The Ringer NBA Show - How Do the Celtics Salvage the Finals? Plus, an Important Zach LaVine Update | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

Justin, Rob, and Wos start by discussing the Warriors taking a 3-2 lead in the series, and they try to figure out how and if the Celtics can get back into the series. Then they discuss the news that Zach LaVine is expected to re-sign with the Bulls. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Dad Zistremski, host to the Ring of Gambling show. You want to join my buddy, Joe House and I every Tuesday and Friday. We break down all the lines, the liens, totals, props, and so much more for the NBA playoff action. And JJ, you never know when the podfather himself Bill Simmons is going to stop in. Plus, we are dropping special episodes in the feed around all the big events. We have some major golf coming up, JJ. You want to get in on all of it.

So whether you fancy yourself as a sharp or, Someone who likes to just throw up through shackles down. Get on the action with the ringer gambling show on Spotify. And welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier. Joining me, as always, Big Waze, Rob Mahoney. Rob, you're in the Bay for Game 5, right? Yeah, yeah.

So do you want to tell us about the healing properties of the ocean since you've experienced this firsthand? I would second Clay on the healing properties of the ocean. I would not endorse the healing properties of San Francisco Baywater. That's a whole different thing. I don't know where he's coming from on that one. Waz, of course, does not agree.

Not an ocean guy. I'm an ocean guy. I always go to the beach back when I was living in the northeast. Basically, once it's after July 4th, I'm not afraid to get in there and mix it up. The water gets pretty warm out there in the summertime. And of course, in a tropical setting, obviously you guys know I'm, you know,

related to Haitian immigrants, been to places like Jamaica, Dominican Republic. You get me in the Caribbean. I'm going to live in the ocean. You might as well call me Poseidon when I get to the Caribbean. In conclusion, the sea is dope. So, yeah. All right. We're going to get into some offseason stuff later on.

But first, we're going to try to turn the page just slightly to game six. We're going to talk about how the Celtics can salvage this series or if they can. I have a couple things on the agenda, but I want to start with Jason Tatum first. So one of his better games, statistically, of the finals, finished with 27 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assists, of course a couple turnovers in there. I want to get into the other stuff, Grant Williams,

you know, like Robert Williams, all the William I, all of the defenders who aren't hitting enough shots to help him out. But with Tatum specifically, I wonder if the series, Rob, is ultimately coming down to he's doing enough, but maybe not the transcendent stuff that he probably needs to be doing in this series that Steph Curry has done in the past

to give them the slim margin that you're going to need in a series like this that's flip-flopping all over the place and down to razor-thin margins in order to give them the edge. And now there's a lot we could discuss in there, but what do you think about that just as like kind of a thesis for the series right now?

Yeah, I think that's true. And weirdly enough, it's not, because he's not hitting tough pull-up jumpers or turn around fadeaways. Like he is hitting some of that stuff. He just can't hit almost anything in the paint. You know, it's tough finishes in the lane.

And to the Warriors credit, I think they've, especially their wings and their smalls, Andrew Wiggins, Gary Payton, those guys, have done a great job of like walling up, contesting shots and helping on those drives. Draymond Green, of course. But some of it is like just the way Tatum plays. Like playing for contact to try to draw

foul that he doesn't get. trying to go like sideways in the lane and not like going up and through people to try to go to the basket. It's been tough to watch and it's hard to know like how much of that is lingering issues with his shoulder. How much of that is just Jason Tatum being Jason Tatum? How much of it is the difficulty inherently in the NBA playoffs and in the NBA finals especially? This is a hard. This is hard stuff to do. So I have some numbers down here.

So Tatum is 19 for 40 from three in the finals. 19 for 62 from two point range. Yikes. Do you think it's like injury? Obviously the shoulder thing has been like a lingering like whisper. Like is he hurt? What's going on? Or is this just like kind of who Tatum is?

And the wars have kind of played into that a little bit. I think it's a sort of a combination or, you know, yeah, it's a combination of a few factors. One, I think Golden State has been allowed to be a certain level. of physical with Boston that's sort of neutralized Boston's size advantage. Because if the refs call things tight

against Golden State, they don't have a chance to stop these dudes, you know. And I'm not somebody who's against not calling things tight in a playoffs in a goddamn NBA finals. I'm actually pro that idea. So I think the physicality is one thing. Tatum seems to have some kind of thing

bothering him. Injury-wise is another thing. And, you know, the warriors are very smart defenders. Like, they're great at timing up their helps. They're great at disguising their help. They're great at, you know, knowing when and when not to help. Like, they're really good at these finer details. And so all three of those things are conspiring to make Jason Tatum, you know,

