The Ringer NBA Show - How Did the Ben Simmons Situation Go So Wrong? | The Answer

Episode Date: September 3, 2021

Chris and Seerat discuss the Ben Simmons saga and how it’s gotten to the point where Simmons reportedly does not intend on showing up to Sixers training camp (0:55). They wrap up by discussing 'Succession'. Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I reckon I'll do. Yeah, man. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. My name is Chris Ryan. It is the answer. Sir Ritz-O-Y is with me this week. week as always. Well, not as always. It takes us a lot, a lot to get our schedules on the same, same page. But today we're together. And today we are talking about Ben Simmons. The question we are trying to answer is how the hell did this Ben Simmons situation go so wrong. Sir, what's up?

How's it going, Chris? It's going okay. Yeah, you know, I mean, like tough week for Philadelphia, both in terms of ecological disaster, but also in terms of their NBA team. So shout out to everybody in Philly. Stay dry. Stay safe. It's a rough one. But, uh, here. Today we're talking about the Sixers. Today we're talking about the Ben Simmons saga. As people are probably aware, if they're listening to an NBA podcast, this week saw a couple of developments in that story. First, we had some reporting from the Philadelphia Inquirer and Keith Pompey about Simmons being so steadfast in his desire to get out of Philadelphia that he was going to refuse to report to training camp. And then there was some additional rumors from

Jason Dumas, who's a Bay Area reporter who has some Sixers connections. And he mentioned that, you know, that Clutch, who is Ben Simmons's agency, was also looking to extract Tyrese Maxie, who is sort of a darling of the Philadelphia sports community and kind of had his coming out party during the NBA playoffs, the rookie point card from Kentucky. Tyrese Maxie was also a Clutch client that apparently he was also being extracted from Philadelphia.

That's where the state of affairs were, that the relationship between Clutch and the Sixers was so bad that he was like, I don't even want Maxie there. Rich Paul was like, want to get Tyrese maxi out. And this is apparently backed up by the idea that Tyrese Maxi had been approached by some local businesses or local organizations about doing some sponsored events or some participating in some events and that they had been turned down because it was like, don't get your hopes

up about Maxi being a Philadelphia player for too long. That has since been somewhat walked back by Kendra Perkins. And as I'm saying this, Sir, as I'm kind of like describing the situation, I'm reminded by of a tweet that my buddy DJ Paihauski from the No Laying Up Golf Podcast recently set out. about the Bryson DeShambo situation right now. And he basically sent this tweet that was like, I know this is a serious and touchy subject, but when you really take a step back

and look at the Bryson controversy, and particularly when you try to explain it to someone else, it is almost impossible to overstate how stupid this is. And that's how I'm starting to feel about Ben Simmons, is that the more and more deep we get into the he said, he said, tweeting rumors, tweeting meetings, clutch machinations, is that this is starting to really, really, really sound stupid.

Am I just, is this just too deep summer brain of me, or are we entering the Twilight Zone? No, no, because yesterday, as we were talking about this, I started thinking about all of the leaks that have come out, first of all. So, like, let's start with Jason Dumas, who was a new player in the NBA news break-up system, right? He's had some philly info before. It sounds like he's somewhat connected in the walker.

Yeah, yeah. Like, he just, he seems like he's up and coming. So before I get into any of this, I don't want to say anything like negative about his sourcing by any means. But I do think that the way that everyone is trying to guess who is talking to him is really interesting because like it's almost such an obvious play

that it's Rich Paul that I feel like it's kind of not Rich Paul. And there's a couple of reasons for that. So first of all, like some of the other leagues that have come out. We have the, well, you know, Ben doesn't really want to play in, in Toronto or Portland because he just like is such a social A and he just really wants to live in L.A. Just a California boy at heart. I don't think anybody who is leaking from, from Simmons camp, unless they really don't like Simmons or they really don't like Rich Paul is saying things in those terms. Like, you know, how those conversations go is usually just like, you know, get the information. And there's also some sort of like, you know, upsell, like some sort of really good reason.

for why that is, not that he, like, you know, used to date Kylie Jenner. Like, that's, that's one aspect of it. The other, the, the maxi thing, I don't, like, that's, that's not rich. That's wild. I mean, unless it was one of those things where, like, one place where I think agents get into trouble is, like, when they start to, they start to brag about the things that they shouldn't be doing. Sure.

It could have been that, right? but there's just there's too much stuff that would look too bad for Simmons in particular for this to really seem like a Rich Paul or clutch thing I almost get the sense that it's either somebody who thinks that like either somebody in Ben's camp

who thinks that like Rich has his ear too much or it's like somebody on the Sixers side of it that has like you know been in those meetings and would know that information in terms of like you know Simmons doesn't talk to anybody and all that stuff So yeah, I think it's strange enough that I've gone into conspiracy mode. No, you sound like you're a character in Knives Out right now. Or you're just like the most obvious person would be this.

