The Ringer NBA Show - How Do the Great NBA Teams Stay Good? | The Answer

Episode Date: October 18, 2022

Seerat and Kyle start the pod by sharing their excitement for the new NBA season and discussing the intricacies of Krav Maga. They then examine some of the teams that are looking to make a big leap this year, before debating the elements of what makes a great NBA team and the franchises that have managed to maintain continuous success—notably the Spurs and the Warriors.(5:40) This leads to a conversation about Draymond Green's role in nurturing new teammates on the Warriors, the complications in doing so, and how young assets like Jordan Poole and Jonathan Kuminga will change the team's overall strategy going forward.(19:28) Next, they speculate on a look at Bam Adebayo's role with Miami this year and touch on some of the other bigs looking to make some noise in the coming season.(36:11) Hosts: Seerat Sohi and J. Kyle Mann Production Supervision: Conor Nevins Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mac Jones is ripped. Matt Patricia's calling plays. The Celtics are title favorites. And The Ringer has a new Boston show. I'm Brian Barrett, host of Off the Pike, the show covering all things Boston Sports. I'll have shows multiple times a week covering your favorite teams and with your favorite ringer and local guests. Plus, maybe Bill will stop by to rant about the socks. Follow off the pike with me, Brian Barrett, now on Spotify.

I'm into the answer where I personally am very excited because not only is the opening night tonight. And I came home yesterday just, you know, I was just like, I took the remote and I was like twitching. I was just like, I want to turn on some basketball. I just want to turn on some basketball. There was no basketball to watch. So I'm very excited. We've got Lakers Warriors tonight. We've got Sixers, Celtics.

And I have Kyle Mad in front of me about to give you these wonderful takes and make me smarter, make you smarter. So it's going to be a good time. How are you doing, Kyle? I'm excited, you know, this is. the kind i always think of that uh that michael scott meme i don't know if you're an office person i just remember that whole show for some reason it's just hardwired into my brain but like when he like is gonna when toby's moving away and he comes into work early and he's like strutting around the office

i always think of that meme where he's like he can't contain himself and he's like doing these uh he's like oh i couldn't sleep i've said this over and over again i think that like the sort of covid run that we had where the seasons were just on top of each other and the flow was all off It just sort of, I think it robbed us of the Christmas feeling that you get that like it's been a long enough time. It's time to come back. Like I'm, and I'm somebody that consumes basketball. It never stops, right? But there's something about the new games, the new storylines, the questions of like who's going to be.

What are the young guys going to do? What are the rookies going to look like? That's super exciting because our expectations are different and things like that. That stuff gets me, you know, riled up. I'm ready for the season to start. And these opening matchups especially, yeah, there's always a little bit of, let's prove something, make a statement before we settle into sort of the drudgery of, you know, like February, Tuesday night game. Like, I'm excited to get started. Me too, me too.

Before we begin, you reminded me. I experienced something very devastating a few days ago. I found out that somebody that I'm dating does not like the office. Like, in fact, hates the office and thinks that isn't it, that it isn't funny. Really? And, yeah, like, I was, I still am, I'm really enjoying my time with this person, but oh, my God. Like, that really just, that. It's, since it's not on Netflix, I've noticed a little bit of, like, a cultural, like, it's not as saturated, you know, it's not as easy to find.

Anyway, the office is a great show. Is there going to be a cultural backlash against the office? I don't think so. I think I'm just saying it's not as accessible. You said something to me that was interesting last night, though, when you were like, oh, I got to go. I've got to go to Krav Maga class, which when you first sent me that, I was thinking, okay, I always think it's funny when people leave text message, like conversations. I'm like, just answer when you can answer. I don't really kid.

You don't have to say, see you later. It always makes me laugh when people do that. I'm like, just get back to me when you need to. But you went to, you know, when I saw MAGA and the title, I was. a little curious. Can you shed a little light on what this was about? Because I just feel like we're learning more and more about the worldly fascinating series. Tell us about what that is. Well, this is where, you know, like every, everybody has, everybody has their pros and cons, right? Like, she doesn't like the office, but she's gotten me into Krav Maga. So, yeah, it was my

second class ever. So it's not an expert by any means, but it is basically. basically a form of self-defense that is actually, I think it's, I think the Israeli Army trains its soldiers to learn Kravmaga. And it is just like, it is a form of combat. It's really interesting. So I've done a couple of these. Like I've dabbled into Muay, which is really fun, but is a lot more, like, focused on the technical aspect of it and like just kind of like, and you're just like, you're just

in the gym, essentially, right? And it's just kind of like about sparring within those conditions. Like, you know, you got your, you got a whole bunch of stuff. You got headgear. You have like your gloves and stuff. Whereas Croft Maga is actually like, I don't know if every Krav Maga classes like this, but mine essentially like the instructors come at it from a perspective of when you are attacked, when you have five or six people attacking you at the same time.

Like when somebody approaches you with a knife, when somebody approaches you with a gun, here's what you do. It's like this assumption. And there's always sort of like violence going on around you and you have to protect yourself. Assume violence. Assume violence, right? You know, I'm here. I'm just thinking, you know, and I don't want to hold up the basketball part of this.

But like I'm just thinking last week you tell me about being a part of a gang of ruffians who are on a basketball team together. And this week you're telling me about learning to like embrace violence and large groups. And I'm just saying it's it's an interesting puzzle that's come together here. So that's all I'm saying. Well, you know, we all contain multitudes. It's true. It is true. Most of us.