basically look like a pumpkin whenever he's within three feet of the basket. Yeah, I thought it was really telling that at points in this series, and I would say especially earlier, I think the Warriors have moved off this a little bit, but Golden State was pretty much cool with Steph Curry, Jordan Poole, whoever it was getting matched up against Tatum, basically around the free throw line area. And I think teams tell you a lot about what they think of you by how they guard you. And I think what the Warriors are saying with that kind of coverage is, we don't think you can make us pay consistently enough on efficient shots, on getting to the basket, on

on drawing free throws. We trust our help to be there. We don't know that you're going to be able to make the difficult pass 10 times out of 10 times against that kind of coverage. And although they've moved away from it somewhat, I think they're trying to scram Curry and Pool out of those mismatches a little bit more as the series has gone on. I don't think they were entirely wrong.

Like Jason Tatum is a great player, but the numbers bear out a guy who isn't able to get to the most efficient stuff consistently enough to, at least to be up in the finals at this point. Yeah, there was one play in the second quarter. I went back and watched a lot of the game from last night today. Crunch and tape. I know. I know.

It's amazing what can happen when I'm not doing like four other jobs. I can actually do this one quite well. Like he was matched up against Curry and I was like, oh, yeah, you should drive on him. And he did. But then Andrew Wiggins closed on him at the rim. And Andrew Wiggins having quite the series, we can talk about that later if we want. Obviously a very bouncy athlete, not someone you necessarily want to try. challenge in that role. But with a head of steam and Steph Curry kind of like already in your rear

view, I would think that you would at the very least want to try that. And he immediately passed out. And it's just like those type of plays, not only is it just like making probably the wrong decision in that scenario, but it almost has like a trickle down effect where it's just like, I don't think the warriors are intimidated at all by what the Celtics are going to throw at them. and I'm just like looking around like, where is like the Jordan pool or someone else that's just going to give this offense some zip and some juice

that it feels like they're lacking? It's just like, I don't know. I mean, it was in Golden State. I should point out, so obviously the crowd isn't going to get behind them. Maybe that changes in Boston. But there's just like, there's not, umph. And I feel like Tatum is the one that needs to bring that.

You know, it's crazy, man, you saying that evoked images of essentially when the modern error of bum hunting was invented, which is the 2016 finals. And especially those last three games where it was LeBron just straight up, it would be like five, six possessions in a row where he's like, no, you come set the screen.

We want this switch. We want this matchup and him attacking it. But LeBron, especially in 2016, as a threat at the basket, is one, one, he's a bigger threat to score. Two, the team has to allocate more resources to stopping that when he gets there. And three, like, you just can't compare the level of playmaker

and, you know, just basically pass her that LeBron is to Jason Tatum, right? And I think that's what you're seeing. So what you have to see is those moments when, you know, Steph Curry has to try to box out or stop Al Horthor on the block and he wins. You know, same with Rob Williams. Same with these bigger guys. Like, they have to beat them with that. because all of that juice of shot creation on the ball,

they got two guys who can do it. Everybody else has to do it by brute force. And when those guys don't got it going and they're spraying the ball all over the place in these live ball turnover situations, and it has the compounding fact that you don't get to play defense in the half court, which is your strength. And so now the warriors are playing against a transition defense

rather than a half court. It, like, has these cascading factors. and, you know, you have what happened in the last two games. The moment in game five when I knew the Celtics were in real trouble was there was an offensive possession that was a Marcus Smart driving kick to Derek White, a Derek White driving kick back to Marcus Smart, who then drove into the paint again. And it's just like, that's the way the warriors are going to cover these guys

because they know what was knows. We all know that they're only two guys in that team that have the juice to really create as you laid out. And that's why you get to these situations, where Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown play like 35 straight minutes, you know, I guess accepting halftime, but did not get a break basically from the start of the second quarter on or their first entrance into the second quarter on because those guys have to be on the floor. Like against a defense this good, the Celtics don't have that Jordan pool as you were asking,

Justin. They don't have those supplementary creators. They have these two guys. And if they can't get it done, that's the ballgame. That's it. And again, they have to be getting it. done. They have to be winning because the only way the warriors are going to change their coverage is just they're beating these guys constantly. It's like, all right, man, we got to move stuff in the direction of these guys who are just cooking people at the point of attack. They're beating help. All right, we got to change something up. And then their complimentary, secondary, tertiary players can have a lot of space to operate and get these wide open looks and shots. But if you're not scoring on Steph Curry one-on-one, and you're Jalen Brown or Jason Tatum, the Warriors have

no reason to give the rest of those guys any type of airspace. You know when they looked the best and the most dynamic was when Marcus Smart posted up Jordan Pool like two times in the row, like down on the block. And I was like, oh, there's a little something here. And then it completely went away. Like there's only so much you could pick on pool, especially when they just pull them from the game. I don't know.

