The Ringer NBA Show - 'High Upside'—The Butler Trade, Steals, and More Surprises (Ep. 128)

Episode Date: June 23, 2017

The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor and Jonathan Tjarks recap the NBA draft. They start with the top six (0:32), then dissect the questionable Jimmy Butler trade (1:58), their draft surprises (9:45), and their draft steals (14:33). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to High Upside. Finally, the NBA draft finally happened. And it was super exciting, even though at the top of the draft, we kind of got a little bit of what we expected. And so I'm here with Jonathan Charks from the ringer.com. We're going to talk about the whole night as a whole. Give you a brief run down to start. John, how's your night going?

It's great, man. I love the draft. I could talk for hours, but don't worry. We won't talk that long. Yeah, man. It's been a long day. We've been up a long time tonight. And really, the start of the draft,

I think a lot of it went as expected. So at the top, we had Fultz going number one of the Sixers. Two, Lonzo Ball went to the Lakers like he was destined to do. Jason Tadeon went third to the Southics. I know you're happy about that. Yeah, you know, best player available. That's what you're going to do. Then Josh Jackson, four to the Sons, five for the Kings that got their guide, DeAren Fox,

and then six, Jonathan Isaac went to the Orlando Magic. John, do you have any general thoughts about the top six of this year's draft? Well, I mean, I think everybody got who they want. It seemed like it pretty much went according to plan for all those teams. I feel like the fit works just about everywhere there. Like all those teams, the ID-de-a-guy, they got who they want, and they're pretty happy about it. No, I agree. And that's why I think that trade-down made so much sense for both the Sixers and the Celtics.

They got guys that make sense for their teams based on their roster, based on the personnel, based on really just the potential when you look ahead at that Sixers roster and how they're developed. I love what they did moving up. but I love the trade for Boston getting Jason Tatum at three as well. How do you feel about Isaac going six to the magic? I know you're really high on him, so you may consider him a little bit of a steel there, a little of a slip. Yeah, you know, that's my guy.

I love the idea of Isaac and Gordon. I hope they can play at the five and the four eventually. It's kind of interesting to me they pass on the point guards, so I guess they're giving Alfred Payton one more year to show something. I was a little surprised they didn't go for the point guard there. Where the draft really changed was at seven, and we had rumors, trade rumors, the whole week. Like, this has been a wild week leading up to the draft,

and really didn't disappoint tonight. I mean, we had Jimmy Butler traded to the Minnesota Timberwolves for the seventh pick, Chris Dunn, last year's number five pick, and Zach Levine. But the Bulls also sent a 16th pick in this year's draft to Minnesota. And this was really surprising to me. I had heard earlier in the year that Butler was good as gone, but, like, as this approached, I'm thinking to myself, he's staying. Like every indication was that Butler was going to be staying in Chicago.

So this came as just a stunning moment to me today. And I'm curious, John, did the Bulls totally just screw this up? The thing that blows my mind, I saw a good tweet from my friend, Ricky O'Donnell, Lesby Nation. Shout out Ricky. He was saying, the Bulls could have made this trade last year for the same exact pieces. They watched Chris Dunn be horrible as a rookie. They made the trade anyways this year. It really is surprising.

I can't believe Boston couldn't beat this offer. And they saw Zach Levine tear his ACL. That's the part that blows my mind. And then they took Lowry Markman with the seventh pick. Look, Lowry is a knockdown shooting seven-footer. There's absolutely appeal there. But as we've kind of gone through before, Charks on prior podcast, Lowry is a seven-footer who defends, like he's six-foot-five, doesn't rebound well.

I don't think he brings a lot else to warrant taking him at seven when there's so much other elite talent available at that spot. And the other thing is why would you need to give the Wolves the 16th pick? You're giving them Jimmy Freak and Butler. Keep your picks. You're going to do a long rebuild. Then I did that. And they sell their other pick to the Warriors, which is A, shouldn't be allowed.

The NBA should not allow teams to sell picks to the freaking Warriors. And B, you're going to be a bad team for like five years. How about you use your picks? It's a top 40 pick. That's like where Brogden was taken last year and you sell the pick. That's just terrible. And that 16th pick they did give up. the Minnesota Timberl's draft the Justin Patton, a center out of Creighton.

A lot of people don't like him quite as much as I do. I think Patton is worth it at that point in the draft with the upside that he has. And that's exactly the type of player I would have liked to seen the Bulls take this year. So they get a high upside guy who has maybe a little bit of risk. But he has an opportunity long term to become a big impact player for them. And that's the part I can't get over either. They gave up the pick when really there's, I don't think, any use in doing it. I mean, I wonder if it was purely a matter of them not wanting to pay that salary.

