The Ringer NBA Show - How Do You Watch Defense? | The Answer

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

Chris is joined by ‘Real Ones’ cohost Raja Bell to discuss the impossibility of guarding the Brooklyn Nets as well as the Nets' defensive ability and what winning a championship with their caliber of defense would mean to NBA history. Later, Chris is joined by cohost of ‘The Mismatch’ and ‘Ringer NBA University’ Kevin O’Connor to figure out how to watch for good defense and more (21:00). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Raja Bell and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I am Chris Ryan and on today's episode, defense, defense. Hey, everybody, thanks for listening to another episode of The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan. Today's guests are Roger Bell and Kevin O'Connor. And we're talking about one thing.

The one thing that I couldn't get out of my mind watching hoops this week was defense. I think it was a huge factor in my appreciation for one of the games of the year, which was Clippers Nets, which is a game I think. talked about with Raja a lot in the upcoming episode because I was fascinated by the fleeting moments that the Nets played defense, hard defense against the Clippers, and really made life tough for Paul George and Kauai Leonard. And I was also fascinated by how the Clippers tried and nobly failed ultimately at defending the Nets. And defense is something that like, look, I've been watching basketball for most of my life and I still don't know that I can necessarily explain it to anyone.

I don't know that I understand or appreciate it. And it's been kind of like this thing. that I really wanted out of this season was to develop a little bit more of an understanding about what's happening on that side of the ball. I can say form a fucking wall, like Stan Van Gundy, I can scream ice, like Tom Zibodeau, but I don't necessarily that I appreciate

it the way I should. You watch a Rams game, you can find Aaron Donald on the field, and you can decide, you can say, like, that guy did something game changing in this play. He bursted through an offensive line. He made sure the run didn't go anywhere.

on defense is a little harder. You get these fleeting moments where you see a steal, you see a guy jump a lane, you see a guy pick pocket, you see a guy come off ball and do a weak side block and it's sick. But the little things that have to happen

on any defensive possession to stop another team from scoring are almost impossible to observe the first time through. So it was only really rewatching that Nets Clippers game and then really thinking about what my eye is seeing, where my eye wants to go ball watching,

and just wanting to get a better understanding, of what's going on with defense. So this episode is essentially everything you wanted to know about defense, but we're afraid to ask. Let's get into my conversation with Roger Bell. All right, now I'm joined by Roger Bell, ex-NBA player.

Now NBA Pundit, and he's on our real one show on the Ringer NBA show on Mondays and Mondays. It's an awesome podcast, him and Logan Murdoch, so check that out. Roger, what's up? Thanks for joining me, man. Chilling, man.

Thanks for having me. So I'm still stuck on this Nets, this Nets Clippers game from earlier in the week. I rewatched a big chunk of it last night, and as I'm watching it, I wanted to talk to you about what does effectively defending the Nets even look like?

Yeah. Have you started to try to wrap your head around that? Like when you watch these guys? I have, and it's really, it's really, really tough. Like, I don't even know how you would, as a coach, start to really dissect how to game plan for them

because so little of what they're doing is structured. You know, I think when they first came together, Steve had them run into some really quick action where, you know, James would come up get off the ball strong side. You know, ball would get reversed. He'd wind up on the opposite side.

You'd get some sort of DHO on the opposite side. And that you can kind of game plan for because there's some real predictable movements in that. But now it's kind of just really free form. These guys are coming down. There may be a pick and roll. There may not be. And it's really mono-imano.

I mean, so schematically, I don't know what you really do to defend them. I noticed that too. Like, watching that Clippers game, I think I made a note that was like, this is the highest form of pickup basketball I've ever seen. Because it felt like some of the offense felt like all-star gamey, you know, like where they were just like, oh, and this guy's over here. And I'm just going to like, this past, no one else can see to a guy who can make a shot,

no one else can make. Yeah. And right. And you're doing like it's the highest form of pickup with three of the best players. Like, right? Like, you know what I mean? Like the highest form would be NBA pickup. And then you're putting the best of the best NBA offensive players on a team.

it becomes really, really difficult because, I mean, I can sit here and tell you, like, you know, I never let Kyrie come off of a pick and roll and switch a theoretically lesser defender on him and let him just have him one-on-one. But to take that away, I have to commit resources that are allocated in other places defensively. And on some teams, the ball finds a guy who's not capable of carrying his own weight offensively. That's not the, there are multiple guys on this team that are going to kill you.

