The Ringer NBA Show - 'High Upside' — Lottery Reaction (Ep. 112)

Episode Date: May 17, 2017

The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor and Jonathan Tjarks give their initial reaction to the NBA draft lottery and discuss Boston's big night (5:00), potential Celtics chemistry issues (10:00), Josh Jackson's fit in Philly (17:00), the best players outside of the top three (21:00), the battle for point guards between Dallas and New York (26:00), a wide range of outcomes for Lauri Markkanen (31:00), and the biggest late-lottery sleepers (34:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's high upside. I'm your host, Kevin O'Connor, and I'm joined by the ringer.com staff writer, Jonathan Sharks, as I will be every week leading up to the NBA draft on June 22nd. John, what's up, man? Nothing too much. I guess you're pretty peppy. Yeah, man, I'm feeling good. The NBA draft lottery is always fun. I love the nerves.

I love the excitement. I love seeing Mark Tatum just pull team logos out of cards. It's exciting. It's very awkward, but it's fun. Yeah, it is exciting. It was fun. No doubt about that. I guess my first question for you is how confident were you the Lakers would not lose their pick on a scale of 1 to 10?

About a 1, a 1. I had a good feeling that the Lakers were going to end up hanging on to that pick. So let's start with them. Let's start with what do they do in that number two spun? I know everybody will assume it's Lanzel ball, but what do you think that they should do with the position that they're in with the second pick in the draft? They have an opportunity maybe to flip that pick for a guy like Paul George or that they could wait a year and try. try to get Georgia free agency. What side of the fence do you fall in with what direction that they should go?

I don't think that's really on beyond the table, is my guess. My guess Indiana wouldn't do that trade anyways. Because Indiana looks out of like we have a franchise player where Indiana, will the balls we happen in Indiana? Like that's the other thing too. If you're Indiana, could you really sell LeVar Ball in Indianapolis? And could you sell him as a K. You don't have to draft Lonzo.

You could draft Jason Tagan or Jackson or anybody. that's quite a drop-off from Paul George I wouldn't do I mean my guess is the other Russell and you know another future pick

and other assets I mean it was all agreed a long time ago like the leg the second pick they'll draft Lonzo ball like it's all set in stone

there's not much you know what's his name Tatum and Adam Silver and Magic talking about this weeks ago so they really can't trade the pick anyways in my opinion

so you know just to run through you know what what actually changed picks 9 through 14 stay the same. So the top eight in the draft is Celtics, Lakers, Sixers, sons, kings, magic, wolves, nicks. So that's your top eight right there. I think the interesting factor for me with the Lakers is the fact that they're not in that pole position. So theoretically, the Celtics could top any offer that the Lakers can make anyway if Indiana, what they're asking for

is the best available offer. If they're not more worried about trading George out west, for example. And the Celtics would also have to be confident that they can resign Paul George, too, because all indications are everything you've read about from various sources online is kind of aligns with what I've heard, that Paul George probably does want to go to the Lakers once he hits free agency. But the thing is, and this is where my perspective for the Lakers is that right now, that's the case. If he were to go to the Celtics, a winning organization where he can make another run at the Easter Cormons finals or any other surprise team for that matter, maybe suddenly that our problem. opportunity to sign George goes away. And that's the guy who can really accelerate the Lakers rebuild.

So you seem to think that like they should kind of take that risk anyway because they can get their pick and they could still potentially sign their guy. Because I get the impression that you think Indiana should hold on anyway. Well like I just look out of like first off would George really, how much more would they be with Paul George and a bunch of young guys? Like are they a playoff team with George Ingram and Jordan Clarkson and Timothy Moscott in the world dang? No, but but they still They could still have one star in the biggest basketball city maybe on the planet with cap space in the near future. I think that they would still be, they would make themselves more of a destination while still having some young pieces on the roster, depending on what they give. I don't think the Lakers should give everything on their roster.

