The Ringer NBA Show - Hoops Hospital and Zion Williamson With Michael Pina | The Answer

Episode Date: November 1, 2022

Seerat and Kyle are joined by The Ringer's own Michael Pina to discuss his excellent article about the spiraling Brooklyn Nets, their recent firing of coach Steve Nash, and the ramifications this move will have on the team moving forward. This leads to a game of 'Hoops Hospital', where they each take turns diagnosing the issues infecting not just the Nets, but the Lakers and Clippers as well, issuing much-needed prescriptions to get those teams off the operating table.(3:06) After the break, they dissect Zion Williamson's performance so far this year and talk about their concerns and expectations for him with the Pelicans this season.(39:55) Hosts: Seerat Sohi and J. Kyle Mann Guest: Michael Pina Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bill finally gave the ringers Philly crew a podcast. I'm Ben Solac. And I'm Shiel Capadia. That's right, just a couple of Philly guys with a new space to fire off some Eagles takes to get caught up in the Sixers, Chaos, and more. We'll be coming to you twice a week on Sundays and Thursdays, plus bonus episodes whenever we get breaking news or Philly drama. Plus when Hardin and Embed somehow convince you suckers that this year's going to be different,

our fellow Philly stands at the Ringer will have you covered on the Sixers and all your other favorite teams in town. It's Philly Sports Shield. What could possibly go wrong? Join the fun and follow the ringers. Philly Special now on Spotify. Hey guys, before we get started, I just wanted to make a quick, like,

kind of programming note here that we were discussing the Steve Nash and Brooklyn Parting Way's news dropped. While we were recording this conversation, we started to kind of talk about some of the candidates that might slip in there. One of them was Eme Yudoka, who after we recorded the pod, ended up being the choice for the Nets.

Interesting choice. We kind of talk a little bit about, like, the personality types that are right to steer a team like the Nets. So we can kind of apply that to the things that we say. It's going to be interesting. And then there are all the other kind of components that are tying to why EMA was, you know, suspended by the Celtics and not retained. And all those things I know are going to get even more discussion on the ringer feed. So stay tuned for that. And I just want to let you guys know that before we get going.

Well, it's basketball is so, so stinking good. And any day in the basketball world is bolstered when I can be joined by intelligent, bright, engaging, funny, charming, good-looking people to engage on the sport with me. And I'm joined today by Siritt, so he's Siriot. What's up? Thank God Michael Pina is here today because I am not any of those things. Well, you buried the lead. That was my next thing. She just immediately deflected. We're joined by one of the ringers' newest editions, the brilliant prolific fellow Michael Pina. Michael, how are you doing, buddy? Are you excited? How's your first little bit here on the other side at the ringer been for you so far?

I'm pumped. This is my first pod since coming on and joining you all. And both of you are better looking and more intelligent than I am. So I'm very excited for this conversation today. Yeah. Michael was telling us, you're located. You were telling us you're located near. I don't want to like docks you here and give up your identity, but you were telling us your proximity to Barclays earlier. Let's, you know, let's jump right to it speaking in the NBA, talking about the NBA.

There's a ton to talk about before, as we were prepping this morning, something relevant to what we were going to talk about went down. I want, you know, I'm all about bits. I don't know if you guys with your friends, if you have your bits, if you have your recurring, you know, silly bullshit that you like to do. I'm always looking for something like that. And I wanted to do a little something here that I wanted to call Hoops Hospital. The concept here for Hoops Hospital, I'm the chief of staff, self. anointed. I'm the guy with all the degrees on the wall. And I have a great staff of doctors who are going to help me diagnose the patients within the NBA. We have different patients. We have teams that are

thriving that are super healthy. We have some patients that need some special attention. And one of the ones that we had on the list was a team, the Brooklyn Nets. The Brooklyn Nets have gotten off to a, let's call it a bumpy start. Let's call it a, we'll call it a sputter. But they had a big change this morning Steve Nash and the Brooklyn Nets have decided to mutually heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy quotes part ways. Just how mutual do you guys think this was? What do you think the general vibe of, and is this a surprise? If I were Steve Nash looking at from that perspective, this is not mutual. This is me resigning and leaving Brooklyn and never returning for the rest of my time on this planet. I it just he seems very miserable he seemed very miserable in that position and who can blame him since he's been the head coach of the Brooklyn Nets there's been one catastrophe after another they've just felt cursed on the court not cursed off the court because a lot of it is them doing it to themselves and just having very mercurial and volatile personalities and it's just I don't think that's

necessarily what he signed up for when he became head coach. And if I were him, I would have not started this season as head coach of the Brooklyn Nets. I would have been out before this. I've just been measuring Steve Nash's stress levels through his jawline and his cheekbones. Really? I need to like screenshot this for an article. I need some like body language detail here.

Yeah. Look, look, we have, we have seen that face in pain before. We have, we have seen him play with a broken nose with like basically. you know, gash in his eye. I have not seen just like the, I just, I worry about his TMJ. You know, I think that he should, the first thing he should do before, after he leaves Brooklyn is go see a dentist because, or just get like a face massage or something, you know, like I just, I'm, I'm thrilled for him, to be honest.

He's one of my favorite players, just, you know, Kid Canada out here. I was just, I was just worried about him, you know. Steve Nash was not really, he was always a viable. be guy and the vibes just weren't there. Like, they won against the Pacers last night, which... The mighty Pacers. Yeah, the Mighty Pacers. I don't know how you guys feel about that timing necessarily.