But, yeah, not to hold up the basketball part of this. Today, we are going to, we are going to talk about some of the young players in the league. Not all of the young players, not all the young teams. You published your young core rankings last week alongside Zach Cram, and I thought that there were a lot of interesting things in it. The thing that stood out to me the most is probably just the amount of the amount of teams that seem to be on this two-timeline developmental thing where they have veterans and they also have young players. And they're also trying to win a title at the same time. That's a lot of different threads to try to needle at once. And the Warriors, obviously, famously are a very

successful example of that won a championship last year while also developing a young team, but are now kind of at a different point where they are, getting a little bit more into their youth movement, too. They're going to be much more reliant on players like Jonathan Kaminga and Wiseman and Moody this year. And those guys are relative unknowns in, at least in terms of what they can bring to a championship contending team. And there are a number of teams in the league that are like this this year.

You've got the heat with Bamadabio, with Tyler Hero. You got the Sixers, you know, really hoping that Maxi makes a leap, which it looks like he could. You got Denver with Michael Porter Jr. You've got the wolves hoping that ant makes a third year leap. You got the pelicans with Zion coming back. And obviously there's the sons, too, who were kind of the only team that I think actually approached this in more of a formulaic way where they purposefully added a veteran to a team of young players and made the finals two years ago.

And, you know, they're probably going to hope that they get a little bit of a leap from McHale Bridges and DeAndre Aidan. But there are challenges within that. There's, you know, you have to, you have to have an infrastructure that is suited to be able to develop and, you know, contend at the same time, which is actually much more difficult than just saying that you want to do it. Like, everybody would love to, you know, as Joe Lik said, the winning never stops. Everybody would love to win and then also have, you know, a future set in place. but it's much more difficult than just saying that. So we're going to jump into a bunch of that stuff today.

Yeah, I think just kind of in a broad sense, if you look at like the way teams work and the way, you know, every organization kind of has their short-term thinking, like what are they operating on? And usually like the timelines of the players on the roster dictate that, you know. And sometimes if you look at the way this, the archetypes of teams that work in the NBA, you know, sometimes we'll have young,

has come along that are drafted together that have playoff success together like the young core is also the the the thing that is driving the team if you think about and you know some i think that takes like super special player types if you think about like the orlando magic in the 90s those were like historically like special superstar players they had some veterans bolstering them with like i feel like you are you're were you even able to watch those teams did you watch those Orlando teams lives here with like was shack and penny but like nick anerson dennis scott she's shaking her head she did lord no she did not my earliest uh my earliest randandah magic team was like the uh the the white howard uh dukeleu yeah like charlie luis gets suspended sure sure i mean memphis i think is the is the

best current version of that you know and i think the question that we're asking here is about, like, can you be in the midst of a title hunt in earnest and, like, and have a veteran group, but also have a young group that's developing at the same time? To be honest, that just doesn't really happen very much because teams that have, like, title level pedigree or they are competitive in that sense, something has to happen for them to be able to accrue the kinds of picks that would allow them to have the types of foundational talent, unless you just are a really great team and there's an example of this that we can talk about cough san antonio um it just doesn't really happen and the warriors like we talked i know we talked about draymond and the warriors we're

going to talk about them in a different way this week but like the warriors are in a situation where they ended their you know one leg of their title window closed in the fact that like they just kind of tired out in 2019 you know step got hurt clay got hurt drant gets injured and leaves they have that really down year in 2020 and end up with some picks. So now they're really one of the more unique cases in the league where they have two totally compartmentalized cores from each other. They have their dynasty core and another one waiting in the wings like you were saying. You know, as we were looking at some of the teams that we were going to talk about,

one thing that I noticed, and I think actually San Antonio falls into this too, is that you actually just, most teams don't plan to be in this situation. Something happens. And that happened with San Antonio too. when they got Duncan, it was because David Robinson broke his foot and they lost a bunch of games and got the number one pick. And then, you know, decades later, it's just they happen to just really nail Kauai Leonard, drafting him and developing him as well. And with the Warriors, like you said, they had the injury history. The Raptors aren't necessarily a contender, but they had, you know, this disastrous bubble season, which landed them the fourth pick.

And then that fourth pick happened to be Scotty Barnes, you know. The heat just like really like they nailed a high lottery pick and BAM. The Sixers nailed a maxi pick. So like it's you got to nail the draft. And with Denver, it's like they took the risk on a guy like Michael Porter Jr. High in the lottery who is incredibly talented but has injury concerns at the same time. So you do have to you have to get lucky and then in that you have to get really unlucky.

You know, like you have to have something disastrous happen to you and then have that disaster be temporary. Yeah, and I think that you were talking about, I mean, it's understandable that Toronto would have a reset. I mean, the year, the bubble season, I guess they, they were in the playoffs in that awesome series against the Celtics. I guess it was 2021 when they reset and then a lot of their veterans just kind of. Yeah, not the bubble season. They're Florida season, my bad. Sure, sure, sure.

Their COVID season. But I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, scouting edge. if you're a team that is trying to like extend your your window and like bolster it like a lot of these teams kind of have commonalities and that like they have strong cultures they have like an identity of like the types of players that they go after like the spurs you were talking about back in like the early 2000s it's like yeah they got dunkin but then they also hit on manu with like the 57th pick which is insane and then and then they hit on tony parker late in the first round too all you really have to do is make contact with the ball two times like they did there and that can like extend your

your window, but it's like, I was just trying to kind of think about like teams that like the Grizzlies have continued. It's, it just seems like scouting is sort of the thing that allows these teams to continue to function at a high level and into, I don't know that you can replace. Can you get core pieces? Like if you're a good team in drafting in the late first round every single year, I don't know. I think we'll see with Jordan Poole, but it seems like scouting is like kind of the critical thing among all these teams, right? Yeah, scouting in development, which is, that's always a difficult conversation because it's like, is it the chicken or the egg? Is it because you scout well or is it because you develop well?

