The Ringer NBA Show - 'High Upside' — International Prospects (Ep. 124)

Episode Date: June 13, 2017

The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor and Jonathan Tjarks look at the international prospects in their top 60 for the NBA draft. They discuss 'Filthy' Frank Ntilikina (2:02), Jonah Bolden (9:15), and Anzejs Pasecniks (14:08). Then, they talk about the most recent prospects to drop out of the draft (17:45) and finish up with two more prospect profiles (20:06). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Best of all, our listeners get a $20 rebate off their first Seatgeek purchase. To get your $20 rebate on tickets, download the Seatgeek app, go to the Settings tab, and click add a promo code. Enter promo code Ringer NBA. Seat Geek will send you $20 after you've made your first ticket purchase. Download the Seatkeek app and enter promo code Ringer NBA today. On to High Upside. Hey there, welcome to High Upside, the Ringer's weekly 2017 NBA draft podcast. I'm Kevin O'Connor, and I'm joined today by my Ringer teammate at theringer.com.

Jonathan Charks. Yo, John, what's up? Nothing much, man. Finals are wrapping up. Draft's almost here. Oh, man, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to it. And today we're going to be discussing the international draft prospects that are in our top 60 on the Ringer's 27th.

NBA draft guide, which you can find at NBA draft. Dot the ringer.com. We're going to be updating that this week once the early entry deadline passes. There are quite a lot of international prospects this year. Maybe not so much in the lottery, but these guys are still important. You're going to keep in mind that one quarter, 25% of the NBA is made up of international players. So let's kick this off with the big name who's going to be a lottery pick. Frank Neely Keena.

He's an 18-year-old point guard from Belgium who played this past season in the French Pro A league. and Nilly Keen is 6'5, long wingspan, and his nickname is Filty Frank, because he is absolutely filthy on defense. Frank has ranked 9th on my board, and he's 14th on Jonathan's. John, please give our listeners the spiel on Frank. Yeah, so Frank's French guy played in the French major leagues. I think he's pretty much a role player on his club team, where he really made his name for himself on the international circuit. I think it was the European Championships this year, the under 18s. He was the MVP, led France to a gold medal, 6-5, he ran point, big guard, long arms, can guard multiple positions, runs a team, very smart player, knockdown three-point shooter, and a very small sample size, but it looked pretty good shooting it.

And that's kind of, I guess, like the broad overview of Frank. What's your take on him? I like him a lot. I've been a little bit up and down. I don't want to say up and down. I guess I was up, and then I've kind of just really eased him into his positioning. I had him ranked fourth when we had our first big board way back in December. And he's kind of hovered in the 8, 9, 10 range for me ever since then, and I have him at 9 now.

So, look, there's a lot to like. I think we had a good conversation on Nilly Kina a couple weeks back when we had our point guard podcast, and we talked about how he's a little bit slow in terms of movement. But at the same time, what I really like about him is despite the fact he's not the speediest guy, he's got great feel and I think he has great body control and I think he has really good passing vision so for him he's only 18 he'll be 19 before the season I think you're getting a project whatever team drafts him but long term he has some of the things that you can't teach in terms of passing vision passing ability passing instincts he's excellent defensively I mentioned off the top filthy frank the nickname is appropriate as you'll see when you see him play because that dude can defend points he can defend twos probably defense some threes too and maybe if a team is even playing really really really small you can put him against bigger guys too he has a defensive mindset and that's what i really like most about him well yeah i mean as he gains weight you can use him in a switch heavy system for sure like if he guards a four for a second

it's okay as he gets stronger he definitely has to put on a lot of weight do you think he'll play in a d league next year i don't know i mean that depends so much on situation uh i mean there could be some team that has a bunch of point guard depth and they just took the best best player available and then he's forced to play in the G League, but there's always a chance that he could be playing heavy minutes. I mean, it's really hard to predict. John, one thing I'm curious about is, you know, we both dropped him on our boards over the course of the season.