So, like, lessening the strength of your defense to stop Kyrie is just making it even more of an issue for Kevin Durant offensively. You know what I mean? Like, you're putting out fires to create bigger fires with your defense. I think you always used to hear that chest note where it's like, we're just, these guys are going to get theirs. We're just not going to let X, Y, and Z role player beat us. Right. Like, so that maybe these two dudes get 60 or 50, but we're not going to let like these other guys get us. And then when you just look around,

it's like Joe Harris is probably going to hit an open shot. So there's really nowhere you can leave to put out those fires. There's very little you can do with them on the defensive end. Other than I would imagine you're just going to commit to switching it. Because again, if you're going to allocate those two players, you're playing four on three behind it. And you have two of the best players on the planet, no matter who is in that pick and roll, right?

Like you're leaving James Hardin and Kevin Durant, or you're leaving Kevin Durant and Kyrie, or you're leaving Kyrie and James Harden. It's just you don't want to eat any of those guys playing four on three with capable shooters like Joe Harris as the other player and maybe Jeff Green. So I imagine you switch and you try to keep the ball in front of you. You try to keep them off the foul line, but they're so gifted.

I actually think, like, as I really thought about it, these aren't great answers because there isn't one. But I think you might try to hurt their defense with your offense. Do you know what I mean? Interesting. You just want to punish them if you can. You know, like you have to start getting into their legs. and nobody's got the personnel to do this,

and no one plays like this anymore, but you really want to try to grind them out, right? And I always found it fascinating that some people's answers to playing against us as the sons in 06 and 07 was to outrun us. We're the best at it. You're not going to do that. You're not beating us.

You can buy into it that's right up our alley, but you're not going to beat us like that. The teams that had success were committed to running selectively, like not just getting into like a free-flowing, to your point, highest level of pickup game and really executing some sets, making us play defense, and trying to get into our legs, and then trying to really beat us up on the offensive glass. And that's where they are kind of susceptible, as if you're not allowing them to get out.

You're going to make them stay anchored into the pain and box out, even though that's like a lost art form. Yeah, I saw Lou Williams grab an offensive rebound over Durant and like a couple other guys. And it's like, that's not something that they're thinking about. The legs thing is really interesting because I think people, I sometimes think, of offensive defense and defense as discreet actions like in a football game but it's in fact like the same guys are playing out there so if you can get hardened or duran in the post and just maybe like have to have like five more possessions per game where that guy is getting physical contact and it's like oh god i got to do this again or whatever like i would imagine that would make a big difference for

if you're playing defense there's only i think only the warriors from 17 or whatever really comparable to the nets right now but if you're playing defense against a team, I imagine it's a lot like the American dream. It's like you think if you work hard and do the right things, success will come eventually. And this really undoes any ideas you would have about the American dream because the shot making is on such another level. Like there were so many times when I was watching this,

that Clippers game where I was like, Kyrie just did a spin move step back three-pointer. Like you could literally be sewn into his jersey. It wouldn't have mattered. Look, I would argue that that that play he shook free for a split second. a lot of those shots were well defended. And I found myself, my wife was sitting next to me, like, she went watching the game.

She was watching her phone. But I said to her, I was like, hey, Cindy, look at this real quick. And I rewind, I was like, look at that. And even she was like, Jesus. And I was like, yeah, that's. And there's nothing that I can do about that. There's nothing.

Like, there were times with Kobe and, you know, with greats offensively, you know, Mello and LeBron. And I'd even throw Manu and Ray Allen in the mix. Like, where they did things, certainly Alan Iverson, where it didn't matter what you did, good O beats good D. And you'll hear that like an NBA like pickup games and stuff. It beats it all the time.

Like there's nothing more that I can do. You're just a shot maker. And I round up saying to my wife, like, because a lot of guys try to teach that. A lot of these guys working with kids out here or tell you they can teach you though. You can't teach that shit. You can't teach that.

That is, you know, a one of one type of shot making ability, you know? And unfortunately for everybody else, it's one of three because the three of them might be able. to do it, right? Right. How does it change, how does it change, like, the tenor of a team when you're playing a team like that, to the extent there have been teams like that, does everybody's sort of expectations about what their defensive responsibilities change?

Like, are you, is there, it's because you must have like a different grading scale if you're defending a guy like Durant or Kyrie or Hardin versus like if you're just taking on a guy who averages like 12, 11 points a game and you're trying not to let him beat you. Like, when you go back to the bench and Kyrie does something like that, is everybody just like, what are you going to do? do? Or is there, is there like somebody trying to sketch out like, well, you can do this, try that, do this? No, I think you come in with, you know, the advanced scouts now and with all of the access you have to player breakdowns, you're going to get that information pregame.

But regular season, probably not so much because it's moving so fast that you can't really deep dive every team because you're onto the next, like the next night literally. So can't really deep dive a guy. You don't have the time to do that. You're going to get a brief, you know, scouting report on what someone likes to do. But I think most coaches understand, at least the good ones, that there isn't anything you can do with that. Now, you're going to try your best, and we want to be principled in whatever our strategy or our game plan is.

