhelmed athletically. It wasn't necessarily a pretty two-day performance for him. But on the other hand, it's not really the type of structure, that game structure where I would expect him to perform well. I mean, you mentioned his feel for the game, and that's what I love so much about him is. So we're talking about him in the context of a 3-and-D player where he can be your spot-up shooter on offense, fill a little bit of a role,

and then defend multiple positions defensively. I feel confident he's going to be able to do that. But I also think, you know, in terms of feel for the game, he can do more. He shows very, very good passing instincts, passing vision. And I think he's a good ball handler for his size at 6-7 with a 7-1 wingspan. And he can play a little bit of big guard for you, potentially. There's no guarantees because he does need for his skill to translate athletically. He does need to really adjust to the speed of the game, which he did have a hard time doing at the combine.

But with him, he could be potentially down the line one of those 3-D plus guys where he has that skill set to fall. skill set to fall back on if his skills don't necessarily develop the way you would like, but he could also be something more. And I think that's the major appeal with him. And that's why it's kind of surprising where so often I see him ranked on other sites in the mid-second round to the back second round. I just feel like he could be this year's steel where we look back and say, why the hell did he drop that far? Yeah, I mean, a lot of Vitch is where you end up. You go somewhere where a coach will play you or there's a need for your need for your time.

I mean, it's very much guy who slipped through the cracks. Look at Danny Green. He fell out of the league twice before the Spurs kind of gave him a shot. Yeah, yep. And I think that's with all these guys because it'll take them a couple years to get their defensive chops up

to learn the league, to learn everybody's scouting report, because to be accustomed to that three-point for their three-point shot. So it's just going to take time. And I feel like it's kind of hard to project that on some level. A lot of that is just their own,

how much they're willing to work and how smart a player they are more than anything. Just a quick break, John, to get a word from our sponsor. Lately, I've been noticing watch brands getting into this whole minimalist vibe. You know what I'm talking about. Those plastic-looking watches you went out of claw machines at arcades. There's no way that belongs in your wrist. You need a watch that makes a statement for the right reason. And I've found that at vincereocollective.com.

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To me, that's where you really want to watch these guys play. You want to watch a lot of their games. You want to watch, just watch them on the floor, watch how they move, watch their defensive rotations, watch if they can read the floor well. That's where I think a lot of guys can get, you can go on the wrong path with these guys, if you're watching their YouTube clips or just highlights.

Because you'll see the best plays they make. But to me, if anything, I want to see the worst plays they're making. Honestly, games, they go one for 10 for the field, how they adjust their games to the situation around them. it's really that's more anything as just pure feel that's just watching guys play a lot and more I think that's

and like what you were saying you want to watch them a structured 5-on-5 college game that's why I don't worry too much about this NBA Combine stuff what are you looking forward in terms of a guy's feel so I mean I think

the most important thing you know you kind of mention there John is that you do need to watch the games like you can't just pop on a highlight reel to get a sense for his feel and I wrote an article I think before the college season started called how to scout college basketball

and I talked to like some NBA scouts and Mike Schmitz from Draft Express. And one of the things Mike said that's, you know, super important for someone that wants to or get into scouting or just scout for fun, like to scout for their favorite team is spot shadowing. Like just watching the player on the floor and that's it. Like focusing on nothing else. Like that's when you get an idea of the angles he takes on the defensive end when he's trying to run through screens. You can see when he's taking the right angles or the wrong angles. You can see his footwork when he's closing out on shooters that he might have to switch on.

That's where you see things where if somebody else has the ball on offense and you see how he fills space to get open for a three-pointer. And all those things, I think, are a part of feel. Feel is much bigger than that. Like it has to do with what happens when the ball is in your hands too. But it matters a lot what's going to happen how you perform without the ball in your hands because so much in today's NBA offenses has to do with what's happening off the ball. And I think sometimes, like, watching games, that's where the more interesting things are happening. Like, we see that with the Warriors. We're going to see it in the finals.

