The Ringer NBA Show - Houston Trusts the Math, OKC Has a Westbrook Problem, and the Sixers’ Next Steps | The Ringer NBA Show (Ep. 254)

Episode Date: April 24, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor react to the Houston Rockets’ unbelievable 50-point quarter against the Minnesota Timberwolves (0:28) and the Utah Jazz’s dominant victory over the flawed Oklahoma City Thunder (15:32). Then, they discuss the other series in the playoffs (44:18). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Varney and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. Is Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Bomber, A.K.A. Kevin O'Connell, Kahn, Kavanaugh, Kavanaugh, Kavanaugh, Kavanaugh, KATH, KATHLEEN, KATHLEEN, KER KVOLMENT, KERRY, KERRY, KERRY, KERRY, KERRY, KERRY, KERRY, KERRY-SKI-U-M-Y-LISSIS. it was last year, and we were doing a podcast, and one of the wishes that I made, and this was actually last season, I'd have to go back and find that probably should have done that before we did this podcast. But one of my wishes, you will recall, was I wanted to see a 50-point quarter. We got it. I thought it was a possibility given the Warriors at the Rock.

I didn't realize it was going to come in the playoffs. We've been waiting for all that time, and a couple people brought it up to me last night on Twitter. But I said, I want to see, I do think we are in range where one of these teams with the amount of threes that they shoot could actually have a 50 point quarter. Never in a million years would I have thought that a team would be capable of having a 50 point quarter in the playoffs, though. I mean, this is obviously historic. Like I wished for that because it is something that I thought would be extremely far-fetched. Thus, it was throwing a penny in a, you know, in a basin. But there it was last night.

I witnessed it, 50 points. And so in that second quarter, right, Houston was starting to get open shots. It was almost the calm before the storm. Nobody would have expected a 50 point third quarter, but that shows what the rockets are capable of when everything is working. Like they were scoring on isolations, Chris. They were scoring on pull-ups and the pick and roll. They were getting to the lane. They were just completely shredding Carl Anthony Towns in the entire defense.

It was impressive to actually see it when, like you said, last season, whenever it was. It was really just a fantasy. Over four points a minute. That should be impossible. It really should. Around two points per possession as well. It cannot happen in a playoff game. Like what?

Like, that's when things, theoretically, that's when things are at their highest intensity, when you have to treasure the ball every possession, and when you, I mean, usually the game slows down a little bit. That's what they say, right? I just can't. I still can't even believe that that happened, especially against the people were hitting Tom Tibino with it last night, like against the guy that if I said, hey, if you wanted somebody to design your defense, and I know that they have not exactly had. some kind of great defense since he's been in Minnesota. But he was well known through his time in Boston and Chicago as a defensive savant slash guru, whatever you want to say. So not only that, you've got to take the level of competition.

It's not some kind of rat team putting along to end the season who just doesn't even give a crap. It's like it's a Tom Tibino coached playoff team for going to say. Sure. But here's the thing. Like I tweeted this last night. So earlier this season, an NBA executive was talking, we were chatting with each other about the Rockets. And he's like, I love watching them play because they always trust the math, right? And so this series, Houston has had some rocky quarters.

They lost a game to Minnesota in game three. And this first half, they weren't perfect. They were missing some shots. They were normally hit. But they did trust the math. They continued playing their same exact style of play, shooting threes, isolating, really avoiding the mid-range except for a couple instances towards the end of the clock, but they trusted their system. And really, really, that's what led to that quarter, obviously. I mean, it's close without

saying, but there are other teams where they go away from what makes them so good when things aren't going well. Houston has never had that issue. There was one play in the third quarter last night, Chris, that sticks out to me that shows this more than anything else. I believe, I think it was late in the third quarter. Ney-ne got an offensive rebound. and a big man's instinct is to go right back up with that ball, even like four or five feet away from the rim. But he kicked it out to, I believe, PJ Tucker in the corner.

And he hits a wide open three. Players have almost been trained to ignore their instincts, like going back up for an offensive rebound putback, like a little hook shot, and said they're looking for shooters. And that's what I love watching about Houston as well. They always trust the math and they perfectly execute their system. Sometimes it doesn't work out.

But when it does, we get nights like last night in the third quarter. I would normally not do this because the last thing on Earth I would want to do is breach your trust with me and said executive. But I will reveal to everybody that that executive that you spoke to that said, I really love watching the Rockets. They always trust the math was Darry. But if Darrell is listening, I think hashtag trust the math. is a pretty solid slogan for Houston Rockets. In all seriousness, there is the one downside to that, and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention it, is, yes, you do get moments like last night.

Yes, it is nice to celebrate that they never give in. They do what they do, and it either works out or it doesn't, and 90% of the time it works out, okay? But they stuck to their guns last year, and they decided that we're not. going to take what is open, which is the middle of the court. And it buried them. Sure. It buried them against San Antonio decided we're running you off the three point line and we're going to try to protect the rim, which are the two things that you want to do.

And instead of, and that's where Paul comes in, because Paul will demolish you in that open space. You see teams doing it now. You saw it last night. I mean, listen, if it weren't for James Hardin's 22 points in the third quarter, Paul's 15 would have. gotten a lot of shine. A 15-point quarter is a big quarter for somebody. And so Paul is kind of the guy that will get in that open area and make you pay for constantly running them off the line. But they did stick to their guns to a fault last year and it sent them home earlier than maybe they should have been sent home. Is that fair? Yeah, it's definitely fair. And I think that certainly is the difference this year where even in that third quarter last night, I believe they hit three or

four shots from mid-range. The thing is, is like, when it comes to mid-range, it's about when are you taking that shot, right, at the point of the shot clock? Taking a mid-range jumper

with 19, 20 seconds left is not a good shot. It is never a good shot, really. But if you're doing that when there's five seconds left, six seconds left, that's when Houston has the ability to take that shot because of Chris Paul, as you said, but also James Harden.