Like, was it that much about money to them? I don't know. It's just bad. It came out of nowhere. That was the stunning part to me. And I feel bad for Bulls fans in many ways, especially after there was kind of a sense that perhaps he'd be staying put. So, sorry to Ricky. Sorry to Sean Hike and all our Bulls media friends.

But more importantly, how about Minnesota next year? That's going to be a fun thing to watch. Oh, my. they have the potential to really be really good if Andrew Wiggins steps off his efficiency out on the offensive end and if Carl Towns improves defensively. I think Jimmy Butler, more than anything else, and I talked to Chris Ryan about this earlier,

they have an alpha now. They have somebody on their team who I think can really, I think, serve as an example for the rest of the team to follow. Knowing how hard Butler works on the court and off the court, that could be good for them in so many different ways. Then again, your boy, Rajan Rondo, did not think Jimmy was much of a leader for young players, which whatever. I just thought that was funny.

Yeah, I don't know how much I buy whatever Rondo's selling. Yeah, like, Jimmy Butler and Carl Towns in a playoff series next year, that's going to be a tough matchup for a team. Like, that's not going to be an easy series, just for those two guys. Just to play devil's advocate, though, is it possible it could fail terribly?

Wiggins and Butler might not be able to space the floor effectively. I mean, is it possible that this just implodes and the Butler trade turns out to be a mistake maybe for both teams? It's possible because, yeah, Jimmy's a little older, so now he's on the same timeline as Wiggins and Towns. He's a nagging injuries, too. Yeah, but I think he's just like, Jimmy's such a freaking good player.

Wiggins is not that good right now, but Jimmy and Towns are just so freaking good. I don't think it's going to be a bad trade. But that's definitely the risk, is now their timelines are little off. So by the time, like, Towns and Wiggins are really, really good. that Jimmy will be kind of older and be wearing down a bit. In the moment, I think it'll be much better next year.

What happens to Rubio is a real question now. I don't know. I mean, I think Rubio is a guy that I would have been happy to move on from, having Chris Dunn, waiting in the wings, give him an increased opportunity. But now it's like, I'm wondering, do you hang on to Ricky Rubio and try to work with this team that you have now? I mean, is this an about face with the current roster? that's kind of where I'm at where he's a guy that I think still a really good point guard, but the reason why I thought you would have wanted to trade him is because you want to give Chris Dunn

way more opportunity. Well, I think too, with Wiggins, Butler, and Towns, those are three guys who put up a lot of shots. You want a point card who's happy to not ever shoot the ball, basically. That's Ricky Rubio. Yeah. It's a good fit for them in that sense. And then with Chris Dunn, what's your take on, I guess a lot of people are down on him because of his age and because of his just terrible rookie season. What's your take on that, Charks?

I mean, I don't think, I think he'll be a good player eventually. What do you think about him as kind of a Marcus Smart type? A good defender off the bench, energy guy, streaky shooter. I think he can be better than smart in the sense that smart is slow, done is fast. Dun has incredible bursts. But smart's obviously much bigger and stronger. So it's like a different kind of defender, but the same general role in the team. Sure. Sure. I guess I'm thinking offensively in that sense. We're done as just a more dynamic potential shot maker. And If I'm the Bulls, I mean, look, the problem with this trade for me is the fact that I don't think Levine is really that great. And then never mind the fact that Dunn, as much as I still think there's a chance that he becomes a really good player, I have a little bit more doubt after his rookie season.

I'm a Levine guy. It's just tough to trade for a guy coming off on ACL who depends pretty much entirely on his athletic ability to be good. And he has to be paid next year, too. So that's a little tough. It wasn't a good trade for them. but Dun and Levine are good. They could be good. Laurie will be decent as a shooter.

It's going to be a long, cold, and rebuild for them, man. Talking three, four years at least. All right. Enough of that. Before we go on, we have to get to our Captain Morgan moment of the draft, which actually came before the draft, when LeVar Ball was interviewed by ESPN Jeff Goodman, who asked if Lonzo Ball was indeed going to be drafted by the Lakers.

And LeVar's response was, quote, from the words of Zeus. Jesus, everybody says he's going to be a Laker. They told me before they told you all and Lanzo's in the background laughing his ass off. It was a really funny moment. Before it actually did come into fruition in the eyes of Lovar Ball

that Lanzo Ball did indeed become a Laker. He called his shot. You got to give him credit. Like at this point, how can you mad at Lovar Ball? He just, he's joking. He can tell he's saying with a smile on his face. He's being, they're putting a mic in his face and he's saying,

whatever crazy thing comes to his mind, at any point at time. It's like good for him. It's funny. I don't know if he's joking, but he's at least a living meme. He at least is providing the internet just good content constantly. I hope he continues doing it even after Lonzo really gets into training camp and into the season. Please someone get him a drink.