So it has to be Chris Evans. No, but like I think that that's a really good place to start, which is that this is a lot of this is just whisper like game of telephone. We haven't had really any official statements from Daryl from Elton Brand, from Doc Rivers, not really since the end of the season. Ben Simmons himself has really only been present in our lives through his lovely Instagram stories where he looks like Reggie Miller

in summer workouts, drilling jumpers from all over the court. This is sort of a yearly annual practice of his where the version of him in Instagram is what everybody wants him to be. And then when he comes back to the Sixers in the fall, it's always just kind of like, well, he's just going to, I guess he's just going to set up other guys

for the next night. nights that I watch this dude play basketball. So yeah, like we are kind of really in this nether region where none of the major players have made any statements. There have been relatively definitive statements through people like Keith Pompeii or through people like Jason Dumas, but then some of those things have been walked back. None of those things have been corroborated. And meanwhile, the media industrial complex around all this is going and going and going

so that we have now gone through two or three cycles of trade offers that the Sixers have made to different franchises that have been rejected, so that in a weird way, the public perception of Ben Simmons's value has been tanked while nothing has happened. Do you know what I mean? There's no, nothing is different than it was after Game 7 against Atlanta in the Eastern Conference semifinals. But we are now at a point where Simmons has been, like Simmons offers have been rejected by the Blazers and the kings and the warriors and the Timberwolves don't want to include DeAngelo Russell in a package for Ben Simmons if you just read everything. Now, I don't know whether any of that is true. I don't know whether that's Darrell Mori asking for the moon and then

accepting the stars if he winds up up there. But like, what do you make of this market and where it's at and how this, the perception of his value, Simmons's value, has kind of changed over the last couple weeks. Well, I feel like the issue really is that it hasn't changed. I think you're right that like, you know, there's been an attempt. Like we called it leverage theater. I think before we, uh, when we were talking about it. And everyone is kind of, there have been so many different leaks that have come out like, you know, different trades. Um, there's like the, the Simmons hypothetically side of it. We don't really know, but, you know, at the end of the day, I feel like everyone kind of sees through what's happening. And I get the impulse on, on like the

Sixers side to try to juice up his value because ultimately like what they are trying to do is turn 75 cents into a dollar and that's like that's you know we're talking in superstar terms here like we have also throughout all of this we've kind of lost sight of Ben Simmons being really good but we can talk about that later but they are trying to turn a guy who they're not quite sure like you know is you going to be like the guy that you need in the playoffs into the guy that can definitely be that which is Damien Lillard right everybody or Brad Biel which you know doesn't like that that's another thing we'll get to later I guess but um everybody that they could trade for right now that makes sense that the other side would say,

like, yeah, that's a fair deal for us is somebody where you would kind of have to squint your eyes and say, oh, he can be the guy for us. Or you'd have to take a bet that he can make the leap. Like, Zach Levine, can Zach Levine be Devin Boker? Like, maybe, you know, like, that's, he's definitely like, you know, he's a three-level scorer who hasn't really done it on a big stage, but that doesn't mean he can. Also doesn't mean that he can. C.J. McCollum, we have seen in the playoffs, just honestly, be too small, right? Like, that has just been kind of the thing with him. I'm curious what he would look like on a team that didn't have that problem running throughout the entire roster. But, like, you know, with everything. And then on the other side with Ben, too,

like, you don't really know what you're getting back with him either. That's another thing that makes this really, really difficult. But ultimately, I just don't think that it's really moved a needle in any way because it's the off season. Nothing's happening. Everyone can just see the play and they're just like, oh, yeah, this is the play. Like, you know, like, Mori is kind of trying to, it feels like play with a deck of cards that he doesn't have. And everyone's just like, dude, you don't have bases, right?

I guess the question, I guess the question is like what's clutches, what's Ben Simmons's deck look like, right? Like, this is, this is almost a unique story in the, uh, the last couple of years of these major players being traded or major players demanding a trade or major players moving on after or shorten contract because they've negotiated to have maximum leverage, whether it's like a two plus one or whatever. I guess you could say like all unhappy NBA players are unhappy in their own way. Anthony Davis and James Hardin both asked out of their situations and got it.