And if you're not doing that, then someone should have some feedback for you, right? Like, look, you missed this assignment. Like, you were supposed to roll over, you know, and catch you at the rim. And those assignments can be missed. But just pure, hey, man, I need you to stop that guy. it's a lonely feeling sometimes and coaches understand like no one can.

Larry Brown said to me once I hadn't played much. We were playing Orlando Magic was probably 2002 noon game and he comes up to me and he says, hey,

I'm gonna need you to guard TMAC and I was like, okay, I mean, never mind, he's like four inches taller than me and I haven't played in like three months, but that's fine. And he starts going into his breakdown of like, hey, all right,

here's what you? And he said, you know what? nobody could guard him anyway, so just do your best. And I was like, yeah, that's about right. I'm just going to do my best. Larry Brown defensive guru, who's just like, just do your best. Of these guys, of these three dudes,

who would you most like a shot at defending and who would you least like a shot at defending? Oh, it's an impossible question there. I guess that, like, for me, Kevin Durant might be, I think I might have the most success against Kevin Durant. and I would not have success against Kevin Duran. I'm just saying, like, watching them play because he's not, the shiftyness is what I had a problem with.

Like, the way that Kyrie and James Hardin are always kind of toying with you, making you wonder when you're going to go and when you're not going to go. You can't really get closer enough to them to really, you know, touch. I think because of Katie's length, it would be like, I'd have more success because I could get closer, but then again, he'd shoot over me, so it wouldn't really matter. But I think I'd have more success maybe that's gonna, that's gonna come off so bad

if that's a viral clip. It's gonna come off so bad. But it's just, I don't know. I don't know who you would think. I promise I won't do that to you. I don't know who you'd be. Who would you least what? Yeah, Kyrie.

I don't want any parts of Kyrie. I don't want any part of that. Because it's just like you're on skates. Yeah, it's gonna make you look stupid. Let's flip it a little bit now. So we've talked about how hard it would be to defend these guys. Everything that I know about basketball

tells me that like, even if you are in, Even if you don't have a top five ranked or even top eight, nine ranked defense, most of the teams that have won championships or even gone to the finals in the years past have at least come from a team that was rooted in a top five defense. Maybe they have let their regular season defense slide a little bit and there's some switch flipping going, but they at least have the fundamentals to do that. I do not see the nets ever approaching that.

Will this test this idea that defense wins championships or that defense is the like passport you need to even get that deep into the playoffs. Absolutely. This is going to be, this will be a complete, if they're able to do that with what is it, the 24th, 25th,

last time I looked, it was like 25th ranked defense in the league. If they're able to get to the finals and win a finals, it's going to fly in the face of everything everyone's ever preached. Because, I mean, you can go back and look at that. Most teams that are winning finals are top five in one or the other,

offense or defense, and 100% with like tried and true without fail, top 10 in the other. And so you're talking about a balanced basketball team. This is just the opposite. This is completely on one end of the spectrum offensively. And we've said on the other end of the spectrum, we're good. We're just going to outscore you.

So, yeah, if they should get there off of pure offensive brilliance, it will. It will definitely test that. Now, here's the deal. I actually saw the other night that Clippers game you were talking about. They defended. Like they did. There were multiple possessions where I saw Kyrie engaged. I saw James Hardin engaged making multiple.

Do you give Kauai some problems? Even problems. Like multiple efforts is what I'm looking for. So like not just on the ball or in the gap or, but like when that breaks down, or we make an another effort to get back into play and contain a guy on a close out. Like they, those are seeds of solid defense. The question is whether they can like build on it and sustain it. In the same way that the three of them are an unsolvable problem on offense is having the

three of them out there an unsolvable problem on defense because it really doesn't matter if they try to trade Joe Harris for like a defensive, a hard-nosed defensive wing who can take the best player on the other team every time down the court? Because like, that's still not going to solve enough problems deep into the playoffs. Like, would you agree with that? Or do you think that they are a player or two away from being a really, at least a serviceable defense? I watched them. And in fairness to them, because I've been real critical of their defense, that particular game, I thought they were really solid defensively. Like the clippers are no slouch. We've got Kyrie and Paul George and, you know, guys that are making plays. And I thought

they were pretty good. The question is whether that's sustainable and whether guys are going to buy into doing that night in and night out or that's just going to be like a big game thing. So I've been on record as saying, I think with two of those guys, just two of them, the brilliance of their offense, if you surrounded them with really complimentary three and D type of players, bigs and wings, you'd be fine. But if you're telling me you're going to keep those three and and you can flip another one of your pieces to get some complimentary three and d type of pieces i think that gives you a better chance now joe harris is not a bad defender like he's he's serviceable i don't think his calling card's ever going to be his d but he's not the problem

defensively i do think that when push comes to shove and you have to get stops that's not something that's easily turned on and off that's something that you you build up to now lebron was the one player that I've been around who's able to flip the switch. I watched him do it. I watched the Cleveland team that I was in the front office with do it up close and personal. But it wasn't a flip of a switch in a single game. He flipped the switch when the playoffs started. So by the time you got to like the Eastern Conference Finals and the Golden State Series, even though we were under man, they had been like building up to this crescendo. You don't just flip that in a game or in a series. You have to, that's got to be like your, in your DNA to the point you made earlier.