Like I said, I had him at 4th. I believe you had him ranked fairly high as well in December. But so over the last six months for you, what part of your evaluation made this kind of relatively mysterious prospect start so high, then kind of slide back down to 14 for you where he is now? Well, I think it's more, it's just falling in love with other players. Because Frank is so steady. He's like, I don't really see him as like at the upside of an all-star.

So as you get closer to the draft, you watch more film on guys. And you just kind of fall in love with them, kind of higher. I know for me, like the higher upside guys, it's hard not to like get excited about them. So for me, Frank, my evaluations kind of stayed the same. It's just other guys have kind of jumped him, if that makes sense. And I think to me, I really, I think we talked about this in the left first pod. But to me, Frank is really a two guard who can run point. I mean, these days with the way the league is,

it doesn't really matter. But I love to see Frank play with a second point guard who can attack the rim and let Frank attack closeouts. I think that's where he'd be at his best. For what reason do you view him as more of a two than a one? Well, to me, I want my one to be as fast as possible. I want my one to get in the lane. And I think back in the day, you wanted more size or a position.

But to me, if you have a guy with two sides, you can play one, you really get more value playing him at two and have two ones on the floor than playing him at one with a guy who can't really create it two. See, I just think, look, I agree with you that he's obviously not the fastest dude. Like anybody watching him play will know that. He's a little bit slow out there. But the thing is that I just think his passing instincts are so good for his age. And I think it's the type of thing where you look at some of the top point guards in the NBA, not all of them are speedsters. Like not all of them are explosive of like Derek Rose or like even Kyrie Irving's a below the rim guy, but he's fast.

James Hardin is a below the rim guy and he's really not so fast. There's different types of point guard. Stefan Curry, not the most explosive guy, not even the quickest guy. So with Frank, I think he does have point guard traits. More than anything else for me, it depends so much on how his handle develops. He's really loosey goosey out there now. Even more so than I think his first step or his speed, it's his handle. Because I think his passing ability will be fine.

I think he does have those traits to be able to develop and handle the primary responsibility. The thing is, to your point, so many teams are running multiple ball handler systems where I don't know if it's necessarily important that he is that guy if he's drafted into a system that doesn't ask him to be. Does that make any sense? No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think with all these kind of guys, where they end up going. And I think for me, where Frank gets really interesting is number eight to New York. because in my mind, I think you can kind of tell if the Knicks draft Frank,

I think it says we still believe in the triangle because Frank is really a triangle point guard. He's a big guy, he can shoot, he can guard, he can play off the ball. I think if the Knicks draft like Dennis Smith that tells you they want a faster guy run spread pick and roll. But if Frank goes eight,

I think Frank go eight to New York or nine of Dallas is my guess. So in the past, you have said that you hope that the Knicks take Frank Nilly Kina at eight so Dennis Smith can be at nine, but let's say they don't. Let's say they do go with Smith at eight. Mark Cuban met with Filthy Frank this past week after one of his games. Do you like the potential fit in number nine for Frank? I mean, he definitely fits there because Rick Carlisle likes to run two ball handler offenses,

and then Frank lets you play two-point guard, we're still guarding at two. I think if the Mavs got Frank at nine, it becomes Seth Curry's team. And I like Seth. I don't know. That's, it's Alice, man. Not all Boston. We don't get to have, you know, three or four all-stars coming to our team every year. I don't know, man.

I don't know if he necessarily be the guy. Maybe for this season. That's what I'm saying. Okay. So with Frank, one of the youngest players in this draft, philosophically, I get the impression that maybe you don't, you don't value his defensive ability quite as much as you do, perhaps, at other positions. Because I know we've talked a lot about how much defensive versatility matters.

To you, does point guard defense not matter as much? because there's a lot of people out there who think, nah, you know, whatever. You know, point cards are going to score. They're going to get theirs. It doesn't really matter how great perimeter point guard defense is. I mean, it's important, but I feel like the point guard, it's your point of attack on offense more than anything. You've got to be able to get to the rim, get everybody else.