Benzeman's never asked out. I mean, not necessarily. He didn't ask out after game seven of the Atlanta series. He didn't necessarily come out two weeks later and say, I'm done in Philadelphia. The perception around this was that this was over. on the Sixers end of things. That after Joel M. B. came out,

and we'll get to Joel in a few minutes, but after Mbid came out and seemed to like, without saying his name, throw Ben under the bus, and after Doc Rivers basically said, I don't know if Ben Simmons can be a point guard on a championship team. Not necessarily, I don't know if Ben Simmons can be a major part of a championship team

or can play on a championship team, but he didn't know if he could be a point guard. But after Doc came out and said that, it was understood that this was it for Ben, that they had gotten to the end of the Joel and Ben experiment. and that they would try to move on from him. And as the summer went on and the, you know, no trade materialized,

I think everybody has kind of lost it a little bit where it's like, okay, so we have no idea what this guy's value is anymore, but you make a really, really good point. I think the thing that I personally, as a Sixers fan, I think a lot of Sixers fans need to grapple with, is that they're probably not going to be happy with either what they get back in return for Ben Simmons or what they additionally have to give up to get what they want in return.

So if it's Lillard in this pie in the sky world where you get Damian Lillard, I don't think it's just going to be in Ben Simmons. I think that the Blazers would ask for more of that. And I think it might be Maxie or it might be Thiable or it might be both. I don't know. On the flip side, I don't think what you're going to get back for Ben Simmons is going to be Ben Simmons who can shoot. And that's something that I think that I've like really been hanging on to is because

I actually really like lots of Ben Simmons's game. I really do. I've liked it for the entire time. He's been there. I understand the shooting thing. I went through the playoffs too. But this idea that the person who's coming back and return for Ben Simmons

is going to do everything Ben Simmons did plus also score off the dribble is like, that's not going to happen. So you have to almost reimagine what the Sixers are in this case. What would you're in reality? What do you think they can get back right now? Like what's your favorite return

that can also probably happen today? So my favorite return is like I don't want to, I don't really, think for number one draft picks. A is likely, but B is really matches up with the Embed window or the Tobias Harris window to the extent that Tobias Harris is part of this. The Embed window is now. And I don't think that, now you could say like getting a bunch of draft picks in would then give Darrell Mori a bunch of stuff to play with to go out and get other people. But because of this sheer volume of transactions that have happened over the last, say, 40

months, it's hard to kind of conceptualize who these guys are, right? Like, I think that if they had had a deal for Lillard or if they had a deal for Beal, obviously they would have done it. And those are the two guys that I think Sixers fans and myself have kind of gotten in our head is like the only appropriate return on investment. It's actually unfathomable now to get, to think of the Warriors deal, which was apparently rumored to have been rejected obviously by the Warriors, which was Weissman and Wiggins and the picks that wound up being Cominga and Moody.

If I saw you and said you now today, Ben Simmons was going to get traded for Wiseman, Wiggins, Moody, and Cominga. That would be bonkers. Like, it doesn't seem like, like, the Warriors would be really crazy to do that, right? They would be. And it also wouldn't necessarily be what Philly wants either.

I think that's a problem with most of these trades. Like, if you told me that was a trade, I'd ask you who the third team is. Yeah. And I'd also ask you when Damian Lillard was going to touch down, right? Like that's a type of package that you can probably, that you can probably, you know, make the, make the Blazers, you know, at least, you know, poke around a little bit and see. But yeah, I just think that it's hard for them to find a deal with the team like the Warriors, even though I think, you just, so right now the odds are actually, so the Warriors have actually dropped down to the fourth most likely team. to get Simmons in a trade. And I think that's a significant drop, isn't it?

Because I think they were favorites at one point. Right now, it's Blazers, two to one, then wolves, which I think makes sense. The Kings are still up there, five to one. There are a team that I frankly haven't paid a lot of attention to in this, because, like, everyone they won't give up is exactly who you'd have to give up. And I just frankly don't really, I don't get it. So I've just ignored it. And I kind of felt the same way about the Warriors until I got a little bit louder.

are in there too. But yeah, like all these, all these teams, like, if you want Ben Simmons, you're probably in a strange place in your, in your rebuilding situation. And then, or you're a contender and you need to add that extra guy. Like I thought, you know, with the three California teams, you know, just RIPSack, the Clippers really interesting, but they can't give anything that doesn't also, like that, that Philly would want that they wouldn't also want to keep because both those teams are trying to win a championship. So I think almost anything requires a third team.

Yeah, I mean, this is going to get way more complicated before it gets more simple. But before we get to the point where it seems like that all the pieces are going to fall, part of what's happening right now is as we're about what like pretty much a month out from from training camp opening, is this idea of whether or not the Sixers could weather a distraction, quote unquote, which would be Simmons not showing up. One of the things that's sort of plays to everybody's advantage probably is that it is deep summer and nobody is sort of required by the league to give any kind of updates about this, that Ben Simmons doesn't have to give any press conferences, Doc Rivers doesn't have

to do scrums, Darry doesn't have to give a state of the union address. Everybody is allowed to kind of work behind the scenes and reporters can take or leave what they gather as crumbs from these conversations that may or may not be happening. But the perception is that by the end of the month of September, when people start gathering again, is that there is going to have to be some sort of at least statement about all this, or we'll find out whether or not Simmons is actually showing up to work or not. I think that that might actually be the next time we hear about this. Because I don't know what really was about the timing here.