Did those Cleveland teams also have like a defensive system that like just needed the energy put into it? Like was it a matter of effort or was it a matter of like developing like how they were going to defend? Because I'm curious like one of the one of the things I saw kind of falling apart with Brooklyn and you know, to be fair, like they, I thought they, they played really well in that game on and at times on both sides of the court. But there were a lot of miscommunications and there was a lot of times where I was like, I don't actually know of Hardin and Kyrie know what the other person is supposed to be doing in this situation. Well, it's like anything.

If you never, so in Cleveland, I watch Ty Loo, David Blatt, go over assignments, like, almost, you know, in a shell capacity where you're just walking through the movements of your defensive assignments over and over again to script it. Now, it's not at full speed, but this is just the dance that we're going to do. So your muscle memory kicks in and you know when you double down on the post because at the time there were still post players. Like when you double down on the post, this is where you're going to get spit out on the opposite side because you've done it a thousand times. So you know where to go. You don't have to think about that, which causes confusion and then it's too late to get to the shot.

But what happens, what has to happen after that is you have to take that scripted stuff and you have to put it in a full speed, full commitment, full energy practice. And that comes in the games because you can't simulate games and practice. So that's why I say it's hard to flip the script. And what you saw with Kyrie, what you're saying to me, not really seeing it with my own eye, but it speaks to guys that normally aren't as engaged defensively. And so when they try to be super engaged defensively, they fry out from time to time, right? They get it right sometimes. And then other times they fry out because, like, you just haven't had that commitment to, like,

playing that side of the ball as consistently as you need to. They can. And I would imagine they'd be really serviceable defensively. but they have to really make a commitment to that. Yeah. I was curious on a macro level, you know, we've seen,

we've experienced basically a complete, like a revolution of the game in the last like seven years, say, where, you know, it's not weird to watch the Nets, NC, Joe Harris, Jeff Green, Durant, Kyrie,

and Hardin out there as a lineup, which, you know, as we've been referring to like, these past teams, you're just like, that would be completely foreign to somebody watching basketball in 2002. Do you think that NBA defenses have caught up

with the tactical revolution of their offenses? Or are we kind of like in a college football spread offense? And like there's only so much a defense can do to stop what's happening here. Yeah, that's exactly where we are. I mean, I think the answer that most guys had, at least I saw it early with the analytics, like with the pick and roll coverage, right? Like when we came up, pick and roll coverage for most of those guys, was to get out and there was a hard hedge.

You know what I mean? And then, you know, you were supposed to get over and then get under. and then the big would, you know, low big would touch the rolling big until his big could get back where you'd switch, you know, you'd just pick up the big rolling high. So analytically, they said, hey, that's not, we want these guys to shoot two. So let's drop the big, right? And then we'll, and what we called cover the turn.

So I'm going to get over the screen as the on-ball defender. You're going to keep dropping back as a big, and we're going to force the offensive player into this little space around the three-point line. That's Tibbs, right? Like, is that kind of the TIBS idea? Yeah, we're going to get you to shoot this mid-range, too, which most people don't want to do, right?

So defensively, I started seeing it trying to catch up. And then switching became like, we're going to switch everything. What's the new answer to some of this? We're just going to switch it all, right? But offense is way ahead of defense. It's just way ahead of it. Like, there's nothing, you asked me the question. That's why I'm on today.

Like, what are you can do with Brooklyn? There's no answer for that. Like, when guys are that gifted with the ball and they're not going to put you in predictable actions that you can game plan for, and you're just saying, hey, man, you got to be good enough to guard that guy. Well, the rules are what they are where you're not going to be able to really get up and touch a guy. And, you know, we used to be able to, I don't mean to sound like an old commodget.

I'm not complaining about it, but it gave you an opportunity to kind of be physical with a guy at times. Yeah. That's stripped away too. So offense is going to be almost impossible to guard if it's just the best players on the ball in space. And yeah, and also, like, occupying like the four corners of a court where you can't really ever like bunched together. I fear that the fact that you've just told me that there is no answer for this question ruins this podcast, the answer

on the Ringer NBA show, Pete. Roger, thank you so much for joining me today, man. I feel like I learned a lot. Thanks for having me. Take care. All right, now I'm joined by Kevin O'Connor, my defensive coordinator. What's going on, Kevin? How are you doing?