He deserves to relax tonight. No matter how you live like a captain, Captain Morgan reminds you to please drink responsibly. That's Captain's orders. So in the lottery this year, there weren't many surprises in the top six. The deal kind of came as a surprise. even after that, you know, you had Monk falling to 11. That might have been a surprise to some people, but not a lot to others.

I know at that 14 spot for you, Charks, the Miami Heat selection of Bam, Anabio was the biggest surprise for you in the lottery. So why is that, why was that a surprise to you? Well, to me, I just don't see how it makes sense in their system. They're all about spacing the floor around one center and white side. And so unless Bam can actually shoot the ball, if you didn't show at Kentucky, it's when they're drafting a backup five at a lottery pick who's not going to play more than like 15 minutes a night.

I think for them, I understand from a roster personnel standpoint, it does seem like he's just going to be behind White's side playing rotation minutes. And for a big man in today's NBA, that might just be 14 minutes a game. However, I think Miami has historically just taken the best player available. So for them, in their evaluation, I would assume what they see in Addibio is a room-running center, a guy who can play pick and roll for you, throw down lob dunks, can finish with a little bit of finesse too.

And then on defensive end, I think he has some versatility there too. So I think there's appeal with him in today's NBA. And perhaps that's what Miami's thinking there, even though from a roster construct standpoint, it doesn't really make a hell of a lot of sense. Yeah, that makes sense. It just seems to me at 14, you want to get a guy who can fit with what your system is and can play a bigger role.

But maybe if it's the best player available, I don't know. Biggest surprise to me, Charks, Sacramento Kings. Sacramento Kings had a great night. I'm not a big fan of Justin Jackson, who they took at 15. Harry Giles at 20, has high upside and injury issues. But, man, like overall, Dearon Fox at 5, they got a high character point guard. Jackson, again, not a big fan, high character forward at 20. Harry Giles, injury prone center, but has high upside, and he's another high character kid.

They're changing the culture, man. That's Sacramento needed to do, and they did that tonight. Yeah, I can see the culture thing. If Giles is good, it's going to be a phenomenal draft for them. And who knows, right? That's purely a medical thing. But to me, I'm always leery of treading down on the drafts from 10. I think the odds are that Zach Collins will be better than Giles and Jackson combined, most likely.

Yeah, I know you really like Zach Collins. And, you know, there's definitely an argument to be made that they should have stayed at 10. You could argue that they should have drafted Malik Monk or Luke Kinnard or I'm a huge fan of Donovan Mitchell. But look, I think for them, let's say Giles was a guy that they might have been even thinking about taking at 10. And then the fact you get him at 20, that presents insane value for them. And look, the reason why, if I'm Sacramento, I wouldn't have wanted to trade up from 5 and 10 is because they need to take shots. And so they managed to take three shots in a pretty good draft. And I think Jackson's not my favorite.

Giles isn't my favorite. But those guys still have good potential. And I can't really knock them for that, knowing the fact. that at least, at least they're starting to get on track after some of the debacle picks they had last year with Papayianus and Malachi Richardson and a bunch of duds. It's just, it's surprising just to see an about face from one year to the next.

I mean, yeah, they kind of split the baby in half. Like, Jackson is one of the safer picks because he's got a pretty high floor, and Giles one of the riskiest picks with a very high ceiling. So it'll evens out for them a little bit. All right, before we move on, just a quick word from our sponsors. Lately, I've been noticing watch brands getting into this whole minimalist vibe.

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What do you think? Why is this a great pick for the Maver's? Oh, man. Just, I'll just say to first of all, I was at the MAVs, a draft party this year, and let me tell you, the MAVs were just thrilled. They had some quotes. So first off, they were saying they would have taken Smith top five, probably. And they said, Rick Carlisle said when the Knicks took Frank at 8, they were cheering in the draft room. It was great.

And then at one point, one of the reporters asked Rick, they were like, well, if Frank was still there at 9, would have been a hard decision to make? and Rick kind of looked at him like no bro it would have been a really easy decision and they were asked I mean Smith's the perfect player for the math system when they play Dirk at the five he's going to have massive driving lanes

it's going to be he's not going to play much defense he'll turn over a lot but he's going to score 15 16 70 points a game right away as a rookie he's a bigger faster better version of Yogi Farrell I mean this is a win win win for the mall I'm loving it in a prior podcast we talked

about Dennis Smith and how at NC State he played so often with two bigs on the floor, but now he's going to be playing with a four or five out offense where he's going to have just open lanes and that's what he's best at is breaking down the defense and getting to the bucket or just creating his own shot and pulling up. So it's really, really exciting for Dennis Smith to go into the right situation. I was worried if that if he were to go into the triangle offense with the Knicks, it would really, I guess, very stifle his development. But with Dallas, I think Rick Carlisle is going to be really good for him to, develop his IQ and his decision-making on end while also getting early opportunity and reps.