Let's just say that this was something that the clutch was comfortable with coming out. This idea that Simmons was not going to report to camp. I don't really know what it does for them now necessarily. You know what I mean? Do you think that it necessarily puts a, it spurs Mori to do anything before he's ready? I don't think that that's the case. Maybe, maybe.

I think, well, let's go back to, let's go back to the press conference. Sure. I think the reason that it's really hard for them to spin themselves out of, you know, having to, having to give up Ben at much low. Like this is, I mean, you can see why Morrie hates this. This is the absolute lowest that Simmons value has been.

And honestly, probably ever will be. But it's very difficult for them to get out of that because those press conferences from from Rivers and Embed were just like those rare moments of NBA honesty. Yeah. That once they're out there, it's really, really hard to backtrack from in an effective way. You combine that with just a way that Philly. fans are. I can just see why Ben Simmons would be looking at this situation and saying, hell, no,

I am not like, I don't want to be back there. I definitely don't want to suit up and see what my reception would be like after all of this. And I thought it was in, so let's talk about the Embedit tweet, right? Like that's the Embedd series of tweets. Like any true wrestling fan, Joelle comes up off the top rope here. Yes, of course. of course, like you said. He just, he needs to, he needs to be part of like every sixers kerfuffle.

He basically, you know, he tweeted yesterday, stop using my name to push people's agendas. This was after a suggestion. I think Jess Zilgit wrote a column actually based on, I think the debunked report, suggesting that Simmons and Embedd's relationship has gotten worse. So Embedd said, stop using my name to push people's agendas. I love and hate drama. Who, I mean, relatable. I love playing with Ben.

Stats don't lie. He's an amazing. Stats don't like. It's like the more, you throwing out the starting lineup stats after, I think that was in August. He's an amazing player and we all didn't get the job done. It's on me personally.

I hope everyone is back because I know we're good enough to win. Then the really interesting one is when he said, you know, to clarify, you know, like we talked about how he got food and in Philly and he had to like kind of just like, redeem himself. And he said to clarify, like, that's pretty much all good with me. Like, I can handle that. But, like, you know, not like, not everyone can necessarily handle that. So it was like a combination of, it was like a brag. It was kind of an apology. It was an admission of like, hey, maybe we shouldn't have gone that hard at you after you like made like the biggest like mistake of your career.

Maybe I shouldn't have like decided that I was going to just highlight that. of anything else. If you're ever tweeting to clarify, it's probably not a good sign. If you ever start a tweet with, to be clear, it means that something went wrong in a previous tweet. Yeah,

it is like the notes app version apology. I feel like it was kind of the notes app of the press conference too. The thing I wonder about that is, is it sincere? Like, has Joelle just realized, had the Sixers realize that maybe Ben is just not,

that type of guy that he's not necessarily going to be motivated by slides. Like he's clearly like, I mean, he said himself that he needs to work on himself mentally after that game. And I wonder, honestly, it was like, would that layup have been that big of a deal if Embed didn't point it out? Because there were three and a half minutes left in the game and they essentially only lost one point from it. Sure. And I would, as I said at the time, I also wasn't a huge fan of Joe Embed's ball security in the fourth quarters throughout that, throughout that end of the,

end of, in the Atlanta series. Benzeman's came out after that game and this is what he said. He said, offensively, I wasn't there. I didn't do enough from my teammates. There's a lot of things that I need to work on.

That was, as clues as we're going to get, like, I think that there's like this desire for accountability. John Gonzalez wrote a piece about this, uh, on the ringer today. And it's like this desire.

that people have for, like, I don't know what Ben is supposed to do. Like, you know, obviously, yes, just shoot. But, like, this idea that he has somehow, like, scooted out on the responsibility for what happened in the Atlanta series, I think is wrong. What he could do is if, like, if he took what he's doing in the practice videos and Instagram and, like, immediately just started applying them to his NBA play. And it just was like, as soon as the NBA season started, he was taking 10 jumpers a game. I think everybody in the city of Philadelphia would be rejoicing. But he's probably, based on the past seasons, not going to do that. I think if anything, these videos are as much like a highlight reel for any other team

thinking about picking him up or thinking about trading for him. Joelle's role in this is weird. I think that any, I think that you just have to accept certain times that there are certain players that are the franchise. And it's like, different than franchise player. It's like there are certain times when, like, there are players where everything that happens to the team is going to be somehow a reflection of that player or run through the prism of that player