I'm doing great, Chris. How about you? Good. You can hear Kevin, obviously, on the mismatch, and you can also hear him on the newest Ringer MBA show. We have Ringer MBA University, which is a really, really awesome show with Kev, Charks, and Kyle Mann and sometimes special guests, and they discuss prospects coming into the league, prospects who were in their first couple of years in the league. And Kevin, the reason why I wanted to have you on today is I wanted to talk a little bit about defense. But rather than talking about like any particular player and how they're doing or how they're playing defense,

I wanted to ask you first, how do you watch defense? Because this is something that I have been kind of grappling with this season. And I had made it a personal project that I was going to try and pay more attention to that side of the ball. Now, it gets pretty distracting when you're watching the Nets and you find yourself just being dazzled. But I made a commitment to myself to defense. I wanted to get better at watching it. And I quickly realized I have no idea how to do this. So can you help me?

Can you be my shirt? I'll try, Chris, but I do think there's a good reason why a lot of coaches after games say, I haven't watched the film yet. Got to watch the film. Because it's hard to watch defense. So that's a good place to start. I think when most people are watching basketball, they're watching the ball. Now, especially in 2021, most people are looking at their phone,

then they're also looking at maybe how much more time this food has to be on the stove, and then they're also watching the game, and then they run out of the room and that commercial comes on for the 45th time that night. But I'm trying to train my eye to get off the ball a little bit, both to watch movement on offense, but to also see what kind of awareness people seem to have on defense. For you, are you able to process defensive performance in real time? Or is it something like coaches you have to go back and watch tape on? It depends on if I'm focusing on it.

I mean, I find that, you know, when it comes to watching a game, with defense, it's usually something that you've got to go back and watch again, especially if it's a live game you're trying to, you know, be, you know, an NBA Twitter about and have a conversation about. You're not watching like, you know, Julius Randall's offball help defense. You know, you're not necessarily keeping your eye on. him and I feel like a lot of defense, at least for me, a lot of it is that, you know, conscious focus on a particular player and spotlighting them essentially, keeping your eyes on them.

And that way you know, okay, what is this action that they have to react to? Is there, is their man about to run through, you know, a pin down screen and how do they react to that? Oh, there's a pick and roll at the top of the key. What is it a responsibility in this situation? And, you know, there's certain instances where watching and within the flow of game, it's easy to see, oh, that guy made a mistake. But, you know, there was a play that, you know, I detailed in my Mavericks article earlier this week on the Ringer. And it was, you know,

about the Mavs and how Luca made this kickout pass, Adorian Finney Smith, and he missed it. It was a wide open look. And, you know, if I had watched that game live, it's a type of thing where Devin Booker was in a help defense position. And Devin Booker, his responsibility is come down and help on the Loco drive. And he's, he was a beast. feet late getting back to Dorian Finney Smith to contest the three. And you watched the play live, it's like, oh, Booker was a little late. But

then you watch it again, you see, oh my, Luca just faked him out. It was an unbelievable play that caused that. Luca kept his eyes on the rim. The way he went up into his motion for a layup, it looked like he was about to go for a layup. So naturally, Booker would be there ready to, you know, be in his way

and disturb him and said it was an accurate kickout to Dorian Finney Smith, which he missed. But point being is that sometimes with defense, you get to slow things down or watch it again to really see what the player was processing in those microseconds as the game's happening at full speed.

Right. There are guys like Matisse Thibel who make highlight-worthy defensive plays, but then there's the 99% of other defense, which is really, when you're watching it, I feel like you're really just assigning blame. You're trying to figure out what

went wrong. And I talked to Raja a little bit about this in regards to the net. where it does feel like shot making in the league right now is at this near, like, Hendricks level kind of creativity. That it's hard to really be how, you know, you don't want to blame guys for being like, you played that pretty right. And this guy still made a fadeaway jumper off his left foot falling away.

You know, like, what are you going to do to stop that? For you, when you're watching defense, is it about like, how do you grade people and grade their level of responsibility for that final thing that results in a bucket. I mean, I think you nailed it, Chris. We're at like a Hendricks level in terms of shock creation ability.

Like that Nets game. Admittedly, that was KOCB. I was just like throwing that out there on the water for you. I had a Hendricks night last night. I haven't had one in a while where I just listened to like an hour and a half straight of live Hendricks. And it was like watching that fourth quarter of Katie, Kyrie, and Hardin just taking turns.

you know, they're just doing something brilliant on the court. And a lot of the times with defense, like, there's only so much you can do that you can't do anything about those level of players unless you send a double or triple team at them. And then that causes a whole other set of issues for the defense. So, you know, when it comes to like a signing blame or credit, so much of it is circumstantial, so much of it, it depends on situation. And what, what is it? What is the offense trying to do? And also, I think, you know, for me, like the easiest thing to see is effort. that's the easiest thing also for a player to control as well.