And that's so important for point guards early in their career. I've worked through mistakes. And I hope he's provided that in Dallas when he's running heavy pick and roll with that team. Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, either he's going to have one of the best rollers in the league in Nerlin's Noel or one of the best pop guys all time in Dirk Nevitsky. Those are his two fives that he's going to play with this entire time as a rookie. Like, this is great, man. I got him for rookie of the year.

Can you get that anywhere else in the league if you're a rookie point card? An elite role man like that and then one of greatest shooting power forwards ever in Dirk? I don't think so. I mean, you look at what Yogi did this year. Like, now he got a lottery picking that spot. Like, this is going to be, I will say Smith's defense will get him bench at some point this season. That's probably a guarantee. But when he's on the 40s, he's going to score a lot of points.

For me, the biggest deal came in the second round. It was back to back to back picks. Jonah Bolden went 36 to the Sixers. Shemi O'Jale went 37 to the Celtics and then Jordan Bell went 38 to the Bulls and they traded them to the Warriors. It's a crime. That's an absolute crime.

It is. But those three guys really high on them had them all ranked as first rounders. I think they presented great value and they really depicted how good this draft was in terms of potential value picks in the second round. So if I'm a fan of all three of those teams, Sixers Celtics Warriors,

I'm excited because those are quality players that I think had first round grades in the eyes of a lot of evaluators. I know you love Jonah Bold and you love Jordan Bell and I love Shemiojale. So look, like those teams are getting quality players with a second round grade on it. I think that's a really good spot for those guys. Absolutely. I mean, I don't think it can be stated enough for a crime it was. Golden State just paid cash for Jordan Bell. That guy is a perfect fit for their system. I mean, really the league should have beat to that trade. That's just unfair. It's absolutely ridiculous. Adam Silver should have pulled

David Stern and blocked it like it was a Chris Paul deal. I mean, I remember in the tournament, I wrote an article when they went to the final four. I was like, Jordan Bell is playing like a college, Raymond Green. He's not a shooter like Draymond is, but he's a great passer, a great defender. He's very athletic, super high IQ player. He's going to play for them next year, reasonably big minutes. Like, McAoo's spot is gone. Sorry, Tate.

Macadu's done. Yeah, and for that matter, I think Damien Jones, perhaps he could surpass him. him on the depth of throat. I like Deanie Jones. But I think Jordan Bell is a better overall player, more versatile on defense. I think he's probably better mentality, too, for that manner. I think Jordan Bell could definitely play early in his career, especially Javelle McGee, could get paid elsewhere as well.

Center minutes could open up from that slot as well. I mean, the real crime is Jordan Bell is a kind of big man, a team that wants to beat Golden State should have. Like, he should not be playing for Golden State. It was really just, I thought the Bulls for a moment had really had like a one good spot in their horrible night. Like just one good moment. Jordan Bell, good versatile center for them to have them on their roster and develop when they had a younger team going through a rebuild, but then they just held them for cash. I just can't get over it.

I mean, let me say this. Like I like Laurie. Laurie's going to be a good NBA player for a really long time. He's never going to play big minutes in a conference finals. Bay Finals realistically, given how he plays defense. Jordan Bell could, and he got drafted 30 spots later. Like, it's just terrible, man. Well, that's it for high upside.

And it's the last high upside of the season, which is sad, but it's also exciting because the draft just happened. We do have Summer League coming up, though. That's exciting. Do you have any Summer League thoughts? I won't hear your dulcet tones over the Internet anymore. I'm a little sad about that. Summer League thoughts.

The Celtics are going to have like 12 drafts. picks and there's Summer League team. That's going to be funny. They're going to be loaded. Well, that's it for IHopside. We thank you so much for listening to me and Jonathan Charks just ramble on about the draft. John, thanks for joining me tonight, staying up so late. Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for humoring us this year, guys. We appreciate y'all listening. If you like the Ringer NBA show, please give us a rating five stars on iTunes or wherever you listen to a podcast. You can follow me on Twitter at Kevin O'Connor NBA. You can follow Charks at Jonathan Charks, that's T-J-A-R-K-S.

And you can follow the Ringer on all social media platforms at Ringer. Thank you so much for listening. Peace out.