or that player is going to need to comment on or that player is going to see himself as a major character. There's just like, it would have been just as easy for Embed to be like, this piece is bullshit. No offense to Jeff. But I never said that it has to be me or Ben. And I'm not worried about what I didn't, didn't say and Ben knows it. So why don't we just kind of like keep it moving and

and I'm going to keep enjoying my summer? And he obviously didn't do that. And maybe that was because of the sort of whirlwind of rumors that was coming out about Ben over this week. And Joelle just felt like the need to somehow clarify his role in all of it. But like, I don't think anybody in Philadelphia was really like, this is Joel's fault that this has gone wrong. You know what I mean? So does that make you think it was more sincere? I think that I think it's important to Joel Embed that he be seen as that he not be seen as the reason why Ben Simmons is leaving

that he not be seen as the reason why things have gone wrong and I think that when he made that statement after the game it was sort of a two-part statement. He was like, I don't know how to put this, but essentially he was like, we passed up an open shot and only made one free throw. That's partly on Ben for missing the shot, or passing up on the shot,

but it's also unthiable for missing the free. throw. So I think that ultimately, like, it was a critique of the end of game play, but it wasn't entirely Ben. I'm sure he was frustrated with Ben. I'm sure everybody on that team was like, Jesus, if Ben would just shoot, a lot of these different things on our team would be unlocked. But for Joel, I mean, it's just going to be the, this is just going to be the price we pay. He's always going to be, like, kind of like, the name and face on any Sixer story. Yeah, and I don't think it's necessarily a nefarious thing that he said that or that he necessarily wanted to shift blame.

I think oftentimes, like, when we want to get through to somebody or we want to motivate them or we just, you know, whatever it is, we would use a method that would work best on us. And, you know, it's just being, I guess, I don't know, spotlighted like that, just not necessarily Ben Simmons love language, you know? It might be Joel's. I think it's probably why he got along so well with Jimmy Butler and Ben Simmons didn't. So from there, I think, you know, there's something that Rivers said, and I think they kind of realized it after, but maybe the damage has just been done. And I don't know. From here, it's like, does he report to Cab? I'm really curious. And then where do the Sixers go from there if he decides not to? Like, here's, okay, so here's something that's interesting. I think Rich Paul and Darrell Morey kind of need each other in ways that are, I mean,

general in terms of just how much like a powerful executive needs a powerful agent. They want to maintain that relationship. And clutch is too big now to ignore. Exactly. I think that I would say that if I remember correctly, the Rockets did not have many, if any, clutch clients during Bore's time there. I don't, I don't think. Well, Chris, it's funny that you bring that up because I think one of the reasons that

they didn't have a clutch client there is because, you know, they were trying to possibly sign a clutch client in Nerlin's Noel. And they just, they couldn't exactly reach Rich Paul. And it's, it's, I would venture to guess that if Rich Paul decided to go like super agro with this, which is, you know, this is a reason that I kind of doubt some of the weeks having come from him. I don't know. I just, I would, I would imagine that it's in the back of Mori's mind that there is going

to be a case against Rich Paul for, for his, uh, I don't know, what do you want to to call it just not rendering the not not doing everything he could in this client's best interest when it came to nerlands noel and uh how much how much money he's lost i think it's i don't remember exactly how much money the suit is for but it's i think it's over 50 million dollars um it is also a reputational like curse for a guy that we've are like you know some people are already wondering like hey is he just in it for his uh for his bigger clients but essentially the story is that like you know teams were trying to trying to sign uh noel uh sixers were trying to sign him and the rockets were assign him. Um, so, you know, there's obviously a lot of, a lot of overlap with this situation

in terms of the people that are within it. Um, and he just couldn't be reached. And that's why Noel ended up going back to Oklahoma at a time when nobody really really understood why he did, because he had a really good, like, reclamation year. Um, I don't know. I'm just throwing that out there. When you read the clutch stuff, are you like, and, and such, and this is the same as CAA, and this is the same that Dan Fagan used to do. And this is the same like NBA agents over time, have always done this. Maybe it's not always as flashy or maybe it's not always as like in the public eye because of the LeBron Association or because, you know, that this person wasn't allegedly dating

Adele. But like for the most part, like, do you think that Clutch just performs the same like actions as all NBA agents did? It's just being seen in a different way. Or do you think that there is something different about what Clutch does? I don't think it's that different. I think there may be a little bit more aggressive. And I think it's really just that people know who really.

which is that's been an asset for him at times. And I also think it's a reason that some people are going to want to like take shots at him too. But ultimately, like we don't really have to make this about the NBA even. This is just agents. Like agents value their high level clients way more than they value. You know, the guys that don't necessarily make them as much money, right? Like that's just the name of the game in any industry across time. Like that's just like anybody is motivated.

by making more money than less. We're all going to go towards a higher leverage options there. Now, like, that's, I don't think that's necessarily, like, a unique thing. And it's also, I mean, just even the fact that he's being sued is such big information is interesting to me.