I imagine it has to be a combination of both. So Anthony Slater actually had this great piece in the athletic yesterday about this. And one of the things that was in there was, you know, at the same time in the lead up to the 2021 draft when everybody was like, hey, should the Warriors package, you know, the number two pick and some of these other picks that they have and try to get a star like Bradley B. you know, try to just bolster the roster that they have with another veteran star. They had actually already hired Jama Melalela from the Raptors who worked with the Raptors 905 and was just like really instrumental in their development, Kenny Atkinson, who is, as we know, it was an instrumental in the development of the young nets before they were traded off for the big three. Runted into the sun.

Yeah. Yeah. Where the culture and the good vibes were immediately abandoned. Yes. It was sort of, you know what it reminded me of? Have you ever seen a wet, hot American summer? Have you ever seen that movie? It's like they get to the end of the movie and Michael Schoelwaltor's character, like,

is in love with the one girl, I forget. And they like, obviously, it like turns the like 80s summer camp movie thing on its head where it's like, oh, we have chemistry. Don't you like me? And then she's like, no, Paul Rudd is really hot. And she just went with Paul. That's what it reminded me. They were like, oh, we have great chemistry.

These are great vibes. like, it's Kevin Durant, bye. Yeah, it's a cold world, man. It's a cold world. It is. Yeah. The cool kids win. Yeah, and they also hired Dejan Milojivik.

I hope I am not portraying that pronunciation, but he was also. The Cliffs notes, Yokic's guy. Yeah, the guy who coached Yokic on Mega B Max from like 17 to, I forget what age. But, yeah, a big development guy for big guys. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. who is like, you know, Kaban Luni has credited him with, you know, just helping make him a little bit more of a fluid player.

I'm sure he works with Wiseman and stuff too. He does. But the point is before that draft, they had already hired those guys. And that is a big part of this. Like, you have to have the infrastructure and you have to have, you know, a staff that's like, not a staff and ownership group that's probably willing to spend more money so they can hire a bigger coaching staff.

So they have these developmental guys. But they also have, you know, the X's and O's guys, the Ron Adams, the Mike Browns, who's left the franchise now, but was a part of last year's franchise, who will, you know, help with what is going on right now. You have to have kind of both of those tracks working at the same time. And, you know, like, I also, you know, like the Raptors would have multiple practices where they'd have a young guy's practice and they have the old guys practice as well.

And like, there are benefits to that, certainly. Like, I think one of the, one of the huge benefits with the Kauai Leonard 2019 season in Toronto was the fact that, you know, when Kauai, and to a lesser extent, Kyle would either be her or load managing, you have young legs that, A, are happy to get on the court and be able to play and get reps. And it just kind of makes the whole idea of load management a little bit more seamless. Whereas I think that, like, if you had, well, you saw it was the Clippers in Kauai's first year there. When Kauai came to the Clippers and was load managing and all that stuff, all those guys we're kind of like, hey, we're old too, you know?

Right. Like there is, so there are definitely, there are some benefits to it as well, but you have to, like, you have to really actually want to do it that way. And I think like that's, that's why the Warriors have been able to be successful. And also, like you look at like a team like the heat as well, right? Like they've taken lot, like high end lottery picks and first round picks that, you know, weren't necessarily supposed to hit scouted really well and then actually done a really good job. of developing them too because they've always been one of the better developmental teams like they take they take undrafted guys like like Duncan Robinson so like imagine you know what they're going to do with Batman at a buy or a tower hero tip off the NBA season with Van Duil America's number one sports book new customers get $150 in free bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet plus Van Duel is the only sports book that's giving all customers three months of NBA league pass when they make a $5 bet on the NBA then you can watch all the actions you bet on everything from the

the money line to point spreads to totals. Going into the regular season, the over-under for Denver is 51.5, and last year they won 48 games, and they didn't have Jamal Murray, and they didn't have Michael Porter Jr., and they didn't have Bruce Brown and Contavius Caldwell Pope, so I'm going to go ahead and smash the over on that. I definitely think they can make out four wins this year with those guys. And another team that I want to hit the over on is Miami. 49.5, that feels a little low to me as well.

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The other thing that I think you need, which is also a great point that you made when we were talking about this, is players who are invested in actually trying to improve the guys, you know, that are coming in ahead of them, right? and I think with Toronto, a guy that you mentioned was Fred Van Ville, but I think, you know, before the Kauai trade, even to Mar-de-Rosen, was a guy who's really invested in the young guys. Kyle Lowry is a guy who's really invested in the young guys.

And this is actually a point that Slater makes in his piece about the Warriors, is that, you know, Kyle Lowry in helping to develop Fred Van der Leet also kind of, you know, he just molded his own replacement in a way, right? And I think that actually worked out fine because by the time that Kyle Lowry left the Raptors, it was like he was completely like just minted in gold and everybody just respected the hell out of him. And I think a lot of that has to do with how he treated his younger teammates. And also like it's not like it actually hurt him. You know, like he went to Miami because he wanted to win the championship.