Like, it's always strange to have this type of decision come down after a win, especially when, you know, they're playing tonight. But after they lost the first game, he was just really, it seemed really upset about the effort. It was kind of just defeated a little bit in postgame. Just like, we, like, I don't know what you want me to say type of vibes. at we just didn't bring it at all. And maybe that was kind of the writing on the wall

because it looked like he had given up. You know what I mean? Can I just say I think the writing on the wall was when his best player wanted him fired in the offseason? Subtle. It was a subtle hit. That was very subtle. And it just kind of matriculated out there and went under the radar.

But you're right, Michael. I think that was a good point. That's a good point. If I was Steve Nash, I would have walked into that meeting, I'm like, hey, KD, don't threaten me with a good time. Woz is reporting here that Jacques Vaughn is the acting head coach, but expect the Nets to inquire with suspended Celtics head coach,

I'ma Udoca, really interesting. Actually, I think Stephen A. Smith alluded to this on the air the other day. Quinn Snyder, among others, Boston apparently will let Udoka leave for another job. My question for you guys is, how culpable is Nash in this, or was in this whole Nets experience? You know, you're talking a lot about stress. Fatigue was a word that I heard brought up. Fatigue is a word that I just feel like is a really good single word descriptor for this whole Nets experience. Everybody's just fucking worn out and tired from it. It's just, it's tiring.

My question for you guys would be, you know, Udoca, pretty strong, hardline kind of a coach, a personality holds guys accountable. My wonder here is, is this manageable at all? Like, what is the right type of personality? I was listening to my buddy Ben Taylor had Mike Dantonie on his pod the other day, and he was talking about Nash as a leader. And he described Nash when he was a player as very soft-spoken, comparing him to like CP3, leads by example, hangs back. You never really saw that because there have been myriad situations within this Nets experiment where the line needs to be drawn.

And, you know, Marx finally did it. The ridiculousness has gotten out of control. what type of personality is right for this? Is there one? Is there a guy like culturally that you think could hold these guys accountable and ring the most out of this really talented experiment? But is it possible? I don't think we know if Steve Nash is a good. I'll start right there.

I don't know if we know if he's a good coach or a bad coach. The Brooklyn Nets had the best offense in the history of the NBA in 2021. They easily could have won the championship if many things went their way that didn't harm. James Hardin pulling his hamstring, Kyrie Irving landing on Janice and Dantacupo's foot and spraining his ankle, KD's toe being on the line in game seven against the Milwaukee Bucks. They were really humming that season. And then, you know, Kyrie Irving just decides not to get vaccinated.

And last season is just completely derailed. And I don't know if a forceful personality could have gotten Kyrie. to get vaccinated. I don't think that that's the head coach's responsibility or if anyone could have that influence and that power. I mean, I'm not even going to, like, we don't even really know 100% fully. It's not all out why Yemeo doco was let go by the Celtics,

or not let go, but suspended for a year by the Celtics. And so bringing him into this is just like absolutely wild to me. And I can't see that happening. And as I say that, like I can actually see anything happening. Brooklyn, so sure, hire him. Like, I just, it's, it's just a ridiculous situation. Chaos does attract chaos. I would just be really curious to know how much of a say Kyrie and KD are going to have

in this next coaching search because Steve Nash was handpicked by Kyrie and KD. They really wanted him. You know, KD and Nash grew really close in their time together in the Warriors. And then it was KD who also wanted him out. And that comes like, that comes after them. I'm basically getting Kenny Atkinson out of the way for not playing DeAndre Jordan more minutes, which by all accounts was a good basketball decision by Atkinson. So I don't know how much rope, especially Kyrie has.

If you've got Joe Sy, the owner of the team coming out and speaking out against the movie that Kyrie posted and everything, and I don't know if we necessarily need to get into all of that today, I think, you know, it's been covered. but I don't know if, I don't know, like, I'm just going to be curious who the brain trust is here, right? Like, are they going to bring in the type of coach that, you know, will crack down on players and try to hold them accountable? Or will they bring in, like, more of a player coach? Because at the end of the day, we also have the Kevin Durant stuff going on where if they don't listen to him, he might just renege and say, hey, you know what, I actually do want out. Sticking and circling back to the kind of the theme of this that we were talking about, that we're looking at, we're looking at. at a patient here that was already complex before this coaching thing went down.

It adds another variable that makes it even more confounding. Like, Seared, I think you brought up a lot of good questions about, like, the player coach. It seems like that's the only thing that they're going to tolerate is a guy who is sort of a manager in the way that he defers to the players a like hard line kind of a like maybe a spolster type. I have a harder time seeing that working. I don't know that there's even a guy out there that's eligible or qualified or maybe there's somebody that you guys know of that I don't know of, but purely in the basketball sense,

did you want to add something on that, Sir? Just that the laissez-faire coaching style just didn't work. I think like a key to having a coach like that, like, you know, say a coach like Steve Curry is a player is themselves having a high level of self-accountability. And that just isn't the case with the team. Like I think, I think Durant is probably, you know, the only leader on that team who actually would say hold himself accountable and see what's going on the floor clearly and, you know, try to diagnose it in the way that actually makes sense.