Like, clearly they were searching for stuff. I mean, they went a lot with the four wing one big lineups. And it seemed like they got some juice from that in the third quarter. But by the fourth quarter, when things were really falling apart, and they put out the Grant Williams at center lineup that we talked about last podcast. And it did not go well. No. Unfortunately, for my, my theory there, I'm just like wondering where it comes from now.

Because I think in the big picture, like the best game they had playing to their strengths was probably game three where you're like, oh, their size is actually mattering here. Robert Williams has had an awesome series. But a lot of what they were scoring within the paint was a lot of like Jalen Brown, Jason Tainham, just like driving it into the cup. And I'm just like all of these bigs are now just spread out on the floor on offense. And they're not really helping you at all unless you get some like outlier three point shooting performances from Al Horford and Marcus Smart like they got into that third quarter. And so it's like they're big and it matters,

especially on defense, but I don't know ultimately if it's going to swing the game and I don't know if they have the wings and the offensive juice to go small in order to really like combat what the Warriors are doing and now I'm wondering,

uh-oh, is the series over? Are they fucked? Well, I mean, what makes it tough is not, like they are leaning somewhat into those one big four guard slash wing lineups, but it really only works with Rob Williams.

Like at this point in the series, when they've thrown Al Horford into those spots, he has not had a good time either. He and Grant Williams were both huge net negatives in Game 5. Rob Williams has been awesome. Probably their third best player in this series. But how much can he play? Like how much can he realistically be out there

given his injury situation? It's an impossible spot to be in. It's where the lack of depth on this team really, really hurts you. And they've gotten by to this point with that length, with that defense, with cobbling things together with seven and eight-man road. But I think now you're kind of looking at a 6.5 man rotation. You know, it's Derek White and whatever you might get out of Grant Williams on a given night.

And that's a tough place to be against the Warriors when they seem to be getting deeper as the series goes, right? Like Jordan Poole seems to be getting more confident. They're finding minutes for Bialitza. They're finding minutes for Iguodala. They're finding ways for all these pieces to make sense. And I don't see that for the Celtics necessarily with their rotation. At the same time, man. Those possessions where Tatum and Brown just give the ball away,

I'd like to see those maybe turning the shots on goal. You know, like, I think that's a nice improvement where you just go into the lane and just give the rock away or you pitch it out. And, you know, when Gary Payton, the second is guarding two guys out on the wing, right? Like, he's zoning up on the two guys. and he's just watching you pitch, float this freaking kickout. And it's like a, what you would call it?

A punt return, damn near where he's just waiting for the freaking ball and he's just going and transition. Like, you know, maybe see those possessions turn into shots on goal. I think that would make a world of difference. Call me crazy. Yeah. They're also waiting on some of them now too because they know that the kickouts are coming. Like almost like when Draymond does anything with the basketball,

you're like, oh, he's going to pass it. Like, I think, like, Tatum is becoming a little too predictable. Well, and not to be total JV basketball coach here, but 10 miss free throws, brutal. And the, when they came in the game and the, like, the circumstances where it's in the middle of a drought, Jason Tatum is dog tired, and he walks to the line and misses two in a row. I mean, that just takes a lot out of your team in those situations. It does. Well, let me throw this out there because I think it's like if we're trying to find solutions here, one of their only options would be more Peyton Pritchard, right?

Oh, boy. White Hope returning to Boston giving him some minutes. Now, on the one hand, he hasn't made a shot in two games. What's on the other hand? On the other hand, hasn't played a ton and is a plus 22 in this series overall, second to Robert Williams on the Celtics. And now you would say in theory, he is someone who can give you a little bit more stretch.

Obviously, isn't going to do much for you on the defensive end. But like in the games where like Derek White isn't giving you anything on offense, is it really that tough to just like throw some more minutes on to Peyton Pritchard? Or are we just like at the point where as soon as he gets out there, he's like pool and he's going to get picked on?

I think Pritchard, the thing about Pritchard is that, like Jordan Poole feels very confident when he's going against him, right? It's different than Steph and Clay. But also Clay is like, y'all can post this guy up. I'm way taller than him. You know, it's like the temperament of the people he's playing against. You know how sometimes you can invite a team to post up a bigger guy

and it's like bad for the team, you know, like these things that people like feel instinctively that they should be doing is bad. In the case of attacking Pritchard, it's good. It's like, no, this is actually like exactly what you guys should be doing. And so that's problematic. And yeah, he's not in any way making up for it on offense with anything, not with playmaking, not with shot making, not with anything. So it's tough for him right now.

Well, and I know Derek White is not really a consistent shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but in what universe is Peyton Pritchard some knockdown stretch guy. I know. He's getting like like mid-30s for the playoffs.