I don't think that they should give to and Ingram and Russell. That would be, I think, ridiculous to sell the farm like that. But at the same time, you know, if you're the Indiana Pacers and you're looking at the Celtics and the Lakers, two franchises that are trying to make the jump. Celtics are trying to make the leap from, you know, East Finals contender to actual finals contender. And Lakers are trying to get back to the level that they have been at for quite many years over their history. So, and not only that, the Lakers have a young front office with Magic Johnson and Rob Polenka. So if I'm the Pacers, I'm pitting those two teams against each other and trying to create a bidding war as much. As much as I can.

I think it's a perfect. The real winners tonight, I think, could be the Pacers and the Bulls and teams like that. Because some of these franchises could be desperate with their picks. Not desperate, but more willing to drive up the price with the teams that ended up winning the top three points. Okay, I think not think about it. We're putting the card before the horse here. Really, it's your boys. They got all the assets.

They make the first move. So number one, will Boston take faults? Would they trade faults for Georgia Butler? That's the first question. I don't think they would for Butler. I think they would for George. They would trade Foltz for Paul George. Interesting.

I think that they would be far more likely to consider that than Jimmy Butler. I think George is a better player, more efficient, better shooter, and younger. Of course, there's a thing we just talking about that. Negging the injuries the last two years. So just the idea, would you trade nine years of Markell Foltz for one year of Paul George? To me, too much for risk with George possible to L.A. So to me, I wouldn't do that if I was Boston. Right?

Does that make sense? It totally makes sense. And I think that's really... really the big question is what will he do what what what do you how confident can you feel that he would resign okay let's go back let's pretend we're kevin connor's childhood dream you are now jama with the boston celtics what are you doing number one i'm trying to sign gordon hayward into cap space and then flipping the pick for paul george that's what i'm trying to do okay i like it very aggressive i like it okay so let's okay so i still my guess is indiana is not going to trade george

That's my thinking. I think they'd be dumb if they didn't. I think they're going to lose them. And then you get nothing. To me, if I was in the end, I would trade it. I would trade it too for Markle Fultz. I'm not sure they will, though. To me, for sure, I would do it if I was the Pacers.

Okay, so I got some Boston questions for you, Kevin. So question one, let's assume that they can't make the trade. Trade doesn't come through and they're making the pick. Is it going to be Markell Fultz? I think it will be Markle Foltz. But you don't know for sure, though. I think it will be Fultz, but you could always trade down. You could trade down to three.

Would you really trade down? Yeah, why would you not trade down? If you get a guy that you think is on the same level as Fultz or is actually your number one player on your board, if I'm the Celtics Lakers or Sixers for that matter up top, I'm considering trading down. Do you think Boston doesn't have Fultz number one? Is that what your...

I think Fultz should be number one on everybody's board. I think Fultz should be number one. Okay. So my second question is, let's say they draft Markell Fultz. Doesn't he a better fit with Avery Bradley than Isaiah Thomas? Wouldn't that be a much better backcourt, Fultz and Bradley long term? I mean, this is something I've kind of touched on before in an article on Isaiah.

Like, Isaiah is a tough guy, you know, to build around like no matter who it is. And I don't think there's any guarantee that he's the guy that you signed that long five-year-max contract because there's issues with him. And we saw that, you know, in game seven. In the game that they won at the beginning of that third quarter, they were eating Isaiah Thomas alive on one end of the floor attacking him with no matter who he was defending. Otto Porter postups, Bradley Bill running him through screens. Everybody was attacking Isaiah. And so even like in a dream scenario for the Celtics, if they sign Gordon Hayward, trade for Paul George, you still have a liability on that defensive end of the floor.

And that could be a problem for them. And to your point, maybe that's why, like, you know, drafting Fultz and having a younger roster where you do a minor. reset, that could be a better path. It's really impossible to say. I think you're going to maximize the core, but it is definitely something that I think people need to be thinking about. So like, let's say they draft Fultz. In two years, how many of Isaiah Smart and Bradley are still on the roster? If they're thinking Fultz is a guy long term. I think if they draft Fultz and the offseason goes by and they don't make any big trade with that player, the next morning, or really the whole time, people are going to be asking

So who's getting traded? Is it Avery Bradley or Marcus Smart? Or do they try to sell high on Isaiah? I think that will be the conversation because you can't keep all those guys. And not only that, they still have Terry Rozier too. Yeah, he's pretty good to playoffs. He's a better prospect than I think he gets credit for.