I mean, Kyrie is not that guy, and Simmons absolutely is not that guy, right? So maybe you do need a level of counterbalance. I almost wonder if there's a world where, you know, Kevin Durand starts to think to himself, hey, it would actually be lovely to have an adult in the room here. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't think a Kyrie whisper. I don't think a Ben Simmons whisper. I don't think those people are currently working in basketball or potentially even exist.

So it's just that that's very difficult. And if you were kind of dictating your head coach hiring philosophy on how to appease those two, I think you're making a catastrophic mistake. But I just want to say that the big winner today is Kenny Atkinson. Kenny just keeps winning. And it's just been an incredible run for him ever since. He was fortunate enough to be fired by the Brooklyn Nets. So shout out to Kenny.

I just wanted to get that in here. Yes, shout out to Kenny. He has come away looking pretty good from this. The second biggest winner is Steve Nash. Yeah. So you talked about Syriot about like the diagnosis. So just looking at this as a basketball team and Michael, the things that you said were right about last, you know, when they had Hardin and Kyrie and KD going, just the basic sort of basketball flow and geometry there is implied. I mean, those guys all can draw to at will.

They're all pretty good passers. Even KD has improved as a passer over his career. Hardin's not there anymore, though. Now we have Ben Simmons. We have a basketball team that has a lot of issues in varying areas. I guess if you guys were going to diagnose their basketball problems, and Michael wrote an awesome piece about the Nets and Ben Simmons more specifically on the ringer that everybody should go check out.

How would you just 30,000 feet diagnose the Nets problems? What would you say the first problem is that they need to solve? I mean, their defense is terrible. They can't rebound. Their front court is super thin. That's the biggest issue for me. Katie's having an awesome offensive season so far. And Kyrie is, you know, playing good basketball is what I'll just say about Kyrie.

Like on the court, he's been as advertised and playing at an all NBA caliber level. Like, you should be able to design almost any type of offensive scheme around. those two and have it be top 10 in the NBA, particularly when you look at the shooting that they have. And I think one of the underplayed kind of issues that this organization has had is Joe Harris' ankle. And he wasn't really available all that season. He's low-key, super critical as one of the few two-way wings on the roster. So, you know, surrounding those guys with shooting and Seth Curry is also someone who's out again tonight and recovering from off-season ankle surgery

and he's not even a two-way wing. He's just an incredible shooter. So, I mean, looking at the issues, it's just defense and needing more two-way wings and size and length. And Nick Claxton, like, I think he's really intriguing and there's upside there. But as the starting center on a champion,

I just don't see it. So I would upgrade at the center position and get depth there if I were trying to fix this team. One thing that I think was in your piece, too, was just like how future their defensive rebounding numbers are too, right? And I think if you get back some of the shooters that they're missing, maybe you can just stack the decks the other way. Like, I kind of feel like they should play like the Warriors do, where, you know, they have non-shooters on the floor, but they just use the gravity of all the incredible scores that they have to make up for that. but that requires I'm actually working together and, you know, exercising a level of discipline that they haven't really showed so far.

Like you wrote about Simmons screening a lot more, but if those screens aren't going to be, you know, followed up by really aggressive roles that suggest that you might actually take the layup if he's possible. I don't really know exactly how well it's going to work. I will just, this feels like a good time to add. I talked to, I was, I did a piece on Denver earlier in the summer and I talked to Bruce Brown, who basically told me that the Nets just didn't really reach out in the summer. You know, they talked to him after the season was over and then he just never heard from them again in free agency at all, which guys, guys, guys, they were like their best player in the playoffs.

I'm just like, it's ridiculous. You want to talk about like a smart playmaker who could like help them on the defensive end. but also not take away anything on offense because he knows how to play in space. Like that is your guy right there who would, you know, despite, yeah, he's a better shooter now too. But he would also, like he would play well with Ben Simmons as well. And they could actually really have some stuff going. But yeah, I don't know.

I guess, you know, to the net, to the net's credit, they were probably really busy trying to convince Kevin Durant not to, not to leave. But that is just in hindsight hilarious. Yeah. I think there's, there are a couple things I wanted to. throw in here and sprinkle on the good points that you both made. The absence of Seth Curry and Joe Harris is substantial because these are two of the better like Relo movement shooters in the

world. The pat this past season, Curry shot 42.7% on on Relo and movement threes and Joe Harris shot 48.28% from three. Those are good numbers folks. So and then, you know, that's added spacing that could help you play that way. But, sir, the other thing that you said that I think is key here, is like Ben Simmons aggressiveness, and this is going to be a segue, a flip segue to Zion, we'll talk about later, but Ben's aggressiveness screening the ball makes all the difference in the world because he's not going to do any of your like versatile scoring stars a lot of favors. If they know he's terrified to shoot the ball. This season, he's set 68 screens and only two of those have led to him attempting a field goal, two out of 68. So if they know that he's really aggressive in

those dribble handoffs going to the to the rim, that's going to be an extra thing for them to think about. But like coming away from that, I mean, do you guys, I know Michael, you kind of alluded to it that they need to upgrade. Is it, is it in general, are we talking about, is there any kind of like schematic, medicinal thing we can do for this patient? Or do they need surgery to compete in the East? I mean, look, like Simmons has looked terrible, but he didn't play basketball last season. He's coming off back surgery. And there's a chance that he becomes more aggressive as the season goes on and he grows more comfortable with new teammates in a new system. And I don't even know what the system will be under Jacques Vaughn or whoever the head coach is going forward.