And, of course, it depends on your fit. If it's not going to be frank, it's got to be somebody else getting to the rim, if it's not going to be him. So one of the most underrated players in this drafts, kind of in my opinion, I think in Charks, based on our rankings, is Jonah Bolden. Charks, you're writing a big piece on him. Tell us, tell the listeners a little bit his story going from UCLA to the Adriatic League and where he is now in the draft.

Okay, so he was an Australian guy. He came over three years ago, went to UCLA, and eligible for a year. He has a bad freshman year. He doesn't really fit with the team. They had no point guard. They had Bryce Alpha running point. He decides, instead of transferring schools, he decides to go pro and he goes over to Belgrade in the Adriatic League. And he kind of becomes like a different player overseas.

He won the young player of the Year Award in the Adriatic League, which is last few years have been guys like Ante Zizich, the Celtics first round pick, and Dario Sarich. And Yokic. Oh, and Yokic. Yeah, I mean, and he had a great season at Belgrade. He's 610, 2.30, really long arms. He can just do everything.

I really love multi-dimensional like 6-8-69 guys. And that's Bolden. He can shoot, handle, gar. a little bit, pass a little bit, rebound block shots. He's just a very, very versatile player. And I think if he had stayed in the U.S. and had a good year as good as he had this year, he'd be seen as a much higher ranked prospect, in my opinion.

I agree with you completely that if he had played, you know, the season at UCLA next to Lonzo Ball and he was getting buckets from him, we'd be talking probably about Bolden as a lottery pick. And I believe you did move him up into the lottery in your latest big board at 14, a kind of a dramatic rise for him this season. I think really he will be the guy that goes higher in the draft that a lot of people think. You look at boards, different websites. A lot of people have him either in the late 20s or the 30s or even the 40s,

but I think this guy will end up going in the teens. I just have a hunch that a team will fall in love with him for all the reasons you stated because those traits are so important in today's NBA. And when you look at his weaknesses, they're really not pressing issues. There are things that, they're weaknesses when he has a feature role, but as he eases into the NBA, he's not going to be asked to drive to the rim. He's not going to be asked to handle the ball constantly. He's not going to be asked to do all these things.

So he's going to be put into a situation, I would assume, where his strengths are featured. And I think he's somebody that can make an impact pretty early in his career. Yeah, I think we're both pretty high. And my guess is he has a pro day, I think it's on next Saturday in L.A. and that'll be the first chance a lot of the decision makers get to see him. He had a bad year at UCLA.

I think he'd have to bat his people's mouths. But once he comes here, people get to see him up close in person. I bet he starts going up big boards and mock drafts pretty fast by next week. How high do you have his potential, John? I mean, do you think he can become really a top 25 player or where do you think

his potential realistically maxes out? I don't know. It's hard. I don't really think in those terms. I think he can be a high-level start. at a four, four or five position. I think he can, I think he could be a starting four in a championship team, if that makes sense. I don't know if he'll be an all-star.

That's a really good player. But I think he's going to be a very good NBA player. I think he's a pretty high floor too because of his feel for the game, his athletic ability. I mean, there's not many guys who can shoot 40% from three and then catch lobs at the rim. Like, that combination always intrigues me is the athletic ability plus the shooting plus the feel. Another nice thing about him, Jonah Bolden, is a lot of, I think, those more traditional threes that are shifted up to the four in today's league. A lot of them can't rebound, but Bolden's quite a good rebounder. So I don't think you lose a lot in that sense

when you do shift them up to the four. And so that's kind of a really nice bonus for me when I evaluate him because with so many of these guys, they just can't rebound. And Bolden won't have those issues. He can switch defensively, but he's not going to kill you on the boards either. Yeah, it's funny. I was talking to him. I interviewed him for the story over the weekend. And he was saying at UCLA, he always wanted to play the three, as coaches were going to play the four. And now as it turns out, it doesn't even matter because threes are playing fours anyways. So he kind of was like a year ahead of the curve there. It seems like I think back to certain prospects, whether it's a point card position or the way the forwards have evolved.