I think in some ways he's a lot closer to Marcus Smart than people think he's a better burst as a point guard. Better shooter. He does a lot of things well. I think he's low-key on the same level as Marcus. With Markell, you want a defensive guy. next to him at least to start of his career otherwise you could have a dame situation like dame and CJ because markell didn't play much being called whoever that's worth perhaps and i you know that's that's

you know that's you know kind of bad big question with markelle fultz is you know was he a a victim of his circumstances where he was on a losing situation and he wasn't defending hard there or is that just kind of who he is or was he not defending because it's like you know what i'm in college for one year i need to stay healthy. Just, yeah, I'm not going to bother. Because really, you know, the funny thing is, is like if you go back to game one of the season for Washington, when they're O and O, he didn't, wasn't playing that great of defense that game either. So it's not like it was towards the end of the year. He was just bad on that end. He's, he doesn't step it up. And maybe, maybe in a winning situation, he would if he did go into the Celtics. And in order to get minutes, he did have

to defend. Here's my other question. You're pretty plugging with Boston. Would there start to be chemistry issues. Like if you're Isaiah and you see that draft false, you're like, man, I want to get paid next year. It's got taken my shots. If you're Mark is smart, you want to get paid next year. If you're Avery want to get paid next year, would there be any kind of chemistry issues in Boston or something like that?

It's impossible to say if I am a player on that team, I think that you do have to think about that. I mean, especially if you're one of the younger guys, I think if you're Isaiah Thomas, you're going to get paid no matter what. Somebody's going to give you the money. But if you're Marcus Smart or you're Terry or Zier, then you're really thinking about. it. Avery Bradley not as much either. I still think he's going to get paid. People know who he is. He's a good shooter, a terrific defender, and he does a lot of things well other than that as well. I think

Isaiah and Bradley, they're going to get paid. It's Marcus and Terry Rozier, those other guys where it's like, hey, what about me? Like, where's my opportunity to really show what I'm truly capable of? Because, you know, even at this stage in their career, in a different situation, if they were like in Sacramento or Orlando, perhaps they would be playing, you know, because, you know, because, you know, consistent minutes with consistent heavy opportunities. That's one of the advantages of going to a bad team in earlier in your career. Yeah, I was just going to say, like, there is a downside. You look at like, the last time this has happened, it was Detroit in 03.

And I don't think Darko would have been salvageable regardless. But it is kind of tricky to integrate a top three pick on an elite team. It's not like always smooth sailing. But that's a pretty good problem to have, obviously. It's a really good problem to have if you're the Celtics. Eastern Conference finals start Wednesday night. and on Tuesday they ended up with the number one pick. So moving on from them, Charks.

So we got some teams, fans who were extremely disappointed after the results, Celtics won, Lakers 2, 6 is 3, which means some smaller market teams got bumped down the draft order. The Sons are at 4, Kings at 5, Magic at 6, Wolves at 7. In that range, who's the top guy in that 4 to 7 range that you think could be the best player in this draft? Well, to me the question is who fully takes at 3? because I feel like that's what the draft really starts. I think you can know Markele 1, Lonzo 2, even there's a trade.

Those guys are from the first two picks. But then Philly at 3, they kind of control the draft right now. And who they get will affect 4 through 6, 4 through 7. So I think that's where we should start. So who would, Philly, for me like Philly you have, on one hand, the best fits probably Malik Monk. But I think we both agree he's not the best player there.

You know, it depends. In some ways, I think Malik Munk is certainly extremely talented. and I think he's an amazing fit for that position. I do think that there are better prospects. I have Monk not third on my board, but at the same time, I do have him sixth, and I would put him in the same tier as the guys I have ahead of him. So I do think that he would be a terrific fit for them.

Because to me, Josh Jackson be the guy most people have slide in there, just on a value board. But to me, with Josh Jackson and Ben Simmons, it's a very questionable fit with those two together, right? Like I worry about the shooting there, they both want the ball in their hands, you know in a way space of the floor. To me, you probably can't take Josh there. And then even Tatum, I worry about Tatum and Ben Simmons fit together.