We see that with the Celtics in the last round we saw that, where there's so much off-ball action happening. That's where these guys need to perform. And that's where feel for the game, basketball IQ and just their ability just to execute plays is super, super important. Sometimes more so than like athleticism or big things that, you know, we talk about. It's their feel and their ability to execute plays. Yeah, absolutely. I think all of us who do this long enough, you kind of watch a great athlete,

you fall in love with his speed and his tools, and then the head for the game is not there, and you kind of get burned on that. And it's always like an intersection, because rarely are you going to find a guy with the elite athletic ability and the elite feel? Dan, you're talking like lottery picks, you know, your best players.

But it feels like with all these guys, they're either better at one or the other. They're thinking the game at a really high level, they're not great athletes, or they're great athletes who need to learn how to learn how to be. who need to learn how to play the game. So, like, for you, who would you say, is, like,

as a great athlete, you want to see, watch them learn more about how to play? Like, you worry about their basketball IQ in this draft. The name that comes right to mind is Devin Robinson from Florida. He's probably, like, the best athlete out of any name we've discussed yet. 6-8-7-1 wingspan. That dude can leap. But the IQ, I mean, he needs to improve there, I'd say. And he needs to prove himself as a more consistent defender,

well. Yeah, for me, the guy is Dwayne Bacon at Florida State. Like, he's a guy at college. He shot like 15, 16 times a game. And like, I love the guy's athletic ability, but will he adjust to playing a more limited role? Can he handle shooting six times a game, moving the ball, not just holding it constantly? And that's a big adjustment, too, for a lot of these guys. Because in the NBA, they won't get very many touches like they did in college. For Bacon, the best case scenario comparisons we have for Dwayne Bacon are Dionne Waiters, Lance Stevenson, Malachi, Richardson, just to give an idea of the type of player he is. But with all those guys, it's like, you know, everybody knows watching him, watching them in the NBA, you think, you know,

if only they did certain things better. And with Bacon, it's very much the same where that dude, like, is a bull. Like, he has a great NBA body. He should be able to, on paper, defend every position. It's just, you don't see that consistently from him. I think, I think sometimes he locks in and you do see that. But that's the frustrating part. And, like, that's the hard part in all of this is there are guys who are going to fall into the second round where they might get drafted into a situation where they don't have a defense first defense first identity and they are asked to defend or they're in a losing situation and when march comes along and everybody's starting to plan their vacations out there's no time for them to really figure out

how to defend and how to do it consistently night in and night out and that's where it's so hard because situation for a lot of these role players, more so than the top guys, is what determines their success. Yeah, that's where I think the D-League is so big, what the Spurs did with Jonathan Simmons. Like, I feel like the D-League should be 100-6-6 wings playing 5-on-5. Like, just constantly guarding each other. That's all it should be, just a wing training school.

Like, play a year, get, like, 500 reps shooting threes, you know, 500 reps switching screens. Like, because there's a lot of these guys. I mean, there's guys we're not even talking about. about who have that basic skill set. Like Jonathan Simmons, I mean, me and you watch a lot of college basketball. I'd never heard the guy's name before he came in the league. Like, there are so many college teams out there as six, four, six five athletes. You can't see them all.

And two good examples of that, guys that you can't see them all. Sterling Brown and Shemi Ojelay from SMU, two guys from the same school. They're forward slash wings players. You and I, I believe we both have Brown ranked in the first round. and he's someone that could maybe go undrafted. I think he's going to end up getting drafted. But there's a chance he does go undrafted. There's a chance he's ended up somebody that they use one of their new two-way contracts on.

You're from Texas, John. What do you like about Sterling Brown? Yeah, I mean, I'm lucky enough. I'm from Dallas, so I've got to watch them play a lot over the last few years. I know some of the SMU coaches. Tate's boy actually is, he does something in SMU. I forget now what it is. And they all love Sterling Brown.

His feel for the game is really high. He's leader of the team, great character. Four-year player, three-year-four-year starter. He's a younger brother of Shannon Brown. Not as an athlete of his older brother, but probably a higher feel for the game. 45% three-point shooter. To me, he's just a really smart player who can stroke the ball, guard two or three positions.