And there's so many guys that I think if they just came in the league a little bit later, I know Shay Serrano from the ringer had a line. He said when we met last August, a better birthday. If some of these guys had a better birthday, I think they would have been able to find success in the NBA. If Jolail Lokofor came out 10 years ago, he probably would have been a star. If Jonah Bolden came out 10 years ago, perhaps people would have viewed him as a tweener, and he wouldn't even be getting talked about as a first-round draft pick. So it's funny to me how the league's evolution has allowed some of these more versatile guys

to find super important roles, whereas in the past, we'd be saying, well, what's his real positioning? Yeah, absolutely. There's no question about that. Let's get to our Captain Morgan moment of the week, focusing a big, Big Man Proskwkak, Assez, Pasikniks, a 7-foot-tube Latvian big man who had people, I talked to, raving about his pro day last week. He's big, he's mobile, he's a high flyer, he can shoot it too. There's a lot to like about him. Draft Express posted a video on Twitter from the workout that showed him throwing down

explosive dunks and then running out to the corner and hitting threes. Anzaz was so damn good. I hope somebody got this guy a drink a nice cold Captain Morgan. and my really good buddy Eric Weiss, who owns a sports psychology company called Sports Aptitude was at this workout, and he hit me up last week, raving about him, basically said everything I just said to you, that this dude can do a lot of things for you in today's NBA, which is important for a big man. You can't not space the floor.

You have to be able to shoot threes at least a little bit, and you've got to be mobile. You need to be able to offend on the perimeter, and that's what I think makes him such an intriguing first round prospect. Charks, what do you think? he's definitely an interesting guy for a seven foot he's seven foot three or seven foot two i guess doesn't really matter these latfians man they're just super tall over there for some reason a little extra height and those in the jeans over there do you think do you think he defends do you think he's mobile enough um see i don't know i think like for a seven three guy he's immobile but do i really want

a seven three guy garden three point line i'm a little dubious i don't think he's as fast as chris taps for example i think chris daps is definitely faster than him and what works about Peschnik is that he didn't block a lot of shots last year in Spain. For a guy as big as he was, it was like 1.5 blocks per 40 minutes, just pretty average for a center. So he doesn't always, he can definitely finish. He's big for his size. I'm just not totally there.

He might a little bit, I think, kind of trap between two worlds. That makes sense. He's not totally a traditional five, but I'm not sure he's quite skilled enough to be a perimeter five either. So I think that's kind of where my concern lies. on the defensive end of the floor. He's not quite a shot blocker. You see 7-2, 7-3, and you're like,

oh, this guy's going to be our rim protector. And, well, yeah, sure. He's going to be asked to do that, but he's not necessarily going to be a shot blocker. He's going to have to be more of a positional defender who alters shots. And that's valuable. I mean, that's fine if that's what he becomes. But really, you know, where the intrigue is, is offensively.

I mean, he's going to be a rim runner. He's going to be able to throw down lobs. There's no question about that. You're going to be able to put him in the high pick and roll, and he's going to have no trouble. throwing down lobs for you. He's skilled. You can put the ball on the floor a little bit. So if you get him on the short roll, he can finish the drive to the rim. I like that about him a lot. And plus, look, so on the draft guide, I have a note on there that says he'll need to speed up his mechanics

to become an effective shooter. And that's true. Like, he's got really slow mechanics that remind me not quite as much as Amir Johnson, who has a very slow windup, but it's slow. And that's true that he will need to speed up his mechanics. But the fact is that he can shoot from the outside. And I think he'll be enough of a threat where because of his mobility and because of his ball handling ability, he's going to be a threat to space that floor and attack closeouts. And if you don't close out on him,

he's going to be able to hit the three when he has time to wind up. So really, look, I agree with your chalks that defensively, there are some questions. I think that's why you have him ranked 30th on our update. And I'm just a little bit higher on him. I have him kind of in the 18, 19, maybe a low 20s range. I think he just sold me on him. I might move him back up.