Neither one's great at defense. Tatum's, I think, more of a four than a three. Tatum's needs a ball in his hands too. Like to me, of those forwards. This is the big problem with Simmons, isn't it? Isn't this the big problem? We're asking the question who can fit around him? Like, that should not be a question that, you know,

you want to ask around the franchise player who can fit around Ben Simmons that's that's that's a good point but like the ship is sale now right yeah like now that's done it's what they're dealing with yeah like that that's already happening so if like let's say if you had a truth between Isaac Tatum and Jackson who'd you take a Philly if they didn't take a guard next to Simmons those three guys for me it's I'm still going with best player available I'm not worried at all about fit and that's Jason Tatum I have second on my board I've said I've said I said before, go-to-scoring, hardest thing to find, and I think that's what Tatum gives you. And so regardless of fit, that's what I'd be looking for. But this touches back on what I said

before, where I would consider trading down. You know, if you're the Sixers and you know you can get Monk, yeah, if you're the Sixers and you know you can get Monk at five or six, then trade down and get more value. Get another player with the pick or something like that. That pretty much never happened. That's my logic with it. How often do teams trade down three or four spots in the NBA? Like, nothing's really coming to mind. I guess there are soccer. Nothing like the NFL. Nothing like the NFL, that's for sure. I think one thing, too, teams fall in love with guys.

And they're like, I want this guy. So whatever about value and the board. Because the board can change very fluid. I mean, to me, like, if you take Tatum there, he's not getting very many shots, right? With Ben and Embed there. How many shots is Tatum getting realistically? Like 12?

And you want to Tate him, you want him to get 15, 16, 17 shots a game. That's how he gets his most value. Then who are your guards? Like, right now, The garden, or what, it's like McConnell? Who's just starting two garden in Philadelphia? I should know this, but I don't. Top my head.

I just think the key thing with Philly, John, is that you got to get talented. And I would prefer Monk, too, and I would prefer Trade Down. That would be my number one option is trade down, get Malik Monk, and something else. Whatever it might be, whether it's another future pick, or whether it's a more established player from another team in that 4-7 range, and get the guy who's obviously the best fit in addition to another asset. So I think Monk is option A, but maybe not at the third pick if that makes any sense. Yeah, I think Philly, of all the teams who came to the third pick,

Philly's in the weirdest spot because Fulton Ball had been such great fits with them, and they're just such a weird spot at the number three thing. I think they'll probably, right now I'm going to say they'll take Monk just because it's easier. Because they all have Sarge too. And if you already have Simmons and Sarich, you don't really want a big ball dominant three next to those guys. They're just not going to be right many shots or time with the ball in your hands. You've got to have an off ball player. I think they have to draft a guard at this spot.

And then it's tough because their next two guards, De Aaron and Dennis Smith, are also ball dominant players. You really can't shoot. They're in a really interesting position, I guess, long story short. Other teams that would love to be in the Sixers' interesting spot at three are in the four to seven spot. smaller market teams that, you know, fans are probably disappointed tonight. Good opportunity for teams like the sons, kings, Magic and Wolves to move up and get another franchise changing player

or their first franchise changing player on their roster and they missed out. However, there's always a possibility that the best player in this draft comes from that range. It isn't always a top three pick. So, John, if you are trying to sell hope to fans in that 4 to 7 range, who is the guy that you think has the best chance to becoming

the best player in this draft from that. range. I think the highest upside is probably Josh Jackson. So if he can like, okay, I'm a consistent 37, 38 percent three-point shooter, which I'm pretty dubious he can be. But if he can be that guy, then he has a chance to be as good as Lonzo or maybe even Markell. I think he makes a ton of sense in Phoenix. I'd be stunned if he falls below four. Because to me, he's exactly the kind of guy you want next to Devin Booker. You want a guy who can get Booker shots, a guy who can guard multiple positions, a guy who can slash and pass the ball of Booker who can spread the floor for him. To me, that makes a ton of sense, Booker and Jackson long term in the wings in Phoenix.