James Hardin is one of the best scores, you know, stepping back, pulling up from three-point range. He is as well. for mid-range. He just doesn't do it. But they have the capability to do that. We saw a couple of instances of that last night. Yeah, they shot for the game, 61% from the field, 69% from three, I believe, right?

And that was in the third quarter. Nice. 61% 69% from three. Wow. Unbelievable night. Okay, so let's talk about the other side of that, which is Minnesota and the way they have performed. You know, you had all of the, last night was going to be the real test because

Because first game home, even in series that one team typically dominates, I talked about this last week. Game three is the one you can get, especially when you haven't been in the playoffs in over a decade. Your crowd's going to be totally on fire. It's a life or death. You know you cannot go down 03. And so if there is a game in what is typically a non-competitive series, that's the one to get. But you only get that once, right? You only get that fever pitch, that, you know, Hornets Nest type crowd.

You really only get that for game three. And then by game four, that has subsided because it's just, you know, it's a natural flow of things. And so that was the test last night. And they were, I mean, listen, for half, they were right there. And then that third quarter just got absolutely positively bombed out. So what do we make of Minnesota and what has happened in this series and kind of their, trajectory going forward. Like, let's just say what we expect

to happen happens, which is they go and they get popped in game five and so Houston has made quick work of them. What do we look at if we're sitting back with that Minnesota team and forecast the future? I think it's important to keep in mind that there's still a relatively

young team. Towns is 22. Wiggins is 23. It's their first playoff experience for those guys. Maybe it'll be a benefit for them to go through at once, losing in five or six, whatever ends happening in the series. They need more from both those guys, obviously. Wiggins showed what he can be in game three, but then in game four, he showed who he is and what a lot of people view him as, and always will view him as an inconsistent guy who plays up and down defense and scores inefficiently.

That's what Wiggins was in game four, whereas in game three, he was really picking his spots offensively and defending at a pretty high level over the course of the game. And then with Carl Anthony Towns, it's frustrating because he was one of the best offensive centers really ever since he's gotten into the league and you know he didn't have a bad game last night looking at the box score 22 points on 9 or 15 but it doesn't feel like he had a good offensive game there was a lot of missed opportunities he wasn't really creating

on the post as much as you would hope that he would dating more from those young guys especially next season ahead of Jimmy Butler hitting free agency in the year 2019 they're at a crossroads entering this next season more so than probably maybe it feels like they are because of Butler's looming free agency in 2019. Ultimately, what's going to keep him there

is the team being a winner. And for them to be a winner, they're going to need Carl Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins to grow up on the floor perhaps a little bit sooner than they might be able to. I've made some excuses for Towns because he is a guy that can go all the way out to the three-point line and be super effective.

He is just an immense talent. And so some of it, I do blame on teammates and system, given the series that he has had, which the first two games were absolutely abysmal. Any other, quote, star in the league would have gotten absolutely throttled for the games that he put up. I mean, you're talking, I mean, anybody could do what he did, anybody. You could throw any guy from the G league in, and he could get you the numbers that Towns did in the first two games. That being said, I do, well, that's true. It was just bad.

I do wonder, and I want to get your thoughts on this, because you, do draft class every Friday. I have watched these playoffs, and it has made me think long and hard about the upcoming NBA draft, which is littered with big guys. And the fact that they can be made not necessarily irrelevant, but that, you know, you've got the Gober's, who is a putback guy, a rim protector. Same kind of thing on the other side with Capella. Most of these other guys, when you're talking about the NBeds and you're talking about

the Anthony Davis, these. These guys are total freaks of nature who you can throw them the ball 27 feet away from the basket. They can cross you over and get a bucket. But I do wonder, do you look at these playoffs and you look at how big guys, there are many stretches where it's just like, sometimes they're made totally unplayable, like in Whiteside's case before M.B. came back. And then other times, it's like, well, what's the point, right? What's the point of Carl Auntie Towns if we're going to get you four points or whatever the hell it is? Do you look at that and look at the draft and go,

maybe I should recalibrate a little bit because the way the NBA is played right now is just bad for these guys? Sure. Jonathan Chark said something interesting on a pot a couple weeks ago on draft class where he mentioned how maybe the big man that teams desire moving forward is more like the Clint's Capella type. And there's a couple guys in this year's draft

that more resemble that type of player, Robert Williams, a Mitchell Robinson type, a Mo Bamba. I'm not necessarily sold in those guys playing the Capella role. But then again, Capella was drafted in the 20s as well. And he was a project coming in. So sometimes it can be, I loved Capella as a prospect, but it can be hard to predict how good they will be. Because Capella has improved so much in little areas as a screener in terms of defensive positioning. His body has improved. his conditioning is improved, his at-room finishing has gotten better.

Everything's better, and he's in a perfect system for his skill set. That's right. I don't want to knock him, but if Clint Capella, if you sent Clint Capella to another team, you'd never hear from him again. Yes. You would hear from him, but he wouldn't. But it would just be whatever. It would be different.

It would be different than it is in Houston. I mean, he's on the other end of Chris Paul and James Hardin passes. Well, sure, but he's also a terrific defensive player, probably one of the better big men at switching onto guards. That's fair. Camilla can do a lot of things in the floor, and he's a great rebounder, and he's gotten better as a passer. So that's where it's like, you look at some of the guys on the draft, it's hard to predict progress in those areas. Like, taking a great athlete doesn't guarantee that they improve little skills like passing and screening, which is the question with someone like Mo Obama.

But I still think big men matter, Chris. I still, I know you hate DeAndre Aiton, but there's still value in having a scoring big man. If Carl Anthony Towns becomes more consistent on the defensive end of the floor, if he, if he continues making progress on that end, and he continues being one of the best offensive centers in basketball, there's value in that. There's a lot of value. Of course,

of course, there's value. But those guys that you've mentioned that have had real success, these guys are rim protectors. Gobert, Embed, Capella, Dremond,

these guys that are playing that role, even Durant when they threw him at the five last year, for God's sakes. These guys are guys that are really protecting the rim. Yeah, And that's their greater value than necessarily what they bring offensively. I'm saying the offensively minded big man. It's Embed and it's Davis are the ones that are having the high level of success.