Okay, that was Captain Morgan's moment of the week. No matter how you live like a captain, Captain Morgan reminds you to please drink responsibly. Captain's orders. On to some news. As of recording this podcast at 2 p.m. Pacific time, two notable prospects have dropped out of the 2017 NBA draft before the early entry deadline. The big name is Rodeon's courage, a 19-year-old forward from Latvia. I had him ranked in my top 20. on the ringer draft guide.

It's really, really surprising that he dropped out. Everything I heard of that he was probably going to be a late first round draft pick. However, you know, I'm sure that he probably is going back for a year and then going to try again an 18 or 19, and maybe then he could even be a lottery pick. So it's an interesting move for him, but I can understand why, because he has a lot of potential. The other name is Arnoldus Kolboka. He's another forward from Lithuania. Cabolka is super raw, not at all surprising that he dropped out.

long term you know versatile player that can stroke threes i like him um i think another guy where next year and next year's draft we could see his name slip into the first round so a good move for him very very surprising that courage dropped out but um with colboka solid move good decision it'll be interesting to see what happens with those guys jonathan jean uh maybe my favorite sleeper prospect in this year's draft uh was diagnosed with marfan syndrome at the nba combine it's a heart condition that will likely have him go undrafted this year, likely will sideline him from playing basketball for the foreseeable future.

Isaiah Austin a couple years ago was diagnosed with the same condition. When undrafted, he's back playing basketball. He started playing again December 2016. For John, unfortunately, for someone who I think was rising, maybe even a mid-first round draft picked, his dream is going to have to wait for the NBA. John, do you have any reaction to Jonathan John's unfortunate condition?

It's just a real bummer, you know. I think Isaiah is the same thing. Very skilled, big, blocking shots. It's just, from what I, from what I've heard is the NBA won't let somebody with Marf fans play in the league. That's just what I've heard. And so his health actually isn't bad. It's just they feel like this condition is just not a good idea to have in the court.

Kind of like Chris Bosch a little bit. But he can play overseas because Isaiah is playing overseas. So I'm sure he'll have a long career playing overseas. It's just unfortunate what happened with that. Yeah, I mean, all you can really hope for is, for him he has, you know, able to continue playing and doing what he loves because that dude's talented and everything I hear about him

is he's a super, super high character kid. Two other big men in this year's draft projected to go maybe in the early second round, maybe even in the first round that one of them neither of us are high on at all. It's Isaiah Hartenstein. Big man,

played from Germany, seven foot one, seven foot two wingspaned. I'm not a fan. I don't see it. I don't see it at all, He's getting first-round hype. I've seen him ranked in the lottery some places. He's first-round. Most places I've looked at, I haven't ranked 42nd on my board.

I just don't see it. I see a David Lee-type player out there. What about you? Well, with Hardenstein, so I get why he's ranked high on paper because he's big. He's theoretically a shooter. He's theoretically reasonably athletic. But to me, you just watch him play, A, he looks so unathletic part of it.

His posture is terrible. And his jumper, his jumper looks really bad too. Looks like he's playing video games eight hours a day. And I shouldn't talk. I've had those days. I shouldn't be talking. He looks like a ringer staff fighter out there. He's terrible.

I shouldn't be talking. We shouldn't be. But the other thing, too, is like, if you go to Synergy, he's in the 10th percentile as a jump shooter. Like, it's supposed to be a stretchy big. He really doesn't shoot very well. He shoots a lot, takes a lot of shots, but he don't make them very much. And that's obviously a concern.