But I think if he wanted to come back to the Raptors, like they would have figured something out. It would have changed their realities in some ways for what the team is. But I don't think that either side would have balked at the idea of bringing him back, but it does sort of bring us to an interesting point with the Warriors now, where you know, Draymond Green has been a player who has always been really

invested in that too. And then Steph Curry and Clay and Igwadala, they've always been, they've been great teachers as well, right? So it's all of these guys, but Draymond is obviously the most interesting point right now because it looks like he might have actually developed

his replacements before he's necessarily ready to go. Now, a lot of that is we're having this conversation, obviously, because of the punch and because, you know, what it could mean for the roster construction. You can't get away from it. It's like the punch was a big deal. Yeah, it was a big deal. It was a big deal. Yeah.

I think something that we're talking about here, though, is that like to keep these things going, and I have a question about, like, developing your replacement. Like, I think that that's interesting. That whole idea is interesting. To keep these things going, it's like you have to have. so much. I was thinking about a metaphor. I don't know. Have you ever heard of circular breathing? Have you ever heard of this? Like in music? This is something that like people that play horns and play anything that requires air is like that when you're holding a long note and when you circular breathe, it means you don't stop to take another breath. You can the the note continues

and you somehow have like breathed into your nose. I think is how they do it. And then you it's a continuous flow of air. So it's like for teams that are really good to continue. you have to develop this ability and this consciousness that you need to continue to bring in new air. And it's like for some teams just to hold a note to begin with, they struggle to do that. Like for franchises that are trying to get off the ground and hold like a singular sort of cultural idea that's going to last and stick in the NBA is one way. But if you think about the spurs, the raptors, the warriors, the heat, these are teams that have had success. and then they and they've also been able to sort of thread the needle and continue to bring in new talent. But I was going to ask you, do you think that, do you think that like where you're picked?

Does that, does that affect the sort of like level of experience players, like how much they feel threatened? Because you were talking about Kyle Lowry developing Fred Van Vleet. What if Fred Van Vleet had been a top three pick coming in with like investment? Do you think the level of investment in a player, like how much money they make? because sometimes when a higher pick comes in, they're like, okay, you're costing us this much. We need this much reward. You got to play. If a player is drafted later, does that affect?

Do you think that has any impact on how well they're mentored or is it conditional to the team? That's a good question. I'd imagine it's probably situational. Like if you look at the Warriors, Wiseman number two pick, comminga number seven pick, I think, what pick was Moody? 14th, I think. 14th, maybe 15th, somewhere in there, like mid first round. Those guys were high-level picks, right? And I think that a different franchise might put pressure on Steve Kerr to like,

hey, let's get Jonathan Kaminga these minutes. Obviously, Wiseman was hurt, but the Warriors kind of threaded that needle pretty well where, you know, they were trying to win a championship. So while Kaminga and Moody got some run during the regular season got some garbage time run, and, you know, there were times when Drayman was hurt. There were times when Iguodala was hurt. those those were kind of the moments where they got to show what they could do. But at the same time, I think there was always this understanding of like,

you can't be part of this playoff rotation unless you're actually ready for it. And that kind of, it felt like that always underscored the season for them. So maybe that had to do with why, you know, maybe the players didn't necessarily feel threatened by it. But I think it actually just has to do with who you are as like as the older player, you know? Like, it's just like, I don't know, it's just kind of human psychology. Like if you want to find a reason to be insecure about being replaced, you will find those reasons anywhere. And if you aren't going to look at it that way,

then you're just not going to look at it that way. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, totally. But I don't know. It's a good question. I wonder if there has been like the situation that immediately comes to my mind is like the Aaron Rogers stuff. When the Packers,

he's a person on pick to drop a quarterback. I don't know that basketball necessarily has that. I think the one that comes to mind right. now is probably Monta Ellis when the Warriors drafted Curry. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then they drafted Clay Thompson after, and I think that pretty much spelled his end there. In Marcus Thompson's book.

Golden. And that what I do recall that there were some issues with that. Like Ellis wasn't necessarily ready to give up the keys. And Steph was kind of on the page of like, hey, we can kind of, maybe we can do something special together here. But they kind of, it seems like they had some friction. And I think that's actually for, you know, I would imagine that's actually typical. I would imagine that most franchises, like, look, we're talking about the success stories here.

We're talking about doing something that is actually, frankly, like, in most situations, impossible and might actually not necessarily work out that well for the Warriors or the heat going forward, at least in the immediate future, right? Like, we don't necessarily know. And that's something I'd actually, like, love to get into now. Like, one of the things that I started thinking about was the fact that, because we have a lot of these teams that are trying to win a championship and really relying on young players to be a big part of the rotation and not really knowing who they're going to be, not really knowing what kind of jump they're going to make, is that there are a lot of unknowns with these contenders. You know, like, we don't know if, so Kamiga had a great preseason.

I think, and this kind of goes to your point of these teams have great cultures. And they already have, they already have like this sort of instituted way of doing things. I think Kaminga in year one came in. And while he was great, he got a lot of opportunities. And, you know, he just gave the Warriors his athletic punch that like, when the Warriors have an athletic player, like kind of happened with Gary Payton, the moments that James Wiseman has been healthy. It's been like, whoa.