And that's because you can throw the ball to them 30 feet from the basket, and they very well may just drive in on you. You're right. There does need to be a room protection element. I mean, you see that across the league, whether a guy's a shot blocker or not. Like, obviously, Joel Embed is one of the game's best shop lockers. We see it with him. And with Boston, you have Al Horford, who's more of a positional defender.

Even in Toronto, Yanker Pertil, a young player, has shown these pretty good defensively, even though he's had some rougher moments this series. There does need to be a rim protection element. I do think you're right about that, Kurs. All right, let's move on to the other game that took place last night, which is the Utah Jazz and the Oklahoma City Thunder. It was during the off season that you and I had this discussion. get to the jazz in a moment. First, let's focus on Oklahoma City because they are the team

that was put together in the offseason. And I think blew the doors off of everybody in terms of how in the world. They lost Kevin Durant and then within an offseason, look now. They've got Paul George. They've got Carmelo Anthony. They have already built something that is going to be, that is going to have to be dealt with. And the big discussion that we and everybody else in the free world had is how is it all going to fit? but who's going to play the, quote, Bosch role, as it were. And I think we agreed that that needed to be Carmelo Anthony. And here we are.

Their season is, I mean, they're now one game away from going fishing. And they still never figured it out, right? Like, I mean, they didn't. They just didn't. It never took. It never, like there were the early struggles of those Miami teams. And there have been early struggles. of others that have been thrown together,

even when LeBron first went with Kyrie and Kevin Love. It's just figuring out how it all works together, and here we are with them one game away from elimination, and you watch last night, and it's like, okay, if you want to say Carmelo's the Bosch roll, it's like he just takes a bunch of threes and he misses all of them, right? You know what I mean? Like, I guess that was the difference.

Bosch hit him. Remember when Chris Bosch? Like out of nowhere we're starting to shoot threes. And that was like a shot in the early 2010s. And we kept on. And you and hi, and we kept on saying, it's still the talent.

And if it ever clicks, well, he ain't got much time for it to click, Kev. I think, I think we've got to come to the realization. It ain't going to click. No,

it's not. They are who we thought they were, really. They never became who we thought they could be. It's sad in a way, especially seeing someone like Carmelo Anthony. He just, he can't hit a shot.

He's had, He's had so many games this season where he's in O-Four. I know I think it was against the Warriors earlier this month during the regular season when he was like O-Fra-8 or O-Fer-9 from three. He's had way too many of these games. It's just kind of sad to watch. Well, here's the thing. And I bet me and you are actually going to be on the same page on this regarding Sam Presti.

Okay. So they moved. It was a second-rounder, Cantor, and McDermott is what they gave up to get Carmelo. and I know there's a bunch of revisionist history about this. You do that again a hundred times, wouldn't you? You do it. Of course. You take a crack at it.

Someone put it like this to me last year when they traded for Paul George. This is a quote, no risk trade for them. And it was the same thing for going for Carmelo Anthony as well. And granted, yeah, it turned out that it was a risk because Victor Lovete Thievo was turned into an all-NBA guy who might get some like top five MVP votes. So it turned out maybe it wasn't the best choice, but all it even wouldn't. have necessarily gotten the opportunity to turn in that player. It's hard to say.

It's a perfect Monday morning quarterback, though, because I do think, I think you can have two opinions on this, right? A, they would have been, I believe they would be better if they would have never made that trade. I do. Yeah. On the other hand, I think, right? Sure.

But I don't, I can't kill the guy. I can't kill the guy for making the trade. Of course not. But I think in retrospect, they would have been better. And I say that because there was a game earlier this year at Golden State. where Carmela was out. And the Westbrook George thing looked like old Westbrook Durant thing. And they just punked out the Warriors.

And they kind of, it was like having the two of them could create this devastation. And they were both simultaneously awesome. But when you throw in that third guy, that's not a role player at all. He's just not a role player. It made everything, it screwed everything up. It really did. I think they would have, I think if they would have sat Carmelo Anthony, they'd be better off in this series. I know that sounds crazy, but I believe that.

It doesn't, though, because they've had certain stretches where they have been better without Mello. Remember when they beat Golden State earlier this year, Mello got hurt early in the game. Jeremy Grant played big minutes, and he was awesome. So maybe, Thunder fans have criticized Billy Dunovan a lot. I was reading some stuff last night. Some fans are calling from him to be fired in one. whatnot. I think Billy Donovan's a good coach, but I do think if there's one thing you can knock him for is maybe he should just pull the plug on Carmelo Anthony and say, you know what, we're in

this to win this. In order to do it, our best hope is with Jeremy Grant, because Carmelo Anthony doesn't get it done on defense, doesn't get it done as a passer. Grant is a far more versatile player on both ends of the floor. Defensively, he can switch. Offensively, he can shoot threes or roll to the rim, lob dunks. He just does more. He's a better player today, which sounds insane to say, but it's the truth. I've talked about this a lot throughout the years. It's not necessarily the individual talented how it all fits together. And, you know, I lived through this years ago.

There is nobody in the free world that would have rather had, if I lined them both up, would have rather had Tashon Prince than Rudy Gay. But the Grizzlies made a trade and they acquired Tashon Prince, and it enabled them to become a team that was a lockdown defensive team. it put more on Markasol and Mike Conley, who were more efficient players. Like those shots weren't going to, if you took Rudy Gay's 18 shots off the board, well, like six of them or eight of them were going to Tayshan. The other ones were going to go to more efficient players

and it enabled them to make a run to the Western Conference finals. The same thing goes with Oklahoma City, I believe. It's the way it all fits together. I honestly feel that way about Minnesota and Wiggins. There are these guys that are so immensely talented that it's hard to play great team basketball with. It's Rudy Gay. It's Jeff Green. It's Andrew Wiggins.