I'm with you there, Charks. We had Jackson going second when our NBA draft guide was revealed yesterday. You can check that out at NBA draft. Theringer.com. And ever since the lottery happened, we've moved Jackson down to fourth on our mock draft, going to the Phoenix Suns. I just think it's a perfect fit. It's really a position of need for them, and it's a skill.

of need. And I think he, the good thing for Jackson is that, you know, we talked about this on last week's podcast, that he brings the best of both worlds in the sense that he can develop potentially into a go-to score like Tatum can, and he can defend quite well like Isaac can. But he also has the passing ability. And I think that's what makes him a terrific fit in that situation, and many other situations there as well. Yeah, to me, it's pretty, I think the big question is three and then at five. So five is going to be, that's the Kings. And, And they could do anything, right? Are they even going to get workouts?

Who knows what they're going to do? That's another team that could do anything. Really, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely an X factor. I think for them, you know, if you're the Kings, I think in some ways you've got to take the guy, even if you're not getting a workout with him. You look back a couple years ago when the Sixers passed on Poisingis

partially because they didn't get access to all the information that other teams were given. He was kind of eased towards the Knicks. Maybe if you hear the Sixers, you should have just taken him anyway instead of Joliel Okina. If you're the Kings, I think you need to look at history and say, you know what, even though we didn't get this workout or we didn't get this medical information from the stuff that we know from our current intel, maybe you just take the guy anyway.

Because I look at someone like De Aaron Fox there and imagine him as a fit next to Buddy Healed, and I love it. I love that fit. And not only that, it's a position of need too. So I think Fox could potentially become the best point guard on this draft if he develops his jumper, but even if he just becomes an average shooter next to Buddy Heald, that's a pretty good balance for that team. It is. Also, they love Kentucky guys. Like Vivek has always got the Kentucky player, it feels like. Coach Cal to Kentucky is never going to go away. I don't

think it ever will go away until he's like long retired. Kyle ought to be insane to do that. If I was coach Cal, I want $100 million dollars coach to Kings. But yeah, I like the air and there a lot. That makes a lot of sense. Ask for $100 million and then settle for a little bit less than that. Like 95, yeah. Then it goes, so then it goes to Orlando at six. And to me, they're in an interesting position too. Because they, I, they have to change something up. For one thing, are they going to have a GM by then? Who knows making the call in Orlando by that point? Yeah, the timing of that will be interesting. I think we just saw in the NFL that, um, some front offices were dumped right after the draft because all the preparation were done and they hung

on to them until after. So now might be poor timing to make a front office change. I'm curious to see what the timing is with that. But at the same time, you could also say that if they wait until after the draft, that's just a couple days before free agency. So that's something worth monitoring as well. Yeah, it feels like Sacramento and five, Orlando is six. They can go on a lot of different options. I wouldn't be surprised they want for point guard or they'd go after Tatum, kind of look at all the best available player. They need a guy who can score. at buckets obviously. They could even use a shooter like Laurie Markinen.

Like he would be owed for Aaron Gordon and Alfred Payton. He might make them, I feel like Markanin is probably the lowest ceiling guy, but he might make them the most, he might improve him the most next season just because his three-point shooting ability. Like I feel like he's a guy who like, he'd be exposed in a playoff series, but if you're Orlando just gets the playoffs, it's been so long now. So at number nine, let's move to the, let's move to the eight and nine range where we have the Knicks and the Mavericks there.

Who are the guys that you think are really kind of the sleepers towards this middle, late lottery range? Okay, so to me, New York and Dallas is going to be a fascinating thing because they both need point guards. And as a Madd's fan, I'm just sending out vibes to Phil.

Do not draft Dennis Smith. He's not a triangle point guard. You don't want a small point guard who holds, you can't Dennis Smith walking the ball up the floor, passing into the corner and standing and spotting up. That's not his game.