But it's just like if he doesn't, as you said, if he doesn't even like put pressure on the rim, which is something that like, Drayman doesn't shoot a ton, but he puts pressure on the rim. he pushes it in transition and when he picks up his dribble, he knows what he's going to do with the ball. Ben Simmons pushes in transition and he sees a defender between him and the basket and he picks up his dribble and then he looks around for three seconds and he doesn't know where anyone is. And it's like that's just it just kills all the momentum of what they're trying to accomplish.

So Simmons could just get better and then maybe you can play him at the five in lineups that just outscore the opponent and you don't have to worry so much about defense. but I'm personally a little pessimistic about that, even though, like I said, he didn't play basketball last season and is seemingly coming back from a serious injury. So I guess to answer your question, like surgery, but they might die on the operating table. So the interior defense thing that you said is pretty tough in a conference

where the big bosses that you have to pick off one by one all have insanely high quality interior. offense. Like, what are you going to do with that? I mean, seriously, what do you think? Do you think that they are savable as is or do they need to make a big move? I think they're already dead. I think it's time to check if the patient has a donor card. And, you know, it's just, it's time to make the best of the pieces that you have. And just go fully back into, you know, what this team was when they did like the fire sale of

Kevin Durant and Paul Pierce and just got, you know, just, I mean, they didn't really, they didn't get any picks back from it, but this is actually a situation where they could. Wow. Wow. Let's just blow it up. I don't see, I don't see. The vibes are so bad. You know, like, if it's one, it's one thing if a team actually wants to play together.

Like, my original thing was going to be lobotomy, right? But they, that's what they're doing right now. They got rid of the. Just a lifeless zombie would be better than any thinking at this point. Michael, you had one, you had one suggestion that, well, I mean, made my eyes, bug. You suggested a trade for them with the Lakers. What was that? Pitch that to us quickly. Slightly flippant. I will throw that caveat in. But just a straight superstar swap of A.D. for Kevin Durant. Just like, I don't know if that makes either team better. I don't know

if it makes any of them worse. But the thinking is basically just if you're the Nets, Katie doesn't want to be here and we get someone who's three or four years younger who can potentially be, you know, an MVP candidate if healthy will help us on the defensive end. He can be our center. He can protect the rim. He can be a defensive player of the year candidate, frankly, when he wants to be. And I don't know how AD would fit with, I mean, the fit there is just like kind of an issue, of course, because AD's jump shot is completely broken. So the fit with Ben Simmons is a little worrisome and troubling. But like if you want to get star power for KD and you don't want to blow it up,

which they should do, then I think that's the best you could potentially do. I don't see any other organization that says desperate enough to make a deal and deal away their best player, one of their best players, a superstar talent like that for KD. So yeah, that's kind of like a. semi-joke that could actually happen, I guess, is how I would describe it. But it's also just what I want to see in reality. Like, it's for me. I'm selfish and throwing it out there into the world. I would really love for that trade to happen. The NBA season is underway and it's the

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All right, so the next patient has been brought into the waiting room here, and that's the L.A. Lakers. They're hobbling. They have a super bad limp. They can't speak. They're not looking good. You know, just my eye tests kind of as a doctor. I'm looking at them, and I'm like, something's going on. Something's wrong here. CIRAT what's your diagnosis for the Lakers right now? What's going on? What's ailing them? Well, the Lakers, I think we all kind of know.

They're one of the worst three-point shooting teams pretty much of all time. Last of a league in offensive rating, 27th in offensive rebounding rate, which that one surprises me, given the personnel, last and true shooting percentage. But I will say, you know, to the credit of the patient, they're starting to make some of the changes is that they need to make for themselves, you know? Oh, really? Considering a healthier, a healthier lifestyle, just. What does that entail?

What does that lifestyle entail, though? I'm curious. Is it their diet of who's eating? What's going on? Well, it's more about the timing, right? Like, a couple of years ago, I was having digestive problems. And, you know, my doctor essentially told me that I have to start, you know, I just have to start caring about when I eat.

Like, I have to eat breakfast in the morning. I can't just, you know, I'm not, I'm not 17 anymore. It actually matters. The reason it's the most important meal of the day. So what you're saying is LeBron's not 18 anymore, and he needs to be thinking about who he surrounds himself with. Maybe you can't skip getting shooters, that kind of thing. Is that the parallel?

A little bit. You know, I think it's just it's all about balance. You know, you can't have all your protein in the start of the day, right? So the Lakers are staggering their meals a little bit. Russell Westbrook agreed to come off the bench. And for real this time. He came off the bench against... He was forced to, basically.

But it's a whatever. The circumstance is much like they did for me, when my stomach took a turn for the worst, the circumstances forced him to make a change. And it went really well. So we only have a one game sample size so far. He came off the bench against the Nuggets. And the Lakers got their first win of the season as a result.

So first of all, you just love that for them. Michael's clapping. Yeah. It wanted it. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think it, I don't know if it warranted the celebration, the locker room with the Garvin Hatt.

I'm getting Gatorade poured on him. Like, he just won an NCAA championship. But you know what? At least they're happy, you know? At least like Lakers fans aren't booing Russ right now. Like he was actually in a pretty good place with the crowd in that game. He was getting them hyped up. He seemed like he was in a better place.