Like when they have a guy that can catch lobs, it's just like, it adds this other dynamic to them. And it's just like, it's really exciting. But the same time, I think we saw Kaminga, you know, we fall into moments of tunnel vision. necessarily know how to play alongside, you know, Curry and Clay yet and, and pool when he got to. And I think, like, even Wiggins went through the same thing in his first few months in Golden State. And slowly, like, he started to figure it out. And I think what we're seeing from Kaminga in year two is he is figuring it out. Like, their last preseason game

against Denver, you know, he had these moments where it was like, he would get, he had one where he got the offensive rebound. And it wasn't like he tried to go up with it after, after that, which would be like a very classic young player move to make, like, where it's like, hey, I'm the one who got this board. So like, I'm going to, I'm going to use this rep for me. He immediately passed it to Clay for a three. And like, that was a moment where I was like, okay, like he is starting to, and he's had a couple of these.

He made some great passes to Wise Man. And I don't know if that was necessarily something that was like in his bag before this, where he is starting to get indoctrinated into the warrior's way of doing things. Like the whole ball has energy stuff. We've seen some moments now where he's giving up the ball and gotten it back for a dunk. And, like, you know that, you know, Draymond Green is going to find him for these dunks. And, you know, like, Steph and Clay are going to create incredible gravity. And he's going to get these opportunities.

And he is starting to realize that as well. So I don't know if he can necessarily then go and make up for, you know, if we're going to talk about the Dubbs, how this impacts a Dubbs future. I don't know if he can necessarily then go and be, like, the lockdown, like, incredibly communicative defender that Draymond is or be like the passing hub that Drayman is but that is one part where he's starting to figure things out. Yeah, I think the Warriors are a unique case in this in this situation because and to speak to like they're a unique case because, you know, most teams that like work that have an effective

like thing that is working that is if you think about like the top teams in the league, they have stars that you have to contend with and game plan for every single night. And the Warriors still have those guys. You know, they still have, they still have Curry. You know, they obviously, pool has obviously come on. The thing that made their success go is still sort of their, a version of that is. And the question for the Warriors is, in terms of like long term or, you know, any of these other teams, can these young guys transition to the point where they are the thing that has to be game planned for? Because right now, you know, Cominga and Wiseman and Moses Moody, even Pat Baldwin, like those types of.

of guys, like if they are in a situation where they are sort of the counter to like, okay, the first wave has been stopped or like the first thing that causes gravity like Steph and Clay and even pool, like their shooting gravity causes the cutting, which causes like, so what I'm trying to say is that like, Cuminga and Wiseman aren't really necessarily the focal points of the offense and can they transition into becoming those types of players or is Cuminga going to stay in the role where he's a responsive sort of like reverse the ball, make a quick pass or be a cutter, like in that dream on role for pool. I guess I'm just trying to figure out like what would it look like. Is Wiseman going to have to like transition sort of into the Looney role?

Because they're not going to change the way they play, I guess is kind of what I'm getting at. We're not going to see a team where or maybe they will. What do you think? Do you think these guys, that's kind of the question, I guess at the end of the day is do these guys just to a change in identity or are they going to have to kind of stay in the system that the warriors have built? Because Steph is a system. Like, you know, to assume that it can just continue is a little presumptuous. I don't know. That's a really good question that I think a lot of these teams have to sort of reckon with. I think what the Warriors did last year was really smart in that they made Jordan Poole develop in a way where he would, like, where he would serve the purposes of the system.

But they also had an appetite for him taking some excruciatingly bad shots and playing outside of what his role should be in the hopes that it would eventually lead to him, you know, understanding where the line is, understanding what's a good shot for him, getting used to taking some of those like, fuck you, three that we love from Steph and that, you know, then actually allows them to sort of regenerate what Steph gives them in moments when Steph's not in the game. As much as he is a system to himself, like, it is shocking the extent to which when you watch the Warriors and you're not like, if I'm watching the Warriors and I'm kind of like, if I'm in my kitchen and the angle's not great and a three goes up from a little guy, I'm like, is that Jordan Pool or is that Steph Curry? I'm not quite sure. And if the shot goes in, then I'm like, I really don't know, you know. So I think what they did was really smart.

And you got to strike a balance, you know, because, you know, players are still human at the end of the day. And they have, they're coming in with their games. They're probably coming in from situations where they're used to having the ball in their hands a lot. And the NBA for young players is all about adjusting to the reality that that's not necessarily going to be the case for you, especially if you're one of these players that's going to go onto a championship contending team. Right. But at the same time, I think the more space you give a player to be able to explore some of the parts of their game that might be a little bit unruly that might, hey, it might cost you a regular season game or two.

It might not make you as efficient. You know, it's like it could be the type of shots that drive a coach crazy or the type of turnovers or just like a pass with too much English on it. Like all those things are things that you kind of eventually have to suss out of your game. But that's also where development happens. That's also like that's kind of like that beautiful space where, you know, you know, you. you expand your game as well. And I think that's the fact that Steve Kerr had an appetite for that, I think really,

really helped the development of Jordan Pool. And I think it'll probably go on and help the development of the rest of these guys. But also, like the other point, like tactically speaking, you know, when you talk about the Warriors changing their style, I think just like the level of, of gravity that those guys are going to have in the paint. Like the Warriors have always said, the shock we want is a layup. Yeah, like we love the threes, but we want, we want shots. we want dunks, we want layups.