He won't fit. in New York. He's not every disciplined player. He doesn't play defense. Not super tall. That's my take. New York should take Frank Nicolina. How do you say his name? I always butcher his name. You know, I'm just at the point where I just like calling him Frank. Just be real. Just go with Frank. Frank's a great triangle point. He's a good first name. He's a smart player. He's very deliberate. He under control. He can shoot the ball. He can guard multiple positions. Triangle, you want big tall points. You can shoot and play defense. Triangle point guard all the way, Phil.

Take Frank. So what makes Dennis Smith so appealing for the Mavericks then? If you're at that team in that, even if it's not Dallas, but that team in that range in the middle of the lottery, Dennis Smith was really right behind Fultz at the beginning of this season and really the high school circuit. So do you kind of view him as that high upside player that may have just so happened to slip after just, you know,

he had the torn ACL at the end of high school, and, you know, he didn't really have the best season at NC State. So do you view him as really that guy who is going to, going to slip when really he shouldn't. Well, to me, Smith is really good in a specific role. If he can be in a spread pick and roll system where he can shoot the ball 18 times a game and play with three or four shooters on a role man,

he's going to be really good right away. Like, he's a guy, you put him in a bad system like at NC State, he'll be very effective. But he has everything you want out of a spread pick and roll point guard. And you get him to Dallas, playing with Dirk. If Rick Carlyle doesn't kill him for not playing any defense and showing up late to practice, if he can avoid a Rick Carlyle manslaughter, he'd be a great fit in Dallas. And I really, really hope the Mavs draft him. So I've really gone back and forth with Dennis Smith this entire season.

I liked them a lot, you know, entering the year. Then towards the beginning, I really, really soured because, you know, his decision making is not great. You know, his shooting is good, but it's not great. doesn't defend it all. He's really, really bad on that end. And he's small with short arms. So he's the type of guy where he might always be somewhat of a liability even when he's trying, which is a big question in and of itself.

So I had a lot of questions about him earlier in the year, and I still do. But at the same time, to your point, John, imagine him. So at NC State, for people who didn't watch Dennis Smith play, there was oftentimes two bigs packing the paint. and there was no room for Dennis Smith the Drive who has an incredible first step, incredible burst, terrific athlete. You know, he has all those intangibles that you look for and really top NBA point cards. And he didn't have space to do what he'll be doing in the NBA.

So I imagine him in a spread offense with like Nerl and Zoel rolling down the lane and the floor spaced. And that's exciting. When you imagine that in a system like the Mavericks or another one with a similar four-out or five-out system. So that's a tough part. and really scouting some of these guys is taking them out of the situation that they're in and imagining them within a new situation,

a new environment in the NBA. I mean, it's all about fit, especially if you get at this point in the draft. Like a guy like Markell, he'll make it work anywhere, but someone like Dennis in the wrong situation would be terrible. And I think also, like with Dennis,

my guess is he gets the first, maybe a second round in the playoffs, his lack of size, not a great shooter, doesn't defend very well, not an elite decision maker. I think it'd be exposed. My guess is Dennis Smith could not be the best player on a conference finals NBA finals team.

But as a Mavs fan, I have not, don't have very high expectations anymore. We're a very humble franchise post-Dirk. So in 45 games, get to the playoffs. We're not the Celtics. You know, I'm happy a 51 team. As they can give you, I think. I mean, I don't want to get into the blow it up part. Let's avoid being happy with just 50 wins.

I got to go to these games, Kevin. I can't watch 21-team. I feel you. I feel you, man. So then towards the back of the lottery, we have the teams that are expected to be there. The Hornets out 11, Pistons at 12, Nuggets at 13, heat at 14. Charks, I know who you love in this range, and I want you to sell him. Sell him to me.

Sell him, because I like him, but I don't love him like you do. Oh, my man, OG, obviously. that's we're talking about OG Ananobe Indiana condo forward I was talking about Zach Collins I'm talking about Zach Collins I mean

Zach Collins I was gonna say Lari over Like to me Lari is the most interesting guy In here I wouldn't But I think he more interesting in Zach Collins I think he has a much higher range of outcomes Really Like I trust Zach Collins on more

You're higher in Lorry marketing more than Zach Collins now Because before I think that's the prospect But here's what I'm saying Like Zach's not going to change it team, right? Zach's a 10-year NBA player, good starter on a good team.