I was talking to another draft analyst. I don't want to say his name in case he doesn't want me to, but he said the same exact word as your charts that Hartnstein is a theoretical player. You look at him and you're like, well, you know, he can handle the ball. He looks good when he shoots it. You know, he can pass a little bit.

Theoretically, he could be really good. But, you know, he's just not. He's young, so at a second round, why not take it? Yeah, theoretically, he could be good. I just don't know if I'd want to invest the first round draft picking him and I think that's what you're going to have to do I think he's going to end up going first round

and I'd be happy to take him in the middle of the second round totally cool with it but first round no I just I'm not willing to invest well I mean to me a lot of it too it's just who's going to be there like if you're taking him over someone

like Tony Bradley or Peschnix that doesn't make much sense to me in terms of if you're gambling on bigs there's a lot of bigs I'd rather gamble on I mean he could be a good player I just I trust some big He could have had of him. That's what I would never say never.

I mean, he could be. I just think I'd let him, I'd let somebody else take the risk of him. One guy I like that you don't like is Matthias LeSort. Big man played in France. Six foot nine, 250. Dude is a bulldozer. Great athlete. Throw down lob dunks.

We have him as a comparison to Montrez-Harrell, Kenneth Farid and Ed Davis and the draft guide. just to give you an idea of the type of player he is. I like him. You don't. Why are we on different ends of the spectrum with Matisse? I guess give me your take. I guess you just did.

For me, like, I don't really just have BAM at that point. I just don't feel, I feel like he could be a decent big. It's just there are bigs you can block shots better than him. There are bligs you can guard better than him. I mean,

I'd rather have BAM too, though. So, like, I have him ranked like in the 30th, and you have him 30-ish range, whatever it is, and you have him 53 on the list you sent me. So, like, that's a 20 spot difference. I think, you know, at that point in the draft,

there's not quite as much separation between some guys, but that's a pretty big difference. I think it's philosophical for me. I just don't really value bigs who don't protect the rim or shoot or pass. I mean, I think he can be a, like, Terry could be Taree Black maybe. I just feel like those kind of guys are available late second undrafted. You don't want to need to expend a high pick or even a reasonably pick on them. That's all.

I'm not even going to argue that. because all those things are true. He's not a great passer, not a great ball handler. I think with him, like, it's more or less systematic fit. You plug him into the Rockets, into the Montres-Herald role. I think he can do that for you. I think he can be that five that rumbles down the lane, throws down lob dunks, and he's versatile defensively from what I think from watching him. I think he can switch screens and protect the room a little bit, maybe better than, than you think. But that's, look, I think with him, it's all a matter of role in situations. I just don't see how he could be drafted into a situation that tries to make him into something that he's not.

Yeah, I mean, with all these guys, there's just, maybe we'll do it from pop, like, there's just so many bigs after like 20 that someone just tend to fall in. Because there's just so many bigs in a league where bigs are becoming less and less used. This is a very big, heavy draft. So it's interesting to see how it plays out in terms of where guys go. I'm just counting right now, currently on our mock draft on Monday, June 12th. we have one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fourteen fourteen fourteen big men between seventeen and forty one yes some of them are going to fall there's a lot of big men they're going to fall and they could fall far depending on what

teams how teams view these wings and fours we've talked so much about the sterling browns of the world the costia muschiti's of the world depending on how teams value those dudes or some of the point guards that are going to go in the second round, these bigs could really have a free fall. All right, that's it for this week's high upside. John, thank you. Thanks as always, man.

Have a good one. You as well. And thank you so much for listening to High Upside. Please give us a rating on iTunes wherever you listen to a podcast if you like the show. You can follow me on Twitter at Kevin O'Connor NBA. You can follow Jonathan at Jonathan Charks. And be sure to follow the ringer on all social media platforms

so you can keep up with our draft coverage, NBA finals coverage, and our free agency coming up. It's coming up soon. It's going to be fun. Thank you for listening. Peace out.