Not a great athlete. There's a lot of Malcolm Brogden. That's the guy everyone's trying to find this year. To me, Sterling Brown is probably the closest Brogden type of anyone in this draft. So I'm really high in him, but I've watched him a lot, so maybe I'm too close to see his flaws. Who's the guy you really like as a 3-Indie guy that's under the radar? So, I mean, we're on the same page with Sterling Brown. The one guy that we're kind of divided on, and this surprises me because of the type of players you tend to like is Shemi-Ojolay from the same school.

I think I prefer him over Brown largely because of his body and his athleticism. I think he'll be able to guard Biggs a little bit better than Brown will be. he might not have the same level of feel, I think, as Brown. But I feel good about his ability defensively. I feel better about him as an at-room finish or attacking closeouts. But I believe you have him kind of in the middle to the end of the second round. What is it about Brown that you're turned off about? I mean, with OJolay, I view him more of as a big who can play a little outside versus a pure wing.

I don't think he has a very high feel for the game. And, like, yeah, he's not a great body. Like, he jumps off. He's one of those guys who could be a great football player. but to me he's more of a big with the little perimeter skills I put him more like in the he's not as about athlete as Caleb Swanigan

or Jonathan Motley but I view him as more of that kind of player versus like a pure two or three you can swing out like to me semi's more of a four or five and I'm not really sure he's going to be much of a perimeter defender despite his he's athletic

but I'm not sure if I really buy him as a perimeter defender I guess that's why I'm a little lower than you how about his age transferred from Duke 22 already does that play into it at all or do you just like that forget age, you know, overrated age is just a number. I mean, I'm not R. Kelly or anything. Age is important.

But, yeah, I mean, I guess to me, I have always to use sem. He's more of a big than a wing. And I didn't feel his feel for the game as really high at all. I thought he took a lot of really bad shots at SMU. He didn't, to me, I don't know, I just never really, he's one of those guys. I feel like the more you watch semi, the more you kind of come away, leaving not that impressed with him. Like, you watched him once, this guy could be a great.

player but the more I watch him I just don't feel his feel is that high I guess his part I feel like he's more of a big you can shoot threes and yeah I must not really to me I'd like take a chance on a guy like josh heart or even or even uh or cindarius thornwell like I'd rather have cindaria stormwell than semi-ogelly and they're kind of the same spot in the NBA thornewell's 6 5-215-15 but he's faster he's more primitive oriented and rather have that kind of player for some more of a big who plays outside if that makes sense. I'd rather regard who plays inside than a big who plays outside.

You know, I think there have been guys where, you know, we do look at their feel and they end up improving over time. There are certain traits that you see that may indicate the ability to improve feel. Because I tend to think

it's a hard thing to improve. I think a lot of the times you either have feel for the game or you don't. Are there things that you look for that might indicate an ability to improve that? No, I think you're,

it's like thinking the game. So, I mean, I guess the biggest thing is just growth over time in college. Like are they working out in the gym? Are there, is the game slowing down for them? Assists of turnover ratio is like getting better over time? Are they making better decisions they made the year before is probably the biggest thing? And there's a other end of the spectrum got Terrence Ferguson.

How do you evaluate him? We're given his very limited track record and he barely played at Australia last year. Like what do you think about? He feels like I have a huge range of outcomes in this draft. He is tough to evaluate, A, because of limited exposure, and B, just because of the type of prospect he is. I mean, he's an incredible athlete. Part of me doesn't even look at him into that 3-and-D role.

I think maybe to start his career, that's where he is, and that's where you want him to be. You want him to turn into that 3-&D player. The thing is with him is I think he also could potentially have higher-ups, higher-up side or potentially not even reach a 3-&E level, because you look at him and he is a super inconsistent shooter. Like his mechanics fall apart a lot, especially off the dribble. And defensively, you know, I think he'll be fine.

But I think a lot of the times, I mean, he's only just turned 19, really. With him, I think a lot of it's going to be effort. It's going to be a situation. I hope for Ferguson, he falls into a good situation where he's able to be molded, whether even if it's time in the G League or if it's coming off a team's bench, but a team with a defensive identity. We have him for the bucks in our mock draft on NBA. Theringer.com,

and I think that would be a great spot for him to A-Learn and get experience at the same time. Yeah, to me, I just wonder, it's a weird, like, mixed with him. What if he had gone to Arizona? Would he be seen as Kobe Simmons? Like, they're pretty similar athletically, and Simmons had kind of up and down year to Arizona.