Lari, on a right team could be really, really good. I think he has a much wider range of outcomes. When you're at this range, the draft, like, some of these teams, they have to gamble. They have to get, they have to make a big splash. And I think Lari could be a really interesting player on the right team. He could go anywhere. He can go from like six, like 14 or 15. I think in our mock traffic, we have on 14 right now.

Him in Miami would be really, would be a fascinating fit him in Miami. So with Lowry, he's somebody, you know, look. Let's talk about him, actually, because he was someone at the beginning of the year that I was really high on. I really liked Lowry Markman, and I still do. I don't dislike him at all by any means. I agree with your point that he has a large range of outcomes. But with that said, I think we really, really saw in the playoffs what can happen with those types of guys do get put on the floor against the wrong team. We saw what happened to Ryan Anderson against the Spurs.

Kelly Olenick had his big game seven for the Celtics, but at the same time, there were all. other points in the series where he really got exposed in the defensive end because for a big man, you need to be able to defend in today's league. You need to be able to not only defend the interior, but the perimeter too. And you need to be able to space the floor. And that's what Markinen does best is shoot threes. And that's what I love about him is he's got guard skills out there. But I do wonder, and I do worry a lot, like, is there too much Kelioletic to his game where

I would want to spend a top 10 pick on him? That's why I moved him down my board to 14. I just feel more comfortable with him there. Even though you could potentially regret it a little bit higher than that, I just think there's a lot of risk with him in the sense that he doesn't rebound well at all. He doesn't defend well. And he struggles scoring against length on the inside against NBA-sized defenders. And there's concerns there for me that perhaps you had more towards the beginning of the season

than that I'm having now. Well, here's my thing. Like, you're right about all that. but we literally just watched your boy Kelly $15 million man in Brooklyn next year win a playoff series. That's one game though. That's one game though.

I mean like it's a playoff series. Like what are the odds Zach Collins wants you a playoff series? I feel like Laurie's gonna win a playoff series for a team at some point in his career. That's why I don't love Zach Collins. Yeah, I don't love him. He's a good player.

You had a five at one point. I moved it back. I have a lot of takes from the season. Okay. Don't hold me on. takes. Come on. I'm just curious.

I'm legitimately curious because I just, I agree with you that he's going to be a good role player. And it's similar to what we talked about last week with Jonathan Isaac, I think, where Isaac is someone that you can plug in and he'll be good, right? And I think that's kind of what you like a lot about Collins is that he just does a lot of things well. And that he's someone, you know, if you're in that range, it really depends on your perspective. If you're a team that you want to plug a guy in who, you know, helps your team on both

ends of the floor, but might not be that franchise changer, then you do that. But if you're looking for that home run swing and you want to, you know, really try to hit a grand slam with your pick, I'm looking at guys like Justin Patton, a big man from Creighton. He's super raw, but two-way upside, his ability to defend and shoot threes and drive. He, he just, the comp we have for him on the draft guide is Carl Anthony Towns Light. I'm not saying he'll be towns. I don't know about that. And I don't think he will be towns. Yeah. But he, but a, but a, but a, but a light version. of towns where he does a lot of those skilled things well for a big man. That's someone I'd want to take a risk on.

Talking about Jonathan John, someone like that, a big man from France, super raw, not going to be very good early in his career. He's really like three years away from being three years away, more than Bruno from the Toronto Raptors. Well, like I like Allen more than those guys, but I think we're getting two in the weeds with mid-first round bigs. Like to me with Lari, to go back to that before he closes up,

Like, I think he's probably at worst Channing Fry. And Channing Fry, he's had some big playoff moments in his career already. So to me, like, Lari might go to two or three teams in his career, but he's going to go somewhere with an elite player, picking and poppin, he's going to kill someone in the playoffs. That's my prediction. I mean, I don't know. That's really relevant to anything.

But I think Laurie's an interesting career. I'll put it that way. Well, you said he has a high range of outcomes. What do you think is his highest range of outcome? Um, his highest range of outcome is like 35 year old Dirk because he's kind of slow. Like he's Dirk got any athletic ability basically. That's his highest range of outcomes. That's a really good player too.