There's a ton of them. And they are tantalizing. And they are mega athletes. And they are outstanding individual players. And Carmelo is kind of like, if I was having like a, you know, he's like the godfather of them, right? And then you branch off and then, right, you know, so, so Carmelo Anthony beget, Rudy Gay, who we get, Andrew Wiggins, who we get Jeff Green. And they're all kind of like that same, you know, offense first, small forward. And I think it's, I think it's very, very difficult to play like cohesive team basketball with guys like that.

And I don't know. I mean, like I said, I don't think you can bang Presti for taking the shot. But clearly they would have been better off if they still had what they had and just had never made that deal. And as you're talking about how the pieces don't necessarily fit perfectly together for Oklahoma City, I'm thinking about Utah and how they all seem to fit at just, it's perfect. It's a perfect fit for this team. And they've been able to expose those holes in Oklahoma City, especially last night in the third quarter when they built their lead to open the half.

And they were just picking apart Oklahoma City's defense. And Ricky Rubio getting easy penetration. Joe Engels getting open shot after open shot. This Utah team really just fits together, no matter who they plug in. Whether it's Rorye O'Neill coming off the bench who has been terrific. Jay Crowder, who still can't hit a shot, but he's been better defensively. All the pieces fit together for Utah, and it's a joy to watch them. They really fit together.

And I will say that, you know, people can bust up Billy Donovan or, or Carmelo Antae, whoever they want to, right? The guy that deserves the blame is Russ. I'm a Russ guy. He's been awful. You cannot have your guy leading you in field goal attempts, which is, he's taken 79 field goal attempts, and he has shot 37% from the field. He also guides an offense that went last night.

I mean, this is on him, man. He, number one, the fourth foul destroyed him, right? And then he was just wildly out of control. throughout that game. And he is the guy that gets the ball most of the time last night coming out of the net. They went 22 minutes without an assist. 22 minutes, Kevin.

That's like impossible. There are five guys on the court. Like how did you not have a pass that led to a basket for 22 minutes? And so, you know, Russ, he's just, he's having. a terrible series. He really has. He really has. And when he talked all that shit, you can't, you can't go out and be bad again. And that's, that's my issue with a lot of Thunder fans' complaints about Billy Donovan. Like last time I, I just was browsing the Oklahoma City subreddit. And these are, these are just some of the comments. This is just a couple that I read. Quote, I'm sick of

Billy Donovan in this pickup ball offensive scheme. Quote, this is another one. This should be the wake-up called a fire, Billy, and implement an offensive system that creates open looks, not bricks. And then And there's a third one, quote, no ball movement, no off the ball play, no offensive strategy slash rotation changes. What is Billy doing? And I understand some of the concerns with the offensive system. But my question back would be, could it be that part of the issue with the offense is Russell Westbrook's unwillingness to change? Because Billy Donovan was an adaptable coach in Florida. He ran a couple different schemes there over the years when it changed.

But most of them had motion concepts. And he's talked about that a lot to the media. about how Oklahoma City needs to have better ball movement, better player movement. So if he's saying that to the public with a microphone in his face, what do you think he's telling his players? But the thing is, is he can't install that system because the star player, Westbrook, who is unbelievable, he is a fantastic player and deserves a load of credit from improving as much as he has over the years.

But Westbrook still has that bad habit of needing to pound the ball, drive into traffic, and just really do whatever he wants. And I think Westbrook is still the primary problem with them not being able to take that next leap. Because this team should be so much better than it is. Westbrook needs to written about it's 100 times. We've talked about it 100 times. He needs to become a better off ball player and a more consistent defender. He needs to become a smarter overall player.

And it's so frustrating because he has it. He can do it. We've seen little, we've seen flashes of this in the past. especially in the early days of Oklahoma City, Chris. It's there. He just needs to want to do it. And that's what's so frustrating to me. Well, and he can playmate.

I mean, listen, he averaged over a triple-dub. He can. I mean, it's just a matter of... He's gotten so much better at playmaking, too, over the years. From what he came into the league to what he is now, it's remarkable. I know. And, well, here's the thing. I saw our buddy, Zach Harper, put this up last night, and this was shocking.

Say whatever you want about net ratings and whether you should be... be able to extrapolate these to make a real point. But I think it is at least interesting to note that in the four games that these two teams have played thus far, the net ratings for Russell Westbrook are minus 13 points on court plus almost 13 off the court, a 26 point difference. Rubio plus 16 when he's on the court, minus 15 when he's off the court, a 31st. one point swing. And so those are, I mean, it is just, you almost never see a player, the caliber of Russell

Westbrook, there's almost no circumstance where I could fathom that his team would be better with him off the court. Like that just how, how is that possible? Especially when the rest of their team sucks, you know what I mean? Like, they don't have, they got those guys. They're right. Like, once you get past their starting lineup, like, you cannot. tell me that you should be better with Jeremy Grant,

Ray Felton, Alex of Brains, and whoever the hell. All that stuff is tough, though, because Russ is on the court when Utah's other best players are on the court, too. Whereas when Raymond Felton's in the game, it's in all likelihood going against reserves. And that's just last night, but over the course of the full season, too. But still, I don't care who he's going against. Like, the fact that when you're off the court, your team is winning is banana.

Sure. All right, I got to add this about Russ. Like, you and I right now, we're bashing Russ, but he's an unbelievable player who has made unbelievable progress ever since he entered the league. And that's just, that's where I don't think it's unfair to expect a little bit more from him in areas that are not super hard to improve when it comes to cutting off ball or screening or running through screens. That's something that you want to do, right?

defending is something you want to do, which he said after game three, I'm going to shut that shit off. And he comes out, start a game four, and he's putting full court pressure. A lot of these things are about wanting to do it, and I just wish he wanted to do those things more. That's all.

Okay, because I do have something to bitch about what? This is ESPN. And listen, and that's the whole organization as a whole. But them posting that video last night, did you see this after the game? I did. Russell Westbrook said he was going to shut that shit down, look at this hustle.