He's a white hooper. He's a white hooper. I mean. And so we just give him that deference. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that brings us then to one, Grant Williams, who

ostensibly should be able to play small ball center. Yeah. But thus far has not. And I really don't understand what's happening here. because for so long this season, it seemed like he was the next successor

to Draymond Green. But in this series, he kind of seems like just a pretty poor facsimile. And like, I don't know. Like, do you guys see anything for him where he's just like been,

because he can't guard Steph. We've covered that in the past. But like, I kind of don't understand why because he's not like he's particularly slow. I mean, I guess his lateral quickness isn't great. Or,

I mean, I guess Steph is just unique and he's going to do this to a lot of people, But I feel like this is where Grant Williams should be able to show off his own unique brilliance on the defense event. But this is the reason he is not Draymond Green, right? Like, I think what makes Grant Williams good is that he plays bigger than he is. But what good does that do you against Golden State? Like, he's Chuck Hayes with a jump shot right now, basically.

You know, like a defensive specialist against centers, but there's no center. You know, like there's no Janus to match up with this series. There's no way to use his inherent strength. And so then you notice, oh, this guy doesn't move like Draymond moves. He doesn't cover like Draymond. He's a good team defender, but the Warriors are a unique challenge that can stretch a guy like that past his limits. Yeah, and I think the problem for him, too, is that his bad moments against Steph looks so bad. And so you understand, it's not like there were a lot of them, but when they happened, they look so bad and so obvious.

So you understand why a coach would be like, I'm going to stay away from this in a way that they haven't done with Horford. who's had equally horrible-looking moments in stretches, but he's just got more trust from his coach to go out and try to figure something out. I just don't think he's, for whatever reason, he hasn't earned the trust or the leash, if you will, from Eme, to go out and continue to do it. I'm not, I don't think they should give up on it

simply because I don't think they have the luxury of it. You know what I mean? Like, they kind of got to bring them out there. and just, you know, hope that he could go out and execute. Yeah, and I think that's what I'm coming away with from this finals, which is like kind of what I come away with from every postseason for the past couple of years. Honestly, since the Warriors kind of rose to prominent seven years ago, it's like you're going to end up playing your most skilled guys

and more likely than not those guys are going to be wings. And I just wonder if the Celtics are just slightly too heavy in the front court that so much of what makes them unique is those big guys. guys and the Warriors have just found a way to just exploit them for that. They have all of these guys. As Rob mentioned, a lot of the guys that they're digging into now are all skilled guys. And like, if Poole isn't shooting, they could just turn to the next one. They could turn to Gary Payton, who's like, even though he's more of a defensive guy, has been a pretty consistent shooter and offensive player of this series, especially getting out in transition. And so I'm just like,

I wonder if we're kind of at like Ackham's razor for all of the NBA over since the Warriors rose to prominence, which is like, you're going to play skilled guys. And so, I'm just like, you're going to play skilled guys and you're going to play wings and the Warriors have more of those than you do. Yeah, I think that's where you get into some trouble, though, with the cap and just like the realistic flexibility of adding lots of highly paid wings on the same roster.

You know, I think the Warriors have had that... Are you going to win horse thus now? No, I'm not going down that particular road. But, like, look, this is the reason why, for example, the Sixers have never been able to figure out the backup behind Joel Embed, really. It's like, if this guy is going to play

huge minutes and get paid a lot at that position. How much are you going to invest in his backup, basically? And so they decided we're going to go for Derek White, who's kind of like a split option, right? He's both a two guard and he's Marcus Smart Insurance. That works, that kind of covers both bases for us. And that's worked out really well for them to this point.

But again, like the warriors are daring him to shoot. White has lost all confidence in his shot and his offense. And it's turned kind of brutal on them. But you can see the logic in that, especially as it compares to, frankly, the astronomical price you have to. pay to get good two-way wing players right now. So what do we have here if you're the Celtics? Like what can we bank on or what can we turn to right now?

So they finally lose two games in a row. So I do wonder if their confidence is maybe a little bit more shook than it has been in the past. On the other hand, you're going back home. You get the drunken crowd late night. Like maybe you get something from that. Is there anything was maybe to the fact that Steph Curry had an off game and you could learn something from that?

or is that even like more fools gold because he just missed some shots? Look, they went into game five, according to cleaning the glass, with an 83 defensive rating in the half court. You are stopping this team. You're stopping them. And so what you got to count on is like maybe you get a few more calls in the paint where those bad misses turning the free throw makes. less turnovers

and just like be better. You get more transition opportunity. Is it like some of this stuff is just so bad. Yeah. Where it's just like this doesn't look like championship level

offensive execution in the half court. Like you don't belong in the NBA finals playing like this. And I know that, you know, we're supposed to have better analysis than this but I don't know what to tell you. I'm watching people just throw the ball to the other team.