Agents, like, I'm not going to say it, but I can think of right now of a top agent right now who is, like, suing, one of his former clients in the NBA and who is also like a big name and we don't know about it right so that's the publicity of it it's like the public nature of it

that makes it unique I think it's also this perception that Clutch moves as like a collective and that like you do one thing against Clutch and then it hurts your chances of somehow getting a Clutch client down the line and that's why it was sort of interesting when Zach Levine signed with Clutch I think there was an implication that this might be like an easy way to get Ben out of Philly and Zach out of Chicago.

That it would be like a Ben, Benson and Zach Levine would be solving all people's problems for everything. And that clutch would just sort of make that happen. Clutch is not the general manager of Chicago. And Clutch is not the general manager of the six-ups. Like those teams will do what they want for their own reasons. It's not going to be because what? Because like Clutch will make things difficult if they sign Amani Bates in two years

and they'll give the Sixers or the Bulls a hard time about it. Like, I don't really know if that's really what's at play here. Yeah. And I also think that there's an element to, like, you know, what people say, like, hey, Clutch just, like, gets your guys to go to certain places. Like, that's kind of how it works with agents, I feel like. But it's also how it's always worked. It also depends on the client, too.

Like, I think anybody who's had an agent has, like, like, most agents are pretty milk toast. Like, they're pretty much going to go with, like, the thing that, like, is the least controversial and makes the most money. And I think that among players, there's a perception that I think is probably true that Rich isn't necessarily like that. He's going to get a little bit more creative and he's not afraid to like stick his head out. And, you know, he will he will do a little bit more for you because of that. Like the lack of Zach Levine situation is I think a perfect example of that where I think now it's not like he is definitely leaving Chicago, but.

I also think it's a question whether he'll stay. And just the fact that we don't really have a good gauge on what Levine is going to do is tremendous for his value. Yeah, it's almost the reverse Ben Simmons. Yeah, no, exactly. Like, I think if you're Chicago, you have to kind of look at this like, oh, man, we better come correct now. And I think that's ultimately the goal. Well, it's just a huge gamble. Because like if you decide that somehow, if you decide that for whatever reason,

Zach Levine is not worth this max deal and that you can build out the rest of your roster by trading Zach Levine, whether it's adding Ben Simmons or whatever it is, and that you're comfortable with Lanzo de Rosen, you know, Fuch, however you want to set up that team, Pat Williams. And that Zach Levine is almost like surplus to requirements in that sense. Yeah. That's fine. But what happens if Zach Levine does take some sort of like Booker leap,

post-Olympics, like, understands everything about basketball now and knows what it takes to win after getting yelled at by pop in an empty gym for three weeks. Like, that's a really big, that's a really big risk on Chicago's part. You know, it's the same thing, it's a risk on the Sixers part. There is a, like, will they ever be able to live with themselves if Ben Simmons starts training 11 footers next year in somebody else's uniform? You know what I mean? Like, these, there are certain things that are unknowns.

they're, you know, like, New Orleans knew what they were losing with Anthony Davis. They knew what they were losing, you know, like, I think. And that also let them get a haulback. Yeah. Like, you know, like, you know, like, they could have gotten a haulback. Well, I mean, like, the Rockets would have us believe that we need to wait a decade to evaluate that trade. I think that, you know, I worry that, like, you know, I worry is, is a word.

But, like, I think that probably the Sixers return will be more Hardin-esque or Kauai ask than it was Anthony Davis-esque, you know, like, I think it will be more in the, you yeah, like you've got a useful player and maybe some future, some assets to work with rather than here's four young awesome guys. You know, have fun with that. Where do you think he's playing by All-Star Break next year? If you had to guess. So right now, the odds also have Shanghai Sharks at 20 to 1,

which I think is close areas. Well, I don't think his suggestions necessarily matter, right? I think for all the reasons that we talked about, to the extent that Mori doesn't have a lot of leverage, in increasing Ben's value. Like, Ben doesn't really have a lot of leverage in terms of dictating where he wants to go. I think, you know, he can try, but I don't think it ultimately really matters. He's under contract for too long.

Man, I would, if they can get to January. I don't know. If they can get to January, which is, like, right now feels like the biggest if in the world. But, like, you know, we know how some of these things feel in September versus how they end up being. I would say the Blazers. Just because I think it's going to, it's going to take some time to, like, you know, I think Dame's going to give us a shot.

And then it also, that totally depends on how things go with the Blazers. The Blazers are still, like, I would say, like, they're the best bet, though, just because if that part doesn't work out, like, CJ is still an option for them. And then after that, I would actually go with the Warriors. The Warriors, I think, probably have, like, the most path to get him. Right. And the wolves are interesting in this because the wolves would also kind of be like a perfect third team if they would like get out of the sweepstakes, you know?