He played really well. He was energetic. and the Lakers also had one of their best shooting nights, if not their best shooting night of the entire season. And I think that has to do with the fact that they just had a much more balanced out floor. So I'm a little bit cautiously optimistic for the patient right now. I mean, maybe they can figure out a way to solve their issues. So hold steady right now is what you're saying. We'll continue on the regiment that we've established and we think he'll be doing better in a month or so.

Hopefully. We're not releasing them from the whole. hospital by any means right now. Like, we need to keep monitoring things. But one thing I did want to point out, so we, you know, we've been talking about the Lakers shooting pretty much since the off season when they didn't sign any shooters. And I think there's been a lot of, you know, just poking fun at how they think that they can internally improve their shooting.

And, you know, LeBron said it too. Like, there's a reason that they're open. But to their credit, while they don't have a lot of shooting, everybody on that team who does shoot the ball is shooting much worse than their career percentages. So I'll just go through this. LeBron shoots 7.7 threes per game. Now, it's a problem that he is, you know, their highest

volume shooter. That's, you know, just never, never a good thing. Again, just not a well-balanced eye from these guys, right? But he's shooting 26%. He's 35.7% over the last six years. Then Kendrick Nunn is shooting 27%.

He was 36.4% in Miami. Troy Brown Jr., 20, He's a career 33% shooter. Patrick Beverly, at 19%. He's a career 37% shooter. So I do think that those shooting numbers should stabilize a little bit. Again, none of these guys are world beaters.

I'm not, you know, there's no Seth Curry's on this team. But I don't know. I find reasons to be cautiously optimistic, especially, and this is a key thing for me. They're unlike the Nets, this patient has interest in being alive. You know what I mean? They play the second best. defense in the league. They do try. And I think if they hit more of their shots, their offense kind of becomes their defense too. And now finally, we might see that picture of the

Lakers team that we imagine, the best case scenario of them that we talked about probably last summer, you know, them pushing the ball in transition off of, off of steals and just, you know, being really destructive that way. So I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Right now, we're just, we're going to continue monitoring the situation. Dr. Pina, do you concur? What do you think? Well, to that point, the Lakers have the highest or best shot quality in the league this season and the worst effective field goal percentage.

So the gap there is just gargantuan. And that supports what Sirr is saying. I think that the Lakers are done. They are deceased. And if the conversation is, can they, crawl, can they walk or can they win a championship? Like, I just don't think that it's worth working on this team because the goal should be to try to win a championship.

And I don't know what trades can be made. I don't know what internal tinkering can happen to win a playoff series, let alone contend. So I think that they're kind of, they're stuck in a situation where there's not a lot of moves to make, obviously. And I think they're gone. I think the season's over for them. I'm sorry. We're getting into a lot of ethics of medicine stuff that I hadn't prepared for,

like metaphorically in my segment and my bit. I didn't either. To be honest. Quality of life here. Are they going to win a championship? I mean, I think we would all agree that that's not going to happen. It's about at this point,

I don't really even know what it's about for LeBron at this point. Because he's obviously not. I was thinking about that third eye blind song, like a whole year. lost or something. I forget what it's called. That's kind of what we're doing here. Yeah. So I kind of am with Sear it a little bit on like I do you think it's going to

stabilize some, but the ceiling for this, I guess it depends on which how you define quality of life. Yeah, we just don't know if there's like a do not resuscitate thing going on with them, right? Like if Lakers themselves, they're all about their championships. But LeBron, maybe for him it's more about just, just keeping it moving on until Bronnie's in the league, right? There might be different motivations for staying alive here. We don't want to go too deep in the weeds with that one.

The last one that we want to do here is the Clippers. Now the Clippers are off to a three and four start. Kauai here is probably the biggest bullet point. They've had some interesting games here. Their three wins are against the Lakers, the Kings and the Rockets. I wouldn't define those as tough matchups. And their four losses are to Phoenix. They lost the OKC twice.

which is a pretty fascinating one. And then the Pelicans who have been playing pretty well. Dr. Pina, what do you think about the clippers? Where is this patient right now? I'll start by saying I pick the clippers to win the championship this year. I can't get too concerned about them until Christmas, at least. That's what I keep telling myself, regardless of what happens. Because, like, how do you grade this team without a healthy or even an active Kauai Leonard?

I mean, he's not going to be on their upcoming road trip to Texas, has not started a game this season, is clearly frustrated and bothered by his knee and trying to get back from a torn ACL, suffered in the 2021 playoffs. Like, if this is still happening where they're up and down, their offense is terrible, Kauai is in and out of the lineup, but this is still happening by Christmas, then I'll be very concerned. Right now, I'm just kind of blah about it. and I think their defense looks great. I think their roster is built for the postseason.

And so you know, you see them go small a lot early in games and switch everything. And I think that'll work much better in a playoff series as opposed to like, for example, they just beat the Rockets. And Houston's small lineup is like better than theirs. So it's just kind of, kind of weird to see earlier in the season. And everyone's trying to still feel each other out. but I'm not too worried about the clippers right now. I think rest and relaxation is all that they need at this point in the season.