What's the solution to that? Yeah, the adjustment really is don't turn the ball over 18 times, as we've alluded to. Look, I think one thing that worked for the warrior in the warrior's favor in game five, and it was almost by accident. I think some of it was deliberate was in the first half, they really let Steph pace himself. And he was deliberately off ball. He was not moving a ton like he normally would be. they were working through Clay

and working through Wiggins and working through Draymond and trying to establish these other guys and basically saving Steph's legs for what seemed like it was going to be a second half surge that just never came.

You don't get that if you're Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. And so I think that's the reality of if you're the Celtics and you go down big in the first quarter, you're going to lose. You need to have the margin for error early to move away from those guys

to at least get some possessions off the ball where they're not in demand all the time because if you're going to play them 44 minutes, which I think you have to, like we're down to a two game season. Those guys have to play 42, 44, 46 minutes. That's the way it has to work with this rotation. Then you have to find ways within the game to let them pace themselves so that they're not just throwing the ball into the hands of expected warriors who know exactly where to be.

Yeah. If I'm the Celtics, though, I'm really worried that Clay has now seen enough shots go in, that he's playing with even more confidence than he probably had before when it was, at time seemed a little bit more like a show of confidence, but maybe secretly he was worried like, oh, damn, do I still have this? Now, maybe they don't get some of these performances from Poole who's been touching go. Maybe they don't get another big Peyton game. Maybe Tremon doesn't dribble at all this game, as opposed to the one dribble he took in order to get to the basket early in the first quarter in that last game. But like, I don't know, man, like getting those guys going is a

really dicey proposition. But I do want to talk about the turnovers too there. Because I think ultimately I keep coming back to the idea of like what if the Celtics just had one ball handler? You know, like it kind of is the existential question of I guess the season they had post January where it's like, oh, we're this team, we're switchy. We have an identity. We're great. Awesome. But it's just like I get establishing that identity, but not having any go-to ball handlers in the situation just to clean up what's going on here just really seems to be. like their fatal flaw. And it's just like, it's really tough, man.

So you're stuck on these game to game flips and turns where it's basically like, are they going to shoot themselves in the foot? Is Jalen Brown going to literally dribble off his foot five times or just like bobble, a catch and whatnot? And it's like, I don't know. It would be really nice to just have one guy who could pass and dribble and do all those things. I mean, they're in the finals. I know, but like it's the one thing holding the back right now.

And, like, they could find it this offseason. Maybe there's, like, a capable veteran guy that they could just plug in there. And that solves it and they get back. And they win next year. But, like, for right now, it's just like, God damn, they're just so close. I think that's what makes it feel so agonizing is that they are so close. Because, honestly, if this wasn't the Warriors, if this was any other style of defense, I don't think it'd be as big a deal.

But the way the Warriors have been covering and scrambling between guys, it's just hard to see the angles, to see the lanes through that. Yeah. It doesn't help that when the Warriors turn it over because as we know, like for a long time, one of the biggest Achilles heels for the Warriors was their turnover. It's like when they turn it over,

it's like the most beautiful mistake ever. It's like they'll just contort their bodies in a way that like you've never seen before because it's so athletic. Or like they barely missed a half court, a backdoor cut or, you know, it's something like that. Like a driving kick, the angle was a little bit off.

Right. These guys are just like, no, here's a freaking pick six. Go ahead. Yeah, right. You hear the Kirby Enthusiasm theme song, like whenever Jalen Brown catches the ball. It's just like it really only enhances. The NBA Finals are here and so is your chance to score big on Fandual Sportsbook. Throughout the NBA finals, Fandual is giving new customers $200 in free bets guaranteed.

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1-800-889-9-9-9 or visit www. www.1-800 gambler.net in West Virginia. You want to do quick finals MVP watch? Yeah, and it should be quick. I just feel like... This shit is not like... Even yesterday when Steph has a bad game, just watch the game.

Wiggins drop 26 points on 23 shots, by the way. It's not like he was out there, you know, on some... on another level. Like, he had a good game offensively, But all the airspace is created by the attention that Steph is getting. When Wiggins is attacking a closeout on at the end of a shot clock and he's able to operate in the one-on-one, like nobody even bothers sending help his way at the end of the freaking shot clock

and he gets to shoot over a guy from seven feet, yeah, that's Steph Curry. That is Steph Curry. So even when he's not the one finishing the possessions, he has so much influence on all of their success on that end. I don't want to hear nothing. It's Steph. It's Steph Curry, man. He has been by far clearly the best player in this series.