Yeah. Like, that's basically what it said. And then it was like a highlight clip of him playing defense. And I'm like, number one, they got their ass kicked. And number two, he didn't shut anything down. And there was three, there was like three files in the video. Yeah, I was like, what is going on here? And could anybody even mention the score here?

Like, I get the whole, like, you know, sometimes the smaller markets have a chip on their shoulder. They're not on TV all that much. But, like, that is the perfect example of, like, If I'm a jazz fan, I'm like, what the fuck is, what? How is there a highlight video of Russell Westbrook after this game? But you want to know why it was created because 2,600 retweets over 10,000 likes because there's a lot of fans out there who are going to eat that up. And they sure as hell did.

No, no. Because Russell Westbrook has, you know, Russell Westbrook has, I get it. Has his big supporter to, look, that's why I just said what I said a little bit earlier. He's an unbelievable player. But that doesn't mean you can't have. ask for more greatness from him, right? Oh, you're scared of, you're scared of the Westbrook stands. Yeah, you are.

Yeah, you are. I'm trying to find common ground, Chris. Because when it comes to bashing Westbrook, nobody's saying he's a bad player. He's a terrific player. He's really unbelievable. But that doesn't mean that you can't ask for more from him or any other player for that. LeBron tried improving his free throw percentage and his three-point shot last off season.

And he's LeBron James. If LeBron is trying to make improvements, every other player should be two, including Russell Westbrook. Have you ever run into Westbrook stands? In person? Never. Never. No, no, no. I mean that on the Internet.

Oh, on the Internet. I thought you meant in real life. Oh, I've never dealt with that hive. Look, I've written a lot of Russell Westbrook articles. Don't even speak to me after I said. Yeah. Don't even speak to me after I've set off the hinky hive. There's nothing like that.

I tell you this, I said, I was talking about. my buddy last week, you know what I need? Because I said something years ago about Rihanna and I got the Navy mad and obviously I see the Beyonce stuff and I'm like, here's what I need to happen. Because I need Sam Hinky to go online and I need him to tweet that like, I don't know, like, Beyonce's not the real queen. Rihanna is and F. Justin Bieber and just get like all the Navy and the beehive and the believers and these Hinky cultists.

I need them all to like all arguing and then like just the internet blow up because like it's it's like a it's a subculture of which I was totally unaware. But I'm now alerted to the fact that Westbrook has these. I didn't know. Maybe I just never slandered him. Yeah, there are there are. It's really, I mean, what you're touching on is about fandom over facts, the online phenomenon that's really going across the world. Put it this way. When you write an article with the headline, the thunder have a Russell Westbrook problem. You get it.

You get the, and it's fine. Understood. I feel good about my Russell Westbrook take that he can be better than he already is. Well, I'll tell you this. You know what take we should feel the best about? Anybody can go back and do this, and I did it just to make sure what I believed happened happened. There were two in the middle of July podcast that you and I did, one in person in Las Vegas and then another after. And we are the Donovan Mitchell hipsters.

We are. There's no way around this. We are the. the Donovan Mitchell hipsters and we have the damn audio to prove it way before the rest of the world was on this. There's two in July of

2017. I had seen him in the Utah Summer League. I saw him in Vegas Summer League and you had written about him and in fact there is a one moment where you go on a monologue you go on a monologue talking about how you thought he was one of nine

players that could end up being the best player. Now people can say who gives a damn about Summer League. Yeah, we can overreact to Summer League. You remember when whoever, Andrea Boniani or whoever was great in Summer League and, you know, there was, you and I were both on this kid way back when. And I think it's fair to say that while we were Donovan Mitchell hipsters, and I went back and looked on Twitter, I had people in, like, October that tweeted me,

like, find somebody that loves you like Chris Vernon, loves Donovan Mitchell. So his success now has made me so happy. I know it has you too, but 110 points in four playoff games, the most by a rookie since Jordan had 117 in his first playoff games. I think it is fair to say, though we were Mitchell hipsters, though we were both huge believers in this kid's level of success going forward, it is unfathomable how good he is, how quickly. I hate to toot my own horn, but like seeing Mitchell,

shine the way he has, has me like Tiger Woods fist pumping like in the 2000s. Like that's what it's like. It just feels so good to see him excelling. But I gotta say this, not to like, you know, just rain on our own parade here, but I had him ranked 10th and that's

higher than I believe most outlets had him, but it's like, that's still too low. What was it that held me back or held others back from just totally falling head over heels in love with him as a prospect? Granted, you're right. Like we said, you know, I wrote about him. I said he'll beat the steel from the 11 to 17 range. You're right. We loved them in

Summer League. But it's like, you and I still probably would have taken a Dennis Smith ahead of him. If we were the GM drafting at eight or nine, we still might have taken Jonathan Isaac ahead of him, right? So it's like, to me, that's a lesson. The next time there's a Mitchell, I don't think there's a Mitchell in this year's draft necessarily. But if there's a guy that's a Mitchell that you're like, man, why is this guy right? 20 by every outlet? I think he can become the best in the draft. I don't, I think for me, it's a lesson.

Don't be afraid of those feelings, right? Like, don't look at it objectively still, but also don't hesitate to do something completely different than everybody else. I said this to my buddy the other day when we were talking about hoops. Now, listen to the, because obviously we're talking about the Grizzlies and the pick that they're going to have at the top of the draft, right? No matter. Right? It's all the debate. When your team stinks, that's what you end up talking about. And I said this jokingly, but I'm not so sure it should necessarily be a joke. If you have an insanely high level, a high level player in this upcoming draft, right? People are going to scoff at this, and you may scoff at this, but I'm being serious. You know what I've got to find out about all these guys? What's up? Who plays an instrument?