Like, those are the best shots in basketball. So I imagine that things will probably tilt more in that direction. Perhaps, you know, open up the greatest shooter of all time even more and the second greatest shooter of all time even more. You know, like, tactically, I think the answer could actually be easier for those guys. But I would be curious, especially on the Wiseman note, because it's just different for big men. You know, a guy like Jordan Poole, perimeter players,

this guy like Tyler Hero, Trey Young, they are given a lot more rope to do some of the things that we've talked about. Whereas with big men, there's this expectation that they develop. And the timeline for development with big men, as we know. Develop what is the question, right? What do we always expect big men? What is it over and over again? I think this transitions to some of the other guys we would want to maybe talk about a

little bit is what, in your experience, what do you hear people say, I want this from this person, this big guy, or I want this. from that big guy. What is it typically? You know, I think it's such a puzzle for a young big man because that question, like that answers to that question ranges so much. Like DeAndre Aitin is a perfect example of this, you know? I think when he was the number one pick coming out of Arizona,

I think everybody was like, wow, this is like this is like the modern answer to KG, right? Like, this is good. I know, I know, I know, but. Oh, I almost melted like Pennywise. But that's what people were saying. That is actually what people were saying, which is, A, a ridiculous expectation to put on a player. Yeah. But B also makes things confusing because you get into the league and you're like, oh, yeah, okay, I'm going to shoot these threes and, like, I'm going to try to defend all these positions and, like, I'm going to be this like proto perimeter player, big man who is.

Proto perimeter. I like, yeah, I don't know. No, I think you're right. I think you're right. I think when it was coming in, if we see the ink. of those things. Yeah. We assume that they're going to develop that that direction.

And for, for Aiden, it hasn't really necessarily happened. Yeah. Well, you get into, you start talking to your coaching staff. And the coaching staff is like, we want to, we want you to figure out how to set great screens and dive to the rim and hit a bunch of layups and work on your short role game and work on your floater and all this stuff. And it becomes, I think, I imagine it can become confusing for a young big man. And the other thing is reps as well, right?

Like, you can get into a situation. the NBA where there's this expectation where, you know, you do develop, but you might not necessarily get that opportunity because, like, you're working in a framework, especially in a very perimeter oriented league and especially if you're trying to win where you are expected to do more of the dirty work. Yeah. I heard a great quote the other day. I told you about this from Popeye Jones, who's like a developmental coach with the Nuggets, I believe now, but he was talking about like, if you're full-blown developing, that means you're losing in the NBA. So it's like extremely hard to like balance that.

And then you can, and that's compounded. You start from that point of like, okay, if you're, if you're a guard in the NBA and you're trying to develop all the time, we've seen what that looks like. It's messy. It's very messy. And sometimes it's a tolerable messiness. It's nice. You know, we see guys get in there.

But if you're a guard on a good team, it's really hard. And then if you're a big on a good team, it's even harder because possessions, it's a really cruel filter where it's like, okay. And you made a good point there where it's like, if it's, It's a guard. We're like, okay, well, put them in the G League for a little bit. You know, we do the doctor, write the prescription for like 400 picking rolls. There you go. Tear it off.

Go to take it to the G League pharmacy. But if you're a big guy, it's really difficult because where your touch is coming from, what situation are you? And I think a lot of times, it seems like we expect we want them to space. You know, it's like we wanted Jaron Jackson to become less of a hypothetical shooter. We want you to be able to pass quickly whenever you see to those types of things. I was curious, you know, is this a good segue to kind of talk about Miami? Do you think right here? Because I think that one of the other people, you know, Aiton is somebody.

I remember Aiton had a drive in like the finals before we move on to them. He took, I forget who he took off the dribble, but it was like a wing. He took somebody off the dribble and everybody was like, holy shit, did you just see that? And we don't really see those things, but it's like, it's really difficult to develop those things. I've noticed. and like BAM is another example of somebody in the offseason. Pat Riley said that he wanted to up his attempts. You know, this past year we were talking about attempts.

7.3 per game. Riley said he wants him to take 15 per game. For somebody like BAM and that offense, not horribly dissimilar from the way with the Warriors do things where it's like, you know, three point pressure causing cutting and, you know, dribble handoffs and stuff. Where would it even come from for BAM? Where do we expect him to, where could he make an offensive league?

that would help Miami. 15 shots per game, Siritt. Where are those coming from? Bam is a really interesting one because the question for me is, is his lack of attempts an intentional thing from the heat where they want to prioritize perimeter shots, they want to prioritize on the dribble handoff? Is it about getting Bam open for the role?

Or is it about, you know, getting Jimmy or Tyler or Kyle open for a shot or a drive? and I think the way that it's manifested in Miami has been very perimeter oriented, I think also to their demise as well. Like I look at that Boston series. And look, Boston had a lot of good defenders for them. Like Grant Williams is strangely kind of always had his number on defense. Al Horford was great. But at the same time, there were moments where I was like,

this guy is catching the ball and he's not even turning to look at the rim. Is that a directive from the team of like, hey, you're running these dribble handoffs and, you know, taking these short mid-range jumps. jumpers, whereas, you know, when you read features about him or, you know, the same thing with eight and two, it's all about like, yeah, he's expanding his range. He's practicing his three-point shot. He's practicing his mid-range shot. But it's like, when do we actually see that in a game? And when does a player get, like, when do they get opportunities to, to wrap that out and actually try to, like, build their range, which takes time. And it takes, it takes a lot of ugliness, right?