It's not a contest. He's been way better than everybody else. Better than Pritchard? Barely, you know what? Bealita has a kid. case. Yeah, right. I told you guys

about the Luke Babit effect. I want to go on record here. Oh, for Bialisa. Yeah, that's exactly what's

happening. They kept going at him because he's a goofy white guy and look what happened to him. They messed around and found out, that's for sure.

Jason Tatum, not trying that again. Right. So, Rob, any counterpoints to the Steph Curry finals MVP?

I guess, like, no. If he has another bad, I know, I know. But what if he has a bad game? Are you considering anybody else?

If we didn't do this terrible charade with Igudala already in 2015, I think there would be a chance. But I think everybody in the media collectively feels like a big old dickhead for having done that shit in 2015 with Igudala. And it's not going to happen again. I don't know about this collective responsibility. There's a pretty finite number of people with ballots in that situation. Well, did you see Sports Illustrated did a story where they went back?

and talk to everyone who voted for Igwadala. I did not see that. Is this like the JFK assassination where you really had to go back to the grassy knoll? Yeah, it's deserved because it was that egregious. Yeah, I guess so. Man, average 12 points a game. What are we doing?

Oh, and he held LeBron to 40 points. It's ridiculous. Just the fact that that was the point of comparison was do we give it to Iguidala or do we give it to the guy who lost on the other team who Iguodala guarded? Right, right. I mean, I love defense, but come on, guys.

Why are we still here, is my question, Justin. Can we just give it to Steph and move on, at least if they win? Okay. Last thing I had on this game, do we want to talk about the win horse comments at all? What do you want to talk about? Well, so Brian, our dear friend,

I guess on a radio, no, I think it was a TV hit. He basically alluded to the fact that the Warriors were outspending most of the NBA, if not all of the NBA, by a significant amount of money. And he basically alluded to the fact, well, like, this helps in these situations. And he caught a lot of flack for it. And I guess the timing was a little off. And so that's why people seem offended by it. But I looked at that and I'm like, well, no shit.

Like, yeah, that's part of it. Wait, so Wendy Wendy said that the Warriors are outspending NBA teams as far as like their salary? I think, I think because they're deep into the tax. Yeah.

Raised people's hackles. Is that the expression? Raise their hackles? Sure. What irked people was he called it a checkbook win. They're like, oh, they have Andrew,

they have Andrew Wiggins, no offense to Andrew Wiggins, but the reason they have Andrew Wiggins is because they were willing to pay this enormous tax bill. Therefore, not only was it a, win. It was a checkbook win.

So what is this diminishing Golden State's accomplishment? Because their owner was willing to pay for greatness? What are we doing here? We don't want to encourage teams to pay for players?

Like, this seems like I don't know. That's crazy to me. I mean, like, that is... I think that's the takeaway for me. And like, I'm basically throwing this up to you guys so I could just work my way. in here and do the take myself. But like I feel like we should be applauding this.

100%. If you are the fan base of an NBA team, you do not want your owners operating the way the fucking Kronkies do. Period. That's just insane. Like the entire point of these fucking people and why they get to profit off of the work

that these players do is that they come with money. They do nothing else. They add absolute. nothing else to the equation. The fans bring the attention, the money, the enthusiasm, the love, the glory, all of that shit. The players bring the work,

the entertainment factor, you know, the scarcity of their skill set. The owners don't bring shit. So if they're not spending, what are they doing? They do nothing else. Nobody can convince me that they do anything else for this product.

So why would we discourage them from doing their fucking job? jobs enthusiastically at that. I'm totally with you. I'm not even sure what wind horse implication was exactly other than making a snazzy line, which it was. But I agree. We should flip this thing. Like, this was not a checkbook win.

The Milwaukee Bucks losing their series was a checkbook loss. You know, like letting a guy like PJ Tucker walk for money, strictly money. That's a checkbook loss. And I think there are a lot of teams around the league who take checkbook Ls on a very regular basis, dumping veterans for draft picks, shipping guys around at the deadline to duck under the line. You see this all over the place

with contenders as much as anyone else, to be honest. By the way, in a culture where we valorize guys for taking less money, hurting their own personal fucking pocketbook, why the fuck don't we do that to owners? Yeah. How about your bottom line is decreased? Good fucking job, bro.

You made less money. Good for you. I do you think part of this is like we live in such a woge, world where we're constantly hearing about this guy makes this or like the transaction game is such a big part of this that on the one hand it's good that we follow the money and we kind of understand the NBA on a transactional level. We know why decisions are made, but it does get to this point where people are like talking about the luxury tax and getting out of the luxury tax

as if it's a good thing, right? Like I constantly hear like, oh, they made X, Y move and they They got out of the luxury tax, so this is good for them. And I'm just like, I don't give a shit about that. I really do not care. And I don't know why we should care. Especially when it's not like the Warriors are grossly outspending everyone else. They outspent the second place team, with the Clippers, by like $10 million. And that's including the tax?