Yeah, you mentioned Kauai, 41 total minutes played this year. That's all he's played. My question for you guys would be, let's imagine, I mean, the knee stuff I can sympathize because I'm somebody that's had lingering knee stuff for a long time. It's really annoying how it can kind of decalibrate your body and just kind of continue to linger. it's frustrating. And I'm just like Kauai in terms of like talent, I think, and physical build. But we don't want to linger too much on that.

Totally. Where does this Clippers team, how much do they plummet in terms of like regressing to the mean if this is just a Paul George led team? You talk about their defense, fifth in the league and defensive rating. Can they score enough? That would be my question. Do you think that they'll be able to score enough? We expect that defense to hold up.

Did they become an average team? team without Kauai? What do you all think? I mean, right now they're just like getting crushed in the possession game. I think they lead the league in turnover rate on offense or their worst, I should say, they're turning the ball over the most and then they're forcing the fewest amount of turnovers on the other end. So it's like you're just not going to win a lot of basketball games if that's the case. And yeah, it's just, I think John Wallet looks really good.

Reggie Jackson can't look any worse right now. So going back to the Lakers thing, I think that he'll regress a little bit and come back to who he's been over the past couple years with them. But yeah, like I, they just kind of can't like this offense being, uh, the second worst in the NBA at a rate that's like three points per 100 positions below the 28th ranks offense just doesn't, it doesn't compute in my head. I can't believe that that is going to sustain. They have to get better.

They just have to. Yeah. I mean, PG hasn't necessarily been himself. I think Norman Powell is going to take a little while before he rounds back into shape to Jackson to your point as well. They just have some guys that aren't playing to the standards that we expect him to. And I don't really have reason to believe that they won't necessarily get there.

I also think John Wall should start at some point as well. He's just, I think you're wasting his playmaking and table setting ability. If he's not out there with PG and Kauai, and he's just, he's been really awesome too. He looks really good. And I don't know, maybe there is a locker room thing there too, or maybe they feel like they have to start Jackson. I have no idea. To your point on the possession game, I think the turnover issue should sort itself out. The turnovers are kind of just weird.

Like when you look at them, they're not really easily diagnosable. But I think that might be a good thing. Like they're really just kind of random turnovers, at least in my opinion from what I've been seeing. But my concern is the other end of it is how badly they're getting beat on the offensive boards, especially when Zubach said it's like that's the other end of this small. ball lineup. And that may be when Kauai's back that will sort itself out too. I think he's one of the best rebounding wings in the NBA. But that to me, that to me is a bigger structural issue in a Western conference where you have the Memphis Grizzlies and you have Nicolai Yokic and if the

Timberwolves figure what they're doing out and the warriors who have always been a good offensive rebounding team and also know how to like really, really punish you with threes off of that. That concerns me more than anything else. like their third most important player right now, which I don't know how to feel about that, but it seems to be the case. Yeah, it seems like Wall could come in. And I think sometimes you can kind of just have turnovers from, it's always important to watch them. I always think that whenever we talk about turnovers, because they can be misleading. And I think some of the stuff you were talking about, Syred is kind of similar to the Lakers, obviously big talent gap here to the Clippers. But,

you know, sometimes when you have sort of you're getting back, you're trying to get your feel for how your offense is going to flow. And Kauai is kind of here. He's not here. I could see some of the turnovers adding up on that front. But both of you kind of feel like surgery not necessary for the clippers. If they hold, if they hold path, they should be okay. I have some structural concerns, but I also think that maybe they could make up for them

just by being really good at small ball. But right now, let's hold. Let's hold off. Let's let them do their thing. What were both of your expectations for the clippers coming into the season? I had them winning the championship. Oh, we got two clippers people here. I have the Warriors repeating, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

And I think this is partially why, just because you were talking about PG. PG's been really inconsistent shooting the ball, like shooting threes in the pick and roll. He's shooting 26% and 31.1% overall. Big dip for him. I mean, I think they're going to need him to be like really, really dynamic and really high quality. Like he's going to have to balance that toggle between that we always talk about like playmaking and scoring. For them to be really good, he's going to have. have to have like a fantastic year, in my opinion.

All righty, before we move on and talk about another segue to a team I think that's relevant and played the Clippers here recently, before we move on and talk about Zion Williamson, we're going to take a break. All right. So circling back, one of the most interesting teams, I think people kind of had their nose to this. I think a lot of the people that follow the NBA casually or even in detail suspected that New Orleans, and I think they gave us a big clue

when they kind of took, you know, Phoenix to the wire in the playoffs last year. We had kind of an indicator that this could happen. We suspected that this could happen. But the addition of Zion Williamson has made them a really interesting team. He offensively has looked awesome early on, kind of doing the things that he's always done,

just working his way to, he's either going left or he's going lefter. I heard somebody described Julius Randall like that a few years ago, and I think that's true of Zion too. somehow he just always gets to his left. But defensively, there's some questions that, you know, kind of have an impact on the way the Pelicans are going to play this year and what they might be able to do, how it's going to affect their ceiling.