And I feel like oftentimes for defense, and this is true in the NBA, it's definitely true in the NFL, where it's hard to always know scheme and situation. NBA teams are more consistent with what they do. But if a player makes a mistake, it might not be a mistake with what he was told to do in the meeting with his coaches,

you know, hours before the game or the day before the game. And like, that's really, and the coach is not the player. So it's very difficult with defense. And this is true with stats. I think it speaks to the limitations of defensive data that we have. I talk to people in the league and they have all the second spectrum tracking data, camera numbers, the raw data, and they're able to create their own numbers from it.

But even then they have a hard time finding deep, meaningful defensive insights. And so I think a lot of it comes down to a deep understanding of knowing what the coaches want from the player, which we don't always know, and then how the player executes that in the moment. But ultimately, when it comes down to blame or credit, effort is number one in terms of, like, that's what empowers and activates,

you know, everything else is if you're putting an effort in focus. So when you look at some of the best defenses in the league right now by defensive rating, there's a team with Anthony Davis, there's a team with Joelle and B, there's a team with Rudy Gober. They seem to have figured something out,

which is having an elite big, an elite defensive big on your team helps. Then there are guys, there are teams like Houston and Memphis, who I think are examples of what you're talking about in terms of effort, right? Like, I don't really understand how Houston can go from being,

I think they had their moments defensively at various points under Dantone, but this turnaround that they've had since they kind of righted the ship and got guys back from COVID and various other injuries in Houston And Stephen Salas was like the offense guy in Dallas, I thought. But they have instilled obviously a defensive intensity among this group

that is essentially powering them to 500 and likely beyond, right? It's all built on that. And I think that's exemplified most on their team. You know, we know the PJ Tucker's. We know that name. We know John Wall and a Victorola Depot. But I got like J. Sean Tate, who a year ago is playing for the Sydney Kings, an undrafted player.

And the effort he puts in, is a guy playing like he has something to prove. He is fighting to stay in the NBA and prove himself and get a long-term contract that changes the rest of his life and his family's life. Everybody on that team is playing with that same attitude that Jayshan Tate, the guy who was in Australia last year, is playing with now. And I think it's that level of buy-in and camaraderie that players have with each other that all feeds into that effort. And with Houston, we'll see if they can sustain this. But I do think it is. noteworthy, though.

They were a top 10 defense before the Hardin trade, even during all the drama. They still had a good defense. It's just they've leveled it up even more with now this connectedness without the drama and everything that they're dealing with. And, you know, I think a lot of that just comes down from just a will. It's a will to do it. We've seen these guys, we've seen Eric Gordon have some poor stretches on defense in the past, but this season he's locking in.

And that's because of his own choice to put in that level of effort. do you think this kind of is a ringer NBA university question do you think inside of every player there is a good defender waiting to be discovered that's a good question is it something that you can coach and teach or is it something that is I guess this is a nature versus nurture question are there guys obviously like Thibel to me plays defense the way you know Jason Kidd can pass like Thibel can obviously kind of see

Rondo obviously when he is engaged essentially knows what an offense is going to do before they're going to do it. And we've talked before about like you can hear Rondo calling out plays from the sideline, like when Rondo is at his best. But like, can you can, why is, why can no one seemingly who wears a Minnesota Timberwolves uniform play good defense? I think it's, I think it's both. I mean, it's probably, you know, a cop-out answer there, but it's really truly in life

and in sports, nature and nurture. And it's, you know, you can be the highest effort player. but there could be two guys in the lineup that aren't focusing or didn't have who didn't pay attention in that film session and and pick up the little cue where they tell you that ex player goes left 70% of the time be ready for that in this certain situation it's about preparation it's about effort it's about focus and it's about your ability your natural innate ability to read and process information that's happening at lightning quick speed on the court and which is why think, you know, we talk about on offense, adjusting to the speed of the game, point guards changing pace and pick and roll situations to get into the lane and create space for themselves. We talk about it with physicality, scoring around the rim when it comes to, you know, facing a Rudy Gobert or an AD as he talked about earlier with them having top defenses. But it's also true on defense, too, with like DeAndre Aiton.

That was the number one concern for him coming out of Arizona. As the number one pick, it's like, well, can he survive on defense? He's slow to read the floor. He's not necessarily a guy that's, you know, picking up the intensity level of his teammates. And with him, it's been so interesting because he still has those spurts, you know, on the court where he does fade.