Yeah. Okay. I think it's a thing. Because Jaylen. But I'm biased. No, Jalen Brown. Right. right, is like this unbelievable musician. Okay. And you know what makes me think of that is when you said, what did we miss? It's like so many times what you miss is like how a guy is wired. You know, we joke about Danny Aange's, you know, brain doctor or whatever he is. But like, there is something to that. And the instrument thing, the reason it made me think of it the other day, it was,

now nobody watched this show because I've mentioned it to a bunch of people and nobody watched it. So set all-star weekend on Saturday. On TNT, they start early in the day and they run all manner of these different shows, right? Like, you know, like the Shaq and Kobe conversation and like best plays of the year and whatever, right? One of the shows they did, and I've never heard anybody mention it, but I happened to be sitting on my couch on a Saturday afternoon when this was going on. They had a talent show. Do you know what I'm talking about? No. It was basically NBA players show their talents, right? And then, like, Shaq and whoever were, like, judging them on their talents.

So, like, one guy would sing and one guy would tell jokes. And I remember, who was it? Terrence Ross. Terrence Ross was like a professional-level gamer, right? Like video games. And so they had him come in and play against, you know, some professional game or whatever. Donovan Mitchell was on that. Oh, he was on that show.

drummer, right? He played drums. and he put on the headset and he said, I'm going to play what was like my favorite song and the song I learned to play drums with. And he played Danny California by the red hot chili peppers, right? I was like, what? You're right?

And so it made me think the other day because I was saying something to somebody about Jalen Brown and I was like, maybe we just need to find a guy that played an instrument. And I said, well, I'll be damned. I said, Donovan Mitchell, I saw him playing an instrument. I said, we just need to figure out who plays an instrument. Who plays an instrument because that's two for two when I'm going, these playoff guys who like,

they're both guys that have gone absolutely off and become stars in the playoffs. And when Jalen Brown was drafted three, people went, what the hell? And when Donovan Mitchell, now in retrospect, we go, how in the hell did he fall? And I will tell you that's one thing they both have in common. If you ever see them interviewed, they are incredibly articulate, smart kids. and they're both musicians. So that's what I'm going to do. I'm doing my research to find out

which of these high-level players plays an instrument. Right now, I'm tweeting DeAndre, do you know how to play any musical instruments asking for Chris Vernon? Right now I'm tweeting him that. Okay. I was reading it, do you know how to play any musical instruments asking for Chris Vernon?

Thank you. Okay. Hopefully DeAndre gets back to me. I'll do some research on that for you, Chris. but if DeAndre plays, if he like shreds on guitar does that change your opinion of DeAndre Aynne?

100% It would change my chair. I'll be all in. Because it's the last thing I expect. I will be all in. I don't know. Maybe there's something. Maybe there's something to it.

I don't know. Like the discipline that it takes to become, you know, a musician. It's not the end all be all, right? I'm just saying it's interesting that these two kids both shocked me with their musical. abilities, and they are both guys that have become stars in the playoffs.

I think there's two elements to it. For one, you're right. The way these guys tick is really the key to figuring it all out. And with Mitchell, you can never say it's obvious, but we're certainly a lot of indicators that Mitchell had it, right? And that was part of the appeal for me with him, you know, and assessing him as a prospect. Never mind, his level of improvement from year one to year two at Louisville. It felt like he had it, and, boy, he certainly does.

every interview he does, every post-game interview, the grace in which he really talks about his teammates and how it's really not about him as much as it's the team. And granted, he also does the zipper emoji stuff every time he has a good game. But Mitchell's confidence, his style of play, really fantastic. And then I don't know if we can turn to you, Isaac, but I'm curious for your take on musicians

and maybe how that can affect other areas of life, whether it's sports or something else. I think there is something to maybe in terms of the ability to learn or pick up new things? Sure. I mean, I don't know. All I can tell you is I play six, seven instruments, but I am not in the NBA. So I don't know how much that's linked.

You know what I mean? You still have to have the physical ability. You still have to have the talent. No, this is what I believe. And I think you'll agree with this. I was like, it takes real discipline. Yes. Yeah.

And that is in this day and age, when you were talking about young people and drafting them, that discipline it can carry over. I'm not trying to become a psychologist here, but I'm telling you that if you have that ability, if you have that discipline to be able to sit down and learn an instrument, instead of giving up on it, because when you are 19 or you are 20, and they're throwing millions of dollars in your pockets,

and now you're traveling from city to city to city, in order to become great, there is a discipline to it. It's funny. You go back in time to Westbrook, right? And I remember when Michael Beasley came here last year. We were talking about, oh, David Fisdale was talking about Russell Westbrook and his MVP candidacy. And he said, you know what? And he said, I could have told you the minute I met that kid that he was going to be a star. And he said, I'm not doing this to speak ill of Bees because I love Beasley. And he said, but we drafted Michael

Beasley number two overall. And he said, and we were going to go to a morning work out in Vegas for their draft picks, right? He said, we show up at like 8.30 and he's like, Westbrook has been there for an hour and a half and he is pouring with sweat. And he's like, and Beasley like never showed up. He said, one of our guys had to go get him up out of the hotel. Like they had to go wake him up. And he was like, oh, no. But he was saying that not as a demerit to Beasley as much as a credit to Westbrook, but it is one of those things, right? From the moment Westbrook walked in the NBA, he had a discipline about him to where he's in Las Vegas, Nevada, and when all these other guys are going out, you know, they got money for the first time and they're

in the best place in the world to have a bunch of money and go act like a kid. He's there at the gym, you know, at 630 when he doesn't have to be. And so I do think that's the way it, right? that if you're good at instruments, that means that you stuck with it and that you have a level of discipline in your life or that ability. You agree? I think that's true, right? Certainly. Yeah. Agreed.

All right, Kev, we'll get right back to it. But first, we've got to hear from ZipRecruiter hiring. Every business needs great people and a better way to find them. Something better than posting your job online and just praying for the right people to see it. ZipRecruiter knew there was a smarter way so they built a platform that finds the right job candidates for. you. ZipRecruiter learns what you're looking for, identifies the people with the right experience, and invites them to apply for your job. These invitations have revolutionized how you find your next hire. In fact, 80% of employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site in just one day.