Sure. So each one of those teams, I think in their different ways, kind of likes what they have going into the season. Like I think that Neil Losey is probably like, I'm not going to trade DMien Liller because I'm probably going to get fired. You know, so I think he'd probably just as soon go down with the ship and hope Chauncey reimagines that squad, I guess, with Larry Nance and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and. Norm Powell and CJ and Dame bringing back largely the same squad. The Warriors seem delighted with their new, their kids and this, this bridge to the future that Joe Lacob is building in his starship hovering over our, our, our, Joe Lacob is like such a writer, man.

Like, that's really just, that's, that's like the, that's what we learn this summer is that Lakeb is one of our great writers. And then with the wolves, I don't know if you saw this, but Anthony Edwards grew two And they're like, now they're like, Aunt Edwards is like trying to get to grow to 6-6 so that he could be as good as Michael Jordan. And I just think the wolves kind of like their team now. You know what I mean?

So I can't, they're the ones who are like, we're not trading any of our three core guys for Ben Simmons. It would have to be the bench and picks. So I think that all the, all the obvious traders for markets for Ben Simmons are also going into the season being like, Like, we like who we are. Just as an exercise.

Talk yourself into Daniel Russell. Oh, I really can't. I really, I really can't. It's not even that I don't like him as a player. I just think that it would be a real step down. And I think that they, that would be the most obvious, like, here's what you missed out on Benson's. Like with the premier defense and with the playmaking.

I just think that that would be a really, really big step down. I also think that there's some weird, like, towns will not let that happen. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's definitely an element of it. I think he's like, this is my guy. Like, I'm not interested in him getting traded. Here's my case.

There were, okay. He had that, he had that really good season with the Nets. I mean, everyone did. Right. That was like a real Red Bull season, though. That was like, I've seen some. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Like, just based on how, like, everyone else has fared after that.

Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say stat padding, but I would say that that Kenny Atkinson team was definitely like, those guys have all kind of come back down to earth. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. My case for him is while he is inefficient as a scorer, it's because he's good at scoring from the places that, like, you don't necessarily want to score from all the time, but that's useful in the playoffs.

Also, if he ever stops, he does this thing where he turns his head every time he's about to take a floater. If he ever just keeps looking at the basket, I just feel like that could solve, like, all of his issues. It's like Ben Simmons using his right hand. Hopefully for your sake, we never actually end up in this scenario. But, I mean, unless I can ride it out, we might. Yeah, I'll be really interested to see what the demeanor of Doc Rivers and Darry

is almost more so than Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons does or doesn't show up. If he shows up and he's like, I'm under contract, I'm here to play, things aren't going to go out. Or if he decides to, like, get a back injury before camp so that he doesn't have to report or something, I don't know. But Darry and Doc Rivers, the reason that they were brought in

was to bring stability to a team that had been a franchise that had gone through a lot of upheaval between Calangelo, between the end of the Brett Brown administration, between Elton coming in. These were just supposed to be the two steady hands on the franchise.

That's why Josh Harris brought them in. And this is the test of their steadiness. Ultimately, this will be like a litmus test on how much Darrell and Doc can kind of like manage this situation. That's interesting to think about both of those two in tandem the situation because they're both, like, this might be more of a psychological quandary than anything

else because they're both quite aggressive in their approach. I mean, obviously, more as a traitor, but he's also, I mean, he talked to anybody that was in Houston, like, he's a very demanding employer. And he very much goes with, like, the idea of, like, let's keep the pressure on at all times. And then with rivers, he's like, I mean, like the guy just like thrives in toxic environments. So he seems to just kind of create them. Until he doesn't. Yeah. And then there's Joelle who can just, he can handle it all. Like he can handle being like, it's, it's really interesting that he ended up being like the franchise in Philly because he actually is like one of the few superstars that would be able to withstand all that that comes with. So I don't know. I feel like

when you combine all those three things, like, man, if Ben Simmons is ever going to develop his jump shot, I just don't think it's going to be in this setting. I think you're right. I think you're right. All right, Siri, we can wrap it up there. I think that we've, we've explored the far reaches of Jason Dumas's tweets.

Do we want to do succession? Do we want to do succession? Do you want to do succession? Yes, like, can I take over? My kind of, like, that's kind of been the long play I've been making this entire time. You're a Kendall? I am, yeah. That's what I'm trying to do.

That's what I'm trying to do. Did you want to, do you want to leave, give me some quick succession take? The thing that's interesting about succession is like what we brought up in the, in the meeting. And I would love to have your answer to this question. Why do we watch Succession this week on the answer? I think I need a longer, longer podcast today. Answer that question. When we had it, what Sirits referring to is that we did a meeting about like how we were going to cover Succession at the ringer.