And Michael Pino, again, in his prolificness, wrote a great article about this. How would you say, Michael, just like from a glance, how would you say that Zion is looking defensively early on in this season? And maybe even, you know, zoom out and talk about how he's, how he's looked defensively in his short time in the NBA. Right. So, I mean, heading into this season, I kind of identified Zion's defense as just this really fascinating variable. Because like you said, the upside for this organization and this specific team coming off of last year's little mini playoff run where they were very competitive against the Phoenix Suns. like it's just a lot of optimism and a lot of momentum but zion as a defender and when we last saw i'm healthy um you know stan van gundy was the head coach of uh of the new Orleans pelicans and he

went out of his way multiple times to sub tweet zion's um poor effort and engagement on the defensive end and that was a little curious because coming out of college um and as a prospect uh he's just this athletic specimen who really impacted the game on that side of the ball, making highlight plays, protecting the rim, almost like, I mean, just the Mac, there was effort to the max on closeouts, et cetera. And so to not see that two years ago was a little concerning. And then you fast forward to now, and it's just, it's just this question mark that kind of hovers. And when you watch the NBA playoffs, teams and offenses, it's just become a game of trying to identify mismatches and hunting weak points and attacking.

And so if Zion is that player who opponents are just, they see a bull's eye on him, like the sons did with Luca last year, as the Timberwolves did with John Morant, you can go on down the list, then I think that their ceiling kind of lowers a little bit. And so far in just a really small sample size, like you see some flashes of brilliance out of Zion, and you see kind of what he was in 2021 as well, which isn't very encouraging. And it's understandable because he's working himself back physically. But he could be, should be this, I don't know if lockdown defender is the right term, but he has the quickness and the athleticism and the strength to guard four or five positions.

and what the organization is really trying to get him to do is be that guy who can switch out on the perimeter and just not get beat immediately and contain the ball, keep himself between his man and the basket. And there are possessions this season where that just has not even come close to happening. And it's a little concerning. But again, it's early. And I still think the upside is there for him. And it's just one of those things that could go either way. And I'm really interested to see how kind of the chips fall for him. Yeah, you mentioned pulling some of the clips and some of like the symptomatic.

We were talking about the hospital theme earlier. Some of the, these sort of symptoms of his like bad defensive behavior. It's very true that like if you go back and you watch him in college and this is a conversation I've had with like draft people with scouts about it's like I've had a lot of like, am I losing my mind? Did I miss remember that? Like because and then it kind of I think segues into a conversation about what's the difference between raw disruptive athleticism that's just. sort of mildly instinctive at the college level because we know college possessions don't go as deep. The schemes aren't as sophisticated. The players aren't as good. It's less demanding in general. So somebody that's just athletic can kind of get by and do a

whole lot of damage. And I've had to wonder to myself, is that what's going on with Zion? But it doesn't really seem so. How much of it do you think is effort or where do you think, where do you think like the key symptom for him in his bad defensive behavior? What is the key thing? What's the common denominator? It's a really good question. I mean, the number one thing when you talk to people with the Pelicans, the number one thing he needs to work on and that they need him to be solid in is on ball defense, like containing the ball.

It's not even about rotations on the weak side. It's not even about closing out to shooters and not giving up low buys. It's just like when you switch out on the perimeter, get low, stay in front of your man. And I think I have one clip in there where it was actually the play, that preceded his injury, where he shuts down Jordan Clarkson, I believe it is, on a switch and forces a really difficult shot, blocks it, goes the other way, and then gets a shot blocked and falls, and that's how he hurt his hip. And it's just like plays like that where he forces a tough two

or even just forces the ball handler to give it up without an advantage. Those should be more consistent and they can be. And so I don't know how to diagnose it, when he just gives up a blowby to Royce O'Neill for no reason. And those possessions just are so curious in their head scratching. And that's why I'm so fascinated by this as a variable, because it could really go either way. It's about his effort and his ability to stay locked in

and maybe forget a previous possession where he drove to the basket and was slapped and didn't get a whistle. And he's kind of dragging that onto the defensive side of the floor. all that is just like I feel like all the tools are there. I don't know if I'm missing anything or I'm wrong there, but he should be a pretty good defender. And there are just sequences where he's clearly not. I wonder how much of this is also just the injury history that he's had as well.

And just like the different types of athleticism that there are. Like one thing for, you know, one of the comparisons that I loved in your piece, I think one of the assistant coaches made it was that he could be somebody like Draymond Green, where he can, you know, use his size, his understanding of angles to make up for, you know, just his lack of, well, probably lateral speed, right? Like, that's, if there's one place that you look at Zion and you have some questions, it's probably his lateral quickness and, you know, the strength of his hips.

Like, he, the injury that he went out with earlier this season was a hip contusion. Now, being able to move side to side is very different than, you know, just, you know, just, exploding, leaping off the floor, and going up and down in transition, right? Totally. I think they're very different. I'm really glad you brought up that. Well, A, the types of athleticism thing, because I think people just like overlook that at times. His like straight line speed, as we know, his like one step hop. Like I made a, I made a clip or I put a screenshot on Twitter of him catching an entry pass and he seriously took one step and his head was at the rim. That's the kind of explosiveness that we all know about at this point.

but I've kind of noticed too that like touching on sort of like technique type things it really is and I think this is where you differ from somebody like Draymond I'm always I always kind of cringe when people do that because they sort of are like underrating the like sort of essence of what makes Draymond great and that is like that they grew up in very different body types and like had different challenges like Draymond had to learn to be like an advanced thinker of the game because of his body type and I think once he realized that that was something that he could bank on and get value from, he went to another level. I just don't know.