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com slash Ringer NBA. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. And now, back to the show. All right, let's touch on these other ones real quick, Kev. All right? I read the craziest thing this morning. You know, the Wizards closed that game against Toronto. the other night with John Wall, Kelly Ubre,

Otto Porter, Markief Morris, and Gortat because Beal got fouled out. Kara Lawson said this. That closing lineup, which is not some kind of abnormal lineup, you would figure that might be the lineup if

Beal was sitting. Wall, Ubre, Porter, Morris, Gortat. Those five players were never in the game together as a unit the entire season. How is it possible? How is it possible?

That's what they closed with and won that game with. And they had never been on the court together as a collection of five players. Can you believe that? That is very surprising. The six foul on Beale was bullshit, but they ended up winning that game. The Wizards have been a radically different team at home than they've been on the road. Do you now give them a chance against Toronto, or do you think it was, hey, they won their home games. They'll probably win their other home game

but they don't get a game seven at home. You think that series goes seven? I don't think they're winning game five. That's for sure. Then they win game six at home. Especially with the energy that's going to be in that Toronto crowd for game five. I don't see how Washington can steal game five. But certainly

the Raptors have been worse than they were in the regular season and the Wizards have been better than they were in the regular season. That's a really basic thing to say, but you know what? The Raptors really miss Van Vleet. They do. Well, sure. Yeah. I think Van Ville kind of a glue to their bench. But Washington has been better.

Beale and Wall are playing at a really high level right now. Granted, like you said, it was home games. Toronto sometimes falls back into that old habit where they just, it's like flashbacks to the past with some of the isolation habits that they fall into. That's a little concerning, but they also looked great in games one and two, right? They looked like the new Toronto Raptors. So I do think Toronto wins game five, and I think they still win the series. but Washington has certainly really closed the gap.

I tweeted this the other day. I think this kind of says just the way I feel about the series. If you forgot everything that happened in the regular season, wouldn't this feel more like a 3-6, Chris, or a 4-5 series? It feels pretty evenly matched to me. I think they all feel pretty evenly matched, honestly. Buck Celtics does. Obviously the Sixers have pulled away from the heat.

All right, let me use Google Assistant because I'm going to ask you about one of two different series. If it's heads, I'm going to ask you first about the Celtics and the Bucks. If it's tails, I'm going to ask you about the pelicans and what we believe to be the Warriors. A Google, flip a coin. All right. You got tails. All right, tails it is.

All right. So I presupposed that the Warriors are going to win the series. Tell me you agree on that, right? Yeah. Okay. All right. So we agree that they're going to win the series. That being said, the question that everybody's talking about,

about is, did you get done watching the Pelicans, bomb out the Blazers, and think they can put the fear of God in the Warriors and or beat them? So, touched on this a little bit in my article on Monday, Chris. I don't think they're not going to beat Golden State, but

it's certainly going to be a challenge for both teams, because for New Orleans, what you did aggressively on defense by, you know, trapping and blitzing to the pick and rolls of Portland. Portland ran, you know, like the top five most amount of pick and rolls in the league

this year, where it's Golden State doesn't run a ton of pick and rolls. So New Orleans' aggressive strategy maybe won't have as much of importance in the series against Golden State. And for the Warriors, they still need to figure out ways to score. With just

Kevin Durant and Clay Thompson, I know Stefan Curry, which sounds stupid to say. But it's kind of the truth in a way. Without Steph, New Orleans has a chance to get a game or two. They're not going to I don't think they pushed the seven, but it is worth saying Anthony Davis is arguably, I mean, I'd take KD, but you could make an argument and I wouldn't necessarily fight back with you that Anthony Davis could be the best player in the series. No team.

I can say, hey, the Warriors don't have something great to put on him. Nobody does. There is nothing great to put on him. There is no great, you know, there's no great way to guard him. He's too, he's too ridiculous and he's too unique. You know what I mean? There is no great opposition for him. Well, that's one of the games.

So we think the Warriors, I mean, they're like an 11-a-half-point favorite. They're going to take care of business and knock off the spurs tonight, right? They should, yeah. Okay. All right, the other two. Early game is going to be Celtics bucks. I think the Celtics get this one. I do against the bucks.

Obviously had a shot at the buzzer against them in the last game. This has played to form in terms of the home team winning. and I think it continues to play to form. I think I'd be surprised if the Celtics didn't win tonight. What about you? Yeah, I still consider it really a toss-up, but Marcus Smart returning will be an interesting X-factor for Boston with his defensive versatility.

It means probably a lot less Shane Larkin, I would think, or it could mean less shemi-ogele. We'll see how Brad Stevens structures his rotations, but Marcus Smart is going to really help the Celtics returning to the court with his ability to defend not just guards, but bigger guys. Marcus is one of the most versatile defenders in the league. And then obviously Boston has a significant home court advantage as well. And here is the one where we're going to find out if the young Sixers team that has looked so dynamite has the killer instinct to go ahead and knock this off.

You know, say whatever you want about the heat. They're a tough team, right? They got a bunch of tough guys and their backs are totally against the wall. Their seasons on the line. So you'd imagine you'll get whatever is their grand slium effort out of them. but they're also a team that's given up 128 points in you know

in multiple games this particular series do you think the Sixers dispose of the heat or do we get a game six back in Miami and all of a sudden that becomes you know a scary proposition where you might have to

play a game seven I think it's over I think Philly playing in front of their crazy home crowd with Josh Richardson perhaps being limited from Miami with that shoulder injury. I think Philly closes this game out. I believe it was Ben Simmons yesterday or today at a shootaround,

said something along the lines of like age isn't really a factor with this team. And it really isn't. They're a young team. We just talked a little bit earlier about Carl Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins is a youth for those players. With Ben Simmons, it's not a question. He's 21 years old and one of the smartest players in basketball. He rarely ever makes mistakes.