But he's gotten way, way, way better at raising the level of his teammates and focusing and staying engaged and hustling. And is that him being in the right situation with Monty Williams and Phoenix and having the right supporting cast? Is it Chris Paul? Is it Chris Paul?

Yeah, lighting a fire on him. Is it Mikhail Bridges being an incredible wing defender and making his life a little bit easier? You know, like, I think that the thing that's cool about thinking about defense is all the bullshit that coaches say actually sometimes is true, where it's like this idea that it's these links in a chain and you could have an incredible defensive stopper,

but if two other guys aren't playing hard or if two other guys are thinking about like getting into transition and leaking instead of like making sure they've got their guys, guys, it doesn't really work. And I wonder whether or not, you know, I think that those Timberwolves teams, not to harp on them, but like, that was a really interesting. You see Tibido has the Knicks as a top 10 defense right now. I think arguably he had more talent on that Wolf's team, is certainly with Jimmy Butler.

And those guys did play well. But when you watch, like, this DeLo cat version of the Timberwolves right now, I don't know who there, like, who there is, like, helping them improve the way, like, DeAndre Aten is being helped to improve on the sons. I'm not sure they have that. But then again, you could say that Kat had KG at one point in Minnesota. He had Tibbs and with Charlie Butler, yeah, right. Yeah, and Jimmy Butler and all these guys that feel like perfect mentors for a player to take on that attitude, you know,

and install it with themselves. And with Kat, it's the type of thing where he was, when he came out of college, people thought he's going to be a lockdown defender with questions on offense. and it's been the total opposite where he is a brilliant offensive score for a center, one of the best shooters in the league period, regardless of position.

And defense, it's a major question mark. And with him, I still think there's a chance Carl Anthony Towns can pan out and be a very good defensive player with his mobility and size. It really might be a matter

of having the right supporting cast around him at the right moment in his career when he's ready, you know, in terms of a mental, standpoint to process all that information and from a physical and conditioning standpoint to be able to withstand a heavy

offensive load and anchor or defense could be the right system too for that matter and what they have right now in Minnesota just feels like a really you know iffy mix which is a shame because all those names on paper Carl Anthony Towns DeAngelo Russell I think Culver projected as a good defender right?

Yeah Culver too yeah Culver too give me so give me one team that you think I should be watching from this prison through this prism of like as a good defensive team like who's like must see tv but on defense Cleveland I think Cleveland's got a roster full of just guys like Houston just play really really really hard larry nance i think he believe he's still leading the league and steals right now so active on the ball off the ball you can constantly like if you it's like we talked about at the

top if you spotlight larry nance you constantly see him being aware of what's happening around him And when it comes to like scouting the draft and I'm like really going deep on a guy, that's what I do? Like, what is this guy looking at in this situation? You know, do you take note of what play the offense is running and you know what they're doing?

Well, what is the defender seeing in the situation? And if it's a complex action and they screw it up, that can be, you know, an issue for his NBA, you know, hopes considering they're going to be facing a lot of those types of actions.

And with Larry Nance, you know, he has grown into, you know, a guy who is, you know, a center when he entered the league, is this versatile, switchable wing defender,

which is due to work ethic off the court, but also just focus and effort on the court to overcome any limitations he might have physically after tearing his ACL in college. Yeah, he seems to have really taken a leap this season. I was wondering whether or not you felt like, and I talked with Roger a little bit about this, but I was curious to get your thoughts on it.

The way the NBA offenses are essentially, at any given point, can play a big off of the court. We saw that with Abaka in the Clippers Nets game. And that was unique, but it was still, like, notable that Abaka was, like, unplayable down the stretch because they were running Jeff Green out there at center. Should they have gone back to Ibaka? Did Rajah next minute? If they get another shot at that, I would be curious to see what Tylood did.

But do you think that part of, like, the issues facing certain teams' defenses is the fact that these offenses are so progressive in a lot of ways, that they are, you do have four wings out there shooting early in the shot clock at the drop of a hat. Whereas like maybe these guys were like, I'm used to inside, outside play. And I'm used to like knowing that like, I would have to imagine. I mean, like this has even been asked of Tibbs because his defenses were built to, you know, funnel guys. And like, how do you funnel a guy if there's not even that much driving going on? I think when it comes to Biggs, you know, like the case of Ibaka, you need to,

They need to at least be able to survive on the perimeter. On an island, if you're on an isolation against Damien, the Lord, you at least need to be able to stay in front of that guy and contain him and force him into a tougher shot. It's the type of thing where, you know, in the playoffs, you're switching so many screens and tough games, close games are switching so many screens. You're inevitably going to have a big in that situation.