Like, do we have, do we have, like, the appetite for that from big men? And it's a big question for Miami. I think it's a big question from the suns too as well. I think I think in Milwaukee, they, you know, I think a big reason they lost both years is like they, their paint scoring is just like not very consistent and not very strong. And like, I think it's something that you can really take away from them. So once they stop, you know, being able to hit literally the most inefficient shot in basketball, then like they're going to be easy to beat. Despite how well that works in a regular season, right? And I think last year with Aiton, he just had so many injuries that they weren't really able to, you know, just develop him further, even though he did expand his offensive game,

but it just wasn't necessarily enough for the strides that they need to make. And I think that's one thing I'll be looking for from both teams. Like, do we actually get to that 15-shot mark with them? And how does that impact the efficiency of your offense? Does it make, like, how does that actually make it more versatile? Yeah. And which is something I think the Warriors probably done a better job of. And, you know, with the heat, that is kind of the question for me.

because this is a tricky thing about the two timelines. Miami is aging at a rate, which I'm not sure that they can replace the productivity of Butler, the productivity of Kyle Lowry with Bam and Hero unless they make a commitment to actually give those guys the keys, and then those guys prove that they are worth that commitment. And that's kind of what Riley was talking about in the offseason, and was just, you know, he wants more two-way consistency, he wants more consistency from adibio, and he wanted more two-way consistency from Hero.

You do need to earn it. Something else I was thinking about, too, is Bam and Aiton do have something in common, and this is just me as a people watcher, kind of observer from a distance here, is they're both pretty, like, meek personalities. I guess your level of kind of primacy on your team and, like, your level of, like,

centrality to what they do, kind of, like, because we've seen towns grow offensively, Like I pointed out a stat to you about how much he's like his driving game has increased in the past five seasons. It's like went from four drives per game in his rookie year to 11 this year. The balls in your hands you can kind of justify. Bam is sort of the end point of the Miami offense a lot of times because they run the similar kind of split cut thing that like the jazz ran in the 90s and the Warriors run where you know you go to the elbow and then the shooters cut and things like that. A lot of Bam's shots come from, okay, the progressions have gone all the way through. maybe it's late in the shot clock.

I have like a shot from the elbow, but it's kind of like, I've wondered A, if BAM has driven enough, you know, on that, so you were making the point that he, like, doesn't even look at the basket a lot of the times because he's also playing on a team

with like really strong, tough kind of personalities. You know, I've noticed there's kind of a parallel there too. I just don't, I'm kind of wondering where he has shown enough efficiency to justify taking, doubling his shots.

And I'm just not sure where those are going to come from. Maybe either pick and roll or pick and pop or I don't know. I think the hope is that if you do double his shots, that the efficiency would come with him getting more comfortable with taking those shots. So you're assuming the numbers aren't really telling us the story. It's more that like his comfort level will go up if they do increase. You assume? I think you hope.

That's where this is hard, right? Like I think that's why it's again, like just impressive that the warriors were just like willing to let pool do some of the things that he did because it's always a question. You don't know until you actually let the player figure it out for themselves and you have to be patient and you have to kind of make room for it. And like you have to allow for the idea that it could be wrong. I think I think Towns is actually like the perfect counter example here. Right. Like he played on a really bad team for a number of years and just got to take whatever shot he wanted. And also was a guy that's like, yeah, I got my 20 and 10, right? And I think like that's kind of, that's the attitude that I think that the heat,

and Sun's coaching staff have also tried to cultivate Aiton and BAM to not have, like to count their screens more than they count their points and to be okay with the times that they roll and don't get the ball back and to be okay with the fact that like their impact is going to be far greater than what the stat sheet shows because they're going to be able to do things on defense that towns can't do and like you need to trade for Rudy Gobert because of how much towns can't do those things, right? Like, it's, it's, it's interesting because, I mean, Towns also, like, Townsend gets rewarded with, with a Supermax contract.

And we're asking, we're still asking these questions about, you know, like, Aiton, he got a pretty pretty similar contract to, to what Bam got. And, you know, numbers wise, it's still, I mean, all those guys got paid, you know. So it's not, it's no tragedy. But you kind of, you start to see how this league works, um, especially when it comes to big men. And it's just, it, then it just doesn't necessarily surprise you that much when. and they don't want to do the things that they're asked to do.

I think, like, offensive primacy is, like, something that maybe it's a little unreasonable for us to expect for guys that come into the league that don't. I'm just trying to think back, and I'm thinking about this totally on the fly. So if I forget anybody and on Twitter, if you hit me up, I may forget some. But I'm just thinking about guys usually demonstrate those types of ball skills ahead of time. You know, Yokic, if you go back and watch him with, like, Mega BMAX, he was, like, handling the ball and bringing it up. and stuff like that. You know, Embed showed things like that.

I'm just trying to think of the big guys who are central, you know, Janice handled the ball a whole lot. Maybe it is unreal. And you talk about the difference between contracts there. Towns showed a whole lot of that stuff before college and after college. Maybe it's just the case that like Aitin and Bam are just like really good sub all star players that are valuable.

You know, like the threshold of, we talk about like all star as if it's like this binary of like if you're on one side of it, you're great. if you're on the other side of it. Tremendous disrespect. Wow. You know,

it's just like, no, man. Like there are so, so, so, like All Star means it's so hard to make it. We have so many players that are valuable.

And you think about like a guy like towns, you got rewarded because he has those skill sets that maybe it is unrealistic for us to like expect a bam to become. You know, it's, it's really unreasonable for us to expect this type of creature to evolve into this type of creature. I don't know. Yeah. I think that's actually probably a special.

especially the case with Bam. I think like with, with Aiton and in junior high, high school was like, you know, pretty much as early as he started playing basketball. It was like, oh,

wow, this guy can handle the ball. Like, and he's got incredible touch. And you're kind of just like, okay, there's a lot of potential here. Um,

with Bam, though, like, Bam was, he definitely handled the ball, but, you know, bam was compared to Dwight Howard.