Joel Lambede, granted some of the same. Sometimes he'll be a little bit clumsy with turnovers, but Embed's still another high-level player with a deep understanding of defense and angles and decision-making. They have a lot of smart young players, Dario Sarich, playing professional basketball for like eight years now and you go back overseas. Sarich, another high IQ player. JJ Redick, everybody up and down that roster, Philly has a blend of veterans and youth where I think they close us out tonight. And perhaps they really do flex tonight against Miami and show that they are a real threat. Interesting.

I think it's an opportunity for them to do that. I know you're high on the guy. It's a killer for Josh Richardson if he's super limited, right? To have him out for Miami. That would be a big blow to them. And here's a thing. It's on the road, you know, with a chance to tie up that series or Miami has a chance to tie it up.

And Philadelphia goes seven for 31 from three and turns it over 26 times and still wins. like, that team going seven for 31 from three, turning it over 26 times and still winning and scoring 106 points is just improbable. Joe Allen beat only two for 11, eight turnovers, yeah. I mean, that shows you how much better they are. I mean, you can't F up worse. I mean, seven for 31 and turning it over 26 times and winning is an extremely difficult thing to do, extremely difficult.

For sure. I think what I'm most impressed by with Philly is early in the season, and not even just early, up until maybe, basically, around the deadline, Philly routinely collapsed at the end of games. I mean, if you look at their net rating quarter by quarter, it was like plus 10 in the first, plus two in the second, even in the third, and like minus eight in the fourth. Like, it was pretty consistent.

But then the second half of this season and now in the playoffs, they've gotten so good at closing games and elevating their play in the fourth quarter. They've figured out playing their connected style on both ends how to close games. And that's something, again, like young teams usually struggle with that like they did early in the season. But they don't feel like a young team. You didn't know Joelle and B. was only 24 or Simmons was only 21 and that Sarge is, you know, still overseas. He's actually not playing. He still hasn't come over yet.

If you didn't know those things, you would think this team has been around. They've been together for a lot of years. And I think that's a testament to their growth over the course of the season and Brett Brown's terrific head coaching job that he's done. Oh, there's no doubt about that. He has done a great job. I lauded him last year, another season, obviously, where they lost a bunch of games. And if you just were ever in an arena, though they put out a bad product for a lot of years,

if you were ever in the arena, a lesser man would have been totally beaten down by losing almost 300 games. he coached them hard every night, no matter. Yes, he did. And to see him on the other end of this. Like, I mean, you have to do the pregame interviews. You have to do the post game interviews. And after all of those losses, and you really just have to be able to swallow your pride and know that if I see this through, you know, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And that light is obviously insanely bright right now.

But I give him a lot of credit, man. He's a coach's coach, because no matter the hand he was dealt, he coached those kids hard, and now he's getting to reap the rewards. You know, he deserves this. That's what used to annoy me when people used to be like, oh, the losing culture in Philadelphia. I was like, the style these guys are playing is something that they can build on, right? I think they've always... Hey, hold on. Let's take a little bit of a step back.

Most of these guys that weren't part of the losing. Sure. Let's be fair. Okay. Joe L. M. B'd, Ben Simmons, and JJ Reddick, you know, didn't lose 300 games. What I'm getting at, though, is that they laid a foundation with their system. They were shooting a lot of three-pointers in 2013 and 2014. They were really moving the ball offensively.

They were playing the same, basically the same defensive system that they do now. Not a lot has changed in terms of the system. But, yeah, to your point, what has changed is the players, instead of Nick Stouskas taking nine-threes a game, it's J.J. Reddick. and Marco Bellanelli. Right? I mean, the players have gotten better. Well,

and no offense to T.J. McConnell, Kevin, but Ben Simmons starts now. Well, that's kind of what I mean. But, like, the system was there.

Brepp Brown's coaching never should have been knocked or anything like that. And, no, I don't think it was. I don't think anybody ever blamed him for them losing.

I don't know. Maybe they didn't blame him specifically, but there was this thought that, like, oh, there's a losing culture there. They're not trying to win games.

It's like, yeah, maybe they're not trying to win. to win games by adding great players, but Brett Brown is certainly still laying a foundation that's good for player development. And we're seeing that with some of the guys who are hanging around from his teams that won 19, 18, 10 games. Those are some bad years. Hey, you surprised Fultz gets no run at all? We talked and we thought he might be a factor. I think Brown handled it perfectly in the first three games. He's the series. Fultz played the first half,

14 minutes, 5 minutes, 4 minutes And then in the second half he hasn't played Because it was ineffective in the first half He gave him an opportunity Fultz did okay in game one I believe he played second half in that game But games two and three Didn't play well at all

And there's too much And there's too much chemistry And time logged with McConnell And the other guys McConnell is a really good glue guy Really good glue guy Who can really steer the ship Coming off the bench

From Philadelphia One on one make it take it Play to 11 who wins T. J. McConnell Matthew Delavadova. Call it. Delavadova because this defensive intensity

is ridiculous. How much you? I don't want to play Delavadova one-on-one either. Yeah, okay. I don't want to play Delavadova one-on-one. But it's funny, that's what made you think of when you were like,

you're just a great glue guy. And like, let's see, a war between McConnell and Delavadova. Deli's play at the end of that half was hilarious, man. In picking that ball up and hitting the little scoop, that was hysterical.

One quick aside, Why do some people consider glue guy a knock? Because I called Michigan State prospect Miles Bridges a glue guy on Twitter. And someone was like, he's not a glue guy. He's going to be a great player. And it's like some of the most important players are glue guys. Like Shane Batier was a 100 critically important glue guy. Two-time NBA champion, all defensive player.

Nothing wrong with being a glue guy. I mean, we can circle back around. That's why Oklahoma City would probably be better off with a, quote, glue guy instead of Carmelo right now. Exactly. Seriously. Exactly. You know what I mean?

Yep. Yeah, that's not a demerit. Kevin is always a pleasure. We'll leave the rest of the series to our compadres that we'll be doing the Ringer NBA show tomorrow. I will catch up with you next week. See you, Chris. This is fun. Thanks, brother.

If you dig what you're here, go give us a rating and review on iTunes, and we will talk to you next week.