We saw in a recent game between the Suns and the Mavericks, again to mention DeAndre Aiton, There were four or five instances throughout the game that he defended Luca one-on-one, and he did a really, really good job just making it tough on Luca. There were a couple instances Luca scored, but he made it really tough on him. And I think when it comes to playing a big off the court or not, it's those guys that have the ability to at least survive where the pros of them offering size and rebounding and room protection and help defense around the rim all outweighs any potential

negatives. And, you know, it's sort of as like, remember years ago with the Jazz and Warriors when Rudy Gobert was coming off the injury and he got played off the court and or struggled and that kind of hurt his reputation. But he's coming off an injury. I think he's also had a lot of great instances in those same scenarios where he's, where he's defending like a shot making guard or wing. And he's done a serviceable job, which is all you can ask for from a big in that type of situation. So I think it's really about just meeting that minimum level of being able to survive on a switch. You know, you talked a little bit about some of the proprietary data and these teams have based on second spectrum numbers.

And I was wondering whether or not there was a particular metric you, when you're doing your writing, look at to kind of evaluate where a guy is defensively. I'll occasionally pull up box plus minus or, you know, the RPMs and those single number stats just to get a feel for what those data points are saying. But, I mean, I'll be honest with you, Chris. Like, ultimately, I haven't found a ton of value in defense. of data. I mean, I know earlier in the season, like the new 538 stat,

Isaac Okoro, with the Cavs, was ranked near the bottom of the league and their defensive stats. It's a small sample, so it's forgivable. But it's like there's certain little outliers like that where it's like, I have, and this is through conversations of the people in the league too, where they're like, well, there's something missing in the data

that it can't read. You know, if it's having these guys rank way higher than they should be or way lower than they should be. And I feel like with defense, so much of it needs to be, the context is so significant with what happens on the court on the defensive end, then I wonder if there's a way to have a more process-oriented data point on defense. Well, this is what I was going to throw at you is I wonder whether this already exists in some secret computer, you know, in Bob Myers' office or something like that.

Or Darrell Morris. Or Darrell Morris office. But is there a strength of assignment metric where you're essentially judging a guy's performance based on the level of player that he takes? takes on. Do you know what I mean? Like, essentially, if you're asking a guy to go guard Durant or go guard Damien Lillard or Paul George every night or somebody, like, that's going to be a tough assignment. Like, you're going to see a lot, he's going to see a lot of the ball, and you're going to hope to get out of there without too much bleeding. Whereas, like, if you're somebody and you're just essentially guarding, like, Devante Graham all night, like, you may have a good night or a bad night, but, like, that's certainly not going to be as much of a stressor as it would be if you're guarding like an all-NBA offensive player.

Definitely. I mean, that is one stat I do find useful because it is process-oriented because you're thinking about who were they defending? Who is the defense asking them to defend? Is there a way to tell that? Do they say like, yeah, okay. So, B-ballindex.com has a great stat that I've used in a handful of stuff we've done at the ringer.

And they, you know, derive that stat from the NBA.com, NBA advanced stats, tracking data, matchup data. And so they're able to create like a aggregate, data point of which players are defending all stars most often or all NBA players most often or high usage players, you know, like a Russell Westbrook, a Chris Paul, guys who have the ball in their hands a lot, they're able to put that together. And, you know, it's guys like Ben Simmons who ranked near the top of the league. It's guys like McKell Bridges, who you mentioned earlier. It's even someone like Evan Forney. Interesting. For Orlando Magic. And it shows like,

that doesn't mean that he's a great defender. It just means he's being asked to defend those players a lot, which probably speaks to some Orlando's issues this season. They're not very good. Yeah, is there anybody who you fear is moving into the hardened zone where their defensive lapses are going to make them viral? I mean, Zion recently, even though this most recent game last night or Wednesday night, he was quite good defensively in comparison. Yeah, both of them.

They really locked in. And there's been those, you know, reports coming out of, you know, the Pelicans post-game press conferences and everything. Van Gundy's saying he's talking to these guys all the time. He's having meetings with Ingram and Williamson. And that's like the other factor there is what coaching are you receiving? Like you said, Nature versus Nurture, they're in a situation where they're being held accountable. Sure. And being told Zion, if you're not defending, you're not going to finish games. You got to play hard to finish games. And we're seeing that. But ultimately, like, before Wednesday night, I would have said Zion, no question asked, because he seemed like he was

going to have at least one of those moments where it's like, really, you're not contesting that shot? And he's already had a couple of them. It's just too early in the season for those moments to be big enough to go viral. But Zion is a guy who comes to mind, but he's getting better. And we'll see if it continues. Last question. Is Hardin out of the Hardin zone? 100%. Yes. The best post defender in the league, right? Chris? You see that possession versus Kauai? That was amazing. Kauai was blowing through everybody. And then Hardin just brick walls he's got the

low center of gravity I'll give him that Kevin thank you so much for joining me then thank you so much Chris