No, that's just on straight salary. So obviously there are tax implications that multiply that. And it becomes much more painful. But again, I don't care. You don't care. Pay the tax bill. By the way, and you know what? Your point is very astute, Justin, in the coverage of this kind of stuff where teams are

considered smart, quote unquote, for ducking the tax, for saving their, like, saving their owners. And there's a way to look at this in a more charitable way towards ownership and say, well, you know, the restrictiveness of repeater tax makes it harder to do XYZ, which then makes it harder for the team to be better. which then makes it harder to make the fans happier. It don't really make it harder. It's just that these dudes are cheap.

And so it's like, oh, I don't, nothing is stopping it. The sort of, quote unquote, onerous nature of the tax is onerous in so much as these, I repeat, billionaire, filthy, rich fucking billionaires who will get to profit off of this team in perpetuity so long as they choose to or they get to sell the team

at a ridiculous profit if they're tired of it. Like, what are we really talking about? Oh, well, you know, at a certain point, the owner's only allowed to spend so much. Why the fuck do we applaud that? Why don't we fucking lampoon these motherfuckers for that? Like, I just don't get this. You know what's funny about this specific example, too,

is I'm pretty sure that when the Warriors traded DeAngelo Russell and a couple of bench players for Andrew Wiggins, they ducked under the luxury tax. Yeah, they did. You can fact check us on that, but I'm pretty sure that was the case in which, like, I mean, they spent afterwards, there's no question about that.

And they've kept guys on the roster and extended and re-signed players, as is their want and they're right and as every team should be doing. Like, you should pay to keep a core are like the most accomplished one in modern NBA history around. It's not rocket science.

And as far as I'm concerned, what we should be doing is giving props and praise to Joe fucking Lekup. Because why? Because he spends, which is his job, and also he's empowered competent people within his organization.

So they are owners who do the one. You know, hire some competent people, get the hell up out of the way and let them run the basketball. stuff, and then they can worry about shit like, you know, corporate partnerships and strategic brand partnerships and getting checks, and you can worry about all that other shit. But getting out of the way of the basketball people and opening up your damn pocketbook, that's a model owner, and we should be lifting this man up in the media.

We should not be pillorying this guy's efforts in spending to make a team championship caliber. We should be killing those fools in Milwaukee. We should be killing the Kronkies for letting an incredible exemplary GM leave for no damn reason but for the fact that they cheap as hell. You know, like that's

what we should be doing. In conclusion, vote was for Players Association Chief. I don't know. It sounded like he was lobbying for a job from Joe Lakeb on that one. Joe, give me a call. All right. Since we have our

checkbooks out. You guys want to talk about the NBA offseason briefly? I'll allow it, you know? So there was a brief update this morning, actually, in Bleach Report. Jake Fisher had a big scuttle butt column just tapping into some recent things that are going on here. Utah Jazz,

Lana Hawks, Indiana Pacers. A lot of our favorites. Honestly, I figured we do a complete segment checking in on some of these theme, but I wanted to give us as much space impossible as this one, because Zach Levine, there's a little bit of update here. The latest intel,

according to our friend Jake Fisher, he's expected to re-sign with the Chicago Bowles. They are still... Resign with who? The Chicago Bulls. I don't know if you've heard them. They're still ironing

out in air quotes, some details on the fifth year, whether or not it will be a player option, but all signs point to a deal for, in quotes, roughly $200 million. Rob, do you have any thoughts? I feel like I've already expressed my thoughts on this particular subject.

I feel like this is business as expected, business as usual. I, for one, never doubted that Zach Levine was going to be leaving the Chicago Bulls. So let me say this. I think in a way, we were both kind of right, you know? I'm listening. Well, because amidst this report, it's alluded to a, again, in quotes, purported desire to be, in quotes, the unquestioned office. offensive centerpiece, unlike the setup with DeMarrozen. So, not ideal, right? And it also

sounds like the Bulls are aware of the fact that they probably need to get Levine some more help, including the one nugget that they're shopping two-time All-Star Nikola Vucevic in a deal that could potentially bring them back Rudy Gobert. They don't want to give a Patrick Williams, yada, yada, yada, yada. So I think the genesis of like, or what was spurring my my conspiracy theories, let's just call it what it was, to maybe think outside of Chicago, was that like the Bull's long-term vision,

like, I don't know if the runway is as long as some of these other teams that he could have potentially gone to. For instance, San Antonio Spurs, another team we brought out that doesn't get mentioned because I spent so much time

talking about the droid pistons, it's Spurs. I think he would be, like, if he went to the Spurs, Spurs, would be way better off than he would be with Chicago, especially after, like a year or two down the road, right?