And I, one of the questions was like, Siri was singing, like, why do we watch this show? I watch it because it's, it's funny and it's good, and the acting is great. And I don't necessarily, like, look to TV for, like, characters that affirm my worldview, necessarily. So it doesn't really bother me that I wouldn't, you know, save a lot of the people in the show if they were on fire.

Why do you watch it? So there's a lot of like innocent responses you can have to this, right? Like I think Allison said something along the lines of, you know, it's a window into just like how these super powerful people operate. Like in that, like it ends up being a window into our world. I think that's true. And I think that's maybe like 15% of the reason that I watch it. But I just feel like the Roy siblings are like. like way more relatable than we ever really give them credit for.

And I think the show is just like a very interesting project in how far you can stretch empathy. Because like as much as they like pillory them, they also really go out of their way to like show you why they are the way that they are. Like for you just have like Logan being like just an incredibly, emotionally physically abusive father that like withheld his love from his kids. And they, that's just like the natural setup for like any sibling rivalry, right? And everyone, like, I feel like everyone's kind of got like little elements of each character.

Like sometimes, sometimes I'm Ken, you know? Yeah, like, sometimes I just like, I'm incredibly approval seeking and scared. And I just, I just want daddy's love and approval. And, you know, daddy just being like the larger universe. and, you know, feel like I'm not getting it. And it's ultimately because I'm actually just, like, too scared, right? Then there's Shiv who just gets, like, ignored as, like, you know, she's smart, but, like, we're not really going to think about Shiv.

Like, she's, like, the ultimate middle sibling. And then Roman is just, like, the one that everyone dismisses and everyone's been calling stupid and, like, just, like, treating them like shit their entire lives. And then he's, like, got his whole complex because of that. So I don't know. I think it's really interesting. I think they're like if you took the, one thing that,

I don't know, one thing that, like White Lotus we talked about too. Like both those shows are very good at saying like, hey, this is, this is like how awful rich people are. But it's also kind of interesting that like

the two characters that are like the most relatable, like the manager in White Lotus and like cousin Greg also like have these moments where once you give them, the tools to be powerful, they immediately turn and start doing fucked up shit too. Like it's just just, you know, it's a show about

a dysfunctional family. And like just, you know, maybe not give dysfunctional families like the power and tools that they have, but they're not all that different from like other dysfunctional families. I will agree with that. I think that there's definitely like for as fantastical as the wealth is and

for as maybe sadistic as the put downs are, there's lots of recognizable behavior among the Roy family. Which Roy sibling are you? Well, I'm an only child. I am too. That's why I feel like I relate to all of them. Oh my god, this week on therapy with the answer.

We'll wrap it up there. No, no answer. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm holding you to this. Which one are you? Oh, I can't Kendall probably. Yeah. Yeah, probably.

In terms of like how I relate to the person, probably Kendall. Not in like a way that I'm like proud of, but like, It's just that sort of, like, you know, really trying to do the most while also worrying I'm doing the least kind of thing. Yeah. Are you rooting for him? I don't really root for anybody. I mean, like, what am I rooting for somebody to take over Fox News? Like, it's not like, I don't, it's a strange thing to root for.

So I'm not really, like, rooting for anybody. I'm rooting for the show to be good. Yeah, fair enough. I'm rooting for them to accidentally, like, find love somehow. All of them. Yeah. And they can just give this all up. mutually like fulfilling romantic relationships or any type of love like sibling love like anything

genuine that is just like you know not conditional like not you know thinking like once the one's the other shoe going to drop with this yeah i mean that's the thing that that show does though is they have those lightning bolt moments of like maybe these people are actually connecting with one another and then like you know shiv and kendle have that hug and like they don't ever mention it again the rest of the season so yeah i mean shiv gave up like the opportunity to potentially take over for the sake of her husband. Like that was the most self-sacrificial and like, you know, I guess like something, like relationship valuing thing that I have seen in this in this show thus far.

So I don't know. Maybe next season it's like it's just like a big love fest. It's a love in. That's probably, that's an interesting twist for this show. They do like the real therapy episode where it's not like, it's not like the one we've got in season one. And what happens is like they just dissolve waste art. They just realize it's like, what are we doing guys?

What are we doing guys? What are we doing guys? This isn't worth it. Maybe that's what Clutch and Daryl should do. Maybe. Therapy. Yeah, live streamed. Yeah.

It would be like our version of the decision. A very like 20-21 version of the decision. Yeah, I think that's, I think we should suggest that. Maybe they can all make it work out. Maybe Ben Simmons is part of the championship, the 2022 championship Sixers team. Finals MVP. Stranger things have happened this year. All right.

We'll wrap it up there. Cyr and I will be back next week. Everybody enjoy your weekends. You know.