35 year old Dirk. It's a good player. It is a good player. I'm telling you put 35 year old Dirk on the right team and he's the winning you a playoff series, if not two. Like he would crush some teams. He shoot, Lorry can stroke it super fast. That's a crazy thing about his release. That shot goes up so quick and it goes right in the basket, man.

That's three points. Like you put Lari in Cleveland, he would score like 25 points a game some nights with LeBron. But the thing is, though, is like that gets back to, you know, my concern with Lari. Like, let's say you've replaced Kevin Love with Lari marketing, right? Let's just say in a theoretical world, that's what happens. The thing that makes Love so effective is that he's an incredible rebounder. So he might not be the best man-to-man defender or anything. But his rebounding is what allows him to play at the level that he does.

So even he makes up essentially for his defensive weaknesses with his A positional defense, because he's usually in the right spot at the right time, and B, his just excellent rebounding. Whereas Markinen, there's major concern about him becoming a good defender or even an average defender, and I don't think he'll ever be a good rebounder because of the historical rate of rebounding translating. But I think he's like chenning fry what handles.

That's a really interesting player. Let's close this up, John. Give me one player in that range that you think might be surprising for people on draft night that slips into the lottery. Oh, interesting. I was not paraphr for that question. So do you have one?

I'll go back to it in two minutes. Jonathan John, man. That's my guy. That's my guy to share. I just think he's going to be a really raw player and he's a team. He's right for a team though that is willing to take a risk. And I think there's a strong chance that he just becomes kind of just another guy. I think that's a possibility.

That largely hinges on A, his ability to put weight on his frame and be the development of his jump shot because right now he's kind of just a theoretical player in the sense that you can see the potential with him shooting threes but he's only shooting around 23% from three but he does have good form and and he does really splash threes from NBA range and on the other side of the ball because defense matters at the NBA combine he did look lost out there just like he has you know his entire season in season playing in France but despite looking lost he has a 7-6 wing span and he was still super effective at altering shots at the rim, plays with a ton of energy. And he just, he strikes me as somebody who, when you're, where you're projecting forward,

four years, five years down the road, I just see him potentially when we do redrafts, like as a top 10 guy. So I think if I'm in that 11 to 14 range at the back of the lottery, I'm really taking a hard look at John John. Okay. Seymour-Rober Javale. I guess that's the question I think

I think O'Bair has that wider frame so I think I think he is a little bit more Javail in that sense but at the same time I think Jean has higher defensive potential than McGee Yeah

If we're throwing out some names I'll throw out a name The other Justin Jackson from Maryland I'm gonna do a story on him Probably either late this week or early next week But to me this guy has got a ton of potential. I have him at 15 on my big board right now. I think he has a lot of James Johnson's game, not quite athletic, a little more skilled. Six not, he's like six seven, two, 25, seven, three

wingspan. He can guard three, four, five. He shoots three's really well. Interesting ball handler, interesting passer. In a small role on a decent team in college, I think I'll show what he could do. But I think Justin, the other Justin Jackson has got a ton of upside. And that's my like, deep sleeper. Maybe you sign a lottery, probably not. But Jackson's a good one. You have him 15th on your board right now. Do you see him moving up your personal board at all? Oh, I have him like as high as is reasonable. Because right now, I think like in the late 30s or early 20s in most places. But to me, I could make a case from going 10 even. But I would love him in Denver next to Jokic. To me, that'd be a great spot for him. We'll see. Well, you might go back to school. I mean, who knows?

He's not, he's right now. He's on the borderline. That's it. for this week's high upside. Thank you, John, for joining the show. Yeah, have a good one, man. This was fun. And thank you for listening to the latest episode of High Upside. Please give us a rating on iTunes or wherever you listen to the podcast. You can follow me on social media at Kevin O'Connor NBA, and you can follow Jonathan at Jonathan Charks. And be sure to check out our NBA draft guide on nbath.com. We've got 60 profiles up there. We updated our entire mock draft tonight. You can check out my big board, Danny Chow's big board, and Jonathan's big board as well. So be sure to Check that out.