He's really fallen a lot in the draft. Ferguson basically hit out all year in Australia. A few people watched him play. He had a really small role in an Australian team. So it's kind of like how do you balance that? Because maybe there's some upside there. There's a lot of downside too possible. We're not really taking into account.

So with Ferguson, he's probably going to be a first rounder. I think we would expect that to happen. But a lot of these guys can be found outside the draft. And this year is unique in the sense that it's the first year where every team has two-way contracts. And those will allow teams to send guys to the G-League, but also have them like at their rights on their roster. So it's really a three-round draft this year.

It's three rounds and 90 picks. It's just the last round is going to be kind of a, I think, the wild wild west in that sense where it's going to be hard to predict where guys are going to go. But there are guys that stand out. I think this year's deep with deep sleepers. Who are some guys that you like sharks that may probably not get drafted, but you think either should or that you're looking forward to seeing how they develop over the next couple of years?

I think I put them into two camps like you're really home run guy. Home run guys is like Kobe Simmons. I'm surprised he's not going to, he's not being seen as drafted. Because he's that a crazy good athlete. He just kind of. He might get drafted. I think there's a chance. Yeah, I mean, I'd be surprised.

Like, he's a guy out trying to spend two years in the G League. But maybe he becomes, if he stayed in school for two years, maybe he's a first round pick. Because he's got the outlines of a very interesting player. So that's to one end of the spectrum. On the other end, you have a guy, I think two kind of more off the rear of three endee guys. Peter Jock at Iowa and Reggie Upshot, Middle Tennessee.

State. Like these are kind of guys I was talking about. There's just so many 6-5-66 can kind of Jock can only shoot threes. I'm surprised Jock hasn't gotten more more love actually. Upshaw's upshot's a guy, middle Tennessee state. They want a tournament game the last two years. You watch him plays like he's an NBA athlete with a decent shot and good size. So who knows? What about you, Kevin? Who do you like as a sleeper? So I like Jock as a sleeper. I do worry about his defense, but that dude can stroke three. That guy can really shoot the ball. And anytime you have that, I think you have a lot of appeal. He'd be near the top of my undrafted list if I'm really seeking out a potential sharpshooter.

Two sleepers for me. Davon Reed from Miami. He's not a sleeper on my board and the NBA draft guide. I have him in the low 30s. I really like Reed, but he might go undrafted because he's a senior, 22 years old. But I love his game. I think he's. I think he's a safe bet to be a 3D player. Like his shooting mechanics, he can shoot from NBA range. He can shoot a little bit off the dribble too. He's a hard-nosed defender. Like that guy, I don't think it's going to be any issues at all, him accepting his role

and being willing to take on that responsibility. And then one of the other guys, kind of way more of a deep sleeper than him, is Jalen Moore from Utah State. I don't know if he's necessarily going to fit into that wing category. He's a little bigger at 6'9, but that dude can really play. I mean, I think he might need to get over some problems athletically, kind of like with Peter Jock. But I think the ability is there for him to be a 3-and-D player down the line. He's got a good stroke, good size.

I think you can at least project defensive ability. So he's someone that I'm looking forward to seeing where he goes. And wherever he goes, he's kind of like this year's DeAndre Bembri. He's got a beautiful afro. So he's going to stand out wherever he goes and people are going to definitely be, I think, keeping eyes on him. Well, you've out-hypstered me, Kevin. I've never heard of this guy, so I'll check him out. That's it for this week's High Upside.

Thank you, Jonathan, as always, for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me on. And thank you so much for listening to us. Please give the Ringer NBA show a rating on iTunes, wherever you listen to the podcast, and shout out to Tate Frazier for producing High Upside and to the band Oso Oso for providing our music. You can follow us all on Twitter,

at Ringer, at Kevin O'Connor NBA, at Jonathan Charks, and at Tate Frazier. Enjoy the NBA Finals. Puce out. You know,