Yeah. Like, I, I think, I think that his is much more like, they have tried to find a way to make him into a modern big man. That's a good point. You mentioned Popeye Jones in Denver, and I think that that's another team where it's going to be really interesting.

Now, obviously with Michael Porter Jr., health is the biggest thing, but he is a player who, yes, was drafted at 14th, but was also a guy that, you know, could have easily been the number one pick in the draft if he had actually been healthy. Like, he has that level of talent. But now is on this team where he's going to be asked to kind of try to play this Clay Thompson's role of you're going to spot up. and yeah, we're going to get some opportunities, but like that is going to be based around Yokic at the end of the day. And he's another guy where you watch him sometimes and it's like, okay, he's, he's, he's into it. You know, like he's, he's playing around Yokic, he's spotting up.

He is cutting and he's incredibly long and talented and he just fits really well in that system, but it can really work. And then there are other times where it's like, who, that was a bad shot. Oh, Michael Mullen's not going to like that shot, you know? So that's another one. be monitoring. Yeah, Porter, I think, lives in that space. You talked about, you talked about Jordan Pool. And I think that, like, Porter is, is one of those guys that you kind of have to live in that, in those margins of a little out of control, because his audacity is sort of one of his big weapons.

And there are a lot of those guys like that out there. It's just like Porter's fearlessness, I hope he never loses it, honestly, like, you know, because it can once it's, I don't know, Once you lose that, it's hard to go back. But if you think about the guys in the NBA that are ultra confident, they kind of tend to stay that way. Porter is one of those guys that, like you said, incredible catch and shoot player. I think the Clay thing is an interesting thing. But I think his audacity is one of the biggest weapons that he has, honestly.

Yeah, that's a really good point. And, you know, I think the more that you nurture that within him, like, it just like, it just makes the Denver offense that much better. And I think you can also use these things as well. as a motivator of like, hey, if you want to get on the floor and get these shots, then you're also going to have to learn our defensive system as well. You're going to have to rotate and you're going to have to like just like be much more active on that end, which is another thing that I think like, you know, there are limitations with him,

but that he's also kind of, it seems like he's done or is trying to do. Porter's shooting numbers are pretty wild. On catch and shoot threes last year, 45.1 percent on unguarded, catch and shoot threes he was 55.2% from three. For a guy that tall, that is put your brain in a blender level efficiency. So, I mean, he just really has to be. Yeah, he is, he is a money shot maker.

And really can't give a tough shot. No, you can't really super, because he elevates too. And he has it, shoots that over the head release point. Yeah. Guess who he trains a, guess who he shares a trainer was? Oh, Steph. Yeah, brain of pain, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Was there anything else on Bones? Do you think Bones just needs to come in? Or is that, is there any other guy on the Nuggets there? You think it's pretty much MPJ and then Bones is sort of the icing on the nugget. I mean, Bones is like, I really like the rule that they've put him in right now where he's like, he's a point guard, but Ishm is also on the floor. So Bones can just focus on being like this just destructive sort of like, I'm going to keep driving to the rim over and over again. And like, I'm just going to wear you out and talk shit and flex and all that fun stuff. you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same kind of thing. Denver's in a fun situation where they can let those fires rage within, within reason and let them be wild.

Whereas it's not going to be too much, you know. And they're also a small market. So like when things happen there, it just doesn't matter as much either. Like you can kind of, they can work through the wrinkles in a way that, you know, some of these other teams that's a little bit harder for.

It's a chill place like we said last week. Yeah. Super chill. Is there again, which game are you most excited about for tonight? Did you have a matchup that you're like you got the popcorn popping? Yeah, Sixers, Sixers Celtics. That's going to be the one for me.

How about you? Yeah, I'd say so. I think I'm really curious about the Sixers. We did a survey on the ringer about like an NBA entrance survey. And there's a lot of confidence that I've seen throughout the NBA media landscape and James Hardin. And I don't really know why that's happening. This is like Charlie Brown kicking the football territory for me. I don't really know why people are assuming that this year's different.

Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll see. I mean, I guess he does look like he's in better shape, right? It's muscle watch, baby. I think that's a big of reason. I also think that, like, kind of going back to the maxi point, if James Hardin doesn't have to be like your top score and you're going to rely on him all the time, maybe that's the reasoning.

But I also, I'm kind of with you. I don't understand all this optimism about Philly. They're really talented. I really like their off season. I'm super high on Maxi. Embed is Embed, but I need to see it. And it's like not even. the regular season.

They can be the number one seed. I still like, I need to see it in the finals, you know? Like I don't think that I will believe the Sixers can win a championship until they actually win a championship. So I'm with you. The clock, yeah,

so like five seconds left, you'll still be sitting there, you know, stroking your mustache. Yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, we're going to,

we do need to see it. And Harden, that's going to be a long, a long game conversation with him. So, but I'm kind of, I'm kind of with you. I'd love to see it,

you know, when you watch old footage of Harden. incredible to watch him run around and run off the ball. But anyway, we'll see. Excited for the season. Very excited. Me too. Me too.

Thank you, Kyle. Thank you, producer Chris. I'm really excited to talk to you after we, you know, some of these games start and we actually have some stuff to talk about. Basketball is back, baby. Krav Maga. I wanted to say that right before we go. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

It's not Krav Maga. Sorry, everyone, please. We're Krav Maga. Please listen to the whole show. You won't come for me for that one. about it.