And then there's like the competitiveness. I don't, you just don't really, that's something that's in a person, I feel like, you know? Like, I just don't feel like I've ever seen Dremont

saunter out to the three point line to sort of lazily. I know John Hollinger called it the YMCA close out. He's still doing those. And something else I noticed in some of Michael's clips is just that like he's just not staying moving. Part of like playing defense is like if you are standing straight up at like a certain moment, NBA players know how to attack that. They know how to attack you being locklegged or and you just see him on closeouts getting beaten by like the, you know, speaking to the point that Michael made about like getting beat by Kelly Olinick off the bounce. That's all about like he's doing his work way too late and getting imbalanced. I don't know.

I just think, do you don't think the Draymond thing is kind of blasphemous to invoke or is that is that Teresa? of whether it's been being like optimistic in a way to motivate Zion. What do you think? I'll say I frame that question to her as do you watch film with Zion of any players where you're like, I would like you to be like this player more so than her being like, oh, he is like Draymond. So yeah, like comparing anyone to Draymond Green defensively is blasphemous in my opinion. He's like top five defenders in the history of the sport.

So I don't think that that should be the bar that he needs to get Zayman. Dion needs to get to, he just needs to be competent because you look at the roster and you look at the pieces that are around him in a playoff series. Like if he can just, like on situations where they are attacking him in ball screens, if he can just like hold it down and put out a fire, I'm just blanking right now on everyone on the New Orleans Pelicans roster for some reason. But they have like a lot of defensive-minded players, Larry Nance Jr. Defensive-minded players in big bodies and length.

And so I think he's in the right environment where he doesn't need to be a Draymond Green. He doesn't need to anchor a defense to win a title. He just needs to like do his part and do his job. You talked about lineup limitations, how that could affect how they play. One of the lineups that you mentioned that I thought was really interesting that we haven't gotten to see yet is Zion, Herb, Brandon Ingram, CJ, and Trey together. Actually, I had written that down before I read your article, so I thought that was a fascinating one that we haven't gotten. to see. I feel like the free safety, like, anchor role is the thing that, like, most fits him as, like, his, his athleticism because he really is, like, a, he's played this way a lot

where instead of, like, shuffling or shuttling with defenders, like, on ball, he's like, I'll give you a little pad, and then I know I can erase the pad, you know, things like that. But it's, like, teams are going to be able to attack that in the playoffs. Yeah, I think that when I, you know, fantasize about a lineup like that, that's small and switchy and versatile. It's more about like how can we maximize Zion on the offensive end and really widen driving lanes for him that don't even need, he doesn't even need driving lanes to be wide to just absolutely obliterate interior defenses. But if they are and, you know, if he's driving and kicking and just forcing like triple teams when he beats his initial assignment from the

perimeter, like I just don't know how you stop those groups. If you have CJ, if you have Brandon in Ingram, if you have Trey Murphy, who might win like the three point contest this season, who's an amazing shooter. And then you have Zion. Like, I don't know how you stop that. So if defensively, that can work. And yeah, like from the weak side, he can be a rim, Zion can be a rim protector. And talking to players on the team, like, they feel confident when, I don't know if they

were just saying this to me, but they feel confident when, you know, they're pressing their man and they get beat. They have confidence in Zion behind them rotating over. And I think that that is an area where his athleticism can really shine above the rim and on the glass. But yeah, like the small lineup just would be a lot of fun if unlocked, I think, because giving Zion space that he's never had before is just like a fantasy of mine. I think that they like, they do a good job of doing something that we kind of talked about last week. Whereas like maintaining your physicality while also, small is so funny to say. It's like the pelicans just have a lot of upward size at every position.

It's like, okay, your two is 610 with a 9-4 standing reach. And then like, you know, but I've been really encouraged by the stuff like the dribble handoff stuff with CJ and the potential like pick and roll stuff. And like doing the flip side of what we talked about where Ben Simmons like won't shoot, won't put pressure on the rim, that feels like a pretty lethal tandem in the playoffs. You get like a three-man game going with like Ingram and CJ and Zion. That's going to be really just him like getting to the baseline and kicking out as like an offense in and of itself. It's going to be really difficult to defend, I feel like.

Even just inverted pick and rolls. I don't know if that's what you were just talking about. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Having CJ comes out a ball screen for Zion, like that's just chaos. And I don't know how you how you slow that down. That could be really fascinating or trying to hide out your worst defender on on Trey. having him set ball screens for Zion.

Like it's just the options are kind of endless there because he's such a special offensive player who could do so many things. Those groups, I hope we get to see them in the postseason. I hope that Zion can kind of hold up on the defensive end. Definitely.

All right. Well, are you guys want to promote anything that you're working on? No, do you want to tease anything? No, not yet. Okay. She's up doing research.

She's back home. comfy pair of Canadian pants, the maple, the maple maven up there, Sirot, Sohea. Michael, good, great to have you on this first pod. I've enjoyed your work so far. Is there anything that you wanted to use for you go? No, I mean, thanks so much for having me. This was a blast. And I wrote about the Nets, as you mentioned.

I wrote about Zion. I guess you can check both of those out on the ringer.com. And I think I have something coming later this week as well. I won't step on it just yet. But yeah, thanks. This was a lot of fun. Oh, that high value, my efficiency. Many more times.

Many more Steph Curry, 2016 over here, Michael Pena. All right, guys, good to see you. And happy hoops watching, everybody. Later.