I think like there is within this report a tacit acknowledgement that like, you know, maybe things aren't great long term with the Bulls, but $200 million, a lot of money. This is a noble attempt, but I do not accept that wriggly ass take you're trying to pull here. Can't buy it though. Yeah, and to me it just feels like this was always about

are you going to offer me my fifth year or not? Like that's basically what the conversation has been for going on two years now, where it's like, are you going to give me my fifth year? If you're on some, oh, we guaranteeing four, I can get guaranteed four somewhere else. And I don't need to deal with an organization that doesn't value me enough to offer me five years

when they have the ability to, right? Which is just a weird sort of political dynamics that the max contract and the supermax creates between teams and their own players. The fifth year is a status symbol. And we've seen, and, you know, I was somebody, again, who underrated the status symbol with DeAndre Aiton last year, where it's like the status symbol is,

as soon as we could extend you, we do it because we think you're so great, right? And you don't, and you bruise a guy's ego. Same goes for a guy who's like, I'm a max guy, I'm your max guy. Pay me as much as you possibly can for as long as you possibly. can because anything else would mean that you're not pot committed with me. And that's

an ego bruise to these guys. And so, you know, Zach Levine got his fifth year. And so he's going to stay. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the Supermax because I think that's like the more interesting ripple effects as we kind of go into the off season. Like a lot of what's popping up now, I mean, there's probably going to be a bunch of trades that we don't foresee and we'll deal with that when it happens. But the primary storylines right now, it seems. seems to be like in addition to like the jazz and what's going to happen to them, it's Levine, does he resign? Seems like he might. And Bradley Beal looks like he is on course to resign with the Washington Wizards.

But as we talked about with Beal and what I want to talk about now with Levine is like, is that in the best interest for the teams that are signing them? And we talk so much about the Supermax and like what a failure it's been over the past couple years. And that was specifically because players who could have opted into that and taken as much money didn't and went elsewhere, right? They didn't actually, the lure of more money actually wasn't as appealing to playing with the Lakers or a big market team or a team they could have the success on, right? I do wonder if this completely buries the supermax like 30 feet under or whatever

because guys who aren't worth the supermax actually take the supermax in two, three years from now, these contracts are going to be absolutely putrid. And that's actually going to be what spurs a big change of that in the next CBA. So you're pivoting from actually I was kind of half right to I'm wrong, but Zach Levine is ruining basketball. That's where we are? Right. Exactly.

I think the owners always find themselves in search of a problem that doesn't exist, right? And the ultimate, like, ultimately the truth is that human beings are going to adapt and they're the situation work best for their own interests under whatever rules you come up with. And you're not going to be able to box these guys in to however you want them to behave because of what you think is the best for you. Right? And so in other words, it's like, all right, take away team's abilities to sign guys to long-term seven-year deals.

So guys are like, shit, I don't know. not three-year deals. I'll be a free agent quicker. I don't have the security, but there's this other thing that I value where I get to be my own boss and make my own decisions super duper early, right? Like, there's always going to be this give and take, this push and pull. And so with the supermax, again, you create this world where this supermax exists. And it's like, yeah, just because a guy isn't LeBron James, doesn't mean he's not going to think he's the LeBron James of your team. And that's when you end up paying Bradley Bill to an $150 million to not be LeBron James, you know?

And so the owners can never get it through their heads that like, sorry, guys, life doesn't always work completely and utterly in your favor. And people aren't always going to submit to your freaking will. I notice how you're used to every single other fucking thing happening in your life. It doesn't get to happen here. Get over it. Yeah, the status symbols you were talking about was they exist no matter what the system is. Like, it's just going to move.

It's going to change shape. that's fine. And this is why every version of the CBA has all, they're just rife with unintended consequences every single time. They're in search of these problems as was laid out that may or may not even exist. They implement some new structure to try to change it. And in doing so, they create new status symbols for players to chase and that vis-a-vis Justin ruined basketball. All right. Well, we'll keep an eye on that as we pivot to the off season. But next week when we come back. We won't have basketball to talk about or actual games to talk about. So

all we'll have is off-season talk. Can you guys believe it? We made a full season of this podcast. Love it. Couldn't it chose two better brothers to do it with? Love you guys. Those are the warm and fuzzies we can end an episode on. You guys. And we'll then let me take some time to thank

Isaiah Blakely, who managed the soldier through an entire season with us on production. So thank you to Isaiah. Maybe put in some like dynamic hand clapping in the mitts here if you'd like. That's really up to you. But yeah, until then, we'll be back next week.

We will see you later.